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Here Are The Details Of Obama's Upcoming Push For More Fiscal Stimulus

Tyler Durden's picture


Yesterday we had some choice words indicating why fiscal stimulus in a period of unprecedented monetary intervention (such as now) is about the worst thing that can happen to America, when not even 8 months ago Goldman based its completely wrong and now discredited call that the $100 billion payroll tax "stimulus" would lead to 4.5% 2011 GDP (since retracted). Today, we provide some additional information on just how Obama plans to further stimulate the economy by sacrificing the middle class at the alter of the "this time it's different" gods. From Bloomberg: "President Barack Obama plans to ask Congress for billions of dollars in fresh spending to boost the economy and reduce unemployment, with a new focus on helping the long-term unemployed, an administration official said." But as pointed out the humor is in the post script: "The president also will call for long-term cuts beyond the $1.5 trillion that Congress has charged a 12-member bipartisan “super-committee” of lawmakers to trim by late November, the official said." Preferably cuts that actually affect the US after 2016 when Obama's second term expires. Or even 2013, because according to the mainstream media Perry is now gaining, and who is that Ron Paul fellow?

The comedy continues:

The dollar amount of the additional long-term deficit reduction measures will exceed the cost of the short-term spending that he will propose, said the official, who requested anonymity because plans for the speech haven’t been completed. According to the official, Obama plans to unveil his priorities in a speech in early September and propose a mix of tax cuts and infrastructure spending, including extending two measures that expire at the end of the year: the two-percentage-point payroll tax cut for workers and unemployment insurance benefits.


He will also include new spending and jobs proposals, beyond the ones he has mentioned on his current Midwest bus tour, said the official, without elaborating on the new policies. As part of his jobs package, Obama is said to be considering two sets of ideas: ones that will require legislative action and ones that will can be done by the executive branch alone, without congressional approval.

And now, apparently, Obama is the budget cut warrior.

In an interview with CNN yesterday, Obama hinted at his plans to press Congress for another round of budget cuts, along with more spending.


“We missed an opportunity a month ago when we could have dealt with our debt and deficit in a serious, balanced way,” he said. “We’re going to take one more run at Congress, and we’re going to say to them, ‘Look, here is a comprehensive approach that gets our debt and deficits under control and also accelerates job growth right now.’”

Then again what else can one expect from a president who five years ago said the following vis-a-vis the debt ceiling:

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.


As for the efficiency of the fiscal stimulus, this chart from the ARRA vs reality sumarized it all.

From the original ARRA proposal:

And the outcome:


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Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:39 | 1568781 Racer
Racer's picture

Shocking a corpse doesn't work

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:49 | 1568803 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

One of my favortie economists, Dr Paul Krugman (p.h.d, Nobel Laureate, MIT, Yale, Princeton, London School of Economics), has written extensively on this issue. The underlying problem is a lack of aggregate demand. Therefore the solution is to increase monetary stimulus untill people start spending again on consumer goods. We have a service economy here in the US which depends heavily on domestic consumption, so the doomer solution of saving simply won't work.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:55 | 1568824 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

No-one should EVER save up for anything. EVERYTHING should be based on taking an increasing amount of loans in the bank. How fucking retarded can you get?

Perhaps if more consumption was financed through savings, recessions wouldn't last as long?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:14 | 1568864 g
g's picture

We would have wealth if we produced goods. Relying on consumption will fail and is failing. Especially because it was subsidized heavily with debt. No amount of additional debt will cause job creation. All the government does is take money from one group and gives it to another through taxation. There is a loss as well because of the the inefficiency of anything the government does. People should be encouraged to save and to pay down debt. It is obviously debt that caused our current predicament, thus more debt is not going to be the solution, perhaps a very short term benefit at the best. There is no way the government can create jobs, this is a job for the private sector. If businesses (small/mid size), could actually count on the government to enforce contracts, stop changing regulations and tax codes, and provide a stable framework for operating a business, they might actually become confident enough to hire and expand. A clear cut plan to promote energy independence, government non-interference, balanced budget, reasonable regulations that do not change on political whims, revamped tax code eliminating loop holes and a flat tax, and how about simply enforcing the regulations we already have, separation of corporation and government (a new constitiutional amendment there!),furthermore, failure of the SEC and other government organizations come to mind ( and people cry and scream for more government interference and regulation, when it is those very institutions that failed miserably in the first place to stop the fraud because they are active participants) might go very far toward improving our sick economy.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:16 | 1568881 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Who are we selling those goods to?  Where is the cheap energy and labor coming from to make selling those goods profitable?  The world can already manufactur better than we can and for a much bigger profit, why would they buy anything from the U.S.?  All we produce now are "financial products" like those toxic MBS.  Yeah good luck dude. 

