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If The Spanish Bank Bailout Came To The United States...

Tyler Durden's picture





 

For those curious what the latest and greatest estimate of the Spanish bank bailout, which at last count was €100 billion and growing fast, would look like in US terms, here is a rough and dirty comparison of the scale we are taking about here...

  • Spanish GDP of $1.25 Trillion : US GDP of $15.5 Trillion :: Spanish Bank Bailout of $125 Billion : US Bank Bailout of $1.6 TRILLION

A trillion here... a trillion there...

Or visually:

 


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Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:00 | Link to Comment Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

Basta

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:54 | Link to Comment Transitory Disi...
Transitory Disinflation's picture

Barrack Oblamer will save the day.  Chang you can bereive in.

 

Spain should just ebay Enrique Iglesias.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:59 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

When the inevitable (but unexpected) artifact of the insane complexity that they have constructed disrupts the wrong element of the equation (that was thought to be a constant) here, you are going to need to raise that number an order of magnitude..

Sun, 06/10/2012 - 06:35 | Link to Comment FreeNewEnergy
FreeNewEnergy's picture

Egggs-zacty what I was thinking. $1.6 trillion? Chump change. Don't you know that bankers cannot defecate comfortably unless it's into a gold-plated commode? And those ain't cheap.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:14 | Link to Comment Ethics Gradient
Ethics Gradient's picture

Choom you can believe in?

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:31 | Link to Comment Bindar Dundat
Bindar Dundat's picture

 

Bye bye to the American Lie   ( sang to American Pie )

 

A long long time ago

I can still remember how

The greenback used to make me smile

And I knew if I had a chance

That I could collect alot of cash

And maybe I would be happy for a while

But then I had to buy some silver

With every dollar I’d deliver

Bad news on the Fox TV news Show

I could not take one more blow

I can’t remember if I cried

When I read about our financial suicide 

But something touched me deep inside

 

The day the dollar died

 

So

 

(Chorus)

Bye, bye the American lie

Drove my fiat to the market but the market was dry

Them good old boys were trading hard on the buy

Bernank Singin’ this’ll be the day that you try

But This’ll be the day that it'll die !

 

Did you write the book of funds

And do you have faith in the Federal reserve above?

If Bernanke would  tell you to?

Now do you believe in precious metals so?

Can gold and silver save your soul?

And can you teach me how to spend real slow?

 

Chorus

 

Well I know your in love with them

Cause I saw you hoarding your PM

You etc. etc, etc.

 

Watch the fat lady clearing her throat!

 

 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:23 | Link to Comment Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Obamas bazooka policy for Europe!....Send the Spanish some Thingamijigs!

Sun, 06/10/2012 - 00:05 | Link to Comment Sokhmate
Sokhmate's picture

Cosamajigas

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:26 | Link to Comment emersonreturn
emersonreturn's picture

100 billion for a spanish bank bailout seems questionably small when compared to jpm's squandering nearly as much gambling...surely the number combied with real estate, personal, student and business loans, as well as a degree of inevitable fx, cds gambling...must amount to more? 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 18:58 | Link to Comment cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

Why are all these bailouts constantly needed?

Simple, all the damn debt paper they're holding on their books is WORTHLESS !!!

...and they keep RIGHT ON loaning governments money, taking all that new debt paper on their books, and they know IT'S WORTHLESS TOO.

IT'S ALL WORTHLESS PROMISES that will NEVER be fulfilled.  Worthless promises to pay back money that will NEVER be paid back. 

All these central bank fiat currency systems are PONZI SCHEMES where entire nations of people are looted by their governments with bankers getting a piece of the action (interest on the debt).

Sun, 06/10/2012 - 07:06 | Link to Comment FreeNewEnergy
FreeNewEnergy's picture

Governments and bankers are both in the same business: skimming, a time-honored tradition of organized crime, bless their little hearts.

The difference between how the mob and the .gov/bank syndicate operate is simple: the crime families did it behind closed doors, quietly and with some degree of gentility. Government and banks do it with impunity, out in the open, because there is nobody to challenge their authority - they are the authorities.

That ordinary Americans allow such outright theft right under their noses is a sorry statement on what we have become: a nation of docile little sheep obediently following the wishes of our leaders, to the slaughterhouse, acquiescing to their every command, out of fear that one may be singled out, brutalized, tortured and killed.

What is better? A relatively quick, excruciatingly painful death or a slow, humiliating existence of living in fear, which eventually leads to being fed into the gaping maw of totalitarian annihilation?

The answer is neither, but to steel one's resolve, stand one's ground, resist and accept whatever fate awaits.

