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Has Juncker Gone Insane? Eurogroup Head Says German Debt Levels "Cause For Concern"
And so Europe bites the hand that feeds it:
- EU's Juncker says that German debt level is a cause for concern according to a German newspaper - RTRS
- EU's Juncker says Germany has higher debts than Spain but 'no-one wants to know about that' - RTRS
What could have possessed this pathetic bureaucrat to criticize the only strong country in Europe is beyond imagination: if this is how he hopes to get Germany nervous about its debt levels and agree to monetizing, he is about to get a pretty brutal lesson in what it means to serve Le Bic Mac at 3:15 am on Luxembourg Strasse. Needless to say the Euro is not happy. We anticipate an immediate retraction saying his words were taken out of context as this is noting short of all out war between the EU and Germany.
As for who is most screwed when adding up all the debt, not just government, here is why Juncker may want to keep his mouth shut.
Source: Of Two Minds
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80% + according to Kyle Bass
Germany has a responsibility to the rest of Europe to keep their books in order so that they are able to fund further rescue packages for unfortunate countries like Greece and Italy. Germany needs to step up to the plate and help out because with great wealth comes great responsibility. Financial equity investors all over the world are counting on them to do the right thing.
MDB, when read against the grain, your posts are as funny as a good Banzai. You should apply for a job as a government economic advisor.
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Read more: How to Rescue a Drowning Person | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_9074_rescue-drowning-person.html#ixzz1dt6E85HW
Ok, I'll ask it. Why does no one ever say anything about UK debt/gdp ratio?
Either its currency is ridiculously overvalued, or it will be in austerity mode for a decade which means bye-bye growth, or its banks have very large questionable assets. They may even be about to start yet another QE program!
They are AAA rated. London = The Mecca of Banksters criminals. UK has always been like that fish that attaches itself to the shark, the shark being the US of course.
Whenever a banker commits a crime somewhere, he first finds asylum in London then disappears...
Even since Britain(or at least is't economy part) has been taken over by the Rothschilds
The UK's sovereign to private debt ratio is interesting for another reason too; should the UK decide to go the whole hog and nationalize the ENTIRE retail banking market (don't forget that a huge % of the UK mortgage 'market' is already technically under state control), taking possession of all the private debt and concommitant 'income producing assests' in the process, this would provide them with more than sufficient revenue to cover all current sovereign debt interest, that is until the inevitable decline in the broader economy results in greater levels of default, and of course, the markets shift their focus form the Euro onto the UK's currently insanely low sovereign interest %......
You guys keep junking me, but there are France, UK, Canada Korea and the PIIGGS, (now with to Gs) in the chart. What can you spell with that? c'mon we need another acronym
I'd go one step further and state that there is no difference between the co-conspirators. The London Gold Pool, the Plunge Protection Team, the bail out money moving secretly across borders, they have always been, and always will be in this together. That's why it is ridiculous for people to speculate that the EU is going to do this or that to the dollar. They are all going to live or die together.
For the same reason any other country that isn't part of the Eurozone isn't discused right now: they control their own currency, and aren't bound by the (disregarded and unenforced) limits that the Eurozone countries are.
Funny though, I think Juncker sort of forgot that Germany has these things called MANUFACTURING and EXPORTS that allow far more fiscal leniency than in countries that have little of either.
1.35 or bust!
1.35 and bust if you are Goldman.
I have to echo Bass here: Germany has high debt along with massively under-capitalized banks. DB has major leverage issues. Reggie Middleton has done some sweet analysis here. Germany rock solid? Don't think so...
That's not the point here. For one, the German economy is still in far better shape both short-term AND long-term than the other large players in the Eurozone. Even with high debt in an absolute sense, in a relative sense they are the healthiest of the bunch.
While Bass's point is technically correct, it's also important to realize that Juncker is not saying this to be technically correct or particularly analytical, he's saying it to rhetorically bludgeon the Germans into thinking they suck as much as the rest of Europe and should therefore sacrifice their sovereignty to save the EU, themselves included. It's a propaganda maneuver with an entirely ulterior motive, unlike Bass's appraisal that he made merely to drive the point home that the EFSF or any other bailout vehicle is ultimately unworkable and unsustainable. Ironically, Juncker is making these statemetns to encourage German participation in unsustainable rescue funds, while Bass was making them to point out how it's fruitless to do so.
yes but none of those economies are going to grow enough to repay those debts.
