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Iran Outlines Key Steps And Actors In A Potential Straits Of Hormuz Closure

Tyler Durden's picture




 

While the Iranian war game naval exercises have been ongoing for almost five days, or half of the projected 10, tensions in the Straits of Hormuz region have been rising culminating with today's interchange between the head of the Iranian Navy and the US 5th Fleet (which for various reasons we can not present you with a status update today). One question that remains is just what would a closure of the Straits looks like. Luckily, the Middle East Media Research Institute's blog has caught a release by an Iranian website Mashreq News, which spells out the step by step details of just how such a closure would be enacted.

From MEMRI:

In response to threats by Western countries to impose oil sanctions on Iran, the Iranian website Mashreq News, which is close to Iranian military circles, posted an article on December 15, 2011 outlining military measures that could be taken by Tehran to close the Strait of Hormuz should the regime choose to do so.

The article enumerated the forces and weapons that Iran could employ in such a military operation, including fast attack craft carrying anti-ship missiles; submarines; battleships; cruise and ballistic missiles; bombers carrying laser-, radar- and optically-guided missiles; helicopters; armed drones; hovercraft; and artillery.

It stated that despite Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei's statements that Tehran would not initiate a military confrontation but would retaliate harshly if attacked, "there is no guarantee that [Tehran] will not launch a preemptory strike on the civilian level, for instance through cyber-warfare or by means of economic pressure, including by closing the Strait of Hormuz and cutting off [this] energy lifeline for an indefinite period of time." It added, "Should additional sanctions be imposed on Iran, especially in the domain of oil export, Iran might keep [its] oil from leaving its territorial waters."

In a further threat, the article stated that Iran would in the future be able to attack the 480-km pipeline with a capacity of 2.5 million barrels/day[1] that the UAE is planning to build in order to bypass the Strait of Hormuz in order to neutralize Iran's ability to disrupt the world's oil supply: "As for the plan... to construct a [pipeline] from the UAE that will be an alternative in times of emergency in case the Hormuz Strait is closed, we should note... that the entire territory of the UAE is within range of Iran's missiles, [so Iran] will easily be able to undermine security at the opening of this [pipeline] using weapons to be discussed this report."

In accordance with Iranian doctrine, the article pointed out that these weapons would actually not be necessary because there would be suicide operations, and added that "the faith of the Iranian youth, and their eagerness to sacrifice their lives, will sap the enemies' courage."

Despite statements by Iranian government spokesmen, including Oil Minister Rostam Qasemi and Foreign Ministry spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast, that the closing of the strait is not currently on Iran's agenda,[2] Majlis National Security Committee member Pervez Sarouri said that the Iran would be conducting 10 days of naval maneuvers, called "Velayat 90," beginning December 24, 2011, to drill closing it.[3]


Satellite view of the Strait of Hormuz connecting the Persian Gulf to the Sea of Oman

Kayhan editor Hossein Shariatmadari, who is close to Khamenei, called on the regime to announce immediately that Tehran would close the strait to vessels from the U.S., Europe, Japan, or any other country participating in imposing oil sanctions on Iran.[4]

At a press conference on the subject of the Velayat 90 naval maneuvers, which commenced on December 24, Iranian Navy Commander Habibollah Sayyari said that his forces would be capable of closing the strait if asked to do so.[5]

It should be noted that Iranian officials have previously threatened to close the strait as a means of deterring Iran's neighbors and the West (see previous MEMRI reports from 2010, 2008 and 2007).[6]

The following are the main points of the Mashreq News article on closing the Strait of Hormuz.[7]

 

Fast Attack Craft

The article stated that since it first introduced fast attack craft for use in the Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988), the Iranian navy has immeasurably improved the craft's "ability to face advanced enemy combat vessels, much less cargo ships. These boats are equipped with sea radar systems; advanced electronic communication systems; sea-to-sea cruise missiles, both short-range – 25 km – and medium range; medium- and large-caliber [sic] torpedoes; and naval mines, along with traditional means of warfare – including semi-heavy machine guns, missile launchers, and shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles. These sea craft are capable of blocking the Strait [of Hormuz] for a brief or an extended period, and of facing enemy warships trying to open the route.

"In addition to their high speed and abovementioned equipment, these sea craft are highly maneuverable. Their ability to operate at night, aided by the requisite accessories, as well as in stormy weather, has been demonstrated repeatedly in recent years, in maneuvers both minor and major. Their successful record includes stopping submarines from countries beyond the [Gulf] region that aimed to cross the Strait of Hormuz, and supporting [Iranian] submarines threatened by enemy warships in the Indian Ocean... Iran has various types of naval mines, both stationary and remote controlled. This weapon [i.e. the mines] may, if necessary, be operated by Iranian boats and submarines [located at] various points in the Strait of Hormuz and the surrounding waters."

Submarines

The article continued: "The Iranian navy's acquisition of submarines... some 20 in number... has rendered it more powerful than the navies of the [other] countries in the region. Iran's submarine craft can use torpedoes, mines, and missiles, and can remain submerged for weeks in order to accomplish a mission. Apart from the Russian Kilo class submarines, the Nahang, Ghadir, and Fateh class submarines have been pre-fitted for the waters around Iran, especially the Persian Gulf... These submarines can remain stationary in the water and can evade various enemy radar and sonar systems...

"The Kilo class submarines can carry 24 mines or 18 large torpedoes, while the Fateh class submarines can carry 12 torpedoes and/or eight mines. In addition, there have been reports in the international media stating that Iran has equipped the Kilo class [submarines in its fleet] with Hoot torpedoes...

"The Ghadir class submarines can also successfully participate in the operation [to close the strait]... [These] are small submarines manned by one or several people. Known as 'wet submarines,' they are used for commando operations, laying mines, and firing torpedoes... and can operate in narrow and shallow areas."

Warships

The article stated that "Iran has various classes of missile ships, warships, and destroyers. These marine craft are capable of launching four 'Nour' anti-ship missiles, which have a range of 120-170 km, [even] over 200 km. Additionally, these warships' 114mm and 76mm guns... can threaten various [types of] ships. [Iran's] warships can [also] threaten submarines while simultaneously operating together with the rest of the [Iranian naval] force in closing the Strait of Hormuz."

Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles

It continued: "We divide Iran's missile force into two groups: cruise missiles and ballistic missiles. They possess a wide variety of ranges and destructive capabilities. Coastal launchers for Kowsar short-range missiles and for Nour and Ghadir missiles [with a range of some 200 km] have so far been displayed, and the Naser-1 medium-range missiles are launched from Qare'a triple-barrel missile launchers. These launchers are independent, meaning that if they are deployed near the coast, they could detect and identify naval targets and attack them without the need for supporting systems from [Iranian] air and naval units.