I see only one potential avenue- agriculture.  The U.S. has the most efficent agcricultural machine in the world.  Unfortunately, it has a huge energy demand too.  Therein lays the rub.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:30 | 1568934 g
g's picture

Global wage arbitrage is well on its way and it will help to make the US more competitive in the global goods markets. As the standard of living falls in this country that will faciliate this process. The standard of living here is very much a farce, unsustainably lifted by leverage and debt. When the great 'revaluation' happens a lot is going to change. There are many reasons that businesses could compete effectively in the global markets, unfortunately through tax codes and various over-regulation of many industries, business can not compete. Take for instance unions. I am not anti-union, but unions need to compete against private enterprise in a fair marketplace. The government has elevated unions into the privileged special interest category. Why do you think that Boeing wants to move to a right to work state. It is Boeing's right to do so and the government brings a law suit against them. So in effect our government wages a war against productive business and props up failed systems backed by unions. It is rediculous and sad, especially at a time when those jobs are needed most. So if our country would stop sabotaging itself perhaps we could create a productive rather than a comsumptive economy. Look at the number of failing municipalities and states, due to debt, unions, pensions etc. The only reason the federal government has not failed yet is because it has someone (the FED) who prints money and monetizes the debt, this will fail as well. The government is further sabotaging business and the wealth of the people by devaluing the currency and decreasing its purchasing power etc. Oh well, I digress..........

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:32 | 1568951 RSloane
RSloane's picture

Obama - "I'm going to increase exports!!"

Boeing is the US's largest exporter.

Obama - "Sue Boeing!!"

Thu, 08/18/2011 - 04:56 | 1571783 JohnF
JohnF's picture

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the shortest and most accurate description why stimulus isn't ever going to work.

Bluntly, the dysfunction is built into the system: export, but force the exporters to give money to the cronies of the party in power, effectively making them no longer competitive.

Just like the ethanol mess: the EPA requires now a certain amount of ethanol, which was supposed to be supplied by US makers. Since these have found - surprise, surprise - that they can't supply it (there is none out there available to buy), penalties are set to kick in to punish users for not using that which is not available, but according to the government's plans, should have been there.


Idiots is too nice a word...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:02 | 1569096 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I agree, but all this still ignores the energy part of the equation (which the governement has also been subsidizing and fucking with in general for 40+ years).

wage arbitrage AND the real cost of energy coming soon.  My point is that american businesses will not survive if they are exposed to the real cost of energy, so they like this government intervention, but hate all other government invervention.  Sorry, you can not have it both ways.  Nor can the entire world be a producer in the long run.  Who is "the world" selling too?  Mars?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:27 | 1569176 g
g's picture

The energy side of the equation is going to have an ever increasing negative impact on the economy, since I already posted about that in another thread today I had decided not to repost, but here goes ;) The real cost of energy is going to be part of the great revaluation of everything.



Assuming that some form of energy production will emerge to replace fossil fuels is naive and dangerous. We should have started contingency planning, improving efficiency, and integrating large numbers of other energy producing systems 20 years ago, to mitigate the disaster that could occur when fossil fuels run out or do not produce a gain in EROEI.


The fact the the media and the government refused to accept the peak oil concept is egregious. There may be no technological wonder, technology does not produce energy by the way, that will provide for our current energy needs. Fact is even if we could produce enough electricity for commercial, residential, and transportation systems without fossil fuels, our infrastructure could not use it, it would take a decade or more to transition the transportation infrastructure to use electricity, once again something we should have started 20 years ago.


Check out, he sums it up best, some nice statistics on the number of alternative power producing plants it takes to replace fossil fuels, mind boggling really. He also discusses the issues with converting the transportation system to use electricity. Check it out.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:36 | 1568968 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

I don't know why everyone keeps claiming America doesn't produce consumer goods anymore.  America produces more than the rest of the world combined (with the help of her 1.3 billion Chinese slaves working overtime in her Chinese colony).  Not slaves you say?  What would you call making people work and giving them worthless bits of computer data in return?

Let's just hope we don't have a slave revolt like the French did in Haiti.

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:11 | 1569130 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

Love love love that song! Mathews has had it figured out for a long time. Wonder if he is a Ron Paul supporter yet?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:51 | 1569286 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Ecclesiastes 8: 15: “Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry . . ."

Isaiah 22:13 But see, there is joy and revelry, slaughtering of cattle and killing of sheep, eating of meat and drinking of wine! "Let us eat and drink," you say, "for tomorrow we die!"

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 14:08 | 1569647 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

I did not know that was a quote straight from the bible! Learn something new everyday.... :)

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:56 | 1568825 ex VRWC
ex VRWC's picture

We needed this comic relief this morning.  What's remarkable is that you deliver this with a straight face.  Well done!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:06 | 1568847 piceridu
piceridu's picture

Harry, Hammy is that you?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:13 | 1568866 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

LOL!  The "acdemic" theories are based on infinite growth in a finite world.  Good luck with that.  Energy is the only thing that matters and we have reached maximum flux folks.  In other words, maximum world GDP, it doesn't matter whether or not you have a service or manufacturing economy.  Of course, America has a whole bunch of "financial products" they offer.  Hhhmmm, any REAL VALUE in those paper bullshit products?  I think not.  Fraud remains the status quo.  Good luck everyone.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:14 | 1568872 Whatta
Whatta's picture

Genghis Krugman....yeah, what we need is another debt-leveraged ponzinomics bigger-and-better more-glorious-than-ever Spendathon to get us out of this. We ran through our credit cards, our equity market dot.bomb, and our houses...what is left? Oh yeah...

,...mortgaging our spouses and kids to buy Large Furniture to go in to our mcmansions, iCrap for the neighborhood.


The past is the past. The new normal is getting by on less and living local. Fvck China and Krugman.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:21 | 1568906 Catullus
Catullus's picture

Aggregate demand. That's cute. When do I get to see the magic demand aggregator machine?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:06 | 1569114 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

That's the welfare state...

