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Infographic - Are Guns And Ammo The New Gold?

Tyler Durden's picture


There are those who contend that when fiat dies, gold and precious metals will take its place. Then, a smaller subset out there, claims that it matters not who owns the gold or silver. All that matters is who is in charge of the lead. The following inforgraphic from may shed some much needed light on the topic, which as recent Thanksgiving record sales indicated, more and more people are starting to lock in on (and load).

Is Ammo The New Gold? Full Infographic


The threat of a U.S. double dip recession coupled with this summer's debt debacle in Washington - and the subsequent failure of the so-called "debt supercommittee" - has many ordinary Americans looking at gold as a safe store of value.  However, there's another commodity that historically has risen in price along with gold - and is potentially more useful in the event of a global crisis: Ammunition.


Some of the fear-based psychological reasons for gold's popularity in times of economic crisis appear to be similar to the reasons cited for purchasing guns and ammunition.  Michael Thompson, a small business owner from Virginia, had this to say about why he recently purchased 2,000 rounds of 223 ammunition to go with his growing collection of AR-15 assault rifles: "Since ARs are so well-known & widespread, quality ones don't really go down in value.  I don't trust what's going on in Washington and a reliable firearm that'll hold it's value plus ammo that I can always re-sell later if I don't use it up seems like as safe a place as any to put my money in these uncertain times."


One prominent factor which customers at cite as one of their primary reasons for stocking up on guns & ammo now is the uncertainty surrounding U.S. firearm regulations.  Many wonder if President Obama's official position on firearm regulation will change if he wins a second term. Others point to recent actions taken by President Obama's appointees in the EPA and the Department of Justice, citing the EPA's recently proposed ban on lead ammunition due to health concerns about the lead seeping into ground water supplies and the on-going debacle surrounding the Deparment of Justice's failed Fast & Furious sting operation.  Several states have also enacted anti-gun legislation recently, such as California expanding their controversial gun registry to now include purchasers of new rifles and shotguns.


Dustin Ramsey, a 28 year old self-proclaimed "realist" from Tennessee who says hunting and fishing are two of his favorite outdoor activities, counts the 5,000 rounds of 9mm ammunition he keeps on-hand as one of his investments along with gold coins: "I'm a hunter so I know I can use my guns & ammo to feed my family if something happens to our usual food supply and there's a run at our grocery store. Plus, it seems like somebody on Wall Street is always getting bailed out nowadays and my faith in the stock market has been gone for a long time. Look, I've seen what happens when times get tough and I figure I can always barter a popular caliber like 9mm for other supplies like I would with gold if push comes to shove. And if a crisis never materializes where I need my stash of ammo, I still love to shoot so those bullets won't go to waste. Given the uncertainty in our world, ammunition seems more practical to me than gold, whether there's an economic crisis or not."


Whatever their reason, Americans are purchasing firearms and ammunition in record numbers.  USA Today recently reported that the FBI experienced on Black Friday their single largest number of background check requests ever in a single day, smashing the previous record by 32%.  Background check requests are processed by the FBI according to federal law.  Gallop also reported that gun ownership is at an 18 year high, with 47% of Americans admitting to Gallop they own a gun.  These statistics coupled with customer feedback at indicate more Americans are taking advantage of their constitutional right to own a firearm - and are arming up in increasing large numbers.


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Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:24 | 2004917 Bwahaha WAGFDSMB
Bwahaha WAGFDSMB's picture

I think that was supposed to be, only armed men are free.

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 10:54 | 2006988 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

"Only free men are armed."

That is the sine qua non of freedom.  

"Firearms stand second in importance only to the Constitution itself." George Washington

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:04 | 2004520 4realmoney
4realmoney's picture

Take the Pledge! I will leave the GOP if the "conservative" media continues its bias against Ron Paul

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:34 | 2004671 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Did you see the hatchet job Fox and Friends did on him this morning?

Kilmead even called his foriegn policy ideas "crazy".

I'll show you crazy.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 18:09 | 2005479 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

RP is not on board the Good Ship Israel. He understands that nothing grows gov't like wars. So the Jew-stooge neo-conz hate him. He's going Third Party, and that's all good.  

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:26 | 2004927 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Pledged, signed, thanks.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:27 | 2004928 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:07 | 2004533 Vergeltung
Vergeltung's picture

ratso, "racism"? seriously?


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:15 | 2004589 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

fear, paranoia and racism are all out there, you're just confused on the producers 

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:37 | 2004690 ilovefreedom
ilovefreedom's picture

A gun is one of those things where it is better to have it not need it than not have it and need it.


