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Infographic: Reevaluating The Costs And Benefits Of (Debt Bubble-Funded) Higher Education

Tyler Durden's picture





 

While the college debt bubble has been extensively discussed on Zero Hedge (here, here and here) and elsewhere, the reality is that without college student loans, as cheap as they may be, the vast majority of students would not be able to afford going to college, untenable (and non-dischargeable) post-graduation leverage be damned. Please ignore for a second the reflexivity of this symbiotic relationship - that college is so expensive only because college debt is so easily obtainable (and as noted here, between car loans and student debt, is the primary source of consumer debt in the past year). There is a reason why NINJA loans led to the biggest housing bubble of all time; also we wonder - in 5 years when this bubble also pops, how many congressional hearings will there be on the topic of just who allowed all these student to drown in debt that most of them would never be able to repay?

That said there are two sides to every story: on one hand students are conditioned to believe that they need college to survive in the current world (with statistics such as these floating out there: drop outs since 2002 have "cost" the nation $3.8 billion in lost income and over $700 million in lost taxes), while on the other hand, the burden of a massive debt load, even if with manageable interest expenses, leave the student burdened with principal amortization which alone has a crippling effect on the individual psychology. Is it time to reevaluate higher education? Look at this infographic from OnlineCollege, which summarizes the side effects of soaring college costs, and decide for yourselves.

Surprising Side Effects of Rising College Costs
Courtesy of: Online College News

 


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Tue, 03/20/2012 - 01:00 | Link to Comment malek
malek's picture

Ridiculous comparison.
The kid from 1895 would need to learn the very basics of mouse, keyboard etc. - but you're not letting today's kid start with learning to read?

BTW I have showed secretaries in their late 40s how to handle a mouse for the first time, as an unexpected side of my first job 20 years ago.

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 01:38 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

The point is you learn based on what you need to know.  Kids back then had to learn weights and measures because if you purchased something at a general store and didn't know it, you'd get ripped off badly.

This hasn't changed today.

You had to know grain prices, because so much of life was based on raw materials we no longer deal with on an average day.

Who doesn't? I do. These raw materials make everything we use & eat. They have a cost. That cost is paid. You even pay extra on top & need to know how much & why so you reduce how much you get ripped off.

But I'd love to see a kid from 1895 use a computer and not be completely befuddled by the concepts they are faced with

I bet many would learn it inside of 1 day.

Given what's practical, that part would be pretty clear in that day.

Given the rest that's entertainment, not serving 1895 needs of survival, its weight may be its best attribute. Door-stop.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:09 | Link to Comment pong
pong's picture

The graphic link wasn't working when I tried it.  The URL is: http://www.onlinecollege.org/rising-college-costs .

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:58 | Link to Comment Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

Me too. Thanks pong...

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:29 | Link to Comment Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

Where's ping, pong?

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:10 | Link to Comment David Wooten
David Wooten's picture

"...without college student loans, as cheap as they may be, the vast majority of students would not be able to afford going to college..."

Not true because if student loans were unobtainable then schools would have to reduce tuition, professors would have to take pay cuts, textbook writers and publishers would have to slash prices, etc.  Otherwise, schools and textbook publishers would go out of business and professors and textbook writers would lose their jobs. It is, in fact, student loans along with other government programs such as Pell grants that have driven up the cost of education much faster than the CPI.  When you give or loan someone money to buy something you do not help the recipient of the money or loan; you help the seller of whatever he buys with it.  The cash for clunkers program a few years ago had the immediate effect of raising car prices.  Get rid of the student loan program and within a few years, college costs will be affordable again.  Online schools would also help.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:32 | Link to Comment shuckster
shuckster's picture

Just like the housing bubble....

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:34 | Link to Comment twotraps
twotraps's picture

David, well done.  The simple ideas usually explain the most and that is one of them. 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:09 | Link to Comment Cow
Cow's picture

Get rid of the student loan program?  Obama just took it over!  Know why?  So he can control college education and the students. 

Don't like the govt telling you how to run your college?  No ticky No shirty.

 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:10 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

Let's hear from any architects, engineers, doctors, dentists or lawyers out there who regret financing their higher education.

(I suspect this call out will be met by a deathly silence).

 

 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:11 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Forget finances for school. Make payroll for the clinic that works for you.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:16 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

Fair comment.

Nothing worse than having to feed mouths that are lined up at your trough.

It doesn't have to be, though.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:24 | Link to Comment Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

Actually, I worked my own way through law school after paying my wife's tuition (at an expensive private medical school).

First of all, I was fortunate enough to go to an inexpensive night-school for law (tuition was only about $5k/year) and I worked full time; so I simply wrote checks.

As it is, it took me over three years in legal practice before I was making the same salary as in my previous profession. When I compare notes with my legal colleagues in government practice (who make exactly the same salary I do) I find that those who financed their law school and undergrad educations have only just now (after nearly 15 years) paid off their debts and have virtually NO SAVINGS. Despite making 6-figure salaries, they truly live paycheck to paycheck. So for all practical purposes, they are essentially starting from zero (as far as accumulating wealth) at age 40.

What many fail to recognize is that income taxes on professional salaries are nearly confiscatory; and by the time student loan payments are made, there is very little left over for savings/retirement.

