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Infographic: Reevaluating The Costs And Benefits Of (Debt Bubble-Funded) Higher Education
While the college debt bubble has been extensively discussed on Zero Hedge (here, here and here) and elsewhere, the reality is that without college student loans, as cheap as they may be, the vast majority of students would not be able to afford going to college, untenable (and non-dischargeable) post-graduation leverage be damned. Please ignore for a second the reflexivity of this symbiotic relationship - that college is so expensive only because college debt is so easily obtainable (and as noted here, between car loans and student debt, is the primary source of consumer debt in the past year). There is a reason why NINJA loans led to the biggest housing bubble of all time; also we wonder - in 5 years when this bubble also pops, how many congressional hearings will there be on the topic of just who allowed all these student to drown in debt that most of them would never be able to repay?
That said there are two sides to every story: on one hand students are conditioned to believe that they need college to survive in the current world (with statistics such as these floating out there: drop outs since 2002 have "cost" the nation $3.8 billion in lost income and over $700 million in lost taxes), while on the other hand, the burden of a massive debt load, even if with manageable interest expenses, leave the student burdened with principal amortization which alone has a crippling effect on the individual psychology. Is it time to reevaluate higher education? Look at this infographic from OnlineCollege, which summarizes the side effects of soaring college costs, and decide for yourselves.
Courtesy of: Online College News
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College + Debt = Slavery
muppet = slave
I can only imagine the feeling of fury given the current environment when a lot of these kids finally realize they've been totally lied to, and that they will have to shoulder six figures of debt in perpetuity because they'll be working some shitty part time job when they graduate, if working at all. And here they have thought they were being prepared for the world, in one of the overhyped F.I.R.E. businesses most likely, thinking that their overpaid, smugly grinning tenured professors with full health care coverage were just happy to be teaching even though they had barely-paid TA's doing most of the instruction for them. In reality higher education has turned into a giant fucking scam, and the professors are on the front line, reaping fat salaries and great benefits knowing FULL WELL they are doing so on the backs of penniless students who won't be getting a job any time soon. But they will happily sit in their ivory towers, not really giving a shit because they have their perfect tenured academic job, feeling amazingly superior that they got their guaranteed spot on the gravy train forever, and fuck all these kids they supposedly care about. Ironically, they happily fill the role as self-appraised gatekeepers of the corporate world even as they condemn its entrants to debt slavery.
"Here's your diploma my beloved students," they'll think, "welcome to the world of interest-paying servitude where you will spend the next decade or more paying off debt used to fund my salary. I think I'll go have another latte while my paid-chickenscratch-TA teaches the class and instead read the school copy of the always-reaffirming New York Times in the professor's lounge and ensure my feelings of intellectual and moral superiority are fully elevated."
Shit, this means I'll never get rid of my daughters
no just their debt
Damn Red Pill, calling me out like that.
The thing that outrages me most about college is the flat out lies taught in text books and classes. If these students were learning how the world operates, in my case economics, that it might be worth it, but the vast majority of the time students are being feed shit.
One of the most horrible experiences of my life was finding out I was regurgitating propaganda from my professors to new students. Finding out through my own research and study that what I was taught was bull shit. I had to spend my own money and time reading about economics because my college education was useless. That fucking pissed me off.
I paid my way through college. If I had paid $100,000 and gone into debt to learn fucking bull shit someone would pay.
--Shit, this means I'll never get rid of my daughters--
Just let them find a man to support them - like the old days.
Sorry, guys aren't as stupid as they used to be.
Two words: Government Service.
Some of it will be low paying and taken for debt relief, but much of it will compensate at well above the national private-sector average. Gotta do something with all those lawyers and PhDs.
Except in most public sector jobs youre paid much more than your private sector counterparts. Add to this the fact that its almost impossible to get terminated (they just send you to 'help' classes or in the worst case move you to another dept. in which you 'fit').
On the topic of education and gov bene's, get this. My girlfriend is an engineer for the government. Not only is she out of college getting more then her college friends, engineers too, that work private sector, but she is currently taking masters classes at a pretty well known (in her field) university. Oh yeah, I might mention that she is not paying for it, her job is covering the costs - or should I say us taxpayers.
Beats my ex though. She is saddled with debt from student loans after studying acting for 4 years thinking she would eventually make it big. I had told her she would've done better practicing fellatio for a year then going out to cali to put the skills to use.
"I had told her she would've done better practicing fellatio for a year then going out to cali to put the skills to use."
While your ex might not have done it, trust me, many many Generation Y women are. It beats working at Starbucks or Target. Also, lots of young women using these aforementioned "skills" to climb the corporate ladder. For whatever reason, I've noticed that young women are having the most psychological difficulty in dealing with the economic crisis that we're in. If appearances and social status matter a lot to you, it's hard to ditch the handbag or downgrade and move into a crappier part of town. THAT is how a lot of Gen Y women will end up paying their debt, realistically. What is interesting to me is what effect this will have on gender dynamics 10 or 20 years down the road.
