This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

India Joins Asian Dollar Exclusion Zone, Will Transact With Iran In Rupees

Tyler Durden's picture


Two weeks ago we wrote a post that should have made it all too clear that while the US and Europe continue to pretend that all is well, and they are, somehow, solvent, Asia has been smelling the coffee. To wit: "For anyone wondering how the abandonment of the dollar reserve status would look like we have a Hollow Men reference: not with a bang, but a whimper... Or in this case a whole series of bilateral agreements that quietly seeks to remove the US currency as an intermediate. Such as these: "World's Second (China) And Third Largest (Japan) Economies To Bypass Dollar, Engage In Direct Currency Trade", "China, Russia Drop Dollar In Bilateral Trade", "China And Iran To Bypass Dollar, Plan Oil Barter System", "India and Japan sign new $15bn currency swap agreement", and now this: "Iran, Russia Replace Dollar With Rial, Ruble in Trade, Fars Says."" Today we add the latest country to join the Asian dollar exclusion zone: "India and Iran have agreed to settle some of their $12 billion annual oil trade in rupees, a government source said on Friday, resorting to the restricted currency after more than a year of payment problems in the face of fresh, tougher U.S. sanctions." To summarize: Japan, China, Russia, India and Iran: the countries which together account for the bulk of the world's productivity and combined are among the biggest explorers and producers of energy. And now they all have partial bilateral arrangements, and all of which will very likely expand their bilateral arrangements to multilateral, courtesy of Obama's foreign relations stance which by pushing the countries into a corner has forced them to find alternative, USD-exclusive, arrangements. But yes, aside from all of the above, the dollar still is the reserve currency... if only in which to make calculations of how many imaginary money one pays in exchange for imaginary 'developed world' collateral.

On India's induction into the dollar unluck club, from Reuters.

An Indian delegation has been in Tehran this week discussing options for payment and the source said the decision to pay in rupees was made after a meeting there.


"The Central Bank of Iran will open an account with an Indian bank for receiving payment and settling its import," the source, who has direct knowledge of the matter, said, adding the new system will start "soon".


The source did not specify the name of the Indian bank. But other sources have said that Iran could open an account with India's UCO Bank as it does not have any interests in the United States.

Who's this India country anyway?

India, the world's fourth-largest oil consumer, relies on Iran for about 12 percent of its imports or 350,000-400,000 barrels per day (bpd) and is Tehran's second-biggest oil client after China. But Washington has snapped tighter financial sanctions on Iran and wants Asia, Tehran's biggest oil market, to cut imports in a bid to pressure the Islamic nation to rein in its nuclear ambitions, which it suspects are aimed at making weapons.

And, oh yes, we forgot Turkey -the (lately very pissed off) gateway to Europe.

Turkey and Iran said on Thursday they want to increase financial transfers and that work is underway to strengthen banking ties.

When the dollar fails, and currency are devalued, barter begins:

India Trade Secretary Rahul Khullar said this week that the Indian delegation to Iran would work around the U.S. sanctions to protect oil supplies and promote Indian exports.


The government source said Iran has agreed to step up imports from India which added up to some $2.7 billion in 2010/11 and including oilmeal, rice and tea.


"This will cushion them (Iran) to some extent from exchange rate volatility," the source said.

Ironically, and as has been stated here many times before, by enacting the proposed sanctions and embargo, the US, but mostly Europe is doing nothing but shooting itself in the foot, as it opens up a brand new pathway of not only outright defiance, and thus political brownie points domestically for the likes of China, of the US, but it will allow the "Asian dollar exclusion zone" to buy even more crude, at cheaper prices, while in the process it is forced to build closer monetary relations with its neighboring countries, relations that rely less and less on the world's increasingly less relevant reserve currency.

Asian support for U.S. sanctions is vital since the region buys more than half of Iran's daily crude exports. The European Union has agreed in principle to halting Iranian crude imports and could finalise the ban on Jan. 23.


China, Iran's biggest crude customer, has rejected the U.S. sanctions as overstepping the mark and defended its extensive imports from the second-biggest oil producer in OPEC.

Necessity may be the mother of all dollar-exclusive invention, but Obama is surely the father of necessity.


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:13 | 2083427 deflator
deflator's picture

You bitchez didn't think USD hegemony would last forever did you? Oh, just as long as your lifetime?  "oh thats better".

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:13 | 2083431 trav7777
trav7777's picture

export land model means the death of the petrodollar.  This is the sign you should look for.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:16 | 2083434 holdbuysell
holdbuysell's picture

Come again? What's 'export land model'?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:35 | 2083460 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture


Well, let me tell you all this, given that India is totally controlled puppet state, with former IMF folks in charge of everything, means that the world is being weaned off the petrodollar.

9 years ago, such actions brought war and hell-fire (iraq). Now? A newsarticle?

The writing is on the wall. the BRIC Wall perhaps?


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:36 | 2083477 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

You are mistaken. Khaddafi just attempted to drop dollar. He had no nukes, so we killed him and took over. Iran, no nukes - yet - so Isramerica will attack precisely to stop this flight from dollar via nukes.  

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:39 | 2083484 GiantVampireSqu...
GiantVampireSquid vs OWS UFC 2012's picture

Exactly, fucking stupid Iran, dropping the dollar in election year.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:53 | 2083503 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Ah, nothing that four aircraft carriers can't try to fix.

And maybe it's time to bring back something that we have not heard for over three years..

"We support our troops but we don't support their mission'"

Or is that improper with this Messiah-In-Chief running things?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:56 | 2083519 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Thank god there's only 3 (2?) there now. I wouldn't try it w less than 6. Actually, I wouldn't try it at all. But what to do? Don't do it, eventual dollar collapse. Do it, (probable) immediate dollar collapse.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:06 | 2084012 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

A circle of pearls should contain this menace!

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 13:37 | 2084295 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Then watch for IMF to evolve into the Super CB with fractional reserve debt money (SDR) creation authority.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 15:56 | 2084723 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

RBI releases First Financial Stability Report Says Limited Risk to Financial Stability, but Monitoring Required on an Ongoing Basis

As announced in the Annual Policy Statement of April, 2009 the Reserve Bank of India established a Financial Stability Unit in August, 2009. The Second Quarter Review of Monetary Policy in October, 2009 made specific mention of a periodic Financial Stability Report (FSR) for India to enhance transparency and augment confidence in the financial system. The Financial Stability Report (FSR) published today is the first of these reports and is an attempt at institutionalising the implicit focus and making financial stability an integral driver of the policy framework.

In general, the Financial Stability Reports will focus on reviewing the nature, magnitude and implications of risks that have bearing on the macroeconomic environment, financial institutions, markets and infrastructure. It will also assess the resilience of the financial sector through stress tests. It is hoped that FSRs will emerge as one of the key instruments for directing pre-emptive policy responses to incipient risks in the financial system.

The FSR will be a key supplement to the evolving institutional arrangements in the coming months. The specific composition and the role of the proposed Financial Stability and Development Council (FSDC) is yet to crystallise. But the role of the Reserve Bank in any future arrangement, as regards financial stability, will continue to be critical.

This inaugural report details the prevailing financial system in India and also gives some background on past financial stability initiatives.

The OeNB’s biannual Financial Stability Report provides regular analyses of Austrian and international developments with an impact on financial stability. In addition, it includes studies offering in-depth insights into specific topics related to financial stability.