"These systems can cover most of the Strait of Hormuz if deployed and camouflaged 70 to 150 km deep into Iranian territory, or even in the Kerman province [in southeastern Iran]. The Iranian armed forces possess these systems in abundance, and they are ready for deployment."

Ballistic Missiles

The article noted: "...Thus far, three types of anti-ship ballistic missiles have been displayed in Iran: Khaleej-e Fars, Tondar, and Sejil. Khaleej-e Fars missiles, with a 300-km range and a 650-kg warhead, are designed to destroy enemy warships. The missile can be prepared for launch in a few minutes due to its use of solid fuel and advanced guidance systems. It strikes the enemy ships from above, traveling at Mach 3, reaching [the target] in a short time and at an acute angle.

"The triple-barrel launcher for these missiles provides sufficient firepower from the first launch; it increases the operational effect of the missile, while decreasing the enemy's ability to retaliate. Based on photos of the missile, it uses an electronic guidance system, which ensures its effectiveness even against the enemy's electronic warfare. The missile's speed, angle of approach, and impact from above are effective points in its modus operandi. We can estimate that the enemy's chances of intercepting it are miniscule.

"The Tondar missile, whose range is estimated by experts to be 150-250 kilometers, operates alongside the Khaleej-e Fars missiles as a short range ballistic missile... and their combined operation can significantly raise the chances of hitting the target... The [Tondar] missile can cover the Straits of Hormuz from deep inside Iranian territory. The Khaleej-e Fars missile can cover the Western Sistan-Baluchestan area, the Kerman province area, eastern and southern Fars province, and all of the Straits of Hormuz."

"The most terrifying of all Iranian missiles is the Sejil long range missile. It has commonly been considered merely a surface-to-surface missile, but the armed forces recently announced that it can also be used to destroy naval targets. Although not much is known about the missile's guidance and targeting systems, the missile has shown great accuracy in hitting a predetermined target. This missile, with a range of 2,000 km, can reach speeds of Mach 8 to Mach 12 (2,700-4,100 meters per second)... Its warhead weighs at least 500 kilograms, helping it to destroy the target. This missile can be used to cover regions beyond the Strait of Hormuz even if deployed on the northern Iranian coast, or at the most distant point in northwest Iran. It is a two-stage rocket powered by solid fuel, and reaches great speed at the end of the first stage [of launch]. It is difficult for the enemy to detect and track it during the first stage, because it uses several methods to reduce its radar signature... Thanks to its high velocity, the chance of it being hit by enemy defense [systems] is even smaller than the chance that they will hit a Khaleej-e Fars missile.

"Such missiles would be launched from deep inside Iranian territory because scattering launchers over a larger area will make it difficult for the enemy to detect them, will limit the means the enemy will be able to use to destroy them, and will also allow the launchers to be relocated and re-camouflaged.

"Although the enemy is much more likely to detect lower-velocity missiles... the combination of the use of these weapons in areas both closer and farther away from the shore and the increased number of targets... can maintain their effectiveness."

Bomber Jets

The article stated: "Iranian fighter jets can carry various types of air-to-surface missiles that can operate against naval targets, including air-to-surface missiles with optical, laser, and radar guidance; Nour and Ghadir missiles adapted for aerial use; C-801K and C-802 missiles; as well as Kowsar and Naser missiles. [Iranian] Air Force jets can carry up to five such missiles.

"Additional missiles for naval targets include: limited range TV-guided Maverick missiles; Qassad-1 and Qassad-2 optically guided bombs with a range of 30-50 kilometers (Qassad-3 bombs, with a range over 100 kilometers, will become operational soon); and Russian-made KH-25 and KH-29 missiles with laser and optical guidance, which can be mounted on Su-24, Su-25, and MiG-29 jets. Their range is 10km-30km, and they have medium destructive capabilities.

"In addition, KH-58 long-range anti-radar missiles, which can be mounted on Su-24 jets for attacks on enemy warships, will play an important role in closing the Strait of Hormuz.

"The array of missiles and bombs with varying ranges will assist Iran in operating remotely against enemy frigates and warships."

Helicopters

"The Shahed 285 helicopter can carry Kowsar anti-ship cruise missiles, and Mi-171 helicopters can launch Nour long range missiles, and apparently Ghadir missiles as well. These helicopters, along with Cobra attack helicopters, can threaten merchant vessels and enemy warships."

Flying Boats

"Only one model of flying boat has thus far become operational in Iran. In fact, it is a new type of plane that can land on the water, and can be equipped with anti-ship missiles. This boat can take off from the water, from various points on Iran's coast, and can operate against enemy warships together with aerial defense."

Drones

"The Iranian army drones are used for anti-ship missions. The Karar drone can carry four Kowsar missiles. Due to its speed, the drone can increase the potential energy of the missiles and extend their range. The drone has a range of some 1,000 km; it is launched by a rocket, and when it reaches the correct range, it launches the missiles. Karar drones can carry dozens of missiles to the enemy warships.

"The Karar drone is made from materials that allow it to evade radar detection and get close to enemy vessels. Nevertheless, the drone can also use missiles like Naser-1, for large areas."

Artillery and Surface-to-Sea Rocket Systems

The article also claimed that Iranian security officials several times pointed out that guided bombs are actually being used against moving naval targets. It said that the range of Iranian artillery shells is over 40 km, and that they can be used to harm or destroy enemy ships. It added that during maneuvers, Iran had successfully utilized the Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 rocket launchers against naval targets.

 

Endnotes:

[1] Reuters.com, November 21, 2011

[2] Sharq (Iran), December 15, 2011; ISNA (Iran), December 14, 2011. An article on the Mardomak website, which is operated from outside Iran, stated that the closing of the strait was an empty threat: "As long as Iran's economy is dependent upon oil, and the export of crude oil passes through the Persian Gulf, the closing of the Strait of Hormuz will remain [nothing but] a verbal threat... Even if the tension between Iran and the U.S. increases considerably, the closing of the strait will not be an option. Iran will respond to the pressure by other means." Mardomak.org, December 22, 2011.

[3] Fars (Iran), December 13, 2011. The oil minister denied reports that Iran plans to close the strait as part of the exercise. Mashreq News (Iran), December 16, 2011.

[4] Kayhan (Iran), December 13, 2011. In addition, a group of Majlis members circulated a petition defending Iran's right to close the strait in response to oil sanctions. Kayhan (Iran), December 19, 2011.

[5] Yjc.ir, December 22, 2011.

[6] See MEMRI Inquiry and Analysis No. 615, "Iran Demonstrates Its Deterrent Strength in Military Maneuvers," June 14, 2010, http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4372.htm; MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 2029, "Iran Threatens to Close Strait of Hormuz If Attacked," August 19, 2008, http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2842.htm; MEMRI Inquiry and Analysis No. 407, "Iran's Response to Western Warnings: 'First Strike,' 'Preemptive Attack,' Long-Range Ballistic Missiles, 'Asymmetric [Guerilla] Warfare,'" November 28, 2007, http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2465.htm .

