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"How Did You Not Notice 24-Year-Olds Were Being Paid $2 Million A Year Who Clearly Didn’t Know Anything?”

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Michael Lewis' scathing, aphoristic, uber-sarcastic style need no introduction. As such we will leave this brief clip from Slate, in which The Big Short author is asked how to avoid a new financial crisis, without much commentary (the answer is that under the current status quo system it is impossible to guarantee no more financial collapses, even if Glass-Steagall were to be unwound, but that is the topic for another story), suffice to point out the punchline: "future generations will wonder, “How did you not notice 24-year-olds were being paid $2 million a year who clearly didn’t know anything?” That pretty much sums it up right there.

 


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Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:11 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Hope and Change!

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:21 | Link to Comment MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

2 million dollars may be a lot of money to doomer day traders on zerohedge but trust me, to the pros it's nothing. Sales and flow traders at top tier investment banks laugh in the faces of nerdy ZH day traders. They are the smartest, savviest traders out there and they honestly don't care what you think, losers.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:23 | Link to Comment Q.E.easy
Q.E.easy's picture

Your slipping, this comment lacks all of what typically make your posts great to read.

Time for a new top tier troll, their half lives are getting shorter then CB interventions.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:30 | Link to Comment American34
American34's picture

This country needs change. This country needs to be forced to change by those who honestly know how to run a country. This country needs those who know how to run a country to stand together, stand up and force the current government to change. Without those with people showing that they have a pair and taking some risks standing together NOTHING will change. No leadership required, just honest patriots working together to accomplish a single goal. No bickering around. One goal, singular in interest backed by the few million patriots left can be accomplished.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:32 | Link to Comment spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

I'm 24. I know nothing. Where's my $2 million a year?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:57 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

I'm 2x your age BUT I know a bit more (Dang!).

Does that mean I get $1 million or $4 million?

Screw the Arabs and their math. How does this new Zimbabwe math work again?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:03 | Link to Comment spiral_eyes
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:38 | Link to Comment Thomas
Thomas's picture

Trillions of dollars are at stake if they cleave the industry as Michael suggests. Odds don't seem good (until we have yet another Death by Bongo, and then we will do some serious rehab on the system.)

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:43 | Link to Comment Stax Edwards
Stax Edwards's picture

I find myself in the same camp as ML.  I think to myself how ridiculous the "official" story of the financial collapse is.  We the people are supposed to believe that after hundreds if not thousands of years of banking history by which to go on, that all of the sudden some physicist (forget his name someone help me out here) came up with a formula by which prudent underwriting of loans was no longer needed.  And that we should abandon prudent underwriting now as it is no longer necessary.  Yeah right.  What a line of bull.  Now we can lend to people with no job and poor credit virtually any amount, because this phycisist came up with a new formula that can somehow distribute this risk.  It could not possibly be that since the big banks were using Other Peoples Money and therefore had no stake in the outcome that they really could care less as long as they got their fee out of the deal.  It is such a crock of shit. 

The moral hazard here is .gov is afraid to come out and say our biggest financial institutions are run by crooks.  Furthermore, these crooks own the FED, so we are apparantly SOL.   Unfortunately for the citizens who suffer we now condone fraud to benefit these bankers because they just cannot secure sufficient wealth for themselves by running legitimate banking operations.  No, as is typical of our gubbermint they would rather lie, obfuscate, deny, and generally cover up the banks wrong doing. Oh, and give em a few hundred billion for their hard work, of taxpayer money no less.  What a sad state of affairs.  Or throw some fines on them and also provide taxpayer money to pay said fines.  Move money from the left pocket to the right pocket in a show of solidarity with the citizens.

BTW, I don't think the deadbeats were the victims here.  No they got the couple year free ride they are used to getting.  The victims IMO were the prudent that put big down payments and now find themselves not only without equity but deep underwater.  They find that not only that, Bernanke has decided to further financially repress said people by not allowing them to earn any interest on their savings.  They find that they have lost their jobs and must spend their retirement money to get by.  Thomas Jefferson called it when he said first by inflation then by deflation....The banks will inherit the earth.  For the deadbeats, we have .gov programs to relieve them of responsibility.  For the prudent, the banks have their assets to attack if they walk. 

I only wish Fisher were serious when he said he supports breaking up TBTF's.  I fear this was lip service since they are the shareholders he reports to.  Gotta go vomit now, I am getting physically ill.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:59 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Got bad news for you, it's MUCH more systemic than your comments would suggest.

The ENTIRE system, sans all this BS even, is patently flawed.  It is based on perpetual growth on a finite planet.  No fiddling or other "massive overhaul" is going to correct a damn thing.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:55 | Link to Comment fnord88
fnord88's picture

Exactly. Capitalism based around constant inflation is the biggest fucking scam in the history of the world. It forces everyone to become speculators. And the more i read and think, the more i become convicned that specualtion is the root of many of our problems. Not just because it forces people to gamble with money they should be able to save, but because speculation is based around two competing emotions: fear and greed. Spend long enough with those two emotions dominating your personality; you turn into a psychopath. Seriously. 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:32 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

yours is an excellent post fnord88 - encapsulates a mindset that destroys with no regrets, only needs the feed of endorphins (gambling, etc.) to maintain existence.

that people are being shaped in this mold (financial reward for behaviours)is what needs to be acknowledged, before any changes can begin.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:08 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

what 24 year olds were really getting $2M a year?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:39 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Exactly. 

This is a stupid interview.  The average age in the industry is 60.  So there were a few geeks straight out of college that wrote some algos; who hired them?  WHose idea was it to implement the algo devices?  Old dudes that spend half their week on the golf course smoking cigars like they have their whole lives.

So a few kids made a few million.  That is nothing compared to the take home of the VPs and Partners.  We will look back on history and wonder how for the last 40 years the economy was destroyed by the Greatest Generation and their kids, and at the end, the Emporer asked Vader to join the Dark Side and he said yes.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:58 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Kiss ass while you bitch so you can get rich, but the boss gets richer off you."

Seriously though, I could do with a holiday in beautiful Cambodia right about now.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:29 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I've been to Kampuchea. And guess what? NOW I'M LIVING IN IT!

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:38 | Link to Comment economics1996
economics1996's picture

Capitalism works great.  Crony capitalism sucks.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:33 | Link to Comment ChrisFromMorningside
ChrisFromMorningside's picture

There were 24 year olds making high six figures though. And there were definitely people in their 30s making $2m.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 06:00 | Link to Comment The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Very few, but there were some 27 year-olds getting two million.  I once had an HR person say to me, "If I hear one more associate [that would be someone circa 24] tell me why they should be getting $200k I'm going to jump out that window."  Of course that was 1999 before the dot-com boom and the so-called "war for talent" which for some strange reason had I-Banks kissing the asses of un-proven analysts and associates for fear that all the talent would go there. This no doubt adjusted the analyst & associate pay levels up a bit, but I doubt the pay scale had jumped to $2m, and the current decline is merely a reversion to trend.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:30 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

all the girls have told me to ask you "who are these guys?" they want names...you know..."for the file"...

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:41 | Link to Comment JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

"Sources close to the situation named the suspect as 31-year-old Kweku Adoboli , who was working as UBS director of exchange traded funds and so-called Delta 1 trading, according to his profile on LinkedIn ."

