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Impartial Analysis Finds Only Ron Paul Would Cut US Debt Burden

Tyler Durden's picture




 

When one puts aside all the histrionics, all the melodrama, all the irrelevant secondary bullshit such as appearance, charisma, ability to tele-evangelize, all the irrelevant policies such as what planet the US should colonize or how women should procreate, and focuses on just one thing: which presidential candidate (not to mention president) will do the right thing for America, which is to make sure that it doesn't collapse under a record debt load, there is just one answer. And it is not even ours: it comes from the impartial Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget Project, aka US Budget Watch ("U.S. Budget Watch neither supports nor opposes any candidate for office. Its reports are intended to promote understanding and discussion of the federal budget and how specific policy proposals would affect the deficit") which today released an analysis on debt sustainability titled "The GOP Candidates and the National Debt." The answer is in the chart below.

That's it. That's all that matters. The rest is noise.

Full report below (pdf)

 

 

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Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:12 | 2191357 quebecgold
quebecgold's picture

Let’s play!

Let free the Tyler Durden in you!

Tomorrow(02/24) everyone tweets ‘’Greece Defaults’’ on twitter at exactly 10:03 (ET).

It’s time to see how bad the Algos will react to this storm of tweets.

Respond to this message saying you are IN!

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:15 | 2191364 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

Fuck Yeah!

I'M INNNNNNNN!!!

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:47 | 2191595 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

How do we overcome the "voter ignorance" that did in Perot?

That a vote for Paul is a "wasted vote" ???

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:05 | 2191637 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

My first eligible vote for President was for the perdue chicken man and whoooshing sound dumbo ears. At least that is what I remember the idiot box...I mean TV told me about him. Those who make sense are made to look nuts on that fucking Alpha wave brainwashing machine. I swear that news anchor is telling me to come talk to her....lulz

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 01:24 | 2191868 redpill
redpill's picture

I'm thankful for all the happy Ron Paul evangelists out there, but for my own part I've lost patience with people, and at this point I simply tell them they either vote for Ron Paul or they are part of the problem.

 

And if you haven't already, go to http://www.americanselect.org/, sign up, and support Ron Paul.  It needs to be made crystal clear to the GOP and everyone else that he WILL be on the ballot in November in some capacity, and they can either take advantage of that by nominating him as their candidate, or suffer the consequences of a three way fractured election.  This country won its independence by the actions of a vocal minority and by god we'll have it back again with one.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 02:00 | 2191902 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

@redpill

The problem is that the GOP is very likely in bed with the Dems and they would rather 'throw' the election than have Dr. Paul. So while I agree with your sentiment, I don't think the GOP leadership cares what you and millions of concerned Americans think.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 02:09 | 2191911 redpill
redpill's picture

I'm sure they don't.  But the time will come when they no longer have a choice.  I just hope that's sooner rather than later.  Thus, my advocacy.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 02:22 | 2191920 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

We can pray.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 02:36 | 2191925 Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

 

 

Can someone please explain what Ron Paul is saying in this clip from last night's debate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hn846S8ikI

The pill cannot be blamed for the immorality of society?  

Sex is immoral?  Having pre-marital sex is immoral?  Getting pregnant is immoral?  Getting pregnant outside of marriage is immoral?  i thought "real" libertarians were open-minded about sex and didn't pass moral judgement on those having sex whenever they want and with whomever they want.  

WTF?

This doesn't sound like a libertarian.  It sounds like a conservative Republican hiding behind the facade of a libertarian. Or maybe it's a libertarian pandering to a Republican audience?  I would expect a comment like this from Santorum, not RP.  

Max Fischer, Civis Mundi

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 02:45 | 2191939 Fluffybunny
Fluffybunny's picture

Sure, he's an old dude, he probably doesn't think shagging anyone everywhere is moral. But as a libertarian leaning person he does not want to project his morality on others through government force.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 14:09 | 2193363 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctity_of_Life_Act

you cuddly little voter you! soo cute.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 06:14 | 2192131 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

You are a shit sucking idiot.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 06:30 | 2192136 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I agree with FluffyBunny, IMO he is just making the point that you cannot demonize the pill

but yes, he is a libertarian trying to talk to Republicans into electing him, I'd say this is a fact

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 06:50 | 2192141 purplefrog
purplefrog's picture

Okay, I watched the clip.  Where in the world did you get all this other stuff you were talking about?  Your inferences are bizarre, but then your point is really you just don't like Ron Paul.  Why don't you just say that instead of creating all this blather?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 07:26 | 2192165 fourchan
fourchan's picture

dont they mean cost cutting? insted of cross cutting?