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:14 | 2004883 Grand Vizier
Grand Vizier's picture

It's official, there is website is full of whack-a-doos!  More Doom Porn please!!!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:41 | 2005001 Dirtt
Dirtt's picture

ratso should wipe Soros' semen off his lips.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 16:51 | 2005259 ClassicalLib17
ClassicalLib17's picture

Well, ratso,  I had to add to your minus column even though you beat my personal record of -132 back on a george washington comment thread.  As a common sense, fiscally conservative, firearm owner/enthusiast, competitive pistol shooter, NRA, ISRA, USPSA member,  I hope you have an epiphany some day soon and realize what is going on here.  You're a member, do you read the articles and the intelligent comment threads?  If you are a troll, well....

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:06 | 2005305 ratso
ratso's picture

Wow, you must feel really intelligent, secure and knowledgeable.  Good Luck with that approach. I suspect it doesn't work.


Merry Christmas

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:02 | 2004506 Chuck Norris
Chuck Norris's picture

When they come to take our guns be sure you give them the bullets first

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:03 | 2004821 Barbarians_R_Us
Barbarians_R_Us's picture

Sorry but I am definitely going to be stealing that line!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:11 | 2004814 kill switch
Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:05 | 2004833 peekcrackers
peekcrackers's picture

This is deserving of a cheezy Dave hester  YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUP!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:34 | 2004968 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Brains are always better than guns. People WILLINGLY give Gold to smart people.

Sell your guns and learn to THINK.


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:58 | 2005064 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

In a truly bad situation, those smart unarmed people will hand over their gold to an idiot with a gun right quick.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 16:52 | 2005260 Fedaykinx
Fedaykinx's picture

this... is.. my... BOOOMSTICK!!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 21:27 | 2006034 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Shop smart ... shop S-Mart


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:01 | 2005289 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

U.S. to cut three quarters of National Guard troops on the border in “cost-cutting measure”????

Last updated at 8:13 PM on 21st December 2011

The number of National Guard troops on the border between the U.S. and Mexico will be cut by three quarters over the next year, the government has announced.

From next month the force of 1,200 border guards will be reduced to fewer than 300, a Defense Department official said yesterday.

Read more: h*t*t*p://


UPDATE on Chinese Troops In Mexico
Written by The Watchman
Thursday, 17 March 2011 21:04

The latest in information about Chinese troops in Mexico, along the border, and incursions into American airspace.

May 17th, 2011

Last Thursday (May 11th) was quite a stressful day. A report came in at around 6:30pm from our people near New Mexico on the Mexican border that two Chinese KIO Spotter helicopters had been seen entering US airspace. The two contacts were told by their superiors to keep it quiet. After our man on the ground got the message out he sent out a second message saying that his location had just been approached by Govt. Officials.

Approximately 25 min. after the second message all communication was lost with him and his unit. Our contact was unable to be reached for several hours. It was not until later that evening that I received an OK from my source letting me know that our contact was OK.

We expect to hear more details from a briefing that is classified regarding time, location, and individuals tonight on the conversation he had with our contact and the chain of events that took place on Thursday.

We have had independent verification of the Chinese choppers sighted you can read that here from the initial post and reply.

I know this is confusing because it has been “sanitized”. The point is…that there was a definite cover up of information regarding the identity of the choppers as Chinese and they were allowed to be flying in American airspace in New Mexico.


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:27 | 2005363 Tucson Tom
Tucson Tom's picture

Better be good with your first shot if you need to defend yourself and then be very mobile. this is Big Brother at it`s best.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 18:03 | 2005456 narapoiddyslexia
narapoiddyslexia's picture

ShotSpotter can be spoofed, dudes. Think about it. Make the equipment in your shop.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:40 | 2005772 IQ 101
IQ 101's picture

I think i could make the same argument for a pound of sliced bacon or bell peppers, @$6 for a pound of bacon yesterday, I would like to see a bacon chart? but then, perhaps health foods do carry a premium?

Bacon, the new gold.

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 01:22 | 2006495 7777flash
7777flash's picture

I heard that corned beef hash was also a good investment in "uncertain" times. I once read that the value of the above stated commidity once traded as high as a night with a super hot former soccer mom

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:24 | 2004327 ohhhhhbaaaaahhh...
ohhhhhbaaaaahhhhhhhhhmaaaaaahhhhh's picture

And silver.... 