Ok, how about 31.  Make you feel any better?

He lost $2 Billion.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 01:13 | Link to Comment swissbene
swissbene's picture

"""

Capitalism based around constant inflation is the biggest fucking scam in the history of the world. It forces everyone to become speculators. And the more i read and think, the more i become convicned that specualtion is the root of many of our problems.

"""

 

i disagree with this logic.  the problem as you state is not speculation, but rather the problem is that everyone is 'forced' to speculate.

this is an important distinction b/c the respective solutions are quite different.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:33 | Link to Comment fnord88
fnord88's picture

agree 100%, i should have been more clear. For those of us the enjoy risk, speculation is fine, its a way of getting ahead using brain power rather enslaving oneself to some company that does not give a shit about you.

 

For people like my mum though, who just retired after 45 years teaching disabled kids, who have only self funded superannuation, it's fucking evil. Government in australia forces you to put money into super, which is then ripped of by money managers with ridiculous fees, and then invested in the stock market only to lose most of it. Instead of being able to retire and live comfortably after a life of putting others first, now she, and her family, have to stress and worry about money probably until the day she dies. Makes me want to shoot somebody in the fucking head. 

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 02:40 | Link to Comment swissbene
swissbene's picture

absolutely infuriating.  i see this current post at zh:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/central-banks-assault-savers

 

aim carefully and godspeed.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:59 | Link to Comment economics1996
economics1996's picture

In the past before central banks and governments ripped off the people silver and gold protected peoples savings.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 05:05 | Link to Comment mushi
mushi's picture

"Spend long enough with those two emotions dominating your personality; you turn into a psychopath. Seriously. "

 

I seriously love you

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:56 | Link to Comment economics1996
economics1996's picture

fnord88 Great observation.

Tue, 03/06/2012 - 13:18 | Link to Comment Marla And Me
Marla And Me's picture

Alright, this is when I miss the old timers around here.  You are missing the final and crucial step in your analysis fnord88.  You talk about "constant inflation" like it is a given.  Why is there inflation in the first place?  Interest.  There is a very specific reason every single monotheistic religion rails against interest; the reality that is the exponential function in a finite universe.  Once you understand that, everything else becomes crystal clear, including the fact that complaining about it is completely useless.  What do you think is going to happen when the CBs destroy the sovereigns by offloading their liabilities onto them?  Where are Mako and B9K9 when you need them...

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:49 | Link to Comment Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Even worse news the sun is obviously immature and well the rest is obvious.

Nothing new or novel but don't let that get in the way.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:54 | Link to Comment Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

That physicist wrote a mathematical model based on the theories an economist or financial "expert" told him...

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:30 | Link to Comment ChrisFromMorningside
ChrisFromMorningside's picture

Don't "break up" the TBTFs. That is far too conciliatory and would prolong the time that Americans spend throwing their money into a financial black hole by keeping zombie banks on life support. Just let the TBTFs collapse entirely as should have been done on Day 1 and as will inevitably happen again without government intervention. Let that whole monstrous debt structure liquidate itself entirely.

The faster this is allowed to happen the more of America's "Main Street" (what is left of productive, non-subsidized, non-FIRE, industry) we save. America's "Main Street" is currently being asset-stripped by vulture financiers on a daily basis.

Don't worry about our foreign creditors. Most of them will find it hard to service their debt at one point or another too, as this whole fiat bubble deflates. The U.S. economy is currently a net destroyer of wealth. The enormous task that lies before us is to transform it into a net producer of wealth (once again). Once we solve that, most of the other problems we face (economic AND political) will seem relatively minor.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:41 | Link to Comment economics1996
economics1996's picture

Stax can I use this for a blog?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:50 | Link to Comment economics1996
economics1996's picture

There is a shit load of talent on the ZH board.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:51 | Link to Comment Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

No doubt just ask around. Can hit the search engines better than any other place in the history of mankind, cannot discern fact from fiction if given the f,c & t but that is immaterial.

GMAFBA never seen a place in real or cyber life with so many insecure know nothings who feel it necessary to cyber blow each other on a regular basis.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:28 | Link to Comment Think for yourself
Think for yourself's picture

"GMAFBA never seen a place in real or cyber life with so many insecure know nothings who feel it necessary to cyber blow each other on a regular basis."

Yep, you being a prime example of this. Hell, Trav, Hamy and AnAnon are more consistently useful, rhetorically sound and less noxious than your posts. I don't think I ever saw one of your "contributions", if we could call them that, bring anything to the table.

I have one tool that will be vital to your training, young Padawan. It's called a mirror. Come back once you've mastered its use, or don't come back at all - nobody could care less. 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 15:13 | Link to Comment Stax Edwards
Stax Edwards's picture

Absolutely, glad you liked my comment. 

I am debating about writing a white paper entitled "How to utilize the finance industry to rid a country of its middle class".  You know I just cannot think of a better way to do it than they did.  If that was the end goal, they are damn good at their jobs.  It has proved devastatingly effective.

 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:58 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Some fuel for your engine of truth:

http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/03/giant-21st-century-asset-grab.html?utm_source=Daily+Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=f42afcbcaf-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN
SEE LINK FOR VIDEO -- BELOW IS THE TRANSCRIPT

The Giant 21st Century Asset Grab
Sat, 03/03/2012 - 22:04 | Link to Comment economics1996
economics1996's picture

Thanks, will post it soon.

http://usa-wethepeople.com/

Someone else bogs with me, I am economics 9698.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:38 | Link to Comment economics1996
Sat, 03/03/2012 - 11:12 | Link to Comment Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

I find myself asking why people who bought the worthless paper yielding points higher than treasury paper yet somehow and mysteriously containing the same government guarantee were refunded losses after the fact.

I wonder at what point will the grown consenting adult aged supposed professional money manager responsible for chasing the extra return investing in crap he didn't undertsand also known as the buyer of the debt and therefore the creator of the market will be held responsible and not be considered a victim.

Not only could have Glass Seagull been in place flying over the banks and not have mattered-think it would have curtailed the activities of 2-3 banks at most- but the bankers could have worked for free and as long as they had dupes to offload the paper to it would not have mattered either.

But I get it, those damn evil banksters!

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 14:19 | Link to Comment WhatCouldGoWrong
WhatCouldGoWrong's picture

Stax--- the name you're looking for is David Li. A Chinese national now back in China and "not available" for comment about his "Gaussian Copula Function". The formula had the effect of eliminating prudent underwriting by providing a formula that "proved" all risk was equally correlated. Here's a good article about it...

 

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 15:21 | Link to Comment Stax Edwards
Stax Edwards's picture

Yes, that was the guy I was thinking of.

BTW, I don't blame him for the mess, he created the formula they paid him to create. 

I have to think from the banks perspective it was more like "Hmmmm.  There is a pile of money available out there for home loans.  Unfortunately there are not enough credit worthy borrowers, so we need a way on paper to show that giving these loans to deadbeats is a good idea.  Can we bring in someone from outside of the finance industry, because finance people know giving money to deadbeats is a losing proposition for someone, they might not go for it.  Lets find someone with a more abstract math background, physics maybe.  No one will ever understand the formula and we can just pay the ratings agencies whatever they need to rate the stuff AAA.  And IBGYBG (I'll be gone, you'll be gone) became the new IB mantra.  Loot as much as possible as fast as possible because this bitch is gonna blow sky high."

