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Interactive Comparison Of GDP: America vs The World
Curious how the US, on a state by state basis, stacks up against the rest of the world, in terms of economic (and population) prowess? The following interactive graphic from the Economist should answer all questions about what state is equivalent to what country. With some surprises: as the Economist points out: "Who would have thought that, despite years of auto-industry hardship, the economy of Michigan is still the same size as Taiwan's?" On the other hand Montana Grungeville being equal to Greece in GDP - that we could live with...
h/t Peter Eller
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America is the engine of economic growth for the world, which is why what we do is so important. And what we should do is make sure we continue to be the standard for growth. Obama needs to implement jobs programs now! And Bernanke needs to back him up with a spending increase.
This just shows how much more pain will be inflicted on mankind when the US finally admits that its broke(n).
Look at the map. America is running the world's production. It is the engine. You don't move a train without an engine.
Europe has problems, and the technocrats are not doing everything they can to fix it. They have done too much austerity, and not enough spending programs. To get out of a hole you don't lie down! You dig!
America must understand it has to keep digging, if not for itself, for the sake of the world. And it can! We have the tools to continue the growth we have seen recently, however lackluster. We need a fiscal jobs program from Congress and a monetary program from the Federal Reserve Bank.
Keep digging?!.... is that a shovel ready job or what!!
Exactly my point. We need shovel ready jobs. We need to have programs that get us out of the dirt.
Leftists are nothing if they aren't good marketeers. They never say anything without a positive, superficially sound slant. You've hit the nail on head when it comes to impersonating one of the most devious in our society.
The guy is a troll, not a leftist.
He's a parodist, not a troll.
Dr Paul is an ARTIST!
I live for the day ZHedgians flip red for green and EMBRACE these hilarious muthafuckaz...
These maps represent reality: US is the Third World = THIRD-WORLD-US = TWUS
TWUS has Two Tactical WMDs: FED RESERVE & PENTA GUN (FR & PG).
TWUS FR+PG Voodoo "Strategy": Take My Garbage Paper Or I Kill You.
TWUS Dominatrix Strat-Creed: Make nothing, consume everything, pay with terror.
TWUS learned its protection racket from Rome - the original Protection Racket/Mafia.
TWUS hybrid fascist-socialist, crony-capitalist collectivism's objective: TWUS GLOBALISM.
THUS THROUGH TWUS, ARMED-"ELITE"-LOSERS BECOME WORLD HEGEMON BAMBOOZLERS.
"ISN'T IT MARVELOUS, TOTO......."
"WHERE'S KANSAS....?"
RON PAUL 2012.
Let's print up lots of Federal Reserve Notes, place them in glass bottles and bury them in abandoned mines under tons of garbage. Then people can get jobs digging up the cash. Keynes said that ought to work so I'm sure you'll agree, Dr. Krugman.
You are exaggerating Keynes to make an ill equiped point. Growth comes from production. Governemnts can promote production and firms are implemented to create it. So if you want to use an example that has merit, please be my guest. I could think of dozens.
But I want to agree with Keynes. You always tell me to do that.
"If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with bank-notes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coal-mines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and, with the help of repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is."-- John Maynard Keynes
In this case it is used as a metaphor.
Perhaps the entirety of The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money is satire.
I think we have a new MillionDollarBonus here!
Thank you good Dr Krugman, that was an epic troll. Here Ill close your tags </sarc></sarc></sarc></sarc></sarc></sarc></sarc>
+3489578934
Wow, an external tooth star washer; I love external tooth star washers. An important development during WWII by American Industry they absolutely prevent loosening of threaded fasteners under many real world conditions; unlike the almost useless "split washer" inherited from the retarded British Indiustrialists. Hoorary for star washers !
the US includes interest on credit card debt as GDP
Dollar size of GDP does not equal amount of goods produced in comparison to the 70's and 80's due to inflation.
Someone should make an angry bears normal video explaining this.
I'd be more interested in seeing per capita GDP.
Agreed. But even more broadly, GDP is almost completely useless as a measure of wealth production. If we were to borrow $10T and spend it on building pyramids, GDP would explode to the upside... and we'd be $10T deeper in debt, with commensurate interest payments to service.
Of course, we'd only 'owe it to ourselves' *snort*
You mean, as in the metaphor: "Paul Krugman, the brilliant economist, is like a rabid Stalinist pygmy on an acid trip"?
That's a simile.
I was, of course, speaking of metaphors only metaphorically.
A metaphor of a metaphor. Sounds like my high school education.