[7] Mashreq News (Iran), December 15, 2011.

 

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Wed, 12/28/2011 - 19:09 | 2017432 tallen
tallen's picture

In other news today:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/151128#.TvtfitTLy5J

Iran says it chased away a Western helicopter that approached its navy war games area and did not leave until three warnings were issued.

Yesterday, a chopper which belonged to the trans-regional countries tried to approach the region of Velayat 90 exercises, but it left the area when it received a serious warning after it ignored two other warning signals of our units," Lieutenant Commander of the Iranian Navy Admiral Seyed Mahmoud Moussavi said.

Gulf of Tonkin all over again, watch some US helicopter get shot down after going into their war zones airspace and that'll be the excuse for launching a war against Iran. The US is already trying really hard to make Iran launch a war on the US by all the massive sanctions.  Get Fox news back on to herd the sheple saying all Iranians are crazy terrorists and Iran has nukes and we're set for go. It's coming folks, war with Iran. Obama will proudly proclaim that we're winning the war on terror and we'll go out killing shepards in Iran so we can get their oil. (Hey maybe he'll get re-elected!) It's super-happy-keynesianism fun times. 

It's been a while since the US has been empire building, Iraq was such a long time ago. What better way is there to start a massive spending program than launch full out war? Then we can inflate away all America's problems.

It's Time to start that oil crisis portfolio: Oil names (XOM, PBR etc), Ethanol (PEIX,BIOF), Defence Names (LMT, BA, NOC).

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 19:09 | 2017468 Charlie
Charlie's picture

Don't forget SU, CVE, CNQ.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 20:13 | 2017650 wanklord
wanklord's picture

The only way Barry & Associates (including the Zionist warmongers) can justify a war against the Islamic Republic of Iran is by staging another false flag attack on continental United States: most likely a controlled nuclear explosion (dirty bomb) targeting a major urban concentration that may kill dozens of thousands of civilians.This operation will be carried out by the CIA in partnership with Mossad and MI6 to subsequently be blamed on AlQaeda working in conjunction with elements of Iran's IRGC and Pakistan's ISI.

Besides that, Americans are a bunch of stupid animals easy to manipulate and subdue. The psychological impact of this event will elicit the brute and ignorant populace to demand a massive retaliation against the alleged perpetrators (explicitly Iran); the Obama administration will need the unconditional support of these mules in order to further their agenda.

Absent of this essential prerequisite (a false flag operation), President Soetoro won't be able to persuade US Congress to issue a formal declaration of war.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 20:57 | 2017774 Advoc8tr
Advoc8tr's picture

Detroit?  Kills 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak?

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:14 | 2017811 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

But would anyone notice? /sarcasm, really I promise

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:30 | 2018009 OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture

I believe you, Fred.  You absolutely reek of sincerity...really, I mean it!

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 03:46 | 2018411 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

The way things were at the end of 2011.

People on Internet Message Boards spoke casually of cities being destroyed, nuked. While nervously giggling "I'm kidding". Yes, Detroit, a few million people....tch tch....anyways, let it go.

Doity bumbs away!

ori

/world/

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 08:27 | 2018648 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Idiotic.

As is the claim that Iran's youth willingness to sacrifice their lives will frighten an opponent.  Recall Patton's comment on this.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 19:09 | 2020588 Bolweevil
Bolweevil's picture

tora! tora! tora!

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:52 | 2018048 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

 

This just in - thought it was relevant

 

 

WASHINGTON—In a 30-minute video released Thursday, al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri criticized the mass transportation infrastructure of the United States, claiming significant repairs and upgrades would need to be implemented before the militant group would consider destroying any roads, bridges, or railways with terrorist attacks.

Reading from a prepared statement, al-Zawahiri blasted the U.S. government for its lack of foresight and admonished its leaders for failing to provide Americans with efficient and reliable modes of public transport to reduce traffic congestion, lower carbon emissions, improve air quality, and supply suitable targets for terrorists.

"The al-Qaeda network is fully prepared to continue the jihad against the American infidels by launching deadly attacks, but your outdated and rusting transportation infrastructure needs to be completely overhauled for those strikes even to be noticed," al-Zawahiri said. "We want to turn your bridges into rubble, but if we claimed credit for making them collapse, nobody would ever believe us."

"We'd really just be doing you a favor because then you'd actually have to rebuild them," al-Zawahiri added.

The al-Qaeda commander confirmed his organization initially hoped to cripple travel in the United States by destroying its nationwide high-speed rail system, but had been shocked to discover no such thing exists. Calling it a cost-efficient, modern way of travel that would serve as a boon to small businesses and the national economy, al-Zawahiri implored U.S. officials to invest in not just one high-speed passenger train network, but many of them, so they could all be blown up simultaneously in a signature al-Qaeda attack upon the nation's major population centers.

Throughout the threatening video, the terrorist leader questioned the priorities of American politicians, asking why they would refuse to fund engineering projects that would create jobs, bombing opportunities, and new ways for the U.S. compete globally.

"It's ridiculous that the Netherlands, the world's 16th-ranked economy, is continuously investing in its infrastructure, while the No. 1 economy simply refuses to enter the 21st century," said al-Zawahiri, adding that Americans should be ashamed of having only one operational high-speed rail line, considering the Dutch have 120. "And of course, we don't want to bring the Netherlands to its knees and make its people question the unholy excesses of their way of life. No one would care if we did that."

"Also, to the Great Satan American leader Barack Obama: Investing in mass transit infrastructure would have positive, long-term effects for the environment," he added. "Stop being so shortsighted."

Al-Qaeda sources confirmed that members of terror cells living in America regularly complain about the extreme difficulty of traveling around the country and say it has prevented them from doing their jobs effectively. A plot to destroy O'Hare International Airport was reportedly abandoned after constant flight delays made coordinating an attack nearly impossible.

In addition, al-Zawahiri said a terrorist attack on O'Hare couldn't make the commercial aviation center any worse.

He also revealed the terrorist organization had wasted six months planning to take down Amtrak's regional operations before realizing that with its constant delays and malfunctions, the government-owned passenger train service "basically terrorizes itself."

"We spent countless hours on training, surveillance, and intelligence-gathering for absolutely nothing," al-Zawahiri said. "We falsely assumed that disrupting key Amtrak lines would instill fear and cause chaos throughout the nation. Unfortunately, the overall impact and limited number of casualties wouldn't even make it worth the effort."

While al-Zawahiri mainly focused on reprimanding the U.S. for not updating its mass transportation system, the al-Qaeda leader also recommended the government repair sewage treatment plants, dams, waterlines, and the power grid.