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 21:52 | Link to Comment WhatCouldGoWrong
WhatCouldGoWrong's picture

Stax... if one is of a conspiritorial mind, it may seem odd that a Chinese national comes into the NY hive of finance and presents this wonderfully hard to resist and permissive risk package. Its the bomb that will go off if touched.... The package is irresistable for touching, holding, and stroking. It's perhaps better than Stuxnet. Now, the presenter of the gift is back in the forbidden city and cannot be asked about his gift and its frightening and realized results. While we in the West think in terms of quarterly profits, China thinks in terms of decades and centuries. I fear we are playing checkers while they are playing chess.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:00 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

The good news is you have $100 Trillion. The bad news is that a loaf of bread is now $200 Trillion, a Big Mac is $500 Trillion, and a 40 pound bag of rice is $2 Quadrillion.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:26 | Link to Comment Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

This is a photo of a sign at a supermarket checkout in post-Apartheid South Africa: http://goo.gl/eLrao

Now, try to fit 20 trillion palm ideograms on the $100 trillion banknote...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:30 | Link to Comment spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

But I don't have 3 hands...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:09 | Link to Comment Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

From http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/humor/equation.html,

"Knowledge is Power
Time is Money
and as every engineer knows, Power is Work over Time.

So, substituting algebraic equations for these time worn bits of wisdom, we get:

  • K = P
  • T = M
  • P = W/T

... Solving for Money, we get:

 

  • M = W/K

Money equals Work Over Knowledge... we see that Money approaches infinity as Knowledge approaches 0, regardless of the Work done."

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:57 | Link to Comment Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

Nice...

Stupidity would be indeterminate then... 0/0...

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:43 | Link to Comment SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

Everything counts in large amounts

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:14 | Link to Comment Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

I'll do it for half and if you press me, a 1/4.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:47 | Link to Comment Milestones
Milestones's picture

To both you and -eyes, Bravo,bravo,bravo. Excellent repartee. Well done          MIlestones

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:40 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

How does this new Zimbabwe math work again?

______________________________________________

You mean US citizen math, right? Because Zimbabwe is irrelevant in the picture.

Kicking the can on the most irrelevant non participation as alas for US citizens, non participants are unequal in their non contribution, really shows how firm US citizens resolve to fix 'problems' is.

So wonderful. Please get me my seat by birth right among US citizens.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:56 | Link to Comment Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Spiral, you say you are 24 and know nothing.  That is not true.  You know you know nothing.  That places you light years ahead of the 24 year olds on Wall Street who know nothing and don't know they know nothing.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:04 | Link to Comment lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

and THAT is how they get the job.  they don't know anything, they don't consider the implications of what they are doing and they truly believe in a sociopath way that they deserve what they get and others deserve financial loss because they are 'stupid'  and that's why the 64 year olds hire them.  to do the thug work.

 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:33 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

enter "the "Geico flying pig"....

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:57 | Link to Comment Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

+100

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:00 | Link to Comment Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

What about the decrepit, moronic 73 year old incompetents on Wall Street that know nothing and never have...

See: Robert "The Rube" Rubin...

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:39 | Link to Comment ChrisFromMorningside
ChrisFromMorningside's picture

A lot of them are just hustlers with good social / interpersonal skiils, charisma, and good connections. Nothing more.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 04:37 | Link to Comment vato poco
vato poco's picture

"charming hustlers w/ good social skillz & connections".

And it's been that way for at least 35 years now. Can't rememebr the title, but Andrew Tobias wrote a book in the late '70's/early '80's describing 24-year-old Wall St punks making $600K - $2MM+ in today's "money" - who described their daily activities thusly: "My job is to bullshit the customer."

A little late to be getting pissy about it now. What next? Gonna complain about reruns on TV? Or too many commercials? Or shitty public schools? Those 24-year-olds move product and make quota, or they wouldn't be there; they make big bucks because you eat what you kill; and do you honestly expect corporate mgmt to give a shit about ethics or morality when ignoring them gets you a fatter bonus? They're not the real problem. They're like the scorpion in the fable: we *know* fucking the customer is their nature. The problem is the government that's whored itself out to 'em.

Yeah, the Wall St garbage are scummy. Yeah, they're destroying the system. But I submit they're still better than the legions of highly-paid technocrats on Uncle Sugar's payroll busily engaging in social engineering on our dime. As is constantly said on ZH, I can always refuse to do bidness with the charming hustlers and blatantly crooked markets. The government's a little more corrupt, ("We see no reason to hold Jon Corzine responsible for the theft of customer funds that happened on his watch as CEO at MFG."), and a lot more insistant that I obey their diktats. Or else. 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:17 | Link to Comment barroter
barroter's picture

I agree. Social skills and a nice sociopathic personality are the key to rising to the top.  Almost like how scum rises to the top of a pond during a hot summer day.  I swear this holds true for most of your CEO's and governing boards as well. 

Talent? Only Gold Medal winning Professional Liars are promoted. 

I find captialism cannot exist w/o a HUGE does of fraud. 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:18 | Link to Comment eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

I'm 48...where's my $4 million?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:08 | Link to Comment Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You're a Gen X Nomad.  You will lead the tit suckers into battle.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 07:52 | Link to Comment johnnynaps
johnnynaps's picture

When they write about this period of time in the history books, I would rather go down as leading the tit suckers who awoke to find their country in disarray than being a manipulative paper-pusher that did nothing but screw their countymen over.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:48 | Link to Comment Nate Dog
Nate Dog's picture

No $4M for you... you know too much.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:54 | Link to Comment non_anon
non_anon's picture

young,dumb and full of cum

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:15 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

I'm completely fucked when it comes to maths. That should make me emminently employable by the big HFTs.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:24 | Link to Comment Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You know nothing but it's just over the hill there son, and your sisters got it there right under the carpet.  Mommy left it there special, waiting just for you.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 05:41 | Link to Comment non_anon
non_anon's picture

lmfao

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:33 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:37 | Link to Comment American34
American34's picture

Those who are ready need a name. Those who are ready need a way to work together. A way to discuss ideas and a place to meet and organize. Those who are ready also need a way to let others know, to let the country know that there will be change. Period. This country will no longer stand for fraud, special interests and the all powerful corporations. This government needs to KNOW that people should not be afraid of their governements. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:47 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

Conrad and American, you echo my thoughts. Conrad, I kept the links you gave.

The trouble is that the most effective action will not be openly talked about.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:55 | Link to Comment American34
American34's picture

No one said anything about being open. What is needed can only be open to those who remember what this country once stood for and has long been forgotten by most. As for the most "effective" actions I must disagree. The most effective actions are still legal. The most effective actions are still able to be performed by anyone who desires to take part. Free Speech is still legal. Freedom of Assembly is still legal. Actions are needed but those actions must be well coordinated under a single name and for a single undivided purpose that is unfragmented due to political and personal issues.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:28 | Link to Comment Iwanttoknow
Iwanttoknow's picture

Heard of NDAA?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:48 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John Stuart Mill

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:15 | Link to Comment Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Cultural Rot made for modern bitchez!!  It ain't over till men say it's over and they won't  tap out, so it's going to be a fun ride to the end.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:21 | Link to Comment Joseph Jones
Joseph Jones's picture

"Those who hate me (God) love death."  Proverbs (applies to war mongers including John Stuart Mill)

"There's always a quick and easy way to end war: loose."  George Orwell

 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:48 | Link to Comment Moon Pie
Moon Pie's picture

Well said, CM, and a hard saying at that.  Yet another hard saying was uttered by a man closely acquainted with the thing..