"It's a wonder I can think at all"
I wonder how much it would cost to dig those bottles up out of the ground ;-)
To provide equal opportunity, some garbage heaps should have bottles sticking out of the rubbish a little, to make it easier.
The answer is clearly $5 per ounce. The real question is, since these are bottles, would that be liquid ounces?
ok, that was good ;)
You've been had, dude; man up and admit it. metaphor, my ass.
Crockett, you sprang that trap beautifully.
Growth comes from production." No Growth starts with profit. No profit no reason to produce. The ability to profit has been distroyed by criminals and rents.
Can you build a better bottle cap? or would existing rents ruin your idea before it could be put into practice. The spending of credits is an effect of a broken market not a healthy one. Now its just fighting over existing rents. From patants to copyrights lasting 80 years or more all just broken market forces through moats and rents.
You cant fix these problems with money, only removeing the laws that keep these rents in place. Making every road a toll road, or adding additional taxes or debt will not solve this. Only freedom will solve the question of profit and its blooming nector of growth. Its like a large plant in a to small pot, the plant will die if its roots can not grow. adding more liquidity is pointless. It neends freedom and room to grow.
Thats why the trend has been to produce things at a loss. Its a way to avoid the rents for the startups and its a way to wait out your compitition for the large businesses. No profit no growth. Just the spending of credit untill it to runs out, and it will.
All very true I think. My question though, is whether the wealth gap would present an insurmountable barrier (cage) for those not already in the club, should this "freedom" come about... In other words, this whole free market thing works fine and dandy in an economic vacuum where the starter gun fires and everyone races for a claim... what happens when a few people get helicopters and the rest get broken ankles?
Humanity hasn't found an answer for this issue...
wow! the question of engendering sustainable economic growth has been the subject of philosophy and economics and historians and, for all I know, theologans for centuries and now here it is answered in zerohedge's comments!
Being in California, here's an example: our state government has absolutely gone out of its way to kill any form of small business through redundant and capricious regulation. So what we need here is LESS government and we need it right now.
Since CA does not have the ability to print, 2012 is going to be a very challenging year as the state takes in lower revenues, property taxes decline due to the continuing drop in both residential and commercial real estate, and more start up companies decide that Texas is a better place to set up shop.
Expecting that muni bond issues will soon begin to surface throughout our state.
Regulation should be on a sliding scale: the bigger the company the more onerous the red tape, the smaller the business the simpler the rules. IE the exact opposite of how things are today, almost anywhere.
+1T
Big companies already form smaller companies for the same reason - to avoid red tape. Ever heard of shell or holding companies?
While at the same time getting the benefit of existing regulatory responsive infrastructure...
The concept is simple though... if you want to create barriers to entry for all other businesses (and you lobby for the same), then you get to lie in the bed you made once the barriers (regulations) prove too onerous.
Of course, it would seem the profits have already been made multiple fold from the political investments...
Yes, I've heard of both collusion and fraud.
Paul Krugman has to be a parody of Krugman
Dig a ditch, fill it back up. Rinse, repeat. Everyones a millionaire!!!
Dr. Krugman, Winner of the Nobel Laureate in Economics, admired professor-academic, researcher, historian & journalist (if I left anything off that impromptu CV, please do feel free to add to it):
Can't we have our Treasury Department print a number of Federal Reserve Notes equal to that number of Federal Reserve Notes our government currently owes to its creditors (on the given assumption that The Bernank will be the buyer of last resort, if need be, of the corresponding treasury bonds tied to said printing), thereby eliminating whatever our national debt is, whether it's an honest 15.3 trillion, or more likely the case, closer to the 60 trillion+ that former U.S. Comptroller David M. Walker, and as much as the 202 trillion that Boston University Economics Professor & Former Reagan Advisor Laurence Kotlikoff, claims it is?
Kotlikoff Sees U.S. Fiscal Gap of $211 Trillion - BloombergAnd if so, why don't we?
Thank you,
An aspiring Keynesian
p.s. - If you have the time to answer this, also, it would very much be appreciated: How much should I spend stimulating our economy in preparing for a hostile extraterrestrial invasion from uranus?
Excellent, very well placed.
Krugman also was a Enron consultant, advisory board member at Enron (true), typical lib Dem and tribe member.
Wow; that's amazing. Apparently the N.Y. Times considers these good credentials. How bizarre.
... we have always been in war with Uranus, it would be your patriotic duty to buy war bonds.
But, if u want to earn the money, go 5xBearUranus ETF from GS. Pay with the Chase card ....
( Lloyd and Jamie working on the Uranus Death Star SkunkWorks has some prototypes).
Mitt Romney will save us from the ugly Uranus socialists.