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 07:21 | 2195351 Baleful Runes 4 U
Baleful Runes 4 U's picture

That's because strictly speaking Paul isn't a Libertarian. The following (Paul's words) are not those of a Libertarian-

"there clearly is no right to privacy nor sodomy found anywhere in the Constitution. There are, however, states’ rights — rights plainly affirmed in the Ninth and Tenth amendments. Under those amendments, the State of Texas has the right to decide for itself how to regulate social matters like sex, using its own local standards. But rather than applying the real Constitution and declining jurisdiction over a properly state matter, the Court decided to apply the imaginary Constitution and impose its vision on the people of Texas."

A Libertarian would say a right to privacy IS found in the Constitution (mainly in the 4th Amendment). This is of course a very truncated version but it will have to suffice. If you think this only applies to homos doing whatever in their homes, think again.  Paul doesn't give a crap if your individual liberties are oppressed on the STATE level, just as long as the feds aren't doing it

"We must be interested in the spirit of our Constitution. We must be interested in the principles of liberty. I therefore urge my colleagues to oppose this amendment. Instead, my colleagues should work to restore the rights of the individual states to ban flag burning, free from unconstitutional interference by the Supreme Court." (RP 2003)

You know many Libertarians who believe free speech ends just because an individual state says so?  Plus, gotta love the doublespeak there (liberty means individual states can tell you what you can and can't say?!).

Anyway, Ive said it before. RP is a fucking fraud. His son voted for war on Iran (sanctions are an act of war), and placed a known neocon operative in RP's campaign.

Let the down arrows commence

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 12:56 | 2195583 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

Baleful: the ship USA is sinking!!! What's to be done about that?! Shall we all worry about our own bellybuttons? Do you think any candidate says what he or she really thinks?

Fight organized crime; vote for no one.

 

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 13:25 | 2195712 Baleful Runes 4 U
Baleful Runes 4 U's picture

I don't disagree with what you say.

 

 

 

 

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 01:22 | 2191872 Honey Badger
Honey Badger's picture

I'm bringing my pencil to the voting booth.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:24 | 2191682 BrotherBroGo1
BrotherBroGo1's picture

I am good to go unless CNBC stoogies beat us to the punch...Liesman hates to be the last to the party!!

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:18 | 2191370 AndrewJackson
AndrewJackson's picture

The sad thing is that would more than likely move this broken piece of shit market.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:28 | 2191388 navy62802
navy62802's picture

Might even crash the fucker. Now THAT would be epic.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:18 | 2191497 DrunkHarryReid
DrunkHarryReid's picture

In there like swim wear.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:52 | 2191604 LvM
LvM's picture

If I were fond of spreading disinformation I would be in. I am fond of being taken seriously instead.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:08 | 2191646 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

What is disinformation is the talking cocks that try to explain how these markets somehow reflect reality.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 09:47 | 2203400 LvM
LvM's picture

Yes, that's also disinformation. What's your point?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 10:52 | 2192532 pyite
pyite's picture

Note that Obama does just as good a job as Ron Paul at slowing down the rate of increase in the national debt with his budget proposal:

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/02/chart-of-the-day-7.html

Maybe this image will work:

Of course, because these are the only two sane people in the race, there is no chance in hell of their proposals turning into law any time soon.

 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:13 | 2191360 ultimate warrior
ultimate warrior's picture

Ron Paul because the rest are FAKES!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 01:01 | 2191850 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

It ain't a pork cut unless you hear a pig scream when the axe falls.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:19 | 2191369 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

We all route for RP but how many of us have sent moola to Mr Paul' s Campain, how come all the Zionist Schmucks have Super Pacs and we can't get him one too?!?! They say only boatload's of money will Winn this "Election" so?! Let's all buy Mr Paul one, eh?!

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:37 | 2191415 SuperVillain
SuperVillain's picture

I believe Dr. Paul has 3 super PAC's. Endorse liberty is well funded by the founder of Pay Pal. I'm glad you bring up donating to Dr. Paul and anyone who believes its bullshit to dump all this debt on our kids should as well.

My donations to Ron Paul 2012

Donation amount: $25.00
Transaction date/time: 2011-06-05 19:20:13
Transaction ID: *****5802

Donation amount: $50.00
Transaction date/time: 2011-08-16 10:18:43
Transaction ID: ******5403R

Donation amount: $50.00
Transaction date/time: 2011-08-20 07:09:26
Transaction ID: ******6942L

Donation amount: $100.00
Transaction date/time: 2011-12-06 10:25:33
Transaction ID: *****8417

Donation amount: $250.00
Transaction date/time: 2011-12-16 10:49:53
Transaction ID: *****9093

Donation amount: $500.00
Transaction date/time: 2012-01-13 23:03:37
Transaction ID: *****6121

Donation amount: $50.00
Transaction date/time: 2012-01-24 10:59:57
Transaction ID: *****3898

Donation amount: $100.00
Transaction date/time: 2012-02-03 23:15:49
Transaction ID: *****2394

Donation amount: $100.00
Transaction date/time: 2012-02-14 10:46:29
Transaction ID: *****0591

Donation amount: $100.00
Transaction date/time: 2012-02-20 14:16:09
Transaction ID: *****9455



Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:58 | 2191624 dolph9
dolph9's picture

Sorry but I'm too jaded at this point to donate to any politician, even Ron Paul.