The entire world owes more hamburgers next tuesday than can be repaid
Oh well of course not, but that would require recognizing REALITY, which none of these players are interested in.
WHAT!? No Infinite growth!?
redpill
Juncker might still want to sell his blasted EuroBond
Forget Juncker for a second here and babbling Eurocrats who's only agenda is to perpetuate the ponzi and generally peddle nonsense.
Bass states simple facts. Germans can afford Greece for a while. Italy? no. Spain? no. Bond vigilantes show up in Germany by January if they don't start getting some traction with this two-tier Eurozone idea. Otherwise MAD rules the day. Cue dominoes.
Somebody had to replace China as the recepticle of our optimism. It's not about the reality, it's about the sentiment.
When China goes High-Tech with 1/5th of the production costs Germany is finished too
China ATM mainly produces Low-Tech goods, but they are working hard on moving up the Tech chain, sure there will be some niches that only Germans or other smaller nations will be competitive at but China will be doing all the commodity High-Tech products decimating Germany's exports over the next 10-20 years
Goodbye growth.
No matter what they do, economies don't grow when their populations age. Baby boomers don't need any more TV sets, and they don't ski anymore either. They are not buying scuba gear, and are never going to bike again. You can't sell them stuff, so your economy can't grow.
Agree Smid, add to that the overwhelming youth unemployment in the west and both end of the age scale aren't buying as much. A dwindling middle class that's being stretched and it's not looking pretty.
The ever cautious Mervyn King made sure they were very long duration treasuries. They don't have to roll over and renew anything like the amount their European neighbours have to do each year.
The good ole' boys Rothschild (Bank of England) printed 75 billion pounds already a few months ago already
The good ole' boys Rothschild (Bank of England) printed 75 billion pounds already a few months ago already
All-out war between Germany and the rest of Europe is not exactly unprecedented...
Simpsons take on Germans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eSKhAegCPk
It's part of the plan for a new world order.
You can only convince the masses into stupid decisions (political leaders, economic decisions and a new currency) when there is total chaos.
Ordo ab chao or in English order out of chaos.
Financially it will be the entire world, in terms of war I believe "only" the middle east and northern Africa. Its all about control over the resources.
Buckle up, next year will be a wild ride.
History in the making is never fun.
HH seriously your better off punching them in the face/forced default or just waiting till they relax/ voluntarydefault..
What he says is true about risk on investors.
Free market be damned. We need moral hazard now!
Similar thinking, but mine was more like he should be the replacement for the Iraqi minister that kept reporting that no US troops were to be seen anywhere around Baghdad. (While not expressing support for that war) that dude cracked me up.
Yep- I imagine that MDB's grandfather was making similar posts in Germany, circa 1936, with similar merit......
@ MDB and Slaughterer: You both make this blog more fun to read.
Slaughterer, if you didn't change your avatar to a risque one on (some?) weekends, I would be starting with your posts.
The fact that you suggest that "financial equity investors... are counting on <Germany> to do the right thing" and bail out countries who have been financially reckless shows just how far we have fallen into the moral hazard.
That's easy for you to say. Nobody could have foreseen this crisis, and equity investors who bought into financials at the top of the market have been suffering. Many value investors put their faith and trust in world leaders and the global economy and to see smart-arse amateurs suggest that they should be betrayed makes my blood boil.
MDB you're a douchebag.
Bill Miller is that you?
MDB, do you think that the international cimmunity would let us down? Can't we count on them to use their influence to inspire unity? If we all pull together, how can we fail? Give serfdom a chance you radical individualists. (Ooops, sorry, I broke character. Stop that confounded sniggering).
We should create a worldwide relief fund where we borrow from the generous people of Mars to give much-needed aid to all the world's struggling financial organizations. They deserve this help, after all, because without them and their generous loans, we wouldn't be able to afford our 4,000 square foot McMansions in suburbia or our leased BMWs.
"Nobody could have foreseen this crisis..."
My good man, it is not recommended to openly display your ignorance. A grade school child could see that if all the European countries are in great debt that a crisis would be looming and imminent. Do you work for Fannie Mae??
How is it betrayal? 'Value Investors' make a poor decision by putting their faith, trust, AND money into world leaders and now they're getting burned. Maybe they'll learn a lesson.