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:30 | 2004347 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I still contend that platinum, silver, and gold will be a better play than a gun, but a gun (or more than one) will be a necessity.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:36 | 2004368 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I hear the Philharmonics make fairly good slingshot ammo.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:15 | 2004591 viahj
viahj's picture

a good wrist rocket (sling shot) with steel ammo, is good for hunting small game and limited self defense without the "bang".  should be in every prepper's tool box.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:30 | 2004947 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

Also good for taking out security and traffic cameras and plate glass windows at Wal-Mart and other such good deeds of public mayhem without fear of accidentally killing someone.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:39 | 2004379 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Pop me your address so we can test that theory shortly.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:43 | 2004396 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

My theory that owning a gun is a necessity?  Or that the price action in PM will be high enough so to trade for guns and other necessary goods?  Which?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:03 | 2004513 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

You edited.  Or I have ADD and didnt read your whole quote> both could be true.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:46 | 2005020 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

No edit

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:22 | 2004619 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I hear things at bars cuz "that's my habitué." one thing was one guy (lying) "I have a hundred acres" ( his Dad owned the land of course.) The other guy (BFF) responding (truth) "I have a gun."

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:26 | 2004644 HardwoodAg
HardwoodAg's picture

Every male can have a couple acres...after a properly executed knee to the nads!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:01 | 2004812 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

You'd "kill for another man's land"' then?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:34 | 2004966 Bwahaha WAGFDSMB
Bwahaha WAGFDSMB's picture

That's pretty much describes every war ever fought.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:17 | 2005721 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

You only own what you can defend, if you are trusting civilization, you are a sucker.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:46 | 2004410 economics1996
economics1996's picture

Concealed carry, regular handgun, shotgun, AR-15, 22 LR.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:52 | 2004453 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Wisconsin just issued me my Conceal Carry.

Wife asked it I was going to start carrying a gun.
"not unless you stop me."

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:54 | 2004476 narapoiddyslexia
narapoiddyslexia's picture

CC permit does little good in a shtf scenario. Then, no one will care if you have a license. Best to have a good rifle of at least 30 caliber, and sand bags for your house. nAnd lots of ammo.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:47 | 2004737 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Unless you lead some kind of really dangerous life, you're going to find that there is zero reason to carry a firearm for protection in Wisconsin!  Maybe a couple of the cities have some rough neighborhoods? 

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:20 | 2005722 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

No sense being a victim if you don't have to be. As far as it being useless in the SHTF game, where will you be when it comes down?  Its better to have a gun and not need it....


Oh, and I carry.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:52 | 2004459 narapoiddyslexia
narapoiddyslexia's picture

Is this your stash, or a list of wants? If its a list, its wrong. Get all the firearms you can afford, and all the ammo and reloading supplies. If the shtf, arm your friends who were complacent. 

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 00:23 | 2008806 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

Right, and in common calibers, too: 12 guage shotgun, .223/5.56, .308/7.62, 9mm, .38, .40, .45 -and of course, .22.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:54 | 2004470 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Utility function, bitchez.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:56 | 2004784 boattrash
boattrash's picture

Well, on average, a good quality firearm will increase in valua aprox. 10% per year. Beats the hell out of CD's

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:55 | 2004482 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

Silver bullets!!! You always need some for when the blood sucking vampire squids come calling.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:24 | 2004328 FOC 1183
FOC 1183's picture

don't leave home without it

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:25 | 2004330 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"Let me map your mind and I will tell you all you need to know."

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:25 | 2004331 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

But but but, CONsumer CONfidence is rising according to the propaganda so why would people feel the need to buy guns and ammo, not to mention the barbarous relic?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:33 | 2004353 HardwoodAg
HardwoodAg's picture

Consumers have confidence, because more now own some fire-power. Makes for a leveler playing field.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:50 | 2004439 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

f you're hoarding .223, you're already dead.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:14 | 2004582 Vergeltung
Vergeltung's picture

how's that?


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:01 | 2004810 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

If you're going to survive what is coming you need 3 things:

1. Range

2. Penetrating power

3. Things that make bigger holes

.223 don't cut it.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:57 | 2005061 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

Yeah... a .223 does none of those things.

You're an assclown.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 22:21 | 2006138 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

Okay, set a target up in deep underbrush or as I live, in tropical conditions.

Make it visible and fire your Mommy's gun, a Bushmaster at 250 yards.

Then get a real gun which shoots .308.

Let me know which gun hits the target with the bigger hole.

