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Guest Post: The Wisdom of Thucydides
Submitted by gojam of The Needle blog,
Thucydides was probably born about 460BC and was for a time a General on the side of democratic Athens against aristocratic Sparta in what is known as the Peloponnesian War in which most of Greece took a side. After being exiled he wrote his famous history. The passage that I’ve quoted in full below is, in my opinion, one of the finest passages of classical antiquity. I was somewhat surprised not to be able to find it elsewhere quoted online. It descibes the breakdown of civil society and in doing so it perfectly describes every civil war and revolution that has taken place in the almost two and half thousands years since it was written including the English Civil War, French Revolution, American Civil War, Russian Revolution, and Spanish Civil War. Human nature, it seems is immutable.
I bring it to attention in the vain hope that those who have blindly pursued the policies which have brought Greece to the brink and risks plunging the whole of Europe into the abyss, might consider more keenly the consequences of their actions and change course before it’s too late.
“So revolutions broke out in city after city, and in places where the revolutions occured late the knowledge of what had happened previously in other places caused still new extravagances of revolutionary zeal, expressed by an elaboration in the methods of seizing power and by unheard-of atrocities in revenge. To fit in with the change of events, words, too, had to change their meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one might expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted and anyone who objected to them became suspect. To plot successfully was a sign intelligence, but it was still cleverer to see that a plot was hatching. If one attempted to provide against having to do either, one was disrupting the unity of the party and acting out of fear of the opposition. In short, it was equally praiseworthy to get one’s blow in first against someone who was going to do wrong, and to denounce someone who had no intention of doing any wrong at all. Family relations were a weaker tie than party membership, since party members were more ready to go to any extreme for any reason whatever. These parties were not formed to enjoy the benefits of established laws, but to aquire power by overthrowing the existing regime; and the members of these parties felt confidence in each other not because of any fellowship in a religious communion, but because they were partners in crime. If an opponent made a reasonable speech, the party in power, so far from giving it a generous reception, took every precaution to see that it had no practical effect.
Revenge was more important than self-preservation, And if pacts of mutual security were made, they were entered into by the two parties only in order to meet some temporary difficulty, and remained in force only so long as there was no other weapon available. When the chance came, the one who seized it boldly, catching the enemy off his guard, enjoyed a revenge that was all the sweeter from having taken, not openly, but because of a breach of faith. It was safer that way, it was considered, and at the same time a victory won by treachery gave one a title for superior intelligence. And indeed most people are more ready to call villainy cleverness than simple-mindedness honesty. They are proud of the first quality and ashamed of the second.
Love of power, operating through greed and through personal ambition, was the cause of all these evils. To this must be added violent fanaticism which came into play once the struggle had broken out. Leaders of parties in the cities had programmes which appeared admirable – on one side political equality for the masses, on the other the safe and sound government of the aristocracy – but in professing to serve the public interest they were seeking to win the prizes for themselves. In their struggle for ascendancy nothing was barred; terrible indeed were the actions to which they committed themselves, and in taking revenge they went farther still. Here they were deterred neither by claims of justice nor by the interests of the state; their one standard was the pleasure of their own party at that particular moment, and so, either by means of condemning their enemies on an illegal vote or by violently usurping power over them, they were always ready to satisfy the hatreds of the hour. Thus neither side had any use for conscientious motives; more interest was shown in those who could produce attractive arguments to justify some disgraceful action. As for the citizens who held moderate views, they were destroyed by both extreme parties, either for not taking part in the struggle or in envy at the possibility that they might survive.
As the result of these revolutions, there was a general deterioration of character throughout the Greek world. The simple way of looking at things, which is so much the mark of a noble nature, was regarded as a ridiculous quality and soon ceased to exist. Society had become divided into two ideologically hostile camps, and each side viewed the other with suspicion. As for ending this state off affairs, no guarentee could be given that would be trusted, no oath sworn that people would fear to break; everyone had come to the conclusion that it was hopeless to expect a permanent settlement and so, instead of being able to feel confident in others, they devoted their energies to providing against being injured themselves. As a rule those who were the least remarkable for intelligence showed the greater powers of survival. Such people recognised their own deficiencies and the superior intelligence of their opponents; fearing that they might lose a debate or find themselves out-manoeuvred in intrigue by their quick-witted enemies, they boldly launched straight into action; while their opponents, overconfident in the belief that they would see what was happening in advance, and not thinking it necessary to seize by force what they could secure by policy, were the more easily destroyed because they were off guard.