Bring on the fucking collapse and let's see who's standing.  You can give your fiat to politicians.  I'll be buying gold.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 00:46 | 2191834 VelvetHog
VelvetHog's picture

Damn, that's 80% of my gross for 2011.  Nice job!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 11:59 | 2192808 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

the founder of Pay Pal

Feb 20, 2012  A report filed earlier today showed PayPal co-founder Peter Thiel donated $1.7 million last month to a super PAC supporting one of Romney's GOP rivals, Ron Paul.

Overall, Thiel has donated $2.6 million to Endorse Liberty, created last year to aid the Texas representative.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2012/02/presiden...

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:39 | 2191416 bdc63
bdc63's picture

I've sent money to the Paul campaign ... 3 times so far for this campaign and probably a half dozen times 4 years ago.

He has lots of supporters and donators, but no Daddy Warbucks that I know of.  That's okay - we'll win this the old fashioned way.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 03:52 | 2192003 Denver768
Denver768's picture

I've donated a bunch, but more importantly am a Colordao precinct delegate for the upcoming county and hopefully state caucus. 

Time to get involved people.  Go out and try to do something. Don't wait any longer.

 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:45 | 2191431 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

I've done more than donate money, I donated my TIME.  Get out  there and press the flesh!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 00:03 | 2191769 ihedgemyhedges
ihedgemyhedges's picture

EXCELLENT ADVICE!!  Yet, when I told my wife I wanted to "press the flesh", she said she had a headache..................

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:50 | 2191446 Clockwork Orange
Clockwork Orange's picture

Have thrown him plenty - if the establishment won't let him take prez, broker him in as Treasury Secretary.  See how Benjamin S likes that one.

 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:17 | 2191495 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

I have sent him $700.00 so far and plan to continue

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:21 | 2191373 Ponzified Plebe
Ponzified Plebe's picture

This is why RP supporters are considered extremists, you know, nothing is more extreme than common sense in the midst of oceanic levels of willful ignorance and wishful thinking.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:19 | 2191499 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

That is a quotable sentence. Good one!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 10:03 | 2192361 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Well stated. Paul is the only one that speaks the truth...which is why our fucked up populace won't vote for him.

Too into "liking"...."oh he's nice"...and now with Barry Obangyi, the Kensyian Commie..."he's cool".....

I have given up on this system we have in place...it is totally broken. I hope RP sticks it out.....

I'd hate to see a 3rd party....that would probably clinch it for Obangyi...and this country would slide into the abyss (which it already has an excellent start).

Too many takers now....not enough makers.....and the populace dumb as doorknobs...which is fertile ground for the loser libs and dummy evangelical GOP....

 

 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:22 | 2191375 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Ron Paul- a chicken in ever pot you wanted it in bad enough to make it happen..

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:23 | 2191378 vh070
vh070's picture

Giving too much credit to the electorate?

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:23 | 2191379 jm
jm's picture

If real estate prices continue to decline, people will continue to be underwater on their biggest liability.  This makes them insolvent. As long as they have cash flow they will pay down debt.  If they have no cashflow they will default.  This creates huge demand for dollars because of paydown and bank loss provisioning.  A bull market in dollars means a bear market for everything else.

ZIRP floods the world with liquidity, but it can't be forced into housing, so the tide that raises all boats is uneven, relatively more going into food and fuel. 

Deficits are the only thing standing in the way of self-reinforcing household balanced sheet deleveraging.  Cut government spending and you likely end up with implosion. 

All the rest is smoke and mirrors.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:29 | 2191390 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

But wait, how is crude soaring? Don't we have a deflationary collapse? Or perhaps someone always forgets to factor in central bank response to hyperdeflation which is pushing two buttons: CTRL and P.

But yes, Joe Sixpack will feel much better when his mortgage is $500,000 and his cup of coffee is $852 quadrillion.

Smoke and mirrors maybe, but the item reflected is an exponential chart.

Read Sean Corrigan's Santayana's Curse for a totally different perspective than that indoctrinated by years of flawed propaganda.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:40 | 2191421 jm
jm's picture

ZIRP floods the world with liquidity, but it can't be forced into housing, so the tide that raises all boats is uneven, relatively more going into food and fuel. 

 


Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:43 | 2191428 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

But yes, Joe Sixpack will feel much better when his mortgage is $500,000 and his cup of coffee is $852 quadrillion.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:45 | 2191433 jm
jm's picture

You and I agree that ZIRP isn't a solution, leading only to inflation in consumables that don't require leverage.  So monetary policy eventually becomes a dead end.   

Fiscal policy is the only answer to avoid implosion.  