"Frankly, America is a complete mess," al-Zawahiri said. "How could we even think about cutting electricity across multiple states, leaving millions of Americans terrified in darkness, when there are brownouts all the time? And of course, we would like nothing better than to poison your lakes and rivers, but it looks like you already beat us to it."

"At least the Empire State Building is still standing," he added.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/alqaeda-claims-us-mass-transportation-infrastructu,21008/?source=patrick.net

 

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 00:45 | 2018245 strannick
strannick's picture

'Like nothing more to poison your lakes and rivers?' Wow, they really are their own worst caricatures. More holier than though ideologues ready to sacrifice civilians as collateral damage for the Cause.

The 'you beat us to it' tone of the article was hilarious though

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 10:33 | 2019002 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

So you really don't know what theonion.com is about?

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 10:52 | 2019072 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

He does - and his point is valid.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 10:51 | 2019066 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

The hipsters at The Onion really are too cool. I would like to invest in the snark index, as we are rapidly overtaking England in this precious commodity. Snark fills the belly, warms the hearth and balances budgets. It obviously does in England, anyway... 

I wonder what the cool kids really think about the export of pollution?

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/

Oh wait, giant brain Joe Biden cleared that up for us already...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ55UzAsp6M

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 00:46 | 2018247 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

The more truthful the comedy, the funnier it is! :>D

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:25 | 2018307 duckhook
duckhook's picture

LOL

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 05:09 | 2018437 Element
Element's picture

Clever stuff, laughed til I saw stars and stripes ... al-Zawahiri should just concentrate on the Washington Monument ... as it's apparently very very important ... for some completely unfathomable reasons ... that CNN and NBC never get around to explaining ... but ya just know it really matters ... alot! ... really really lots and lots

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:46 | 2018161 economics1996
economics1996's picture

Another Middle East war that drains resources and diverts attention away from China and Russia.  WTF lets just make Netanyahu the president of the United States.  Really what the fuck is the difference?

Of course if we drilled for oil in America we would not be in the Middle East, except for pirate clean up duty. 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:17 | 2018293 john39
john39's picture

why settle for president when you are already the overlord?

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:46 | 2018158 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

More copy-and-paste boilerplate from wanklord. He's been shitting out this particular screed since at least July 9, 2011.

A google search for "most likely a controlled nuclear explosion" (include the quotation marks) will reveal both how often and how far he's been flinging this particular turd.

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:40 | 2018332 Midwest Prepper
Midwest Prepper's picture

"Formal Declaration of War"????

You gotta be kidding.

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 02:19 | 2018367 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

You're just too smart by half. Got it all figured out. Nothing, absolutely nothing can ever be what it seems and no one can be what they seem and the bad guys are really the good guys who are really the bad guys acting like good guys because of the behind the scenes script...blah, blah. Your reasoning doesn't even hold up.

Both you deep conspiracists and looney leftists are getting boring these days.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 08:40 | 2018666 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

You're a fucking clown.. Freedomguy?  Really?  What the hell does that even mean?  Is that like the "Patriot Act" being anything but patriotic?  Don't worry.. You'll be counting the dead (again) from the Amercan war machine soon enough..

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 04:44 | 2018431 Rick Masters
Rick Masters's picture

A question to you and all other commentators of similar feelings of disgust towards most Americans: you seem like you want to rebel yet the people you hope to join you and rise up you call mules and have an all enveloping feeling of hatred towards most people in the country, so why not just drop out and get land in Wyoming or somewhere remote and say fuck it? Moreover, is the animosity a result of the President? Were you this angry before the last Presidential election? Because to me, your (and a lot of people of your political persuasion) seem to think Obama is the source of all our problems and caused this mess. I don't see it. Obama inherited the leadership of a country spiraling towards depression. I personally believe that out problems stem towards decades of mismanagement but I wonder if anything I say could ever change your mind even in the slightest. Seriously, I feel some of the way people call the President is fucked up. Nobody on the right gave him the slightest chance and hated him from day one. He was elected in a landslide. Don't get me wrong though I think the way many liberals disrespected President Bush was fucked up too. The thing is it seems to be open season on the First Lady. Nobody on the left ever was nasty towards Laura Bush. I think we need a fundamental change and will believe that no matter who wins. But will you? Will this board shrivel up and die if a Republican is elected. Hint: it wont cause I remember when this board wasn't so political. I been here since day one. The politicization of the comments has drove lots of people away and I think a lot of people who comment forget the site isn't a right wing sight. Nor is it left. Its apolitical mostly and just wants to shed light on darkness.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 06:57 | 2018521 pine_marten
pine_marten's picture

Obama "inherited" a marvelous opportunity which he has squandered.  His hope and change mantra was a cruel joke.  When you sit in church and listen to the preacher shout "God damn America" I guess it has an effect on one's thinking.............

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:17 | 2018769 n8dawg84
n8dawg84's picture

Great avatar.  I'm your huckleberry

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 10:56 | 2019079 Pangasius
Pangasius's picture

I'm sick of this pity for the poor president. "Nobody gives him a chance", wah, wah, wah. They elected him FUCKING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA you douchebag! What more chance do you want?!?!? The point is he squandered his CHANCE and has sent this country spiraling ever faster towards some authoratarian, Borgian, nightmare. Our freedoms are rapidly disappearing down a godamn black hole and everyone wants sympathy for FUCKING OBAMA. Get a clue asshole, OBAMA is doing fine and so is his hypocritical wife. Save your pity for the unemployed, homeless, desperate, hopeless, old,young, abused, indebted, swindled, plundered, raided, audited, lied to, decieved, impoverished, beseiged, bombed, shot, vaporized, irradiated etc. No doubt the country was going down before he got there. How dare you imply he has done anything to help us (the private sector). You may be a public sector D.C. type who is bathing in the fraudulent "wealth" created for all like parasites but rest assured out in the real world people truly are suffering and deserving of sympathy. That guy in the White House is not one of them.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 13:30 | 2019601 DionysusDevotee
DionysusDevotee's picture

Rick,

Its pretty damn simple actually.  We can't "run to Wyoming" because totalitarianism is total.  Ever hear of Emminent Domain?  "First they came for the....."  
And no, this has abso-fucking-loutly NOTHING to do with either leg (democan or republocrat) of the "two party" system.  They all work for the same damn bankocracy, as anyone with brains and will enough to operate Teh Internets can tell you.  The people that concern themselves with the Presidents Barbie acessory wife are simply engaged in a surrogate, reality television version of politics designed to divert people from actually looking behind the curtain, and anybody who is REMOTELY awake can see that.

And, no, the masses, the "I wonder who's on top of Britney Spears today!" crowd is not who we "hope will join us and rise up."  The people who have a clue about what is going on have given up on the idiocracy a long time ago.  They are the Sheeple who need to stay out of the way. 

