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The Inevitability Of US-China Conflict

Tyler Durden's picture





 

The question of whether conflict between US and China is inevitable is among the most important for the world as the US-China relationship, as JPMorgan's Michael Cembalest notes, is likely to be one of the most important issues of the 21st century. The inevitability view is sometimes explained by the thesis that countries rarely rise economically without also doing so militarily. The chart below looks at the major economic powers of the world since the year 1 at various intervals. Ignore for the moment some of the abstract issues which this kind of data involves; it’s pretty clear that China’s rise, fall and subsequent rise is something that hasn’t happened a lot over the past 2,000 years, and that the United States is on the front lines of having to adjust to it. Cembalest's recent interview with Henry Kissinger noted the impact of China's troubled relations with the West during the 19th century, which remains on China's political consciousness, and how China might define its interests in different ways than the West would, whether they relate to global energy security, North Korea, global warming, currency management or trade.

On China, and the not-so-inevitable clash of civilizations

At a client event in Beijing last week, I had the opportunity to interview Henry Kissinger on the 40th anniversary of his secret 1971 mission to meet with Zhou Enlai, and 1972 summit meeting with Richard Nixon and Mao Zedong. There are not many missions as impactful as this one was: within a few years, China’s re-opening began, propelled by Deng Xioping’s economic reforms. Reintegrating 20% of the world’s population following China’s central planning disasters of the 1950’s and 1960’s has not been easy for China or for the West, which has since benefited from lower imported goods prices from China, but saw an end to post-war manufacturing-led prosperity. The US-China relationship is likely to be one of the most important issues of the 21st century.

 

One topic we discussed was the question of whether conflict between the US and China is inevitable, a theme which has permeated a lot of academic and political science journals over the last 20 years. The “inevitable conflict” view has been advanced in different degrees by Yale’s Paul Kennedy, Princeton’s Robert Gilpin and most forcefully, by John Mearshimer at the University of Chicago. Similar concerns are found in “The End of China’s Peaceful Rise”, a 2010 article in Foreign Policy magazine by Elizabeth Economy, Director of Asia Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. The inevitability view is sometimes explained by the thesis that countries rarely rise economically without also doing so militarily. The chart below looks at the major economic powers of the world since the year 1 at various intervals. Ignore for the moment some of the abstract issues which this kind of data involves; it’s pretty clear that China’s rise, fall and subsequent rise is something that hasn’t happened a lot over the past 2,000 years, and that the United States is on the front lines of having to adjust to it.

 

 

 

 

Any discussion of China’s engagement with the world needs to factor in China’s troubled relations with the West during the 19th century. Kissinger spoke about the impact this era continues to have on China’s political consciousness, which you can grasp by looking at some data and charts: opium imported into China which addicted up to 25% of its adult population, the exodus of Chinese silver to England and India to pay for it, and the collapse in China’s trade surplus. The Chinese Imperial Commissioner sent a letter to Queen Victoria asking her to cease the opium trade, which was banned in China in 1729 and again in 1836. Britain ignored the request. After a Chinese blockade of opium ships, the British invaded in 1840, and easily defeated the Chinese. China was forced to sign the Treaty of Nanking, one of the more one-sided treaties in history. The opium trade then doubled, leading to another war (and Chinese defeat) 20 years later. The Opium Wars played a large part in the collapse of the Qing Dynasty and subsequent occupation by foreign powers. This is not seen as ancient history in China.

 

 

With this backdrop, Kissinger encouraged our guests to understand how China might define its interests in different ways than the West would, whether they relate to global energy security, North Korea, global warming, currency management or trade. Kissinger acknowledges the pressures that come from an ideological predisposition in the US to confront the non-democratic world, and Chinese tendencies to sometimes view cooperation with the US as being self-defeating. However, engagement with the West is now central to China achieving its economic goals, and incoming governments in both China and the United States have every incentive to maintain the status quo. According to Kissinger, while conventional theories of realism in international politics point to potential conflict, it would be an overly literal interpretation to consider conflict inevitable. Both sides have a lot to lose and little to gain from conflict escalation, creating conditions in which compromises should be able to be found. If he’s right, US-China relations would be another thing that could go right in the world, confounding more negative expectations.

 


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Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:16 | Link to Comment midgetrannyporn
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I had the opportunity to interview Henry Kissinger...

 

stopped reading right there.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:19 | Link to Comment Colombian Gringo
Colombian Gringo's picture

Of course there will be conflict since the chinese do not want any more bankster dicks up their collective asses.  Opium wars were all about royal families destroying the chinese for money. This is who these criminals really are.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:24 | Link to Comment CClarity
CClarity's picture

China has a major demographic problem of inadequate numbers of people aged 20-50 to support the young and old in productive labor.  They need to import labor, as strange as that sounds to most.  War is one way, or guest labor invites to other South Asian countries . . . but they don't have adequate housing for that, despite all those tall empty buildings.  When things are out of whack it often leads to conquest and conflict.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:39 | Link to Comment idea_hamster
idea_hamster's picture

One interesting take-away from the relative GDP graph is the crushing destruction of GDP in India beginning with the Raj and the UK rule, but little concommitant rise in UK GDP -- I think this, without more, could make a prima facie case for the deadweight loss associated with mercantilistic colonialism.

China sees a similar trend, with little effect on the European powers that controlled China during that period.

Sadly, you can also see how the bureaucratic culture that modern India has adopted from the 18th-century UK has continued to stultify India's economy relative to the balance of the world.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:41 | Link to Comment Short Memories
Short Memories's picture

Living in JP now, I don't really want to get caught in the middle. I hope they just manage to let of steam with some proxy war somewhere (as bad as that sounds)

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:43 | Link to Comment BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

Don't we all hope that future disasters happen to somebody else.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:59 | Link to Comment DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

There is a reasonable hope that the conflict will be more about electrons and silicon chips and less about fast moving lead and radiation.