"War is all hell...and the more of it there is, the sooner it will be over." - William Tecumseh Sherman

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:55 | Link to Comment Think for yourself
Think for yourself's picture

I have to disagree with you. The most effective actions, while thoroughly legitimate, are for the most part not legal. They are beyond legality, for it is a necessity to start by ignoring the self-proclaimed righteousness of the system if we are to disenfranchise it of its unfounded claim on authority.

Within this matrix, free speech's legality is predicated on submitting to the system's control grid, which defines constraints - free speech zones - which are the walls of the prison within which one is allowed to exercise his "freedom", a concept that can only be sustained through a level of Newspeak that Orwell himself would have dreaded.

Freedom of assembly is predicated on submitting to the whims of the system's control grid, again, who is legally empowered to take position - according to crowd motivation, goals, subject being protested, location and so on - and declare your "free assembly" to be an unlawful assembly. Non-compliance of dispersal orders are then met with what is considered as justified force, state-sanctionned violence that flows naturally from this whole charade, a house of cards built on foundations of illusory legitimacy.

Or have you already forgotten Pittsburgh's G20? The storm troopers felt no remorse in applying this violence against non-threatening groups of common middle class citizens. The next step of escalation will be using military issue electromagnetic directed energy weapons, AKA phased microwave arrays, "active denial systems". Citizens will literally be cooked with long-range torture cannons for using their right to "free speech" and "freedom of assembly".

Please also note that this situation is common-place, seen all over the country especially lately in the Occupy protests, and the consumership has been conditionned into seeing this as normalcy over the last few years. This necessarily means that we will soon see a new escalation, a quasi-ultimate warming up of the frog's bathwater in eager preparation for boiling point.

At any time, submitting to the system's claim on legitimacy throws one into an endless maze of flawed logic, twisted rhetoric, biased opinions and unjustified assumptions. This is the entire purpose of the legal system. From the moment this maze is willfully entered - consciously or not - by conceding one's sovereignty to the artificial authority structure of the system, the game is lost. One cannot let oneself lose from sight the corrupt roots of the system, lest he be assimilated.

So this is already designed to eliminate any opportunity for the citizen to win, even before applying such paralegal measures as the Patriot Act or the NDAA.

Legitimacy can only originate from an effective action's respect of the sovereignty of all individuals concerned. So-called legality from the system's imposed paradigm can not be considered without losing effectiveness. If any effective action is still legal at this time, it is only because the totalitarian tiptoe has not yet allowed the globalist dictatorship to legislate it yet.

Suggested Project Mayhem assigment du jour: read The Coming Insurrection by The Invisible Commitee. Distribute according to your perception of said material's critical nature.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:21 | Link to Comment Terrorist
Terrorist's picture

Thanks for the link

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:22 | Link to Comment barroter
barroter's picture

 "by ignoring the self-proclaimed righteousness of the system if we are to disenfranchise it..."

There's a line in the opening of the movie Michael Collins where Eamon de Valera is penning a letter.  The last lines paraphrased are, "Michael, we will defeat the British Empire by ignoring it!"

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:19 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

There’s no reason to react to the news of the day, but to understand each
information given as an operation carried out on a hostile battlefield full of strategies
to decode, an operation aiming precisely to stir up some certain reaction or another
among some group of people or another, and to see that operation itself as the real
news contained within the apparent news.

There’s no more reason to expect or wait for anything – to expect that it will all blow
over, that the revolution will come, a nuclear apocalypse or a social movement. To
wait anymore is madness. The catastrophe isn’t coming; it’s here. We’re already
situated within a civilization’s movement of collapse. And we have to take part in it.

To stop waiting means to enter into insurrectionary logic in one way or another. It
means to begin to hear, once again, in the voices of our rulers, that trembling of
terror that’s never really left them. Because to govern has never meant anything but
to hold back, by a thousand subterfuges, the moment when the crowd will string you
up – and every act of government is nothing but another way to keep from losing
control over the population.

The Coming Insurrection by The Invisible Commitee.

 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:15 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

"those who remember what this country once stood for and has long been forgotten by most."

Natives, blacks etc...

Let me guess, you're WHITE, yes?

TPTB will only allow actions up to a point.  And even if those actions are "legal" we will find that they become "illegal" should there be sufficient enough participants.

As long as you have "leaders" you have given up some of your power; this makes you less and makes "them" more.  Kind of silly to expect that getting more "hole" gives one firmer ground to stand on...

I prefer Buckminster Fuller's comment that it's better to create an alternative system that makes the existing obsolete.  The current corrupt systems survive because people try to change and or eliminate them (direct challenge, which bring on increased militarized backlash).

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:29 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

Natives, blacks etc...Let me guess, you're WHITE, yes? TPTB will only allow actions up to a point.

The 'white', the 'middle-class', the 'middle-aged', the 'middle' didn't really know much about who They were coming for, before. Didn't really do much looking into things. It used to be (commonly) assumed that there was One God, One Country, One Justice For All. And if that didn't happen well it was only on the edges to fringe types who prolly 'deserved' it anyways.

Little did 'we' know that the fringes would slowly become most of us.

Little do They know that when enough of the public has reason NOT TO trust Them, Their power is coming to its end.

From The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, 1974, Gil Scott-Heron:

No knock, the man will say
To keep that man from beating his wife
No knock, the man will say
To keep people from themselves

...

For my protection?
Who's gonna protect me from you?
The likes of you?
The nerve of you?
Your tomato face deadpan
Your dead hands ending another freedom fan

No knockin', head rockin', inter-shockin'
Shootin', cussin', killin', cryin', lyin'
And bein' white

But if you're wise, no knocker
You'll tell your no-knockin' lackeys
Ha!
No knock on my brother's head
No knock on my sister's head
No knock on my brother's head
No knock on my sister's head

And double lock your door
Because soon someone may be no-knockin'
Ha, ha!
For you

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:56 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

what you're really describing,

It used to be (commonly) assumed that there was One God, One Country, One Justice For All. And if that didn't happen well it was only on the edges to fringe types who prolly 'deserved' it anyways.

is a collective narcissism promoted by Patriotism, Nationalism, Religion, etc. - at the expense of Truth - which is being shown to people as they wake up to the Reality that they are not the centre of the universe, nor is what they believe in.  to think this is to be trapped in a two-year old's mentality - ME!!

for amrkns, this means Disneyland is not real, you're not "#1", no one hates you for your "freedoms" but they MAY hate you for your military bases in THEIR countries worldwide, or for overthrowing THEIR elected governments continually - in fact, as the rest of the world now gets some recognition, and attention - thanks to the INTERNET which is breaking down nationstate MYTHS daily - it's becoming very obvious that "One Anything" is a LIE.

time to grow up, accept that there are other humans in the world, who don't look like, think like, dress like, eat like,

YOU.