Dec 2011


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 15:58 | 2084724 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

Apart from credit growth, the surge in renminbi deposits in Hong Kong was another important factor behind the fast growth in foreign currency deposits. Renminbi deposits rose from RMB314.9 billion at the end of December 2010 to RMB553.6 billion at the end of June 2011, reaching 18.4% of total foreign currency deposits. The growth in renminbi deposits was mainly driven by a net increase in renminbi receipts by corporate customers through cross-border trade settlement. Renminbi trade settlement conducted through Hong Kong banks reached around RMB800 billion in the first half of 2011, more than doubling the 2010 total.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:00 | 2084740 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture



Norman T L Chan: Hong Kong – an offshore renminbi business centre

Speeking points by Mr Norman T L Chan, Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Monetary Authority, on the Regulatory Requirements for the Adjustments to Renminbi Risk Management Limit and Net Open Position, Hong Kong, 17 January 2012.

* * *

The development of Hong Kong as an offshore RMB business centre achieved encouraging results in the past year. Trade settlement using RMB reached RMB2 trillion; RMB deposits almost doubled; and total issuance of dim sum bonds exceeded RMB100 billion. I am very confident that the trend of solid development will continue in 2012. With the continued growth in both turnover and depth of the offshore RMB (CNH) market in Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) considers that conditions are now ripe to appropriately relax certain regulatory requirements on the RMB business of banks in Hong Kong. First, on the regulatory requirements of the RMB net open position, the HKMA has decided to raise the limit for RMB net open position, from not exceeding 10% to not exceeding 20% of the bank’s total RMB assets or liabilities. Second, currently the HKMA requires each Participating AI to maintain the sum of RMB cash or balances with the RMB Clearing Bank and the People’s Bank of China, Shenzhen branch, at no less than 25% of its total RMB customer deposits (referred as RMB risk Management limit). The HKMA has now decided that Participating AIs can include two more types of RMB assets, namely “RMB sovereign bonds issued in Hong Kong by the Ministry of Finance of China” and “RMB bond investment through the Mainland interbank bond market”, in the calculation of this limit.


Looks like all those Muni's are going to be rolled onto the banks balance sheets..


The Muni, State and National Bond Market just got covered in China.

offloading the Bonds to the Banks Frees up how much cash? Buy more Gold and Silver to trade to Iran for a discount on Petro Purchases?

 and while the World is burning bridges that lead to America.. our Government still is exporting wealth to all corners of the Earth.

America has been gutted and is now not only being gutted.. but as well being shown the door by these 3rd World Countries.

So America has been Gutted by short sighted Duly Elected Government Officials..

and now those same Duely Elected Lobby Whores who sold America for pennies on the dollar.. are cutting America Throat with regard to America’s reserve currency status.

One day people will wake up and look around and ask what happened? where did it all go? why did the U.S. Government do what NO standing Army in the World could do (at the time)... destroy America.

Mean While Washington DC does NOTHING to improve the Quality of Life or service the aging infrastructure of America.. instead Wall Street spends Trillions in China taking that once backwards farmer nation Vertical.

India? we provided the monies to the nuclear power who's new bestest friend is Iran.. and has been for a good little while!

so was it Russia or India or a bit of both who got Iran up and going with its Nuke Program? or was it Turkey and France?

it doesnt matter!

Our Country is being driven by short sighted, quarterly bonus seeking bottom feeding trash!

and they have a 0% FED Window to draw down from to fund their ongoing and never ending lobby of short sighted profit seeking.. all the while those who have a clue and are screaming STOP! are considered Terrorists.

Where the FUCK? is the NSA or CIA or any of them? no one inside those offices are smart enough to see America being destroyed?

they are just smart enough to prosecute "We the People" and make sure to over look Wall Street is only covered by Civil Liabilities!

Dumb Fucking Sheep are the cause of this.. because they are not smart enough to grasp what is right under their noses. The facts, actions.. are ignored in favor of swill spewed in heavy rotation by Wall Street owned media..


K C Chakrabarty: Crisis preparedness in interconnected markets –

prevention is better than cure

Keynote address by Dr K C Chakrabarty, Deputy Governor of the Reserve Bank of India, at

the Programme on Crisis Preparedness in Interconnected Markets, jointly held by the Centre

for Advanced Financial Research and Learning (CAFRAL) and the Toronto Centre, Canada,

Hyderabad, 16 January 2012.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 17:18 | 2084946 Road Hazard
Road Hazard's picture

Believe me, there are plenty of sheep to go around. Why aren't the citizens of Germany dragging Merkel around by her hair towards the gallows? Why haven't the citizens of Greece gone full out rebellion and torching every government and bank building in sight? The citizens of the USA aren't the only ones sitting by being complacent as their leaders destroy their economies.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:38 | 2085205 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

The UK is also dumping the dollar and trading with China in yuan:



LONDON - A growing number of British retailers are paying their Chinese suppliers in yuan.

"Businesses have been talking about the possibility of paying in local currency since the yuan's peg was relaxed in June 2010," Sam Ford, head of Risk Solutions at Barclays Capital, told China Daily in an exclusive interview.

But it is only in recent weeks that the talk has turned into trades for Barclays' clients, Ford added.

According to Barclays Capital, the investment banking division of Barclays PLC, more British retailers are paying in yuan to achieve cost savings of up to 8 percent.

With the yuan having appreciated at least 7 percent against the dollar since June 2010, Chinese suppliers commonly embed a "buffer" into dollar-denominated contracts to guard against further yuan appreciation.

"There was a growing number of companies switching to yuan for trade settlements in the third quarter of 2011, showing that businesses are now more comfortable with this payment method," Michael Vrontamitis, regional head of product management of Northeast Asia at Standard Chartered Bank PLC, noted.




Fashion retailer H&M is considering yuan payments. The company buys one-third of its products from China, its most important source.

Nils Vinge, head of investor relations at the Sweden-based retailer H&M Hennes &Mauritz AB, said: "At present, H&M pays all its Asian suppliers in US dollars. The deregulation of the yuan creates opportunities for us to pay our Chinese suppliers directly in their local currency. We are now investigating this opportunity."(CHINA DAILY)

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 18:55 | 2085109 g speed
g speed's picture

thank you JW  I read and re read your posts-- You are an asset to ZH and fight club  +

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:58 | 2085382 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

"why did the U.S. Government do what NO standing Army in the World could do (at the time)... destroy America."

Cloward and Piven, baby...the mohammedan-in-chief's playbook. It's his sworn mission to bring the US down, all the way down!  All of this is no accident.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 18:12 | 2085031 Freegold
Freegold's picture

I' m looking out for freegold to happen. It's just a matter of time. It will happen.

Gold, go get you some :)

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:40 | 2083488 Troll Magnet
Troll Magnet's picture

shit...all ya bitchez better stock up on some gold and silver before too late because they ain't takin' our fiat trash soon!! go get some, bitchez!!!

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:49 | 2083507 AbruptlyKawaii
AbruptlyKawaii's picture

ruh roh

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 04:18 | 2083689 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Dammit, does this mean we have to kick the whole worlds ass now?

Do we have that many drones? No, but we have Team America, let's go get them dollar terrorists!!

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 05:43 | 2083740 i-dog
i-dog's picture

The "Axis of Evil" will soon include every country outside of NATO ... and a few inside NATO as well, if any choose to drop out of the EZ ... LOL

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 06:30 | 2083766 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

NATO is sooo 1980s. It should be disbanded.  Or just reduced to the US and the UK.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:54 | 2083990 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

The true "Axis of Evil"

USA, Great Britain, France and Israel.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:01 | 2084002 john39
john39's picture

going to be a painful day when the american sheeple wake up and figure that out.  most will probably spontaneously combust before the realization fully manifests.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:51 | 2084049 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Hey, I didn't. Actually, I'm not wondering if the end is near anymore as I know it is near and I've never been happier. The truth shall set you free.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:55 | 2084051 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

If I am able to be completely objective about the current state of Planet Earth, an interested observer, so to speak, with no preconceived notions or emotional attachments, I would probably think that the Americans are the assholes in the room. Of course, as an American (or anyone from any nation/society/culture), I have biases that have been programmed into my consciousness since my brain began cognition, so it is extremely difficult to be objective. I WANT America to be what I was programmed to believe it is, but it gets increasingly difficult to believe that it will be, or ever was, for that matter, the pristine example of democracy and righteousness.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:06 | 2084753 prains
prains's picture

Dawg, you're correct, USA inc never was,never will be,anything about truth,righteousness or democracy. many around the world have always known this but we also know there are many within USA inc that can lead the way out of this mess, their voice has yet to be heard on a large enough scale.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 18:04 | 2085021 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

Right, but those biases that are so deeply ingrained are why friends and family look at you like you're a fringe lunatic when you point out the inconsistencies between reality and what we were programmed to believe.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:53 | 2085231 akak
akak's picture

Oh, you mean I'm not the only one who gets that deer-in-the-headlight look from acquaintances, friends and relatives when I try to wake them up from their brainwashed, corporate-media-induced slumber, and try to undo at least a small fraction of their government-school lobotomization?