As a member of the Borg--a professor at an Ivy League school--and officer on the Death Star--a Zero Hedger for years and Austrian economist at heart for a dozen years--I am in a position to (1) see both sides of the story, or (2) have my head blow up like a bit player in the movie Scanners. (Some of you guys know the name behind "Thomas".) With that said, here are some thoughts for what they are worth:
(1) Guaranteed payers guarantee inflation. The article has it right. The student loan problem is huge and destructive. I have not been bashful about stating this (as well as my hatred for the Fed, Wall Street crooks, feckless regulators, and politicians worthy of a noose.)
(2) Salaries, construction, services, and everything else imaginable has soared over the years in what is akin to an "arms race". When Princeton is willing to buy a chemist for $15 million (research support and startup), you know something is out of whack
(3) The top paid academics are as smart and talented (entrepreneurial) as the top paid industrial guys. Curiously, if you stay in science, you have a higher end salary potential in academia than in industry (unless you forge out and start a company.)
(4) Given the talent that I get to work with, I can assure you that most of these kids will more than pay their tuition bills with increased earnings. With that said, there are kids who will major in dumb stuff with little earnings potential. Ohers will squander their time here. Kids must be smarter about what they are studying and why. No SAT score will compensate for bad decision making.
(5) A vast number of kids should not go to college, and we could live with half the number of colleges. A vast number of colleges would make themselves more viable if they focused their attention on strengths and on specific careers. (If you want a great example, check out Paul Smith's College--only four majors but they do a great job. They did wonders with my older son. You won't want to hear this, but he works at the CFR.)
(6) Kids go to college out of momentum. So many would benefit from some time off. My younger son, a profound over achiever in high school, drifted in his first two years. A year in the work force at my urging and he came back with a vision. He just got a summer internship in the heart of Manhattan. Neurotic parents should fight their urge to push kids through college by stepping on the brakes for them if necessary. Parents are often the problem.
I should probably wrap this post. Yes I am well paid but I would have been well paid in industry as well. If you've read this far you are welcome to email me (dbc6@cornell.edu). If you are really sharp and gifted with Google, you might even figure out who I am. :-)
Careful what you wish for; I'm not even that sharp and yet had your cell number in about 30 seconds.
You are good. I wouldn't have a clue how to get my cell number. Send me an email and tell me.
I just want to know who the chick is.
David B. http://www.chem.cornell.edu/dbc6/publications/82.pdf
The chick is "Mercury Girl", a Harvard grad whose television commercials showed her to be so fetching that they had to dial them back to keep the car in focus.
Not her best but...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7eT9MghOWI
Thanks for sharing (your personal info, your insights, and avatar background [the Mecury girl is HOT]).
I have a 9th grader who is honors/top of class for all her years in school but I'm worrying about a $120k college bill, especially since these last 3 years have seen my (variable/commission) income drop by 50%.
Really, the only thing that was worth while in a 4-year BA Business program was the accounting, econ, & demographics classes - but 30 years ago, I didn't pay much at the state university. Everything else I've learned since then has been by reading and listening; a much more extensive education.
BTW, the link for the top-most graphic is broken - the link for those needing a bigger view is http://www.onlinecollege.org/rising-college-costs
Sorry, that link is to the original article, here is the enlarged graphic - https://s3.amazonaws.com/infographics/Rising-College-Cost-800.png
semper paratus, The Navigator
I didn't look hard but I was glad to be reminded about the National Do Not Call Registry. With some new numbers on since the last time I registered us, thanks.
"No SAT score will compensate for bad decision making". That is even more important when choosing a spouse. Many of my friends who made a lot more than myself during their working years ended up nearly destitute because of one and, in some cases, two bad marriage choices.
"No SAT score will compensate for bad decision making". That is even more important when choosing a spouse. Many of my friends who made a lot more than myself during their working years ended up nearly destitute because of one and, in some cases, two bad marriage choices.
Bingo! That data acquisiton boondogle in Utah is really just WPA for unemployed math and computer science grads. Gotta make the education con look like a worthwhile "investment"...
I would rather another CCC, but that non-virtual work is so, well, uncool...
The whole thing is an illusion and a racket. Does anyone know where the tuition money actually goes? How much money is in various foundations, grants, donations, endowments, etc.? How does government interference make things that much worse? It's looking very much like just another massive slush fund if not outright laundering. No one seems to know where all these staggering amounts of money get allocated.
There must be some way to correlate jobs with degrees, and a reduction or refund if the degree is in a field known by the school to be overcrowded and thus difficult to find, such as the arts, social "sciences," teaching, and the like.
The schools know very well what job projections look like and if they promote risky job prospects anyway and lure starry-eyed teenagers into debt-slavery they should assist in placing the students or reduce or forgive the debt.
I've heard far too many stories of crushing loans being paid back via jobs that were never studied as a subject. Which means decent paying jobs can often be found in other areas, and many industries will train on the job, so expensive schooling is not always needed, although the schools have somehow made themselves indispensable.
If they do not produce viability in their courses and graduates they need to shut down the non-functional classes or offer them at reduced tuition. They are part of the problem and they have to start paying.