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:49 | 2191445 israhole
israhole's picture

Who's talking ZIRP?  We're to negative rates already, aka NIRP.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:52 | 2191448 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

fiscal policy is monetary policy.  Fiscal policy dictates that more debt be issued.  It's why where the money went never really mattered.  Fiscal policy is just the cover.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:10 | 2191480 jm
jm's picture

Fiscal policy transfers money, albeit wastefully, directly to households and companies.  Monetary policy transfers money indirectly through the financial system... and it isn't working the way the Fed wants.  House prices continue to decline despite huge liquidity injection.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:25 | 2191685 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

The only way to fix this is either:

1) Forgive the debt and recapitalize the system using gold, allowing gold & silver to trade free of derivatives and taxation.

2) A hyperinflationary collapse as central banks print cash to cover every last scrap of debt.

The solution is, was, and remains binary.

Whether there is civil unrest or not depends on whether adequate reforms are enacted.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:52 | 2191450 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

 

 

 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:25 | 2191513 DrunkHarryReid
DrunkHarryReid's picture

I wish I could retweet specifically this post.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:58 | 2191618 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

I'm hoping that you don't have a speech impediment.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:58 | 2191458 SDRII
SDRII's picture

Just curious where does the gov't get its money to pay since the Fed is already eating the Treasury fecal matter? Arguing fiscal policy is arguing monetary policy, unless of course you are pushing the USD/IMF European austerity program "solution." Oh wait, it is neo keynesian MMM to the rescue...

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:01 | 2191466 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Exactly.  I thought I was agreeing with him originally, but I guess I'm not.  I do think that huge reductions in government spending will speed up the implosion, but that doesn't mean that massive gov't spending is the solution.  THERE IS NO SOLUTION. 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:26 | 2191689 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

 

 

The only way to fix this is either:

1) Forgive the debt and recapitalize the system using gold, allowing gold & silver to trade free of derivatives and taxation.

2) A hyperinflationary collapse as central banks print cash to cover every last scrap of debt.

The solution is, was, and remains binary.

Whether there is civil unrest or not depends on whether adequate reforms are enacted.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:06 | 2191472 jm
jm's picture

I'm not arguing that the Fed should be the one putting a bid on treasuries-- and by implication risk.

I'm saying that if households are deleveraging then corporates or governments have to leverage to avoid collapse.

This isn't Keynesian or any other crap ideology.  It's drawing conclusions from facts. 

 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:54 | 2191606 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

I didn't realize that governments leveraging themselves and increasing spending to goose GDP would AVOID COLLAPSE LOL!

I think you have it backward. Governments taking on the debt of banks or nationalizing them has only increased the risk of collapse and the damage that the collapse would create in the first place. Had banks impoloded it wouldn't of draged down all the governments with it. Now that a majority of countries have used their central bank as the bad bank purchasing toxic assets and printing to infinity we have only guarenteed the destruction of the current global system.

It's already game over. You need to rethink what your facts are. Clearly you're a keynsian given the conclusions you draw from your "facts".

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:00 | 2191631 jm
jm's picture

The government didn't take out the sub-prime mortgages, though they enabled it a degree.  They just cleaned up after the imprudent debtors and creditors with a giant pooper-scooper.  Democracy tends to respond to potential social unrest in that fashion because it gets votes.  

Maybe I do have it backward, but I don't think so.  But this "Keynesian" crap is kinda empty like calling names.  Take on the ideas without labels.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:50 | 2191721 SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

Corporations delever with layoffs, less hours, or less per hour pay. This results in more defaults and foreclosures 4 years later. If sub-prime mortgages were the fault of the Banks' collapse, then $1.7 Trillion would have paid off every subprime mortgage in the country (read Nomi Prins). $3 trillion has been added to the deficit- $3 trillion has been added ti the Fed's balance sheet. A total of over $9 trillion has been thrown at the banks, and add another $500 billion a year in lost interest income to bank customers (their loss is the banks gain).

This mess is about the leveraged MBS offerings from Wall Stret. SUGGESTION: Watch INSIDE JOB and read CREATURE FROM JECKYLL ISLAND (5th edition).  

Back to the topic: Romney's calculations figure a positive growth number in the GDP column- a fairy tale based on inflated government statistics. Romney is a crony of the status quo, spewing their bullshit at every opportunity.

 

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 09:03 | 2192262 jm
jm's picture

Some of us have actually seen this unfold first hand.

Seen a lot of things that boggle the senses.  Japan running up debt to the tune of pver 200% d3ebt to GDP and still running.  and even wilder, people that are short JGBs positioning for some collapse have to pay a hefty premium over realized vol.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 01:26 | 2191877 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

The government didn't take out the sub-prime mortgages, though they enabled it a degree. 

Sub-prime is beside the point, how ever the government caused the collapse in subprime by creating the conditions that allowed the housing market to bubble up and eventually burst via fair housing act and Alan Greenspan. 

They just cleaned up after the imprudent debtors and creditors with a giant pooper-scooper. 