If I'm an "assclown" you're an ignorant fool and never shot a weapon besides playing a video game or masturbated about it while watching Red Dawn 100 times.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 16:15 | 2005125 MonsterBox
MonsterBox's picture

.50 cal, running around 150 grain?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:19 | 2005344 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

".223 don't cut it."

An understatement!
.223 is for rodent control or people with heavy weapon suppport (cannon fodder guys).

Shoot a bowling ball at 100 yards with .223...then one with .308
Come back and let us know the result.

It's better to have the power, and not need it....

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 18:55 | 2005663 X. Kurt OSis
X. Kurt OSis's picture

The 5.56 was adopted during the Vietnam Conflict because of its non-lethality.  Wounded NVA soldiers use up more resources than dead NVA soldiers.  It's easy to fire and to keep on target in full auto, but since most civilian AR15's don't include a fire selector, we don't get that benefit.

I like AR's cause parts and ammo are readily available.  The HK91 would be a way better rifle but they are harder to come by and way more expensive.

I like range and I'm real particular.  I have a pairing of a .270 Winchester and a .300 Winmag.  The 130 grain 270 is one of the most popular cartridges in the US and the 180 grain 300 winmag has almost identical ballistic characteristics so the line of sight drop and wind impact is the same.  I like the fact that the holdoffs are almost precisely the same so you get a feel for shooting in the wind with one and its the same for the other.  I can keep 500 yards between me and a threat with both of those. 

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:22 | 2005730 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

There are a few hundred thousand dead who might take exception, if they only could...

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:25 | 2004638 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Aha! A loyal listener! And you thought "the only war is in Iraq." You should try your hand at being a media personality! I like my life as an amateur fisherman a lot better.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:32 | 2004667 HardwoodAg
HardwoodAg's picture

Fly fishermen have the longest rods, and might even handle a Monteal Whore a couple times a day.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:03 | 2004825 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I'm a fly fisherman! I'm a fly fisherman! Where'd you hear that one? I like it!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 18:16 | 2005506 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

When you need comic relief, there's always Marketwatch.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:38 | 2004336 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



47% of Americans admitting to Gallop they own a gun.


<1% are able to employ a firearm consistently and effectively under stress.*

>99% rely on dumb luck.


Get professional training. 


Be in the 1%.



*Gun fights are stressful

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:40 | 2004384 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Well said.

I use this little rule.  Pick your fights carefully.

Win all fights.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:51 | 2004446 ratso
ratso's picture

The perceived dangers are most likely your own inner demons.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:56 | 2004483 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Well, there's Whitewidia, my Green Demon.

And Brandiminia, my amber liquid demon.

RonPaulia, my spokesmen demon.

Bersa0nia- my very concealable led delivery demon...

Oh, and Preparatparanoionia, my "I have an IQ of 130 and know enough to drop my normalcy bias" demon.  He's my favorite.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:06 | 2004485 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



The perceived dangers are most likely your own inner demons.

Obviously so.  Fortunately, both these inner demons and actual dangers can be vanquished with ability and capability. 

I have learned to listen to my instincts, but you have every right to ignore yours.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:06 | 2004528 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Agreed.  You have every right to ignore reality.  However, you do not get to ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:31 | 2004663 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

How the hell do we move beyond what we "perceive"? I"'ve tried "driving by sense of smell"...but only briefly.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:02 | 2004819 X. Kurt OSis
X. Kurt OSis's picture

The perceived dangers are most likely your own inner demons.

I find this mentaility striking.  My company has a business continuity plan that has contingencies escalating from an event localized in the NY Metro area to an event that essentially assumes the entire eastern half of the US is "offline" that includes staffing and operational support backed up all the way to the Rockies.

In the context of normal corporate risk management, this is not paranoia, it's sensible if not standard operating procedure for similar businesses.  If I personally decide to make preparations that assume the entire Eastern Seaboard could go "offline," I am a paranoid nutjob giving in to my inner demons. 

I'll admit that I stockpile food, ammo, medical supplies and precious metals.  Perhaps I should simply call that Business Continuity Planning.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:07 | 2004846 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

You can call it BCT for short. I'm looking at the Zero Hedge rule book" and it says "you can call anything anything you like."

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:26 | 2004926 X. Kurt OSis
X. Kurt OSis's picture

I honestly think if similar minded people adopted a corporate approach to describing this mentality, the sheep would get it.

Call it "ammo stockpiling for when the shit hits the fan" and you're paranoid.