My wife works with many doctors who are working extra shifts just to make ends meet.  Some of them tell her that if they had to do it all over again; they wouldn't choose medicine as a career. I know one who completed his residency with over $400k student debt from undergrad and medical school. He will likely reach the 'break-even' mark around age 42; whereupon he can actually start to make some money (at least after the government takes their cut first...) 

Bottom line: I can honestly tell you that if I hadn't been able to cover the cost of my own law school by working full-time, I wouldn't have gone. It simply wouldn't have made financial sense to finance it. I would have been better off in my previous profession without the debt.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:45 | Link to Comment Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

I can vouche for what you say, esp. among the younger grads. 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:20 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I'd bet there's no shortage of lawyers without club membership who would reconsider. As for the other professions, they happen to be useful, so if you make it to graduation, you've likely learned enough to benefit.

As for lawyers, they ain't worth a bucket of warm spit.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:08 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

Unless one happens to be very thirsty.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:28 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

I find lawyers useful.

They sprout many words and make dominant secretaries give access.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:25 | Link to Comment BliptoP3
BliptoP3's picture

Engineer - but I fiananced my education through bartending.  Many of my classmates co-oped their way through school, not many needed the loans.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:07 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

I always thought that engineers were the smartest of the bunch.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:34 | Link to Comment dolph9
dolph9's picture

The middle class professionals you mention are basically foot soldiers for the elite.  They are rewarded for their servitude with a decent home and enough money to fuel their cars and fill their bellies.  The contract is this...don't complain about debt or working conditions or organize or join unions, and you won't go to prison or be forced into the ghetto or trailer park underclass.

Alot of the people in these areas are miserable...but hey, there are always degrees of pain.  Better to be a paid slave than get shot in the head, or get pounded in the ass in prison.

There's a group which overlaps, the upper middle class.  And believe me, these people don't have debt, at least not student or auto debt.  Maybe a small mortgage which quickly gets paid off.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:17 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

You've got me rethinking my paradigm.

...not what I had in mind for the evening.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:38 | Link to Comment bag holder
bag holder's picture

I'm an engineer. I didn't learn a single thing in college. Everything I do every day I either taught myself or learned on the job. But half my paycheck goes to repay a piece of paper worth less than a Federal Reserve Note.

Oh, sorry, I'm a software engineer. We're just kids playing computer games, right?

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:35 | Link to Comment Christophe2
Christophe2's picture

Computer science is the best example of a field where you actually don't need the degree at all.  It counts for maybe 15%, it helps a bit, but basically it means practically nothing compared to experience and demonstratable skill.  More than anything, you will need to spend another 10 years studying on your own to cover most topics in depth, and in fact you never stop re-training in newer paradigms and tech.

 

=> anyone thinking of comp sci / programming / IT should just learn stuff on their own and show guts/quality in the interview.  Dat's all.

 

Best of all: you just need a computer and you can work independantly, unlike fields like biochemistry, which require millions of dollars of lab equipment, and hence absolute servitude to TPTB.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:43 | Link to Comment Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

I recruited medical and dental professionals.  The older guys don't care, they went to school when it was very cheap. The newer grads first question was, without exception, "can you pay off my student loans?"  Especially dentists. 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:41 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

Especially fellating women dentists.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:14 | Link to Comment libertus
libertus's picture

I know that I have posted this article before, but for thoes that have not read it--this bubble is going to burst and it will take a lot of higher educational institutions with it. There is no easy way to measure or reward productivity by the faculty in most universities and colleges especially if tenure is involved. The Fed loans are really killing the young and also suplimenting the pay of the tenured senior faculty. This needs to be addressed. 

http://vermont.academia.edu/RobertSkiff/Papers/1296007/Blowing_the_Last_...

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:22 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Professors better start learning how to teach in Mandarin.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:23 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

do you believe, or wish, for Freedom or something?

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:44 | Link to Comment Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

hopefully Duke

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:16 | Link to Comment Cow
Cow's picture

In the article, it says the average loan is $27k.  I've heard $23k.  It doesn't matter.  My understanding is that that figure is the current outstanding balance of the student loans, not the average of the current graduates.  Current graduates are higher.  The $23-27 figure averages all those who have paid their loans down.  This is misleading.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:20 | Link to Comment Smiley
Smiley's picture

If you have enough money to go to college you should be doing something more constructive and profitable with your time.  The value of a college education has plummeted exponentially in the past 20 years.  Nobody cares how smart some nit-wit tenured socialists say you are.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:21 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

i just like the fact that there are typos in everything these days..  all those anal bastards of yesterdecades be damned

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:25 | Link to Comment prodigious_idea
prodigious_idea's picture

36% of college students start their own business while in college?  Bullshit.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:34 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Facebook.

Heh.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:40 | Link to Comment Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Escort services?

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:26 | Link to Comment The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Student Loans as we know them are nothing more than a giant Thank You from Big Government to Big Education for all those years of keeping the flame of statism as "the solution" alive.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:31 | Link to Comment Its_the_economy...
Its_the_economy_stupid's picture

Use the bankers against themselves.

Once out of school, wait till the credit offers start rollinging in.

Refi the loans with revolving credit. Carry the load for a year. Better if the banks entice you w a year interest free.