You just gotta love those Financial equity investors---
It's not just "easy to say".
I'm an average person with an average education, and I was forecasting this bullshit in early 2006. The only benefit I had - in hindsight - is that I associate with people who are smarter than I am, and I began reading what they were reading. And I did A LOT of reading.
Lots of people "foresaw this crisis". They were just ignored. Robert Prechter, for one, has been screaming to the rooftops for years and years about bad debt, over-leveraging, etc.
I recommend you start by picking up some of his books.
Lastly, "you rolls the dice and you takes the chances". All the things worth having in life - liberty, happiness, wealth, etc. - are not guaranteed nor given. They're EARNED, asshole.
I've stocked up on firearms and ammo just for sorts like you who will come to take what I've earned because they failed to foresee and forearm themselves.
"...put their faith and trust in world leaders and the global economy.."
LOL
LOLOL!!
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
@MDB_ ...pure genius :-)
again, Germany is playing chicken with the IMF. it's only a matter of time before the rest of the blowhards in the EU join the game. that's the evolution of the narrative- the world has to bail out the Euro or the whole thing goes down.
"that's the evolution of the narrative- the world has to bail out the Euro or the whole thing goes down." (to stall whilst we secretly and methodically buy up all the cheap gold in the world )
Fixed er for ya sonny!
There are no bailouts, there can be no bailouts. All we are seeing is transferring public money to private pockets to stall for time. That's why everyone who has received those funds are still insolvent. The game was never to bail them out. The game was to stall for time.
That game has put a good deal of physical metal in many of our pockets.
i didn't say the bailout would work, but it will come. the central wankers aren't giving up this easy.
Do I hear you correctly? Is the right thing taking money you have earned from hard work and responsible and disciplined behavior and giving it to irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy and profligate spenders so they can continue their misbehavior? That's like the Dr. behaving like a pusher to a junkie! Time to stop the enabling behavior. At some point people need to be accountable for their actions as individuals and as a country. I love these socialist unions who don't give a shit about anyone but their members..to the detriment of the rest of society (I have no issues with unions preventing worker exploitation, but when the tables are turned I have a problem). This is just one of the reasons socialsim doesn't work. I believe that people are inherently good, until you give them a reason and the opportunity to be bad. Not only do we need to deleverage public and private debt, sadly, we need to deleverage the weight on society that creates this debt (people who are capable of working who don't work or work very little and take from society more than they give -I'm not talking about unemployed people looking for a job, I'm talking about the parasites with a sense of entitlement)...and that will be a sad and very painful chapter in the history of mankind.
Misallocation of capital, bitchez.
Misallocation of capital = Taxes
I for one can understand your anger--however putting blame on the masses for the central planners actions is foolish and plays to their hands. If you think about it clearly you will see that the 1% are the benifactors of the socialist systems, not the bums eating potatoes and getting medical atention in university school hospitals.
Surely your comment is tongue and cheek.
EURO BONDS coming soon bitchez !
But they haven't recapped their banks yet nor have they accounted for unfunded state pension liability which will be huge with an aging population (not as bad as japan tho)
@Gene: They also have huge gov liabilities. Kyle Bass also mentioned they haven't recapped their banks either, and we know there's lots of toxic ooze under the carpet and in the closets
Maybe the old bastards should sacrifice themselves for the younger generation, Kavorkian style.
Germany should come out tomorrow and say we are getting out of the Euro and forming another one that is stronger.
Madness is like gravity. All it takes is a little push --Joker
Scare the Germans from the Euro!!!
Really, Juncker's comments were partly just the Luxembourg - Low Countries sense of humour we have.
A bit hard to fathom for outsiders, I understand.
I suspected that someone from the Low Countries would see it this way (see my comment below)
he is still an idiot or following some twisted agenda, IMO
he is the PM of one of the smallest EZ countries which consists of nearly more banks then citizens
he is the current "EuroGroup" head - because the job rotates between PMs
when he speaks, markets listen, including commenting on "unelected burocrat" and such nonsense
he should really realize that he is not talking only to his home audience in the Low Countries
Well, at least Juncker did not call the Germans "profligate idiots." /sarc
Knock off all this truth and honestly shit! We're running a totally clean, legit, ponzi here - and don't you forget it mister!