Call it "calmly remove the life vest from the pouch beneath your seat-business continuity planning" and you are a prudent rational person.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:23 | 2005352 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

It's all about the marketing!!!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:52 | 2004457 toadold
toadold's picture

I was at a Doctors office earlier this year as a new patient. On the paperwork there was a question about if I had firearms in my dwelling. I checked no.  All of my guns, ammo, extra food, and pm was lost in a tragic boating accident.  For some reason I suspect people don't tell pollsters the truth about whether or not they own guns and gold. 

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:21 | 2004613 RobD
RobD's picture

I would have circled the question and added a commit like F**K off and die and walked out. That Dr. is part of the problem.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:09 | 2004856 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I checked "no" as well...but wrote in "I have an arsenal." something about the wording bothered me.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:15 | 2004885 boattrash
boattrash's picture

You should have stated, No, it's in your office with me.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:50 | 2005033 au_bayitch
au_bayitch's picture

#boattrash - LOL

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 18:21 | 2005529 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Standard stuff. ZOG is looking toward regulating firearms as a "health measure".

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:37 | 2004474 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture


Gun fights are stressful indeed.  Training is VERY important. When faced with a life or death situation the body instantly goes into parasympathetic shock, loss of fine motor skills, tunnel vision, brief loss of hearing and time seems to slow down.

Training can help unfreeze you while your body goes through it's natural fight/flight.  Don't rely on a weapon you are not familiar with, and have trained with extensively.  I prefer Glocks and Springfield as carry pieces for this reason. No safety to manipulate under stressful circumstances, just "extend, front sight, touch, press"

Jim Cirillo was in numerous gunfights while serving on the NYPD stakeout squad. His book "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfighters" is very informative.

Rob Pincus has a dvd series "Combat Focus Shooting" that is very informative as well.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:19 | 2004901 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

" the body instantly goes into parasympathetic shock, loss of fine motor skills, tunnel vision, brief loss of hearing and time seems to slow down."

At first glance, it would seem that training on shrooms would be wise.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:56 | 2005056 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

Maybe not shrooms, but people have been known to take meds to counter the bodies natural response to stress.


"Prior to raiding the North Hollywood bank, Phillips and Matasareanu took muscle relaxants, which left them moving in a slow and almost casual manner."

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 16:30 | 2005181 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

On average, 30% of shots fired by low-skilled shooters in close-quarters combat hit their mark ... If you stay cool, that can go to 70%. Focus is more than half the battle.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:14 | 2005329 ClassicalLib17
ClassicalLib17's picture

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman is a good source of knowledge, as well.

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 01:50 | 2006519 Bringin It
Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:20 | 2005345 Thisson
Thisson's picture

Does playing copious amounts of MW3 count as training? says it does...

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 18:16 | 2005463 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

I have to admit playing MW3 is a vice of mine.  I do get irritated by the little kiddies that pretend to be weapons experts because they play COD.  They're always flooding the comments of gun related youtube videos with "akimbo" this "sleight of hand pro" that, and blah, blah, blah.

Perhaps it is more social engineering from the likes of the Rockefeller cabal, but it's better than watching faux news or mslsd... and it helps me vent.

I also like to turn on my bluetooth and play AE911truth videos, interviews with Dr. Alan Sabrosky, and talk about the banking cartel while I'm in an online match, some people listen, most just mute me.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:32 | 2005760 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Getting people to kill is easier than it was in  WW I where they figured 18% could be counted on to actually aim and shoot at the enemy. A little combat experieince brought more of them around. Its called "seasoning the troops". Best to try and stay alive untill you get used to it.  Its about surviving, not winning.

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 11:08 | 2007030 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

You haven't lived until you've had a gun pointed at you in anger.  Practice under stress.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:27 | 2004338 Mad Marv
Mad Marv's picture

If someone asks me, "Do you own a Gun?"  Do you think I tell them??

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:34 | 2004356 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

or how many?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:46 | 2004406 Eally Ucked
Eally Ucked's picture

Are you a prof?

Do you think that when they send 15 guys with guns to subdue you and yor family, you'll have enough fire power to repel it and have time to call other guys to help you, and they will be willing to do it? Just give me a break!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:02 | 2004509 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

15 guys....

Well those same 15 guys may reconsider if a well armed homeowner has them forced into a chokepoint or "fatal funnel" such as a doorway.  A steady stream of combat accurate fire from an elevated position and a bag of loaded magazines can even the odds.

What's the alternative?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:38 | 2004687 Canaduh
Canaduh's picture

I hope your home is made of stone or concrete, cause Mr. Molotov likes to play.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:44 | 2004720 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

Well there's no 100% guarantee, all I'm saying is you can increase your chances.  