Amen.
is too late!, American people has become way too lazy. Just look at cities like Detroit, 98% of niggers want to live for free, they don't want to work (they never did actually). White folks work but for no less than $30 bucks an hour. And the rich who lives at cities like Grosse Pointe make half million and up and don't want to pay a hard mexican worker $15 an hour for some decent good work...so, is late, the whole country and system is corrupt, is broke, it's fuck up.
98% unemployment? Try 24.7% in 2010 (latest figures available). Whites will work for no less than $30/hour? All those whites in fast food are doing that well? Hard working Mexicans make 15/hour? Is this average? For all work? Please quote your sources or you sound like a simple minded racist.
I wish I made $15/hour. Used to make $40 +/-, thank you NAFTA/GATT et al.
...98% of niggers want to live for free, they don't want to work (they never did actually)
98% of everyone doesn't want to work. That's not the problem. The problem is a government that allows them to live off the backs of others if they don't work.
Wow you're really an asshole. So there were no black workers on Ford, GE & Chrysler assemby lines before their jobs got shipped overseas? That's news.
Ya sure shoveling a good line of sh--. Thumbs up. Milestones
If you find yourself in a hole; keep digging. He must be retired military. That's the only place I've ever seen this kind of mental process; probably an O5.
Hi Mr Krugman, i'm so nervous to be on the air with you, please bear with me. I have a question, me and my husband are busy saving the economy by going deeper into debt and we have hit a snag. We are planning on buying new curtains for our home and i want orange curtains but my husband wants green. This is seriously causing a hinderance on our financing the American, and world economies. What do you suggest we do? Thank you, i'll hang up and listen to your answer!
When you buy curtains you stimulate the economy. Take your time and get what you want but at the end of the day you are putting an investment into the economy. This is what helps spur GDP and this is why America is important to the world's economy. Thanks for your question!
It could well be "curtains" for the world's economy one day soon.
Maybe if Romney is elected.
This year will define Obama's stay in the White House. He must continue to fill the holes that Bush left in the economy but he must show diligence and then the Fed must use its tools with assiduity too. If they don't and the GOP sits in the White House next year, it may just be curtains. Scary thought.
That sounds like a political calculation rather than an economic one. Romney appears to be sufficiently liberal to accept your sage advice. Why alienate him? Subscribing to the broken window fallacy is no reason to go burning your bridges.
Krugbaby, you have to refine your economic understanding.
If an american buys curtains made in america, it adds to the economy. If americans buy curtins made overseas then the 'boost' to the economy from those purchases are limited, temporary and, if not redressed self destructive.
If you cant get a nuanced appreciation of the contribution of consumer spending, being 70% of your GDP, then you really are in a hell of a lot of hot water
Actually the correct answer would be "Buy both the orange and the green ones and also red, blue violet, and peach for comparison.The ones you choose not to use can then go into your third self storage unit."
Mr. Krugman, There you go again! You are applying an Economics solution to an Accounting problem!
"If you currently have a negative cash flow or you want to increase positive net cash flow, the only way to do it is to assess your spending habits and adjust them as necessary."
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/08/evaluate-personal-financial-s...
?? these are the little questions marks they put after the chess moves when they report out chess matches, line by line. Very questiionable.
"Put up the curtains your husband hates. Get husband to throw chair at curtains, breaking window. Fix window, put up compromise curtains."
You idiot Krugman, you just missed a perfect chance to boost spending more than 3 fold. Now you could get al-quaida to bomb her house and provide more stimulus, but they seem kind of incompetent, so maybe you should do it yourself. Why stop at one house though? Level them all, watch spending soar.
p.s. please start with washington and NY.
Bastiat laid that to rest with his Broken Window Fallacy. That said, I'd still like to try stimulating the economy through the Broken Capitol Building Fallacy. I mean, never let a crisis go to waste.
p.s. "idiot Krugman" is redundant.
One of my good golf buds is a real left wing asshole. (So, you ask, WTF is the Knucks doing with a.) an uber left wing buddy and b.) an asshole, whcih I sahll get to in a moment when I too figure it out.) Anyhoe, he loves Paul Krugman and Tom Freidman. Like cannot wait to get his copy of the Sunday Times. I mean he's outside the grocery store before 6 a.m. along with the alkies to be the first through the door. Something seriously the fuck wrong with him. Oh, and he loves Maureen Dowd, too.
So, every time I mention Kruggie, Mooreen or Tommyflatearth, he goes all ga-ga on me, defending them to the death, because They Are Right!
So I yank his chan every chance I get, particularly when I've pressed him for the big money of the day.