The founders ultimately didn't give a crap about their "B issue" political differences, (they wrote letters to each other about them and worked together anyway), and they didn't wait for the sheeple to quit with their daily distractions and pull their heads out of the sand.  They knew that they were cornered by an empire and the squeeze was on.  Those are the people we hope will "rise up and join us", because they are the ones that recognize that there really is no other choice. 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 13:36 | 2019618 DionysusDevotee
DionysusDevotee's picture

And I should add, it is perfectly justifiable to be more upset at this president than the last, the increasing slide into a fascist tyranny will do that to freedom loving people.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 13:37 | 2019622 reddog
reddog's picture

OBAAMA  =  BUSH III                

We are suffering from 30+ years of

Reaganomics  (VUDU economics, as papa Bush called it)  and yet, half the population continues to believe in the mantra of that faith: deregulation, privatiztion, militarization, no taxes, just print the money.  The supply side is endless.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:18 | 2017819 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

"Iran outlines key steps in Iranian Leadership Suidcide"; there all fixed for you.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:22 | 2017957 caconhma
caconhma's picture

So far, NATO was very good fighting enemies who did not fight back? Qaddafi and Saddam were good examples. They both were smart-ass cowards.

We don't know how far Iranians will go defending their country.

What if Iran starts attacking NATO military and civilian targets in Europe? Iran has plenty long-range missiles covering at least the half of Europe as well as Israel. Remember, when Hesbollah started attacking the Israeli homeland, "invincible" Israel had to back up. Iran is a much bigger “fish”.

The bottom line: NATO can inflict a very serious damage to Iran but it might become a large and very costly war and the USA and its NATO allies will be very sorry they started.

What will people in Europe and the USA think & do seeing a massive loss of lives in their own countries?

 

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:48 | 2018164 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

both of their airforce were destroyed in days..if not hours..  not much you can do after that but bitch and moan

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:00 | 2018248 strannick
strannick's picture

Iran attacking Europe? I think you have the Islamic Republic of Iran Army mixed up with someplace more consequential. As for Iraq being cowardly, seemed they kept the armies of the Islamic Republic of Iran pretty busy for 8 years, before taking on the Great Satan itself, twice . And anyway, dont worry, Isreal would bitchslap the fuck out of them before they even thought of it.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:17 | 2018292 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

Strannick you are correct.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 11:04 | 2019111 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture

Gota wonder how many of those Iranian jet pilots would just keep flying into the great beyond and land on a NATO/US base and ask for assilum ( and a nice grub stake like the Cuban's get ( $10,000 and a JOB ahead of everyone else...incase you didn't know).

The fools in Iran just might do something stupid believeing their GOD will lead them to victory.  Then again, their God may just turn their country into a fucking weed field, and move on.

So tired of this crap.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 11:31 | 2019197 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

blindfaith said:

So tired of this crap.

No kidding.

By the way, you do know that the Iranians worship the same God as the Christians and Jews, don't you?

"Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever." -- Thomas Jefferson

The fools in America just might do something stupid believeing their GOD will lead them to victory.  Then again, their God may just turn their country into a fucking weed field, and move on.

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:34 | 2018325 duckhook
duckhook's picture

There is only one way for the Iranians and the USA to engage and that is if the USA wants it.Within 4 days ,all missle  and air defenses  will be taken out by Israeli and USA air power.And their navy ,what a joke.Then comes the destruction of all military oil and diesel supplies.Oh I forgot about their nuclear facilities.We will not need any land forces to destroy Iran.they will destroy themselves.This is all pure bluff and everyone knows it.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 02:22 | 2018372 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Theses Arab and Persian armies all know what awaits if they try to go toe to toe with a Western army. I think you are generally correct that it is bluff and I would add bluster and bullying toward other Arab states. However, I think the religious leadership is crazy and stupid enought to do something. I doubt that their Army will actually try or want to carry out anything. They know they will all die within hours or days.

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:27 | 2018784 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

life immitating art.  This is a scene right out of taxi-driver "you talking to me?".  then off to dirty harry "..well do ya punk?"

Another sequal just like Rocky 5 .

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 11:20 | 2019162 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

FreedomGuy wrote:

Theses Arab and Persian armies all know what awaits if they try to go toe to toe with a Western army.

This is true, and the Iranians know it. That's why their defensive strategy revolves around asymmetric warfare. Unfortunately the chickenhawk war cheerleaders won't realize this until the US military gets its nose bloodied.

I think you are generally correct that it is bluff and I would add bluster and bullying toward other Arab states.

You are correct in your interpretation of the foreign policy of the United States for the last sixty years: bluff, bluster, and bullying, especially in the middle east. Nobody likes a bully, which is why this arrogant foreign policy will be pointed to as a key factor in the decline of America and the downfall of its empire.

However, I think the religious leadership is crazy and stupid enought to do something.

While not all of America's religious leadership is insane, it is certainly true of the ones which have sought, and gained, political power and influence. They've been trying to get World War Three stirred up in the middle east for years, and I share your concern about them doing something crazy and stupid.

I doubt that their Army will actually try or want to carry out anything.

Correct again. American military strategists know that attacking Iran would be a huge mistake, and so far they've been able to withstand the cheerleading from wargirls like Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Carl Levin, and Joe Lieberman. Let's hope that reason triumphs over jingoism.

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 00:18 | 2018196 Canaduh
Canaduh's picture

"Iran outlines key steps in Iranian Leadership Suidcide"; there all fixed for you.

 

http://www.goarmy.com/learn.html

Put up or shut up you fucking chickenhawk.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 19:47 | 2017565 Instant Karma
Instant Karma's picture

Iran has some cool toys. Should be a great exercise for both sides in using missiles, aircraft, subs, ships, electronic warfare, etc. A great training tool. Whittle down the blow hards stash of weapons too.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 19:57 | 2017602 I am more equal...
I am more equal than others's picture

Will it take a nuke 'accident' to reveal the 12th Iman?  Glass and dusted ass coming soon to an Iran near you.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:50 | 2017899 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

As you sow so shall you reap.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:21 | 2017984 john39
john39's picture

who knows what ugly surprises wait.  that is what happens in war, and its well past time for these monsters to pay...   and I am not referring to Iran.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:01 | 2018265 strannick
strannick's picture

If you are not referring to Iran, you should include Iran

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 07:42 | 2018578 Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

Why not throw Russia and China in at the same time you dumb-fuck....

 

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 20:32 | 2017699 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

Just a modest suggestion, but why send a helicopter into their naval exercise when we could be bugging them with drones? I might also suggest that the drones be booby trapped so if they cpture one again it goes boom, after they land it....when they are inspecting it...."Hey Omar, what do you think this red lever is for?"

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 03:02 | 2018394 Platypi4Lyfe
Platypi4Lyfe's picture

They already have the codes to the drones, may as well but bows on them..