Don't know anyone that can throw a bottle more than 50yds, just have to focus on the guy carrying the molotovs first.  He can play with 55 grains going 3200 fps

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:46 | 2004731 woolly mammoth
woolly mammoth's picture

Ignore the 15 guys. Go after the one that send them. Go on the offensive.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 16:26 | 2005165 MonsterBox
MonsterBox's picture

hell.  invite 'em in.  pour 'em a drink.  open the CO bottle and leave to take a leak.  something like that.  the back ups will be wondering soon enough.

oh, and leave town.

if they're zombies, just bury them deep while you air out the house.


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:05 | 2005303 Ignatius J Reilly
Ignatius J Reilly's picture

David Koresh.  All I'm saying is he was heavily armed and they did in fact go after him.  Ignore everything else about the story.  Also remember, human beings listen to authority as proven by the Milgram experiment.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:37 | 2005767 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Koresh made the mistake of relying on stick buildings as self-defense. Oh, and believing that the Feds wouldn't kill women and children. I guess he never heard of the 7th Cavalry.  They killed plenty before meeting the end.

There is no fixed fortification that can't be breached and destroyed. Is your home a fortress? Survive is the first rule, Don't be stupid is #2. Don't go look for a fight is #3.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 20:26 | 2005905 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

#4 Have an exit

Maybe dig a 50yard tunnel off of the wine cellar

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:26 | 2004639 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

has your theory been tested on a citizenry this armed?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:27 | 2004646 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

This is Sparta!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:17 | 2005338 ClassicalLib17
ClassicalLib17's picture

You're assuming they(police?, etc.) will continue to work without getting paid, and in the meantime, who will protect their family while they are out violating the peoples sovereign rights?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:01 | 2005688 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

if it comes to not being paid, we're talking collapse, and most will work for food, rest assured.

and then there are the ones who do the work. . . for fun.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:41 | 2004389 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Actually you could ask, "Why, do you work for the ATF?"

...helps put things in the proper perspective...

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:28 | 2004647 Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

Gallup estimate has to be low.  Who would tell some clown on the phone about their gun ownership? 

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:27 | 2004339 achmachat
achmachat's picture

Not from a country where we have access to these things, so this is a question for the US folks:

why would you possibly need ammo with jackets? aren't those to pierce "light" armor?

If somebody attacks you and you shoot that person with a lead-slug, won't the wound be just as disabling?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:37 | 2004372 Y2JPD
Y2JPD's picture

What is the attacker is in a car?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:08 | 2004547 Mad Marv
Mad Marv's picture

I have heard that a .50 round fired into the vicinity of the engine compartment would probably put the passengers on their feet.  Then just a matter of picking them off.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:34 | 2004627 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

.50 round fired into the vicinity of the engine compartment would probably put the passengers on their feet


...and the trigger-puller on their backside.  .50 is a special round that is only really useful for well-trained individuals.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:57 | 2004795 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

There's a lot of kick taken off by a really, really heavy barrel and a properly tuned muzzle brake.  Shooting exceptionally long distances is only really useful for well-trained individuals...  but within 500 ish yards, you don't need anything but a steady hand.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:59 | 2004807 Sabibaby
Sabibaby's picture

Well it's good to know we can pick up a brand new Barret .50 at the gun store if we're feeling adventurous...

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:08 | 2004827 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

Not really... Anyone with knowledge of rifles can shoot a .50. The biggest difference I see is the $12K it's going to cost you. (If you go with a Barrett)

Watch a 12 year old send a .50 downrange no sweat.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:18 | 2004893 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture



I stand corrected.  Too many Vince Flynn novels, I guess.  I tout two Remington model sevens for hunting, an 870 shotgun and a .38 handgun (plus enough ammo to keep me company for a long, long time).   

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:37 | 2004373 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Denpends on who is shooting at you.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:41 | 2004388 SemperFord
SemperFord's picture

Have you never heard about the Hollywood bank shootout??? It's not just the good guys wearing bulletproof vests ;)

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 16:01 | 2005080 Sabibaby
Sabibaby's picture

You mean.... the banksters are too!!!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:53 | 2004392 RobD
RobD's picture

A copper jacket(most common but other alloys can be used) on bullets do a number of things in regards to ballistics and terminal performance but piercing light armor is not one of them. One example is that some of the new rifling groves cut into the barrels do not function well without a jacketed bullet. The rifling in glock barrels will fill up with lead and cause dangerous pressures to build up if unjacketed bullets are used.