Now, why him as a golf partner? Just explained it.
It's fun to exasperate uber liberals in the Winter Home of the Great Satan.
But anyway, I'll pass along the idiot Krugman being redundant.
Maybe he'll write the doctor at the Times and ask for benediction that he's been defending him, the defenseless.
Well, just goes to show what's happened with the whole Nobel Prize complex over the years.
Fascinating, in Knu's bizarro world you just described exactly why I go to Monster Truck events with a right wing loony. Well, that and the fumes...
Wait a sec, who are you trying to kid: lefty don't golf. No wonder you have so much fun with him, your pet asshole is no pinko at all, just an easy target.
Keep up the good work; maybe he'll die of a stroke as a result of a blood pressure spike; one less NYT reader; gotta start somewhere.
We have the tools to continue the growth we have seen recently,
Couldn't agree more. The U.S. certainly has the "tools" to continue the recent trajectory. You seem like one of 'em.
Yeah, right Dr. K. We need a jobs program all right. What we need first is Congress to VOLUNTARILY give up their special perks THEY VOTED FOR THEMSELVES. When you get that bunch of living high on the hog Congressional crowd to live like the rest of us, act for the people and not the 1% then they might start leading by example. Fuckers legally acting on insider information! Special health benefits and fat retirement checks as a reward for trashing the the Constitution and Bill of Rights! Get real you toadie and pedal your crapola to a more gullible crowd. There are plenty of sheeple that still think you smell sweet. I think you smell like the putrid crowd you are a mothpiece for. You will not be able to keep the game going much longer. Better save all those Fed. Reserve pieces of toilet paper to wipe your ass with because you are full of shit. Go get a real job.
How in the hell does one get out of a hole by digging it deeper?
Well, it's as if the government has discovered venipuncture. They are going to create jobs by draining the life blood out of the productive taxpayers to give to the unproductive citizens via a make work program.
why, you dig to china, of course!
If you dig deep enough, you get instantaneously killed when the trench collapses, and deficits/debts don't matter.
you could probably do a lot of things....like get some bits of wood down and make a frame or a ph into the pit so you can call a crane to lift you out or a jet pack perhaps but the one thing that shouldn't work is further digging unless you no theres a tunnel just below.
When you are in the hole you don't keep digging yourself in deeper you stop digging and climb out.
Dr Paul Krugman, recipient of the Fake Nobel Prize in Economics Award, said:
Big man, pig man, ha ha charade you are.
You well heeled big wheel, ha ha charade you are.
And when your hand is on your heart,
You're nearly a good laugh,
Almost a joker,
With your head down in the pig bin,
Saying "Keep on digging."
Pig stain on your fat chin.
What do you hope to find.
When you're down in the pig mine.
You're nearly a laugh,
You're nearly a laugh
But you're really a cry.
- Waters: Pigs (Three Different Ones)
"To get out of a hole you don't lie down! You dig!"
...................................
Yeah, let's keep digging till the fucking hole is so big that there is no way to climb out!
We cannot fix a system with too much debt by piling on more debt. When are you Keynesian azz hats going to get it?
The sooner the debt is written down/off, the sooner the world economy will begin a recovery.
If you took the government expediture portion out of the GDP calculation and the effect of social welfare programs, you would have a very different chart. I mean I could max out every one of my credit cards and make it look like I'm living the life of a millionare. The look may be impressive but under the shiny exterior the reality is that I am bankrupt and ready to collapse under the weight of my excessive debt at any time. The USA is only the engine of world economic growth in the heads of you pathetic academics that couldn't run the only lemonade stand in town on a hundred degree day.
Whereas you may not pay off your cards, the U.S. does.
The US pays off its cards with its other cards.
America has the highest standard of living in the world. It is the millionaire down the street. We may use the credit system but we have plenty of capital and resources to pay it. Look at our production above!
did he finally leave? whew!
I am "pretty sure" he is satirizing the real Dr. Krugman, but this Bearing's Sarcasm Detection Meter barely works if at all.
Of course it's sarcasm. Rather well done but without the true evil genius of the actual laureate.
For some reason, I feel like its the real Paul Krugman. I hope it is.
He sounds as idiotic...I mean genuine...yes, genuine - that's what I meant to write - as the real Dr. Krugman.
Dr. Krugman, do you concur with the highly respected Dr. Ben S. Bernanke that gold is acquired and stored by central banks for reasons of historical sentiment, and if so, would you support a petition to switch from the storage of that most barbaric relic to...say...diamonds....or shark teeth....or zhu zhu pets....or corn husks?