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned FIRE. For at least the past 20 years or so, FIRE was the goal of many students because that is where the big bucks were at. The thing is, a real education isn't vital for success in these fields. Who needs education when you can make $100,000 by flipping a house you bought 2 months prior with no money down? Who needs to know anything about accounting when everything is mark-to-fantasy? Who needs to study history when all markets will always go up, forever? Who needs to study the fine print on CDS contracts when no country will default, ever? Get the picture? Having a real education was/is a liability, not an asset, because it might actually make you second-guess something or challenge concensus opinion when all of the money lies in going along with the scam.
That's one major reason why education has been so devalued in our country. I'm in my mid-20s, not too far removed from college, and I feel comfortable saying that many of my collegiate peers simply did not give a fuck about what we were studying nor did they have any real passion for learning anything. The students don't give a shit so the professors/administrators don't give a shit either.
the paper chase
Go State! Beat State!!
Which state? Marx had it all wrong. Sports is the opiate of the masses. And , bye the way...Go Heels!
you mean...GO PACK!!!!!! see yall in two games!
Sorry everyone -- trying to get used to a new computer
"Wrist -- meet SLAP!" ;]
I can always tell people who have zero clue about higher education, scam or no scam: if they think anything except the very highest paid, "name brand" professors have any real institutional power to effect change, outside of how they teach their assigned classes, you have zero clue.
Here is a little inside tip: the "professoriate" has been steadily "proletarianized" for the past 40 years. In large state university systems -- the entire systems -- you are looking at >60% are adjunct faculty: "surplus Ph.ds"
The professoriate got caught too, you dimwit. We all got had.
I've written about my experience previously on another post. However, I went back to college at in 1993 around age 35, after doing one semester at a 'free' California Community College aka "Tumbleweed Tech" in 1977.
I was focused and driven to complete a BS in the shortest amount of time and at minimal cost.
I decided on getting an Accounting degree. After my first renewed semester at the formerly free college I found that additional units could be added after a certain threshold for no additional charge (except for outrageously priced textbooks).
Being an older student with a bit of actual life experience I found that I had a couple conflicts with instructors. One was a mushmouth who barely spoke english and seemed to have no lesson plan in place to match to the textbook. I got him fired after demanding that the dean attend a class with me to witness the performance.
I took some sort of required entry level computer class where the instructor declared that every sort of programming was done using some form of Cobal code. I called her on it and shared my Lotus application programming with her and the class that I had written to manage Trust Funds. Not all programming required what she declared.
I took an English class were I usually had the instructor rolling on the floor laughing over stories he thought were totally made up. And got into a thunderous argument with him over the stupidity of assuming a writers hidden message in some idiot image on a piano. Nothing was stated about such message, merely that there was a beer on the piano. Still don't see the relevancy to what the instructor insisted on, except the guy might get thirsty and wanted his fucking beer nearby.
Got kicked out of a law class after the instuctor went on about how juries were supposed to be impartial and not know the defendent and I explained that it was incorrect historically and legally. I said that the original law meant that the jury was the baker, the candlestick maker, people that knew your character, and they sat there and decided weather your character and reputation matched the charge. The instructor came to me the next day and apologized after doing his own readings and put me back into class if I didn't tell anyone.
The most disgusting incident during my college period was going to the shitter in the college that taught 'teachers' near the library. I sat there in a stall as two future teachers complained about how tough it was taking remedial english, remedial math and remedial writing. They were somewhat happy to have earned 50% scores on the tests they had taken. 50% apparently was better than a passing score.
candlestick... shitter... disgusting incident... HFT trading going bullish now on San Fran hotels
Bravo redpill!
I'd give you +100 if I could.
I must be one in 100,000, because as soon as I turned 18 or so, what I read in the newspapers and read in College began to set off my bullshit meter nearly fulltime. Living in DC it was clearly obvious that most of what was accepted as reality was patent nonsense.
Feminism, PC and Affirmative Action were clearly revenge-based ideologies built on lies, and neither party had any interest in anything other than passing the baton to the next in 4 year intervals.
Did everyone REALLY believe what their profs and books said and absorbed it as 'Truth', blindly, with no critical faculty engaged at all?
The good ones presented many sides of any argument or problem. I was lucky to have had a few of those.
Here's a site that has interesting info on the Education Bubble Complex.
EduBubble A site about the book: Beating the College Bubble
Do you want someone to be qualified to teach college? How about English?
Students want to improve, want to earn degrees, have goals. Teachers help them reach those goals.
I teach college. I know very few if any college teachers who make six figures. The standard pay at our community college is around 35k. Anyone making significantly above that is in admin. And the monthly take-home pay is barely over 2k. Those benefits cost, and those earning closer to 45 are working huge, stressful overloads.
Your post is a bunch of crap. I've been telling students that 911 was an inside job and running down the NYT for fifteen years. Last semester I graded over a thousand papers/discussions, teaching online. I have watched students go on from our community college to big universities.
I had a huge student loan debt, too, to get to where I am.
I'm sure that there are some professors like you depict above, but they are few and far between. Many of us at the college level work very hard for low pay, and the bulk of the work is done by adjuncts, folks who earn a poverty level living.
Know wtf you're talking about before posting shit.