Then, take the dive.

Worked pretty good for some I know really well.

Guess she really did get a good education, just not in school.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:23 | Link to Comment object_orient
object_orient's picture

That's a pretty good idea but a bit late. Student loans are higher, credit limits are lower, and bankruptcy qualification is harder now than several years ago. Worth a try for unemployed new grads I guess.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:32 | Link to Comment holdingontomypants
holdingontomypants's picture

Welcome to the new world my Son now that you have graduated with your high school diploma. Now this next piece of paper you are getting I just need you to sign right here so you can go on to the next leg of your educational journey. What, you want to know what your ROI is on all those zeroes on the paper? Which half of your life do you want the ROI number on? What, you are uncomfortable taking on debt just starting out in your life? Don't worry Son, you were born into debt so this is nothing new for you. Just sign right here. This is a long term loan so you will have most if not all of your life to pay it off. Job guarantee? No Son, we don't guarantee you a job after you graduate that pays you enough to pay off the loan. That is why you have all your life to pay it back. Don't worry, if you run out of life we will happily let your children pick up the remaining balance. Now doesn't that make you feel better? Why is a college education so expensive? I don't know Son, I think it has something to do with the Government and something about greed. You will learn about those things in your life. Sign right here debt slave--err...I mean Son.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:35 | Link to Comment NumberNone
NumberNone's picture

Our past and present tax dollars built and funded the universities.  US citizens built the universities for our children.  The universities just like our government have forgotten who they are accountable to.  Now they are nothing but machines to grind profit.  They now cater to foreign students who pay a premium for their services.  They could give a fuck about students from the US unless they can write a big enough check or take a big enough loan to fund their outrageous fees. 

The rate of increase in the foreign student population outstrips that of native students. The overall post-secondary enrollment has more than tripled since 1965 (246%) while the foreign student enrollment has soared about three times as fast (719%).

UCLA had to revamp their menus because 40% of their students are now from Asia. 

Don't fucking tell me this doesn't crowd out US students.  If colleges had to compete for US students (who the universities should be catering to) they would make the fees affordable, they would spend their time grooming and recruiting our high school students for their college education, the different fields would be competing for talent just like their football programs. Professors would be recruiters.  Instead they piss on the US student and go after the big bucks the foreign nationals pay.  Now the US has a talent shortage of epic proportions in the technologies and science fields because there are not enough US citizens to fill the roles...hmm, wonder where we could go find people to fill these roles? 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-07/cognizant-says-u-s-needs-more-visas-for-foreign-tech-workers.html

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:40 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

America is dead, let the vultures feast

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 02:27 | Link to Comment greensnacks
greensnacks's picture

 

Actually, foreign nationals have accused the US of stealing their most valuable assets - their children. Some of the brightest minds flock to the US for the education. They also import their wallets when they land on our shores and pay rent, buy food, cell phones and pay for other college necessities. Many will later apply for work visas and citizenship and contribute a lot to US businesses, rather than return to their home country, where they are still trying to figure out electricity. Of course, disenfranchised, fat, lazy US citizens want some sort of affirmative action program for themselves to protect them for evil hard working foreigners. But it is true what you say about the recruiting efforts. Tax dollars are not being used to subsidies foreigner's education.

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 08:44 | Link to Comment The Wolf
The Wolf's picture

I am an evil hard working foreigner... preying on the weak in the US...

I find it most ironic that my first time into the US...via LAX... my DHS interviewer at the passport check was rather militant... young Chinese American girl who questioned why there was not a 1000 ppl who could do my job in the US... I simply told her that I was only here for 6-9 months prior to a 5 year project assignment in China... never seen a passport official clam up and punch my ticket so fast...

Having been educated in the land of Midnight Oil and AC/DC, I paid a small price (govt. loan) for my education... it still took me several years of wage garnishment to repay... I can't imagine what it is like to COMMIT to, let alone end up with a $100k education loan...

Tax dollars are being used to subsidize all education...

I am just thankful I didn't fall too hard for that hippy chick raving through Madchester in the late 80's / early 90's otherwise I could be a proud graduate of institute of underwater basket weaving, with six kids a 1973 rusted out kombi and a straggly Dude beard rolling at them pins Walter...

 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:49 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Most people who go to college shouldn't fucking be there to begin with.

I have to bring up the issue of race because it's extremely fucking pertinent. The reason it’s pertinent is because the college bubble is fueled by the same idiotic principles that spurned the housing bubble. Contrary to what you have been brainwashed into believing, all races aren’t equal, they simply are not. Furthermore, not everyone is equal. There are some people that are just fucking stupid. We don’t live in a society that recognizes that fact. We live in a society where retards have a right to go to college (as long as the idiotic tax payers continue to subsidize it)

Having a college education isn’t a right. Having a home isn’t a right. Having healthcare isn’t a right. Having food on the table isn’t a right. You know what really fucking pisses me off, is that people think these are rights, like it’s owed to them. The only thing that’s owed to you is what you fucking worked for. If you’re not worth shit, you shouldn’t get shit and that’s the basis of what the United States was founded upon. Not even that long ago people emigrated to the U.S and found themselves on Ellis Island with no food stamps, no unemployment check, no social security, no healthcare, and no home. What they did was worked, learned the language, learned the culture, and adapted. Now it’s like everything is ass back word. Now we have to cater to the underprivileged, we have to provide homes, we have to provide food, we have to provide healthcare, we have to press 2 for English on the telephone. HAVE YOU LOST YOUR FUCKING MINDS?