The end result is always going to be the same. Die now or die later. The difference is that at least by resisting, one dies with one's integrity and self-esteem intact.

If we have not already met with the SHTF moment, it is coming apace, a fully-loaded freight train steamrolling over the populace.

It may never be too late to stand up, but the hour of our destruction is nigh. By this time next year the wheels of tyranny will be spinning at full speed and will not be easily be slowed.

Go ahead, keep playing along, quietly paying your mortgages, taxes, interest and fees, your "tribute" to the liars, thieves and robber barons of the day. We can already see where that has gotten us, to the situation which is today.

The future will be much, much worse.

</rant>

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Sorry double post... Why does ZH never cover anything Peter Schiff says? He also believes the US is going to implode soon!

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 15:24 | Link to Comment Dead Canary
Dead Canary's picture

As much as I admire Peter Schiff, he won't come out and admit the the metals market is manipulated. I don't blame him. He has a business to run. And he doesn't want to come off sounding like a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist nut sack like the rest of us.

Sun, 06/10/2012 - 14:59 | Link to Comment TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

There is nothing to 'admit'. There is not enough hard evidence, so smart people will never say anything they can't prove.

 

It has nothing to do with his business, he's just not a conspiracy theorist. And please speak for yourself, I'm not a nut sack nor do I believe all that hogwash.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:01 | Link to Comment Zola
Zola's picture

That's nothing come on! Just one year of deficits. Surely MDB will explain to us that this is great and we can postopone the problem like this for another year ?!! Of course this will work as long as they can print money, but the people being sheeps love to fund the tools of their enslavement and will happily accept USDs until some later time in the future when all the wealth has concentrated in the top 0.0001%. Idiots.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:34 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

According to hte article "The Spanish Cross Of Forbearance" the actual amount is likely $400 Billion, which is more like $6 Trillion when compared to America.

They should just bring out the bazooka and inject 1 Trillion euros into Spain, just to make sure the problem is solved once and for all, instead of going with half-measures and dragging this out for years.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:58 | Link to Comment jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

look at japan.  this technique is ineffectual.  it will always drag out for years.  japan is working on its twenty second year of zombification.  only real reorganization through bankruptcy works.  the counterparties must know who is truly solvent and who isn't.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 18:03 | Link to Comment azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

and I might add, Japan actually produces something other than suntans for northern Euros like spain. 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:08 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Spaniard's suffer under one grand delusion.

That all they REALLy need to do in life is to look Haughty and Sexy.

ori

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:49 | Link to Comment Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

The answer is innovation. Calcultors once upon a time had only one zero and eventually over time we now have a single button with three zeroes. This crisis can only be solved sooner with a six zero button.

This whole fiasco is travelling both to quickly and too slowly. Too quickly for politicians to react and too slowly for people who are subjected to a slow economic death.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 16:42 | Link to Comment Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Faster if you use scientific notation.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:01 | Link to Comment deagle44
deagle44's picture

We already had that bailout a few years ago.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:28 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

There was fear expressed by Minority Leader McConnel at the time that the "bailouts" (the Troubled Asset Relief Program of TARP) were in fact on their way to becoming an actual Federal Program. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program
Given what happened to the US dollar, the economy and the current state of debt and deficit my guess would be "that was a one shot deal." In other words "the current borrowing of 100 billion a week" or there abouts is the current "form of bailout." As measured by an interest rate it appears to be working. Obviously in absolute dollar amount terms "we are failing." Of course "what is debt sustainability again"? Is it a percentage of GDP? Or "the enforcement of a political will"? It has been argued that the United States is basically ungovernable. I'm not sure i agree with that sentiment. Does seem a WEE bit on the expensive side tho.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:37 | Link to Comment Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Mere seedcorn.

Now they need the whole fucking harvest.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:02 | Link to Comment Nid
Nid's picture

But how does it look in terms of zeee geerrmans?

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:17 | Link to Comment Desert Irish
Desert Irish's picture

This - Hitler discovers Spain needs a bailout

http://vimeo.com/18669101

apologies to the original poster

 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:32 | Link to Comment trebuchet
trebuchet's picture

Germany sees political union on the cards.

 

They dont want blackmail from their european partners so inevitably will seek "EU political oversight".

 

Welcome to the birth of the (6th?) Weimar Republik. 

 

Greece, Portugal, Ireland, small states not a big issue. 

Spain, that is a BIG issue. 

The money is NOT a big issue ($100bn - is peanuts today), it is the politics and integration of Europe that has to be fixed and is at stake. 

Merkel has identified this and let us be ABSOLUTELY Clear - her solution is leading to a German led - EU federal state system. 

