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IMF Loans Likely To Fall Short Of €200 Expected As UK Pulls Rescue Funding
As noted over the weekend, the UK, having vetoed the December 9 summit, has made it clear it would also likely back out of its IMF mandated contribution to save the Eurozone. In other words, the €30.9 billion that was supposed to come from the UK to rescue French and Italian banks, is now probably gone, a move which threatens to topple the latest Plan Z euro bailout in which broke countries pool money to bailout the same broke countries. Sure enough, Dow Jones confirms it:
- EU loans to IMF likely to fall short of expected EUR 200bln according to sources
- Eurozone may move on IMF loans without immediate UK support according to a EU source
And while below we present the latest breakdown of IMF contribution by member countries, courtesy of Reuters, how long before populist pressure in various Eurozone (and especially non-Eurozone) countries threatens to topple governments unless each and every "joint and several" contributor country pulls a UK? Because if the UK is allowed to save taxpayer funds, why not everyone else?
From Reuters:
EU leaders set Monday, Dec. 19, as the deadline to decide which EU member country would contribute how much. Below are pledges made by various countries since Dec 9.
GERMANY
The Bundesbank said it would be prepared to provide additional bilateral loans of up to 45 billion euros. But it would only be willing to do so if other EU and non-EU countries also provide additional funds.
ESTONIA
Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip is in favour of joining other euro zone countries in contributing bilateral loans to the IMF, but needs to agree the technical details, the government's communication office said.
BELGIUM
Belgium would lend around 9.5 billion euros to the IMF, Belgian Central Bank Governor Luc Coene said.
THE NETHERLANDS
The Dutch parliament will support proposals to provide extra money to the International Monetary Fund as part of a solution to the euro zone debt crisis. The Netherlands, via its central bank, would lend a maximum of 17 billion euros to the IMF.
SLOVAKIA
Slovakia will contribute 1.53 billion euros to the IMF.
NON-EURO ZONE EU
POLAND
Poland will lend an additional 6.3 billion euros to the International Monetary Fund, its finance minister said.
BRITAIN
Downing Street said it did not expect Britain to commit more than an additional 10 billion pounds ($15.5 billion) to the IMF.
SWEDEN
The Swedish central bank said it was ready to lend up to 100 billion Swedish crowns ($14.3 billion) to the IMF to help it support the euro zone.
LITHUANIA
Lithuania cannot afford to join other European countries in making a bilateral loan to the International Monetary Fund, the finance ministry spokeswoman said.
LATVIA
The Baltic state is just about to exit a bailout programme led by the International Monetary Fund and European Union. Latvian Prime Minister Valdis Dombrovskis has said his country will not contribute any funds to the IMF boost.
CZECH REPUBLIC
The Czech government should ask the central bank to free reserves for a loan to the IMF only if all other countries outside the euro zone would give loans and Prague would be threatened by isolation if it does not, the Czech prime minister was quoted as saying. The Czech share would be about 3.5 billion euros, under a planned agreed by EU states last week.
WORLD
UNITED STATES
The United States has been wary of additional resources for the International Monetary Fund to help Europe.
JAPAN
Japanese Finance Minister Jun Azumi expressed caution about any potential contribution by Japan to a rescue fund through the IMF, saying Japan would cooperate where it can but only after Europe comes up with a thorough scheme and resources needed to build a fire wall and prevent contagion of the debt crisis.
CANADA
Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney said more resources for the IMF was a decision for the government and that it would be taken in the context of a clearly specified resource need for resources for the global economy, not just Europe.
RUSSIA
Russia is committed to giving at least $10 billion through the International Monetary Fund to support Europe's efforts to stave off financial crisis, a Russian presidential aide said.
»
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Time for plan ZA... then ZB... then ZC... forever... then it's ZZA... then ZZB... unlimited number of plans, yes we can.
Who needs another plan when you have TImmay and the Bernank on speed dial? Was there ever a question about the eventual "solution"?
We do NOT need a solution because even in light of UK stance Euro markets closed in the green overnight. Clearly everything is positive and good. In fact, US futures look up this morning. This motherfucker is out of it's mind, mutating and growing!
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday....
Everybody knows the Fed is always there to push more fiat to feed the debt habit.
A good pusher will always spot you enough juice to keep the high going as long as he feels you can be depended upon to jack enough loot from the hood to keep paying him.