Enroll today, study the Paul Krugman apocalyptic economic framework in the workings.
It's all good. Graduates of these institutions and many, many other ones like it, will help the U.S. catch up to and leapfrog their asian competition in highly technical and advanced applications:
Plenty of free classes available online from MIT, Princeton(?), and others.
You are deluded ... I've hired internationally, and the average US college grad nowadays barely stacks up in mechanical skills like science and math, much less critical thinking and synthesis, against European and Asian grads. May as well get used to being the next home of call center work.
I disagree, and I've done hiring, too.
I don't disagree that students today are lacking. They are.
But saying Asian and Europeans are better prepared? That's a laugh. The ones you've seen are the best of the best of the best. They come here because they know they can make out like bandits. Try hiring abroad for offices overseas.
These kids are just as bad as US students. I give them the edge in science and math, but I give the edge to the US students in critical thinking and synthesis. Problem is, without a decent background in math, most critical thinking and synthesis leads to poor decision making. Don't confuse that with an inability to actually apply information.
It's one thing to know stuff from rote, the way Asians and Europeans do (I stereotype here for a reason, certainly not all are like this), but Americans are much more creative. I've seen kids talk their way into jobs they should never have. This is a compliment on their skills, but a knock on the people moving people up too quickly without proper preparedness or knowledge. These kids recognize openings, know how to spin a story, tell theirs well, and move in for the kill. They can talk their way out of paper bags.
It takes skill to see through their bullshit. It's not hard, but most managers today have been taught to seek out buzzwords, go for style over substance, and find someone who 'fits' or they can 'tolerate'. In essence, as poorly prepared as these kids are (and they are poorly prepared) the managers are just as bad.
I've been lamenting the state of college grads for years. My wife thinks it's a joke. But she's never hired anyone in her life.
I keep whatever I'm reading on my desk to see if kids notice it or ask about it. Most never pay it any heed. They don't even know what a book looks like anymore, and a Kindle could have anything loaded on it - how would they know? I had one kid pick up my book, ask me "is this any good?" and I told him yes, is he interested? He said "no, I don't like to read." Seriously? In an interview? Guess what, genius, this job is all reading.
Meanwhile, I had some European kid tell me about his wonderful education. I asked him how he could apply what he learned to the position he was seeking. The silence was awkward and deafening. I get the feeling he went to college because it was free (taxpayers pay for everything), everyone else was going, and it was supposed to offer him opportunity. I gave him the opportunity to seek employment elsewhere. Free education leaves these students unable to comprehend what education is about.
At least in the US, these kids come out with responsibliities, even if they are overburdened with it. They get launched into the real world like a baby expelled from a vaginal canal.
IP. You are really an old moaner. You interview one European grad and you form your opinion on this basis.. Check your premise.
do you really want him to list 100 examples ?? i gotta feeling he'll do it...
"They get launched into the real world like a baby expelled from a vaginal canal."
You, sir, win the Zero Hedge quote of the day award.
But it's more like being launched from the womb into a pile of shit. American children are so sheltered and unprepared for the real world that it is absurd. I know, I was one of those American kids not so long ago, growing up with a head full of TV and public school education, neither of which has much basis in reality.
My stint in the military mostly reconditioned me for the real world. Mostly.
depends.. u tryin to be a cop or something?
So you were conditioned for the real world by learning how to take orders?
I learned: Self discipline. What real, hard, physical work really is. Just how bad life can get. How amazingly awesome life really is for most Americans/Europeans compared to how bad things can be.
Working a 12 hour shift doesn't seem so bad when you've worked a 40 hour shift. Working for middle class wages doesn't seem so bad when you've risked your life for $4 an hour. Putting in 40 hours a week at some comfortable office job ain't so bad when you've lived, breathed, ate and slept your job for months at a time.
And most of all, I learned it is better to be in control of my own fate than to let someone else make decisions for me.
If you disagree with our foreign policy then you should leave the country. Democracy is an illusion and you cannot bring an end to our global imperial empire via the ballot box. And if you stay and enjoy the fruits of our global empire via your elevated standard of living then you are the ultimate hypocrit, one that suckles on the excesses of the American Empire while decrying the methods it uses to create that bounty.
And don't move to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or the U.K. either. They are all joined at the hip with the U.S. when it comes to foreign policy.
that's kinda a narrow view of history projecting unlimited king of the hill status... you do know this Empire thing rotates right?
Spoken just like the kind of programmed goon who would willingly load us all into boxcars.
On the contrary, spoken like someone who actually understands the way the world works. It is an ugly truth, but it is the truth... open your eyes and you will see.
I'll be somewhere in Europe while you're over here in the U.S. wondering why voting for Obama didn't bring the American imperial empire grinding to a halt. I'll be learning a new language and trying to integrate into a culture that hasn't fought a war in 50 years while you're protesting, thinking that protests actually matter to anyone.
Democracy is an illusion. You cannot change American foreign policy via the ballot box. The ruling class believes that the peasantry has no business even trying to comprehend American foreign or economic policy, let alone should have any hand in crafting it.