(not aimed at you Renfield, just using your words)

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:01 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

I hear you, and agree. Personally, I am glad to be awakening, and each day more and more awake. Ironically, also more in solidarity with my brothers and sisters in this burgeoning global underclass.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:25 | Link to Comment Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

One of the obese underclass that owns a car and a home? or just one of those living in the upper .00000001% of all time mankind whining because he is not .000000005% higher?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:14 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

heh, no. Not obese or noticeably overweight, don't own a car or a home, don't have a car payment or a mortgage either, seeing as you asked. If you're asking about me personally, one little cog in the wheel, my face looks pretty much the same as millions of others. Also not sure what percentage or class my lifestyle falls into except the one important class, that I am not one of the fascists.

But in the end, isn't that all that matters? Whether you are, or are not, a fascist...which side you are on.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:56 | Link to Comment Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Yes good job assimilating. 99.9999% of zerobrains has no clue what it is like to suffer under oppressive fascism and they insult those who have, constantly bandying about the word while they enjoy an existence commensurate with royalty.

 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 15:08 | Link to Comment Best Satan in Town
Best Satan in Town's picture

blatant example of clandestine disinfo op.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:58 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

The 'white', the 'middle-class', the 'middle-aged', the 'middle' didn't really know much about who They were coming for, before. Didn't really do much looking into things. It used to be (commonly) assumed that there was One God, One Country, One Justice For All. And if that didn't happen well it was only on the edges to fringe types who prolly 'deserved' it anyways.

_________________________________________________

That is pretty easy rewriting. Very inaccurate.

US citizens've known and supported. They've condoned, they've encouraged.

There are losers and there are winners. One gets what one deserves.

The US middle class has been very active in any process promoted by US citizenism. They simply perceive themselves as perpetual winners who should never join the side of losers, through various rationalizations.

Those called sheeple are called unproperly. They are simply US citizens who still win and thus, will consider anyone questioning the framework, the rules as a loser.

US citizens do not disagree with what is going on, they merely dont want to be tossed to the wrong side of US citizenism.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:49 | Link to Comment Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Roadside shitting blobbing nose picking chinese citizenism question CPC overloaders.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:19 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

The trouble is that the most effective action will not be openly talked about.

I agree. But that action is being talked about somewhere, of that there should be no doubt. Everyone is waiting for the right moment, for someone else to jump first. Nothing like a bit of chaos to get things started.

10s of millions of people turned out for the general strike in India a few days ago. People in Spain, Egypt, and Canada are doing the same. Occupy is looking to have a general strike in the US on May Day. There are millions more around the world waiting as stated above.

Find the opportunities, leverage existing movements, and direct the anger towards the banksters and politicians. We are all in this together, and the time has finally come.

See you in the streets May 1!

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:24 | Link to Comment American34
American34's picture

The May Day idea is a great idea but one that needs work. There MUST be an organized effort. An effort that CANNOT be missed, cannot be ignored. There needs to be a network of people organized around a plan. It must be leaderless but led by a single idea, Freedom and Equality. This network of people must perform actions that cannot be ignored and cannot be forgotten. There actions must take place continually to remind those in power that we will never give up.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:39 | Link to Comment CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Take your "equality" and shove it. You can have freedom. Or you can have state-forced "equality". Not both. However, I just did my bit: quit my increasingly pay-less job. No more taxes to ZOG.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:44 | Link to Comment American34
American34's picture

Mr. CompassionateFascist, your statement is utter crap and you know it. You are simply angry at something or someone in your life and taking it out on this forum. Freedom, true freedom IS equality. State forced equality is NOT equality at all for it is an illusion by distribution of societies resources in an inappropriate manner. A welfare state will NEVER succeed for the simple fact that something given has no value. A true State is one who allows those within its borders to have the Freedom to accomplish their life's ambitions without being hindered by unfair law and taxation.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 02:38 | Link to Comment swissbene
swissbene's picture

reads like propaganda.  i am not making any statement as to if this is intentional.

if 'a' implies 'b' [narrowly qualified] as you suggest: then simply require 'a'.  if instead you argue some 'b' external to 'a' is also required: then do not pretend equivalence.

'a' alone requires significant clarification.  the status quo is unacceptable but need precision as things get going.  law, taxes, and money system are somewhat precise and provide good place to start.

personally i agree with post above [edit: 'Think for yourself' post for clarity ... apropos handle] that states difference between challenging system -- internal logic vs exogenous -- well said.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:16 | Link to Comment piceridu
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:43 | Link to Comment forward ho
forward ho's picture

under what banner shall we stand? how shall we comunicate? how shall we organize? look around you, honestly. all the exits have been blocked. there is no egress. the revolution will not be televised.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:21 | Link to Comment randfan
randfan's picture

Conrad, I read it and don't necessarily hate it.  However, what concerns me isn't what you oppose, but rather what you propose in the alternative, which, as far as I can see is nothing. 

 

My problem with both the Tea Party and OWS is that it's clear what they hate, but not what they like and what they want.  I feel like you could ask 100 different Tea Partiers or OWSers what they want and get 100 different answers.  I'm all for hating bankers and, while I'm at it,  DMV workers too, but unless you propose an alternative practice, it's not clear to me how either of those jobs get done. I certainly don't want my government allocating capital; and, i certainly don't want an egalitarian society.

 

(Make no mistake about it, in an egalitarian society government makes ALL the decision and there are certain burger joints, italian roast beef places and cheesesteak joints i want to continue enjoying and i don't want my government determining how capital gets allocated, and that includes which restaurants get funded.  You can't be a little pregnant with a government run economy so things you take for granted today would be lost if the government allocated capital.  In the fantasy egalitarian utopia paying off politicians is merely replaced by paying off bureaucrats.)

 

If you want to fix America's problems, cut the White House Staff and Congressional Staff budgets to 0.  That will force the lobbyists -- liberal, conservative, corporate, union, etc. -- to aimlessly walk the halls of these hallowed institutions with no one to talk to, promise jobs to, and take on junkets, private planes, great strip joints, fancy meals and so on.

 

Today, Congressmen and women don't make decisions or write bills.  Their staffs in coordination with lobbyists and special interest law firms do.

 

Cut staff budgets to 0, and easily influenced staffers' (and subsequent revolving door) disappear.  There's no plum Goldman or Think-tank jobs to offer these influence-peddling sponges because there will be no one to offer these plum jobs to.  Congressmen and women will have to write either their own bills or no bills at all.  The day of the 2000 page bill complete with special interest handouts will no longer exist.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:56 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

Randfan, I see where some might want to avoid the chaos of 'revolution' since so many of them end badly, sometimes worse off than before.

Just after the American Revolution, which led to the founding of a great republic, was the French Revolution, which led to the Terror and then the Emperor.

But the way I see it there is no avoiding terror, casualties, heavy losses and blood. Once that tipping point gets reached and leaders emerge (and it will and they will), there will be no thinking out of reasonable alternatives. Time and process are, at this point, only aiding the fascists, and the best we can do is try to topple what we know is evil and try our best to replace it then with something good, given whatever circumstances there will be at that time. I don't believe realistically there is much point to planning far ahead since the chaotic change will be unpredictable.

For me, it would be enough to start resisting, overthrowing, and punishing or executing the criminals who are in power. I would be content to replace them with individuals who may (or may not) turn out to be better. Either way it will be a risk. At this point I am perhaps a sans-culottes.

