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Iran To Hold New "Massive" Naval Exercise Near Straits Of Hormuz, To Run Parallel With Joint US-Israel Wargame

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The selloff in crude yesterday, provoked by this Reuters article stating that Iran is ready to resume nuclear talks with the West, is now well over and the accumulation has again resumed, following (not so) stunning news that merely days after its 10 day Straits of Hormuz military exercise ended, the country is already preparing for yet another, "massive" naval exercise. As RT reports, "Iran is planning to hold new “massive” naval exercises near the strategic Strait of Hormuz within the next few weeks, the country’s Fars news agency has said, as Tehran’s tensions with the West continue to escalate following threats of new sanctions against the Islamic Republic over its controversial nuclear program." And this time the wargame comes with a twist - it will likely occur just across from a comparable drill ran jointly by the US and Israel: "The newly announced Iranian drills, codenamed The Great Prophet, may coincide with major naval exercises that Israel and the United States are planning to hold in the Persian Gulf in the near future. AP quoted on Thursday a senior Israeli military official as saying the drills would be held in the next few weeks." And since the Tonkin Gulf Resolution script is being used point by point, any lost escalation "chances" in the end of 2011 will surely be regained within days.

From RT:

Iranian Defense Minister Ahmad Vahidi was quoted in the Fars report as saying the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps was planning to conduct “its greatest naval war games” near the Straight of Hormuz in the near future.

 

The announcement came just days after the Iranian navy completed its 10-day naval exercises near the Strait of Hormuz. The drills were held after the Islamic Republic threatened to block the waterway, where an estimated 40 percent of the world's seaborne oil passes, in response to Western plans to ban oil imports from Iran. The Islamic Republic derives some 60 percent of its budget revenues from oil exports.

 

The exercises, called Austere Challenge 12, which both Israeli and U.S. officials have described as the largest-ever joint drills by the two countries, are designed to improve missile defense systems and co-operation between the U.S. and Israeli forces.

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Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:39 | 2038630 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

My War Game is bigger than yours!

 

The Great Prophet. Is this what happens when men-children with nukes take over?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:43 | 2038643 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i'm sorry. did you call them..."men children with nukes"?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:58 | 2038663 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Does it not seem like Rob Riggle's character from The Goods is now world leader?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6hI0rFZ_w8&feature=related

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:04 | 2038921 Badabing
Badabing's picture

 

Where can I get a boat like that? Perfect for summer weekends on the great south bay.

Ill definitely get a spot at Flynn’s with that thing. Excellent bug out boat!  

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/12/Iran%20boat.jpg

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:54 | 2039307 Jreb
Jreb's picture

Was thinking the same thing. Thought it would be great fun to tease Green Peace boats with in the PNW. Nice looking boat anyways. Wonder if it would sleep a family of four???

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 14:12 | 2039966 Badabing
Badabing's picture

If you don't like that one take your pick.

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=85526

 

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 15:50 | 2042484 gravedestruction
gravedestruction's picture

Don't know - but here's a closer look to help decide on procuring one...

http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-12-30T191149Z_202532918_G...

Decent looking vessel for a missile launching fishing trip.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:53 | 2038669 DogSlime
DogSlime's picture

more dangerous than "sharks with frikken lasers"?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:08 | 2038685 Mark Wilson
Mark Wilson's picture

Lol! :)

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:12 | 2038692 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

hey, DogSlime, I paid good money for those "sharks with frikken lasers" in my Evil Redoubt, don't you cheapen them

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:13 | 2038689 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"Austere Challenge 12" ??? This is not a codename worthy of "The Great Prophet"

First: I'm flabbergasted, I thought two-word codenames would be enough without numbers.

Second: did I miss Austere Challenges 1-11?

I propose we rename Austere Challenge 12 into "Humility Bush 2" - I definitely remember how Bush the Second was calling for Humility in foreign affairs.

But of course the crowd here would prefer "Nobel Price 1" - the Iranian Leadership would opt for "The Great Satan 666"

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:15 | 2038698 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Sink a couple ships and it will soon be the "Great Profit" for the ship builders and the rest of the defence industry... financed with our children's futures, assuming we win this time, which we wont.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:02 | 2039111 caconhma
caconhma's picture

It appears that Iran tells to zionists in Amarica and Israel:  "fu*k you", we are not Libya.

I must say the game becoming interesting. Iranian are doing the right things since they must closely monitor potential aggressor activities and respond immediately.

 PS

The longer America will be screwed waging zionist wars. the sooner China will get a superpower economic and military status.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:28 | 2039205 sushi
sushi's picture

The longer America will be screwed waging zionist wars.

 

 

---

But it is good for Barry O:

1) Something "happens"

2) Oil goes above $ 150 bbl

3) Global economy tanks

4) Barry blames the Great Satan. Gets himself off the hook

5) Barry has a war on his side come November

6) Barry can roll back all his defence cuts citing the Great Satan

7) Barry can proclaim his laws regarding illegal search and indefinite detention were all enacted with security of US people in mind in this form of war scenario. He demonstrates his "foresight." No one bothers to ask if his "foresight" was part of his plan.

8) Economic problems and unemployment all roll off the front pages as we get to watch the ME explode and the Great Teleprompter takes credit for the war on Great Satan.

9) Peace Prize II coming right up.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:07 | 2055721 In Fed We Trust
In Fed We Trust's picture

And the Drudge Report has this distraction fior us today.

"US denied killing Iranian Scientist with car bomb today!"

Car bomb us the distraction while ship number two moves in,

I still say the first bomb dont drop until oil is at 150.