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 20:32 | 2017704 TheLooza
TheLooza's picture

Man, those speed boats would be even more bad ass if they had some Iranian commandos being hauled behind them on water skis.

 

I'd surrender straight away.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 20:37 | 2017728 j0nx
j0nx's picture

ROFL. I can so see that with hairy brown dudes in speedos with little red berets and big thick Magnum PI style mustaches. We surrender!

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:15 | 2018096 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Better yet, iRanian female muttawah with tight ass burkhas.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:27 | 2018122 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

Looked to be fine water for wake boarding, little rough for a single ski. 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:32 | 2018796 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

Just you wait until the sharks with lasers attached to their heads are let loose.  You will be sorry you mocked them then. 

GI Joe to the rescue.  Where's my Johnnie 7?

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:21 | 2018112 Mugatu
Mugatu's picture

Iran's navy is a joke.  Almost all their equipment is old technology.  Their corvettes and frigates are 30 years old and the scariest weapon they have are the Chinese ship missles which first came out in the 80's.  Most experts would give Iran's navy about 3 hours survival time.

If you are waiting for a Iran-US naval engagement, don't blink or you may miss it.  

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:04 | 2018270 strannick
strannick's picture

Exactly, they are from the same era as your Keyboard tie. But when the time comes for it's obliteration, as with the Iraqi army, we will suddenly hear how state of the art it is.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:37 | 2018426 Archduke
Archduke's picture

missiles reverse engineered from chinese HY-2, C-802, TL-6, and possibly french Exocet lurking in arsenal.

the exocet has proven itself against more modern ECM-equipped ships, such as HMS Sheffield in the falkands.

 

not to mention the possibilty of smuggled Patriot missile shipments courtesy of UK/Finland/Russia.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 08:01 | 2018604 Savvy
Savvy's picture

I hope your military commanders don't think like you LOL!! Iran has had 10 years (since Bush SOTU 2002) to get ready and the more the US underestimates them the happier they'll be.

 

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

-Thomas Edison

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:36 | 2018807 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

Some interresting irony quoting a guy who was deaf.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 19:49 | 2017571 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

War won't start until the final stage of hyperinflation is upon us.  Bernanke still has a lot of dollar devaluation to do.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 20:24 | 2017678 CPL
CPL's picture

It's the best looking horse in the glue factory, which means it's last at the axe.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:35 | 2017855 Mr. Lucky
Mr. Lucky's picture

I agree it's too soon.  The VIPR squads need to be deployed to keep us safe.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:37 | 2018811 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

War?

who said anything about war?

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 19:54 | 2017587 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

I don't or am not agreeing with any war action; but the US Navy -- their submarines are incomparable and basically unsinkable. If Iran did sink a tanker; its (Iran's) navy would not exist within a week. The Iranian Navy knows this; the ICRG is a little more fanatical; but they have speed boats as noted

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 20:32 | 2017703 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

When war games were run by the Navy with one side similar to Iran's force composition and using guerrilla-style tactics, the US ships were beaten so badly that it made the news and gave the Navy a huge black eye. Sorry to ruin your war drumming.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 20:42 | 2017738 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

I am not war drumming; I do not support a war; ZH peeps are very smart, one thing to understand is that although the US empire is crumbling no nation competes with our force projection of power/ network centric warfare, i.e. operations...

US subs are what would destroy all other world Navies including the rotting Russian Fleet; Japan has some comparable power. Subs, US subs win all scenarios. Its the ultimate gurilla style force... running it now on janes fleet command; US wins, only costs 3 more trillion dollars and we fall apart like the USSR; all political prisoners in the USSA gulag are set free including Ron Paul; Emperor Obama is deposed...

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:03 | 2017786 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

That's all well and good, but our fleet is built to face another cold war fleet. All the subs in the world don't win when your enemy is in hundreds of very fast speed boats carrying anti-ship missiles. If we respond to the destruction of our 5th fleet with a nuclear escalation, we risk MAD with Russia.

Stop thinking about it as a war in the conventional sense and start thinking about it like the American Revolutionary War. The Colonials lost almost every engagement, but still won the war. Why? In every conventional sense, the British army should have won handily. What they didn't understand was that the Colonials didn't have to win the battles. They only had to avoid being destroyed in order to fight another day. Add in the fact that the United States populace is burnt out with war and even the slightest of military setbacks will have a huge impact on any continued support.

Sink one, two, or more US ships and cripple the 5th, Obama won't have any choice but to push away from the table. No money, no political support, and the people are wary of another decade of war. If I know all this, the Iranian leadership does as well.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:14 | 2017799 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

You are thinking in terms of the Cole and in terms of ground warfare; US doctrine is very different then what you propose; AGEIS system and mark II torpedos and sonar negate speed boats; also keep in mine that the Cole was in port not operating

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:19 | 2017823 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

I was clear about the terms in which I am thinking. None of which involve the Cole.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:33 | 2017856 Hedgetard55
Hedgetard55's picture

Zeno,

 

     You don't know shit from shinola about military affairs. Fuck you, you stupid
POS.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:46 | 2017889 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

You sure told me.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:18 | 2018103 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

All it takes to bring down the empire is a Jedi knight.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:19 | 2018294 john39
john39's picture

aka, Iman Mahdi?

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:55 | 2017912 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Seriously, this place is loaded with people who are either ignorant as fuck or just 'wanna' believe it so bad that they'll sacrifice whatever intellectual integrity they might have.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:02 | 2017930 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

birds of a feather, so that's what attracted you

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:03 | 2017938 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Well, I don't like what's happening with the US government nor the financial sector.  But, for shit sake, now everyone is trying to 'pretend' that we don't have military might?  Again fucking IRAN?  Seriously?

 

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:07 | 2017946 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

It's almost as if you missed the last 8 years of US history in the Middle East entirely. Or you're somehow posting from 2002.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:23 | 2017981 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Well, princess, if we actually just went through and carpet bombed the fuck out of Iraq we'd be 'evil' though...right? 

Seriously, you have absolutely no fucking clue what you're attempting to discuss.  But, I'm with you sister.  If we decide to tangle with Iraq, I hope we take the gloves off and turn that fucking sandbox into the world's biggest glass parking lot.  If you want to see utter and complete in-yo-face domination, they can deliver it.  But, then you'd have to then come up with an arguement that the US was too forceful.

Go fuck your ignorant self.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:23 | 2017993 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

If we turned Iran into a parking lot, Russia and China would take issue in the form of a third world war. Do you Neo-Cons never think about any consequences for your actions? I appreciate your condescending attitude and insults, but i'm not sure they reinforce your argument.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:25 | 2017998 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

I'm not even sure what your arguement is other than wishfully mis-informed.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:31 | 2018011 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

I'm sorry but i'm not responsible for your inability to understand simple and clear explanations.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:16 | 2018099 MobBarley
MobBarley's picture

I'm not really in this conversation, just noticed how the formatting

places all the words in a vertical line going down and thought

I'd see how it handles this as well.