So go back to your Republican primaries, which are more about which candidate supports Israel the most, which one loves Jesus the most, and which one hates fags the most, than anything else. Ron Paul tried to interject discussion of foreign and economic policy into the debate and the media ran roughshod over him, refocusing the debate on social and moral issues. And the sheeple roared in approval.
So make your choice, Blue team or Red team. One will let gays serve in our military, but neither will stop using our military to shape and enforce the global American empire. And you folks in the homeland enjoy untold benefits from this global empire, whether you want to admit it or not. So if you disagree with the foreign policy of the Anglo military empire then you need to leave the Anglo countries.
But you won't, because in fact you love suckling on the excesses of global empire. You love your high standard of living. You love your global military empire.
AndTheRest, I can only applaud. Military service changes your life in a mostly positive way - at the very least you learn to hate unnecessary war and compulsion. My service was tipical for the european continent in a time when the draft was more common.
I agree it teaches all the above. And more.
In fact, I'd go so far to say that a republic is only balanced with an universal draft (I'd exclude women - personal view).
Or when only service veterans are allowed to make decisions about foreign involvements. Then you have your ballot box results.
Starship Troopers, bitchez!
nice little juvenile book - but the principles and ideas are much older, they go back some 3'000 years to the Greek Polis and were actually the roots of our civilization, our understanding of republics and democracies, even flowing into the US 2nd Amendment...
So in summary you prefer a more clueless US kid with nice talking skills over a European/Asian with deeper education but less selling instinct?
Well, you didn't state what kind of job you were hiring for, so I cannot give an opinion really.
But I think in most professions you will do better with the European-type, which not necessarily means it has to be non-US educated.
So what you're basically saying is that most American grads are ignorant, lazy, clueless fucktards with a Masters in Self-Confidence, Lies & Bullshit?
I've been working on my Master of Creative Distubances for years...but I procrastinate.
The poster mentions university of phoenix as a way to help us do better than China, and you mention the poster is deluded. HI. UNIVERSITY OF PHEONIX. HE KNOWS IT'S A FUCKING JOKE. ANYONE HOME? READING COMPREHENSION 101. Are you one of the clueless Americans you disparage in your comment?
Channeling MDB today, are you??
His dry humor went over The Alarmist's head, so I'd have to say yes. On a good day you can't tell MDB is joking.
we shall all become self-made
most people can't even make their beds
" University of Phoenix " ? Isn't that for people who couldn't get into Oral Roberts U. ?
The cost of education has basically made slaves out of students. It is disgusting.
http://ericsprott.blogspot.ca/
Let's review how the finance industry has made America debt slaves:
-new laws that make credit card debt impossible to chargeoff in bankruptcy
-new laws that allow services like insurance to charge more based on credit score, forcing people to pay off debt
-employers using credit scores for a basis of not hiring someone, forcing people to pay off outrageous debt
-student loan debt; 18-25 year old kids borrowing $100,000s that is unforgiveable even in bankrutpcy
-retail cards with deffered interest, plopping 18 months of interest at 29% on unassuming cardholders
-subprime auto loans at 25%+ interest rates
-housing debt, people that can't sell their house nor refinance, towing debt that has no backing asset, and despite the mantra of "just walk away", see above to what happens to your life with bad credit
Laws are making us debt slaves, unable to escape huge fees and interest rates and lending practices are taking advantage of it.
Welcome to debt servitude that you only escape by death....well not even then.
Here's the rub ... What you and I see as "debt slavery" is "the lifestyle I deserve" to most Americans. Without "debt slavery," most Americans would be at a complete loss because they wouldn't be able to buy all the new toys and do all the things that allow them to keep up with Joneses and make them feel better about themselves.
By the way, keep an eye on the subprime auto loans. I live in a relatively low-income neighborhood and it seems like I see a brand-new car with dealer plates every single day somewhere along my 15-minute walk to work. Saw a new Range Rover today, saw a Toyota Tacoma and Infiniti SUV last week. It's another bubble in the making and outside of ZH I haven't seen it given much coverage.
"Here's the rub ... What you and I see as "debt slavery" is "the lifestyle I deserve" to most Americans. Without "debt slavery," most Americans would be at a complete loss because they wouldn't be able to buy all the new toys and do all the things that allow them to keep up with Joneses and make them feel better about themselves."
This is an oversimplification at best - a total fallacy at worst.
Two points:
- Without having to pay all that interest to banksters, the current debt slaves would have MUCH MORE free cash flow to buy stuff to 'keep up with the Joneses.'
- Housing, student loans, cars, etc - all priced TOO high because of the availability of easy credit. Take the easy credit away and prices FALL - hence "all the new toys" as you put it become more affordable.
Cars are priced too high, and their prices could/should fall further, without quality impairment I assume? You really need a reality check.
And (more) free cash flow enables you to save for a few years before buying something - right, exactly what everybody really wants deep down in his heart!
And then accusing others of oversimplification
Fallacy ?
So how many months does Archie Doo-Da (who has a free cash flow of $50 a month) have to save before he can buy that new $2500 projector TV ?
Debit or CREDIT...wick wack, thank you come again
If Archie starts saving when the TV comes out that'll be 2 years or less.