It's no wonder no civilized aliens have ever bothered to contact humanity ---- we are, as a species, demonstrably insane.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:18 | 2085549 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

No, you're definitely not the only one, akak. I think alot of us here are doing our part to influence those in our inner circle to take off the blinders. We've all gotten "the look". It's a small consolation to know that we'll be validated, and probably soon. In the meantime, keep on shining the light.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 23:57 | 2085744 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

When a gallon of unleaded gas and 2% milk are each $10./gal. the sheeple will be in full panic mode, but it will be way too late by then.  

The other night in the debate Ron Paul mentioned "there will be a day when the dollar loses it's reserve currency status and then there will be real problems".  Guess we will just have to save that clip for "Ron Paul was right 2012" on You Tube.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 13:50 | 2084330 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"Allies in Evil" sounds so much better.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 23:35 | 2085715 Bolweevil
Bolweevil's picture

So, we need to start a land war with China then just mosey on over to India when we're done. Easy breezy.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:57 | 2084877 4horse
4horse's picture

ruh roh

spooks . . . deep in the derring scooby doo doo of hindo whodo all the way to bim-bom-bay

too chabad lubivitchers went to alla that trouble training'n'timing only to again be heard, as on 9/11, celebrating as tv reports confirmed targeting some of India’s top anti-terrorist officers. . .including Hemant Karare, who were in the process of investigating an explosive case of terrorist activities by army officers and politicians . . . yet among the first murdered, most incredibly, was actually this top Anti-Terrorist Investigator himself, Hermant Karare. It is very strange that these exceptionally experienced men would so easily be killed. Some reports say they were ambushed. It was at the time that the news of these men’s demise was announced that sounds of celebration came from the Chabad office.

Karkare, 54. . .had returned to his state cadre after a seven-year tenure with the Research and Analysis Wing, Indian external intelligence agency, in Austria. His death is likely to affect the probe into [his ongoing investigation of]the Malegaon blast.

occidental's coincidentals, 50-1: Nariman House, a Chabad Lubavitch Jewish center in Colaba known as the Mumbai Chabad House, was taken over by two attackers and several residents were held hostage . . . and both perpetrators were killed. Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka Holtzberg, who was six months pregnant, were murdered with four other hostages inside the house by the attackers.
According to radio transmissions picked up by Indian intelligence, the attackers "would be told by their handlers in Pakistan that the lives of Jews were worth 50 times those of non-Jews."

One Of The Handlers Headley Posing As A Jew?

The question is, who is David Headley/Daood Gilani, CIA Spy, Al Qaeda Spy, L-e-T Spy or ISI Spy?

David Headley planned the Mumbai Terror Attacks for more than two years...Headley’s "cover" was an "immigration service business" in Chicago, owned by co-conspirator Tahawwura Hussain Rana. This business provided the means to forge travel documents and smuggle other terrorists from country to country. Headleyposing as an American Jew while making video recordings of targets  frequently traveled to Mumbai to plan the attacks by paramilitary murderers. He scouted the targets and was in Karachi during the attack. But David Headley also had been an agent for the Drug Enforcement Agency. His ability to travel freely and train with L-e-T has raised suspicion about Headley being a CIA agent. The Mumbai attacks were certainly a False Flag operation, the blame initially going to another "Al Qaeda" affiliate L-e-T. But . . . David Headley and his involvement in 26/11 is being concealed by Pakistan and by the US Government.




edit: in light of, what, that little jimmie rodgers . . . !

Once I get
to Bim-bomb-bay
You can bet
I will stay
to Bom-bim-bey
That's where I'll settle down with chabad as the house
On the kill on the way to Bim-bomb-bay
I'll settle down with habad as the house
On the kill on the way to Bimbombey

Jing-a-ling-a-lie oh (jing-a-ling-a-lie oh)
Jing-a-ling-a-I say (jing-a-ling-a-I say)
Jing-a-ling-a-lie jing-a-ling-a-lie
Jing-a-ling-a-I say-ay-ay
Lying all the way to mum-bom-bay 

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:18 | 2084027 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

"shit...all ya bitchez better stock up on some gold and silver before too late because they ain't takin' our fiat trash soon!!"

fa shiggidy my niggady...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:16 | 2083562 GoodMorningMr.V...
GoodMorningMr.VanRumpoy...'s picture

Gaddafi dropped the dollar but what got him killed was his push to move to a gold backed dinar.


India, and china Russia et al, are just moving from federal reserve fiat to their own fiat.


The elite are powefulful and have no real emotional ties to the west, the countries they were born and raised. They are globalists. But, They speak fondly of China, it's what they want to use as their new base. Soros, lieberman etc. Even Jim Rogers has begrudingly moved to Hong Kong. Not because he likes what's happening to the west and what will continue to happen, but he knows the elite love China's "state capitialism" and he can't stop them from turning it into their crown jewel.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 03:48 | 2083673 SHRAGS
SHRAGS's picture

He chose not to move to Chinese cities like Hong Kong or Shanghai due to the high levels of pollution causing potential health problems for his family; hence, he chose Singapore.  wikipedia


Jim Rogers lives in Singapore.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 07:57 | 2083826 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Both Shanghai and Hong Kong ARE cities in China (now that the latter is repatriated) but, please do not equate Hong Kong to Shanghai...They still have quite a few years left from the 50.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:12 | 2083936 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture




I used to have great respect for Jim Rogers.

NOW, however, I think he borders on one of the most dangerous ex-pats one could imagine.  He does more to hurt and damage his former America and it's recovery then any one I can think of.  He profits from every economic downturn he can help create and influence.  He is no friend of America or Americans, make no mistake about that.  One day he or his children will want to crawl back like the deserting coward he is.  He is NO hero.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:39 | 2083972 zilverreiger
zilverreiger's picture

he doesnt want to be a hero, he doesnt particularily care about america

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:06 | 2084007 xela2200
xela2200's picture

I wouldn't call him a deserting coward, but he reflects a common expat mentality. I sometimes go to different forums to check out how expats are doing in other countries. It is always the same US bashing. What else do you expect? If the US doesn't go down in flames, then that means that they are WRONG. Uprooting families, selling a home, etc was all for nothing. The funny thing is many also complain how their local country can take lessons from the US or Europe in many instances (customer care, banking, utilities, security, cleanliness, etc). There is even a guy starting some american colony in Chile. I think the coolaid is included in the price.

The truth is the US is FAR from becoming a third world country. Trust me, I come form a third world country.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:28 | 2084034 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Yeah, stupid expats wanting to be free!  They should just submit to one system or another and shut up about it and never try to improve anything!

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 13:47 | 2084176 i-dog
i-dog's picture

So true. America was originally settled by protestants fleeing religious persecution by the Micks in (primarily) 6 European countries (England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Germany and Holland). Those "brave, freedom-loving" pilgrims were "saints and heroes" ... while the expats removing their families from the thieving clutches of the criminal gang in D.C. today are apparently "cowards". Go figure.