Fingers crossed

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:15 | Link to Comment caconhma
caconhma's picture

Let the Zionist Banking Mafia and Chinese comunists fight an kill each other. So, the rest of world will be a better place to live.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:21 | Link to Comment DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Can they focus their conflict directly at Kissinger? 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:19 | Link to Comment Atlas Shrugged
Atlas Shrugged's picture

Hmmm... They went to China in 1971... What else did Nixon do in 1971 again?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:38 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

he helped set in motion a globalised banking system, including debasing the relative wealth of amrka /west, and the beginning of a more "equalised" East?

those who are playing the "great game" of one world banking/trading system do not labour under the notions of separate nationstates, but merely work amongst themselves as "players" - with populations fed the flag-waving meme to guarantee massive citizen distraction. . .

and of course, occasional wars to thin the herd, make some conquest profits, feed the corporations who make the war machines that kill. . . these are inevitable, and are baked in.

who's taking delivery of all that London gold, every week?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 23:05 | Link to Comment JeffB
JeffB's picture

From the above chart, it looks like our economy has stagnated ever since, relative to the rest of the world.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:57 | Link to Comment smb12321
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I've always viewed colonialism not as modern totalitarian empires (Germany, USSR, China) but as cultural cheerleading deeply embued with a religious and moral zeal.  The speeches and literature of the time were rife with arguments for introducing religion, stopping slavery and barbarism and bringing "civilization".  Colonialism brought modernity (schools, political organization, representation, infrastructure) even if much of it was forgotten as in the case of the Congo whose 30,000 miles of paved road is now less than 1,000 for an area larger than Texas.

India is forecast to become the world's greatest economic power, surpassing the Chinese with their disastrous 1 child policy condemning them to a Euro-Japanese clusterf**k of few workers to support a rapidly growing (and aging) population.   The investment/travel book "World Rightside Up" explains that European dominance was a relatively new (and now vanished) phenomenon.  Power has always been in the East y and now it flows back.

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:05 | Link to Comment NorthPole
NorthPole's picture

It's clear you've never been to India. I've been there numerous times over the last few years and I can't imagine them becoming the 'worlds greatest economic power' anytime soon. As much as I like their food and I admire their talent in sciences, the place is a terrible, terrible mess in pretty much every single way imaginable.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 15:13 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

both China and India are known for their "preference" for male babies, and their efforts to achieve those goals, resulting in a skewed male to female ratio in their populations. . .

looks like they will have to "import" women for breeding, or export men - which, of course, results in the dilution of the race meme, as they continue down the one-world path. . .

these stories, they have a very long time-line, colonising, interbreeding, yes?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:02 | Link to Comment Stimulati
Stimulati's picture

I haven't dug into it but I bet Indian GDP remained relatively static while the West (US) grew rapidly.  The pie got bigger but India's slice stayed the same.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:51 | Link to Comment potlatch
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I am suspecting it more has to do with India forfeiting the efficencies of a brutal police state.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 15:08 | Link to Comment CTG_Sweden
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CClarity:

 

“China has a major demographic problem of inadequate numbers of people aged 20-50 to support the young and old in productive labor. They need to import labor, as strange as that sounds to most. War is one way, or guest labor invites to other South Asian countries . . . but they don't have adequate housing for that, despite all those tall empty buildings. When things are out of whack it often leads to conquest and conflict.”

 

 

 

I doubt that labour shortage will be a problem for China in the future. The possibilities to replace humans with robots and computers increase continuously. So far, robots have not become inexpensive enough to replace humans almost completely in automobile manufacturing, for instance. But over the past 30-40 years it is quite obvious that robots have replaced manpower to a quite substantial extent in the auto industry. As economies of scale for robot production improves and robots get less expensive, and also get get better, manpower will continue to be replaced by robots.

 

The only labour intensive sector where it seems really hard to replace labour with current technologies seems to be health care. It is hard to replace nurses with robots and computers.

 

An ageing population is no problem, provided that senior citizens can get other incomes than government pensions based on tax revenues from working people. If senior citizens can be supported by dividends rather than government pensions an increasing share of senior citizens is no real problem.

 

Furthermore, it will not be easier to support senior citizens if there are not enough jobs for young people. The US will probably have better demographics in theory compared to China in 20 years. But will there be sufficient demand for all these young people in the future? I doubt that, even if unskilled labour nowadays is so cheap in the US that people hire people for grass cutting rather than buy a lawn mower (furthermore, there are now automatic lawn mowers which don´t have to be operated or driven by humans). Considering the continuously increasing possibilities to replace manpower with machines I think that the US in the future will have an excessive supply of labour like today combined with an increasing number of senior citizens that must by supported by the same or a shrinking number of working people.

 

The solution to this problem seems to be increased savings for senior citizens and increased incomes from dividends. To me, it seems like a better idea if governments in economic downturns give all citizens a certain amount of money that can be invested in stock rather than building roads to nowhere like they have done in Japan for 20 years by now. Especially if investments in stock are restricted so that people can only buy new issues of shares or stock in new companies I think this is a better idea than investing in infrastructure which the society doesn´t really need.

 

-----------------------------

 

 

As regards the so-called inevitable US-China conflict I think that there will be no big conflict between these two countries since China in the end probably will wind up with the same or a similar power élite as North America and Europe. Since Hong Kong already is a part of China and since many foreign companies have lots of in investments in China I think that it should be possible to create a political base in China that gradually can take control over China as well. Perhaps the potential core of the power élite in Hong Kong (I don´t know to which extent other parts of China also can contribute with the right people to this core) is a bit small. Another problem is perhaps the composition of China in terms of religion. That may in turn be incentive to look for solutions not based on democracy as in the West but rather some kind of continuation of the current Chinese political model. But perhaps democracy will follow if they can change the composition of the electorate and conditions as regards religion in China.