Don't know if it is completely unclear, what I am trying to say. But if for example, as you say, you "cut the White House Staff and Congressional Staff budgets to 0", I say just try it. If you try to do this and *actually start seeing some success*, my prediction is that *very success* will be the beginning of a chaotic revolution as the fascists then crack down, and your attempt at process will begin the chaos of change itself.

The fascists need everything to stay in place, just as it is, and continue to grow as they've set it in motion. They will crack down on ANY SIGNIFICANT changes to this, and beyond that no-one can see to plan alternatives. I think attempting to hold back until a reasonable replacement system is thought through is going to prove futile.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:02 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Ha, I actually wrote out something very similar to this, particularly the, "Time and process are, at this point, only aiding the fascists", aspect, focusing on NDAA/SOPA/ACTA/etc.

I deleted it and changed it to what I have posted below as I didn't want to leave the impression I was ducking what is a very important question.

Thank you for the post.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:25 | Link to Comment randfan
randfan's picture

Jeez...ok...well, good luck...let me know how it works out for you. 

 

As for your French Revolution, how'd that work out for the French?  Pretty sure it was followed by an autocratic emperor (modernly referred to as a dictator) named napoleon who threw Europe into decades of war -- not exactly nirvana.

 

Funny thing about your comment is that while our founding fathers were laying out an intellectual and philosophical foundation/blueprint for a new government and a new republic before they ever discussed revolution and war, you're laying down revolution and war as your solution before you lay out any philosophical and intellectual foundation for your new government.

 

I recommend you go a little silent on the revolution thing until you actually say something -- anything -- intellectually meaningful about the future you intend to create.  Anarchy may sound fascinating, although I really can't figure out why, but anarchy is always proceeded by autocracy.  Order in any society is necessary and desired, even among the four-legged creatures roaming the Seregeti. 

 

As noted in my post above -- ask 100 OWSers what they want, as opposed to what they hate, and get 100 answers.

 

It has never failed that I always regret posting a comment on this board.  When I read the comments at ZH, I, invariably, begin to question what must be wrong with me to find the content on this site interesting.

 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 01:13 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

As for your French Revolution, how'd that work out for the French? Pretty sure it was followed by an autocratic emperor (modernly referred to as a dictator) named napoleon who threw Europe into decades of war -- not exactly nirvana.

For someone who is so intellectually superior and loathe to post as there is no exchange that can meet your lofty expectations of discourse, you sure are dense.

Renfield said: the French Revolution, which led to the Terror and then the Emperor.

Why don't you hop off your high horse, get down in the mud with feeble-minded peasants who are incapable of meaningful discussion, and tell us what a superior being such as yourself is expecting? What are your goals for a post-revolution society? What principles of the classical liberal school of thought do you hold most dear? How can they be modified, if they should be, to be brought into the modern era of technological saturation?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:09 | Link to Comment Renfield
Renfield's picture

The point...you have missed it.

"ask 100 OWSers what they want, as opposed to what they hate, and get 100 answers"

Sounds like you've already heard from heaps of people, just in your experience alone, who have given you 100 answers for "philosophical and intellectual foundation for your new government" to use your words. Now you want to hear one from me too, do you, to make it 101? Or are you still waiting to hear the perfect plan so you can run out and vote for that guy? (Preferably not from OWS?) I notice Conrad Murray gave the sort of reply you're demanding, just a comment or two down, and you did not engage it. Perhaps that could be Plan #101?

To reprise my point above, you cannot predict the unpredictable, or map out what will emerge from this side of chaos, and it is interesting to speculate but pointless to wait. Revolution will come and with it the risk of a better or a worse outcome. The only thing that is certain, is that as soon as you begin on Step One of creating this "new foundation for new government" and so on, in any significant way, you will spark the chaos of change and revolution. Your only hope of avoiding this, is by doing what you evidently recommend: Nothing.

Does that make it clearer?

"I recommend you go a little silent on the revolution thing until you actually say something -- anything -- intellectually meaningful"

Heh. Thanks for the tip. But I think I'll risk disappointing you even further by continuing to discuss the fight against fascism, and my own efforts to defeat it wherever possible.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:50 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Pretty sure it was followed by an autocratic emperor (modernly referred to as a dictator) named napoleon who threw Europe into decades of war -- not exactly nirvana.

___________________________________________________

Napoleon: crowned emperor in 1804

Napoleon: ended in waterloo in 1815

That is decades indeed.

That is not the point actually. The US has been at war for decades (real this time) without having that dictator in charge that could explain it.

So your US citizen view of the world shows that you do not care about wars, what you care about is suffering from wars and/or not living off the war dividends as so many US citizens do.

I am pretty sure that during that period of time,1804 to 1815, a number of french managed to achieve what you look for. So it should have worked for them.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 04:07 | Link to Comment ChrisFromMorningside
ChrisFromMorningside's picture

Despite being an autocratic emporer, Napoleon also enacted legal reforms that set the stage for modern civil and property law and economic reforms that led to the manumission of tens of millions of debt slaves/serfs/peons. The French Revolution gave us glimpses of open democracy, but it wasn't sustainable. That doesn't mean it didn't result in meaningful, progressive reforms. The lesson is that open democracy is actually an achievement, not a natural state for human society. It requires a lot of variables coming together. It requires a lot of hard work and active effort. We only achieved it in any meaningful, sustainable, way on a large scale a few hundred years ago. It seems we're losing grip now.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 08:12 | Link to Comment uniman
uniman's picture

Ok, since you asked... here's my wish list....

We start by considering that all people are individually sovereign. They may choose to create tribes that promote their mutual well being and defense but these tribes can never "govern" anybody against their will.

The rules of a sensible tribe would state that adults are responsible for their children, that the children do not have the ordinary rights of political participation that the adults do. The children may be born into a system they do not agree with and will be free to leave when they so choose or they can officially join the tribe when they're old enough to decide.

We must exterminate the idea that all of physical space must be controlled by some small number of governments, acting in collusion, to control all the people. In today's world, literally the entire Universe is claimed by governments. The UN Outer Space treaty mandates that all governments maintain control over "their" f/a/r/m/ /a/n/i/m/a/l/s/ nationals in space. There is literally no place that a dissident can go to escape this system. This condition is neither inevitable nor tolerable.

The tribes must control some amount of natural resources such as water and land. This is the foundation of their physical ability to live somewhere. In the beginning, there is no need to buy or rent this land. The tribe will take and hold it. There is lots of unused land that can be liberated in this way with a minimum of loss to other people. For example, who owns the "national forests" and how did they obtain title?

The tribes will learn to deal with each other in a peaceful manner. Some tribes will try to dam the river upstream from the other tribe, poison the water, setup roadblocks, etc. This is called being-a-dick and they'll get their asses kicked for trying. Eventually everybody will settle down to a minimum state of conflict. Sometimes they will fight and this is how they will mutually control each other.

I said "minimum level" of fighting not zero. We must learn that fighting is something that can never be stopped, only minimized with prudent management, and that it's better to tolerate a constant low-level background hiss of small scale conflict, then it is to pretend that not already the case while simultaneously setting the entire human race at risk of mutually assured destruction.

Some tribes will become evil and attempt to extend their influence too far such as by governing people against their will or laying claim to too many natural resources. This is a universal problem in today's world, so the fact that some of the much smaller and more tractable tribes will likely play the same tricks is an improvement on the status quo.