The real cowards are those deer stuck in the headlights ... too gutless to move and just "hoping" for a "change". LOL.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 17:09 | 2084925 xela2200
xela2200's picture

On the contrary, staying and fighting in your own way the system is not submiting. Running away is giving up. The problem is that we now live in a world economy filled with near by villages. I would almost dare to say that world government already exists to an extent. It is not like you can get on a boat spend 3 months crossing the atlantic and be isolated from the world. Those days are gone. Sorry no more mayflower guys.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:34 | 2085592 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

Many expats are actually helping by removing their money from the clutches of our gov't.

Many expats actively participate in online discussions, education ,etc, and try to fight for the same cause, they just happen to be across a line in the sand when they do it.  I'm always amazed at the psychological effect of a border.  Americans in another place can still participate in trying to bring about change.  To suggest that expats are running away and giving up is a little flawed IMO.  I think many expats are the ones who deeply feel the pain of what is happening here.  

Nobody is so critical of people who escaped other countries and came to the U.S. to avoid circumstances in their home countries.  In fact, they are praised for their foresight in getting out while they could.  Many expats have simply gone where they could get a good job opportunity and a higher standard of living.  I don't believe that makes them un-American or cowardly.  

Clearly voting at the polls has done nothing for these people.  Some choose to vote with their feet.  And take the would-be tax dollars with them.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:35 | 2085596 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

plus Singapore is a beautiful city/state!

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:34 | 2085600 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

plus Singapore is a beautiful city/state!

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 15:43 | 2086827 ucsbcanuck
ucsbcanuck's picture

yeah, just don't expect freedom of speech.

Or dissent.

Or a functioning parliamentary opposition.

Oh, and nepotism. Not in Singapore! The country where the current PM is the son of the former PM, and was groomed to take over from a young age.

Luckily though, the current PM, like his old man, is very smart. He was interviewed on Inside Job.  

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 13:03 | 2084206 smb12321
smb12321's picture

Why visit other forums for anti-American views?  Many posters have long ago passed into la la land where the  West is evil personified and such paradises as Libya, Iran and N. Korea are defended/praised.  It reminds me of the old Soviet propaganda where the stale Marxist society was held superior to America.  As my dad used to say, "Son, it's not a crime to be stupid for god's sakes why must they advertise it?"  lol

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:56 | 2084887 ironsky
ironsky's picture

It's now Russian propaganda. RT is relentless and watched by the whelps and grand whelps of the 60s American reds.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 14:48 | 2084472 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

xela... Since you mention Chile perhaps you should view this video...

Max Keiser : G Lira

Although the US is not presently a third world country, neither was Germany under the reign of Adolph Hitler...and Hitler, like our last few presidents, has not broken any laws, since the glorious leader now has the power to change the laws at his convenience.

When the US Justice Dept stands aside while client funds are stolen, as they were at MF Global, and absolutely nothing is done about the crime, then it is time to consider a relocation to a place that still respects property rights. BTW, MF Global is simply the beginning... I was expecting pension fund conversions into Ts before outright theft... shows how wrong even a skeptic can be.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:58 | 2084891 xela2200
xela2200's picture


Not only have I been tracking chile as a possible get out of dodge possibility, but I have actually gone and spent time in chile. It is not a bad place. Not without problems Santiago air pollution for one. I also like how they so pro market.

However, people forget that in the 70s chile was already another Cuba. Comrade and everything. It took a dictator, a lot of blood and about 10 years to make it into a market oriented country. The first thing people did after Pinochet was elected out was 20 years of leftist give me governments. They still sell Comrade Ayende t-shirts in the market. They have a huge sense of entitlement and are willing to protest big time for it. If you don't have "connections," it is 10 times more difficult for You. And forget about getting a descent cup of coffee.

What I am telling you is if you want to live in chile or anywhere else go live there for a few months. You might be surprised how good You still have it in the US. Trust me I am in the same boat. Desperately checking countries like Panama, Costa Rica, Uruguay, Singapore and some others. It is bad all over, and as a US citizen anywhere you go the government will keep tabs on you. You are still liable for income tax regardless of where you earn it. You need to declare any foreign bank accounts. Chile in particular signed a law last year of bilateral cooperation with the US. The US needs your money to spend and your children for the army.

Yes I know it FUCKING suuucks.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:40 | 2085612 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

xela2200, i am interested in what you think of Uruguay, if you have spent time there.  Chile is interesting as well.  I am wary though of the leftist/marxist tendencies, and the history of military coups in most of Latin America.  However, one of the appeals is that knowing one language, spanish, can provide so many country options.  If one country is trending down, other countries can provide opportunities without learning a new language from scratch.

Would love to here from anyone currently living in South America.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 04:00 | 2085998 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture


I think you should read the posts of 'Fred on Everything'. He has been living in Central Mexico for about ten years and is a US expat. Mexico has been and is being torn apart by the drug wars that exist because demand for drugs in the US create a multi billion dollar business. Fred is not politically correct and he calls em like he sees em.

Fred is a former reporter for a well known newspaper in DC, so he has seen it all. His columns are free, humorous, and some of them take me back to a time in America when kids could be kids during summer vacations... without parents being in constant fear of perverts harming or killing their children.

Here is the link...

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 16:55 | 2086918 xela2200
xela2200's picture


I actually find Uruguay to be one of my top choices. It is still far from the radar and "undiscovered" by the expat. It is what Costa Rica was 20 years ago before they got overwhelmed by gringos to the point that CR now has stricter standards for residency requirements. Getting a residency is very straight forward and don't play so many games. Chile has a good residency program, but You have to do it in country (forget embassy), and good luck trying to get a bank account in chile until you have your permanent residency. A year living off your atm card. Uruguay doesn't seem to have that problem.

I spent time in Monte Video. If you like beef, their cows are grass fed which makes it tasty and incredibly nutritious. There are actually more cows than people in Uruguay. I mention food because You would be AMAZED how important it is to get a good tasting meal.

Uruguay like Argentina is predominantly white europeans, so your next generation speaking perfect "Uruguayan" Spanish will be indistinguishable.

The level of corruption is low. Close second to Chile which is number one in Latin America. My respect to those carabineros. Also, it is not in the drug corridor (Colombia to Mexico). I am from central america and you take your life in your hands every day. You might end up in the drug trade whether you like it or not. Especially, if you have a cash busines.

Aside from the Foreign income credit, Uruguay is also a zero tax jurisdiction which allows you to take extra tax breaks. Remember, the country is small ( Washington state) and poor, so forget about the American job mentality. Unless, you have a highly skilled job. Otherwise, think business and a real one at that. I am from Latin America myself, and I see many expats coming in thinking of starting organic pineapple farms or butter fly sanctuaries. Forget that shit. You know English and the culture, so turism, English schools, exports, etc. Also, hard core boring businesses like food, manufacturing, technology, etc. In poor countries labor is cheap but capital is hard to come by. If you have capital, it will open many doors. If you are a carpenter and only have your tools, not so good.

I hoped that helped. Bring the red arrows now. And Tico Tiger no need to ridicule me to make your point.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 17:16 | 2084937 TicoTiger
TicoTiger's picture

As someone who freely left the United States more than 20 years ago, the "common expat mentality" you refer to (whatever that is), doesn't apply to me. I don't waste time bashing my ex-homeland. I'm too busy enjoying life where I am. Each country has positive and negative points. If I were to make such sweeping, uninformed statements like those you are trying to pin on expats I might say something like I would never trust anyone from a third world country, because we all know they are ignorant, dishonest, and don't believe in God, CNN or global warming.