Not that all the words going straight down in a vertical line is any commentary on how our world is going today.

 

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:22 | 2018114 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Armchair asswipe warmongers think this is a fucking xbox game.

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:45 | 2018838 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

the narrowing of the column represents the mind.

some people just should not be engaged.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:30 | 2018128 old naughty
old naughty's picture

XF,

there's nothing simple when blood start running wild.

Live simple may be it tho, for some of us.

 

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:31 | 2018129 SanOvaBeach
SanOvaBeach's picture

Your right!  There are a bunch of neo-con jerks commenting on this web site.  I think I'll go eat a cookie, go into the corner, and spit-up.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:09 | 2018279 strannick
strannick's picture

Could you all please save the neocon v. liberal banter for anywhere else?

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 00:28 | 2018216 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

Russia and China have no real interest in any of this; Russia is merly playing games, and China only has the ability to defend itself, they have 0 zero power projection capabilities. Turkey, japan, Pakistan, and believe it or not Japan are far bigger threats at trying to escalate this disaster and get in on the "fun."

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:11 | 2018283 strannick
strannick's picture

Your knowledge of military power projection is lost here, but thanks anyway.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 14:54 | 2019895 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

If you really think that Russia and China have no interest in Iran, you're either stupid or a liar. Pick one.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 21:39 | 2020760 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

I didnt mean to imply they have no interest in Iran. What I am implying is that they have no interest in getting involved in a military.(actual) fight with the US. What you are not understanding is that these countries: Iran, China, and especially Russia have no interest in losing their any of their military assets. And I am also speaking on a military level. Meaning that the military leaders of these countries know that any agression on their part would immediately result in destructiin of their military assets.

Thus, Putin, et al. may order a ship to attack and it very well may not do shit... Iran sub commanders (for example) if their dated fleet of diesel cold war subs, knows this (what I posit): If I (Iraniam sub commander) attack a US vessel, all my subs are sunk. I hope to god there is no conflict with Iran; war and death are horrible; however, if we strike Iran, you will see no serious resistance from Iran's Navy; nor will you see any fight from Russia's fleet or whatever the Chinese have...

Why?, because we would eliminate their assets, and those or their commanders know that. Iran dosent have 50 fast atrack subs, nuclear; they have a few diesel .... and would never risk losing them in a fight witb the US navy. Iran could mine the gulf, and prob. shut it down; maybe they have a nuke, but I doubt it. But the article to me (above) clearly shows that the Iranian forces are a joke. And the US isnt gonna park a carrier in the Gulf, while marines lumber along in a landing craft toward the beach head... What you lack knowlege.on, in my opinion, are the capabilities of US military technology and network centric operations/ global command and control. Also, full spectrum superiority is another topic you should resesrch.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:25 | 2017996 john39
john39's picture

yes, much more human to rain down DU munitions on them so generations of children are born sick and deformed.  The U.S. gov is the etpitome of ignorant evil.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:59 | 2018873 Element
Element's picture

Listen up boilmaker you smelly little stain on the floor of the public toilet recess where you were ... deposited ...

actually, nah ... you're obviously trolling

or an unemployed Lockheed Martin caffateria waitress, talking up the 'job market', so you can afford more jelly donuts.

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 14:01 | 2019713 DionysusDevotee
DionysusDevotee's picture

Obvious troll is obvious. 

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:14 | 2017965 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

how many wars and occupations can this declining empire maintain? As others have asked, you seriously think this conflict would limit itself to Iran? This debate is not limited to the US military. As your first sentence demonstrates, ongoing wars are a tremendous drain on economies. Winning a battle is one thing. Winning a war and occupying a country much larger and much more advanced than Iraq or Afghanistan while eveyone sits aside is another.    

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 00:30 | 2018185 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

Davey Jones, not many... The US Army, is pretty much at a breaking point. Just like all spun media, we wont hear how bad our ground resources are really at-- i.e. conventional infantry is bleeding bad. No way this country could sustain any more wars; nothing left but the draft , and the fools in congress have no clue, and now we have the Navy involved.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 06:16 | 2018485 floridasandy
floridasandy's picture

thank you for the most logical, forward-thinking post on this forum so far.

what have we actually won so far with all these "kinetic actions"?

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:52 | 2018861 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

Those who are banking these escapades are winning just like they always have.  The IMF, World Bank, BIS, and their lower ranking banks always have and always will win in wars.  These are the money lenders who control the governments throughout the world, save Iran, North Korea and Cuba.  Libya and Eygpt were on the list but are now in transition.

This conflict will take place but with no boots on the ground it will go ballistic.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 11:41 | 2019217 BigJim
BigJim's picture

But do they need to occupy? The US & Israel regimes are capable (militarily and morally) of bombing Iran back into the stone age, without using nukes. The more munitions are used in the 'fight to spread freedom'. the more the MIC profits. They don't care how many people die, or how it impoverishes the rest of us.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:57 | 2017920 Silverballs
Silverballs's picture

Hedge I hate to rain on your neocon parade but the US navy already ran a war game against the iranian fleet and got there ass kicked if I remember correctly 16 battleships and 1 aircraft carrier were sent to bottom in this simulated exercise

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:02 | 2017933 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Jesus Fucking Christ...BATTLESHIPS??

Yea, you're not even remotely aware of what you are attempting to talk about.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:11 | 2017952 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture
Others fired Silkworm cruise missiles from close range, and sunk a carrier, the largest ship in the US fleet, along with two helicopter-carriers loaded with marines. The sudden strike was reminiscent of the Al Qaeda sneak attack on the USS Cole in 2000. Yet, the Navy was unprepared. When it was over, most of the US fleet had been destroyed. Sixteen US warships lay on the bottom, and the rest were in disarray. Thousands of American sailors were dead, dying, or wounded.
 
If the games had been real, it would have been the worst US naval defeat since Pearl Harbor.

 

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:23 | 2017986 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

"If the games had been real, it would have been the worst US naval defeat since Pearl Harbor"

Good point....errrr....what the fuck are you talking about?

So, in a thermonuclear 'pretend' war game, the US obliterates Iran.  Had it been real, Iran would be a radioactive kitty litter box.  Who gives a fuck.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:24 | 2017995 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Well, it was a US military run war game, so I guess the US Military gives a fuck. Even if neo-cons don't.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:28 | 2018004 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Holy shit!  The US ran a mock war game against Iran, lost it miserably (greatest since Pearl Harbor) and then provided YOU with those results?  Wow, that's amazing.  Who are you?

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:32 | 2018015 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

It was in the news. Try reading it some time.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:51 | 2018046 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

Operation Millenium Challenge in 2002:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

Iran says it would only refuse passage to US/related shipping, this would leave out 3d party shipping.