 

But if it will seem to hard to take control over China from inside it is always possible to cut imports from China drastically and say that “we need to bring home our jobs, China does not practise fair trade, they are protectionists”. I know that the late Sir James Goldsmith as early as in the mid-1990s argued that Europe should raise import duties and stop importing things from East Asia in order to solve the unemployment problem in Europe. Perhaps there will be a renaissance for such ideas in the future?

 

Perhaps Plan A is to take control of China and Plan B, if Plan A doesn´t work, is the Jimmy Goldsmith solution?

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:30 | Link to Comment kralizec
kralizec's picture

No room up there anyway with all the Chi-Com dicks fighting to get in.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:18 | Link to Comment Mr. Fix
Mr. Fix's picture

I think Kissinger started this mess.

 

Should have left them alone.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:37 | Link to Comment Raynja
Raynja's picture

Where are bath salts manufactured?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:57 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

at a trailer park nearest you!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:37 | Link to Comment kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

He started a lot of messes.  He is a very evil man.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:24 | Link to Comment DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Harry Whittington told me accidents happen

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:47 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

Kissinger within your lifetime, memory, has indeed been a major participant - but "this mess" is their story, and it reaches back centuries before any of us were born.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:28 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

there are constant conflicts via trade and political jockeying. just because overt violence isn't used does not mean china isn't handing out serious daily ass whoopings to the west.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:51 | Link to Comment mickeyman
mickeyman's picture

Is that her real name?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:21 | Link to Comment hangemhigh
hangemhigh's picture

@MTP:

I had the opportunity to interview Henry Kissinger...

please pass the cross dressing........MHFT does MDB............

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:16 | Link to Comment Mr. Fix
Mr. Fix's picture

THIS MEANS WAR!!!!!!!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:16 | Link to Comment Badabing
Badabing's picture

dam the torpedoes

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:16 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Looking behind you to see where you are going will only get you in a nasty accident.  When paper dies, it dies the world over this time.  Who has the denser population centers again?  This is where the real "losers" will be found, dead.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:21 | Link to Comment GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

When they view most of their populace as an internal enemy 24/7, it's easier to stay prepared for the task at hand.

Who has the higher density of auto and semi-auto weapons?

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:34 | Link to Comment prodigious_idea
prodigious_idea's picture

"In the last stage, known as the Ponzi stage, economic actors borrow in the hope that conditions will improve. This borrowing is designed to avoid insolvency during what is perceived or hoped to be a short to medium term setback in economic conditions."

Could be almost any G20 nation these days.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:52 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

it's good to try on the different perspectives. . . the Ponzi stage borrowers may be acting within the information that collapse and absorption of their nationstate is part of the ongoing plan, for which they will be rewarded for their participation (collusion). . .

even history as it is allowed to be written/told will point out the duplicitous embedded "rulers"

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:46 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Who is better trained and prepared at using such weapons.  might not matter in a nuclear ending.  What is your fucking point?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:11 | Link to Comment GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

That being in the cross-fire in a dense population center in the states may be worse than a similar fate in Beijing.

I'm sure there are legion chickenhawks in the US who have pumped their ego enough to believe they're good with guns...they'll be the ones lumbering around with .50 cals in bad camo being taken out at 200m with a handful of stingers by someone who actually knows what they're doing.

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:20 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Sooo, avoid dense populations.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:56 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

How many vets in those Chinese Neighborhoods?  These are the folks who know how to operate the tools you mention.

The cross-fire is another issue altogether, but a necessary sacrafice.  Some things never change, hedge accordingly, that is all you can really do anyway.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 15:35 | Link to Comment GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

That's about 1 in 10 civvies, even if you assume the distro is homogenous which it ain't. It's the other 40% of society that is well-armed, but poorly trained (another not-so-even distribution...skewed towards pop centers).

I'm sure there are many veterans in Beijing; compulsory military service has that effect.

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:31 | Link to Comment Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

LawsofPhysics

Farmer, or engineer?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:46 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Both.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:17 | Link to Comment GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

First expansion, then military build-up to hold what was expanded into; the way of Empires.

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:19 | Link to Comment obelisks
obelisks's picture

Nostradamus predicted that the world would end when the eagle and the bear together fight the Dragon

but right now the dragon has joined the bear over Syria so i hope this means a few m ore years yet !

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:21 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

did he say anything about turkeys?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:22 | Link to Comment GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Eagles, and Dragons, and Bears Oh My!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:25 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

see right there?

all conclusions, as always, lead to "follow the yellow brick road"...

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:26 | Link to Comment GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Just make sure you're going the right way, or you end up in that spiral in munchkinland. :)

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:56 | Link to Comment 12ToothAssassin
12ToothAssassin's picture

Follow the yellow brick road to the Monarch and find a very deep rabbit hole.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:00 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

L. Frank Baum:  some folks call him snarky political humorist, I say visionary soothsayer.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:25 | Link to Comment Revert_Back_to_...
Revert_Back_to_1792_Act's picture

Road to Roota

www.bostonfed.org/education/pubs/roota.pdf

Wishes and Rainbows!