Sincerely,
An aspiring Keynesian
Domestically speaking, the FRN has backing as long as their goons are willing to throw people into prison if they don't pay 'their' tax.
We've gone from a gold-backed dollar, to a labour-backed dollar.
And, internationally, as long as the US' satraps in OPEC continue to demand FRNs, it will have commodity backing.
This is the REAL reason Al-Qaeda are such a threat - if they managed to spark successful revolution in even a few of the OPEC states, it's curtains for the FRN (and, by extension, the entire West).
The Bank of Canada already got rid of its historical sentiment, replacing all the gold reserves with USD. Brilliant!
The American standard of living is no longer based on having the world's most productive industrial base but rather depends on dollar hegemony. That hegemony is unraveling as we type.
However, if the US is the economic powerhouse you consider it to be then Keynesian theory dictates that now is the time to scale back government spending and cheap credit. Keynesian stimulus is supposed to be reserved for a slowing or stagnant economy.
Dr. Krugman,
Has there been any thought/studies on injecting money into citizens and/or small businesses? Say 100k per person and/or 500k for small business to power the GDP growth and create job's, cap ex spending/increased production?
If so could you point me to some study material's please.
Thank you and sorry for the quick blurb, wanted to see if I could catch you before you logged off.
Yep. Starring Richard Pryor. Made a movie out of it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088850/
AMAERIC HAD A HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING BACK IN THE 60'S AND 70'S.
a TYPICAL aMERICAN FAMILY COULD AFFORD OUT OF POCKET EXPENSES PAYING CASH FOR HEALTH CARE AND COLLEGE TUITION. nOT ANYMORE.
Was the typical person in the 60's scared of losing their job and losing their home? Say you quit, got laid off or fired, what was the typical turnaround on finding a similar job for the largely-competent?
"what was the typical turnaround on finding a similar job for the largely-competent?"
................................
Less than a day in Dallas Texas. In 1967 I could be eating breakfast in a diner prior to going to my job and be approached by several managers looking for help... and for good companies; ie, Texas Instruments, Ling Timco Vaught, Bell Helicopter, Continental Can, GM, etc.
It was the norm, not the exception.
And, my pay was enough to afford a new 3 br ranch on 1/4 acre w/2 car carport and two bathrooms, new auto (paid cash), free dental, medical, eyeglasses, etc. Payments on the 3 br ranch with taxes and insurance were $104 per month using my GI Bill. All this and I still put ~ $300 per month into savings and had dinner out a couple of times per week. $300 per mo was a considerable amount of money in '67... a new Chevy Impala, loaded with accs, cost $3,100.
Yeah, things are waaaay different now!
Wall Street sent those jobs to China.
Whipsnae,,,You old fuck you.....
I remember the same dynamic, around the 128 technology belt outside of Boston. You literally could have three job offers in one week, and in various industries..Memory lane. Gone but this time for good!! No business cycle here folks..down for the count.
Kill Switch... Yeah, those times are gone and I believe for good.
'68 was the year I started buying gold pesos, gold eagles (worn out numismatically), and stashing silver dollars.
Worn gold eagles were selling for about $60 - 68 each. People thought I was foolish for buying them. Who is laughing now?
BTW, I lost them all when my canoe tipped over shooting some rapids. :)
Whipsnae,,,,
I don't think the rapids where your problem, it's tough getting laid while vertical in a canoeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
As an old friend said once,,it's a lot harder for guy to run with his pants down, than a broad with her skirt up!! Just some random wisdom..
US GDP Figures are bogus.
1. ~3.5 Trillion is federal Spending which consumes capital and resources from the private sector, except for the ~800 Billion printed by the Fed to shore up the gap between global free capital buying US treasuries and US deficit spending. Remove Federal Spend from the GDP and we are down to about $10.8 Trillion for US GDP
2. States probably spend another $1.5 Trillion (I don't have the exact figure). We need to deduct another $1.5 Trillion and now we are down to about $9.3 Trillion.
3. Now we need to deduce foreign trade deficit, That about $500 Billion, so now our GDP is down to about $8.8 Trillion in real GDP.
4. Peak Oil has been breached. Currently we holding on a production plateu, but that will end in the next 2 to 4 years, after which the world will produce less and less oil every year. 40% of Global Oil Production comes from 10 of the largest fields, Production from these 10 fields is declining about 7% a year. The majority of new production which is offeting declines is coming from tar-sands and offshore projects. But these projects will peak in the next 2 to 4 years. Fracking is close to a peak, Sooner or later Fracking will cause a major earthquake and it will be perminately banned.