People wonder why our society is so fucked up. It’s no wonder when shit like being a transgender is acceptable. It’s no wonder when fucking IDIOTS are accepted into the college system, paid for by tax payers, who don’t even realize that they are fucking paying for it. If I found the person with the lowest IQ on the planet I bet you I could get him a student loan at a college and the people paying for it would be happier than a pig and shit.

Have people lost their fucking minds? Are people really that ignorant to the fact that we’re not all the same? That some people are just not acceptable for higher education?

Whatever, we're going bankrupt over shit like this and when we're paying $20 for a gallon of gasoline (while people with an IQ of 1 are attending college) I hope you fucking idiots will remember this post.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:09 | Link to Comment BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

right, so black folks caused the housing and student debt bubble... bastards.  Do you follow college sports? Anyway, when I was in college in VA the small percentage of black people there (except the athletes) struck me as a bit smarter than a lot of the spoiled suburban white kids who dropped out after a semester of keg stands.  The asians were usually the smartest, so by your logic we should not let anyone with round eyes near a university if all we're after is results.  Your argument sucks there, but this sentence earns you a lot of respect in my book:

Having a college education isn’t a right. Having a home isn’t a right. Having healthcare isn’t a right. Having food on the table isn’t a right. You know what really fucking pisses me off, is that people think these are rights, like it’s owed to them. The only thing that’s owed to you is what you fucking worked for. 

awesome, I'm getting a shirt that says that.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:20 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

Having a college education isn’t a right. Having a home isn’t a right. Having healthcare isn’t a right. Having food on the table isn’t a right.  The only thing that’s owed to you is what you fucking worked for. 

This is exactly what I keep telling my kid.

He's 10.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:26 | Link to Comment Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

That's great, just let him daydream a little.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:19 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

You bet.

Nothing like the imagination of a child, especially when its not fed a diet of television.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:27 | Link to Comment BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

thats some scary shit to say a young kid, dude.  And the arecibo reply is impressive but a hoax.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:52 | Link to Comment twotraps
twotraps's picture

bob_, BK, I'm buying you both a beer.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:16 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

The scary shit is doing the kid fine. In my mind, the sooner he figures out wtf is going on in the world, the better off he will be. I see little use in soft peddling (just about) anything.

It sure makes a dad proud to hear him talk to his his mates about facebook.

If I could figure out how they cut the ascii, I might agree with you.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:32 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Actually day dreaming and playing with manual toys with no electronics such as a wood boat on a lake (Liability anyone?)... you learned to sail where you wanted to else the wind and wave just pushed you around until you puked.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:46 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

You're a good dad.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:58 | Link to Comment twotraps
twotraps's picture

weyes1, have one as well....I have a 21 mo old girl, and I will tell her the same thing.   I will do everything in my power to have her thinking for herself.  My inlaws came from germany after the war, I love having my daughter spend time with Grandma to learn German and all the practical knowledge she can impart.  Pushing 2 for english makes me cringe, only to be outdone by the bilingual pep talk before the plane takes off for Florida.   I loved the comments from you guys, makes me smile that I'm not nuts especially after seeing the news of the kid inspected todat at O'Hare.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:29 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

A good portion of the little bit of happiness I get in life comes from ZH. It always pleases me to learn that others enjoy this place as much as I do.  You're not nuts. You're awake, and you can be proud that your daughter will be too.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:17 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

Thanks, bob.

I suspect you are too.

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 01:06 | Link to Comment malek
malek's picture

If your goal is to scare the kid (kind of hinting at you might pull the support for him), you're an asshole.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:40 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

right, so black folks caused the housing and student debt bubble

Yeah. Why don't you look at the defaults by demographic. Shit, let's take it a step further and look the UE by demographic as a percentage of the population (you can do that on your time I'm not wasting mine by posting what I already know)

You are correct in that Asians do have higher IQs than that of Whites. However, people of European heritage have a gene that obviously makes them more innovative.

-Splitting the atom

-The combustion engine

-Rocket science (and space travel in general)

-The internet

-Computers

-Flight

-Submarines

-T.V

-Radio

-Cell Phones

-The discovery of elecricity

-Light Bulbs

-CERN (colliding sub-atomic particles near the speed of light)

-Physics

-Quantum Mechanics

etc, etc, etc, I could really compile a lenghty list.

Can you name ONE thing that came out of Kenya? Or Uganda? Or Somalia? I'm talking about something other than A.I.D.S or hurricanes of course.

 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:08 | Link to Comment BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

alright, scratch the shirt. you're an idiot.  try planting crops in Uganda. Go read Guns, Germs, and Steel or any other anthropological work and learn about the rise of cultures and why they accomplished what they did. The progress of human evolution, both cultural and psychological, is based mostly on geographical and agricultural similarties across nations on a horizontal axis from each other which enables a faster spread of ideas. ie. fertile crescent.  Latitude happened to be on your side. Want to know one good thing that came from Africa? People..