Um..it's not working.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXkzxHVndCE

 

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:48 | Link to Comment Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

I could easily see the Russians backstabbing China and showing them selves as secret US/Zionist allies, maybe not with Putin but if the Zionists staged a successful coup against him Russia could be in their hands overnight

besides I do see a lot of cooperation between Russia and the West(Zionists) even now

- they refuse to expose the Holohoax (maybe for their internal reasons but still)

- they refuse to expose the UFO/Alien information they have (same maybe for internal reasons) even though the US is the biggest beneficiary of UFO secrecy

- they seem to do very little to expose/undermine the Zionists hegemony over the world, even though they surely have access to many top secret information that could throw a serious monkey wrench into the system

- the always seem to be too nice when opposing foreign military interventions of the West

Either the Russians have a secret hidden agenda or they are just paper tigers either too impotent or participating in the Zionist schemes, after all Russia was ruled by Bolshevik(Zionists) very long and influence like that does not dissapear overnight

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:48 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Funny, I see it the other way around.  The U.S. elites and owners would love for Americans to work for Chinese wages.  This has been the plan all along.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:02 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Or pack 9000 Beds into a shipping container for work at a moment's notice on tea and one biscuit.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:09 | Link to Comment smb12321
smb12321's picture

 Isn't it amazing that despite the absolute power and control of the 1%, posters know all the details of their nefarious dark plans?  But fortunately they spread this info through You Tube (with appropriate scary background music) that source of deep historical research.  How do they get this inside information so easily?  is there a 1% mole releasing minutes  of the latest Davos discussions?    ("...and contact Niko about our scheme toi reduced US wages... ")  Inquiring minds want to know!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:17 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Commen sense really.  Corporations care about one thing and one thing only, profits.  Wake the fuck up, corporations now control all governments, hence, the last thing you should expect to see go up are wages.  Go take a look at tax receipts, the data is clear as day.  The average American wage has been declining for years.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:40 | Link to Comment strangeglove
strangeglove's picture

This is why we SNAP!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:00 | Link to Comment my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

Try Carol Quigley, "Tragedy and Hope" for starters.

Better get readin'....it's a long one!

Of course, you are an acrimoneous sort, so I don't expect you to take anyone's advice.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:59 | Link to Comment Sanksion
Sanksion's picture

UFO technology ? Come on...

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:10 | Link to Comment my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

"I could easily see the Russians backstabbing China and showing them selves as secret US/Zionist allies, maybe not with Putin but if the Zionists staged a successful coup against him Russia could be in their hands overnight"

I think that is EXACTLY the case!  I know that sounds crazy, but go find this short paper in pdf form on the internet:

 

The Life of an American Jew  

in Racist Marxist Israel 

by Jack Bernstein; 1985

 

http://solargeneral.com/library/the-life-of-an-american-jew-in-racist-ma...

 

(Note:  Every pdf file I have found has the last line of many pages cut off, but it is still understandable nonetheless.)

 

He was a Jew who became thoroughly disgusted with the State of Israel, and he decided to write an expose on what he knew.  He discusses the Bolshevik-based alliance which he called the NY-Moscow-Tel Aviv Triangle.  It is a fascinating concept!  He was subsequently assassinated by the Mossad.

 

Russia to this day contains a strong Jewish-Bolshevik element, and they work in cooperation with the central bankers and Israel.  Russia is simply posturing to seem anti-Israel.  Read his paper to understand how this triangle works and its goals.

 


Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:12 | Link to Comment smb12321
smb12321's picture

Thanks for this informative, TIMELY article that seems so...realistic. (LOL)  Jesus, what is wrong with folks that their entire lives are guided by convoluted, absurd and crazy conspiracies?  

Russia was an earlier supporter of Israel due to the Socialist bent of Zionism.  She made the strategic decision to throw her wait to the Arabs when Israel became more overtly pro-Western.  It's no mystery.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:56 | Link to Comment my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

You have every right to hold SIMPLISTIC views....and I won't insult you for it, unlike your uncivilized manner of discourse.  I did not write the piece.  A Jew, who lived in Israel, did.  

I don't take "conspiracy" as an insult, as history is replete with them.

Have a nice day!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 15:51 | Link to Comment Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture

 

puppy

 

I think this is a complete version, but it's not a .pdf file

 

http://iamthewitness.com/The.Life.of.an.American.Jew.in.Israel.htm

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:17 | Link to Comment Anglo Canuck
Anglo Canuck's picture

You lost me at "Holohoax". The Israeli government may be a miserable bunch of bastards, but that doesnt change the reality of the holocaust.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:40 | Link to Comment prodigious_idea
prodigious_idea's picture

I thought I was alone in my reaction until you posted.  Was looking around for the door.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:45 | Link to Comment Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

Don't let it hit you in the ass.. This is the fight club.. Propaganda and long term conditioning is fair game here.. thank god

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:10 | Link to Comment prodigious_idea
prodigious_idea's picture

You obviously haven't met many survivors from that period.  But maybe you Holo-phobics could explain the advantage of a hoax.  And then follow up with the advantage of exposing it.  Something meaningful, like food on the table?  Enjoy the last word.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:10 | Link to Comment Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

It's called sympathy. The eternal victims.. Now they are given a free pass to steal land that belongs to Palestinians and murder civilians.. It's a big mind fuck religion.. Advantage.. Fuck you.. It's so obvious.. A child could figure it out..

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:14 | Link to Comment Sanksion
Sanksion's picture

I would argue that TPTB know you need to bring freedom and democracy to bomb and steal arabs. No one will ask you how many fellow pals died in WW2 because it is irrelevant.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:18 | Link to Comment Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

I was born in Poland my family lived through WW2 and experienced it 1st hand, I can tell you that nobody that is NOBODY had any 1st 2nd or 3rd hand account of Gas Chambers or anything else that was supposedly to be the holocaust. None of my Grand-Grandparents knew anybody who had seen heard or smelled it, get it?

The only stories I have heard are of the garden-variety war stories and war atrocities but nothing even remotely resembling the holocaust, and get this all stories I have heard from my grand-grand parents praised the Germans for their compassionate behavior(considering it was war) and many many bad stories about what the Russians and Allies did immediately after it

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:56 | Link to Comment potlatch
potlatch's picture

don't feed the trolls dude.  it is a particularly unpleasant aspect of this site, all the jew baiting nonsense. 