Funny, your analogy is actually spot on, because the runners of the system cut their theeth on smuggling drugs everywhere. English opium pushers.
And yes, Slovakia...nice... kind of like India giving th eIMF 2 or 20 billion while half her population starves.
MAd world.
ori
/15/this-that-and-the-4th-reich/
Don't forget the Indian Space Program, that costs a few meals as well.
So the Euro falls apart and everyone prints. Cool...
So on to another marker week in full knowledge that there is only one short term solution that completely destroys the mid term. And the market will rally on any hint of the short term solution. Getting old.
yes the liquidity 'solution' to fix a debt problem is as old as the hills
...and has failed for longer
Presumably Bernanke knows his solutions are transient yes?
Any more temporary band aids from Nanny Ben and the global economy is going to look like a blind stumbling and mumbling Egyptian Mummy
This would seal the deal - UK out of EU.
Looking more possible by the week.
This letter was sent to me by email - alegedly published in a national (uk) newspaper last week. Not verified by me.
Sums up what a lot of English folk are feeling, even the majhority with no love of the city.
Subject: An open letter... from Frederick Forsyth, author etc...
AN OPEN LETTER TO GERMAN CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL
Angela Merkel backed attack on the City
Tuesday December 13,2011
By Frederick Forsyth
Dear Madame Chancellor,
PERMIT me to begin this letter with a brief description of my knowledge of, and affection for, your country.
I first came to Germany as a boy student aged 13 in 1952, two years before you were born. After three extended vacations with German families who spoke no English I found at the age of 16 and to my pleasure that I could pass for German among Germans.
In my 20s I was posted as a foreign correspondent to East Germany in 1963, when you would have been a schoolgirl just north of East Berlin where I lived.
I know Germany, Frau Merkel, from the alleys of Hamburg to the spires of Dresden, from the Rhine to the Oder, from the bleak Baltic coast to the snows of the Bavarian Alps. I say this only to show you that I am neither ignoramus nor enemy.
I also had occasion in those years to visit the many thousands of my countrymen who held the line of the Elbe against 50,000 Soviet main battle tanks and thus kept Germany free to recover, modernise and prosper at no defence cost to herself.
And from inside the Cold War I saw our decades of effort to defeat the Soviet empire and set your East Germany free.
I was therefore disappointed last Friday to see you take the part of a small and vindictive Frenchman in what can only be seen as a targeted attack on the land of my fathers.
We both know that every country has at least one aspect of its society or economy that is so crucial, so vital that it simply cannot be conceded.
For Germany it is surely your automotive sector, your car industry.
Any foreign-sourced measure to target German cars and render them unsaleable would have to be opposed to vetopoint by a German chancellor.
For France it is the agricultural sector. For more than 50 years members of the EU have been taxed under the terms of the Common Agricultural Policy in order to subsidise France’s agriculture. Indeed, the CAP has been the cornerstone of every EU budget since the first day.
Attack it and France fights back.
For us the crucial corner of our economy is the financial services industry. Although parts of it exist all over the country it is concentrated in that part of London known even internationally as “the City”.
It is not just a few greedy bankers; we both have those but the City is far more. It is indeed a vast banking agglomeration of more banks than anywhere else in the world.
But that is the tip of the iceberg. Also in the City is the world’s greatest concentration of insurance companies.
Add to that the brokers; traders in stocks and shares worldwide, second only, and then maybe not, to Wall Street. But it is not just stocks.
The City is also home to the “exchanges” of gold and precious metals, diamonds, base metals, commodities, futures, derivatives, coffee, cocoa… the list goes on and on.
And it does not yet touch upon shipping, aviation, fuels, energy, textiles… enough. Suffice to say the City is the biggest and busiest marketplace in the world.
It makes the Paris Bourse look like a parish council set against the United Nations and even dwarfs your Frankfurt many times.
That, surely, is the point of what happened in Brussels. The French wish to wreck it and you seem to have agreed. Its contribution to the British economy is not simply useful nor even merely valuable.
It is absolutely crucial. The financial services industry contributes 10 per cent of our Gross Domestic Product and 17.5 per cent of our taxation revenue.
A direct and targeted attack on the City is an attack on my country. But that, although devised in Paris, is what you have chosen to support.