Yes that includes night time trading too.

..........
Do you see it what happens Larry....
When you park 2 ships in the Straight of Hormel Chili?

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:12 | 2055746 In Fed We Trust
In Fed We Trust's picture

Satans last trade:

Long Oil
Short S&P

All profits, reinvested

Long Oil
Short S&P

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 19:56 | 2041087 Nexus789
Nexus789's picture

Which ones are you referring to? The Iranians have operational weapons technologies that are far in advance of the US in some vital areas...such as radar avoiding supersonic missiles (Mach 2.5+), one type of which carries a 300kg warhead, 300mph cavitating torpedoes and the most advanced passive raders in the world which are linked to some of the most advanced missile batteries. The small subs they have are ideally suited to the location and they are very quiet. 

Sure the US, without intervention from Russia and China, would prevail simply from a material perspective but it would be a very costly conflict from many dimensions. To my knowledge US warships have no defence against such fast rader defeating missles which would be launched from the backdrop of the rugged Iranian coast - hard to see them coming and the Palanx system on US ships may not have enough time to lock on as they predict a target threat against a number of criteria and one of which is a consistent reduction in range from the target - these missiles are designed to evade this.

Iran, has therefore, assumed a posture to fight a non conventional asymetrical war.

 

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 17:54 | 2056174 Mpizzie
Mpizzie's picture

LOL.  I'm not fan of American militarism, but we hear this every time we are about to go to war.  The enemy has some special weapons that will defeat us.  Every single time.

And then we beat the hell out of every conventional force we face and eventually the unconventional forces. People look at Jane's and read some articles on websites and think that we are about to lose a massive battle because people have some kind of hard-on for the USA to lose a fight.  

First, you need to determine if these super weapons are real.  While we must figure they must be, we have caught Iran numerous times posting images of weapons that do not exist.  

Second, you need to determine if they have sufficient quantities to affect an actual battle.  Just because I drove by your house in a Lamborghini kit car and honked the horn - doesn't mean it's real and I have 5 more at home. Having one demo model that you shoot for state TV does not mean you have a large enough number of them for sustained operations.  

Third, you need to determine if it actually is radar avoiding.  An Aegis destroyer is vastly different than Russian ground radar systems they have been testing these missles against.  They don't even have S-400's and have limited S-300's in the mountains, not on the ocean in a Star Craft lake boat with rocket launchers.

Fourth - We have known these exist since 2006, we have defenses.  We actually look at these things and learn.  

They just finished almost two weeks of war games - they are a month, minimum, away from another war game because they have to port, refit, resupply, debrief, retrain, then go out.  That's why we are going in - because they are gone now and the chances of a blow up are lessened.  

If the Iranians win a sea battle against the Americans, I will post a video of myself eating dogshit on Youtube and post the link here - and Tyler has my actual email and can call me out.

 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:26 | 2038735 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Austere Challenge 12 is a US shortened code name for the US economy.  The full code name is "Austerity Challenge 2012".  I think the sheeple won't get it.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 02:45 | 2057505 Kiwi Pete
Kiwi Pete's picture

How about renaming it False Flag 12? Too truthy??

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 03:06 | 2057512 prains
prains's picture

 

 

Ka mate Ka mate
It is death It is death

Ka ora Ka ora
It is life It is life
Ka mate Ka mate
It is death It is death

Ka ora Ka ora
It is life It is life

Tenei Te Tangata Puhuruhuru
This is the hairy man

Nana i tiki mai whakawhiti te ra
Who caused the sun to shine again for me

Upane Upane
Up the ladder Up the ladder

Upane Kaupane
Up to the top

Whiti te ra
The sun shines!

 

www.maori.org.nz/waiata/sound/mp3/kamate.mp3

 

 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:16 | 2038701 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

"The Great Prophet. Is this what happens when men-children with nukes take over?"

......................

Idiot-men-children... Hormuz conflict to be followed by gas rationing... To be followed by an overnite explosion of counterfeit gas rationing cards... To be followed by the imprisonment of any caught using fake ration cards on grounds that they are terrorists... To be followed by construction of more prisons in US... etc, etc, etc...

Ain't Democracy great? I'm certainly glad that the founding fathers locked in our Bill of Rights!

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:20 | 2039430 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Gas rationing for Euro-land, but maybe not for the U.S. How much of the U.S. oil comes through the Strait? Not that much if I remember. We get most of ours from Canada, Mexico, West Africa, and Venezuela I think. While it's true that oil is fungible, I'm pretty sure the U.S. would have a little talk with our Northern and Southern neighbors about who they should keep selling their oil to.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:50 | 2039560 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The Candians have already said "no pipeline, then the oil goes to China"  The Europeans have the benefit of a much lower sensitivity to the relative price of oil since the taxes are so much higher in Europe, which also gives the European States the ability to lower the oil taxes, pay a higher price for crude, and keep the drain on the consumers' wallets constant.  The US does have a "strong dollar policy" it could leverage, but then the FED would have to monetize an even greater % of GDP to make up for the export loss, and further subsidize EU bailouts in the process.  The US lacks the tax policy flexibility- except with respect to developing nations which still subsidize oil prices.  So in a bidding war between the US, EU, and China, the US holds the weak hand, since it doesn't have China's (or actually any) excess foreign exchange reserves to draw down.  We already gave the Canadians and Mexicans NAFTA in pursuit of energy security, and have drawn a line in the sand on building pipeline.  At this point the Mexicans probably think we are arming the opposition, which is only one step removed from putting US boots on Mexican ground.  If Obama tries the imperial approach, I think he is going to be laughed out door and it could blow up in his face given the foreign policy "image" he is trying to project. 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:47 | 2038833 steve.stuart
steve.stuart's picture