Ole!

 

 

 

 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:54 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

Take it from this Kraut.

Germans DO NOT WANT TO BE JOINED BY THEIR HIPS to every other European nationals.

The common currency was a mistake as it turns out. You CANNOT TRUST the accounting of your own government, let alone the accounting from other governments. That is what this boils down to.

It was UTOPIA, it was done right after the unification between West and East and Germans barely had a chance to understand the deal and the ramifications from it.

END THE EURO NOW will be the new movement sweaping across Europe.

WE FOUGHT TO THE BITTER END 2X AND LOST - HAD TO CAPITULATE WITH MASSIVE DEBT AND DESTRUCTION.

THIS TIME, GERMANY CAN STILL OPT TO WALK AWAY, CALL IT A DAY AND AVOID THE 3RD ABSOLUTE CAPITULATION IN 100 YEARS.

Imagine there's a war and nobody shows up? We're being dragged into a war as we speak. We should decide not to show up.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:58 | Link to Comment magpie
magpie's picture

I don't know where this talk of war keeps on coming from. Is Greece gonna invade - granted they have all kinds of modern hardware. The most i could imagine is that Cameron or Obama slaps German products with a tariff or something. Even if i believe that Hollande is stupid, will he send the French Foreign Legion to Frankfurt and take German bankers hostage ?   

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:13 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

ME and North African Pots being furiously stirred. + EU's tinderbox being marginalized, ghettoized immigrants from ME and North Africa =

 

Potent Brew.

ori

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:25 | Link to Comment magpie
magpie's picture

Yes, the wider arena of Geopolitics. But i was talking about the prospects of Post-Euro inter-European war being thrown around.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:38 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

I'm not talking about "war" in the sense of military action from both sides.

The enemy of Germany's finances is standing at the door and demanding access to her treasury. If that's not a declaration of financial warfare, I don't know what is.

Germany can retreat, regroup and reemerge with her own currency and stronger economic foundations.

Just close the door on the bankers and say that we're no longer interested to working for them. Sure, exports may suffer a bit. But to keep financing the exports against zero collateral and zero repayment is plain stupid.

Needs to be investigated how it ever came to be that a currency was formulated and introduced between nations of a common union without introducing a common finance ministry and taxation first. I tell you whay that was done. Had they tried to get Europeans to accept a common finance ministry and common treasury, giving up sovereignty in the process... they would have been laughed at and it wouldn't have happened.

So, now we realize we've been all sold down the river and given a ruse. Time to find out who is responsible and if that means, we have to take over government and oust a number of people from power, so be it. Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last time. The rot is deep.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 15:13 | Link to Comment trebuchet
trebuchet's picture

I can see your point. Expressed in this article as well:

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/how-germany-s-eu-partners-are-using-blackmail-in-the-euro-crisis-a-837768.html

 

(following a repy to one of my earlier posts i have increased my reading of german viewpoints... )  

 

So let get this right, Germany exits Euroland. it is STILL joined to the hips with its negihbours only now it is in a much more messy situation and has no control over its main export markets and external influences. 

so it has three options :

a. isolationist - get hammered economically, revert to internal markets, let the economy shrink/rise as neighbouring states, 

b. dick on everyone via war (been there, done that, hasn't worked since the days of the holy Emperors)

c. sit them around the table and tell them how to behave and what they can and cannot do through a system of sticks and carrots called the EU. 

 

Option c is looking like the best choice right now, only choice........ MErkel just got to figure out a way to sell it to the kids back home

 

The bailouts just became about the future of EUROPE (sorry germany cant just float away) 

 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 14:53 | Link to Comment kraschenbern
kraschenbern's picture

Economic competition; War by other means???

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:02 | Link to Comment FL_Conservative
FL_Conservative's picture

Trouble with Trillions.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:04 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

not counting derivative bubble trouble, that is just the balance sheet debt....

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:07 | Link to Comment The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

 

"CTRL-P is what the world needs."

B.S. Bernanke

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:07 | Link to Comment jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

how can it be i just noticed his initials??  what a moron am i!

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:07 | Link to Comment The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

 

Sometimes the obvious is the hardest thing 2 see.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:08 | Link to Comment derek_vineyard
derek_vineyard's picture

bernanke said 'a trillion here a trillion there' before congress on thursday when mocking the politicians for their lack of enacting any policy (and basic overall stupidity)

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:11 | Link to Comment RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Are you kidding?

 

Right now, the 10-yr. yield would have to rally over 600 b.p. to match the heights reached when the economy was booming and the Nasdaq was trading at 5,000.

And, the Fed would have to raise the Fed Funds rate 25 b.p. 24 times to get the FF rate back up to 6%.