If Archie starts saving before the TV goes for sale then it's a balance: the rate of cash accumulation is linear but the rate of TV price decrease is exponential (1/2 price every 12 months or so, 18 maybe, depending on market factors for that style of TV).
The DLP's as it happens were shit-hot but are no longer manufactured.
Or I suppose Archie could become a debt-slave for life using the credit card because the minimum payment will exceed his monthly cash flow but not the interest on the principle. Ever ($55.26 likely).
"debt" isn't buying. Hence those funny shows on TV about repo-fights & scams.
A person hasn't "bought" until their debt is really paid (if ever) & a series of things (house, car, etc) that aren't "paid for" can be taken. At any time the non-payment irks the lender, the real owner of said lifestyle objects.
very good summary - perhaps you forgot one thing: the pervasiveness of the credit score
one thing several friends explained to me is that if you don't have any debt, you don't have a credit score
and too many other things are directly linked to the credit score in the US
so - as they tell me - you have to build debt up and down just to exist and fit in the system
WTF employers, insurers and banks (for a debit card) asking for my credit score? I'm still a bit fazed by that, it's totally out of my life experience here in europe...
I wonder what mine is... I haven't used credit in years
Most modern education is useless. Educators have lost sight of the forest and focus only on the trees resulting in students that have no clue how to truly think. As an experiment, I visited an elementary and pre-elementary school where I asked every teacher to perform the same task. How do you pronounce the letter 'W' and write it out the way you pronounce it. The answers varied from 'dubba you' to 'dubby you' to 'dub you'. Some geniuses said 'dubba you' but wrote down 'W'. None of them got the correct answer of 'double you'. When presented with the correct answer only one of them was able to think the answer through that the letter 'W' was named 'double you' because in cursive it is the double of the letter 'U'! The rest of the educators of our children thought I was crazy or lying or that it DOES NOT MATTER!
Unfortunately, you appear to have deluded yourself, and misled the others.
"How do you pronounce the letter 'W' and write it out the way you pronounce it[?]"
We do not pronounce 'W' as 'double U' -- that's what we call the letter. We pronounce it as 'wuh' as in 'wobble' or 'world' or 'webster' [note: no phonetic type available ], or it is silent, as in 'elbow' or 'throw' or 'cow' ['cau'].
Quit while you're behind.
The question was how to pronounce the LETTER.
Not the syllables or phonemes using the letter W.
Slavery + Debt = College
Cost? Your Future Gain in all things.
Benefit? Only if you like living as a Debt Slave [strike through] Fugitive..
Ed Bernays wins again.........
we need Bubble Ben everywhere ....not just turning students into debt-slaves with no jobs to go to because the Fed has mis-directed all capital flows into worthless stock markets, worthless bankers, unproductive housing, unproductive debt-fueled consumerism and rotten Govt
maybe Ben can blow bubbles into babies nappies too, you know, buy one get one on credit
then the Wizard of Rot can control the economy cradle to grave
...just so long as it doesn't come up like everything else Bubble Ben's touched (eg. US housing, US Govt, US Banking) : dirty rotten broke
Bullcrap. until military budget and lobbying expenditures are side by side, you don't know jack about education "spending." You manage your money by managing your largest expense first. If the military "spending" were spent in education, Republicans would be yelling their heads off, and yes i want this archived in UTAH.
You don't have the term "welfare" in the headline and then "social security" and "medicare" in the content, as was shown yesterday. I contribute to my social security. Not the US government. Well known Republican crapola.
Hmmm - you may want to read the article before commenting.
Seriously? I don't think it would do any good.
I think it's a bot
I agree. Republicans are constantly going on about cutting social security and Medicare. It's ridiculous. These programs account for a TINY amount of the debt. Just do the math! Unborn children NEED to pay higher taxes to fund retirees!
Oh, so that's why they are all such gung-ho Pro-Lifers.
Don't dis pro-life. Who do you think populates the bottom of the pyramid?
Using "tiny amout of debt" and "social security" and "medicare" in the same sentence excludes you from any rational discussion.
There are three possibilities here.
1) You are a complete idiot.
2) You are completely unable to do basic math.
3) Youre nucking futs and whatever tenuous grasp on reality you have is maintained by a prescription bottle.
In what alternative mathematical universe do two programs that currently use approximately 2 of every 3 dollars received by the federal government constitute a TINY amount of the debt? That assertion isnt just dumb or misguided- its obscenely stupid.
4) ms1408 has a drier sense of humor than some.
Bullcrap. Pull out the constitution - you'll find defense in there but not medicare.
The more we spend on "education" the dumber our population gets, as evidenced by your post.
Let's face it. Kidies go to college to get laid.
Trips to Amsterdam for hash and hookers would probably be more cost effective.
Libertarians: They hate the government, they hate Israel, they hate the poor and most of all they hate education. Is this what this site has become? A bunch of no good hateful libertarians?
nah, my life of education ain't hurt me none: I can read the writing on the wall.
.
Blotsky, are you blotting again?
I'm guessing this means you are gonna re-nig, eh?