Certainly it was in Corcyra that there occured the first examples of the breakdown of law and order. There was the revenge taken in their hour of triumph by those who had in the past been arrogantly oppressed instead of wisely governed; there were the wicked resolutions taken by those who, particularly under the pressure of misfortune, wished to escape from their usual poverty and coveted the property of their neighbours; there were the savage and pitiless actions into which men were carried not so much for the sake of gain as because they were swept away into internecine struggle by their ungovernable passions. Then, with the ordinary conventions of civilised life thrown into confusion, human nature, always ready to offend even where laws exist, showed itself proudly in its true colours, as something incapable of controlling passion, insubordinate to the idea of justice, the enemy to anything superior to itself; for, if it had not been for the pernicious powers of envy, men would not so have exalted vengeance above innocence and profit above justice. Indeed, it is true that in these acts of revenge on others men take it upon themselves to begin the process of repealing those general laws of humanity which are there to give a hope of salvation to all who are in distress, instead of leaving those laws in existence, remembering that there may be a time when they, too, will be in danger and will need their protection.”
This. Is. TROIKA!!
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Great article.Those who fail to learn from history.......
The hubris always, always says "this time is different".
But, of course, it isn't.
Nice read on this subject can be found in "A War Like No Other" by Victor Davis Hanson.
What if we threw a war and nobody came?
Send in the drones
" Release the Kraken!! "
The guys who supply the gear of war would come, and come hard, even if no boots ever hit the ground.
Sorry, was that come - or cum.
They can do that. It's called nucelar war.
So much for "this time, it really is different!"
California gonna get its' ass kicked.
california's ass? where is that?
you talking about san diego?
After 2500 years it remains clear that whilst we have advanced in technological terms, the reality remains that as human beings we are the same bastards we have always been. The same weaknesses, the same faults and the same vices.
Change unfortunately does not happen in groups. It first begins by a single individual changing for the better and in the process inspiring another human being to also change.
Unfortunately the role models in politics, entertainment and business fall far short of the inspiring and thus we are left with nothing on the public stage to consider.
It is only when war has savaged us that some of the survivors will reflect on the insanity of the process but by then it will be too late for those that died and for the relationships that were destroyed.
Divide et impera
THe devolutionary potential of the human entity is characterized as mammals (body and emotions) with a thinking brain (recent) loosly affixed. People completely understate how the unregenerate, self serving, emotions honed by millions of years of evolution, coursing in the body, largely define socialized human behaviour. Here logic is merely slave to sentiment, which acts, leads, initiates, much faster than literated thinking ever can.
Yeh, kinda like trading against the HFT'ers.
There's a reason why the classics have been dropped from the curriculum.
The reason Sparta became weak and ultimately lost its power is not mentioned above - concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands until there was little or no participation by most of its citizens in the affairs the state. Why bother when you're not included? The wealthy elites made the decisions and most of those decisions involved developing more efficient methods of accumulating wealth. Sound familiar?
If that's true- and I assume it is- it would make a hell of of lot of sense. Could that be a sign of a nation in decline? Good thought.
Well, they don't call us helots, yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helots
You sure about that...?
Not to your face perhaps.
Or perhaps they just have a new code word for it.
I believe the neo term is "Muppets".
Bullshit.....you speak hypocrisy.....the "so called" wealthy elites are just an illusion of one's limited (and indoctrinated) self-confidence.
"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off" (Tyler Durden~Fight Club)
This is a misrepresentation of history and not connected to reality. Trying to recast Sparta's decline in these terms is entirely ahistorical, this sounds like some blather cooked up at a Univeristy in California.
Spartan power ended because they were defeated by Thebes, who not only beat them in battle but freed the Messenian helots. Thebes had a great general who beat the Spartans at their own game and also completely destroyed the engine of the Spartan economy- the helots which provided the food while Spartans themselves spent a lifetime training as warriors.