The only people to get "cleaned" of this mess were the creditors, and what pretty much every government did was transfer risk from the banks to the soviergns. If you wanted to continue the analogy they took their shit (creditors and debtors) and made citizens eat it.

Democracy tends to respond to potential social unrest in that fashion because it gets votes. 

Democracy? Don't you mean oligarchy? I am pretty positive that greater than 50% of the population was AGAINST bailing out the banks. 

Maybe I do have it backward, but I don't think so.  But this "Keynesian" crap is kinda empty like calling names.  Take on the ideas without labels.

Ok

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 08:49 | 2192237 jm
jm's picture

Subprime was the first domino to fall, the rest has followed.

Plenty of debtors got to squat because the banks never had to froce anyone out of their homes because they were recapitalized and didn't have to exercize collateral.  Bothe sides of the mess benefitted despite people wanting to deny it. One can actually argue that forestalling foreclosures is why banks were treated with such kid gloves.  The alternative would have been very, very messy for most people.  It isn't pleasant to admit, but it is true.

The people that eat it are the poeple that loved prudently and can be taxed to pay for the others' mistakes.  Not saying any of this is right or fair, just true.

It we do live in an oligarchy, which is pretty true, is our fault for letting it happen.  If it is not our fault, then there is nothing we could or can do about it, so make the best of a bad situation and make decisions in the best interest of you and your own.

Thx 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:58 | 2191761 malek
malek's picture

In the end you're saying someone will wave a magic wand and get us out of this mess. Somehow avoiding big pain.

Can't you live without delusion?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 06:13 | 2192130 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

The Senate has NOT come up with a budget in over TWO years!  How's that for a fiscal policy?  Don't hold yer breath, you'll only pass out.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:46 | 2191434 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Which is why in addition to the typical items, I'm stockpiling coffee.

/semi-sarc

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 00:39 | 2191785 hangemhigh
hangemhigh's picture

TO: TD

"But yes, Joe Sixpack will feel much better when his mortgage is $500,000 and his cup of coffee is $852 quadrillion."

dude.....a 1/2 mil mortgage and an $852 quadrillion starbucks latte macchiatto is a gang banging deal when.......... sure thing shadow money is a moon-shot levered freebie......the hottie barista has a nice rack, gives great head.......and that cup of sloppy joe's comes with a sith lord death star  happy meal.................

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:44 | 2191430 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Virtually all money is debt with interest tied to it.  Aggregate debt must be in a state of constant expansion or you face cascading defaults.  Consumers are maxed out, corporations are maxed out... governments stepped in to pick up the slack.  It's the final rung of our ponzi scheme monetary system unless we discover some alternate life form willing to take on some debt. 

The whole system is evil from the start.  There is no way out.  Time to start over.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:16 | 2191491 jm
jm's picture

Pretty much agree, except:

There is nothing evil about it.  Far from equilibrium, corrupted, sure.  But I reserve "evil" for things worthy of the word.

There may or may not be a way out.  Seems wrong to me to stand by when it is people that depend on current income (= jobs) that will really get destroyed by some "reset". 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:35 | 2191553 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

It's your last paragraph that explains why the system is evil.  It's evil because there is no way out.  It's evil because the mess it is going to make of people's lives has been inevitable all along.  It's evil because it enriches parasites at the expense of hard working people.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:55 | 2191613 jm
jm's picture

Evil is what Hitler and Pol Pot did.  Let's keep things in perspective.

As far as no way out:  no one can predict the future.  Once debt is reduced to the point of servicability, it is no longer a Ponzi, and the risk of collapse fades.  Playing for time can be a pretty cool hand.  

As far as the reset: it is what will inflict max pain on the most people.  Be careful what you wish for.

As far as parasites: lawyers, politicians, lobbyists and bureaucrats blur the lines more than a banker does.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:28 | 2191694 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

So if we can't put a face (Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.) on it, it's not evil?

Go fuck yourself.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:34 | 2191706 jm
jm's picture

Just two examples.  Plenty of evil in the world.  Plenty of base, crude, needlessly angry, hopeless stuff too.

Some idiot that took out a subprime and some loser bank that processed a ninja are just a tweedle dee and tweedle dumb pair that deserve each other and everythign they get.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 01:30 | 2191882 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

I think his point was that fiat money is evil because the lender essentially owns the borrow. The bank essentially takes on no risk while the borrow takes on all the risk.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 08:57 | 2192253 jm
jm's picture

Well, a bank takes on credit risk and wants in exchange collateral security in the case of default.  How is this evil?  A bank didn't make currency fiat.  I posted above that printing money endlessly leads to bad outcomes.

I would prefer that as a society we take out debt not to pay for some squatter or to subsidize unemployment.  Rather to pay for bright students independent of who they are to get engineering degrees and such, and not history degrees.  This is just an example of how to make government speding less wasteful and creat positive incentives instead of just throwing money at a problem in a way that demoralizes the human spirit.