I say we print more.

Nobody will care about a 6% 10-yr. Treasury yield and a $20 trillion deficit when the Dow is at 19,000 and unemployment rate has dropped to 4%.

By that time, we will be seeing massive inflows into equity funds and a slow drain out of fixed income.

Of course, the slightest whiff of a stock market correction along the way will cause an immediate and instantaneous knee jerk reaction of "fleeing back into Treasuries", thus checking the decline.

I vote for Krugman as the next Fed Chair after Bernanke retires in January.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:19 | Link to Comment jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

Nobody will care about a 6% 10-yr. Treasury yield

And, the Fed would have to raise the Fed Funds rate 25 b.p. 24 times to get the FF rate back up to 6%

***************

Oh really and what happens if the long bond says FU to Bernanke like it did to Greenspan?

http://bit.ly/s86T8y

 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:27 | Link to Comment skepticCarl
skepticCarl's picture

That's kind of RT's point, Jimmy.  Interest rates will stay low for a long time, that's why the expectation that the Fed will continue to print.  The Bond Vigilantes have disbanded, probably joined Lefty and headed for O Hi O.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:38 | Link to Comment jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

That's kind of RT's point, Jimmy.  Interest rates will stay low for a long time,

********

Yes i suspect they would-but if they raised the FFR to his 6% target and the long end refusing to budge from here-would end the banks lucrative spread game and they would be unable to borrow at zero and buy LB's-

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:08 | Link to Comment HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

One problem is sticky wages. Sure, you can inflate your way out of the economic problem, but then you've got a whole new political and survival problem when the serfs can't afford to eat because their wages are stuck in pre-hyperinflation mode while everything they need is reealllllly ridiculously expensive, as in Zimbabwe dollar expensive...

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:31 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Just a simple matter of throwing California, Texas, Florida, Illinois and Rhode Island under bus that's all! I say GO FOR IT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYBP9A6P2t0

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:39 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

Robot, honestly dude. Do some math. More printing will deliver DOW 19,000 - who cares? Unemployment will still be 9% or more.

More easing or twisting or whatever they do, is not bringing the economy back and creating jobs. All it does accomplish is digging a deeper hole.

When you're in a hole and you're trying to get out, the first thing you must do is to stop digging.

So, kiss your freakin' equity bubble good-bye once and for all and take the bitter medicine that needs to be administered to the patient.

DELEVERAGING - DEBT JUBILEE - RESET

However, with whatever means, with or without the spilling of blood. Preferably without but the elite may not give us any other choice.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:13 | Link to Comment jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

think we see dow 3000 before we see 19,000.  the extreme bubble valuations of the late '90's were unique in history (dwarfing '29).  it was the supercycle top.  head and shoulders now fully drawn.  as stocks went up in the late '90's, so they go down in the next three years.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:48 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

For sure. QE is not coming back. Bernanke points to a fiscal cliff and basically suggests that it's governments responsibility to look after their own finances. That's the common theme recently. Lagarde (IMF) telling the Greeks to figure it out and start paying taxes for example.

Private bankers bought the debt of nations which makes them the owners of nations! If nations cannot repay the debt to the private bankers, the bankers will ask for collateral. This is the strategy all along.

The FED is now going for the jugular. And Americans thought the candy man would never stop giving out freebies? ts ts...

Our only chance is to take the country back by whatever means and kick the bankers to hell. Start independent investigations and oust every politician that's close to the banks and has taken bribes from the banks. The private bank is our enemy and all the politicians that work for or on behalf of this private bank are enemies.

The movement needs to be clearly articulated and work within the confines of the American constitution. There are stipulations where government can be superceded by the people when government is out of control. Government is not just out of control it is corrupt to the core.

People need to pick up their pitchforks is the bottom line.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Overfed
Overfed's picture

Even if you buy the gov't's U6 numbers, real unemployment is over 15% and will be for a long time. If you start counting people who decided to just go on disability because they can't/won't find a job, that number gets a whole bunch bigger.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:43 | Link to Comment dougngen
dougngen's picture

Just another selfish asshole like Krugman! Of course you want to monetize, you don't give two shits about anyone but yourself. Your a trader so you figure to get rich and to hell with people on fixed income. Your just another example of exactly,what is wrong with this country; GREED!

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 15:13 | Link to Comment Carp Flounderson
Carp Flounderson's picture

you must have loads of cash savings to protect from inflation?  How many million you worth you greedy pig :)  Oh, whats that, you're drowning in debt?  Inflation is your friend bro.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:59 | Link to Comment knowless
knowless's picture

4% unemployment? inpossible. the troll is weak.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 14:56 | Link to Comment kraschenbern
kraschenbern's picture

And the real economy could comprise each of us taking in our neighbor's laundry...