Everyone should have equal rights .. if Israel can have nukes why not Iran. I thought Zerohedge is for non-biased sensible people.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:01 | 2039119 Triggernometry
Triggernometry's picture

Exactly

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:39 | 2039510 RichardP
RichardP's picture

There are no non-biased sensible people - anywhere.  Everyone is biased in the direction of their own self-interest.  If all had equal rights, all would have equal access to my food and my land.  Ain't gonna happen.  Not here.  Not there.  Individuals, who value their own personal food and land, won't let it happen.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:32 | 2055840 Jack D. Ripper
Jack D. Ripper's picture

I agree! If any Afghan peasant can own an AK-47, why shouldn't I be able to own one too?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:53 | 2038863 Treason Season
Treason Season's picture

Making sure they don't miss their stop Iranian style

 

http://news.payvand.netdna-cdn.com/news/12/jan/public-hangings-Sepah-Ban...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:57 | 2038890 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Boyz.  I think we have a dance off.  Get the cardboard...we be break dancin.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:12 | 2039397 Think for yourself
Think for yourself's picture

Looks like it might get really fucking serious. Have to time-constrain your priorities more and more.
http://rt.com/usa/news/us-troops-israel-iran-257/ 

Seriouser than ever, yet it also seems so pointless - barely a wave of fear on the surface of my meditation, and then I go back in the depths of being centered. That's the beauty of it once you've gone to the absolute time constraint - living in the now. 

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:11 | 2055737 Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

I think "The Great Profit" more apt.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:37 | 2038631 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Keynesians everywhere salivating at the prospect of significant public sector spending programs.

Keynesian economics = socialism.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:46 | 2038650 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"techno--econo--geeko's" salivating even more as the prospect of a "great white naval light" leads to whole a new slew of..."thingy's." Scary if you actually think about...what did they call it? Operation False Prophet?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:20 | 2038713 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

after watching the corporal get cut off on cnn. i am inclined to believe our guys are not so gung ho anymore....

it also led me to believe, when the time comes, they will point their guns in the right direction...

the brainwashing propaganda, just like here at home has lost its magic on our soldiers.....i could be wrong.. 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:39 | 2038797 Thadeous
Thadeous's picture

You're not wrong.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:07 | 2039134 JeffB
JeffB's picture

"the brainwashing propaganda, just like here at home has lost its magic on our soldiers.....i could be wrong.. "

 

If the polls are right, and I think they are, our military strongly favors Ron Paul and his call for all wars to pass constitutional muster by being voted on by Congress rather than giving the President(s advisors?) fiat power to wage war whenever they feel the urge.

Chickenhawks like Gingrich aren't getting much support from our troops.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 13:08 | 2039669 Socratic Dog
Socratic Dog's picture

I really, really, really hope you (and the polls) are right.  It would be the only true ray of sunshine in an otherwise very bleak outlook for the US political future.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:09 | 2039136 JeffB
JeffB's picture

Oops. Duplicate. Sorry. Please delete.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:16 | 2038700 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Hmm.. so fascists aren't salivating over this oppurtunity?  You still don't know what those words you use mean, do you?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:20 | 2038712 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Pan the ist...

About your post above... The first oil tanker that is sunk in or near the Strait of Hormuz will send insurance on tankers through the roof.

Not to mention that damn few merchant marine crews will sign on for a cruise into a hot war zone.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:28 | 2038742 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Point is, they'll get to extract wealth from us to "defend us" from the fucking mess they made - the fascists.

The same cocksuckers who stir up the wars profit from them.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:40 | 2038805 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

"The same cocksuckers who stir up the wars profit from them."

..................

Of course. I assumed we all knew that. My point is; what is left of the US economy will be wrecked by one or more oil tanker sinkings... oil being fungible and likely to go the highest bidder.

If the oil supply to China is constrained significantly I doubt they will remain out of the conflict entirely.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:53 | 2039098 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

China wants in, IMO.  They need to rejigger their population imbalance.  Their one child policy has created a surplus of single dudes unable to find a wife and build a life.  Just my two cents.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:02 | 2039123 Fedaykinx
Fedaykinx's picture

a large surprlus of young men is a really bad situation, historically speaking.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:14 | 2039151 JeffB
JeffB's picture

I imagine Russia doesn't want to be a silent witness to all of this. They already warned us about intervening in Syria & went on high alert a week or so ago. They're supplying Iran with a lot of their nuclear materials. Why should they sit idly by while we attack one of their clients? Well, maybe they'll benefit from the spiking oil prices, but they're still a big wild card in all of this as well.

 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:34 | 2039492 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

It's WWIII... it's baked in, I think.  Who knows who ends up on what dance card... though it would seem natural for China and Russia to be on one side, with the US on another.  Which labels get applied to which team will be largely agreed upon after the war is over and a winner is declared.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:40 | 2039518 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

Nope, not a wild card at all.

Russia will come in firmly on China's side.  They have a strong mutual defense pact with China, and they've been waiting a long time for an opportunity like this.

Iran is China's 3rd biggest oil supplier. 

Both Russia and China have warned America (and Israel) stay out of Iran.

America invades Iran it'll go thermonuclear very quickly.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:43 | 2039250 eureka
eureka's picture

Escape - Yeah, that's right - and that includes US Elite's corporate-military-bankster-USD-World-Reserve pseudo-individualist, Collectivist Empire Keynes-sianism a.k.a FASCISM.