MDB - no we hate Statist toerags like you that love Govt (intervention)
Everything Govt touches turns to crap
only the deaf dumb and blind (like you) can't see it so we double-hate you for being a complete village idiot
Classic MDB. Makes me laugh almost everytime. I'd drink a beer with the dude behind the keyboard; I still suspect he's actually the antithesis of what he posts. I'd go for a round with you, too, ZG.
I'm really enjoying this Sierra Nevada; the beer selection in the ole USuckAss is among its most redeeming qualities, as I see it. Two weeks left to drink as much variety as I can; I only stop this way once every three or four years on average. That Widmer hefeweizen is pretty damn good, too. Can't get those in Asia. Any unemployed dudes want to set up an export business?
USA?
Beer?
sorry, no.
CANADA.
As a Canadian attending a graduate school in the States, a small part of me died after reading this article.
A larger part of me died after finding out you were from Canada as well.
Just lost my commenting virginity, 1st post on here ever. Sadly it was to MDB.
hey douche, I'm Libertarian, I support Israel (only democracy in the Mid East with minority representation in Parliament), I don't hate the poor, I just think people should earn their way (I've had 2 bouts of unemployment over 6 months each in the last 4 years, and I didn't bitch and moan about the rich) and I support education (but I support a decent education at a decent price for people who really want to get educated, not kids who show up, party, graduate and expect a 6 figure job).
Problem with people like you is you think you have to give shit away to show you care. I'm willing to share, but not at the butt of a gun (the government). I'll provide charity to those who show they are trying, not to everyone who simply holds out a hand expecting a buck.
We coddle far too many people these days, and we have government systems designed to coddle, not encourage active participation.
I'm so tired of Progressives. They believe "to each according to their needs" is more important than "from each according to their abilities". I prefer "If you don't work, you don't eat." Tough words for a tough world.
Well said.
Don't let million dollar shitstain get to you. He is a crack baby living in his grandmother's basement.
Go get 'em, tiger!
I prefer a little Thessalonians myself . . .
If you think people should earn their way in anything why the fuck do you support the beggars & blackmailers of Israell?!/?
I mostly agree with a lot of what you've said, but what's up with that "I support Israel" SHIT??
Milliondollarbonus, you are too fucking much. Not sure if its just winding everyone up or your own pure genius at work here.
All those student loans, all those years of school, and nobody learned the meaning of "sarcasm"?
Given your view of Libertarians, it sounds like it is time for you to seek other pastures. See you later....Not.
Once again, leveraging ones future. What could possibly go wrong?
If everybody has a college education... Whats the advantage of having one?
The richest people i know are people who dropped out of school and started a bizz that is so simple but requires manual labor.
Why take a loan besides for a house that takes more than 10 years to downpay?
Why live above your means?
It's all just a lack of confidence. A confident kid knows that if he wants something he can do it.
After your first year being employed you learn 1 big lesson: your diploma is worthless and only expirience counts.
Rule one in life: there's no such thing as "can't"
Worthless is the Diploma.
Life experiences in strength and also in weakness is priceless.
Hell I hear MSM is hiring air head pretties to give the day's weather to draw ratings over those who are actually trained or actually forecast weather.
What is best is going to Elko NV, getting a job worth 85,000 a year running a haul truck day and night.
Nothing else needed. What you will need is either earned in war via tank fixing or whatever or paid for with your sweat tears and blood. (And sometimes requires your life out there on the big road...) Issac Newton can be a real tyrannical bastard when things reach a tipping point his way.
As a recent grad with a Masters degree, I realized 3 things:
1 - Everybody had one, and most worked high-school level jobs at best
2 - Except for basics, I can't point to anything I'm doing right now that I learned in university
3 - What landed me a job and made me progress vs. my peers (however marginal that might be) are soft skills that I owe to my father more than any teacher or degree.
Good for you -- you have good perception and priorities and you will go far.
....ummmm.... read the book "Everything I needed I learned in Kindergarden"... its the simple things that are most elusive...
Good for you -- well said
And you will (Hope not...) have a moment or two in the future where you totally have to toss the stuff they taught you or programming.
And in my case by example, thank god for CAT engines and Bendix Brakes. They build em right when they were most needed.
I tried to get a job as a brain surgeon, told them the education is worth nothing, I want to just learn on the job. Didn't get a call back.
We have those. They are called Zombies.
You'd be absolutely flabbergasted by the number of healthy organs removed from humans by doctors.
I'm thinking they should develop a position whos job it is to just spraypaint the malignant organ green so the doc knows which one to safely snip out.
assembly line surgery schedules will do that.. they dont really let them keep doing the coke for long
Don't be a Donor.
I watched a Medical show recently where they cut a beating heart out of a teen boy kept alive after death until it was time to donate.
The very same day, I changed my driver's license and wife's to no Donor. We are selfish and wish to be left in peace, not chopped up like a side of beef while alive.
Maybe you will rethink once again when you are waiting for a donor's organ.
@Sudden Debt Exactly. Its the high school diploma of the 21st century. Only not even as good of quality as the ones from the '50s.