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:18 | Link to Comment twotraps
twotraps's picture

no argument, back to colonial days...that entire place has been repeatedly brutalized.  Rhodesia...Really? I doubt old Cecil had any idea the name would stand this long.  Its an unfortunate combinattion of things both external and internal that keep it struggling. 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:52 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

You're just a fucking idiot.

Black people in general are ignorant.

I'm sorry if I sound insensitive, or whatever, but it's the truth. Their brains have not evolved to the extent of the Asians or Whites. 

Sorry. Evolution has proven that black people are simply incapable of advanced forms of thinking.

Call me whatever names you will. I could care less.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:57 | Link to Comment BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

 black people are simply incapable of advanced forms of thinking.

yeah, case closed on 'ol Dabolina.  Being the dumbest fuck on ZH requires something special.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:07 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Resorting to ad hominem attacks is normally what people do when they can't say anything else.

I think my point is settled.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:13 | Link to Comment BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

bob marley was black and he was pretty smart. you should be a little less dabolina and a little more marley.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:24 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

If everyone thought like Bob Marley we would all be living in a ghetto.

Think again asshole.

...think this time.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:20 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

I can refute your nonsense. There are lots of smart people of african decent. It as nothing to do with capability. It has to do with culture and philosophy. Reason is a value. You have to work for it. Many cultures outside the US (black, white and asian) do not value reason. Instead they value mysticism. Any time you value faith over reason you will have really bad outcomes.

 

Sorry Bob it isn't a genetic defect. The irony is your lack of reason puts you in the same class as the people you are degrading.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:30 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Start off by spelling "descent" correctly.

Give me some innovations that came out of Uganda, or, the Congo.

List them:

 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:39 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

Ahh attacking the person not the argument by spelling corrections. Who is using the ad hominen now, moron?

I already said both those countries have a failed philosophy.They do not value reason. They do not protect property rights hence they will not have people innovating.  

Two african american inventors off the top of my head are Eli Whitney and Percy Julian. Because you are ignorant of people of african deScent that have invented things doesn't mean they do not exist, moron.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:52 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Get fucking real.

You want to compare Eli Whitney to someone like Albert Einstein?

Show me the the black equivelent of Einstein. You can't you ignorant twat because you're brainwashed into thinking all races are equal.

White people travelled to space, and you're comparing the African version of what? A cotton gin? Are you fucking kidding me?

Get real you idiot.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:08 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

Wasn't comparing Albert Einstein to Eli Whitney, one lived 100 years earlier than the other. One lived during slavery and one lived in a free society that protected property rights. 

Not brainwashed into thinking that the races are equal or unequal, I just know that race is merely a figment of the imagination of people who are ignorant to reality and like to associate themselves with a group to try and make up for their own lack of intelligence.

The problems you ascribe to race  are cultural and philosophical problems. I do not expect you to be able to get your pea brain around this fact because again you make up for you ignorance by trying to believe that you are the superior race. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but its not about race so you are back to being just ignorant.

PS You spelled equivalent wrong ;)

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:40 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I'm shocked that you are as fucking retarted as you are.

Have you heard of the holocaust? Didn't Einstein come from Germany DURING THE time the HOLOCAUST was occuring?

YOU STUPID SHIT

Did your DUMBASS even know Einstein was German?

You think the blacks had it bad? Give me a fuckin' break.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:50 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

Wikipedia works most of the time have you ever heard of it?

"He was visiting the United States when Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933, and did not go back to Germany,"

Those black mitchondria you have must be firing on all cylinders  with all the CAPS you are using. Again bobby D the blackness is in your blood you will never escape that fact. ,you are part negro.

PS the word is retarded not retarted. They do sound the same I can see how you messed it up. 

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:07 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

The fact of the matter is that you are a complete fucktard.

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:28 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

One of the most ignorant people I have ever come across actually gave one piece of wise adivice. I will quote that for you here...

"Resorting to ad hominem attacks is normally what people do when they can't say anything else.

I think my point is settled." 

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:17 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

oh fuck the holocaust...  no one has ever lived in more dire times right?  How about outright slavery??  kinda of hard to do much lab research picking cotton

 

probably plenty of likewise brilliant white folk rotted in Siberia as well..   and nevermine the Kulaks or Native Americans..  just pigs to be slaughtered..

 

again.. fuck the holocaust

 

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:25 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Have an iphone?

Ok. Hyporcite.

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 01:00 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

total troll bait are you..... Jobs isn't Jewish/// but wait that wasn't your point right??  you have something crafty and clever up your sleave

.,.oh you must mean the slave labor...  yes, anyone that has anything to say to you must make everything from scratch.. how brilliant

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:45 | Link to Comment AndTheRest
AndTheRest's picture

It's okay Bob, when these people get their wish and whites are extirpated from the Earth humanity will plunge into an endless dark age (pun intended) from which it will never emerge.  Humanity then dies when the sun goes super nova because the white race won't be here with our intellect, vision, ingenuity, and bravery to colonize space.

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:18 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Are you talking about Detroit?

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:23 | Link to Comment Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Eli Whitney was white, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:43 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

You are correct and I was wrong. The basis of my argument still stands. 