 

 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:34 | 2191711 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Evil, preditory. Semantics. Corruption of a monetary system, through forced issuance, is the surest way of destroying honest transactions and eventually nations. Evil, born of and associated with the enforcement, manifests itself in many ways. One such manifistation that underpins the system as we know it today, was the Rothchild's manipulation of the markets by betting both ways on the outcome of the Napolianic wars. They evilly crushed England's economy by foul means. They ruthlessly plotted and implemented their take-over of the monetary system and instated their own. All of these manifistations could have been easily avoided but not for their conspiring cohorts in the halls of power.

Benign? No.

Evil? Depends on your metric. 

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 07:33 | 2192174 fourchan
fourchan's picture

evil is stealing old peoples money silently through inflation and enslaving the future to debt..

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:46 | 2191593 chairsatan
chairsatan's picture

Where did you find the book (Santayana's Curse)????

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 01:24 | 2191876 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

There are multiple printers running at the same time, theoretical and physical:

1. At the Federal Reserve (central banks), where Ben is printing FRNs, "Notes".

2. At the Treasury/Governments, where the politicians are printing government debt, "Bonds".

3. Outsourced by the CBs, printing physical bank notes. This can only be done preconditioned on printing press 1 and is a subset of the quantity in 1.

4. The digging up of gold or other physical monies

If it was only 1 and 3 we would have an unencumbered money supply. But printer 2 negates the effect of printer 1 and printer 3 can only run on the condition of printer 1. Hence printer 2's output is encumbered by the bonds. It is the collateral relationship that causes this. The symbolism of "printing" implies that whatever has been printed will exist forever, but this is not the case for printer 1 and 2. When the debt is payed off, both the "note" and the "bond" disappears. Both are essentially paper. They are like matter and antimatter. They are created and destroyed at the same time. The housing market is a microcosm. No supply of new collateral -> no new loans.

The effect of the first one is inflationary on the money supply measure (the "Notes"). The effect of the second one is ultimately deflationary, because it locks up the output of printing press 1 as it wants to "suck in" these "notes" in payment of the bonds. As more and more bonds are issued ("printed"), the "sucking sound" gets louder and louder. Issuing more bonds to obtain FRNs to repay interest does not make the newly issued FRNs less encumbered, in fact, they are exponentially more encumbered. The first printing press will not run unless the second one runs, because the fed buys bonds only when it receives collateral (e.g. Treasury Bonds). So it is very possible that the failure to keep either printing press running will result in a rapid deflationary collapse.

Due to the fractional nature of the system, there are hence two possible "runs":

1. A collateral run: If everyone would try to withdraw their deposits (collateral) they would not be there (the 'classic' bank run on a fractional lender/deposit institution)

2. A note run: If everyone would try to repay their debts, especially the governments (return the notes to the issuer to fulfil the bond terms, whether it is a commercial or central bank etc), there would not be enough notes to do so

In the first case, they have plugged it with FDIC and infinite borrowing (expansion), but the systemic issue grows larger and larger.

The second case can be plugged by allowing unencumbered monies (like gold) to extinguish the bond notes or by non-debt-backed note issuance that are "legal tender" for the debts. But at the moment it seems like it is not plugged. I suppose this is the underlying concern of jm.

In both cases however it is the attempt to escape the debt-money system that will collapse it either way, unless it is expanded. It's like in musical chairs: add more people or reduce the chairs, someone will be found standing. An increasing level of ponzi perfection will be required to plug the leaks.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:34 | 2191407 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

You're going to get lots of down votes, but you are right. RP is exactly the man we need to champion our next monetary system. As for this one, he'll only speed up the collapse (also good news).

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:42 | 2191425 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You do know that housing actually FELL for most of Weimar, right?  There was something like one month where it hyperinflated, and even then it was WAYYYY behind the curve.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:47 | 2191439 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

There has been a Paradigm shift in real estate that has changed everything. Working Americans are now mobile. They can no longer assume they can buy a home and keep a job within a reasonable commute distance. Their next job could be 50 or 500 (or more) miles away. With rising gasoline prices no one can afford a daily 100 mile round trip commute. Working Americans no longer buy houses, they rent so they can be mobile. Our Politicians and Elites have no idea that this has happened yet. They assume that everyone still wants to buy a home. Real Estate prices will continue to plunge as ever more homes that no one wants to buy remain empty until someone can buy it to rent out to the newly nomadic American Worker.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:55 | 2191456 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

You're way ahead of the curve. Right now, working Americans, for the most part, are still anchored in place by their mortgage. Once the defaults truly gather speed, then you'll see what you describe, but for now, mortgages are a yoke on mobility. I work in the staffing industry and I talk to people every day who say they can't relo because they can't sell their house.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:20 | 2191502 jm
jm's picture

That may be a growing trend, but it doesn't matter for those underwater on an existing mortgage.  