Remember - only little child-men buy into the pseudo-dichotomy between left and right - whereas grown ups realize that left and right slogan'ism, symbolism and dreck seduction is synergistically employed by THE ELITE to further their fraternal networks' of individual-and-fraternal abhorent hunger for power.

Socialism+Fascism = cousin forms of Keysianism = COLLECTIVISM = ELITE CONTROL.

THE ENEMY - IS - ALWAYS - THE ELITE - IN ALL ITS FORMS.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:38 | 2038633 ABG LINE
ABG LINE's picture

Austere Challenge?  LoL!

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:39 | 2038635 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Can't we all just get along?

~Rodney King

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:43 | 2038641 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

No, we can't. The middle class still holds wealth, and this is totally unacceptable to the banker elite which controls the BIS, and hence the world's central banks.

The power grab at present is astonishing. SOPA, PIPA, NDAA, and all in the space of a few months. This isn't the thin end of the wedge, this is full blown fascist controls imposed on the population.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:52 | 2038665 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Right before our very eyes... and nobody is doing a thing to stop it.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:17 | 2038705 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

I take back everything I said before and humbly apologize.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:50 | 2038661 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"call me Francis and i'll kill ya'." Francis Sawyer, "Stripes."

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:54 | 2038671 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

And then, depression set in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peXZBKCQOV0 - 3 wonderful minutes

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:55 | 2038672 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

"Lighten up, Francis"

Sgt. Hulka

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:21 | 2038995 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Sorry peeps... Forgot the /SARC tag

That Rodney King thing used to make me laugh... I lived in Simi Valley, CA right at the time of the police officer trials...

I'll never forget in May of that year, just as the riots were happening, I was flying back from Denmark to Los Angeles & the final flightpath flew right over the area which was basically on fire... Smoke everywhere...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:07 | 2038684 Burr's 2nd Shot
Burr's 2nd Shot's picture

I get no respect.  The way my luck is running, if I was a politician, I would be honest.

~Rodney Dangerfield

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:40 | 2038636 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

And the US has changed the name of their military 'games' to "The Great Profit".

"Massive'? Twenty-nine guys in leaky bathtubs making motor boat noises with their lips. Why don't the Big Swingin' Dicks from both sides just whip them out, find a ruler, and get this charade over with?  Throw in a camel to make it interesting... 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:43 | 2038645 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Marcus Bachmann? Is that you?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:45 | 2038649 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

What gave it away? The 'swingin' dicks', the camel, or 29 guys 'motor-boatin'? Sounds like a new campaign slogan...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:50 | 2038664 DogSlime
DogSlime's picture

Swinging dicks may be the first casualty if the No Dong missiles are used :P

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:44 | 2038647 Irish66
Irish66's picture

coffee spit, thanks

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:33 | 2039231 Golden Receiver
Golden Receiver's picture

We're gonna need a micrometer.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:42 | 2038639 William Finn
William Finn's picture

Codename "Great Prophet"?  One well placed bunker buster will make it codename "Great Profit".

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:53 | 2038667 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

please step away from your x-box. you've obviously already spent far too much time playing war games.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:20 | 2038988 xela2200
xela2200's picture

Just put the malt liquor down and walk away.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:42 | 2038640 flattrader
flattrader's picture

The Strait of Hormuz sits on a fault line.  There has been volcanic island building activity as of late and recent earthquake activity.

Doesn't seem like the best bathtub for two nuclear armed boyz to be playing in right now.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:51 | 2038849 fredquimby
fredquimby's picture

M5.0 yesterday 173kms away from the Bushawhotsit nuke station.....

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:00 | 2038900 flattrader
flattrader's picture

I hope that both naval commands are paying attention.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:30 | 2039475 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Is that true? I wonder how a volcano erupting in the Strait of Hormuz would be interpreted from a religious point-of-view in the Middle East?

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:28 | 2055816 In Fed We Trust
In Fed We Trust's picture

At least we can hope that each side

Gets equal time space in the water to conduct their exercises.

I know this is war, but lets it keep it fair.

Gentlemen please keep it above the belt.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:43 | 2038642 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

All wars are expensive, the glorious ones are really expensive and the sacred ones are the most expensive.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:46 | 2038644 sulfur
sulfur's picture

just waiting to read about a chinese naval "exercise" in the persian gulf - hello ww3

its not a conspiracy theory its the real deal and its public news for quite some time this only beeing the tip of the iceberg http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/136917/matthew-kroenig/time-to-at...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:46 | 2038654 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

They won't participate. They will stay out of the conflict, as their military capacity is growing by the day.

They are not yet ready to challenge the US for world hegemony.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:09 | 2038688 sulfur
sulfur's picture

well they stated otherwise - and you might remember that chinese submarine surfacing behind an us aircrfat carrier during naval exercise without them noticing it....and they are not alone russia is with them as well and even if they might not win they are well capable of destroying the world remeber einstein saying ww4 will be fought with stones and sticks....

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:27 | 2038739 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Sulfur... Agree with most of your post but the Persian Gulf is, for the most part, too shallow for safe submarine ops.

It's the concentration of 3,300 mph missles, well hidden in caves along the cliffs of Irans shore of the Persian Gulf, that could do enormous damage.

Aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf are as vulnerable to attack by fast missles as battleships were to torpedo planes/dive bombers at Pearl Harbor.