No doubt. There's obviously not enough new debt issued at ZIRP levels to make good on all of the old debt.
Doesn't he realize how this works? Surely he doesn't believe that less money is better?
long convexity
Long snorkels, scuba and gills.
Long on PVC pipe and shovels
Analysis bang on tyler. am shocked juncker, who put the credibility of the eurogroup on the line with his outright lie about a meeting not taking place just as it was taking place, would seek such a measure to push his eurobond idea through berlin, as if there were millions of Spaniards out there worried they would have to bail out Germany.
Germany to once again (successfully) invade France. U.S.A once again to come to the latter's aid. And who says history doesn't repeat itself!
And the UK pulls out of the EU and again stands alone.
Drum roll please...George Soros makes another billion! Thank you everyone.
Don't worry, his spiritual brothers from the Koch family are certainly up dramatically as well.
Exactly what do these two have in common? How many national currencies have the Koch bropthers decimated? How many times have the Koch brothers met with Obama and the Center for American Progress? How many violent revoltionary union asshats have the Koch brothers funded? How much oil has Soros produced? It's trendy to be equanimous but seems also woefully inapprproiate. Productive, libertarian, people who fund the Cato Institute are hardly the same as the archfiend Soros. Better figure out who your enemies are.
Shh, moral equivalency is all these guys have.. If you try to make them think logically their little pointed heads explode and it's such a mess.. Marx over there, Engels splattered over here, national socialists in the bloody mess somewhere..
Yeah sure, your pitiful little colonies would be still under Great Britain if French had not helped your ragtag army long ago...
And we got a swell statue to boot!
you're still speaking mostly french
You got it wrong. US, Australia and Germany attack China. That's the plan. Go East.
Juncker fucked up today's HFT levitation. Doesn't he know the rules? Lots of behind-the-scenes discontent here.
Yeah, only good rumors after 11:00. Bad news is reserved for after 4:00. Didn't he attend the mandatory equity manipulation meetings back in August?
Ausgzeichnet!
Its all about zee germansss!
Ist Herr Junker eine Schweise? Otherwise, german says germany screwed?
Well we've been waiting for it, here it comes.
He's a Luxembourger, and I never met one yet who liked Germany
Occupation, War, Murder, Forced name change (from French version of a name to the German version)
Why would they be bitter?
and I'm really not sure why he is a "bureaucrat"
last time I checked he was the PM of Luxemburg
Tyler, exchange pathetic bureaucrat with pathetic politician, pls
-----------
to be frank, I understand his POV
there is little sense in behaving as if only a few countries have huge mountains of debt
Juncker is teh Prime Minister of Luxembourg when he is not running the eurogroup
Good one!
Next you'll be telling us Luxembourg is an actual country in Europe.
His Royal Highness Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg will have you head for this
His Grace. HRH is for a crown prince
His Grace = Duke
His Royal Highness = Grand Duke
His Royal Arse would be more than sufficient;)
My Royal Arse, you dirty peon ;-)
good one. luxembourg a country. it's small offshore place for European capital.
Juncker should pick on someone more the size of Luxembourg. Like Andorra.
Via Dow Jones: * Juncker Says German Debt Level Is Alarming
Alarming!!!!
Now I am truly confused.
I thought having a lot of debt meant you were rich. You mean to tell me that's a lie?
My world is slowly being turned upside-down.
You have to also hold a lot of your neighbors' debt, too. Kind of a "we owe it to ourselves" type of wealth generator.
Time to buy German CDS and to narrow the spreads between Germany and France (lower spreads but with parabolically higher yields for both countries).
European refugees go west! or at least: buy US$$$$!!!!
Yes! SInce the crisis, I always show off about my debt levels at parties. It really impresses people, they think I'm a big wheel. "I lost Forty Million with Bernie Madoff" really attracts attention
I feel alarmed.
I feel dirty
Ah, the parasitical bureaucracy that is the EU is upset that the only one of its hosts big enough to tell it where to go won't hand over its wallet and let the Eurocrats help themselves.
Next up: Angela Merkel replaced by a government of technocrats?
LOL
The bulls are conditioned like Pavlov dogs to buy stocks when any government in EU is replaced by a "technocrat"
Technocrat = 400 Dow Rally
They make bullish HFT bots now? Or have they become self-aware?