We must learn that there is nothing that can be done on a humanity-wide basis. We cannot control human population, pollution, resource depletion, climate change, etc. We can only attempt to minimize these ills and adapt. There are many approaches for mitigation that do not involve global totalitarian government. General Malthus will have the last word on all of these issues and hopefully some of the tribes will survive.

The collection of all the tribes will constitute a political marketplace. Given thousands of sovereign tribes there would undoubtedly be a tribe that's amenable to any particular political belief. Instead of being chained to the evil systems of today's world, wouldn't it be better to be able to find a tribe more suitable to our individual likings?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:52 | Link to Comment Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Rand Fan - It is always wise to draw sample from multiple places/environments. No need to beat yourself up as to the reason you came here. Positive legalism is still idelology, but I am a big fan of Rand for her inviting people in her home every week as an interesting, focus group for moral framework. To me, Ms. Rand was a state philosopher of high caliber. Her failing was to reach out toward the people, to speak power directly to the State like Aristotle once did. Authors are seldom Statesman/Woman. Good job on being able to reach out Randian!

You are correct to advise a group clearly stating what they want in forming objectives. This is common sense, the logic of to be or not to be. Further, the objective needs to offer the people something better or it will merely get one imprisoned for being agitated. The underlying reason for the angst may be righteous but without objective context/support jail sentences will be in vain.

The solution is a 5D government model. Five branches of government. This model has tens of thousands of representatives. Here is my email jrines@ragingdebate.com or 603-953-3388 if you want to talk about it objectively.

I myself am growing tired of 'reaching out' and being told I am not known so no meaningful debate. The reality Randian is like so many other things in life, timing is everything. I will reach out for awhile longer before I consider other options.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:56 | Link to Comment Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

You are correct. Most OWS want government to fix the things that bother them.

Most Tea Party want government to fix what bothers them.

Both have still made the mistake of thinking government is the answer to the problem, reality is it is the problem.

We can minimize the problem by minimizing the government. The first step in that is removing the ability to print money as they need it. All the FedGov power comes from the ability to print money.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:56 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

I appreciate your perspective and am grateful for the reasoned response. I did the TEA Party thing, I helped start OWS in my city, and "What comes after?" is a question I've heard asked many times.

It's not very easy to give a concrete response. Each country, each culture is different. However, I won't hide behind that and not offer some possibilities, which may come off as rather radical or impossible. Let us remember the context though, we are speaking of a post revolutionary time, and nothing should be impossible, however uncomfortable.

For the United States of America there is already a fairly solid groundwork laid out in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. I would suggest the following changes:

1. Abolish the Federal Reserve
2. Abolish the 16th Amendment
3. Abolish the 17th Amendment
4. Abolish legal tender laws
5. Affirm the 10th Amendment's true intention
6. Affirm the 2nd Amendment's true intention
7. Hold a series of Nuremberg style trials to hold the traitors in the NY/DC Axis of Evil accountable

In a general, worldwide sense, I would like to see a transition to more decentralized systems of government. More freedom, less interventionism, more peace, more adherence to the "Platinum Rule"(golden rule variant).

All of this will require great cultural change, and, therefore, is hard to achieve. But, if America could get back to its roots as a beacon of prosperity, liberty, and decency(yes, I recognize there was genocide and slavery, I hope we are past that), others would be more than willing to walk the path as well. That said, there is no reason America has to be the leader. The people of any country can step up and guide others.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 04:06 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

For the United States of America there is already a fairly solid groundwork laid out in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

___________________________________________

You know, the nineteenth century is gone with the resources US citizens squandered.

It made me laugh though that in the sequence of comments, one comes with claiming the US constitution lays a good basis.

The US Constitution works just as fine as it did in the 19th century. That it does not work for you is no different than the fact it did not work for multiple people during the 19th.

Are complaining US citizens that special that they should get a treatment others did not? Maybe throwing in a few arguments would help.

That stuff did not work for the Indians. As their resources are gone, so they are.

Do you really think that the Indians have still the resources to propell that marvellous social engineering of your Founding Fathers?

US citizens are so duplicitous.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:02 | Link to Comment Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Indians were not and are not citizenim of the United States, so it is not and was not their governing document, road side shitting nose picker.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 04:51 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

1. Abolish the Federal Reserve
2. Abolish the 16th Amendment
3. Abolish the 17th Amendment
4. Abolish legal tender laws
5. Affirm the 10th Amendment's true intention
6. Affirm the 2nd Amendment's true intention
7. Hold a series of Nuremberg style trials to hold the traitors in the NY/DC Axis of Evil accountable

8. Add another Amendment:  "Congress SHALL MAKE NO Law abridging the freedom of Production or Trade." (or clarify the interstate commerce clause so that it's no longer a catch-all for Congressional Power!)

9. Abolish fractional reserve banking and set the maximum interest rate to something reasonable:  7% (or thereabouts).

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 08:17 | Link to Comment Ol Man
Ol Man's picture

Forget the U.S. Constitution.  It didn't stop the government from overstepping its bounds and causing the Whiskey Rebellion, it didn't stop Lincoln from using dictatorial powers during the Civil War and it hasn't stopped the Bankers from getting their hands into every facet of American life.

Stop electing people to be your mother or to tell other people what they can and cannot do.

The free market should set interest rates, they should never be set by fiat.

Ol Man

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 11:52 | Link to Comment Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Conrad, there is nothing to "go back to". Physics tells me there is only a brake on the train, fast or slow forwards. The United States government has made too many promises it can't keep. Printing buys those in power a clean exit for themselves.

Printing until $6 gas happens is likely the same effect as telling 2/3rds of the country they are getting half of what is promised. It's silent default and for the reason I stated.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't your idea basically calling for a Constitutional Convention? I wouldn't bother. The delegates showing up would be the current lobbyists of the big corporations, especially bankers.

My speculation is America will have a new government within a decade. Three branch government does not factor in the lure and importance of credit. Make banking a fourth branch and the military 5th. More checks and balances with this model. Then have thousands of representatives as the Founders envisioned. More we grow the more reps per population so it becomes impossible (at least for a long time) for government to be bought.

Consider giving existing power options to evolve, a way out (when the time comes).

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:37 | Link to Comment resurger
resurger's picture

                                                                     

                                      

 

                                                 The Big Short (Part 2)

                                                              Directed By:

                                                              Michael Lewis

                                                                Starring

                                                              Jon Corzine

                             ISDA & many other countless douchbags & Central Banks

 

                                            Coming Soon 2012

 

 

 

 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:59 | Link to Comment oogs66
oogs66's picture

The scary thing is if LTRO had been done in July, corzine would be even richer instead of facing jail time

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:53 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

This country needs change. This country needs to be forced to change by those who honestly know how to run a country. This country needs those who know how to run a country to stand together, stand up and force the current government to change.

Did I miss the part where you tell us who those people are?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 23:56 | Link to Comment GottaBKiddn
GottaBKiddn's picture

 

That sounds almost like it came from the Obama re-election commitee. I'm sure they have a few "Czars" to spare.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:44 | Link to Comment Q.E.easy
Q.E.easy's picture

Really? -3?

I guess that touched a nerve with all the former top tier trolls. I feel honored to have incited their wrath.

 Update: -5!