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:29 | 2191385 CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

The proud display of foreign affairs approaches and geopolitical ignorance during the most recent debate in AZ should be enough to disqualify all candidates except for Ron Paul for POTUS. That would be the case if the Merican people were not so ignorant to the truth.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:28 | 2191387 non_anon
non_anon's picture

saw that in 1972, McGovern promised to end the war in Vietnam but he was marginalized by the press as RP is today, I'll still write in RP as I did in 2008

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:35 | 2191410 froghat
froghat's picture

This Tyler Durden fellow is a communist

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:36 | 2191414 alpharack
alpharack's picture

RP is the perfect hedge against the burden of debt for sure.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:38 | 2191417 weyes1
weyes1's picture

Yeah yeah yeah.

Don't forget the only thing that matters.

He is Unelectable.  

They'll make sure of that.

What else matters?

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:39 | 2191420 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

well of course, the debt is very important

we're seeing that in greece and europa

tyler put up a mikeKreiger peice earlier which bears reading;  most of us can see the same gestalt mike "sees" i would think

whether the quantum field collapses there, that fast, is a matter of opinion, but it sure as hell could

one of the best paragraphs blogged here this year was a few days ago, and i don't recall which zeroHead said this, but it was something to the effect that we had an electoral revolution w/ the teaPart just 2 years ago in a mass reaction to "hopium" and...nothing much happened! 

last summer came and went and the debt ceiling goes wherever TPTB want it to go, and the superCommittee just couldn't figure out anything

so, all we gotta do is elect rPaul and we got a shot at a stick save for theRepublic?

i'm in!

if you could imagine how totally fuked up our country would hafta be to actually elect anybody who could change this corpo-fascist collectivity... well, as far as this pirate can tell, we're just about there, BiCheZ!

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 21:53 | 2191453 Heroic Couplet
Heroic Couplet's picture

Phil Gramm only had to be senator from Texas to repeal Glass-Steagall, which had kept the bank system stable in the US for 60 yeasr.

Ron Paul is right in the place, the US House, where all legislation begins. Are Mitch McConnell and John Boehner behind Ron Paul, supporting legislation he introduces? of course not. Ron Paul is a Republican fraud.

Ron Paul needs to state a clear date, and if doesn't accomplish xyz by that date, working only through the US House of Representatives, then he needs to resign and go home. He'd have a comfortable living as an MD, and he's part of the party that claims to want small government, so what's he even doing in Washington?

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:30 | 2191533 Baleful Runes 4 U
Baleful Runes 4 U's picture

These Paul-ites might as well wait for Spiderman to save them.

Haven't you noticed how RP goes easy on Romney, and even defends him (ie on Bain)?

Incidentally, Paul's son voted for Sanctions on Iran http://www.opencongress.org/vote/2011/s/216

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:22 | 2191678 FMR Bankster
FMR Bankster's picture

Strangely enough RP's son thinks for himself and sometimes disagrees with his dad. I can live with it. And as far as RP going soft on Romney I'm in Iowa and he beat the crap out of him on the air here. He's using his $ in the best way possible. He knows the other guys will beat the hell out of Romney so why not turn his $ elsewhere? Seems like a reasonable plan. And it's not like Gingrich and Santorum are not war mongering, big spending, Washington scumbags.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 12:54 | 2195656 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

Dear Baleful: war's good for business; invest your children -- and what's good for business is good for Texas. I'll never vote for another Texan, ever, though I think RP better than all the others.

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:25 | 2191512 dognamedabu
dognamedabu's picture

I live in BC Canada. They just slashed budgets, the feds also..It is almost like they know..And this land(Crown land) is their little testbed. Yet the question remains..Why is it supposedly good you are saving my stolen dollars? It is like praising a theft who starts to freebase his own crack so you SAVE!. Like FUCK! I mean come on. Word to ya all. Canada is being setup as a 'model' for the first world. If you think there is differnet rulers running shit between Sacksville and Sarasoda I have some land to sell you in Saskatoon. 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:34 | 2191547 DaylightWastingTime
DaylightWastingTime's picture

i'm not gonna buy anyting unless it reaffirms my credit card mcmansaion lifestyle, all those things in the bargain bin are just stop lights for my shopping cart. but because of my higher state funded education, i am going to blow through them in quest for the shiny because after all, its's my patriotic duty to be a consumer . introduce fiat shackles and central bank cackles, all depressions are power grabs. what's better than cheap labor? cheap money. but we have to kill to maintain value, find a villian. especially if they sign their name on a death certificate with a quill drowning in an oilwell. can't wait for  press on the next venezualian coup,  don't die yet, you would choke your conspirators. after all opec is a chicken we'tre trying to roast but the head is problematic.  only because innovation doesn't have superior lobby skills. in no bid we will trust. 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:42 | 2191575 DionysusDevotee
DionysusDevotee's picture

Yeah, but hes RAYCIST!  So.....