 

Economic BS brings out lots of anger.  Just let them rant about the RoT HCH ilds (you have to write it funny or they detect it) and find a better discussion to post in ;)  You can't argue with them.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:20 | Link to Comment smb12321
smb12321's picture

The Holohoax comment is quivering just beneath the surface of many posters.  You see it in the comments - "Jew boy", "bunch of Jews". etc.  I know, I know, I also thought that stuff disappeared decades ago but  hatred for religious reasons is obviously not confined to Islam.   Still, thankfully, It's only a small (but very vocal) minority who hold such views.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:44 | Link to Comment Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

Reality?  Who's reality?  6 million?  Not even close. Probably 1/10th that at the most and majority of them died from disease and starvation as did millions of Europeans during those years.  People that call out these facts do not deny, they dispute the numbers, conditions and reasons..

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:21 | Link to Comment RallyRoundTheFamily
RallyRoundTheFamily's picture

The truth does not need laws to protect it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:47 | Link to Comment Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

Read this "Did 6 Million realy die"(from google results i have no affiliation with the site), it's very short and come back to tell me how you think about after you read it

@Max Hunter yes ofc but please don't turn this tread into a holocaust debate, I won't either

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:08 | Link to Comment Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

Why do you care where this thread goes?  Why is it, after it is implied that those who don't "believe" like everyone else on this subject are haters and demonized, the subject must be ended?  I will look at the link.. I've read much on the subject. I will not allow the deaths of European Jews be exagerated and more importantly, viewed as somehow more important than the deaths of others.  This Holocaust religion needs to be seen for what it really is; a pack of lies being used to give Jews a free pass to kill Arabs and exhonoration for all of their historical crimes (parasitic in nature) against humanity..

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:07 | Link to Comment Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Its not that people are against usury (that bankers, regardless of 'religion' or 'ethnicity' are despised), their problem is they are anti-semitic!  Yeah!  Thats it!

A lot of people died before, during, and after WWII, and its pretty sick when some of those deaths are supposed to be more significant than others.  And if you don't agree, you are a racist, apparently!

Any one remember the story about Granddaddy Prescott Bush financing Hitler?  Sad truth is there are people who are willing to play both sides, and even sacrifice their fellow human beings if there is something to be gained by it.  These people are rightly called psychopaths, and there is no cure for psychopathy.

All we can do is expose them.  Right now there are psychopaths at the top of many corporations and governments, and guess what, psychos can spot other psychos a mile away, and work with each other.

A lot of the time we rationalize the actions of these psychos by calling them greedy.  Well, they are.  But more accurately they are power hungry.  More money just means more power to them.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:34 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

That 6 Million figure is an insult to the memory of the TEN MILLION who did actually die in Nazi concentration camps and gas chambers.  The Holocaust was NOT just about the Jews!  Millions of Slavs (especially Poles), Gypsies, and other ethnicities were targeted for extermination by the Nazi death machine as well.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:54 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

akak, ol buddy, ol pal, pls gmail me at my name.  Something going you might like...  :)

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:39 | Link to Comment shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Zionists AND Aliens...

Can't get scarier than that.

"Oy, This planet is so humid, I'm spritzing like a goy."

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:37 | Link to Comment caconhma
caconhma's picture

Azannoth,

This are the answers:

  • the Russians have a secret hidden agenda AND they are  paper tigers but with many nukes but without a regular army
  • Putin and the Russian oligarchy are gangsters and thieves  who keep their money and their loot in the Zionist owned & controlled European banks. Consequently, they are under very heavy Zionist influence
  • Putin and the Russian oligarchy are hated by Russian people and, seeing what Zionists have done to Saddam, Qaddafi, Mubarak, have no places to run except stay and survive in Russia
  • China, as of now, has nukes and an army at least 10 times as large as Russia has. Chinese military is much better equipped and better trained. Consequently, Russia is terrified of a Chinese invasion occupying the Russia East from The Pacific Ocean up to the Volga River

 

The bottom line: Zionist were very successful in initiating and benefiting from both the WWI and WWII. The WWIII will be their last!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:56 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

I don't know whether or not Chinese military is much better equipped and better trained. 

During 2008 Sichuan Earthquake, PLA mobilized 400 or so remaining Blackhawks purchased from the US in 80s to transport those injuried. The images are shocking because those chopper pilots are all in their late 40s and early 50s . So Chinese couldn't reverse engineer the flight training themselves.  Unfortuantely, one Backhawk crashed into mountains 150 miles or so outside of Chengdu, a large city with nearly 10 million population. The irony is PLA couldn't figure out the location of the crash site,  and subsequently mobilized 30,000 civilians for the search. A few weeks later they eventaully found the crash site and it was evident the crew died of dehydration and injuries. 

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:16 | Link to Comment Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture

 

Azannoth said:

after all Russia was ruled by Bolshevik(Zionists) very long and influence like that does not dissapear overnight

 

Here's an interesting quote...anybody here ever hear of a guy named Alexander Solzhenitsyn?

 

Plain and simple: Communism was thought up by Karl Marx, born Jewish, and it was implemented in Russia by Jews. They may not have been 100% of the Gulag or Cheka or in the military but they were the orchestrators of the Revolution. The Bolshevisks murdered priests, bishops (especially the village clergy) and exterminated the nobility and the Tsar and his family, according to Solzhenitsyn, and from 1918 to 1920, the secret police (Cheka) was controlled by Bolshevistic Jews.

 

that quote is from a review of his book(200 Years Together) and two other books...here:

 

Before, During and After the Russian Revolution

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:50 | Link to Comment Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Nostradamus probably used TA to come up with that conclusion.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:01 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

or used bath salts?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:18 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

As uncreative as TPTB are, I half expect a new 'opium war'...