You seem to have decided that Britain is once again Germany’s enemy, a situation that has not existed since 1945.
I deeply regret this but the choice was yours and entirely yours. The Transaction Tax or Tobin Tax you reserve the right to impose would not even generate money for Brussels.
It would simply lead to massive emigration from London to other havens. Long ago it was necessary to live in a city to trade in it.
In the days when deals can flash across the world in a nanosecond all a major brokerage needs is a suite of rooms, computers, telephones and the talent of the young people barking offers and agreements down the phone.
Such a suite of rooms could be in Berne, Thun, Zurich or even Singapore. Under your Tobin Tax tens of thousands would leave London.
This would not help Brussels, it would simply help destroy the British economy.
Your conference did not even save the euro. Permit me a few home truths about it. The euro is a Franco-German construct.
It was a German chancellor (Kohl) who ordered a German banker (Karl Otto Pohl) to get together with a French civil servant (Delors) on the orders of a French president (Mitterrand) and create a common currency.
Which they did. IT was a flawed construct. Like a ship with a twisted hull it might float in calm water but if it ever hit a force eight it would probably founder.
Even then it might have worked for it was launched with a manual of rules, the Growth And Stability Pact. If the terms of that book of rules had been complied with the Good Ship Euro might have survived.
But compliance was entrusted to the European Central Bank which catastrophically failed to insist on that compliance.
Rules governing the growing of cucumbers are more zealously enforced. This was a European Bank in a German city under a French president and it failed in its primary, even its sole, duty.
This had everything to do with France and Germany and nothing whatever to do with Britain.
Yet in Brussels last week the EU pack seemed intent only on venting its spleen on the country that wisely refused to abolish its pound.
You did not even address yourselves to saving the euro but only to seeking a way to ensure it might work in some future time.
But the euro will not be saved. It is crumbling now. And since you have now turned against my country, from this side of the Channel, Madame Chancellor, one can only say of the euro: YOU MADE IT, YOU MEND IT.
It reads like pure propaganda. Like all propaganda, there may be pieces of truth.
You know who Frederick Forsyth, world famous best-selling author is, right? Hardly someone who makes a habit of writing propaganda to national newspapers.
As you suggesting that he is lying or being economical with the truth in his letter, perhaps you could elaborate on specifically where you believe the inaccuracies lie?
See my reply below.
All the better that it was written by Forsyth.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joseph GoebbelsHere is a lie... found part of the way through Forsyth's ode to THE CITY... "Its contribution to the British economy is not simply useful nor even merely valuable". I'll suggest to you that the contribution is destroying our civilization... I mean there is that, but who's keeping score.
My god... I'm reading your post for a second time... "you know who this world famous best-selling author is, right"? WTF is wrong with you? As if it is some sort of blessing for us to read his words. And YES propaganda. He's a very political and outspoken figure. "he's a strong supporter for the British Monarch"... you would know better than me... is this true? How might that truth impact his political positions?
Yes... lets defend the poor banksters.
Fuck them, the Eurocrats and the congress critters. All these MF's need to decorate lamp posts.
"I also had occasion in those years to visit the many thousands of my countrymen who held the line of the Elbe against 50,000 Soviet main battle tanks and thus kept Germany free to recover, modernise and prosper at no defence cost to herself."
Of course it's propaganda. There were never 50,000 Soviet tanks. Closer to 5,000 to 10,000. In the last days of Nazi Germany, the Germans that were fighting were either deluded or fighting to get people west. The lines were agreed upon By US, UK, and the Soviets before April 1945. That's why the US stopped it's advance. If you're going to do propaganda, get the easy history right.
Does make good points.
He's talking about the cold war, not WW2. I'm sure there were 50,000 Russian tanks by that stage.
Though it may not be too far off to compare our current condition to the economic prospects of Nazi Germany in 1944.
??
Errrr, there are not 1,000 bombers coming over Philadelphia tonight!
That still seems an incredible number but I need more research. And yes, he is talking about the Cold War, which leads me to make a conclusion that it's a polemic, not propaganda.