The Spartan warrior didnt somehow start pouting because they felt excluded- they were what they always had been. Unless of course you are trying to argue that the helots were somehow Spartans, which is also entirely untrue. The helots didnt stop participating- they never did in the first place. A helot was never a Spartan citizen. They did not rebel against Spartan power, they were freed by an entirely outside force from the other side of Greece. Once there was nobody to provide the food and supplies for the phalanx anymore, Spartan power crumbled. Though there were still some helots after the Theban victory and loss of hegemony over Messenia, there were not nearly enough to maintain the same force the Sparta could field before that and they became a minor local power that never again regained its former glory.
Your claim has no connection to historical reality whatsoever, unless you have some evidence that Spartan hoplites gave up fighting because they felt excluded I have never seen (or probably anyone else has ever seen).
Feel free to put it up if you have it.
Understood - they were defeated fair and square on the battlefield; yet that is simply a tactical result of a larger strategic weakness and process which had been in place much longer than a series of battles. The rot had set in for a few generations by the time Sparta's actual fall took place. A comparable situation exists in the United States - How many citizens are breaking down the doors to the military recruiting offices? How many citizens are willing to forego personal enrichments (even for a moment) in order to work and sacrifice to make the USA a better place to live? Tried petitioning your congressman with a grievance? Yeah, right. They've become so sensitive to the problems facing us, their constituents. Regardless of what you claim, this is a war of the wealthy elites against the rest of us and they are winning. If the income disparities grow any larger we shall have nothing, nothing left.
And what of Athens?
I once read a quick summary of his History: "One grim book." Here's how Bertrand Russell summed it up (in Understanding History, p. 20, 1957):
"There is a presentation, full of epic grandeur, of the spectacle of men driven by destiny into folly, choosing wrongly over and over again when the right choice would have brought victory, becoming wicked through exasperation, and falling at last into irretrievable ruin.
"The theme is one that appealed to the Greek mind. A great impersonal Power, called indifferently Fate or Justice or Necessity, ruled the world, and was superior to the gods. Whatever person or country or thing over-stepped the ordained boundaries, suffered the punishment of pride.
"This was the real religion of the Greeks, and Thucydides in his history magnificently illustrated it."
Indeed it will be the same theme all over ago, despite the fact there is near unanimous consensus on what we don't want and what is wrong ... there is no majority consensus on what we do want, need and will do when the opportunity presents itself?
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php
this is the posting of high capable ex-leader of greek army rtd(and ex-commando)
FRANGOS FRANGULIS AS THE INTERIM DEFENCE MINISTER.
WE MAY BE BROKE ,BUT DONT ANYONE TRIES TO STEP ON US..THE MESSAGE IS SENT
A RELEVANT MESSAGE WAS SENT BY THE HAF POSTING AN OUT OF THE BLUE EXERSICE ON DEFENDING AN ISLAND IN AEGEAN SEA.
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php
Daggerwolf22, the biggest enemies of Greece are outside its borders but its most dangerous enemies are inside its own borders and amongst its own people. The 300 Spartans were betrayed by a shepherd, Kolokotronis the hero of 21 was nearly hung by his own people, other heroes were simply given permission to beg for alms at particular street corners.
Your enemies today are your politicians, your bankers, and your elite who always believed and acted as if only money mattered and that money could achieve everything. Also many of your people who continued to collect the pensions of deceased parents, grandparents etc.
The proof that Greece cannot even identify its enemies is the fact that it has only jailed (temporarily) one politician for accepting bribes (Tsochatzopoulos) in connection with large national contracts with Germany. I doubt he will be found guilty in the end because of his threats to spill the beans.
My apologies. I just remembered that they also jailed an abbot recently but released him just in time for Easter.
A whole nation must think and act like Frangos Frangoulis otherwise you are deluding yourselves into thinking that one man can save you and protect you.
indeed you are bang on target,in every aspect of greece we should be and act as frangulis
(just to remind you frangulis had the idea and constructed the evros anti tank barrier)
in fact things are happening now the old political regime just needs one push more BUTwe must sent a clear message that we will be a state of law of dialogue with in our international affairs.let me explain i think the political future in greece should unwind like this new democracy party fades and goes to center=independent greks while pasok party fades and goes to syriza=left
crucial thing is while polls favour syriza they SHOULD not choose this party which is basically a coalition of leftist,ecology and more significant maoists and trcky followers plys an ex sociaist part
the people SHOULD choose independent greekswhich ar pro europe but belog mainly to the center.they may prove tougher on negotiations (we have high concern about our international affairs ) but surely will be a far better negotiators for europeans than syriza
what would you think europeans would prefer? a chaves -like nagotiator or tougher but more look alike politician like europeans?(ther is not at my knowledge a moist-trocky party ruling ANY european state...)
so why did greek people chose syriza in tyhe first place? surelly they r not pro-communists (12% was the previus overall%)....THEY WERE AND ARE ANGRY...