 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:17 | Link to Comment SPAREPARTS
SPAREPARTS's picture

Better to ignore some stuff, kinda like it didnt happen. we have better entertainment to chuckle over. Millions is alot of money, most people I know think it is too,

 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:20 | Link to Comment Nobody For President
Nobody For President's picture

Absolutly, QE. Lacks his (or her) usual subtle nuance that barely has a tiny wiff of sarcasm. Must have been in a hurry. And why all the down arrows? Do folks think you are taking him seriously, and that is, of course, a no-no.

If ZH is to continue its greatness, we must always demand top-tier work from our trolls.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:17 | Link to Comment Q.E.easy
Q.E.easy's picture

Anything less is an insult to all the other great trolls that have come before him, and will doubtlessly come afterwards.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:20 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I would have prefered "think
losers" rather than a comma myself. and of course an appropriate youtube manifestaion of a what a Wall Street trader actually goes through in little more than day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ja6b7a5mmDI

"and then does it again."

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:26 | Link to Comment Bill the Cat
Bill the Cat's picture

Thwbbpt!

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:28 | Link to Comment Dealer
Dealer's picture

MDB, go troll somewhere else.  Your material is stale and you're an ass clown.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:39 | Link to Comment prains
prains's picture

MDB_ your fatgina really let out a stinker that time

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:41 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

That was a really lame effort MDB.  Usually I get a kick out of your posts, what a disappointment this one was.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:59 | Link to Comment Random_Robert
Random_Robert's picture

I wanna be just like MDB...

 

 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:17 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Ya ! They are real savvy with your Trillions of Tax Dollars. MORON!

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:24 | Link to Comment Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

Troll

 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:43 | Link to Comment Raincheck
Raincheck's picture

Same folks worried about whether the dog walker will get fido or fluffy out for their daily walk I suppose.  Lots of money, but that's about where it ends.  I forget, are we supposed to be impressed with your "savviness".  Hope the paycheck is something that makes you feel good about yourself cause in the scheme of things it really doesn't mean squat.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:49 | Link to Comment woozi
woozi's picture

Are you referring to the HFT parasites or the ones that suck money from taxpayers when they go boom?  Real geniuses - Nerd's to be more specific, CDS's and CDO's anyone?  Every conceivable scheme they could imagine and they still crumble.  This party isn't over yet.  Your "smartest saviest" aren't out of the woods with the "top tier investment banks so time will tell if they can survive.  I can't wait to see them with their hat's in hand the next time.  If they couldn't suck off of the taxpayer they wouldn't even have a job.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:54 | Link to Comment LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

MDB,

You've posted better...come on, stay on top your game buddy.  No slipping allowed.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:57 | Link to Comment lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

at MDB - he's only HALF the man that these 24 years old are.  need to change to 2MDB.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:22 | Link to Comment DosZap
DosZap's picture

MDB,

They are the smartest, savviest traders out there and they honestly don't care what you think, losers.

If you haven't noticed  TROLL, we could DAMN SURE care less about anything you have to say.

One would think the "Red Triangles" would be a CLUE for even a moron,but its obvious you are not here to do anything except tear down,and be moronic.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:56 | Link to Comment oogs66
oogs66's picture

I now think you have never had a million dollar bonus. Even in best of times, 2 sticks was pretty good, and nowadays, that is a very big bonus. Maybe you were about to take off on your PJ and had to rush, but a very disappointing post.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:17 | Link to Comment steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

Dude, I hope your Carrera blows a head gasket.  Here's a sob story for ya.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bonus-withdrawal-puts-bankers-malaise-0501...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:35 | Link to Comment Eric L. Prentis
Eric L. Prentis's picture

Methinks the swanky, MDB Wall Street trader doth protest too much.

MDB, why are you reading ZH, if you hold it in such low esteem?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:27 | Link to Comment ClassicalLib17
ClassicalLib17's picture

Take it easy on MDB,  he usually posts the most accurate, in character, contrarian point of view that you will see anywhere on the internet today, and as can we see, he is drawing in alot of admirers here at zerohedge.   He's Robert Crumb in an Armani suit.   But today, he sucks.    Come on, MDB, if you can't keep that edge nice and sharp, you need to take a vacation for awhile.   

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:59 | Link to Comment Implicit simplicit
Implicit simplicit's picture

You mean like gladman Sucks

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:10 | Link to Comment constitutionalist
constitutionalist's picture

than what are you doing here if we are all losers? birds of a feather my friend..

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:14 | Link to Comment constitutionalist
constitutionalist's picture

than what are you doing here if we are all losers? birds of a feather my friend.mdb

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:46 | Link to Comment Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

To most of us who see their government and Wall Street printing and throwing around tens of billions like it was chump change, $2 million doesn't seem like much either. No one is impressed by it anymore, because, they know it's all funny money anyway. That's true weather your an average citizen or a billionaire founder of an internet company.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:12 | Link to Comment Andy Lewis
Andy Lewis's picture

Gotcher bone us right here, assface.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:58 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

That must be some kind of record. Reality Ranch!

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:06 | Link to Comment true brain
true brain's picture

Hey million dollar asshole.

1)as I write this there are at least 26 trolls on ZH.
2) if you're such a hotshot, and you can make $2 mil easily, why the fuck are you trolling here, wasting your time on a friday night when you can blow that on drugs and hookers. You're an idiot. Just by the fact that you wrote this post on ZH show that you care what we think; why the fuck else would you waste your time writing when you don't give a rat's ass about who read your post. For example I would never leave a comment on the ny times website because I don't give a fuck if nytimes readers ever read my post, because I don't care what they think. So by saying what you said, you're a fucking moron who hasn't the slightest understanding of psychology.
3)if it's easy to make millions, then why are the traders on wall street being laid off like diseased hookers. Give me a breaker. Do you expect us to trust you. Hell no. You sound like a money junky, like an idiot who has no clue. I have shit heads like you during the housing bubble and now they have all shut the fuck up. You should do the same.
4)People who come to ZH are not day traders, only truth seekers, who are tired of mainstream bs.
5) finally and most importantly fuck you for making me type this long reply on my iPad, with one finger. Man, this is toture.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:34 | Link to Comment Moon Pie
Moon Pie's picture

So, MDB, your in here givin out to ZH'ers...why?  And doomer traders need to trust you?  We'll save you a spot in the soup/bread line, amigo, despite yer smart and savvy self. 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 07:08 | Link to Comment Joshua Falken
Joshua Falken's picture

Sales and Flow traders are merely front runners by another name.

 

If we all had Co-location facilitated Algo and HFT access, we could all be masters of the universe.

 

One day the SEC, CFTC, FSA and the Committee of European Securities Regulators might grow some balls and outlaw this blatantly illegal front running activity and then we'll see if J.P. Morgan, BofA, Citi, Goldman, Morgan Stanley get charged with organised racketeering, treason and fraud.

put the pieces together here

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/707568901000000-how-and-why-banks-increased-total-outstanding-derivatives-record-107-trillion-6

 

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2012/02/21/888511/stanchart-camps-out-at-the-securitisation-bistro-part-1/

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2012/02/21/888701/stanchart-camps-out-at-the-securitisation-bistro-part-2/

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/five-banks-account-96-250-trillion-outstanding-derivative-exposure-morgan-stanley-sitting-fx-de

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/european-banks-pull-out-all-stops-defend-picosecond-hft-themis-trading-explains-lies-behind-

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