Are you sure you're not the one drinking too much Kool Aid?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:49 | 2084047 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

Jim Rogers understands the true state of the world financial system better than you or I can imagine. The financial corruption runs deep and has entangled most governments around the world, including the USA. 

One can choose to move as far away from this corrupt system as possible or you can choose to pretend all is well and live your life with "blindfaith" in a corrupt country run by a corrupt financial elite. It appears you have made your choice. 

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:51 | 2085371 Seer
Seer's picture

Corruption always has existed and always will.  The reason why we're all up in arms today is because we're running out of usable resources (usable in that they're economically, energy-wise, to extract) and the corrupt ones are always the last ones to reduce their consumption, meaning, everyone else is seeing less and less crumbs.

"Jim Rogers understands the true state of the world financial system better than you or I can imagine."

I'd be happy to sit down and have a debate with him.  I don't, for a minute, believe that it's complicated at all: the "complication" is more about obfuscation than anything else.

What IS complicated is what we're going to do about it, what kind of system will exist that can operate in a low/no growth world?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:08 | 2084077 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture

Marco Polo wouldn't stay home, but brought noodles and paper money to the West that did us a treat, hey, mate?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 15:53 | 2084314 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

NO no no no, new evidence proves that Marco Polo brought noodles to the east, not the other way around.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 17:03 | 2084908 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

And let's not forget pizza...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 04:39 | 2083702 Last_2_Sense
Last_2_Sense's picture

Cynthia McKinney says she has a report that claims 12,000 US troops are in Malta waiting to go into Lybia.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 07:22 | 2083796 Treason Season
Treason Season's picture

Paul/McKinney '12

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 14:50 | 2084184 Manthong
Manthong's picture

JHFC! Projectile vomit all over my display..

WTF's with that? You are entitled to your opinion but if reason, common sense and integrity were cosmological characteristics, Ron Paul might be considered to represent systemic orderliness as manifest in phenomena such as the organization and equilibrium of galaxies and solar systems and Cynthia McKinney would certainly represent the collapse of matter into a singularity or, in common parlance a.. (fill in the blank).

 ..and don't blame me that no light is emitted from a singularity. 

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 17:08 | 2084924 Amish Rake Fighter
Amish Rake Fighter's picture

where does Biden fit in on that cosmic vortex of which you speak ?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:15 | 2083940 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture

get a grip on reality.  Any idea how big Malta is?  Is everyone standing on each others heads?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:56 | 2083992 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Reality is that Malta handles 3,500 tourist arrivals each day. So, with most of the troops on bases and on-board ships, the Maltesers might not even notice them.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:19 | 2084029 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Malta was one of the primary bases for British supply interdiction operations against the desert fox.  Quite useful geography/topography and a fascinating story.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 13:51 | 2084128 i-dog
i-dog's picture

It was also a staging pad for the British contribution against Afghanistan and, later, Sadman Hussein. It's a British habit ... they just "happened" to have more than 20 ships there on 9-11 ready to "assist" in Afghanistan just 4 weeks later. ;-)

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:40 | 2084845 swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

A friend of mine is a remarkable chef.  But he eats all his own food not just burned, but charred.  One time I asked why he liked his food burned to carbon, while he put together such amazing dishes in high-end restaurants.  He told me his mother had been a girl in Malta during the bombardment of WWII, and she came out of it with poor eyesight and senses of taste and smell.  So he grew up eating food she had burned to a cinder.  Eating scorched carbon takes him to his happy place, just as eating Marmite takes little British kids to their happy secure place.  I can't imagine civilians, little girls; surviving the kind of bombing and concussion that wipes out sight, smell and taste.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:30 | 2085006 Amish Rake Fighter
Amish Rake Fighter's picture

I always thought Marmite was some sort of punishment.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:57 | 2085241 akak
akak's picture

Marmite is Newt Grinchgrinch in a jar, minus the charm and with extra salt.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 14:00 | 2084355 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Hong Kong is the beneficiary of the China's "state run capitalism"...not China. As New York SHOULD BE but is not i might add. (That's how it always was in the past. Bailouts as something new. HAHAHAHA! That's a good one.) The USA post WWII is a continental longer a City-state stretched across a Contient or an Empire State stretched across the Great Lakes anymore either. The heart and soul of capitalism in the USA is California now, not New York. And the legal, managerial and logistical center is Washington DC..not New York...or as it was for some time Massachusetts, either. Moreover i see nothing to change this historical reality...something that has existed for decades one of course: shale oil. I mean "who the hell voluntarily moves to North Dakota?" My brother was the only one i'd ever heard of. Well...there was a couple from Pennsyvania...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 08:38 | 2083857 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

No nukes - yet

now India, as Iran's new best friend, will those India nukes be available to Iran.  Does anyone know how many barrels of oil are in an equivalent mega-tonne of tnt?

The Langley spooks will need to be very creative.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 09:33 | 2083900 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

Trading in a new currency....or should that read "nuke currency"?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:43 | 2083976 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Don't hoard too many of those Plutonium bulloin coins.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 13:50 | 2084334 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

This is a very intriguing development: India was always israel's ally-common muzzie enemies, but this really throws a monkey wrench into Nutty Netanyahu's wet dream attack on Iran, doesn't it?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 14:05 | 2084369 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

they've already attacked Iran. As reported here and only here: "Stuxnet." Israel has initiated a cyber-war and there's no way to put that genie back in the bottle. Throw on top of that the total annihilation of Iran's economy (again without firing a shot) and we have probably the worst form of total war imagineable. So much for the internet becoming a place to engage in commericial activity. Now it's a place to kill entire countries. How did this become "the Plan"?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:29 | 2084727 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

True, but that's not Nutty Netanyahu's wet dream attack, he gets a hardy thinking about those bunker busters.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 03:22 | 2085979 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

It got a bit more complicated with latest India move, but didn't change much if you pay attention. Both India and China have huge populations to feed and move around and it would be ludicrous to think they will buy into whole attack Iran, overthrow the government thing at the expense of uprooting their own populations and facing huge unrest after access to oil gets restricted (not that they already don't have headaches to deal with: ). US policies in the region require Chinese and Indian governments to be suicidal to ultimately save one tiny state very few like or even recognize in the Middle East. Recently, more and more countries also realize that US dollar can no longer provide for dependable medium of exchange in bilateral trade as its supply can be easily restricted through sanctions mechanism and in favor of political momentum, hence tendency to avoid it whenever possible.

For the US it's the law of unintended consequences in motion: who would think that attacking Iraq would strengthen Iran as a regional power and subsequent threat of attacking Iran would reinforce integration tendencies in Asia? It's the US policy exactly that is pushing Iran into China/India orbit at this point. US politicians choose to be blinded by what they perceive as military hegemony that works well against isolated cases like Iraq or Libya, but does little against bigger opponents except for alienating them.

As far as Israel goes, its geopolitical significance is overstated by a factor or at least 10 in public perception. They have a strong backing of the US and superior military (which is in itself derivative of the first), but that's mostly good for deserting Gaza and not nearly enough to take on Iran by themselves. Whatever the agenda Israeli politicians have, they will ultimately be limited in options by the changing geopolitical landscape - i.e. vanishing US influence and growing influence of Iran, Turkey + China, India. The perception is: time is running out to resolve problem of Iran's growing influence in the region (nuclear program mostly provides for plausible excuse to use the military option), which in itself sets the stage for confrontation beyond what was seen before. I don't think at this point it can be assessed with confidence who is who's ally (except for usual suspects), but I think going forward India and China will compete (in fact already are) for region's resources fiercely, with the rest of the world trying to make good of this competition and feeding both sides of the future conflict.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 04:21 | 2086009 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Boris the Blade... "For the US it's the law of unintended consequences in motion: who would think that attacking Iraq would strengthen Iran as a regional power and subsequent threat of attacking Iran would reinforce integration tendencies in Asia?"