But the demand has no associated supply...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:23 | 1568913 RSloane
RSloane's picture

"DR" Krugman is just another pillow-biting, tear-stained cheerleader for anything that has been proven wrong over and over.  No wonder Obama loves him.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:30 | 1568947 Schiff hits the fan
Schiff hits the fan's picture

What do the college kids and blacks who voted for Obama in 2008 have in common?

They're both unemployed in 2011.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:40 | 1568983 Syrin
Syrin's picture

Fortunately both groups are starting to put together cause and effect.   The others are true believers paid to feed Obamugabe's unicorns.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:52 | 1569045 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Do you think that makes them more or less likely to vote for the Secessionist, the Invisible Man, or Queen Batshit?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:17 | 1569154 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

I am hedging my bet on the invisible man. He has the only message that will resonate with them.... Well at least a portion of them. I have already brought a few disgruntled obama supporters into the light lol

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:32 | 1568955 Tom_333
Tom_333's picture

Exactly...War it is then.Since the aliens refuse to open hostilities I guess Iran will do for now (until more stimulus is needed)

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:39 | 1568977 Syrin
Syrin's picture

Krugman is an idiot, no matter what awards he's received.   (Remember our Nobel peace Prize winning president?  Ask Libya their thoughts).


In fact, Krugman is SO BAD, he had to SHUT DOWN the comments sections of his own blogs because he was getting epically owned by those who responded.   Plus he routinely contradicts himself.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:51 | 1569035 snowball777
snowball777's picture

"Therefore the solution is to increase monetary stimulus..."

Not to agree with P-Krug, but at least present the correct argument on his behalf...which is for fiscal stimulus.

Troll better, or don't troll at all.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:52 | 1569289 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

Let us not forget that Krugman came courtesy of Enron....


Aside from that little tidbit....Krugman's recommendation is really based on covert default of everyone's debt by creating inflation in one hand while hiding it with the other.

The term we use here is "Financial Repression".


What FR does is allow the use of inflation to slowly fix the ship and allow the economy to hum again.  This method keeps TPTB in power.

If we went the more direct route of default, well, that is too much risk to TPTB, while at the same time far more timely and effective at cleansing the system.


In short, I will take Ron Paul over the Enron God any day.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 16:38 | 1570381 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

"Dr Paul Krugman (p.h.d, Nobel Laureate..."

First of all, technically speaking, Krugman was awarded the Swedish Central Bank's Prize in International Economics in Memory of Nobel -- not the actual Nobel Prize, although it is consistently referred to wrongly.

Next, Krugman sounds good lately, especially for a lightweight, as he has been politically repositioning himself, after many years of evangelizing for the offshoring of all jobs in America.

One day, even that halfwit Krugman finally realized that might just affect aggregate demand.

No shit, Krugman!  A phrase he's heard often in his pathetic life.



Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:49 | 1568808 slaughterer
slaughterer's picture

Magical Misery Tour extended for another 5 years.  

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:05 | 1568837 raki_d
raki_d's picture

Obama.. take a break.. chill out for a moment
here you go..Slaughterer got you some juicypops..
get on that tour bus of yours and stimulate your mind first !!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:38 | 1568974 hunglow
hunglow's picture

Do those have fungibility.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 14:13 | 1569673 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

+1 lol

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 14:32 | 1569739 mr_T
mr_T's picture

WS and amerika needz MOBAMA.... Prez for life..... welcome to ClubFEMA...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:41 | 1568784 PaperBear
PaperBear's picture

Ron Paul 81%, Rick Perry 19%


So much for the supposed front runner Rick Perry.

Ron Paul, Ron Paul, Ron Paul.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:46 | 1568797 Frog-And-Toad
Frog-And-Toad's picture

I would love for this to be the headline after the next debate... Could very well be, as the MSM will have to give Ron a shot now...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:03 | 1568838 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Nah, it just means the bought-and-paid-for MSM will step up its disinformation campaign.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:16 | 1568875 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

The chances of MSM giving Dr. Ron Paul a shot are about as good as Jamie Dimon taking out a full-page WSJ ad telling the American public that JPM's bonus pool increases with each and every additional SNAP recipient added to the government dole.

Now, back to my regularly schedule silver stacking.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:25 | 1569177 Syrin
Syrin's picture

That makes obscure look commonplace

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:30 | 1569197 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Well Sec. of Ag Vilsack did say food stamps is a jobs program.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 14:35 | 1569688 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

Didn't you hear? Food stamps are another form of stimulus.... They never said stimulus to benefit whom...

Edited to add: if I would have read just a little further I would have seen you had already posted a link to the article I am referring too. Great minds....

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:49 | 1568809 brew
brew's picture

there has never been a better time to nominate an outsider.  even though he is running as a republican, he is not a republican...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:58 | 1568829 Mugatu
Mugatu's picture

I'm a Texan and I can tell you that Rick Perry is one giant doofus.  The guy is an ass-clown.  You thought Bush Jr was an idiot, just watch this guy - and this is coming from a lifelong Republican. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:12 | 1568858 Mugatu
Mugatu's picture

Great Picture of Rick Perry in full Moron Mode!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:19 | 1568890 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Rick Perry is a cock-gobbler.  Thanks for the picture proof.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:52 | 1569043 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

So was Monica Lewinsky and Linda Lovelace.  What's wrong with that?  You some religious wacko or something?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:56 | 1569068 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

HAHA. Stating facts does not equate to character judgement.  Barney Frank likes it in the ass and so does my wife.  I love my wife and don't love Barney. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:19 | 1569165 pods
pods's picture

He's telling the truth, she really does love it!




Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:31 | 1569201 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Pics or it didn't happen.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:56 | 1569312 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Since PhotoShop, pics are no longer suitable evidence of reality.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:58 | 1568830 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

It would be sweet if ZH endorsed Ron Paul for President.

ZH + Ron Paul money bomb where Zero Hedge kept 15% and the rest went to Dr. Paul's campaign. If Tyler doesn't organize it one of the contributors should. Just an idea

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:01 | 1568835 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

The next money bomb is on Aug20.

Hopefully Tyler promotes it?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:26 | 1568927 RSloane
RSloane's picture

I'm there!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:56 | 1569063 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Extra bonus points when he drops out or loses! Again!


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:12 | 1568863 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

you honestly think ANY of those those politicians are going to save you?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 15:40 | 1570043 Enceladus
Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:41 | 1568785 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

I will spend and cut trillions to make it all golden. I am O'bummer. Yes we can!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:20 | 1568898 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

I will spend and cut trillions from projected growth and give you all a golden shower.  - there, fixed it for ya.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 14:25 | 1569715 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

That made me lol! I think I love you Dick Head....too bad you are already spoken for. ;)

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:43 | 1568788 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Obama wants the spice to flow.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:23 | 1568914 collon88
collon88's picture

Problem is, that trouble maker John Gault got all the Third Order Navigators to go on strike. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:34 | 1569211 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

He should live out his remaining days in a pain amplification chamber.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:43 | 1568790 wombats
wombats's picture

Yup.  Kick the can to Ron Paul.  He's the one pol that might actually make a difference and fix things...or at least put the US on the road to recovery.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:52 | 1568815 slaughterer
slaughterer's picture

If Ron Paul will make the entire country confront the terrifying abyss of absolute liberty, I will vote for him. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:34 | 1568962 brew
brew's picture

he's real, ane he's spectacular...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:44 | 1568792 PaperBear
PaperBear's picture

Is that $1.5 trillion from the annual deficit ?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:21 | 1568905 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Nope, $1.5 trillion from an imaginary account of projected spending. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:45 | 1568793 Vashta Nerada
Vashta Nerada's picture

Doctors used to bleed patients in hopes of curing them, when in actuality it made them worse. 

The lesson: Doctors eventually learned from their mistakes.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:26 | 1568928 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

Yep, they learned that it was more profitable to push drugs to them for MONEY MONEY MONEY and not offer any cure, just a DRUG INDUCED COMA unto death,


he he them docs  -- a great bunch, they learned well.

Owebama , you up for dat???


Give em what they crave , the good stuff uncut, get em high hopey.



Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:56 | 1569065 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:39 | 1569228 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Yeah, but...

there was mondo profits made supplying the Royal Navy with surgical bleeding kits.

1. Bleed the patient.

2. ????

3. Profits!!!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:58 | 1569325 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Burials, especially at sea, are cheaper than disability pensions.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:45 | 1568794 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

If this is really what Dumbama wants to say then do not expect the FEDster to announce anything @JH! Its all about the (re) election(s), anyone with a cool head can make s ton of fiat now, to be turned into physical PMs later :)))!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:46 | 1568795 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Yea, but the market "CONFIRMED" the plan by racing higher on the news.

Jesus Christ, if I get anymore CONFIDENT then I'm going pass out.  I need to lay down with a cold wet rag on my forehead for a bit.  This is just too good to be true. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:06 | 1568796 Mercury
Mercury's picture

And now, apparently, Obama is the budget cut warrior.

Please.  Obama knows damn well that once you cram something into baseline spending (like Obamacare) it's the law of the land and it never does anything but get bigger.  All this bickering about budget cutting is only concerned with discretionary spending which is an ever-shrinking percentage of the government spending pie (and mostly Defense at that).

Either he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing as he pounds the final nails in the coffin or he knows exactly what he's doing as he pounds the final nails into the coffin but either way our fate is being sealed by this guy at a point in history that is/was (ironically) our last hope to turn things around (or at least alter course) before the iceberg struck.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:47 | 1568799 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

It will not be a jobs program but rather another handout to the unemployed or buying the electorate if you will. No way will congress vote for this and thus the stalemate continues. Obama's lack of ideas are killing the US economy right before your eyes.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:21 | 1568903 sabra1
sabra1's picture

handouts to the unemployed? if they fall off the rolls, they aren't counted!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:28 | 1568937 RSloane
RSloane's picture

We're going to mac&cheese our way to prosperity.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:27 | 1569185 Syrin
Syrin's picture

Only if we import the mac and acheese and use borrowed dollars to pay for it.   Just ask the Bernank

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:27 | 1568930 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Like Steve Wynn said in his earnings conference call, Obama is the biggest killer of real business activity he's ever seen.

Go ahead, print more, pump more, my PM's will love it while the dollar is rendered kindling for fire starting.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:29 | 1568942 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

NO NO NO.....