HFT bots get data inputs from the headline reading bots.
HFT and momo monkeys have pre-program their robots to bid up stocks (to mark up stocks 400 Dow points) every time they register a "technocrat" headline.
Do not forget:
Autocrat = 500
Plutocrat = 1000
Kleptocrat = New record on markets worldwide.
LOL
Good name for 3rd US party next year: The Kleptocrats. I nominate you leader! I'll be treasurer....
Stop talking about, the market is up again on the news.The market is on drug. They don't eat, they don't drive, they only buy stocks.
Nice of you to reduce the spreads this way...
this comment was merely the chum needed to attract the end of day rumors that will send the markets soaring to glorious new highs because, as we all know...all is well and life is too too beautiful.
Seems perfectly normal to me.
What better way to pacify the German voters than to say; "We aren't bailing out the EU because we can't afford it"
At some point Fritz has to come up with a reason to not piss their money away bailing out the PIIGS...
Here is a Google translate of the original article in the german newspaper "Bonner Generalanzeiger" (a medium sized regional newspaper located in the former german capital city of Bonn).
It does not sound too insane, he is just stating the obvious: the absolute amount of german sovereign debt.
"Bonn (ots) - Euro group chief Jean-Claude Juncker has accused the policy in Germany, to pretend that the country would be debt free. "I think the amount of German debt for concern," Juncker said in an interview with the Bonner General-Anzeiger, adding that "Germany has higher debt than Spain. Only here will not know. "Luxembourg's prime minister was given the financial crisis understanding of fears in Germany. "Here, people had to watch powerless twice the total destruction of the entire national wealth." He sees but currently neither a risk of inflation remains a real risk of collapse of the currency zone. "There is no reason to think that their savings would come into the danger zone." Juncker sees Greece in fiscal consolidation on track. "I would, however, this route was not as straightforward to note, that he is now allowed even to see light at the end of the tunnel." A withdrawal of Greece from the euro area Juncker described as "theoretical". Because the country would continue to pay its debts in euros, but the new drachma would lose 60 percent of its value, threatened with a withdrawal a "catastrophic scenario". Juncker believes that the British Government will not be long resistance to an effective financial market regulation at European level. "In the long run there will be no special path for Britain." Europeans should not "at the mercy of financial markets." Restrained showed Juncker on the question whether the new government in Italy now back up. "The Italians must now do together on the path of reform," Juncker said."
edit: "Only here will not know" ist a very poor translation. The section best translates to: "I believe the [absolute] amount of german debt is a cause for concern. German debt is higher than that of Spain. But noone around here (um, where?) wants to hear of it ."
Luxembourg makes a tremendous amount of money as a Euro securities financial center, mutual fund operator, and tax-haven. Junker is loath to have investors notice that for the euro nations that have not recapped their banks (that's all of them) the huge risk is in those countries where the largest pile of debt is in "corporations and banks" and households, not yet on the government's ledger. When France and Spain are forced to bail out their banks (i.e. when the banks finally mark down their loan book) their sovereign debt profiles will become truly hideous. It's obvious. If I were a German already long aware of the debt problem in an otherwise strong economy, Junker's attitude would have pushed me to vote Euro Nein months ago. Junker was actually referring to Germany's reluctance to let their reserves back the rescue fund. "No risk there!" You must be kidding. When the recap comes Luxembourg finance will sink with it.
well, i did not find the interview on their homepage... can u give a link?
Maybe the squid wants Abby Joseph Cohen to replace Merkel?
Well, if he's like me, he's been living on 600% of his own GDP for a while. So what's the big deal with 284?
After all, everything in the world is just a write off.
http://vegasxau.blogspot.com
Fellas, always remember Jun(c)ker's own words earlier this year when listening to this unelected idiot:
"When things get tough, I have to lie."
and dont forget off balance sheet debt!!
Total Gov net liabilities (from SG study) + private sector debt % GDP:
France 549% / 155% (AAA)
Germany 418% / 128%
Italy 364% / 121%
UK 442% / 215%
Spain 244% / 171%
US 541% / 174%
Well at least he didnt call the Germans 'a bunch of bitchez'.
So allowing all of the world's banks to leverage up to 50X was not so good an idea?
What, and risk growth? Don't be a defeatist.