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:28 | 2191698 digalert
digalert's picture

Former governor Ventura compared the parties, democrat/republican, to Pro Wrestling. In front of the camera, on stage they duke it out (fake), but behind the scene their all buddys.

Ron Paul scares these leeches

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:40 | 2191722 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

I can understand the Republicans being in disarray and having a tough time fitting corruption into their rhetoric, after all being nominally 'pro-business' is a venerable tradition for the GOP.

But watching Obama and Dems simper and prance about like cheshire cats seemingly oblivious to the massive damage that they've done to their credibility and to the Nation's future by placing Goldman Sachs agents in the top economic posts just infuriates me.  Whether it should or not...it does.

Then everyone pretends that Ron Paul tripling his national support in the past six weeks, as he sits second to Romney in delegates....isn't happening.

Guess what:  Once corruption destroys America, women's rights, race relations and religion are just bugs on the fascist windshield. 

Luxury issues to be forgotten in the wilderness of camps and fearful nights under the glare of drone searchlights.

But the majority still think those are the priorities...that or who is the tallest, or has the most scary music in their ads.

Still we soldier on.  This country wasn't built by quitters and it won't be rebuilt by quitters.

 

Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:57 | 2191760 SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

yo, peeps, am I the only one who sees Romney is using a POSITIVE GDP growth number in his stats? lets argue about the Gawdamm NUMBAZ!!!  (Hopefully the debates will finally turn to this when the debt ceiling is again front & center).

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 00:01 | 2191767 Dermasolarapate...
Dermasolarapaterraphatrima's picture

Ron is The Man!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 00:42 | 2191828 DaylightWastingTime
DaylightWastingTime's picture

i believe in rp but he's the bayonet on an awful gun of hegemony,

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 05:54 | 2192121 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

Ron Paul is NOT your saviour. Nothing to see, move on.

History tells us a certain Austrian born fella put people back to work at a time when his adopted country was in despair. Be very careful what you wish for.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 08:18 | 2192203 Silberadler
Silberadler's picture

Obama is a poor puppet entangled in the Washington porkbarrel.

Likely he was not aware what hell of a job he got himself into. Now you see for yourself where that hopeful *Change* went.

The President of the United States of America is not a wizard, he is not an allmighty king who can rule per decree.

The DC porkbarrel is a sharkpool and the POTUS needs to know how to navigate in all this corruptness.

Obmama failed.

Ron Paul may have more experience, he may be connected better - yet as a single person withpout proper troops in the background he ain't going nowhere - should he be elected President.

Likely US sheeple will decide otherwise - just watch CNBC and all the other crap.

Just as with Dubyahs second term.

A mere catastrpohy for the US and the world.

Apoplogies - I am an outsider but that is the way I see it from the distance.

Cut your enthusiasm and try for some more realism. It will save you from the next big disappointment.

Western democracies all over (see EU and elsewhere) have developed into one dumb corrupt scam.

A bit like the Roman empire in its final phase.

So  save your hope for yourself and brace for impact. Do not trust any pol. - whatwever they may promise. It will turn out as a lie.

As always...

 

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 08:27 | 2192209 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

Outsider's view:

Ron Paul is an evangelical, bible thumpin' conservative. Now, whether or not Conservatism can ever fully embrace Libertarianism is another question. As Conservatives tend to be more wealthy and business people who employ others, I'd say absolutely NO WAY! They want you in slavery and in debt, just as much, if not more than, the big Governemnt lobby.

 

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 09:15 | 2192277 kralizec
kralizec's picture

Umm...

I thought ZHer's were more astute on such absolute claims such as "the impartial Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget Project"?

From their site -

The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget (http://www.crfb.org) is a bipartisan, non-profit organization committed to educating the public about issues that have significant fiscal policy impact. The Committee is a bipartisan group of leading budget experts including many of the past Directors of the Budget Committees, the Congressional Budget Office, the Office of Management and Budget and the Federal Reserve Board. The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget is housed at the New America Foundation. New America is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit public policy institute that focuses on long-term issues facing the country.
http://usbudgetwatch.org/about-us-budget-watch I thought ZHer's hated these fuckers? And the New America Foundation (a leftist sounding name if I ever heard one!) - Headed up by a MFMer's and Google-punks who sit on the CFR & Bilderberg Group! http://newamerica.net/about http://newamerica.net/people/ted_halstead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Halstead http://newamerica.net/people/steve_coll http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Coll http://newamerica.net/people/eric_schmidt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Schmidt And their funding list looks like a Bilgerburg convention, eh? http://newamerica.net/about/funding These asshats look like a bunch of left-wing elitist douchebags to me!  Question is, did Tyler get played here, or did all ZHer's get played here?  Why oh why would a bunch of elitists come up with a report that makes Ron Paul and only Ron Paul the champion debt-cutter in this years Republican contest for President?  Hmmm?  Who could that possibly benefit in the general election?  It'll come to me...give me a minute...
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