You have killed it if you think it needs to wait for Owebama or Bush or Perry or Paul to come up with an idea to bail you out.


What a bynch of fukin losers.




Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:47 | 1568800 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

by same token you may "revise" the Without Recovery Plan curve downward, if you would change a few assumptions/variables ;)

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:49 | 1568804 anynonmous
anynonmous's picture

Obama/Paul 2012

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:58 | 1568831 g
g's picture

Paul/Cain 2012

Ohbummer can move in with you.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:10 | 1568856 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

My liberty dream ticket would be

Ron Paul- President
Pat Buchanan- VP
Jim Rogers- Secreatary of Treasury
Alex Jones- Press Secretary (For the lolz)
Jesse Ventura- Secretary of Defense
Judge Nap- AG
Marc Faber- Head of Presidential Economic council

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:39 | 1568978 OpenEyes
OpenEyes's picture

Surely you can find a spot for Elizabeth Warren too.  I love that woman!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 14:44 | 1569793 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

Funny that you mention her. One of my friends was just telling me about her last night. He described her as a truth teller in the realm of ron paul. Def going to have to check her out...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:59 | 1569084 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Are you even old enough to vote?!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:26 | 1569183 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

Legal age is still 18 right? I am 21.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:16 | 1569152 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

Never a dull moment would there Jesse as SecDef (Secretary VENTURA) so all American, makes me think of surf, sun, hot babes and top-down chevy cars. :-)  Would mustaches and mullets be fashionable among the power elite?

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:36 | 1569220 g
g's picture


I could live with that, might make a few tweaks of my own! However, we had all better get on the same page someday in this country, it is the fact that it is so divided that allows the status quo to continue. Of course the media will sabotage them, especially Ron Paul as so clearly covered by ZH and Mish.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 15:41 | 1570055 moondog
moondog's picture

Stop it!! You're scaring the Oligarchs. It's bad enough that gold and silver are holding their ground. Now you have to talk about these boogeymen. Shame on you.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:31 | 1568949 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

rocky and bullwinkle 2012.


natashe and boris 2012.

blah blah blah blash............


It ain't them it's you.



Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:00 | 1569090 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Colbert/Felonius Munk 2012

Turtles Don't Like Peanut Butter, B!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:49 | 1568805 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 15:48 | 1570110 moondog
moondog's picture

The invisible man -->

The invisible man polling better than the oligarchs choice -->

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:49 | 1568806 daxtonbrown
daxtonbrown's picture

What part of "Obama is a commie" do people still not understand? He's in for a quadrillion if he's in for a dime.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:10 | 1568854 cpnscarlet
cpnscarlet's picture

I prefer Socilist/Communist Sympathizer based on the evidence we have...but why split hairs? "Commie" is good.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:26 | 1568922 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Not much different that Commie Bush throwing stimulus checks to the public when he signed that Economic Stimulus Act.  I plowed my check into silver back then.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:51 | 1568812 Pitchman
Pitchman's picture

The President's new million dollar bus for his non-campaign, campaign tour:

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:51 | 1568813 FMR Bankster
FMR Bankster's picture

Reminds me of my youth. For a Hamburger today, I'll gladly repay you on Tuesday. Let me spend even more money today and I'll gladly cut in 2017. He does sort of remind me of whimpy with his dedication to getting what he wants/needs.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:51 | 1568814 g
g's picture

ohbummer is another keynesian fool

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:52 | 1569290 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

He is a figurehead, and a future scapegoat, and I don't think he has the intellect to know it.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:53 | 1568817 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Wheres the need for any 'stimulus' at all, everything is FINE! The DOW is within 20 normal trading days (+100 avg opening pops) from our ALL-TIME record market highs!

'I'm Obama and I want more money' is NOT making the case for further need.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:54 | 1568819 Greenhead
Greenhead's picture

If I can have an ice cream cone now, I won't have dessert later.  Spend now, cut later?  Sounds pretty adolescent to me.  Why not just send every American a check, that will stimulate demand!  On the other hand, it is more politically rewarding to dole out the stimulus to your team, that way you get to stay at the wheel.

It is sickening to see how transparent this scheme is in its attempt to buy votes. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:18 | 1569159 sgorem
sgorem's picture


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 13:04 | 1569344 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

One more fix and then the junkie will quit. Honest.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:55 | 1568821 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

if ron paul starts winning upsets, they might try to get rid of him.  RON PAUL 2012

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:55 | 1568822 alexwest
alexwest's picture

2012 fin year deficit will be 2 trln $$..



Wed, 08/17/2011 - 10:57 | 1568827 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

The unemployment rate graphs are bullshit, even 60 Minutes is identifying a real 25% unemployment condition. All garbage. But HEY go print up another few trillion! My gold and silver will LOVE IT!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:00 | 1568834 roccman
roccman's picture

guess O'Timmay knows nothing of this:


yeah right - and pigs fly



Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:03 | 1568840 youngman
youngman's picture

Obama wants to spend now....cut way after I am out of office my votes for it later when I have tanked the country...its the Democratic Socialist way...Now if I was President/Dictator...I would make it mandatory for all consertatives to get gun training..most have it already..but just to fine tune it ...then I would cut spending would be an interesting couple of years but we need a reset...and we will get it wether I am President / Dictator or not...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:11 | 1568859 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

This is nothing but trying to find more money to extend the permanently unemployed 99ers checks, welfare checks, SNAP cards, for the 45% of americans who would otherwise starve to death. this is all such a cauldron of shit.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:30 | 1568945 pods
pods's picture

Broke and hungry does not make for a docile populace.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:37 | 1568966 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

yes it does, the hard part is just the first week or so when you may need to shoot a bunch of the rowdy but after that, yeah hunger brings on a weak and tired populace.


eat junk food for a month or two and see how you feel.


full/fat amd tired and depressed seems to be the ticket.



Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:53 | 1569053 pods
pods's picture

I would say that you would be correct if there was an actual shortage of food.  

There is not a shortage of food, so your scenario will play out a month or two after the SNAP cards get declined.

Till then there will be robberies, shootings, lootings, and general mayhem in most cities.  This will be correlated easily with the distribution maps for SNAP cards.

Too much of a difference between rich and poor here in the USA.  And too close in proximity as well.  That delta makes for some uneasy social relationships when times are good.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:14 | 1568871 FMR Bankster
FMR Bankster's picture

The Zombie wars have already started in Europe. Coming soon to a town near you!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:34 | 1568961 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

If I was Dictator I would have you shot for wanting to force people to take actions based on your diseased mind.

Next you will have them forced to get insurance and a medical card along with the gun training.




Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:10 | 1568855 franzpick
franzpick's picture

"Obama plans to ask Congress for billions of dollars in fresh spending".

And in today's opening hours investors have asked their brokers to move their trillions of dollars into hard asset grains, softs cocoa, cotton, coffee and sugar, as well as the usual PMs including palladium and even Dr. Copper.  It's quite an obvious flight to safety, hiding in plain sight.

Take a look here:

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:13 | 1568868 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yes, they can keep doing their 'I'll gladly pay you later for more cheeseburgers today' all they like but its not fooling anyone. 

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:10 | 1568857 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

In Where Profits Come From, we read:

    Government sector saving is a negative source of profits … Government expenditures add to business sector revenue both directly through government purchases of goods and services and indirectly by increasing the income of households, which then buy from business. Flows to the government either increase business expenses or reduce business revenue. If the government sector saves (spends less than it receives), the subtractions from profits will more than offset the additions to profits; a government surplus is a negative source of profits. Conversely, a government deficit is a positive source of profits because more money flows from the government sector to become business revenue than government takes away from business.

While the terminology – “government saving” – is misleading from a MMT perspective – you can easily just substitute the term “budget surplus” for “governmetn sector saving” without loss of insight in this context.

The point is that when the government runs a surplus it reduces profits via its squeeze on aggregate income. That is why all the business sector should be screaming at the fiscal austerity plans that are rampant at present.

It doesn’t make any sense, for the business lobby groups to be calling for cuts in the budget deficits. The only time that a rising budget deficit will not add to profits (in real terms) is if there is full capacity and the rising deficits push nominal aggregate demand beyond the real capacity of the economy to increase output and real income.

We are so far from that point in most economies at present that it doesn’t bear scrutiny.

So the fact that the business groups often lead the charge against budget deficits reflects the triumph of ideology over good judgement and the triumph of ignorance over understanding. I just shake my head in wonderment when I see a business person railing against budget deficits.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:37 | 1568971 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

“The point is that when the government runs a surplus it reduces profits” - RockyRacoon

Indeed, “business” wants government to help generate corporate profits. Corporations promote politicians who believe their duty is to increase corporate profits. Economists are trained to think that increasing business activity (code for profits, since how can there be business activity without profits) … creates the ideal world.

It is debatable whether attempts to prop up an economy by deficit spending (military or other), should most accurately be called “Keynesian” or should be called something else.

Keynesian or not, spending on battleships is just as much an expression of a profit-driven market as anything else. What can be meant by a free market if not free profits?

Business profits can be made by ruining forests, rivers, and oceans. Profits can be made by destroying the fisheries and polluting the air. Profits can be made by financial parasitism. Profits can be made by sweatshops, child labor, and poisoned foods. And profits can certainly be made by preparing and making wars. Micro profit, it seems, does not measure the environmental losses to society, nor the debilitation and destruction of human beings. Should not we then also disregard all such hindrances to profit?

At the prospect of such a “free market”, some proponents shrink and say they did not mean for the market to be quite that free. There must be control, even a government.

It is then the “free market” purists step forth and declare any control to be a contradiction, the profit-motivated markets cannot be operate freely if there is any control. All government is theft, they say, without saying exactly from whom. But not to worry they say, a purely free profit-driven market will transform all man’s vices into virtues. All organizations formed to rape the environment and plunder others will no longer wreak havoc or persecute their neighbors, no matter what profits might be made by doing so.

Corporations are the apex organization of a profit-driven economy. They are autocratic, secretive, one-dimensionally goal seeking, and have no intrinsic qualms about removing any obstacle to the achievement of their goal.

And the apex type of government sought by profit-driven corporations is one that adheres to their singular interest. The best government for such purpose is one they can assimilate and use. It is one much like the corporations themselves, autocratic, secretive, without qualms, and given to promoting business (aka profits) as the ultimate cure for all ills.

As apex organizations, do they not embody the principle of survival of the fittest?