5. Boomers are now hitting retirement and will stop working, stop paying into entitlements and start withdrawing entitlements. Already SS is running deficits and Medicare has been running deficits for almost a decade. Its going to get a lot worse, as won't be enough workers to support the rapidily expanding growth in entitlement recipients
6. You can't print you're way out. At best printing can kick the can down the road for another 3 to 5 years. After that, Hyper-inflation will occur destroying the value of the currency. All of the Power of the US federal gov't comes from the value of Dollar (ie Alexander Hamilton). When the dollar become worthless, the US federal gov't will no longer exist. US will break up, likely into regional nations, just like the break up of every previous falled power (Soviet Union, UK, Germany (pre-WW1 Germany, Poland, Chec.), Rome, etc
7. Energy shortages will likely trigger another global war, WW1 was about failed globalization (ie end of imperialism). This era of globalization was about out sourcing jobs, and using High Finance to maintain GDP. There are several hot spots that will serve as the catalyst for WW3: North Korea, Iran, India-Pakastan. War with any of these hot spots will almost certainly trigger a global war, much as Serba was the catalyst in WW1. I doubt civilization can survive WW3.
8. Deteriating infrastrusture. States are not investing enough just to maintain the current infrastructure. Business aren't investing in new manufacturing (even automated factories) because is cheaper to build it overseas (mostly in Asia). US businesses are investing capital and resources overseas not in the US, because its not economical to build them year. Factories are closing, and shipping the equipment overseas, or selling it for scrap. Machine tools in Ohio are been sold off at scrap value prices.
"America has the highest standard of living in the world."
But its on borrow money and time. Sooner or later something will break and the US standard of living will emulate a banana republic (if we are lucky, if not it will be like Liberia).
AGuy: +1,000,000
Caveman Krugman: -100,000,000,000,000
Great bit Aguy, all but the fracking. Fracking will save the planet with cheap energy. Just hook the tap on your sink up to a gas stove or furnace and voila! one less bill every month. A whole new trade will open up as the call for gasfitter/plumbers skyrockets.
You must have learned the truth about peak oil by watching the "Beyond The Peak" segment of Zeitgeist which starts at 2:23:43 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
No, I learned about Peak Oil in the 1980's.
Am in general agreement, but you can't just subtract all government spending from GDP to arrive at a 'truer' figure.
If the government weren't spending on schools, 'social' housing, road works, policing, the military, etc, at least some of that money would be spent by the private sector on the same services instead.
Certainly a great deal less (particularly in the case of military spending) but by how much is a moot point.
But it should not be counted as part of GDP. Much as your spending for car maintaince, food, clothing etc is not counted part of your income. Image if I counted my income + all my expenses and declare it as my income? Every dollar in gov't revenue (except for borrowerd money) comes from taxpayers. It should be treated as a deduction, not part of GDP.
Why are you concerned with GDP? If our problem is an accounting (solvency) issue, then why don't we measure revenues versus expenses? What are our tax collections versus our debt?
"Why are you concerned with GDP? If our problem is an accounting (solvency) issue"
Krugerman claim that America production was robust, Take away all of the gov't expendures and its not so rosy. In addition the Debt to GDP doubles if you remove gov't expendure as GDP 15.1/8.8 = 1.72.
"Then why don't we measure revenues versus expenses? What are our tax collections versus our debt?"
Fine with me. That even paints a bleaker picture since federal revenues are less then non-discretionary spending + interest payments on existing debt. The federal gov't is bankrupt. You have two choices: US hard defaults, and the country breaks up in months, or kick the can by printing money and the country breaks up in 3 to 7 years from now. Raising taxes won't work, as business are already fleeing the US because US tax code isn't completitve. Consumers are tapped (debt saturation) and can't carry a heavier burden. Game Over!
"America has the highest standard of living in the world. It is the millionaire down the street"
HAHAHAHA
Ani Defranco lyric :
"Take away our playstation, and we are
a third world nation"
Hi Dr Paul Krugman,
Yeah, I'm looking at these numbers and I'm thinking something must be wrong somewhere. DC produces as much wealth as Kuwait? Does anyone really think that DC produces as much real wealth as Kuwait? Perhaps if we had sound money, these numbers would be worth more than a bucket of warm spit? What say you kind sir?
The US is paying off debt? How come the debt keeps growing then???
The same reason that:
1) Our total number of unemployed goes up faster than population but published unemployment rate goes down.
2) We put a man on the moon withOUT the Department of Education but they insist on keeping the central planning mostrocity, despite our kids getting dumber and dumber than ever.