Anyone who was paying attention to what the founding members of the SCO were doing about ten year ago... and, anyone paying attention to what SCO members and SCOs with observer status are doing today.

Of course, reading/viewing/listening to MSM will not inform anyone that the SCO even exists.

Meanwhile, PMs continue to flow from West to East as western central banks sell/lease into the markets in an attempt to prop up their failing fiats...and, after China recently read little Timmy the riot act about joint US/Israeli war games near the Strait of Hormuz, the US suddenly announced the games were on hold for 'budgetary reasons'... lol

The US gave up on diplomacy, I mean real diplomacy where there exists an exchange of ideas and some give and take on both sides, long ago. Now we are reaching the limits of what our military can accomplish without nukes and the limits of suppression that can be brought to bear on foreign economies because the dollar is losing credibility.

It's way past time that the US and Israel relearned the art of real diplomacy. The US can still negotiate from a position of strength but if we take on Iran and lose some large portion of our navy it will be a fatal blow to the US... Admiral Mullin understood this, the stupid pols/bankers do not.


Sun, 01/22/2012 - 08:14 | 2086163 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

The US gave up on diplomacy, I mean real diplomacy where there exists an exchange of ideas and some give and take on both sides, long ago.

True, it happened around the same time as Soviet Union broke up, leaving the US as only global empire. At this point it was possible to keep and reinforce this status quo by maintaining biggest military machine the world even saw. Trouble is, it depends on the rest of the world resources to keep running. It used to work until 2008 when US managed to maintain paper assets bubble expansion thus directing resources flow towards the US, but it faces increasing opposition, which will only grow.

And here comes the trap, one cannot simultaneously depend on the rest of the world resources and wage the war on it. SCO clearly represents biggest threat to this status quo with over 50% of world's population, significant land mass and other resources. US cannot counter it militarily as it would require waging land wars all over Eurasia (impossible given the US is a sea-based empire), at the same time to keep the empire running it needs to do exactly that (hence Afghanistan for example, but it's futile as we can see). Catch 22. Real diplomacy means voluntarily abandoning the empire, much like Gorbachev did with Soviet Union, maybe with even worse consequences given the US is more resource dependent and population expectations are much higher. At the same time, continuing the way it is, US itself is digging deeper and deeper financial hole for itself.

No good outcome either way, it is a choice between bad and even worse. 'Bad' though, would mostly mean significantly lower standard of living for majority and atremendous loss of prestige for a decade or so. 'Even worse' is the current trajectory of power and wealth consolidation, where ordinary Americans lose rest of their freedoms and wealth, while elites are pursuing unsustainable dream on a quest for global domination. Former one is totally catastrophic.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 10:09 | 2086306 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Boris ... I see it pretty much as you do. I don't see anyone altering the course that we are currently on and don't care who the next president is. Of course, Ron Paul would try to make some significant changes but I doubt he would live long... If Paul could get elected and put some people in charge of the Justice Dept that would do their jobs, if he could stop the 'signing statements' and roll back many of them, if he could repeal homeland security and stop the stupid war on drugs, stop the penal system from a cash crop industry, begin the downsizing of the mil/industrial complex, etc, etc...

Too much for a man of his advanced age who would be fighting every step of the way against entrenched bureaucracies... although FDR did make some really significant changes with almost no legs under him (not saying what FDR did was right, but he did make changes). Something similar to the Pecora Commission would be a good start along with a return of Glass-Stegal.

Maybe the US needs a good ol fashioned ass whipping by an upstart that has had enough pushing around? Of course that happened in Viet Nam and the ass whipping we took there didn't change anything except the 'all vollunteer military'.

Somehow we need to rid ourselves of the crooks that have bought our government and get back to a savings based economy. It's pretty obvious by now that Keynes was wrong and that govs will not save in times of plenty and that the Austrians were right. The only way to hold gov spending in check is with sound money that cannot be printed... and allow bk banks to go bk... and ALL bankers should be forced to have some of their own skin in their own banks...even though this is not fool proof, it's far better than what we have now.

The whole hair ball is disgusting to me... We have almost no men of honor left.  But, on the bright side it's been a pleasure talking with you.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 12:32 | 2086499 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

Likewise, thanks Snidley. One last thing to mention: there are bigger things at play than the will of certain individuals, be it president or anybody else to change course of the nation significantly. I came across generational dynamics by John Xenacis. He among other things explains difference between crisis and non-crisis wars (i.e. he differentiates between Vietnam being non-crisis war and WWII being the one):

Good interview with him as well on the same topic:

I long ago decided for myself just to study trends and not to stand on their way, whether I like what I think will happen or not. It's certainly scary and disgusting what is unfolding, or worse, is about to unfold, but little that we can do about it. Taking care of people that are important and informing those willing to listen and listen to the ones who has a clue, rest is water under the bridge. All the best.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 15:24 | 2086797 highandwired
highandwired's picture

Gaddafi wanted to bring in a new gold-backed currency.  That's why he was killed.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:52 | 2083508 AbruptlyKawaii
AbruptlyKawaii's picture

hey asswipe why dont you fight instead of whining about your Merikkan ex wife and japanese boses you cock suk wad fuk you and fuk indiaint for ever

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 05:36 | 2083736 akak
akak's picture

Your sagacity and eloquence overwhelm me.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 05:47 | 2083749 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Did somebody leave the door open?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:47 | 2084860 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

No.. People like him come through the cracks..

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:08 | 2084075 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

Sagacity is a great word. My compliments in using it in proper sarcastic context.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:45 | 2084160 zerotohero
zerotohero's picture

hey look at you eh - couple weeks on the site and spewing like you own the joint. Trying hard?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:17 | 2085281 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Welterweights should not be fighting middleweights...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:57 | 2083619 defencev
defencev's picture

That is exactly right. Obama actions make military strike against Iran pretty much inevitable. Otherwise, how are you going to persuade India and others that accepting Iranian currency in bilateral trade makes no sense...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 09:20 | 2083886 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"Otherwise, how are you going to persuade India and others that accepting Iranian currency in bilateral trade makes no sense..."

Well, for one I would like to see us sever ties with them.  All of the call center and IT work outsourced to the land of turbans should come back home.  That way, when I call for help I can speak to someone I understand.  Next step would be to repatriate all of their H1B Visa hacks and hire from within.  Finally, only allow imports from that region in USD (i.e. Mahindra Tractors, and the John Deere built there too).


I do not fear the loss of world reserve currency for the USD.  When they come to buy our agricultural products, then we can specify what method they use to pay for it.  As the world decouples from the hegemony of a world reserve currency, manufacturers will suddenly realize that it is becoming more efficient to insource all of that production sent overseas!

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:29 | 2084126 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Iam, what you suggest would be fantastic all around. 

trouble is the fulcrum of cost-basis has shifted permanently downward. How will you get American IT folk to work at $2 an hour? 

And truth also is, American "produce" is now well understood to be spreading illness and disease through poor factory farming methods, GMO

US is in a pincer grip of poor choices and awful current circumstances.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 13:22 | 2084228 i-dog
i-dog's picture

I'm afraid, ORI, that reality won't go down too well with Mr. Silbermann!

Imagine the quality of customer service given by Haaavaaad graduates manning the phones at $2/hour to pay off their $100,000 degrees ... and the quality of workmanship of the Princeton Masters of Social Work assembling Chevy Volts at $2/hour! ... and let us not forget the Yale Doctors of Law driving all the Mexicans off the land and harvesting all that produce at $2/hour for sale to the Chinese.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:37 | 2085206 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

So, do you really think that those jobs will come back here and pay $2 an hour?