Are they not most efficient at securing profits for themselves?

It is well recognized that the lowest wages, the least worker benefits, the absence of environmental restrictions, no taxes, and no government accounting results in the maximal business profits on the micro scale. Should we not strive then to effect all those circumstances in the belief that the micro activities of a free-profits market will consequently create the best of all possible worlds?

So let us embrace a system based on maximizing work, maximizing production, maximizing consumption…maximizing profits. Let profitability arbitrate our conduct and profitability judge the value of all that is in the world. Let us abhor leisure and have profit-making determine the quality of all life, human or other.

And should any oppose the freedom to do everything and anything (including wars) for profit, or that governments should deficit spend to help maximize those profits,

they might try standing in the way.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:46 | 1568982 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:47 | 1569007 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture





Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:12 | 1569137 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Two possible reasons, among many: (1) given lobbying groups' purposes are to effectuate favorable laws for their clients, the cutting of budgets does not have to be equally apportioned to all businesses and all sectors...  In other words, it's austerity for everyone else; (2) if the deficits ultimately cook the golden goose or shit in the wellspring (whether it be the currency or ability to consume), then said lobbyists may prefer smaller profits for all in exchange for a stay from the executioner...

Anytime anyone has a contemptuous view of another, I find it practical to investigate further...  sometimes the view is warranted, most of the time it is based upon a severe underappreciation of another's abilities.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:11 | 1568862 adr
adr's picture

The first 12 days of August didn't exist. The debt ceiling debate didn't exist and the AA downgrade of the USA didn't happen. It was all a dream as Cramer said. Vapor volume meltup to DOW 13k resumes.

We all know these things did happen but Wall Street has decided to forget everything. The Eurozone has been saved once again through talk and the debt switcheroo. Inflation in running rampant so that part of the Feds equation is working just as planned. Higher prices elsewhere coupled with a dropping dollar means higher profits and more bullshit earnings beats.

The circular reasoning circular debt show must go on. The script has been fire everyone you can to help the bottom line so earnings aren't as bad as everyone thought. Then give away free money to the banks and remove all risk so they will pump up the stock market. The printing of money will cause the value of the dollar to go down which will increase corporate profits on paper even if they sell less. This will in turn add the fuel the stock market needs to go higher. Thus the stock market goes up and the economy is saved.

As long as the dollar falls earnings will continue to be touted as excellent, even with the lowering of expectations right before earnings are announced, but don;t talk about that. How many companies would have beat earnings based on the expectations set in March, 2% maybe?

This is a clown show but it will keep on going until someone steps in and stops the circle from spinning. Does anyone think debt matters anymore? With 1.4 quadrillion in derivatives and more debt than the world can ever pay back this show can go on forever. As long as nobody cares plunderers will keep on going. If five people walk into Walmart and walk out with plasma TVs and nobody stops them in the next minute you'll have 100 people do the exact same thing.

Wall Street has not been ruled by any sense of the law for a very long time. It was always corrupt but never has such blatant corruption been so transparent. Maddoff couldn't believe he got away with his scam. He kept thinking he'd be caught every day but then it just kept going on and he knew he had carte blanche to do whatever he wished. His scam would probably still be going on had it not been for the 2008-2009 collapse.

I bet plenty of Wall Street thieves sit around tables sipping scotch talking about how they can't believe how they get away with what they do. Wondering why nobody has come to cut their heads off. I do say that if you drop one hedge fund titan fro a 100 story building in Manhattan the price of oil, copper, and every other commodity would drop by 75% the next day. Wall Street does not fear the law, the government, the regulators, or for now the people. Only fear holds corruption in check and only the people can instill fear on Wall Street because the government and the regulators are already in their pockets.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:16 | 1568880 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I see no trouble at all, or any need for further billions in spending, not when the DOW is only 20 normal +100 trading days away from its all time highs! 

20 more days like today and we bust the record DOW high!

And theres clamoring for vast new stimulus spending? Let Wall St pay for it all, theyve never been better off! Top 3 US banks should provide unemployment, SNAP card, and welfare payment extensions!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:13 | 1568870 electronpaul
electronpaul's picture

Hyperinflation and hyperdeflation are our 2 choices. Hyperinflation is worse than hyperdeflation. In Hyperinflation, the people and their savings are decimated and costs for anything rise dramatically. Misallocation of resources by government intervention will continue.  In hyperdeflation, debt is erased and banks/creditors lose out, but they are the ones that could withstand it with all the cash on their balance sheets now. Law could be written in to force mark to market and loss amortization could take place over 10-15 years to lessen blow. Conusmer nominal prices decrease. Expansion is muted, but as debt is removed, the system can start to right itself.
Ron Paul 2012

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:22 | 1568910 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yea but these are uncharted waters, never been here before, ever. Even in Weimar, the money printing went to the people. So they had wheelbarrows full of money to buy a loaf of bread.

Not today, the money is only going to a few people, and totaly centrally controlled. So people have far less money with prices rising no matter what the liars say!

Hyperinflation or hyperdeflation, I dont think you can have either one where we're headed.