...and, don't believe the US Navy isn't well aware of this.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:45 | 2039537 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I disagree with the whole "China and Russia are itching to start WW3" meme. China is a world power, the dominant power in Asia. The U.S.-Iran conflict in no way challenges that hegemony. Russia is a world power run by Oligarchs living the high life based on their control of their country's resources. In other words, the leadership of both countries has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. WW3 would destroy the status quo.

My question: where is the liberal, anti-war movement in the U.S. They could stop Obama's escalation in its tracks by holding mass protests and disrupting his 2012 re-election, but they are nowhere to be seen.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 14:46 | 2040107 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

"My question: where is the liberal, anti-war movement in the U.S. They could stop Obama's escalation in its tracks by holding mass protests and disrupting his 2012 re-election, but they are nowhere to be seen."

.....................................

Any protesters could be arrested by the military under NDAA... You must have a very short memory.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 17:16 | 2040616 The Heart
The Heart's picture

"My question: where is the liberal, anti-war movement in the U.S. They could stop Obama's escalation in its tracks by holding mass protests and disrupting his 2012 re-election, but they are nowhere to be seen."

Don't ya know? The demopublicans are the new war mongers and world domination flunky's for the military war industrial complex. Next year, it will switch back to the republicrats that started it all. Same old world domination and empire building shit with the accent of population reduction thrown in.

Ron Paul is unelectable and we are not going to have an election to prove that.

Nothing new here, banksters profit from the chaos they create, move along please.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:34 | 2055852 In Fed We Trust
In Fed We Trust's picture

They were all rounded up

While participating in a fake and set up prortest known as OCCUPY

That was last quarters business.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:37 | 2055874 In Fed We Trust
In Fed We Trust's picture

And its not like you can start one called

OCCUPY Iran!

They fuckin tricked us ! I should a known

Something wasn't right with Occupy.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:40 | 2038803 Debtman And Robbin
Debtman And Robbin's picture

Are you sure about that? 

I don't know wether Dong Feng 21 ASBM is ready for (Mach 10) delivery to the first U.S. carrier yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-21#DF-21D_.28CSS-5_Mod-4.29_Anti-ship_ba...

Maybe Iran has received some of them for beta testing. 

If so, that would probably not be too desirable for the USN, because "ships currently have no defense against a ballistic missile attack" (according to the USNI).

http://www.usni.org/news-and-features/chinese-kill-weapon

 

Apart from that, I generally recommend reading the "United Nations Conventions on the Law of the Sea", especially part II, section 3. 

Article 17: "Right of innocent Passage: Subject to this convention, ships of all states, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through territorial sea." According to Article 19, "passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state".  

For example, prejudicial would be "any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal state" or "any practise or exercise with weapons of any kind" and so on.

Even wikipedia says that, "to traverse the Strait, ships pass through the territorial waters of Iran and Oman under the transit passage provisions of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea".


Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:46 | 2038827 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Seizing Iranian funds and boycotting Iranian oil is, in my opinion, an act of war, since it is essentially a blockade.

Blockades have always been an act of war.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:15 | 2038969 Debtman And Robbin
Debtman And Robbin's picture

Actually, the law is more differentiated on that. 

But I basically agree to your opinion.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:59 | 2039113 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Meh... fock the law.  Who wrote it, who signed on, and for what purpose?  Though I do recognize that you did agree with him... it's war, plain and simple.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:11 | 2039185 Debtman And Robbin
Debtman And Robbin's picture

Meh agree. Fuck the law. It is written by those who are elected to do so. But the law is what governs society as it is enforced by state power. It is only fiction, created to administer the slaves. And as long as we agree to this circumstance the game will go on. Funny enough, a lot of people say "fuck the law" while whining about their constitution which is being disregarded by state power. And then there are those fuckers claiming to know the difference between law and statutes, right and priviledge and so on although it is all fiction (even according to law dictionaries). I just tend to use the term "law" instead of fiction.

Edit:seizing Iranian funds is an act of war - agree.
Boycotting Iranian oil is different though. Why would you declare not making business with a certain entity an act of war? BTW, China will buy it anyway. Maybe they are even happy that they do not have to exchange their wealth against US toilet paper units, that you have to pay 5 toilet paper units per gallon at the station and that they do not have to fuel the warmonger's non-nuclear part of the fleet.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:17 | 2039418 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Nice post.  And I don't even mind "the rule of law", I only do mind when people hide behind it as if the truth of some law is self evident because, well, it's a law.  I have the same problem with the use of language (which obviously dovetails into law quite nicely).  Law + War + Terrorism creates the murkiest of situations.  Unfortunately for us commoners, the power of the state gets to define the terms and make the laws. 

 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:28 | 2039460 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Just seeing your edit now:  I don't know if it matters if we define it as an act of war or simply recognize it as the precourser to war.  Same net effect, really.  "When goods stop crossing borders, boots do" - though perhaps that statement is a little bit of hyperbole.  Certainly the combination of seizning funds and boycotting oil makes it look like war.  Not to mention, the propaganda machine is certainly running at something close to 100%, to include an American client as the new head of the IAEA.  It's war for anyone willing to look at this with a critical eye.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:24 | 2039445 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

seizing funds, yes.

deciding not to buy their product.  um, no.  that would not be an act of war.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 15:26 | 2040227 caconhma
caconhma's picture

Yes and no.

"Seizing Iranian funds" is an act of thievery and terrorism.

"boycotting Iranian is" is a buyer choice of what and from whom to buy".  At worst, it is just an unfriendly behavour.

"Blockades have always been an act of war." This statement is perfectly correct!

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:44 | 2055910 In Fed We Trust
In Fed We Trust's picture

And why hasn't Israel done either of these?