3) They claim they want people to be safe in their homes, but not allow them to defend themselves with the 2nd amendment.
?? Same little question marks as explained above. Very questionable chess move.
Sometimes Zerohedgers are so righteously angry that they miss florid examples of satire and sarcasm. For example, in a later post Dr. Krugman states "To get out of a hole you don't lie down! You dig!" Now if that is not funny, what is?
This particular Dr. Krugman is probably another avatar of Harry.
Keep it up Dr. Krugman.
I meant that you can dig your way out by eroding the side and walking out. Just like the economy people must work to get the job done.
"Just like the economy people must work to get the job done."
Doing what? Flipping Hamburgers, or working in retail? Manufacturing and Technology sectors are declining. Only jobs in low end service positions are growing. Everything else is being outsourced or downsized.
I'm sure at this point Dr Krugman would say that that is just proof that we need a large, well-capitalised entity* to invest in the high tech manufacturing sector to 'kick-start' job growth.
*ie, the government
yes, but working on WHAT?
what work can be done in America that doesnt haemmorhage dollars out of the country? there's no factories left. nothing that contributes to the real economy that wont see millions/billions of $ head offshore
ASNWERS, Krugman, we need ANSWERS, not simplistic sloganeering
Are you gonna take the plunge, erect the tariff walls, disband the fiat $US currency status , drop the value of the dollar to become export competitive and reinvigorate manufacturing industry? Because if not, there is no solution to the constant imbalance of trade - no, no, no, financial gimmickery will not substitute. Its been tied and is failing miserably.
And even if you do the above to reinvigorate your manufsacturing base, how do you succeed in a world of peak oil and global oversupply of manufactured goods?
...Are you gonna take the plunge, erect the tariff walls, disband the fiat $US currency status , drop the value of the dollar to become export competitive and reinvigorate manufacturing industry? Because if not, there is no solution to the constant imbalance of trade - no, no, no, financial gimmickery will not substitute. Its been tied and is failing miserably.
Mmm, Smoot Hawley! Worked well for Hoover & FDR, didn't it? And how about that 40% dollar devaluation in 1933? No wonder the Great Depression ended so quickly!
We're not getting back to work until we reduce government spending, regulation, and taxes. And make it impossible for the financial sector to leach off the rest of us via FRN creation.
Go away Krugman. This was a place where we were free from a sellout like you. Go sell your bullshit to the NY Times.
Best troll I've read on here in ages!
Kudos to you sir! LOL
Some righteously indignant replies may themselves be humorously intended.
I get the bit about taking out more debt to help the economy. That has worked in the past. But in the past our (consumer) debt was a low as 55% of GDP. Today it is 120% down from 130%. Are we not, as a society, at "peak debt"? You disingenuously never speak to this. Ever. How can we take on more debt? And how will we ever pay off a 15 trillion debt when our gross federal tax receipts are less than 3 trillion per year and we deficit spent over 1 trillion more than that each year? Your solution is simply an arthimetical impossibility. You tell me: how do we stop deficit spending without causing a depression, and how do we ever pay off the debt? Ever. We are done. The day we solve the riddle of the economy using your method, real interest rates wil skyrocket and then the interest expense consumes most of the grosss tax receipts.
Krugman:
You suck ass. Enough said.
Krugman:
You suck ass. Enough said.
Thank you for the wise words Dr. Krugman. In my opinion Ben Bernanke has done a wonderful job of balancing inflation against deleveraging - truly he will go down in history as a great Fed Chairman. He is a Motzart of monetization. But I agree he needs to crank up the liquidity with a turbo QE3+. And its time to get more involved with the ECB. The ECB and the Federal reserve should really be merged. Having these false divisions really hurts us. The Fed should open up a wide ranging purchase of European bonds for a Euro QE. We are all in this together.
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To whom it may concern:
Are you really The Honorable Nobel Lauriate (kinda) in Economics, Dr. Paul Krugman, one and the same who writes in the New York Times?
Or are you somebody else using his name and picture?
I'm curious that if you're not the Good Doctor, are you aware you're breaking federal law in impersonating him?
I'm also likewise curious that if you are indeed the Honorable Noble Lauriate, if you could be so kind as to explain to this august agglomeration representing some sketchy pinnacle of low life intelligencia, just why you spend any time here.
Is it because we are important enough to be recognized as a force upon whom you see it fit to bestow wisdom? One that is in dire need of correction? Do we represent some form of challenge or exestential threat to your preferred socio/economic/political prioities?
Or are you here for just "shits and grins", so to speak, in the great tradition of upper crust Americans who for centuries have amused them selves by slumming with the dregs of society in manners befitting their status, safely?