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:20 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

What was the basis of your argument?

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:30 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

that it is not race it is philosopy and culture. Entiende ingles, muchacho?

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:40 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

BTW Your great great great great great great grandma was a negro, deal with it. You have it in your blood and will never be able to escape that fact 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:16 | Link to Comment Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

No inventions? Nigeria has done some fantastic pioneering work on internet scams!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1nKR3gYRY8

He go chop your dollar! You be da mugu- he be da masta!

 

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 01:09 | Link to Comment malek
malek's picture

Your stupidity is really on display here.

Pretty much nothing on people is true in general, while the same thing might BE true for the majority.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:15 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

Hong Kong has a ton of natural resources, right. 

Your motto "I'm smart, I read books by people who claim to know a lot. I dont think for myself because they do all the thinking for me. "

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:29 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

You truly are a mixed up individual. Correlation is not causation. These countries do not create things not because of their race. It is because of their culture. They value faith and mysticism over reason. Reason is something you have to act to gain and keep. Reason is the source of property rights and property rights and reason are the source of inovation. America was founded by men who used reason to define for the first time that mans life, liberty and pursuit of happiness were the highest values and the purpose of government was to protect these values. These men and the people of US are the source of the innovation. They happened to be white. The fact is hundreds of other white societies did not value these things and therefore did not see nearly the innovation the US has created. Your idea that it is genetic does not hold any water.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:43 | Link to Comment AndTheRest
AndTheRest's picture

I will cede my right to claim some sort of genetic heritage that includes all of the technology you list if leftists will stop claiming that I should feel guilty for slavery and segregation for that same vague genetic relation to dead people.

 

Choose wisely leftists.  Either you promulgate white guilt while simultaneously acknowledging white supremacy, or you admit that as individuals we cannot be held responsible for the actions of another.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:37 | Link to Comment Marigold
Marigold's picture

Bob , wherever you were educated they must have taught that FUCK was a verb adjective adverb and maybe even the definite article. Nice prose.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:44 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you are allowed to say that blacks can jump higher than whites..  that's pretty much it

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 04:50 | Link to Comment Antipodeus
Antipodeus's picture

bob dabolina:  "AND GET OFF MY DAMNED LAWN!!"


Tue, 03/20/2012 - 04:57 | Link to Comment Antipodeus
Antipodeus's picture

Duplicate ... my bad!  And get off my damned lawn!!

 


 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:39 | Link to Comment TN Jed
TN Jed's picture

bad graphic link.  missing / after .org  

 

http://www.onlinecollege.org/rising-college-costs

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:39 | Link to Comment Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

the best thing about this ponzi scam, is i will not have 1 ounce of guilt not sending my kids to college

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:44 | Link to Comment ZeroSpread
ZeroSpread's picture

With all due respect Tyler but the listing of those "sources" (bottom) on the actual picture is a joke. The numbers presented on the chart are bad, no doubt and rightfully so, but who knows they are not far better or far worse? Especially for an "Online College Publication", this style of citation is sad.

In case your screen is high-res too, here's the correct link to read stuff and not only look at "pretty bar graphs".

https://s3.amazonaws.com/infographics/Rising-College-Cost-800.png 

 

 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:05 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

I guess this means we're moving above ground sooner than we think.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:00 | Link to Comment WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

"Prime Minister Mario Monti in December put forward measures to limit cash transactions to payments under euro 1,000 ($1,300)"
If my local coin shop enforced that I'd have to buy 1/2 oz Au/Pt or single tubes of Ag.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:36 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Cashless? Limits?

To hell with Marios Euros, pay in dollars. 10 thousand of them.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:57 | Link to Comment BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

I have to take the other side of this.  Yes, college is filled with millions of spoiled, lazy, essentially useless burnouts who will move back in after school.  However, you can't discourage higher education.  Languages, History, Philosophy, Anthropology, Sociology, etc, these fields need smart people pursuing careers in them, and their knowledge increases public knowledge and the general good. Who wants a nation of grease monkeys?  

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:32 | Link to Comment Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

BKbroiler, even worse, who wants a nation of Elliot Spitzers or Jon Corzines?

At some point you have to toss in some performance artists just to keep the robots at bay.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:44 | Link to Comment BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

who wants a nation of Elliot Spitzers or Jon Corzines?

why, all the little Elliots and Johns, of course.  Performance artists is a good term for politicians. I'm sort of hoping the "like" function on Facebook could replace politics at some point.  "Pulp Fiction" +1  "Executive order allowing indefinite detention of american citizens" -1

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:38 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

In some cases it was better to be a robot.

Saw a screaming girl punching out mother over a case of soda when mother said no.

The whole store heard it. And the matter was soon settled. No soda for bad girl.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:19 | Link to Comment dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

No one is arguing against "higher" education. Who decides that "higher" education is restricted to college anyway? This is the internet age. College is an obsolete 19th century institution kept aloft by unfree markets and money printing.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:46 | Link to Comment riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

I will take a nation of "grease monkeys" over a nation of sociologists any day.  Being a sociologist is a  waste of a life.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:00 | Link to Comment Catullus
Catullus's picture

Idiots and incompetents need college.  They need it to fool people into hiring them.  There's a minimum level of education you have to obtain so that the person hiring you doesn't know whether you're intelligent or not. It's asymmetrical knowledge economics.  Only you know how intelligent/competent you are for a job.  The person on the other side of the table can't know that from the information that having a degree provides. But if you have 2 years of experience, the person hiring knows that at least someone else has taken a risk on you and you were at least competent enough to tread water for a couple of years. 