Edit: typically pistol rounds are not capable of penetrating "light armor" as that is what the bullet resistant vests are designed to stop. Rifle rounds on the other hand will penetrate light armor unless a steel or ceramic plate is installed. Also high velocity bullets need some kind of jacketing to keep them from deforming or coming apart from the forces produced by the spin of the bullet. Older slower rifle rounds did not have these forces so many of them were just plan old lead. Not sure if they would penetrate light armor or not.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:14 | 2004583 achmachat
achmachat's picture

thanks! the rifling argument makes sense!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 16:13 | 2005113 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

typically pistol rounds are not capable of penetrating "light armor"

If you can still find it at gun shows I recommend Aguila IQ.  I have seen an IQ 9mm penetrate both panels of a BP vest, (no trauma plate).  Not sure if they are still available commercially?

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:44 | 2004403 Socratic Dog
Socratic Dog's picture

You've sorta answered your own question.  Yes, light armour.  Such as certain individuals are known to wear.

Also of note, if you use military calibers, then military rounds are cheaper.  And military rounds are jacketed. 

Why use military calibers?  Because they're good calibers.  And because surplus military weapons come in military calibers, even if they're 110-year old military calibers, and surplus military weapons are good and also cheap.  Mosins and Mausers and Enfields are great weapons.  Just ask the taliban, who beat the russians wit them. 

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:19 | 2004900 Uber Vandal
Uber Vandal's picture

Another reason for the use of military calibers is the ability to use your opponents supplies against them if things really get out of hand.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:48 | 2004423 Spigot
Spigot's picture

I prefer lower velocity, hollow point rounds, they transfer a lot more energy into the target and make a much larger exit wound. I also prefer single shot semi-autos or even bolt or lever actions to autos since it forces you to make a better first shot. Autos are useless after the first round exits the muzzle. I'm not a believer in "spray and pray". My motto is "Shoot&Scoot", catch me if you can.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:54 | 2004475 Agent P
Agent P's picture

"I'm not a believer in "spray and pray". My motto is "Shoot&Scoot", catch me if you can."

Many a youngsters apply this same philosophy to teen pregnancy.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:01 | 2004504 Killtruck
Killtruck's picture

"Autos are useless after the first round exits the muzzle."

Anyone with trigger time on an M249 SAW will disagree with you.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:23 | 2004621 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

I prefer 30 cal AP myself...

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:04 | 2004518 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Jacketed ammo fouls barrels alot less then straight up lead does, it doesnt really penetrate armor much better.

For that you want steel core ammo which is legal to buy and possess in most states.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:36 | 2004679 navy62802
navy62802's picture

The jacket on the bullet isn't there to increase armor penetration, it's there to decrease friction with the barrel as the bullet travels down it.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:39 | 2004694 Don Diego
Don Diego's picture

what are you talking about? Luxembourg has the least restrictive gun laws in Europe after Switzerland......

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:51 | 2004755 aerojet
aerojet's picture

We like to keep our bullets warm, most US states are fairly cold in the winter.


Seriously, the copper jackets allows for higher velocities and won't foul the barrel with lead.  Technology and all that.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 15:13 | 2004880 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Having been disabled by a "plastic jacketed slug" it is true "one not need a full metal jacket." I believe however the heat generated by the explosion calls for a full metal jacket. Not that there couldn't be a plastic alternative of course.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 16:05 | 2005095 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

I only shoot copper jacketed ammo.  Shooting lead ammo (no jacket) dirties the shit out of your gun and can lead to failure to fire.  Not to mention it makes cleaning more of a pain in the ass.

As far as "piercing light armor" I think you might be thinking of teflon...

Refering to your comment about the lead slug, that is exclusive to shotguns.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 19:41 | 2005777 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Jacketed bullets keep the bore cleaner(no leading) and perform better.  A copper jacket in no way imbues an ability to pierce anything that plain lead would not. Armor piercing are another thing altogether.

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 10:09 | 2006873 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture


Not from a country where we have access to these things, so this is a question for the US folks:

why would you possibly need ammo with jackets? aren't those to pierce "light" armor?

If somebody attacks you and you shoot that person with a lead-slug, won't the wound be just as disabling?



The copper skin serves several purposes achmachat. First, it prevents lead fouling of the barrel, and dramatically increase accuracy. Second, for Geneva convention purposes it holds the rould together so that it does not expand (expanding rounds are illegal in warfare under the convention - which is ironic because they are actually cruel to use, see below). Third, when used in hollowpoint ammunition, it causes controlled expansion, which keeps the round from fragmenting - fragmenting can be extremely deadly. 