All we need do is ban all selling, then nothing can go down anymore. See? Easy!
or, at least banning selling at a loss. then the market can ONLY go up! WWWHHHEEEE!!!!!
In my view, that is the essence of the global debt crisis. If you are leveraged more than 30 times or more, then your trading has to be just about perfect--and no one is perfect. There is no room for error. You lose 10% of your equity and you get wiped out entirely. With trillions in complex derivative contracts, CDSs, etc., coupled with failing counter parties and light volumes in these exotic markets is a recipe for disaster. It is inevitable that there is going to be some cataclysmic crash in the European financial markets in the next several months.
So does anyone have any other questions about Merkel's comment "If the Euro fails, we may be facing war"?
What about another plan to have another meeting to plan a plan to have another meeting?
They are talking about making plans to set up a feasibility study group to address that very issue as we speak.
Ahhh, Shit, Them Fighten words.
The Germans have glitches, too? Whoddathunkit?
When do we get a western world's 'deck of cards' for bankers? And who's the Ace of Spades?
He might as well.
Everybody else has.
Yea if Juncker has gone insane, wouldnt that just mean he's the last holdout to enter the world leader normalcy club?
Are germans hiding their debts?
A lot of German bank debt is "housed" in Ireland.
And we have the best regulators in the whole wide world.
So no problem there. /sarc
A lot of European bank debt (over $300 billion) and sovereign debt (who knows) is "housed" in US Money Market Funds that pay almost nil...how long before holders of MMF decide that no gain for considerable risk is folly? Get your cash/clients' cash out of money market funds now!
Huh. It's either "pay as you go" or fake IOUs in the
pension funds anyways.
They have not recapped banks, only nationalized Hypo (and we can only imagine what's in there, half of Irish mortgages). They got internal probs with big gov liabilities. Despite the image, they give average workers 6-8 weeks paid vaca per year.
Not a smart comment but the stakes are high for Germany. If the eurozone splits up with the southern countries devaluing their currency either through the adoption of a weaker euro or with their own new currencies, the imbalance in the eurozone will be partly eliminated. This means that German industry will have to live with a currency (a Northern Euro) that's far stronger than it is now from the German standpoint. As a result, German exports will crash almost overnight. Germany's debt, which is not a concern now, will then become a serious concern - when coupled with a plunging real economy. This will either result in a massive devaluation of the Northern ('strong') Euro or Germany's exit from the Eurozone. Either scenario will reveal that the hand that feeds the eurozone is in debt up to its eyeballs and will have problems serving it with its plunging exports. Remember that the German export miracle is fueled with euro imbalances, nothing else. There has been no increase in productivity, salaries or anything in Germany for the last decade. If the imbalances go, the emperor will find himself with no clothes.
If the EU can't bluff its way through this crisis or complete a total Brussels/banker takeover of the southern countries, one of these two scenarios will unfold. Total panic, breakup of the EU and German austerity. The banker owned Brussels machine is all in now to prevent this from happening. I can't imagine there's a single Brussels apparachik left that hasn't shit his pants at least once.
It isn't simply how much debt, it is whose debt that matters more. Not all debt is equally risky - obviously. So a chart showing total debt is informative, but not as much as it would be if we could also see the debt broken out into rankings. I suspect that the debt Germany owns is a bit more solid than the debt owned by most other EU countries.
I doubt that. If the southern countries default or exit the eurozone, a huge part of German held debt will be wiped out. At the same time the German export engine will crash. The Germans realize this and this is the reason they are preparing for a possible eurozone exit and are getting the printing presses ready for the new Deutsch Mark. Germany is actually hugely vulnerable because their export relies on artificially low prices because of artificially weak Euro (from their point of view) and because their foreign debt holdings are worthless. If shit hits the fan there's absolutely no other option for them than to exit the euro and print a new Mark, massively devalued compared to the current Euro.
I like this chart.
The graph is incorrect. The U.S. number includes neither (a) state debt, nor (b) the trillions that the U.S. owes to the Social Security trust fund. Therefore, the top segment of the U.S. bar is too short and U.S. total debt-to-GDP is underestimated
It is sensible not to include the oft referred to social security trust fund "debt," in order to provide a representative comparison with the German and Japanese numbers. They don't play the BS "trust fund" game, and the US trust fund "bonds" are not marketable.