WE AS INDEPENDANT GREEKS HAVE 2 SIDED TO WAR TO FULFIL...WITHSTAND NEW DEMOCRACY PARTY REVIVAL AND ALSO HALT SYRIZA RISE...WE HOPE (FOR THE SAKE OF ALL) WELL MANAGE THAT IN NEW ELECTIONS
...Ohh...
Thanks for that.
Good to know what we SHOULD be doing.
Never could have figured it out without your help...
But the excellent description starts in the middle of civil war processs. How it came to be this way? I lived trough a civil war in ex-Yu and it was the same process as in the US where i lived too. In time of prosperity people become complacent with politics preocupied with their own life and enjoyment, overtaken by greed trough envy of everpresent richness that surounds them. Opportunity they call it. Politicians are just men too, they will be taken by greed considering opportunities for politicians are much greater then for others. While nobody is looking.
Democracy demands constant work. It is not something that you get and you will keep it for granted. Prosperity is same.
In such time of prospeirty, the party in power will think about private acheivement only, just as Thucidides described. When crisis comes due to negligence in governing, guilty party will practice "divide and conquer" trough blaming powerless groups of causing the crisis, blaming the other party as guilty party as it is the only way to keep the power. They are strong due to just being in power and amassing the wealth and connections and usurping media chanels for advocating their side. They are partners in crime, just as Thucidides described it, which gives them a strong motivation to fight desperately.
This describes also Gilded Age, Yugoslavia 1975-1984 just as US 1994-2007
Thucydides: yet another reason to dig this site.
When civilized society is debased by the leaders in government and commerce who purport to extol it - violent collapse becomes requisite or at the least inevitable.
Equivocating, unethical, and amoral Sophists ruined ancient democracies and societies - and they are back with a vengeance in Wall Street and Washington. Moral Hazard.
You pack more wisdom into 50 words...thanks for the post.
I was thinking about "the market is long gamma".
I think it means that in aggregate the market is expecting a convex payoff. So there are different strategies and there is a balance in the price but each side is expecting a convex payout. Convex payoffs appeal to both our fear and greed in equal measure. So Hendry is saying that the market is fearful and greedy. I would say that a long gamma market is a whimp and can be pushed around. The bankers have stepped up to fill the void.
The concave traders who average on the way down because they believe in value; they have balls. That's the start of a bull market when this attitude dominates the market. Then over time fear and greed raise their heads and the market gets longer gamma. And this escalation can be magnified, for the opposing strategies keep price in line for a while, while ramping up their convexity using leverage with dynamic trading. Then the market is pushed around and the market loses its power, because leveraged positions have a huge weakness. You can't sit. So when Jessee Livermore said it is important to be right and sit-tight, he meant not to go convex. Leverage and you can't sit-tight.
This bull market hasn't finished yet, everyone has gone to the convex side of the force. I've never seen a bear market, and I don't think you have?
The BIG wave is up. The highest level Elliottwave is God and that wave is a one. :-)
You are thinking too much; except about Thucydides.
He is not thinking enough.
Unfortunately Jesse Livermore went broke staying convex (long).
Without struggle, man is without definition.
We've been lulled into complacency and America's heart won't be regained without first learning what it means to live without a pulse.
Pass the dice please, I'm ready to roll again.
Here you can read a great series of posts that combine the ancient Greek knowledge with the modern socio-economic aspects:
Global Debt Crisis
http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/01/global-debt-crisis.html
World War III - The First Private War in History
http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/02/world-war-iii.html
GERMANY, the DISGRACE of Europe
http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/02/germany-disgrace-of-europe.html
From the Wall Street Crash of 1929 to the Global Financial Crisis of 2007
www.eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2010/02/ten-plagues-of-pharaoh.html
.
hmmm and I though this was about the Eu, i mean the Uk i mean the US.....thanks god we all have the rule of law, habius corpus....oh wait.