Seriously, I am incredibly interested.
You know, just attempting to understand the motivation of the human condition. I consider myself nothing more than a passive observer of such.
After all, it's not like your opinion and experience are unavailable to any ZH'ers given your prodidigous, wide ranging public profile.
Many thanks. :)
I'm sure it's a different Dr. Paul Krugman, one with a similar face.
What we actually need is big change. We need to realize this system is the path to hell, and get on a different path, a path that includes true sustainability and true democracy. Capitalism is fine, but corporatism has got to go. Just cobbling this system along further with a jobs bill is not what we need.
Quit picking on Pauly... the real Paul wouldn't respond to comments anyway.
Krugman, you rock!
You know what these Austrians don't get -- and I am a native Austrian -- it is that every dollar supposedly given to the government is not lost to the productive economy. In other words, if every dollar confiscated by the government were returned to the people, would those dollars automatically and magically transform into productive dollars?
What if they just sat in savings? Or were used to buy imports?
There's a fallacy here. It's the same with illegal file sharing. Just because I pirate a copy of "Hangover 2" doesn't mean I would EVER have bought the movie in real life. Yet movie studios count this as a 'loss' of revenue. A negative sale.
Government is the redistribution of wealth, not the destruction of wealth -- necessarily. If the government raises my taxes so that it can afford corporate tax subsidies -- well, that's my wealth being redistributed. It isn't necessarily destroyed; it's now wealth in somebody else's pockets. It *is* destroyed if I am a saver and interest rates are kept artificially low. But these are all separate instances.
I am Georgia (Austria) Your solution is the problem. DNC/RNC and the massive interventions financial, millitary, banking. and media has put the entrapenural spirt to rest. The real problem is the 1b dollar campaign financing, the mainstream media chasing advertising funds and falure to let the rotation out of the financial sector happen. The tech sector bubble burst now for any recovery at all the banking, millitary, medical and media cartels need to be broken up.. Just like the railroads and steel and oil were in the past. It's soft fashism very Orwealian (as in Homage) and Franco is winning. For the record the Keyanisanns are Franco. The devide and conqure policies (financial, millitary, banking. media) are immoral acts of violence on people. The political propaganda being pushed on the world is sickning. Last week the 200,000 job increase was 6,000(-194,000 participation rate). At that rated it will be 1500 years to half the employment rate. You had the TARP which was levered to 7.7 T to protect banks that don't do banking but profit from securitazation. Extreemly dangerious position of the Keyanisanns.. IMHO Franco(DNC/RNC kleptocrats) won exactly like Cattalona. Don't expect easy answers... or to proselytize ideas on failed policies. Mitt on bain Barry on 1b campaign exactly the same violence.
"The Rothschilds, and that class of money-lenders of whom they are the representatives and agents -- men who never think of lending a shilling to their next-door neighbors, for purposes of honest industry, unless upon the most ample security, and at the highest rate of interest -- stand ready, at all times, to lend money in unlimited amounts to those robbers and murderers, who call themselves governments, to be expended in shooting down those who do not submit quietly to being robbed and enslaved."
Quote by: Lysander Spooner(1808-1887) Political theorist, activist, abolitionist Source: "No Treason #6" (1870)
If this is the "real" clown Krugman, I am glad we have him on here. Basically, take what he says and do the opposite. You are sure to make a fortune that way. Welcome aboard Paul!
America is the engine of economic growth for the world ...blah blah blah blah ... [yawn] ... blah blah blah blah ...
Sorry Krug, you'll have to get in line behind MDB and RoboTard, they're way more entertaining :)
Dr Paul Krugman, YOU are really entertaining!!! Thank you!
dup
Uh, Montana is equivalent to Lebannon.
Damn your mad typing skills .
I also have bo staff skills, nunchuck skills... Chicks dig it.
Funny, I've got b.o. too!
And wat one would you rarther visit? Montana for me.
Agreed!
You two sure about that?
http://media.photobucket.com/image/lebanon+beaches+/Fonzy78/Kuwaiti%20Girls%20in%20Lebanon/Kuwaiti-Girls-on-Lebanon-Beaches-02.jpg
Medicinal hash??
Cough ..... I think someone meant Washington State , not Montana .
Land of Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Mudhoney, etc...you know, Grundgeville. I remember seeing all those bands in bars and tiny live venues in the late 80's and early 90's...those were the days.
Yeah based on government BS GDP numbers.
Go to real GDP and it's a whole lot different picture.
"On the other hand Montana being equal to Greece in GDP - that we could live with..."
Washington or Montana?