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 15:28 | Link to Comment trebuchet
trebuchet's picture

@Robot Trader: 

 

I pissed myself laughing at your post - this is gonna be fun to watch

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:21 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

You have entered The Bailout Zone. A place not of profits or supply and demand but of the mind. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, it lies between the pit of man's fears, and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call The Bailout Zone. 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:02 | Link to Comment Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

The black hole of space is nothing compared to the black hole of governmental and banking finances. We are in fact in the twilight zone and the full reality will only dawn upon us when we are plunged in darkness.

Sun, 06/10/2012 - 05:54 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

full of anti matter and Hadron collidor territory! You have to be swiss to benefit from that! 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:19 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

I like Spain's idea of the bankers forced to lend to the banks. The Fed should be made accountable as well. If they lend to banks then it is their problem. Let the FED go under. A US mint to mint US silver dollars. Banksters enter the endangered species list. All the debt goes poof. Everybody happy again.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:46 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

You are correct and it is actually that easy.

Sink the banks and the balance sheets into the Mariana Trench. If they're all connected by chain, then they will all go under.

RESET with a new currency. Give every citizen 50 bucks to start the game anew. Wipe out debts, share holder equity (ficticious), wealth on debt accounting (ficticious) and wealth on derivatives (super ficticious). It's all bogus!

Let the chips fall where they may. See how much "worth" someone really has when trying to fight this in court. They won't even be able to afford the best lawyers.

As far as I'm concerned, the rule of law has been suspended. Let's go all the way, shall we?

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:54 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Easier to hand out winning lottery tickets to every citizen and hold the drawing to much fanfare. The excitement alone makes it more consistent with Fed and US foreign policy. Next day tickets can be redeemed and everyone wins. Remember: gambling winnings tend to get spent quickly and completely

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:57 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

Why is that easier? Read up on the history of currency resets and introductions of new currency everywhere. There's some artrition, fraud and manipulation but its meaningless compared to the upside of starting from scratch.

Sun, 06/10/2012 - 17:26 | Link to Comment ffart
ffart's picture

Well, a global currency reset would be GREAT for PM holders. The overnight hyper-inflation in this new currency would simultaneously make all governments and banks irrelevant as people would not have any significant income or savings in these new assets and probably never would because their existing savings would be wiped out. "Enjoy your $50 in monopoly money, good luck using it for anything because everyone else is going to be looking for a buyer for theirs at the same time."

I like the way you think.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:20 | Link to Comment skepticCarl
skepticCarl's picture

Most of RT's wishes/expectations will come true.  But it will be Janet Yellen as Obama's selection for Fed chief.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:22 | Link to Comment Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture

Based on my Fox interview following Peter Schiff, I put together some charts showing how futile Fed policy is. And look at the reserves for the banks AND M1 Multiplier, M2 velocity. And the Taylor Rule.

http://confoundedinterest.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/the-feds-dilemma-to-qe-or-not-to-qe-that-is-the-question/

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 15:36 | Link to Comment trebuchet
trebuchet's picture

interesting charts, good to see data together like that. 

Not sure about your conclusions - what is the counterfactual? problem is you cant establish it. 

 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:22 | Link to Comment hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

Spain...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqJtITV2xxk&feature=related

 

+[]+

forget banks, just enjoy life.

Hugo,

Insert Coin, Game over.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:24 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Let's get it straight: the laws of competition, supply/demand, profits and rules only apply to you. Not to bankers, people involved in finance or politics. However they can provide good lectures on the subject. 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:37 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

well it used to work that way. i don't know what happened actually.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5-IoEcolp8

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:27 | Link to Comment djsmps
djsmps's picture

Nobody expects the Spanish bailout.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 15:54 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uprjmoSMJ-o

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:31 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

So you think JP Morgan will need to be bailed out......

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:32 | Link to Comment Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Wake me when you amateurs finally start talking Quadrillions

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 16:54 | Link to Comment old naughty
old naughty's picture

exactly how many trailing zeros are in that one?

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:39 | Link to Comment Tom Green Swedish
Tom Green Swedish's picture

The first problem with the decline narrative is the claim that the U.S. has done nothing to aid Europe in its present crisis. In fact, since early 2010, the Federal Reserve has made an unlimited line of credit available to the European Central Bank (ECB) -- among several other foreign monetary authorities -- via a liquidity swap line. As of Nov. 2, the ECB had upward of $1.8 billion in outstanding debt with the Fed. While this is admittedly a small contribution to Europe's current troubles, it is at the moment a precautionary measure. If Greece were to default on its obligations in a disorderly fashion, the ECB's drawing from this credit line would undoubtedly increase substantially. In other words, if things get really bad, the U.S. response will increase in kind.