Anyone got a ticket out of here, Switzerland, New Zealand or Iceland pehaps?
There is no ticket out...........simply preparing for the inevitable outfall.
A most welcome read this morning. I couldn't help but draw the parrellels, not to Greece, but to the corporate culture within most of the western world, and my specific industry. Reminded me of a conversation amongst colleagues re: the almost manical level of self love which is required to come into a leadership position within the industry nowadays, and I suppose our society at large.
'This is TRoika'... You might add this is Pax Americana. As the TRoika ACTS to protect the interests of PAX Americana global banking in its financialised runaway madness. When the Europeans realise they are just feeding the pierced barrel of Pax Americana banking scam, their rage will find its true enemy. The adversary of the European people's dilemma is Hegemony of kleptocratic banking and industrial-political Oligarchy support of WS/CIty, its core clients.
In the perspective of Thucydides's times, it was the consequences of Athenian hegemony of Delian League that led to the demise of Greece. So when Thucydides talks about the ravages of the breakdown of Athenian power and values, the rise of populist rage and anarchy plague, he talks of the symptoms resulting from the malaise of the demise of Athenian power. He does not address the CORE cause of that demise : Athenian Hegemony, hubris of its ruling class that considered itself "uber-alles" and treated the Melians as the underclass, killing all their males to make an example, "who didn't get what we are trying to achieve"...does that ring a bell? Hint, hint ...2003 IRAK....What you sow you then reap. Socrates said that so lucidly to contradict the 'natural justice' thesis of Thucydides with his own rhetoric on 'social justice' being same for both victors and vanquished. His legacy lives on and has fed the humanist trend of western civilization. Today, this current crisis highlights the huge divide between the "VALUE" systems we try and defend in western civilization and the very ACTS of the elites. Are we just a "commercial empire" selling junk, or a humanist civilization defending human values, which are superior to the logic of King greenback and the biggest bang for your buck, whether you be selling CDO/CDSs, ARMS, white powder or commercial pornucopia and consequently peddling human debasement and servitude to the 99%?
That is the core issue facing western civilization. Thucydides provided NO ANSWER to that human conundrum. He just documented it and showed in his remarkable and UNIQUE analysis his own penchant for 'might is right' in his writings that would subsequently define what historical analysis IS.
THose who would change western civilization profoundly were Plato and Aristotle as they used the Socrates example to create value systems that have irrigated three thousand years of our history; lets not lose it for the short term hubris and lust of King greenback cabalists, who would bring down the whole of modern society.
If you read the war history, you shall find out one very simple thing. There is no conquest without colonists. Since Babylon and Rome years, this is a main fact for the conquest. The most powerful of the conquerors gain the greatest part when they decide to share the conquest and the poorest comrades take some part of it whether they are soldiers or poor people who are moving from the conquerors’ country. This is totally reasonable. Some generals cannot conquer a vast area and be able to survive as feudal lords in an incredibly hostile area among their victims. Reaction is a matter of time threatening them with death. This is why they move some population giving benefits in order to obtain safety. A population that may not have equally “intense” interests but is totally “aligned” with them.
Since the Jews “conquered” the Planet, it is reasonable that they would have the same needs. It doesn’t matter how one conquers a place; what really matters is to stay in this place by keeping the “loot”. When one conquers a place against its people using either guns or guile, it is a sure thing that this person needs protection in order to coexist with his/her victims. In the first great need for survival these victims shall turn against this person for sure. This was a problem that Jews had to solve and its solution was pivotal for them.
http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/02/world-war-iii.html
What did they do? They used again their main "gun"; Money. The over-loaning they tried caused a "turbulence" of human populations of an unbelievable size. This was one of their pursuits because they thought that this way they would obtain control “levers” against their victims. The national interests of their peoples were threatening them and they tried to break them down. National homogeneity of every country made them visible and they –like thieves of a particular nationality- wanted to remain invisible. This means that they wished to mix the population “cards”, to ensure their defense. They wanted to make societies “multi-cultural” and “multinational” so that they could survive in them without provoking their victims.