Here's the rub: competent people have to get degrees too.  Not having a degree suggests to me you're not smart enough to get one. There are plenty of idiots who drop out or don't get one. 

I make this suggestion to my friends who have degrees but can't find work: work temp.  I love temps.  If I don't like them, I fire them.  I give them no benefits or real responsibilities.  Everything I throw at them is a test to see if they can handle it.  And it's a great way to learn the ropes and move up.  It's a lot easier to take a chance on a person if I can fire them whenever I want.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:42 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

I was a Temp and loved it in my specific area.

When job done, bye! See you tomorrow. Even if it was 10 AM. The Hourly workers get angry when they ride the clock until 5PM.

The trick is learning how to live on 20 dollars minus deductions per day.

Bosses? Hah. I provoke them sometimes.

I remember one bitching me out because unit did not work. I told him don't yell at me, It is not my fault your company's equipment is not Par and ready at any time as you specify.

It wasn't long before the boss gave me 10 temps to see what I can do with them. Got the job done... a little interesting but.. heh...

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:13 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

The problem is that all of the Manufacturing Jobs are overseas.  We have become a Service Industry Country with all of the Jobs requiring a College Education.

It is now almost required to get any kind of Job that pays more than Minimum Wage you need a College Education.  But, at what price.

Are the young people actually having to pay to work at a Job paying more than minimum wage?  How long will they have to work to pay for the privledge of working for more than minimum wage thru College Loans?

The cost of College will eventually divide the people that have to flip hamburgers to those that will qualify for a decent job.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:23 | Link to Comment Gamma735
Gamma735's picture

The world needs more grave diggers as the elites will need more graves in which to put the common people.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:44 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

No Sir.

They are building a Above Ground Crypt where 20K urns of cremated remains may be stored.

Much easier than dropping 10 thousand dollars worth of Coffin and trade skills worth thousands more into a hole in the ground with the body.

Don't have 10 grand? There are particle board (Basically cardbord or Pine) that will do the job for 500.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:06 | Link to Comment twotraps
twotraps's picture

NumberNone brought up a huge point, thought it might be good to inject that back into the conversation.....taxpayer dollars helped build the university system, they are now multi-billion dollar entities that charge what they want in a skewed, oversubscribed situation.  In Chicago, you could live in Evanston and pay higher taxes since Northwestern University does not pay any, written into the state constitution.   They will counter that with all they do for the community bla bla bla.  Enough is enough.  Truly pathetic that everyone accepts this as their only alternative.  I wonder what economic force will materialize that will turn tuition downward?  I would absolutely love to go on about how completely full of shit several aspects of the legal school of northwestern is but it would require me to give up too many names to back up my story, trust, they are just as full of shit as ever.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:36 | Link to Comment Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

There would be a revolt if the true ROI numbers came out about certain degrees, especially high paying ones.

It's like a $150K gamble on just becoming a lawyer...and maybe not making any money out of it!

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:47 | Link to Comment gwar5
gwar5's picture

I had $125K of college debt and that was when it was still worth $125K. Paid it off OK, but it was always a worry and did delay some of life's gratifications. 

Worried more about students who racked up debts in nonproductive esoteric fields like "Womens studies". There's even way more of that now. A communist politician out there seeking re-election could no doubt find fertile ground to raise a civilian army by promising to waive all student loan debts for "Federal Service". 

 

 

 

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:22 | Link to Comment Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

heck he could get away with getting the votes for only 50% debt reduction......he may as well keep the other 50% for another time if necessary

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 21:50 | Link to Comment Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Women, in particular, got into the housing bubble. Plus they tend to get idiotic degrees, or work in the low-stress & low-pay areas in their fields. It's a man's world. Always has been...always will be. Deal with it. And practice fellatio....

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:46 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

I don't know.. my wife has been very good working with me as a team towards preparing for difficult times when it will be very easy to not think about it and just go out to eat for 50 dollars.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:38 | Link to Comment weyes1
weyes1's picture

Its happened again. This just in:

Polish police confiscate $100 million in fake US treasury bonds

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/232515.html

 

Cuz I thought you might care.

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:38 | Link to Comment StockHut
StockHut's picture

Another example of how easy credit creates inflation.

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:17 | Link to Comment cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

Too many people are going to college - and incurring substantial debt - without ever considering if the experience will make them more 'employable' and be worth the expense.   

Don't get me wrong - I think education for education's sake is a noble pursiuit BUT unless you are a trust fund baby or enrmously intelligent (enough so to be fought over by colleges) you need to be pragmatic.  Too many people are not.  Incurring signioficant debt to get a college degree when that degree offers no possibility of paying off the debt incurred is foolish.  

The 'best of the best' may be in a different league - you may be able to get a job with a Classics degree from Princeton or a Literature degree from Yale (though how much of those placements are due to family connections I can't say), but for most people, job opportunities will be a major concern after graduation.  And the reality is that the world has changed - substantially.