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:52 | Link to Comment Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

Wasn't Vietnam and Afganistan exactly that ?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:30 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

I must say that I have little confidence in the intelligence and/or erudition of the author of this article after noticing, in the very top entry on his graph of world economic powers ---- "Non-Asian Ancient Civilizations" --- that he lists Greece, Egypt, Turkey and Persia (Iran) among them.  This person apparently has never looked at a globe or a world map even ONCE in his life, because the last two of those four lie squarely in the continent of Asia. 

Idiot!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:58 | Link to Comment potlatch
potlatch's picture

geography: know it, learn it, use it.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:06 | Link to Comment bahaar
bahaar's picture

We already have one.  It's called 'cheap goods from China".  And they didn't even have to use gun-boats to get us addicted and become impoverished.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:45 | Link to Comment Umh
Umh's picture

A toy in every "happy meal".

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:19 | Link to Comment TriggerFinger
TriggerFinger's picture

impactful is not a word

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:24 | Link to Comment GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

True.

"There are few missions which have had the same level of impact as this one:"

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:37 | Link to Comment Bwahaha WAGFDSMB
Bwahaha WAGFDSMB's picture

It is now!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:20 | Link to Comment mrktwtch2
mrktwtch2's picture

the usa is the only country that can be totally self sustainable..if 300 million americans vanish tomorrow the world economy collapses..if 6.7 billion people diaapeared tomorrow the usa would survive it wouldnt be easy but we have our own oil,food and still have the manufacturing capablities and we are a consumer driven economy not an export one..china will implode in the less than 2  years (anyone here old enough to remember the japan miravle of the 80,s)..plus they are a totalitarian society..wasnt russia growing at 5% before they collapsed in 1990??

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:30 | Link to Comment Mr. Fix
Mr. Fix's picture

USA polititions are not sustainable.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:02 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

right you are sir.   They just don't realize yet that the rednecks are waking up to this fact, too.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:30 | Link to Comment infotechsailor
infotechsailor's picture

"china will implode in the less than 2  years (anyone here old enough to remember the japan miravle of the 80,s"

 

only if they try to bailout failed banking and investment institutions. If their senior military/government officials let capital markets fail (which is possible since many of their banks are foreign owned), China's population would merely have to retool to produce products that Chinese people enjoy, instead of products that White people from America and Europe enjoy. What would China do with all their crap if America wasn't there to borrow their money and then buy it from them? Really?!?!?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:00 | Link to Comment Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Americans consume crap produced by China. Go to your local Walmart and take a gander at all the self-sustainable future producers waddling around.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:27 | Link to Comment Vince Clortho
Vince Clortho's picture

The US may be better off than some other countries, but 300 million people would NOT survive if the US were to suddenly go it alone.

Think large initial die-off with the survivors living  a lifestyle similar in many ways to the early 1900's.

There simply is not enough energy or raw materials left to continue anything close to the current standard of living.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:34 | Link to Comment smb12321
smb12321's picture

I'm not exactly sure what we "need" from the rest of the world except perhaps luxury items or cheap Chinese things.   My one concern would be rare metals (we dropped out of the market) and energy (natural gas gives us a tremendous advantage).  We lead the world (by far) in R & D/  We have enough food (we are the world's biggest exporter), water, agriculture land, oceans but more important, two centuries of a national life without resorting to tribalism, regionalism, religious divisions or ethnic division.  Most Americans are Americans first and then Italian, Southern, Latino, etc. 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:04 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

We are not self sustainable.

And our 300 mil is a pittance against China's Billion and a one baby only policy.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:29 | Link to Comment smb12321
smb12321's picture

Many countries can sustain themselves (they did for centuries without trade).  But it is true that the US is unique - a long history of rule of law, incredible agricultural land and climate, access to natural resources and energy, water - you name it. 

And no, Russia was not growing before collapsing.  They didn't produce anything except staples (and these in short supply).  Just the reverse, their civil society was collapsing (had collapsed?) as it became a nation of broken institutions, no marriage and no kids.  Thus the population collapse occuring now.  This "rival" was like a fourth work country (1994)  thought the people were nice and literate.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:21 | Link to Comment Silver Shield
Silver Shield's picture

I just did a few videos on this...

Forget Greece, Watch China            The Rise of the Anti Hegemon          China Buying London Metal Exchange!
Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:22 | Link to Comment lordbyroniv
lordbyroniv's picture

Kissenger set us up.  

 

China has all our jobs.

 

We Americans have been betrayed.

 

Now Kissenger and NWO goons will orchestrate the inevitable war they intended from the beginning.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:07 | Link to Comment Sofa King Confused
Sofa King Confused's picture

Exactly....My only question is, if you got that close to Kissenger why didn't you kick him in the nuts?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:09 | Link to Comment Overfed
Overfed's picture

Or pop a cap in his ass?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:23 | Link to Comment Vince Clortho
Vince Clortho's picture

It was a sad day for the entire planet when that pompous, lard-assed hermaphrodite oozed out of his mother's womb.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:30 | Link to Comment infotechsailor
infotechsailor's picture

i dont see how he set us up... Kissinger helped China and Deng Xiaopeng convert an entire communist state into a capitalist global superpower. Considering they could have remained a backwards, communist ally of the Soviets, how was it a bad thing to develop productive industry in China?

Kissinger does some scary things, organizing secretive trade deals, sure. But the over-regulation and the push for socialism here is to blame for our loss of jobs, not the success of China's free-market capitalism.

USSA gives capitalism a bad name (by calling zombie-bank ruled corporatocracy a capitalist country)

PRC gives communism a good name (by calling a free-market capitalist republic a communist country)

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:45 | Link to Comment GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

So the US can expect many more ICBC branches to mushroom locally in the next decade or so? You don't say.

http://forex.fo/?TEXT-Fitch:%20ICBC%20deal%20may%20signal%20more%20Chine...

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:25 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Politics of FEAR...............is there an double levered ETF for the MIC?