Hollowpoints are used in self defense and law enforcement because they are more humane and often less lethal believe it or not. Plus they prevent overpenetration which is when the round goes through someone and often strikes a bystander. Full metal jacket rounds, those that do not expand, are like stabbing someone with an icepick the diameter of the bullet. Unless you hit the nervous system, they're not going down right away. Which means that you have to shoot them multiple times to stop them as a threat. This is the deadly part. Multiple wounds, all bleeding out at once, very difficult for surgeons to treat. With a hollowpoint, a single round hits the assailant, expands, and dumps ALL of its energy into the attacker. That energy dump is extremely potent at knocking them down in often a single shot. Then that single wound can be treated the the person saved from death. This is the humane part. You're not shooting him full of a half a dozen holes to stop him from harming you, which often leads to an agonizing, drawn out death. Instead, you're thumping him with a single, hard-hitting shot that puts his ass on the ground like right now. 

Just lead alone is cruel in my opinion. They fragment way to much and produce horrible wounds. 

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 17:47 | 2008337 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

No to the armor piercing. Wikipedia is good for some things:

"The next important change in the history of the rifle bullet occurred in 1882, when Major Eduard Rubin, director of the Swiss Army Laboratory at Thun, invented the copper jacketed bullet — an elongated bullet with a lead core in a copper jacket. It was also small bore (7.5mm and 8mm) and it is the precursor of the 8mm "Lebel bullet" which was adopted for the smokeless powder ammunition of the Mle 1886 Lebel rifle.

The surface of lead bullets fired at high velocity may melt due to hot gases behind and friction with the bore. Because copper has a higher melting point, and greater specific heat capacity and hardness, copper jacketed bullets allow greater muzzle velocities.

European advances in aerodynamics led to the pointed spitzer bullet. By the beginning of the twentieth century, most world armies had begun to transition to spitzer bullets. These bullets flew for greater distances more accurately and carried more energy with them. Spitzer bullets combined with machine guns greatly increased the lethality of the battlefield."


A lead bullet up close might be more deadly due to easy expansion/fragmentation. But it will not fly faster for longer distances.
They drill out tips of jacketed bullets, "hollowpoints" so that the bullet reliably expands inside the "victim" causing maximum damage. These are used for self defense/hunting mainly. Armies don't go to war with them.

Bullets and the damage they do is mostly about mass and velocity.
Big slow bullet...big damage....short range.
Small slow bullet...tiny damage..short range.
Small bullet accelerated very fast...medium/big damage...long range.

It's all engineering tradeoffs.

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:28 | 2004340 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Stock up now before the prices go up and there are shortages.  Iraq is falling apart after the withdrawal. Everything he does fails.

Next Afghanistan. Drones are being rendered useless by enemy hackers in several nations that hate the US including China and Russia.


Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:28 | 2004341 economessed
economessed's picture

If guns and ammo are the new currency, I'M GOING TO BE RICH!!!!!

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:28 | 2004343 Irish66
Irish66's picture

Northeast better catch up

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:35 | 2004358 OpenEyes
OpenEyes's picture

Northeast can't catch-up.  Gun ownership laws are onerous in most NE states.  I live in NY City and I can tell you that, unless you are a cop or work for the G'ment, it's practially impossible to get a permit to even own a gun, much less carry one.  And the penalties for not complying with registration laws are really severe including mandatory time in the big house.  

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 13:48 | 2004426 Irish66
Irish66's picture

I'd tell you what state to go to but I'd be shot

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:16 | 2004593 Xanadu_doo
Xanadu_doo's picture

Another good reason to get out of NYC!


Although Zombie Rockettes might be an interesting sight...

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 14:54 | 2004767 clymer
clymer's picture

I live in MA. Just go for legal long guns and spend time at the range. a .22 is better than nothing (and the ammo is cheap)

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 17:45 | 2005408 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Er, Vermont & New Hampshire ring a bell? Both are OPEN carry states. Just hang a gun on your belt and walk around town. New Hampshire you just trot down to the police chief or sherriff and have them sign your conceal carry permit. Vermont I don't think they even need the permit! I'm not sure about Maine but I don't believe the gun laws are onerous (it's definitely not open carry though).

Thu, 12/22/2011 - 20:54 | 2005967 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

many states are open carry, unless you have a felony or DV conviction

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