I'll check back in 20 for the answer.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:33 | 2039486 Iwanttoknow
Iwanttoknow's picture

Escapekey,In a logical universe you may be right.Till tricky dick landed in peaking,Us had been trying to circle them.Thats why they built the silk road,through pakistan.they have aoperational port in baluchiatan.I wont rule out chinese involvement.All 21st century wars are resorce wars.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:49 | 2038652 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

why is it that nobody ever refers to Israel's nuclear program as "controversial"? You know...the nuclear program they won't admit to having and will not allow inspectors in to nor will they sign the NPT...unlike Iran...which allows inspection and is a member of the NPT?

(this is obviously a rhetorical question...)

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:53 | 2038668 zx12r
zx12r's picture

"why is it that nobody ever refers to Israel's nuclear program as "controversial"?"

 

Because Israel is not a country run by religious nutcases, high on religious fervor, bent on a nuclear holocaust for Allah?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:00 | 2038676 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

"Israel is not a country run by religious nutcases"

That is hands down the funniest shit I have read in a long long fuckin time.

You are telling me that a nation that believes they are "chosen by God" and that "God left them this land" are not religious nutcases?

Get a fuckin grip man. That DEFINES "religious nutcase".

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:08 | 2038687 UGrev
UGrev's picture

So, how far back in history do we need to go to illustrate just how god fearing America was.. and would you call that version of America "religious nutcases"?  Yeah.. thought so.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:13 | 2038697 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I'm not sure what you are trying to say but, what I can deduce from your...whatever that was...is that your inability to structure a coherent sentence does clearly indicate that you are, in fact, American.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:35 | 2039024 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

LMAO... I needed that..  Sadly, people like him cannot normally put together a coherent thought. I wouldn't be so quick to point out the lack of English skills.  It could be a far deeper rooted problem than that..

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:11 | 2038691 zx12r
zx12r's picture

This may come as a surprise to you, but most Israelis are not orthodox jews. And they actually have a democraticly elected government, not a religious dictator. Are you really so stupid as to compare Israel to Iran in terms of a threat to the region? Me thinks your alien-IQ is pretty low, and your opinions reveal that you are a juvenile, and probably a paultard.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:15 | 2038699 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

A one race democracy is NOT democracy. It's Apartheid.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:14 | 2038967 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The you can draw a big fat Apartheid/NOT democracy "line" from either Israel or Egypt all the way down through Zimbabwe and write off the whole continent as "NOT democracy".   

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:36 | 2039054 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

BINGO!!.. But why stop there?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 13:22 | 2039377 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

If I continued south, I would have run right into that bigotted, apartheid, redistributionist Julius "give me some that sweetness" Malema- and actually lost my objectivity... So I stopped myself. Besides, as far as the unthinking world is concerned all of SA's problems ended either when they freed Nelson Mandela or when they hosted the World Cup, and when greed, corruption, and the laws of unintended consequences cross the path "progress" in the wrong direction the "progressive" mind can spotaneously combust in the presence of truth...

For some reason, the fact that Evil is colorblind, escapes those who only see in black and white...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:36 | 2039503 Debtman And Robbin
Debtman And Robbin's picture

How come everyone, including you, is always referring to fucking democracy, when it is the republic that would actually prevent us from being ruled by the majority of the dumbed down sheep? Appreciate your posts though...
And yes, I know, fuck the law...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 13:24 | 2039730 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I never said America was a democracy. I know it's supposed to be a Republic...but let's face it...it's really just a kakistocracy isn't it?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:16 | 2038702 sulfur
sulfur's picture

certainly the majority of them are not but the ones controlling them are

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:25 | 2038730 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I did not compare Israel to Iran in terms of a threat to the region. there is no comparison. Israel is the only real threat to the region and in fact, the world.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:31 | 2038749 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Israel is the main threat in the region, certainly, but c'mon - 'in the world'?

I doubt the Tibetans or Taiwanese would agree.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:35 | 2038774 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Given the probable size of their nuclear arsenal and their apparent willingness (if not outright desire) to use it does, in my opinion, make them a world wide threat.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 13:07 | 2039664 BigJim
BigJim's picture

I'd forgotten 'The Samson Option'... good point.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:36 | 2038776 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Taiwan is a country created by extracting wealth from China, and Tibet was a Theocracy...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:01 | 2039118 falak pema
falak pema's picture

If you can call Buddhism theocracy...its more a secular non violent religion based on introspection. But Tibet WAS a feudal oligarchy like the Papal domains, even if their religion was more tolerant, their political nature was clear : religious oligarchy!

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:21 | 2039174 Triggernometry
Triggernometry's picture

I'm buddhist, think Tibet should be free, but I am opposed to any theocratic administration of any area, period.  Buddhism is not without stain, recall the massacres in Sri Lanka, both recently and historically. Let's not forget Buddha preached women could never attain enlightenment because they mentruate regularly, how enlightened did that make him?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:15 | 2039405 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

That specific buddhism is not secular as strict belief in reincarnation is a cornerstone of the doctrine, to believe otherwise makes you a heritic, and removing reincarnation from the doctrine makes the system null, without it, no new DL, no theocracy.  (phew) I respect the DL for being a basically good person, and I sure that he is mindful of the role reincarnation plays in the struture of society, whether or not he believes it in private (which I am almost positive he doesn't as he has a consistent and rational mind on most other topics.) 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 13:13 | 2039675 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

this just in:

the "DL" has as much to do with "Buddhism" as "tim osman" had to do with WT7:http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Contents.htm

please: I am wishing that yu not be confusing the similucra of the thing being the thing in itself with the thing which is having the nature of being the thing in itself. 