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:30 | Link to Comment Zola
Zola's picture

The need for china was because they knew the dollar link to gold was going to break and wo a source of cheap labor to dampen the salaries in US, the wage/price spiral would have bankrupted their ponzi. They needed slave like labor to dampen the inflation they unleashed

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:45 | Link to Comment MajorWoody
MajorWoody's picture

Somebody gets it! Nice.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:04 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

the seminal analysis of Friedmanism and floating rates, after BW revoke,  hit the inflation spiral and it was Volcker medicine and subsequent Thatcher-Reagan entente that broke the back of the unions, and allowed the asset risk model to flower, as wages were capped and then bootstrapped out to Asia. Game over, first world welfare states! 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:05 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

And a few Panda bullion to sop up the last few remaining weak hands.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:35 | Link to Comment narnia
narnia's picture

Maybe our "inevitable" conflict with China has something to do with physically imposing our will (directly or by proxy) in Central Asia, the South China Sea, Sudan/Uganda & anywhere else China explores or trades for energy. Maybe it has something to do with the outright shenanigans we play in global currency markets.

Maybe it has nothing to do with some historical horseshit about how stupid failed emerging empires like the US acted in the past & more about how failing empires like the US will act on the way down. Maybe the Chinese & Indians have woken up to the outright desperation & charade in these ridiculous global enterprises like the UN & its illegitimate offspring.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:44 | Link to Comment Mercury
Mercury's picture

This rainbow GDP chart is a little crazy and it doesn’t show that world GDP has grown dramatically.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:58 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

it works perfectly in showing who is producing most of the pie

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:26 | Link to Comment Mercury
Mercury's picture

I suppose.

Empirical proof that the USA has been exceptional anyway…

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:34 | Link to Comment azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

TPTB cannot admit that global labor arbitrage is at the root of the current problems in the western world. This would be an admission of total failure in their vision. It has benefitted the few at the expense of the many. They trumpet that the rural chinese enslaved in production are at least better off than they were in their farms. The same way the slaveholders argued that the slaves were better off than they were in africa.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:47 | Link to Comment Bwahaha WAGFDSMB
Bwahaha WAGFDSMB's picture

This would be an admission of total failure in their vision. It has benefitted the few at the expense of the many.

Doesn't sound like a failure to me.  Sounds like you misunderstood the objective.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:58 | Link to Comment RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

All part and parcel of the Rockerfeller/Rothschild globalization scheme.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 15:29 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

indeed - all one need do is stop identifying with a particular land mass, and the inhabitants, re-focus the mind-lens in a wide-angle view, like "they" do - and the whole game becomes more apparent.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:44 | Link to Comment Pinktip
Pinktip's picture

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/shoulei/product-detailWqSmiVrAqQUl/China-Clarified-Apple-Juice-Concentrate.html

I bought (10) used empty 55g drums yesterday from a guy in Bennington VT.

Apple Juice concentrate from China was on the label.

We have Washington state and NY, largest producers of apples in the world and we're buying this crap.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:55 | Link to Comment my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

The kiddies have to get their doses of lead and mercury SOMEHOW....geez!!!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:16 | Link to Comment news printer
news printer's picture

because there are lemmings always willing to buy; ofcourse after proper advertisment ;)

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 13:27 | Link to Comment emersonreturn
emersonreturn's picture

pinktip...buy local.  stop buying shit.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:38 | Link to Comment sangell
sangell's picture

When Germany grew to Great Power status they looked around the world and found the British and French had got there before them. They only got scraps for their empire so for them to get a 'place in the sun' they had to defeat these powers. They tried in 1870, 1914 and 1939.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 14:16 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Not accurate. The British financial interests were terrified of Germany opening up a trade route to the far east via their allies, the Turks. This fact, combined with Germany's burgeoning industrial power, made them a real threat to the City of London interests that were consolidating their power over the globe in the early 20th century. They maneuvered the Germans into WW1 and eliminated the threat.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:39 | Link to Comment ITrustMyGut
ITrustMyGut's picture

says it all..

"Chinese tendencies to sometimes view cooperation with the US as being self-defeating."


Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:46 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

Ah, at last something to get your forward looking geopolitical front teeth into, like juicy red meat from a Argentinian or Brazilian cow. Its ride VAcquero times to the eastern sunrise. Globalisation means we fight on all Oligarchy continents. 

 

Yes this is the BIG subject, as US debt crisis deepens. As PAx Americana now has a rival it created to make the NWO/Reaganomics mantra come to fruition. What started out as Kissinger "detente" and Metternichian balance of power strategy, with immediate side benefits of allowing Imperial USA to move its mangled, dirty butt out of <Vietnam, became the subsequent Eldorado of Oligarchy land with the outsourcing and mega-margin gold rush of the 90-00 decades, under Clinton-GWB. As for non cooperation with non-democratic eastern cultured countries, it is now a joke that would make slit eyes open wide, so Kissinger's hoy-ploy is nothing more than moral posturing, which the world of facts and acts have destroyed beyond reasonable doubt. The west and east are now at par on the moral and democracy front. Alas...

Remember the battle of Carrhae, when head Roman Oligarch of first Triumvirate fame, richest man of Senate, M Licinius Crassus, took on the Parthians, in 53 BC. We may be heading there. If this hottens up to confrontation, the US will now be fighting against the turn of the tide; the head winds now unfurl from East to West, as does Time's pendulum now abide by the land of the rising sun. Surena's cavalry, like the Mongols later on, outmanoeuvered the mighty infantry legions of Rome. Massive military might bit the dust. Drones or no drones. These Chinese are no clones, nor are they clowns. Be warned, Coca Cola and all. 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:52 | Link to Comment MajorWoody
MajorWoody's picture

By George! you're right!

We (the USA) should take them out now before they get too big.

What's the phrase Tiger, Tiger, Tiger?

Operation Bite the hand that Feeds

Operation No T Bill,  No Cashy

Operation Wal-Mart Re-dux

Operation You call that an aircraft carrier?