To-mA-toe - to-mah-toe?
this guy just like most brits are missing the point of the british demands, it was all about the trade in euro denominated bonds and derivitives and whatnot. the ecb wants to have this trade inside the eurozone where it can keep a close eye on it. the brits want free trade in finacial products but that would lead to the city having more control over the quantity of euros than the ecb. the brits dont want to be regulated by the ecb but the boe will have no vested interest in regulating eurobond markets and no vested interest in constraining the quantity of new fractional euros, thats a no go for sound money obsessives s
good point, looking at the ecb-boe conflict. and there's also financial regulation. GB woul dnever agree to being overseen by a European financial regulator, which will be coming..
Frederick Forsyth will be, and deserves to be, hung by his own rope in his eulogy to 'The City'
The City is little more than a glorified gambling joint for bankster gangsters. Whatever 'wealth' it imparted on the UK economy it has destroyed in the 2008 bank bailouts and the one to come very shortly
The City has also been at the centre of Englands anti-industrial culture dating back a Century or more. Tossers shuffling other peoples money across a desk have a very high, very deluded, opinion of their (non) contribution to the wealth of a society.
Bankers add £0.000 minus -1% commission to an economy. Period.
And we can date Britains increasing demise to the Thatcher years who ceeded the creation of money to the already bloated diseased monopoly British bankers while Thatchers Tories toffed on about not needing industry, the "future" was in services.. her murderous Milton Friedman Monetarist policies did the rest of putting the knife into British industry
Forsyth really hasn't done his homework on this dribble
For us the crucial corner of our economy is the financial services industry. Although parts of it exist all over the country it is concentrated in that part of London known even internationally as “the City”.
Would that be the financial services industry that allows unlimited re-hypothecation of assets in customer brokerage accounts as collateral for gambling debts made by the brokerage firm?
Would that be the financial services industry that allowed the London branch of AIG to sell hundreds of billions of dollars of CDS "insurance" they had no backing for, and turned out to be the very thing causing the '08 financial collapse ...which American taxpayers had to bail out to the tune of $180 billion?
Would that be the financial services industry that has learned no lesson from the '08 collapse, has changed no policy to prevent a similar collapse from happening again, and in fact has given banks more freedom to build an even bigger derivatives timebomb this time around?
Why yes, I believe it is.
Who would step in and provide the missing money? The UK has been the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU since it joined. The EU can't afford to lose the UK, and they know it. Sarkozy can spit bile and venom as much as he likes, but he still needs someone to pay for all the subsidies his powerful Farming lobby receive.
Hence Cameron is invited back to the next round of bailout discussions despite vetoing the last lot.
of course he will be invited back, but the question is how much Britain will have to say in the future regarding the future of the EU.
The idea of a "core" Europe, consisting mainly of France and Germany, has been on the table for a long time. And when you look over the last 10 to 15 years, alienation of Britain has continously progressed. Just look at foreign policies, especially Iraq II.
The argument Cameron used, namely "splendid isolation", has always been something the Germans did not like (I won't even go into the France-GB conflict area, just focus on Germany-GB for the moment). Whenever GB looked West, germany looked East. Whenever GB said liberalization, Germany said integration. You can even go down to the basic philosophy underlying the societal set-ups.
I should think we should have a say in proprtion to our net contribution. Seems fair. Thus Germany 1st, UK 2nd and Little Sarko 3rd.
problem is that the EU is not about proportions. see voting rights. not based on economy, population etc. EU is as more about egos and societal engineering.
Germany wants a Europe where they are firmly in control, and independent of the US. as GB is still leaning towards the latter, they have been only looking for a chance to alienate GB further.
To them it is clear that a tobin tax is a slap in the face of GB, that in fact GB cannot afford it. why do you think they keep on proposing it?
it's not about reasoning, it's about getting UK out of the EU. as quickly and as fast as possible.
"Likely" and "may" do not seem much like a confirmation from Dow Jones, rather more like rumour and hedging their language.
I love ZH but this back-and-forth reporting on this bailout, that rescue plan and this program, makes one wonder at times who and what is driving these reports? Look, the IMF is tapped. The Eurozone is insolvent. They need at least 3-5T to really fix this thing in the EMU, which they can't. The entire global fiat banking system must be rebooted and the debts flushed. There is no other alternative. This goes for Europe, the US and China. It's one big pile of crap. Let's start reporting on the solutions vs. which type of bandaid we will use on which cut.