You really don't know how this is working - the difference between what third world countries are netting for these jobs and what was paid in the USA is being stockpiled in the hands of a few.  Once those few keep trying to build or outsource those jobs, but can't use USD, then they'll just have to make do with less profit - or quietly go out of business.  The only reason they are taking advantage of this wage disparity, is because they can.  What will happen if that option is removed?


Your turn Mr. macro-economist.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:48 | 2085626 Seer
Seer's picture

I don't mean to be rude to India or anything, but I've never fallen for the notion that they're anything other than a flash in the pan.  What PHYSICAL resources do they have?  Like everything in the NWO/Global Economy, they were used and used up.  When people no longer can afford all the new gadgets there really won't be any more "phone" support: we'll be turning to each other because we'll be stuck at particular product versions/releases for a LONG time: new iCrap when you're in debt up to your eyeballs? really?

Nothing short of a debt jubilee will create any "unified" "solution."  And even then it's pretty much fucked because PHYSICAL resource costs will be way too high to achieve economies of scale such that we can all re-populate ourselves with the latest versions of iCrap.

Good on you for bringing up farming issues.  Don't agree that Mihindras are going to work out in the long-run (unless the company relocates to the US): nationalism and energy (transport) will stymie the current JIT global economy (the one that brought us IT professionals from/IN India).

Phrases requiring more attention:

- Can't push on a string.

- Economies of scale in reverse.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 05:47 | 2086017 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Seer... "I don't mean to be rude to India or anything, but I've never fallen for the notion that they're anything other than a flash in the pan. What PHYSICAL resources do they have?"


For starters the citizens of India own 15 thousands tons of gold... Yes, fifteen thousands tons and that is a low ball estimate and does not include gold owned by the government/banks of India.

iows... more gold than any other single country on earth.

gold = money = power

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 16:57 | 2086958 ucsbcanuck
ucsbcanuck's picture

Some days when I read ZH "Gold bitchez" posts and the way people make it sound like some novel strategy - I laugh.

Gold - South Asian (not just Indian) investment strategy #1 since... forever. Investment strategy #2 - real estate.

ZHers would have orgasms at the amount of gold on show at a Hindu wedding...

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 22:51 | 2087472 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"For starters the citizens of India own 15 thousands tons of gold.."

Which would be a good exchange medium for corn, rice and soybeans.  Maybe wheat too.  If we're feeling generous and need the gold to buy oil.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:09 | 2085419 tmosley
tmosley's picture

How do you get American IT people to work for $2 an hour?  You don't, you just devalue the dollar a hundred fold, then have them work for $200 an hour.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:53 | 2085511 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

TMose... and that is precisely the goal.

It is also why banks are sitting on millions of REOs... banks only care about nominal dollars when it comes to their over stock of homes. Once the dollar is near worthless the bank balance sheets will sparkle.

So we will watch wages rise in dollars while purchasing power falls in dollars.

J6P... get ready for $200 for a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon... While your minimum wage job will be paying $16 per hour. Such a deal, eh?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 15:52 | 2084708 falun bong
falun bong's picture

Make no mistake, having the world's reserve currecy AND terms of trade currency is the ultimate prize. It's bigger than corporate profits or oil. It's the home court advantage that all other nations wish they could get. Every other country has to be productive and earn a profit before they can get a barrel of oil, America just needs to fire up the printing presses. This is huger than people can even imagine.

Anyone who threatens it (Saddam, Gaddafi, Iran) has a target on their backs.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:21 | 2085295 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

True, but what's the Schoolyard bully gonna do when ALL the other kids decide to gang up on him??

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 08:22 | 2086195 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture up the printing presses.  Exactly but this time print yuan not dollars.  It is only paper and a promisary note to pay later.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 15:57 | 2084715 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

OrI is correct, and aware, of the growing resistance to amrkn GMO-fud,

This week BASF announced that it is moving its GMOs out of Europe. Will the English-speaking media lose its nerve and write about it? Based on past experience, my wager goes to the habitual policy of silence, and I expect that the news will continue all but unrecorded in English.

Clearly put: one of the largest among the few who banked on the GMO route to do agriculture is giving up in its own home turf, defeated by public opposition to its products which evidently do not live up to expectations.

the "when they come to buy our agriculture products" then we can dictate the terms story is OLD news - amrkn products - fiat, disease, "modified" fud products - people globally are becoming more resistant to the brand-label - but most HERE are completely unaware that the worm has turned.

sadly, corporate chemical companies ride roughshod over the amrkn populace. . .

America's farmlands to be carpet-bombed with Vietnam-era Agent Orange chemical if Dow petition approved

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 22:44 | 2087464 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

From the above link:

"(NaturalNews) A key chemical of one of the most horrifying elements of the Vietnam War -- Agent Orange -- may soon be unleashed on America's farmlands. Considered by world nations to be a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" (WMD), Agent Orange was dropped in the millions of gallons on civilian populations during the Vietnam War in order to destroy foliage and poison North Vietnamese soldiers. The former president of the Vietnamese Red Cross, Professor Nhan, described it as, "...a massive violation of human rights of the civilian population, and a weapon of mass destruction."

A key chemical in that weapon -- 2,4-D -- is just months away from being dropped on agricultural land across the United States. Dow AgroSciences, which along with DuPont and Monsanto is heavily invested in genetically engineered crops, has petitioned the U.S. government to deregulate a variety of GE corn that's resistant to 2,4-D, which comprises 50% of the recipe of Agent Orange.

Learn more:


WTF?  I spray my pastures regularly with 2,4,D (ester).  It is one of the key components of Grazon P+D.  If they are gonna' do this for me for free, I would really save some big bucks this spring!  If I could also convince them to add Tordon22, my cactus and mesquite problems would soon be gone.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 06:22 | 2086117 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

"All of the call center and IT work outsourced to the land of turbans should come back home"

"Next step would be to repatriate all of their H1B Visa hacks and hire from within"

Stop promoting socialism!

If capital is global then so is labour.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 22:49 | 2087454 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"If capital is global then so is labour."

I thought that was the point of my reply.  If our "capital" (fiat) is no longer globally accepted, then we should no longer accept global labor.  How is closing our borders considered socialism?  Seems to be the opposite (stop giving our jobs and money away).  I figure that since you use the spelling "labour", you reside in the UK, one of the biggest experiments of socialism to date, so you could better explain that to me.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:36 | 2083969 hampsterwheel
hampsterwheel's picture

Problem with a military strike at this point is seven fold:

1) There is no coalition of the willing
2) Russia and China are not going to sit on the side lines as they did with Iraq and Libya - they've had enough
3) There is no way the US can take over Iran like we did Iraq - totally different geography and people - the only way you can force Iran to pump oil for USD is to have blackwater reps maning the pumps
4) Americans are seeing through this "terrorism" war and wont tolerate much longer a few more thousand deaths over seas....

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:58 | 2084055 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Oh come on. Just imagine how stimulating WWIII would be.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 15:21 | 2084582 swoop72
swoop72's picture

it could be a weekly pay-per-view event.

arlee army for stats and joe rogan for color comentary. hell, dust off  Schwarzkopf and you have a full blown panel of experts!



Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:40 | 2084844 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I'll call your Schwartzy & raise you one Lee Marvin...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:56 | 2085517 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Hey, maybe we could once again see that little chicken shit Wolf Blitzerman run like a scared rabbit for the nearest bunker at the first sign of resistance?

Some war correspondent that azz hat turned out to be...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 19:55 | 2085237 ltsgt1
ltsgt1's picture

If Iran wanted the nuke, we should oblige and give them a few nukes. The Indians and Chinese can do whatever they need to do after that. The only ones crazy enough to actually want to use the nukes are the Muslims and the Jews. If we show the world we are just as crazy or crazier than the Muslims. The Russians and Chinese would do nothing but huff and puff.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 23:32 | 2085711 Seer
Seer's picture

"The only ones crazy enough to actually want to use the nukes are the Muslims and the Jews."