Historically, the U.S. has rarely if ever bailed out foreign countries for charity's sake. It has typically done so out of purely self-interested motivations: to protect American banks and the American banking system from losses that might spillover from financial crises abroad. Taken on its own, Greece simply does not merit a dramatic response from the Obama administration because, in terms of bank exposure, Greece really is a "European problem."
 

When the U.S. Treasury under President Bill Clinton put together a multibillion-dollar rescue package for Mexico in 1995, more than 10 percent of American banks' foreign claims were against the Mexican government and its financial system as a whole. Two years later, in 1997, when the Asian financial crisis erupted and the Clinton administration coordinated an international response, American banks were exposed to South Korea to the tune of 5 percent of total foreign claims; add in Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, and total exposure to the crisis economies was more than 10 percent.

 

People have to realize this wasn't an overnight thing.  This debt disaster has been going on since the moment Bill Clinton "I can't say anything without lying Mr. I want to save the World" Clinton.  He signed the Glass Steagal repeal. He gave out all the money.

 

 

 

Europe is being smart.  They know that during 1997 the democraps under Bill Clinton Bailed out Asia thus increasing their standing in the world along with his crap NAFTA Plan.  The USA paid the price and will always pay the price to protect the bankers.  Mexico Europe Asia.  It doesn't matter.  It is all so they can make us better debt slaves.  The sad reality of it is that the banks cannot take loses according to the US government.  This will go on forever in its current state and they will do whatever they have to to protect the banks even if it means destroying the nation.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crash/etc/cron.html

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:41 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

But the nation is already wrecked.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:51 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

The new axis of Evil are all those who oppose bank and sovereign bailouts. Bailing out sovereign nations IS US foreign policy. 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 17:18 | Link to Comment OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Nice post. Anyone who doesn't get that there are only TWO issues of political importance; BANKS and WAR. Solve them both and it's peace and prosperity time. THAT's why I was/am FOR Ron Paul. He's the ONLY one who gets this.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:35 | Link to Comment Byte Me
Byte Me's picture

I miss the days of good, sound financial principles.

Bring back the Bi-Ponzinomic model.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:39 | Link to Comment Fix It Again Timmy
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:43 | Link to Comment Tom Green Swedish
Tom Green Swedish's picture

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad accuses "rogue speculators" for Southeast Asia's economic upheaval. He later singles out billionaire financier George Soros.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:45 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

When the going gets tough, all bets are off. It's high time the jackals and sons of bitches are all called out by their names.

Their gig is up and they better understand it and soon.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:50 | Link to Comment Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

jig (sigh)

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 12:55 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Well we simply have to bail out Indonesia too! We don't want jealous nations to upset the apple cart. Bail 'em!

Sun, 06/10/2012 - 05:52 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

funny how a remark by MAlaysian PM gets a knee jerk from u to bail out INDonesia! Shows your compassionate nature of true American. Spread it out thick n fast. 

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 21:58 | Link to Comment g speed
g speed's picture

Their gig--or "the jig"-- please try not to correct when you're clueless --(sigh)

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:12 | Link to Comment Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Nigel Farage compilation dating back to 2008:

UKIP Nigel Farage - The TRUTH about the disastrous EURO currency - Greece, Spain & Portugal

"The bailolut for Spain would be seven times the [bailout] size of Ireland, and at that moment all of the bailout money has gone."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8T6vQmhlNg

 

 

Nigel Farage - Greece should leave the Euro 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiZqGJ87Jx4


Stability!

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:54 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

The day that Nigel Farage starts trash talking The City, I will respect him. He's correct in his opinion on the Euro BUT ..

TRUTH is that Nigel Farage and the Queen who he has sworn to "serve" are sitting in a glass house and throwing rocks.

The UK is broker than broke. Disgustingly broke but still manages to have an opinion on everyone else.

The UK is so broke, they can't even afford to have an opinion. Wonder that nobody in Europe is taking the bait and firing back at Farage unless they're all good customers of The City which is what I suspect.