Excellent post. And thanks for reminding us of the Melians. When I used to teach Thucydides, I would invite students to contrast the nobility of Pericles' "Funeral Oration" with the grim brutality of the Athenian delegation to the Melians in the "Melian Dialogue".
The Melians just wanted to be left alone--to remain neutral--yet the Athenians (like the US/UK/Israel troika today) would not permit this.
The contrast of noble-sounding rhetoric with foul policy and evil deeds is a constant in history. Check Lincoln's "Gettysburg Address" and contrast it with his actions in imposing conquest on the South.
Yeah, when you start a shooting war and then lose, it is such a shame that the victorious side won't let you get away with an, "I'm sorry."
Will we divide into races/religions/sects/genders/sexual preferences/haves/have nots/(insert charged label here) and proceed to beat the shit out of each other?
Or will we put our egos aside and find really creative ways to work together in honest industry, in honest commerce?
The Second American Revolution - coming soon to a neighborhood near you.
Interesting question. My first thought is division will occur at the basest level of race/religion/tribe. It's possible though that such bonds may not be as solid here as abroad, and therefore the initial division could emerge along haves/have nots.
I suppose if I had to choose a preference (how bizzarre is it to think along those lines), I would prefer some sort of division by political alignment. In other words, I would feel more at ease in the company of like-minded conservative constitutionalist libertarians. Unfortunately, the reality is that the zeal of multi-culturalism has ensured that such a group will not be as ethnically diverse as one would hope.
In anthropology it was interesting/instructive to see how humans often created their cultures around food and food sources. We are a long way from that now, but it's instructive to remember how important filling an empty belly trumps all sorts of cultural bull shit/drama/distractions that pass as community today. Look to the food providers to be setting the early cultural "tone" in new social structures that are emerging from the wreckage.
Food sources may trump politcal comfort zones.
Indeed. He who controls the food and water will dictate the framework of whatever 'new normal' emerges. Unfortunately, it seems the very same players who engineered the ongoing collapse....are the ones positioning themselves as controllers of those resources.
Between Monsanto and their ilk taking over the farming industry, to globalists like T. Boone Pickens buying up massive amounts of known underground water reserves....the future looks a bit grim. I certainly dread to think what sort of cultural/political construct those two entities will dream up.
Me too. Control of water will be hard to beat, but armed populus uprisings and the internet (if we are lucky) will make things very difficult for the globalists.
Unfortunately, it is not a question of "will we divide" so much as "will we recognize" the actual ethnic conflict going on...
Black on white crime amounts to a race war, but the media, run by the Masters of Discourse, always makes it sound the opposite.
Similarly, the virtually omnipotent Jews have successfully managed to make themselves seem innocent victims.
You can't dispense with ego--it is point of view. One can gain some objectivity and humor about it, but it cannot be eliminated.
I don't think ethnic and race divisions will be the critical divide in the U.S. There are too many good hearted, smart people of many races, and the ability to see that in our powerful medias.
My guess is that religion will be the toughest nut to crack open. I consider "Free Masons" a religion, though they pretend to be agnostic.
I see before me the phrase:
"This has all happened before, and this will all happen again."
I've heard this on 'Seek 200' by Information Society (on 'HACK', 1990) -- which was a direct sample of the first line of Disney's Peter Pan (1953). Interestingly, this line has been cited as the inspiration behind the same theme in the most recent Battlestar Galactica series (2004).
Prescient. Uncanny..
Intelligence becomes a sin. Because, isn't it "intelligence," i.e those with the "brightest minds" who, employed by the rich, used (abused?) their power to usurp power and wealth from everyone else? Who used their "intelligence" to speak "fine" words but ended up conning everyone into poverty? Intelligence becomes, at best, suspect, at worst a crime. Happened in 460BC, also in 1960's leading up to the Chinese "cultural revolution."
When talking shop takes too long, people are starving and all they want is action, humans have no usual considerations, like patience and hence take measures which look extreme.
The one thing I fear the most about all of what is going on these days, is that them that trully deserve what is coming our way, wont get it. Its always the little man that pays the piper when the vested interest fucks up.
Maybe, just maybe I could be wrong, but as others have said, history has a fucking nasty habit of repeating itself.