Apparently you don't listen to most of the chest-pounding politicians in the US.  Nor did you learn history, which shows the the US is the ONLY nation to have used nukes (and on a civilian population).

The entire story is just that, a Story.  It's a story to keep us from looking in the mirror.

That you'd believe that the Iranian clerics would allow the kinds of idiotic stuff that you suggest, well, idiotic...

What WILL happen, as is ALWAYS the case, is the the US will continue its relentless subversion of their internal affairs, looking to incite internal revolt, but only enough such that the US will be allowed to come in and "rescue" everyone: shown to the gates of the oil wells (just like in Iraq [US had Australian troops in these positions BEFORE Saddam was given the ultimatum - read "US lied that it was waiting to attack, the attack had already started"]).  China and Russia, as well as India, are going to provide interference against this; the US and Israel won't be able to push against This tide.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 00:03 | 2085756 ltsgt1
ltsgt1's picture

The "Rape of Nanking" was much more brutal and inhuman in comparison to the bombing of Hiroshima. The Muslims haven't stop killing Christians, Jews, Budhists and each others, Sunni vs. Shiite, since who know when.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 00:52 | 2085839 akak
akak's picture

The Muslims haven't stop killing Christians, Jews, Budhists and each others, Sunni vs. Shiite, since who know when.

I guess the Muslims hate them for their karma.

Christians have been known to kill a few "infidels" now and then as well.  Even with the expansion of Islam into Europe under the Ottomans, there is no Islamic parallel to the Christian Crusades, nor is there any real historical counterpart to the savage, purely Christian, internecine slaughter of the Thirty Year's War.

I think that most Christians have misinterpreted Jesus' "turn the other cheek" as advice on how to best take aim through the gunsights.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 03:55 | 2085994 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

If we show the world we are just as crazy or crazier than the Muslims. The Russians and Chinese would do nothing but huff and puff.

Well, the only thing that history teaches us is that it teaches us nothing: Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. And you, good Sir, are suggesting Americans embark on a self-destructive journey with enthusiasm and blindness. Why do you hate Americans so much?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:42 | 2083974 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

India for the backstab!

We should make our peace with Pakistan. Looks like we picked the wrong side.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:59 | 2084056 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Are you saying the US should be complaining about other countries' back stabbing?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:55 | 2084189 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

The US has supposed allies all over the world. India is just one of those countries (South Korea, Saudia 9/11 Arabia, France, etc.). Yes, being that the US does most of the heavy lifting, I think the US does have a right to complain about being backstabbed. What has India done for the US?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 15:08 | 2084538 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Yes, being that the US does most of the heavy lifting,I think the US does have a right to complain about being backstabbed"

 Hehe, that's rich.


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 23:40 | 2085721 Seer
Seer's picture

"the US does most of the heavy lifting"

Spoken like one of the Praetorian Guards!

Sorry, but that "heavy lifting" is in the form of OIL, which is stolen, er a, paid for using only the most genuine currencies known to humankind, ah, well, worthless USD.  And, meanwhile, the REAL price is paid by all those bombed out villages that got heavily lifted (by those heroic men/women pushing buttons from thousands of miles away).

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:41 | 2083466 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

How about USN control of the Briney Deep. US land wars failing in Iraq, Afghan. So now land-connected powers (esp. with nukes) can and are dropping the dollar.  

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:43 | 2083497 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

While not the export land model per se., you are correct in many ways...

Iraq appears to be a sucess, abeit a costly one. Look up Pyrrhic victory...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:51 | 2083505 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Yes, a victory that is in fact a greater disaster. Completed Shi'ite Crescent that US now trying to break by taking down Assad. Can't do it w Russian carrier battle group there: so long as it is, Assad has efffective nukes. 1914, closer and closer...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:14 | 2083524 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

You got a little pat on the back...

Don't let it go to your head...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:21 | 2083577 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

"Yeah. Who cares if some stupid princeling got his head blown off somewhere...."

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:06 | 2083540 Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

I am going to stay online for a bit longer, but far and away this is my favorite Katy Perry video.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:19 | 2083572 pakled
pakled's picture

Not sure what your referencing, but sexy video.


This is my all time favorite sensuous video

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:24 | 2083578 Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Christy Turlington is so hot in this video it would turn CompassionateFascist into an Israel-firster if it meant him getting with her.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:30 | 2083583 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Talk about coupled non sequiturs....

Do you two guys want a place to go off alone and look at videos together?


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 06:28 | 2083764 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Flakm... They simply want to derail any thread that has content that casts the US Dollar as a shaky piece of fiat shit.

Trolls, iows.

What is interesting about the India move to sidestep the dollar is that it brings them closer to the SCO.

SCO is growing stronger while NATO is weakening... Why? Because almost all NATO countries are in fiscal/financial deep shit.

If you don't know what the SCO is you have not been paying attention...

This Wiki link is a starter but is in need of updating...

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:09 | 2084756 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

such fine examples of the amrkn mind-capture, easily diverted from anything resembling "news" and back to the hidey-hole of tits 'n' ass 'n' brofest. . . safe, warm, stimulating. . .

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 12:22 | 2083587 xcehn
xcehn's picture

Sizzling hot.  One of the all-time greatest music videos imo:

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 16:11 | 2084762 falun bong
falun bong's picture

Naomi was hot, fer sure. Try this little French pop tart named Alizee:


Sat, 01/21/2012 - 18:02 | 2085019 DosZap
DosZap's picture


The Blond is Smokin................who is she.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 20:05 | 2085249 xcehn
Sat, 01/21/2012 - 06:12 | 2083759 mc225
mc225's picture

 check out taylor momsen:

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:01 | 2083927 stock trout
stock trout's picture

While I respect your taste, being the totally tasteless perv that I am, why not just go to redtube and actually watch girls kiss?

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:56 | 2083478 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Export Land Model is a simulation where an oil exporting country with increasing internal consumption and flat or declining oil production hits the wall....

It occurs when they run out of oil to export (in dollars)....

As a bonus, the dollar loses a bit more relevance as a reserve currency

Classic examples include Indonesia, the UK and more recently Egypt, it is no surprise that the wheels for Mubarak came off shortly when oil exports vanished....



Now, extend this to every exporting country and you start to understand how Peak Oil is playing out... (notice the tense) 

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:29 | 2083961 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

I believe Mexico is expected to hit ELM depletion in 2014 or so, as Cantarell plays out.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 01:56 | 2083518 Errol
Errol's picture

The "Exportland" model was developed by Texas geologist Jeffery Brown and colleages.  He observed the unexpectedly rapid decline rate in exports from oil former oil-exporting countries, and determined that their rapid decline in exports resulted not only from declining production, but increasing internal consumption.

Considering that Iran, Mexico, and Saudi Arabia all have rapidly expanding populations and subsidized gasoline, his model indicates that oil exports from those countries can be expected to decline much more rapidly that would be expected solely from decline in production.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 02:35 | 2083523 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Sam Foucher also contributed greatly... Westexas is the "spokesman" for the two of them...

Edit: In case it was not clear, J. Brown's handle is Westexas....

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 10:32 | 2083966 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Economize, Localize, Produce, and get into the non-discretionary side of the economy.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 11:33 | 2084040 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

I see so our carriers in essence will cause a rapid decline in internal petroleum consumption thus reversing the export land model, brilliant plan bamster..

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 23:55 | 2085742 Seer
Seer's picture

I think that I corresponded with Brown several years back: I lose track of these things.  Not sure if it was he (or me?) who brought up the "peak import" angle/phrase.  "Peak Import" (referring, of course, to the ability to import oil) and the realization that oil can in fact become scarce, are two reasons why the crisis will hit BEFORE the actual production peak occurs; this is also self-reinforcing, meaning that things could pop much quicker.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!