My son had a guinea pig years ago. A couple of days after we bought it I found it laying on it's side in the cage in obvious distress, agonal respirations. My wife scooped it up and ran to the 24 hr vet and later that day we had a dead pig and a $150 bill for an animal that cost $20. There is no pill that can cure this disease and the politicians won't blow it up because they will be out of a job, or worse. This is what is happening to the EU and will eventually make it's way to the US.
No one is proposing solutions so there is nothing to talk about other than problems and noise. There is no solution for Europe other than breakup. After that, it's print and save the banks or think of a real solution. Yes there's a huge downward GDP adjustment in there that someone more technical can describe.
If a politician came out and said, 25-50% of your wealth and 50%+ of your future benefits are the square root of -1, would they get elected or even listened to by most of the public. Probably not. That's why we are left with crap Euro headlines, markets that don't work, and the expectation of something horrible on an unexpected timeline.
Anyone else concerned how the ECB (public institution) is turning into a zombie bank, by buying up all the trash collateral from the private banks? Whereas the private banks get to keep all the high quality collateral, and offload trash to the public?
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/12/19/793211/a-tale-of-two-collater...
Not the social contract, or the redistribution of wealth, I signed up for.
Draghi is Goldman Sachs
One problem is that it doesn't really matter who contributes the actual loan money. As long as the plan is to lend money to the IMF, which would in its turn lend it to the needy, all IMF member countries are still on the hook. If the loan receiver defaults, then the IMF, through its member states, has to make good the money to the original lenders from its own funds. This would e.g. put the US on the line to have to pay 17 percent of the defaulted loan amount even if they don't contribute now. Or the IMF could default in its turn, of course. But that's not a popular option, I'm told...
I recall some discussion that what you describe my not be an issue as there will be some sort of SPV created that would limit the potential liabilities of IMF members. Should this be run through the 'General Fund', however then you'd be correct. Anyway, there are very few details yet set in stone - so who knows? Least of all me.
damn Sweden cut that number in half
As a non-member of the IMF (list of members at http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.aspx), just like the Eurozone, how would I go about getting a "loan" from them?
Just an attempt to shift the ponzi onto the IMF's balance sheet.
And S&P500 futures are soaring in the wake of all the negative news... Seems like TPTB are really trying hard to trigger a short squeeze. One final squeeze before the big drop?
Thank you Russia, selling US Treasuries to help the EU.
10 billion.... that's enough to kick the can 1 inch on the stellar highway to hell.
Oh dear, this was on RanSquawk headlines today. Only EU can achieve this bs...
12-19 7:18: Greece, Ireland and Portugal may need to contribute to IMF bilateral...
*BELLY SNORT*
gonna laugh about that all day.
You can't make this shit up....
Someone needs to remind these people that attempting to deliberately mislead someone for the benefit of oneself or another is fraud.
It should be treated as such
RFLMAO
This is not new. The starting point for all this is that NOBODY IS SOLVENT. Even I, with assets, cash, and no debt am actually insolvent because my government has incurred debts that I will have to pay and these debts exceed my assets.
You simply cannot have a financial system in which everyone is insolvent. There have to be people who are solvent who can lend to those who need money.
From day one Tyler has said this mess will lead to a reset. I completely agree. It's not possible for there to be any other outcome.
Greece, Ireland and Portugal lending to the IMF so that it can bail out themselves and all the others is just a manifestatipon of the impossible position we are in.
After 4 years and millions of words poured out across the internet we still cannot predict how the reset will ocur. It could still take the form of either default or hyperinflation. But it must now be one of those two, or both of them in quick succession. No other outcome is even a fleeting possibility.
You don't get the Keynesian mantra do you?
In that hallowed framework, if you believe its philosophical premise, + and -, debts and credits, don't matter; everybody chips into the common economic pump. As the IMPORTANT thing is MOVEMENT, starting the economic motor, avoiding long recession and stagnation, that kills a generation; by trying to create new wealth. The fact that you go from -10 to -15 in the process, momentarily, is not the issue, its that you create a market resurgence that can then wipe out your debt as well as those of others, as -15 goes back to -5! That's the Keynesian theory that IMF is now advocating. It's new medicine from IMF, as they have always been stalwarts of monetary austerity, rigour : clean out debt by raising taxes etc. But these are hopelessly trying times and even the Pope is now prepared to be heretic.
The IMF exists to help countries, not currencies.
So what the hell are they playing at now?