As for me and others who woke up whenever, I wont forget who and how they fucked me over. I'm a Brit speaking here, and I'm not mad as hell, I am down right fucking seething. There are some good folks on these boards, some damn fine minds here as well and I wish you all the best whatever comes our way. But the others, and you know who you are, you were warned, but enough is sometimes never enough is it?
Prepare accordingly.
Fuck the GOP. We're coming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAedphqfm7k
It's being a while since I've been saying to my students, colleagues, friends and family that the only way to get out of History's "corsi e ricorsi" is to climbe towards a further step on civilization, which we're far to achieve yet. The rest it's already been written over and over for thousands of years. It seems we humans can't do it. Perhaps our roof it's been reached long ago, can't see anything promising ahead.
Once we have our next civiization clean out the first rule I would implement is to ban all sociopaths / psychopaths from holding any government or company executive position.
I bet any money you like that most of the worst decisions made in on behalf of all our futures was made by one of these assholes.
Chainsaw Al is a perfect example - fucked over the lives of so many Americans on behalf of Sunbeam, let alone the massive financial fraud he undertook. And the guy lives in his mansion with floor to cieling high paintings of himself - if that aint a sociopath I do not know what is and these are the people that destroy society from the inside.
At the same time, these are precisely the people who will manage to escape with their balls in tact to some island while Rome burns, hopefully i will find out where it is so I can send them a present.
Sounds like he's describing the tea baggers.
Sounds like he is describing you doogie.
There will be hell to pay when the public wakes up joins in. It will probably happen when they can't afford to eat. The government will probably cause scarcity by putting farmers out of business with pricing manipulations, making the problem more real than just high prices.
@.. " Thus neither side had any use for conscientious motives; more interest was shown in those who could produce attractive arguments to justify some disgraceful action. As for the citizens who held moderate views, they were destroyed by both extreme parties, either for not taking part in the struggle or in envy at the possibility that they might survive."
this quote and entire piece pretty well sums up the mentality
of the modern day market maker. what has been called a form
of government, democracy or representative democracy that is
like a constant state of revolution. or as was called, page 20
of the pdf, like the mob, what people think when the owners
are the mob.
http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Plaintiffs%20Opp%20t...
see page 20. marc cohodes testimony.
Accidentally Released - and Incredibly Embarrassing - Documents Show How Goldman et al Engaged in 'Naked Short Selling'
POSTED: May 15, 5:39 PM ET
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/accidentally-release...
.
Sparta. I can remember the neocons drooling over that society, and having some vain hope of moving the US towards that. Unfortunately being a helot doesn't hold out much for me.
there is nothing new under the sun. future generations simply re-live what past generations lived through....many times over. the nature of human action has not changed much in 7,000 years of recorded history. we think we are so advanced, so modern, so above the "barbarians" of the past. we're just like them, but with iphones and internet.
i didn't learn that until my mid 20's, it was an eye opening realization, but then it made me feel better in some strange way.
So the cycle continues. Off with their heads! Then everything gets better. Then people get complacent. Then the sociopaths get in charge again.
I want the entire EU to fail, regardless of consequence. It's just a building block for the elite. The US/canada/mexico union won't go over so well when everyone sees the EU burning. I would much rather go thru dire times than give the elite what they want. Problem now is the elite have special secret weapons to wipe us out when we come knocking. Could get interesting.
BTW.......why are they holding that G8 in Chicago other than it's Obamas hometown? I'll tell you why.........it's just their way of saying they'll do whatever they want.
if there ever was a time to stay out of the way
yada yada yada and the 2012 minnions go eat their cheese doodles.
On most people's Top 10 list of who they are concerned about, they have themselves 1-9 and tied for 10. Same as it ever was...
this obese, brain washed, limp wristed society is anything but spartan.
That sounds like the 1st Bush term...
It's an interesting dynamic that happens when normal contracts are broken. Welcome to the post-Christian era much like the pre-Christian era.
This is in the culmination or climax of the time we are in, when all must be killed who kill-- it must happen. Just like he who tries to commit suicide "in those days" will not be able to do it for some reason unexplained in the text (9:6).
I'm so old that The History of The Peloponnesian War was required reading in college. It bugs me to read the first comments which were of the type, "Huh? Who's this? Wha'?"
The Greek God of Nards Testiclees was the mightiest of all naked Greek Gods.
He's describing Communism.