Besides, all this isnt just 'wrong headed economic thinking', and with the right guy in there, we can start bailing out and righting the Titanic', this is a long planned out scheme to collapse the world into total depression, where then the banksters can bring it all back up under a 1 govt and 1 currency prison planet.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:05 | 1569108 pods
pods's picture

I think that is a pretty logical scenario SD1.  All the efforts until now have been aimed at keeping us on this track.  First it was TARP, then the QEs that saved the banks, and let them heal their balance sheets through treasury arbitrage, skimming and interest on rock solid loans.  Now is when they try and slowly pull back on that while the banks can wait for defaults and claim the real property behind the loans called in.  The PTB will try and limit how fast this happens, as too fast will again implode the banks. If done just right the banks will have taken possession of the real property, while still maintaining solvency. (when I say that, I say that in our FASB fantasy world)

Then when enough of the property is stolen, a solution will be put forth.  Some new supranational currency will save us and allow us all to be some hard working amerikan serfs on the global banksters' plantation.

All according to plan.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 13:38 | 1569314 roccman
roccman's picture

was gonna happen anyway with the onset on peak oil

the blooddrinkers can only control timing (vis-à-vis ARMs in 2003-2007 timeframe - just as oil was peaking)

Peak Oil IS being defined by economic collapse.

The blooddrinkers have known of PO since the 50s (at least).

pretty basic math

and if i were king i would collapse the global economy masking the effects of PO.

once we all have been levelized (and NOT DRIVING) - there will be plenty of oil left for the top 50K and their personal security forces (read armies)


think about it

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:18 | 1568876 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

I would like to see a meme/movement begin which would assure congress critters that grabbing a seat on the super politburo commitee will guarantee they are primaried and voted out next election.  If the rumble is loud enough no one will dare "serve".  Promise of juicy power, perks and coin < danger of losing fat seat in corrupt congress.  Instead of fighting tooth and nail to get on, the usual suspects would get all coy.... Shumer "Oh no Nancy, you go ahead"   Nan "Oh fie Charlie, I owe you big time, you go ahead... have fun".

Oh yeah... RPFTW :-)

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:17 | 1568884 DavidC
DavidC's picture

I hope Ron Paul doesn't run, for the simple reason that if he were to become President, he would inherit this crap and would, thus, be a one term President. The following election would be straight back to the idiots who've destroyed the economy.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:20 | 1568897 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

Political banner of the year: "Long Term Spending Cuts" ...really really long term...

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:23 | 1568915 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yea, and spending cuts to what? Moms and pops medical, social security, 401K and pension annuitized under IRON FIST rules of compliance. What do people thing the 'spending cuts' will be to...congress pay and pork? LOL!

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:42 | 1568990 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

This is why Obama's strategy to kill the Tea Party will be "you dumb a** we have already agreed on a 100-year spending cut plan which goes into effect immediately when my successor comes into office".

Everyone on govt welfare agrees because they can only plan until next paycheck anyway..

Everyone in congress knows it means they have only good news to bring to their constituents..

Everyone in the military industrial complex knows it means no weapons systems will be sacrificed..

Hence this makes you 'electable'. Cutting spending 30 years ago with interest is kind of...too principled.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:25 | 1568919 mendigo
mendigo's picture

that stimulus thing is a very tired horse

are we really so ignorant

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:51 | 1569036 RSloane
RSloane's picture

NO, but our politicians are.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:27 | 1568929 Surly Bear
Surly Bear's picture

If you were serious about cutting spending you would freeze spending at 2011 levels, and cut 2 trillion from that amount to create the 2012 budget. This is the only cut in spending you and the current congress can deliver. Of course you won't ever do this so we're polishing the brass on a shinking ship.

Oh, what is Surly Bear's plan? I am glad you asked. Cut the corporate rate to zero. Corporations do not pay taxes. Their customers pay taxes or they go out of business. Eliminate all deductions, and set the personal rate at fifteen percent over 25K income. Income from investments should be taxed at the same level, and get the fuck out of the way because the economic activity will knock you on your ass.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:42 | 1568991 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

No , you would roll back spending to 2000 levels.


All this utter bull since then was forced in the name of bubble based security and worse scams.


2000 spending.



Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:57 | 1569072 Surly Bear
Surly Bear's picture

Year 2000 spending levels are more in line with reality. I was simply illustrating an actual cut in spending. I stand corrected, and bow to your wisdom. ;-)

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:42 | 1568987 SRV - ES339
SRV - ES339's picture

More disingenuous anti-Obama propaganda from Tyler, who could easily find similar conflicting debt ceiling Kabuki Theater quotes by almost every major member of both parties over the past 80 years or so… interesting approach from one supposedly playing the ethical, straight shooter role in the debate.

Of course, one can take comfort in the fact that Tyler’s suicidal (Tea Party) approach to the short term fiscal issues are irrelevant, and that saner heads will prevail at the end of the day.


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:53 | 1569049 RSloane
RSloane's picture

I'm sure you're still feeling that upper leg tingle everytime Obama speaks.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:58 | 1569080 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

Yea, just print the god damn money and get it done...

Those reckless Tea Partyers that want to balance the budget..

We don't need budgets, we need more spending to make up for the output gap..

Y = C + I + G bitches...


Wed, 08/17/2011 - 12:12 | 1569134 SRV - ES339
SRV - ES339's picture

You know... there is a reason why simple minded solutions to complex issues are popular... and almost always fail.

Wed, 08/17/2011 - 11:44 | 1568999 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

those saner heads will end up in a basket soon.


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