I know, lets just do whatever we want, with money we don't have. Time for the politicians to just fuck off and let matters be. Parasites, the lot of them.
By not monetizing the spending directly like the fed, the euro retains its purchasing power.
If the sovereign debt debacle can be stabilized by using funding from the IMF, ie everyone else not named the EZ, they socialize the cost of bailing themselves, their purchasing power and their banks onto the rest of the world.
It's a good scheme from the Ez, especially French prespective, but i'd be damned if i pay a cent.
I say let them burn.
In the global fiat ponzi scheme, fiats = countries. The very basis of the currencies being aided is the foundation of the countries that are attached to them. If a currency fails, the economy of the countries tied to those currencies fail, thereby fomenting chaos and societal breakdown. Governments will fall if currencies fail. Every country, every government, is so deeply tied to the fiat ponzi that if one card gets yanked, the entire house of cards will collapse. It is only a question of when and how fast.
Throw out UK from the EU, IMF and UN. One thing is for sure....NO Help from rest of Europe when their house of cardds collapse during 2012.
Pound Sterling. Strong currency. Strong government. Laughable. It is just silly!
London City will probably start look like a dwarf....no one will make business with the limejuicers.
Yeah baby, grind that axe.
Concerning City and Uk's financial health; a lot will depend on the support City gets from its expat Arab oil rich and Russian oil/RM rich Oligarchical residents. Their money is a big mainstay to City, along with the WS money line. They also are the NET revenue earners of the world of tomorrow; ever more so!
If London stays cosmopolitan center of Euro finance and Oligarchy land, that helps. If the UK/Euro zone financial war goes sour, those Oligarchs may have to take sides and move their assets accross the Channel. Merkozy do hold a big commercial clout over Putin land. And the Arabs may have to spread their bets, in case a China/Russia/Germany/Turkey/EU beggar zone axis emerges over the next few years. We are talking about a Euroasian market of 3 billion people. As opposed to an Amerindian zone, north and south, of 1 billion, an African zone of .5 billion, and a ME/SE Asian/australian zone of 2.5 billion.
We will see more continental zonal markets in future as opposed to global integration under pax americana.
Too me UK has always been American Trojan horse in EU. And you're right that financial power of the City will be deminishing over time just because other countries want share of the pie. In the age of computers, sattelities such concentration of finacial power in London is just outdated idea.
City firms orchestrated all those problems in Europe introducing American finacial theories, methods and solutions to any finacial problems in that area.
you sound like a canuk who likes cassoulet and cold beer.
Right on the target
Oh please throw us out the EU, we can stop everyone fishing in our waters then...
I can hear Lagarde and Noyer mumbling : Perfidious Albion!
Harper needs to get Canada out of the IMF.
No Harper needs to buy back all those gold mines Peter Munk sold to the Russians
One question to the ZH-community. I would like to know your opinion on how risky is it to have funds with RBS (Royal Bank of Scotland)
I mean can they go more bust than they already are?
Your opinion is appreciated!
Thnx, Oliver
Oliver, when RBS belly up they will not get any help from ROW.....
You then need to rely on Pound Sterling, a "weak" coalition in the parlament and a nation which makes 25% of their income in the financial sector.
Given that RBS is now majority owned by the UK taxpayer it is probably one of the 'safest' UK banks to deposit funds with. In the event of a problem the government will simply print you some more money.
If you're talking about money parked in RBS to cover the rent check on your one room apt in Clapham - then I 'spose its OK.
Otherwise, you deserve to lose every nickel/penny/florint/drachma/Confederate Note/Tesco discount coupon/pebble that you have there.
you're still holding sterling???
Best guess is that if you qualify for the FSCS (read the rules, carefully) the BoE will print enough money to cover your deposit but you will be locked out of your money for a while when the final collapse comes and if you find you don't qualify you will lose the lot.
Looking at the other dead bank walking, Lloyds, Paul Tustain of Bullionvault said this in his newsletter on 17 December:
'So is your un-invested money safe in the Trust Account? I think so, but I cannot be sure, because I cannot be sure about banks. I believe we are using one of the safer banks in the world, on the strength of reputation, and stress tests, and because of the credit of the British government, which I believe would print money to rescue Lloyds Bank depositors if that were necessary. But BullionVault cannot and does not guarantee your cash held at Lloyds in the Trust Account, so until you own bullion in one of our vaults, your uninvested money is subject to default risk. If this worries you, you should either buy gold or silver, or withdraw your money to your own bank.'