UIsed to be a basic accounting degree from a mid level school would get you a job in some local firnm or corporate accounting department.  Not necessarily so now.  The local accounting firm is sending tax returns to India and corporations have offshored A/P,  A//R and more. 

But the degrees that generally guarantee employment - Engineering for example - still compete against cheaper H1B visas and truth is that few students in the US have the background needed for these studies.   Too many HS grads in the US are incapable of doing basic math, completely ignorant of any kind of science and incapable of writing a coherent one page summary of anything.  You'd be appalled at the cover letters I've seen - from supposed graduates of 'average' colleges (not the low end pretend ones).  Yet at the same time employers are expecting more and more education from employees - many are willing to pay for advanced degrees.  Truth is thart  most MBA's are a joke - yet thousands are paid for by employers who want that degree in an employee.  Teachers are paid more based on the number of grad credits they accumulate - irregardless of whether those credits make them more skilled at their subject or better teachers.   But ironically, we have fewere and fewere truly skilled plumbers. electricians and mechanics.  Yet a mechanic these days needs more continuing ed than most professions as cars are more and more computerized.  Yet too many of those graduating HS today are - frankly - too dumb for those jobs.  I've seen some horrifying work by tradesmen.   Yet the 'no-brainer' factory type jobs we used to have - same old thing day in day out.... not much thinking involved - are GONE, shipped overseas.  But even 'service' jobs are beyond the skill level of many - even when the registers tell them what change to give.   Scarily, many of those people HAVE college degrees (in what I have no idea).    

If you are absolutely brilliant - among the top 1% in your field you can likely find a position in your area of study (often teaching that area of study to others) but for most studying arcane fields withj no direct applicability to employment the odds of finding a job are far worse.  And going 'further' - getting a Masters or Doctorate will not necessarily help.  You may have a PhD in Philosophy from a top tier school but may find your only chance at employment is as an Adjunct Professor at some Community College in NJ (one of the teachers my son had at a summer program).  

Sometimes a college degree is not at all necessary for a good life.  Met a steamfitter while taking an evening engineering class.  He was making more than I would make for most of my working career - had better benefiots - and was pursuing a MS because he was interested in it.   Most Tool and Die makers are more skilled than many engineering grads.

Too often college is a scam - as the 'for-profit' colleges living off federal loans have shown.  Yet Law School is another scam - rarely worth the added (and substantial) expense - this coming from a few friends who ARE attorneys (one says 'biggest mistake I ever made').  Yet we have tons of people going for MBA's and Law Degrees - that will do nothing to increase their employability- BECAUSE they cannot get a job with the degree they have...   

I was the first in my family to go to college (and only oine in my immediate family) and got a degree in Engineering BECAUSE it made me employable.  In the late 70's the economy was in the toilet so I changed from Civil Engineering (which I loved nad had worked at summers) to a more employable degree.  Yet I see tons of kids getting History degrees (weith no intentions of teaching or going to Law School oir doing anything more) or any number of other degreesa that will only take up 4 years of their life, cost them 6 figures and leave them in debt.  Many forgo less expensive colleges to incur debt going to 'better' colleges when in reality the difference they perceive is not seen by any future employer.

I see a strange dichotomy where there are too many people who lack basic skills - who are dumb as rocks - while others are overeducated in arcane areas that are not in demand while specialized areas that demand highly educated employees are lacking applicants.  Yet society indirectly sets the priorities.  One of my chikdren won a COmapny sponsored science award.  The purpose of the award was to encourage the study of science - yet in the Q&A 'discussion' period after the cerempny, one parent (a Chem PhD made a point ofd saying that HIS career did not pay appropriately and that his child would be better off in Finance).

Truth is that the US SHOULD have free - or low cost - college availabel for all WHO ARE QUALIFIED (akin to the old CCNY program) but reality is that college is not for everyone and is in fact beyond the skill set of many.  We should also be focusing on pragmatic education leading to careers where jobs exist (A bil is making a nice living as an HVAC tech, a sil is a nurse, another relative is a line tech - a mechanic for production machinery).

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:27 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

the best thing to do is learn how to learn - the gates of ignorance fall to thee

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:45 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 The " Anal Probe" is my next MAJOR LIFE decision! Mid 40's and all!

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 08:51 | Link to Comment The Wolf
The Wolf's picture

I need to find me some young girls going to college in their pajama's...

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 09:46 | Link to Comment CashCowEquity
CashCowEquity's picture

lol

bubbliscious

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 22:40 | Link to Comment neutrinoman
neutrinoman's picture

Check out this article as well:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/224333-visualizing-the-u-s-higher-educat...

His graph says it all and is a perfect example of communicating the key reality in a single picture.

It's not professors who are driving the costs at universities. It's the explosion of administration and a long list of non-teaching, non-research stuff -- the "university as four-year resort": luxury dorms, students centers, athletic centers, stadiums, and so on.

And check out Andrew Rosen's great book, change.edu. It's cheap as an eBook on Amazon. His prediction is that the for-profit higher education will displace community colleges and much of four-year residential college. Right now, it's a persecuted, beaten-down sector. But it won't be in ten or twenty years.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!