Sorry, we are wishing to be speaking the Queens' very English but are having a time of it in having to be dealing in the way of your speaking sir!*

Next time, try to edit your comment to maximize coherency your Hollowness!

*copyright acknowledgement to akak.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 15:57 | 2040318 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

:)

Thanks for helping clarify.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:37 | 2039056 danepol
danepol's picture

On cue out come the little anti-semites. Can't see the world except through hate coloured spectacles.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:19 | 2039166 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Finally somebody hits me with the "anti-semite" routine. What took you so long? You're losing your edge man. You gotta hit with the "anti-semite" thing faster. Don't let us down...we count on you for a good laugh.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:39 | 2039512 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

on cue come out the little haters! Can't see the world but through their anti-human spectacles! .....

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:54 | 2055961 In Fed We Trust
In Fed We Trust's picture

I often wonder how a people can create a word and a law that it is illegal to talk about those people?

Im polish, im not aware of any laws preventing people to talk negatively about Polish people.

I guess if there was one it would be called

"anti-polish ism"

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:32 | 2038743 BigJim
BigJim's picture

...This may come as a surprise to you, but most Israelis are not orthodox jews. And they actually have a democraticly elected government, not a religious dictator. Are you really so stupid as to compare Israel to Iran in terms of a threat to the region? Me thinks your alien-IQ is pretty low, and your opinions reveal that you are a juvenile, and probably a paultard.

Oooh! A paultard!

That's telling 'em!

But does Israel really have a 'democraticly' [sic] elected government? Let's see now... it has

• Substantial control of Gaza’s land crossings;
• Control on the ground through incursions and sporadic ground troop presence (“no-go zone”);
• Complete control of Gaza’s airspace;
• Complete control of Gaza’s territorial waters;
• Control of the Palestinian population registry (including who is a “resident” of Gaza);
• Control of tax policy and transfer of tax revenues;
• Control of the ability of the Palestinian Authority to exercise governmental functions;
• Control of the West Bank, which together with Gaza, constitute a single territorial unit.

I don't recall the Palestinians - whose lives are effectively controlled by Israel - having a vote in Israel's 'elections'. Ergo, it is not a democracy.

Whereas... the (illegal) zionist settlers do get to vote in Israel's elections. Thus, Israel can at best be described as being an apartheid state.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:51 | 2038847 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

They like to use the word "democracy". It plays well in American mainstream media. It's the definition of the word that they aren't too fond of.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:50 | 2039084 danepol
danepol's picture

Hmm ... let's see does the USA respect democracy? Control of Iraq (replacing troops with mercenaries and in effective control of oil flow), control of Afghanistan etc etc. And while we're talking, who really controls the US, the voters or the banksters? So lay off the only demoracy in the Middle East and look closer to home for lessons in democracy.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:54 | 2039304 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Reread my post. Israel is not a democracy. And even if it were, Iraq, Gaza, and the West Bank are democracies, so the much heralded 'only democracy in the middle east' tag that Israel-firsters trot out to defend all and every Israeli atrocity is patently false.

And no, The US is not a democracy either. Did the Iraqis get to vote in US elections while we were controlling their country? Do the Afghans?

When you step back and re-examine what democracy actually means - even in the dumbed-down, broadly-accepted meaning of the term - the US is not a democracy.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:35 | 2038772 msamour
msamour's picture

It would appear that zx12r is part of the JIDF. For those who don't know what it is can google it, I am certain google will give a better explanation than I could. Knowing that fact, it becomes incumbent on any self-respecting person posting on a comment board to ignore any comments posted by someone paid by the military to monitor, and post on comment boards for the purpose of executing psychological warfare.

Consider yourself put on notice mister. (Please note any further replies to this message by person subject in this message will be thoroughly ignored.)

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:42 | 2038813 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I once mentioned the JIDF to someone. They said I was a "conspiracy theorist".

I then showed them the website...and they then said I was an "anti-semite".

At that point, all I could do was laugh.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:00 | 2038905 msamour
msamour's picture

Somone once sent me invoices linking the military of a certain country to people who posts on different blogs for the purpose of psyops. I did not keep those invoices, because I did not want to be targeted by powerful organization. From my experience, there are many different institutions waging war on the web. The JIDF is but only one such institution, I shudder to think of the other ones that are unnamed...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:32 | 2039227 zx12r
zx12r's picture

Dear sweet weeping Jesus on the cross! What has happened to zerohedge? Nothing but a bunch of indoctrinated socialist kids babbling on about conspiracies and other hoo doo. It looks like the new hangout for all the little lemmings that made up the John Lennon look-alike contest, formally known as the OWS movement. JIDF? Really? Sheesh!

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:56 | 2039319 BigJim
BigJim's picture

ZHers criticising Israel are 'socialists', are they?

Are you really the best that AIPAC can come up with?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:07 | 2039362 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

It's wiser to remain silent and let all those around you believe you are stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Now pour yourself a nice tall glass of STFU and sit in the corner please.

See for yourself asshole. http://www.thejidf.org/

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:03 | 2038954 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

an just to finish up(hopefully)....

"Israelis are not orthodox jews"

glad we can all agree on something BoilerBoy.

Israelis are the gleanings of the general purging of mainstream judaism, wherein the sionist collaborationists and their 'nazi' stooges conspired to take out most of europes' orthodox jews, and send their privileged Frankist-Sabbattean spawn to a place in the middle east formerly known as Palestine, where they could pretend to be "jews" whilst practicing their satanic kabbalist racial hegomonist politics ad nauseam.