The rot is deep.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 14:36 | Link to Comment Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

UK is broke

Bandits à neuf heures, Jacques! Royal Navy pilots have language lessons so they can use French aircraft carrier

Sun, 06/10/2012 - 17:13 | Link to Comment giovanni_f
giovanni_f's picture

spot on

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:04 | Link to Comment onlooker
onlooker's picture

I assume the data is published or is public access. The question I have is, what are the real numbers for Spain and the US.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:04 | Link to Comment Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

When the Dinner with Barack ad comes up lets all be sure and click it ten or more times, its for the children.. of the Tylers after all

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 17:19 | Link to Comment jumbo maverick
jumbo maverick's picture

I so hope to win the dinner. I would wear my crappiest wife beater. I would say Mr. President may I borrow your pen? I would then order 4 or 5 tall boys. I would shotgun them all, projectile vomit. Going out in style I would high five the maitre de. I would be an American hero.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 22:04 | Link to Comment g speed
g speed's picture

Don't forget to put your feet up on the table--

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:08 | Link to Comment Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 

 

Headwinds and crash landings desensitizes the public minds. 

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless.”

 

– Abraham Lincoln, from a November 21, 1864 letter to Colonel William F.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 14:25 | Link to Comment AssFire
AssFire's picture

Now force the Yankees at gunpoint to go and kill burn and pillage those who simply want to leave the union. Let's centralize the power in Washington and fuck states' rights.

– Abraham Lincoln

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

So QEneXt will be for $1.6T.  Fair enough.

So what?  If rates rise then it will add $100B a year to the deficit....One trillion here, one trillion here.....[shrugs].

Ben S. Bernanke, July 7th, 2012

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:14 | Link to Comment W10321303
W10321303's picture
BY KELLY NOLAN, KIRSTEN GRIND AND ANUSHA SHRIVASTAVA

Banks, bond issuers and investors are bracing for aftershocks from a wave of bank downgrades expected to hit the U.S. as soon as the coming week.

Moody's Investors Service has said it is likely to reduce by the end of June credit ratings for 17 large global banks, including five of the six biggest U.S. financial firms by assets. The downgrades are expected to raise borrowing costs and crimp some lucrative trading businesses at the banks, including at J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., Bank of America Corp., Citigroup Inc., Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:15 | Link to Comment hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

Spanish Problems:

1. Private DebtHolders. (Real Estate Mortgages (NPL > 32%) ; Housing Prices still 1.700 mean price euros sq m. when should has to be close to 1.200-1.400 on average.

2. Government and Subgovernment collapsed debt . Specially Regional Comunidades Autónomas-  Hidden Debt > 190.000 Mn Euros

3. Unemployment ( better to dont tell the real figures, to avoid heartattacks)

4. Real Salaries dropping from 20 to 40%

5.Commodities still hold or keep raising prices

6.Hidden Economy > 35%

7.Money outflows (softly bankruns), and freaking no control over offshore accounts- (Not relevant the stupid demagogical fiscalTax amnisty)

8.Spanish debt may suffer a debt haircut scheme from 5-20% depending tranches-

9.Deloittense, Kpmg,Ernst and Banksters, and PriceCrashingHouse are all part of the biggest scam in real mark to market valuations with Irreal Audits - [Tinsa,Richard Ellis, John Lang LassallemKnight Frank,Aguirre Newman-...]Freaking Corruption Price Manipulation by all the chain - AUDITS + REALTORS

10.Unaffordable Public System (Overcrowded)

11.Pension Liabilities Mismatch

12.Fondo de Reserva de Pensiones completly loaded 74% of spanish Bonds ...which will be dilluted if the crappy ISDA some day says....CREDIT EVENT in SPAIN too.¡

13.No banksters or politician has been prosecuted and in jail with the massive fraud commited.

14.Just middle and low class, as usual, suffering the biggest corruption ever done in a financial system with MBS and hybrids.

15.We dont invest a penny in Research and Development when we have excellent talents, that unfortunately needs to emigrate...we are losing the Future.

16.No one in the Right Axis, has the strong balls, to say, RESET and recognise mistakes from 1996 to 2008 (Both Leader parties + Nacionalists clusters)

17.We dont have the power to devaluate and citizens + corporations have no more ammo left, but we "need to stay in the f..g EURO" to avoid German Banks to collapse, cos they have tons of spanish mincipal bonds and sovereign.

18.We are losing steam and networks in Latam cos new nationalizations age...=negative flows

19.We dont have any confidence in banskers and politics. ( NULL) 

20.Unions,  has too much power to stress normal activity..if we have any left...

-------


Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:27 | Link to Comment Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Exactly the same issues our narcissistic (NPD) US president told you yesterday. Same crisis, different GPS location.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:57 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture

17.We dont have the power to devaluate and citizens + corporations have no more ammo left, but we "need to stay in the f..g EURO" to avoid German Banks to collapse, cos they have tons of spanish mincipal bonds and sovereign.