Thank you all for your opinions!
@Zayday: I've read 30-40 pages of the FSCS rule book but I have to admit that I'm not qualified enough to be sure I understood the info well. The case is that my funds are deposited by my FX-broker there, this is as I understand it, commingled funds of all retail clients and I bear risk if my broker goes bust!
Honestly this shit is becoming way too complicated for my taste. I'm neither a lawyer nor a professional hedge fund so I've taken out all my funds some day ago, but left a small amount to "play" the markets. I'm not afraid of the market volatility because I almost never use more that 2:1 leverage but what I can not calculate is conterparty risk. I don't really know who is my broker and with whom are they trading. After MF Global I'm really concerned.
I'm sad that also this small chance for the small investor to earn some returns on his capital seems to disappear but have to accept that in this game only the really big criminals have an edge!
Thank you again for all of your answers and if you have something else to say let's hear about it! I think it is interesting for others too.
O
Depends where you hold it and how much. £85,000 in total for all accounts controlled by RBS is the house limit under FSCS but it does not cover offshore accounts or any oddball savings plans at RBS
with 85k they could bail me out 10 times :)
And it's £85k at EACH of these financials, over 100 of them.. http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/list_banks/2011/nov11.pdf
The United States has been wary of additional resources for the International Monetary Fund to help Europe.
Not according to douchebag, David Frum
Having recently acquired overwhelming levels of public support for his use of the veto there is no way that Cameron is going to sign the UK up for even more IMF-Euro bail out money.
Anti-Eu sentiment is now running very strongly in this country. The British public have finally woken up and realised that being part of this undemocratic superstate project brings no benefits to Britain. The EU just brings red tape, crazy socialist dictats and huge financial burdens.
British people do not want the euro. Somebody soon the EU elite will have to face reality and put the currency out of it's misery.
...and EU does not want GB with and the time bomb called "city"...
Cameron, Boris and the City are against the British people, they are a virus on Britain.
Britain doesn't produce anything, the population is uneducated and jobless, milked dry by generations of Tories and Labour (who were happy to have their pockets filled by the banks).
When the money finally does leave - and it will - Britain will be a windy, desolate place...
Reminds me of the US by the way...
The money is moving you Anglosaxon idiots, open your eyes and you will see!
Is anyone seeing weird things on the Bloomberg website? Did it get hacked?
@freewheelin franklin
Yes, Frum is quite amazing, just saw a cnn interview with him, his recommendations are to "mute" Ron Paul whenevr he comes on to speak and that it is perfectly fine to loan U.S. taxpayer money to EU, (If they need it) which in his mind they do not at the moment.... amazing.....
When you take fiat from one to give to another what happens when the well is dry>>why you borrow against the earners future income..can go on for a long long time as we all have seen..here in the states it started with the depression gov of the 30s and expanded in the 60s with our" great society "and more under bush and of course obuma.
socialism the worm that eats the heart of a healthy nation until death.
now the quick drug for the "worm" is debt more public debt until the side effects of that drug kill the patient.
socialism so plain to see the drab landscape of old russia and east block with gray people in gray poor quality homes and clothes is the future if all our nations do not turn away form this evil worm.
"IMF Loans Likely To Fall Short Of €200 Expected As UK Pulls Rescue Funding"
Don't you mean 'million' or 'billion'? - if it's just €200 then I'll stump it up just to see the charade carry on a little longer.....
We can have a whip round - I got 20 left over from my holidays - cash, no messing - anyone else?
IMF = Idiotic Mother Fuckers
It is a complete PONZI scheme ... taking money from the ones who need it and giving it back to them is the role of IMF ...
If Cameron commits significant funds to the IMF to rescue the eurozone, then it will create political hell in Britain amongst the electorate.
The thing is that the majority of the voting British do not want to be in the EU, never mind, joining the EMU or upholding it through public funds; they see that the EU has very little benefit for them and brings only problems and taxation and employment pressures. The average Brit cannot use the greatest benefit of the EU for the average person -- free movement of labour -- as most tend to be majority monolingual.