 

edit:  Huh?? All my responses on this thread are upsidedown to the time I posted them.....

Wait....that's makin sense!  Everything be upsidedown, in our post reality irreality.  Thanx Tyler(s), for makin the necessary accommodation to (ir)reality!>?!?!?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:13 | 2038696 sulfur
sulfur's picture

right israel is a country controlled by fascist zionist psychopaths I would rather sent my nukes to iran...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:20 | 2038716 zx12r
zx12r's picture

Shouldn't you two be at school getting indoctrinated?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:24 | 2038722 sulfur
sulfur's picture

lol thought thats where you are coming from you warmongering zionist freak

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:53 | 2038862 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Uhh, no. Sorry, wrong answer Mitch*!....and, therefore, yoooooooooooo

lose!~!!! The whole 66 Trillion Dollar jackpot that was your's for the taking.....it's gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

"Because Israel is not a country run by religious nutcases, high on religious fervor, bent on a nuclear holocaust for Allah?"

 

The correct answer was.....

Because Israel is a country run by religious nutcases, high on kabbalistic fervour, bent on a nuclear holocaust for Yacob Frank&Sons(o bitches)

Cue the big studio crowd sigh....OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! so close to the jackpot Mitch*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*Boilermaker got a new moniker for todays game....C'mon down, BoilBoy, n claim your prize....a brand new Oster Toaster oven, thanks for playing!

 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:31 | 2039221 ThisIsBob
ThisIsBob's picture

Because in enough parts of the United States you don't get elected without Jewish money and votes.

Just like everything else.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:39 | 2038796 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

hmm, a lot to get caught up on in this little exchange.  Maybe go one by one.

"why is it that nobody ever refers to Israel's nuclear program as "controversial"?"

Pretty much cause the "controversy" ended on November 22nd, 1963.

 

Anybody here old enuff to remember where they were that day, when "Hope" was strangulated, and "Change" there-ever-after meant 'more of the same'?!?!?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 08:47 | 2038657 zx12r
zx12r's picture

If Iran starts any confrontation, they will lose their entire naval forces, and they know it. And they'll be lucky if we stop with that. They will do nothing other than the usual "mother of all battles" bluster, as the kook islamics are known for.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:21 | 2038717 sulfur
sulfur's picture

oh you poor guy i think yu should close your account here and open one at the foreign affairs site of the cfr that certainly should fit your bill if you are a paid nonsense commenter please tell us how much we have to pay for you to stop and leave

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:23 | 2038728 zx12r
zx12r's picture

I see you haven't reached the grade yet where punctuation is covered.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:27 | 2038737 sulfur
sulfur's picture

no arguments to make your point so just start with personal insults - you must be briliant in real life discussions

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:59 | 2038897 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

This woman is reading a standard script here for sure; isreal/Amerika/Soviets/Nazi Germany/etc etc.  change the country name it still works......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl_ym4KkUA8

Any questions ??

 

 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:59 | 2038898 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Aren't you supposed to call him an "anti-semite" or some such nonsense? I thought that was your standard go-to routine...Did you get a new script?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:32 | 2038757 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Ummm, how well did the Israeli attack on Hezbollah positions in Southern Lebanon work out?

Israel lost 58 main battle tanks... even though they had the ONLY air cover in the battle.

Perhaps you should wait and see what happens before you start chalking up a win?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:16 | 2039359 Element
Element's picture

Exactly, air power and naval power are so flashy and over-rated. That's why they always have to send in the ground force meat-bags to get anything real done, and that's when the killing starts in a real war.

Israel did not want the thousands of casualties of any real battle with a motivated trained human force of opponents, so they dropped 2,000lb bombs an appartment blocks and business offices in South Beirut instead.

Gutless chicken-shits.

You either engage the enemy directy ... or you will lose anyway.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:11 | 2039390 BigJim
BigJim's picture

...Israel lost 58 main battle tanks...

Link, please. My understanding is that, while 50-something tanks were damaged, only 5 were 'lost'

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War

Or are you including previous conflicts? In which case... aren't they 'ancient history', at least in attampting to pre-determine what would happen if the IDF were engaged similarly again?

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 04:54 | 2039441 Element
Element's picture

You realise they got just inside Lebanon and were basically stopped in their tracks by return fire and could go no further without incurring very heavy losses of APCs and MBTs?

The IDF basically admitted as much at the time so they pounded the area with artillery and bombs for several days, which proved completely ineffective at reducing the anti-tank missiles, so they decided to not go ahead with armoured recons, and had to recover dozens of vehicles that were more or less knocked out of commission.

EDIT: Here's video of the battles, and of IDF tanks taking actual hits, and being destroyed.  This video admits to 48 Merkava MBTs being destroyed in the second battle shown, and an undisclosed number were destroyed during the inital battle and retreat. So the number of about 58 is in the right ball-park. What is for sure is the IDF discovered that they will loose a LOT of their tanks very quickly in a modern ground battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RzVEduKGUws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b7s5lnjXR5s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ltCxHIWj658

Israel of course recovered them, stripped rebuilt and recommisioned many of the still usable burned-out hulls but let's not pretend those tanks were not actually destroyed by Hezbollah, because they clearly were.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:12 | 2038895 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Listen, Boilmaker, only cause I like ya, let me give yu this piece of advice....

no matter how hard you work to please yur current employers, they still gonna throw you under the bus....an stiff you on payday as well.

Give it up Dood...kook islamics is just not gonna get any traction, anywhere, anytime.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!