How much Spanish debt is being held by Spanish banks vs. German banks?

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:24 | Link to Comment MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Who is to say our ratio would not be worse?

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:43 | Link to Comment bnbdnb
bnbdnb's picture

Looking to buy TVIX at $1. Can't wait.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:50 | Link to Comment Lucius Corneliu...
Lucius Cornelius Sulla's picture

Next up ... Italy!

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 15:33 | Link to Comment hedgehog9999
hedgehog9999's picture

What s' triggering this bailout (double in relative terms to the Paulson Bazooka) is the recent bank runs experienced there.

Also, the "me too mentality", the greeks got their bailout, "me too" say the spanish banks so they can keep paying themselves outrageous bonuses...

After the Spanish, bailout, the Italians will say how about us?, not fair.... and the the Irish and all the other ones that want some extra dough... the vigilantes will make sure of that!!

Then comes the "US Hellfire Missile Bailout 2, the sequel"  , soon after JPM and MS and City start getting their bank runs, this will be in the Trillions and probably will be known as a backdoor bailout as in QE3,4, or whatever name Ben wishes to call it.

Funny thing is as these bailouts occur, German and French banks will become stronger as a lot of the cash will go to them, not unlike how the US bailouts made JPM, Barclays and City and MS stronger or how the greek bailout resulted in 80% of the cash going to French, Dutch and German banks. It is just a musical chairs game where in fact a country bailout is nothing but a bailout of the upper echelon banking cartel. Country bailouts is the excuse or mechanism to funnel the cash, while imposing serfdoom conditions on the weakest of the weak......kind of like banks charge usury rates to the poorest of the poor due to their low credit rating .....

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 15:32 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

What short memories we have, even here on ZH. TD posted not to long ago the GAO audit of the FRB of which $16.1 T had been loaned out.

Of that 16.1 T, 3.2 T went to foreign banks, 2.6 T went to other undisclosed institutions. Over 10 T went to the largest banks here in the US.

And this was through the FRB's other nifty programs such as TAF, PDCF, TSLF, CPFF, AMFL, and TALF.  Citigroup alone had borrowed 2.5 T.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 16:22 | Link to Comment Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

That was over the life of the loans. This is a one time TARP-like payment. America's own TARP was $700 billion. This is more than double that.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 16:57 | Link to Comment old naughty
old naughty's picture

Thank you for putting into proper context, TD. I am lost in all these numbers.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 17:42 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Yes, so my point is, $1.6 trillion is nothing to bailout all our banks. And no you are not correct in necessarily. That 16.1 trillion (of which 3.2 went to foreign banks) was not longer than 2007 for instance. TAF didn't exist prior to that. Do a little math. 16.1 T divided by 5 years. That comes to 3.22 trillion per year. Now obviously they didn't necessarily lend out 3.22 T per year. A lot went out after the crisis.

But I hope you get my point. $1.6 T is chicken shit compared to what the FRB has done in the past.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 18:04 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Additional Info:

TAF December 12, 2007

AMLF October 7, 2008 Then closed Feb 2010

TSLF March 2008. Closed Feb 2010

CPFF October 2008

TALF Nov 2008

The real short term facility was PDCF for the primary dealers.

And this doesn't even include crap that the Treasury is doing such as PPIP, Public-Private Investment Program (PPIP) to help struggling banks by buying up to $1 trillion of toxic assets from their' balance sheets.

 

And by the way TD, the table from that GAO audit specifically says (page 131)

"Table 8: Institutions with Largest Total Transaction Amounts (not term adjusted) across Broad Based Emergency Programs (Borrowing Aggregated by Parent Company and included Sponsored ABCP Conduits), December 1, 2007 through July 21, 2010

That is 3 and a half years.

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 17:59 | Link to Comment michaelsmith_9
michaelsmith_9's picture

The debt crisis will continue to get worse, but this year the USD will benefit.  http://bit.ly/MvP8Q9

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 18:43 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

The dollar should benefit for a while as the debt crisis continues. This has been a theme I have suggested (as well as others) for a while. The reason why is as debt implodes, debts in US dollar denominated assets (liabilities) require cash, US dollars to service those debts. So one might ponder, why isn't the Euro experiencing the same thing? I best guess is that as the reserve currency of the world, people do not see a threat to the US dollar yet. But on the other hand, when it comes to the Euro, talk of a EU monetary break up and countries leaving the Euro isn't far fetched. In fact, a total collapse of the Euro is talked about while an end to the US dollar is scantly thought of by most.

It is when people see that the US dollar is at risk (whether by massive printing or devaluation or by outright default, is when the dollar will face the same situation the Euro is currently in.

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