From a British perspective, the EU brings nothing but expense, excessive regulation and huge amounts of immigration (in a country with an adult population of about 42 million, Britain has had 5 million Poles migrate to Britain in the last decade alone) that depresses wages for the working classes and puts pressure on public services and housing.
These are consequences that British people experience on a day-to-day basis. I am not too sure it can continue through recessive conditions without some kind of blowback.
Leave. NOW. There is no more room for UK in Europe.
Take whatever is left from the special relationsship which in the first place is hinged on UK being part of EU.
UK time is over.
You can thank Mr Cameron for that.
Auf Widersehen
Auf Widersehen
What language is that ? It isn't German
Oh your saying what I dream about every night, our own government running our country. Savings of 50 million a day and to be able to make our own law and fish in our own waters.
Canada: "We pretty much do what the US does"
US: "Well we a'int givin' more money if the Brits a'int"
British: "Let these common plebs sort out their own mess, far to messy an affair for Her Majesty old boy"
Canada: "We pretty much do what the US does"
Funny I thought the French simply called Paul Desmerais and he made a few phone calls, or is that only when the Liberals are in power ?
As noted over the weekend, the UK, having vetoed the December 9 summit, has made it clear it would also likely back out of its IMF mandated contribution to save the Eurozone. In other words, the €30.9 billion that was supposed to come from the UK to rescue French and Italian banks,
So banks are all that matter now.
Economies don't matter anymore. Jobs don't matter anymore. People don't matter anymore.
Keep banks going so governments can keep borrowing money and living beyond their means.
That's it. All that matters anymore.
Governments so deep in debt they have no hope of paying any of it back are going to lend money to the IMF so the IMF can lend it to banks who lend it back to those governments.
That's it. That's the future of the world financial system.
But that future is coming to an end. Sovereign debt is so high now banks and governments are going to collpase OR currencies are going to be printed into worthlessness.
My guess is currencies will be printed into worthlessness.
By the way, there is one more thing they can do before printing currencies into worthlessness: Steal everybody's brokerage accounts and retirement savings.
I believe MF Global was a test run for that.
And the test went pretty well. No pitch forks and rope. No armed revolution. Just a lot of bitching on blogs.
...which proves once again Americans are just a bunch of dumb bleating sheep
...who deserve getting all their wealth stolen from them.
No, I have no sympathy for stupid sheep who never learn.
MFG stealing a billion dollars from customer accounts should motivate everyone to close down their brokerage account and take everything out of their 401k / IRA / etc.
But it won't. Because stupid sheep never learn.
The technical details will always set nations against each other, in the Euro deal. Let us not forget the bigger problems that have followed attempts to bail out fiat currencies, in the past 3 years. Kicking the can down the road means that moving in the same direction encounters a bigger can. At this point, the can is now a 55 Gal. drum, filled with concrete. With the story about the Fed kicking in over $1 Trillion, that drum might end up filled with lead. This situation is the definition of a snare. It is impossible to escape, with all of the weight hanging by an ankle.
http://georgesblogforum.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/the-daily-climb/2/
GERMANY
The Bundesbank said it would be prepared to provide additional bilateral loans of up to 45 billion euros. But it would only be willing to do so if other EU and non-EU countries also provide additional funds.
ACTUALLY, Jens Weidmann also added that the Bundestag would have to approve any funds and that any contribution would have to be in the General Agreemwent to Borrow pot and not a special EU Welfare Budget pot. He was especially careful as he wants politicians on the hook for trebling Germany's IMF contributions rather than circumventing the German constitution. It appears to be in the USA that the Fed can engage in exercises outside the remit.
I thought plan Z.1.2 was for the ECB to lend money to the haves so they could give it to the IMF so that the IMF could use it to bail out the have not's? Thus not violating the letter of the treaties or openly monetizing the debts in a transfer union even if it breaks the treaty in both spirit and monetization.
No matter how you slice it this does not work for Germany. Germany has held all along that debtor nations must now live with gross austerity in order to run surpluses that can be applied to their Franco-German debts which bails out the northern banks. Anything short of that will drive inflation and split the euro into two tiers. But, Germany has never explained how they achieve deleveraging of the debtor nations without a deflationary depression, it is one or the other and this is Markel's choice, like Sophie's Choice she has to choose which of her kids to send to the gas chambers, only to find out later the other died in kindergarten anyway.