Operation Toaster oven

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:53 | Link to Comment my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

That is freakin' HILARIOUS!!!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:04 | Link to Comment RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

Our Navy is headed their direction....

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:05 | Link to Comment Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

I think they've anticipated that.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:53 | Link to Comment my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

I might point out that "Reaganomics" were simply NWOnomics, as were Clintonomics, Bushonomics, Obamonomics.....

And the "-onomics" go on ad infinitum!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:10 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

read my comment on Friedmanism and its inception...below (or above). It was more than an economic tool, Reaganomics,  it was perceived by RR/MT as a civilization tool to take the West out from the Union controlled, labour inflated, welfare state model. It ended up in outsourcing private labour markets, blowing up public sector labour markets in entitlement Admin and MIC industries under RR. And that has never been put right. Ironic.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:17 | Link to Comment Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

I tried to hit the +100 button, but I couldn't find it.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:46 | Link to Comment my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

I don't disagree with you at all!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 15:36 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

great stuff falak - and if we factor in Reagan's "special relationship" with Maggie T. (interesting that they shared dementia in later years), and see the similar roles played out in the anglo-amrkn nationstates, it becomes ever more obvious. . .

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:49 | Link to Comment my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

Poor little Henry...he is sooo frustrated with the useless eaters'  "conventional theories of realism in international politics"....

Here is the correct interpretation of Kiss-Rockefeller-Butt-inger's remarks:  "You vill ALL have to get used to the reality of a communo-fascist-global government...bitchez!"

If anyone doesn't see the Hegelian nature of his remarks, Thesis (US)-Antithesis (China)= Synthesis (NWO), then one should look a little deeper!

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:15 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Yeah well, before we get to that one, the US and NATO are realising they may be in for a fight if they do anything further in Syria:

--

NATO tries to shift its blame for Syrian bloodshed on Russia

13.06.2012 | Source: Pravda.Ru
 
"Without going into too many details I can confirm that militarily it would be a much more complicated task," said Mr. Rasmussen in response to questions after a speech at the National Press Club in Canberra.  "All this boils down to the conclusion that a foreign military intervention is not the right path in Syria," he said. ...

 ...  "I have a very clear message to Russia. I think Russia can play an instrumental role in facilitating a political solution to the crisis in Syria," said Mr Rasmussen, who blasted the failure of the U.N. [i.e. Security Council ... i.e. RUSSIA and CHINA] to reach agreement at the Security Council level, informs MarketWatch.  Moscow believes an international conference on Syria should be held under the aegis of the UN and should bring together the five permanent members of the UN Security Council, Syria's neighbours -- Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey, and also Qatar and Saudi Arabia, as well as the League of Arab States and the European Union.

... more ...

http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/13-06-2012/121368-nato_russia_syria-0/
 
 --

Russia is sending the Russian Navy's Kaliningrad Amphibious warship to Syria with Black Beret Special Forces Marines with at least light cavalry support.  This ship and its special forces and weapons will without doubt be escorted by other warships that have anti-sub and anti-air capabilities and helicopters.  This force can of course be supported by Russian paratroops ashore.  Helicopters and armour be flown in fairly fast:

The Kaliningrad:

http://russianmilitaryphotos.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/project776ropuc...

http://russianmilitaryphotos.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/rgdsfgdsfgfdgfg...

http://russianmilitaryphotos.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/rdgdsfgdfsgdfg....

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/navy-preparing-to-defend-base...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUNHq3ZVpMY&feature=player_detailpage

Moscow clearly will make a major issue out of any US or Israeli attack on Syria. 

No details yet on how many will be deployed.  Kaliningrad can carry up to 313 troops and 98 crew with up to 25 light cavalry fighting-vehicles (machine gun, cannon, missile capable) simultaneously.  Plus MANPADs and direct and indirect fire support weapons.

US attacking Syria now would lead to a phase of dangerous escalations.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:56 | Link to Comment PivotalTrades
PivotalTrades's picture

Poppycock;

Japan, Germany..Post WWII,,Singapore,Austrialia,,any of the Nords,just off the top of my head.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 09:59 | Link to Comment bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

Chabuduo xiansheng.

 

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:00 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

The Chinese take the long view. They are prepared to wait three decades as American excess saps its strength and power. Then they make their move. The Chinese will not foolishly try to match US defence spending as the USSR tried to do in the 1980s.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:05 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

I agree, they are quick learners and were watching intently when the paper bear fell in on itself.  Demographics will kill them a lot sooner than 30 years though.  Their time is short, the population kettle is at hard boil and they know they cannot keep the lid on it for that long.  Plastic dog shit factories have kept everyone there busy for the past 10 years, but that will soon come to an end when the exports slow and stop due to world fiat collapse.

what then?  Their hand will be forced.  Better a semi-controlled descent than an all out crash landing.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:11 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

The "demographic problem" is overblown. Unlike the West they have not suffered a decline in birth rates due to a change in "culture." If the one child policy was terminated tomorrow, the population would start growing again.

The fiat collapse problem is going to hit everyone, not just them. Question is who will be swimming after the storm. That is a question no one can answer today.  

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:53 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Their population size and potential for growth is my whole point.  I'm understanding that China is a food importer?  Too many idle minds and idle hands is what's going to bite them in the ass.

people will do the meanest of menial jobs, bitch a little bit, then come back and do it again tomorrow.  Unless they're hungry.  Or bored. 

Worst case possible is bored and hungry.  That's why they instituted the one child policy in the first place, trying to slow down a population that was already too damn big for them to feed and to keep busy.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 10:58 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

If the Chinese start eating like the averager American, I think the human race will be on its way to a very fast extinction.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:18 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

nice!  They'll start eating all right.  Long Pork.  We'll be fortunate if we don't have to as well.

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