I've heard this arguement many times - "rich high school dropouts who started their own biz" - but it ignores all the poor suckers who dropped out and then just went to jail or whatever else. It also ignores all the guys who graduated and went one to make 7 figures. The only reason you don't know about that last group is because you'll never rub shoulders with them. They work in the corner office on floor 226 - they can see you but you can't see them. If you go to school and graduate, you can always opt to be a janitor. But if you drop out, you're going to have a rough time getting a corporate spot...
We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... fuck with us.
We may not rub shoulders but we sure as shit know what the fuck is going on.
And some turn to being Sheepdogs.
The Wolves are warned.
To paraphrase an old Roman proverb: "If you want to know how many spies are in your household, just count your slaves."
A 7th grader in 1895 was smarter than the typical college grad of today.....brains have shrunk like the value of the dollar
I have gone to college myself. Here I am sitting in front of a teacher twice my age with boys and girls students half my age learning material that the Teacher has committed to memory by sheer rote since securing Tenure.
Except one thing, actually two.
The boys and girls have fun and Big schools are no gun zones inviting massacres.
And yes archive this in Utah too please. The entire thread.
"archive this in Utah"...going viral in 5,4,3,2...
Duhhhh....yup!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75KERKwEQM
Excellent video. Education is an industry unto itself and the sooner we quit viewing it as an institution of benevolent public enrichment the better. Ditto for the various hundreds of little and big gubmints...industries unto themselves, principally benefitting themselves.
Welcome back!
I had " Have a lot" , on my mind! I appreciate your Understanding.
Keep this Avatar Rainman! It's You!
You looked out for me! It's my turn!
This is one of the most stupid and misleading commentaries I've ever seen.
I've taken some of those "common test of 1895" things. Did well on them, too. That's not the point.
The point is you learn based on what you need to know. Kids back then had to learn weights and measures because if you purchased something at a general store and didn't know it, you'd get ripped off badly.
You had to know grain prices, because so much of life was based on raw materials we no longer deal with on an average day.
The only thing I'd probably say "you're correct about this" on is that kids don't read today. They don't know the Classics. We've devalued language and reading to the point that it's considered not necessary to understand life. Today, kids live life completely out of context.
But I'd love to see a kid from 1895 use a computer and not be completely befuddled by the concepts they are faced with. I'm willing to bet most kids today could read and learn one single piece of classic literature faster than most kids of 1895 could learn to have the knowledge and dexterity to set up an XBox, load Madden 2012, and become proficient at it. Is it a skill? Damn right it is. It's just useful in a different way than learning to fix a wagon wheel.
I agree, I also think this myth is compounded exponentially by the amount of distracting gadgetry that pulses some sort of cold blue light at tender minds every 500 milliseconds.
Kids can digest many different stimuli quicker now than then.
That being said, we'll have people who are able to deal with many different inputs very well. As opposed to people who need long spans of conscious thought to train through long time based jobs. This bodes well for quick spur of the moment decision making. But for jobs requiring strategic planning, not so much, as the "Ow my balls!" effect is brought to bear.
I was leafing through a book that documented the life of a turn of the century furniture maker. What was interesting about the job was that almost each chair hewn from solid wood took almost 2~3 days to properly finish by hand. Before mass production, this required the carpenter adopted a different type of thought process. The other thing that stood out was the size of the guys forearms as he used an adz on a solid 3" block of oak for the seat of the chair.
I find myself completely worn out by the end of the day by reading countless articles that have conditioned my mind to digest information by the 1 page snippet. I rarely read nonfiction for leisure anymore as I no longer have the capacity to sustain prolonged sessions of factual intake. And while I can figure out electronics faster than my father, and my friends kids faster than I, that type of knowledge seems easier gained than true critical thinking learned from classics or other thoroughly fleshed out mediums of thought. Most of us know the headlines of 10-20 different news sites, but how many are truly experts in those fields?
Even executives at Yahoo and Microsoft know that technology is a useful tool that should only compliment ones' own brain, and so limit their own childrens' access until they are older.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html?pagewanted=all
I agree - technical proficiency is good - even if video games are a huge waste of time - we are evolving toward using computers to do everything, including math and reading - people who complain about technology are the same people who said people shouldn't wear glasses in the 1700's because it is messing with God's design which intended for some to have poor eyesight
trigger happy games are pretty singular but many do have some great physics and logistics .. other games like Civ V are treasure troves in content and also gametheory
in fact a year of school should just be playing Civ V ... would be incredible results
Who needs Civ V when we still have Civ IV TAM or RTW or BTS ROM? Such a rich vein of experience, history and multi-disciplinary thinking. ;]
But I know what you mean ... shoot 'em ups are for pussies. ;=))
Actually, Industry was a Revolution and exciting time. around that point in time.
The first time I saw a computer at a early teenager I said to the person holding the keys (Gaurdian of said school computer.)
"Good deal! No more papers to hand write. Just print and send to teacher's computer.
I got looks that were probably clinical assessments for committal to a mental unit.
But man oh man. A 50 pound hunk of junk reduced to Google and all things Apple without the need for Education. Just search it.
Hell you College kids copy and paste each other's stuff hoping to bury your teach with a blizzard of eye tearing tiresome boilerplate that will be vital to your success in the future.