Iran's prob: it's dependent on dollar trade, it shifted to euros (choke), it needs to shift to yuan but cannot escape its own dollar trade.

It also cannot refine its own product.

US should stifle the saber rattling and work to undermine Iran govt. from within. Saber rattling only lends credibility to the same govt. Iranians loathe the government and desire to be rid of hated mullahs, nobody w/ brains in Obama administration.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:28 | 2018125 readytoleave
readytoleave's picture

Xeno --- stop beating your head against a wall === if they don't get -- they don't get it. 

Those of us that know -- just know... :)

i've tried to tell many --- they don't really want to know..

 

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 13:24 | 2019584 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Assuming the world's most well-funded military hasn't taken on board the lessons of war games held almost ten years ago is assuming a bit much, don't you think?

I'd imagine the various Admirals who are in charge of keeping the Straits of Hormuz open have looked at the results of those wargames and shifted tactics somewhat.

That's not to say the US won't come through unscathed, but what do the MIC care? The more our asses get kicked, the more military spending there'll be.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 03:44 | 2018410 BailoutBandit
BailoutBandit's picture

Boilermaker lost.  Take it like a man and learn something new.  Fight another day.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 14:07 | 2019741 DionysusDevotee
DionysusDevotee's picture

The neocons will give you a reach around and even let you wear your little armchair general outfit.  Just remember, you gotta yell; "USA USA" to the rhythm, or it breaks the mood.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 00:36 | 2018178 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

What you speak had much to do with the top brass as well as civilians in the top slots in the corporation. The results were pumped to increase funding via DOD via Raytheon via SPAWAR, and Nasco, et al. To push funding for LCS platform and new LPD class and fast boats; and less to do with reality; more to do with funding and money...

And trust me, the Navy is chomping at the bit to continue to look relevent. Very dangerous situation. There is also a substantial difference between what Iran's real navy could or would do, and what the revolutionary guard wishes they could do. I reiterate that the Iranian Navy (actual) has no real/true interest in any sort of fight or aggressive tactics. Also, unconventional ship warfare is, again, a mute point here due to US submarines-- if you are really interested in the topic due more research into fast attack US nuke submarines with Janes; all other platforms including these amazing speed boats [of Iran's] are irrelevent. Iran subs pose no threat. Iran knows this. Its all posturing; if something does happen, I am convinced it was due to baiting by US or "NATO" forces. Mines are the biggest threat.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:41 | 2018029 Canaduh
Canaduh's picture

In a 'thermonuclear war', EVERYTHING is obliterated, including your ignorance.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:15 | 2018094 hyperbole2000
hyperbole2000's picture

What does not get obliterated, is a chance for our contempary universal reality and all its participants to escape the corruption, rot, and inevitable self destruction that would be inflicted on it by tyranical theocratic fascism with monopolistic military power.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:20 | 2018110 MobBarley
MobBarley's picture

I do and here's why.

If America uses nuclear weapons on Iran, Russia

and China probably won't risk MAD AT THAT TIME,

however, I can gaurentee you nuclear warheads

will 'find their way into the hands of so and so

unknown groups demanding freedom for Monarch

butterfly's who proceed to serial nuke American

Cities in a long drawn out protracted war of nuclear

attrition'.

In the words of Jimi Hendrix "Can you dig it baby' ?

 

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 00:03 | 2018179 Canaduh
Canaduh's picture

Did you know Jimmy Hendrix was in the 101st Airborne?

Or that Stephen Stills claims he was in Vietnam before the first official uniformed troops?

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr95.html

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:26 | 2018304 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

Hendrix lasted 3 months post BASIC and was chaptered out for misconduct; for being far too cool for the Army :-)

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 02:54 | 2018390 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

I can gaurentee you nuclear warheads will 'find their way into the hands of so and so ....

At which point the US will obliterate the first nation to resort to nuclear 3rd party terrorism.    You do realize that nukes literally come with a goddamn fingerprint of isotope ratios yes? 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 05:32 | 2018460 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

All Russia and China have to do is dump all the US debt they hold. Boom.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 09:02 | 2018734 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

And we have a winner.  The US problems will be so deep and many we couldn't possibly foresee them all.  The bully on the playground would get his punch in the nose and all he would see is the circle of onlookers laughing with joy..

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 14:10 | 2019750 DionysusDevotee
DionysusDevotee's picture

Aww, c'mon, thats nothing that murdering a few million innocent brown people wouldn't fix, right?  USA! USA! USA!

Remember boys and girls;

SMITE MAKES RIGHT!

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 21:44 | 2020769 sof_hannibal
sof_hannibal's picture

You are absolutely right...globalization; its real, we're all brothers now through debt... 750 trillion.of it

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:39 | 2018145 SanOvaBeach
SanOvaBeach's picture

Credentials, references, footnotes?????How do you know this?

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:24 | 2017994 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

Err I pick J five.... argghh youve sunk my battleship!

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 05:54 | 2018472 Dave Thomas
Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:38 | 2018024 Silverballs
Silverballs's picture

Boilermaker...Sorry warships that completely changes everything I just said

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 02:29 | 2018378 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

It must've been a video game. There are no battleships on active duty. There is no scenario where that crap happens. While they could get off a lucky shot here or there it isn't likely. There is no winning scenario for Iran in any naval engagement of any type. Believe me, their navy knows it and they would surrender on sight.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 03:51 | 2018413 Blanche DuBois
Blanche DuBois's picture

You go girl! Set 'em straight!
We don't need no effen war with anyone!
I'm sick of it already!!!!!
:-(

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:00 | 2018069 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

 

 

How the FUCK is sonar used against Speed Boats? A torpedo against a highly manueverable and 60+ knot speedboat? Don't think so...and as far as I am aware AGEIS is comprised of networked radar and missle systems primarily as an air defense system?

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:20 | 2017824 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Obama won't nuke anyone. The demise and humbling of America is one of his prime objectives in my opinion, that is if he can make it compatible with re-election.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 13:17 | 2019560 Willzyx
Willzyx's picture

Its like trying to smash individual ants with a hammer.  Suicide bombers on boats

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 02:23 | 2018300 SgtSchultz
SgtSchultz's picture

In general, do you happen to know the threat to our sub and surface fleet from Russian designed supercavitational torpedos (it is my understanding that the Chinese and Iranians have such weapons deployed)?  As they are reportedly rocket propelled, they can travel underwater faster than the speed of sound which creates timely detection and reaction problems.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 21:36 | 2017858 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

It was a US leutenant colonel running the guerillas and yes, they did embarass the fleet. However, that is not the same as an Iranian admiral in actual combat against the only military that is properly trained for warfare.

We don't have to come within 1000 km. We just destroy Tehran. Take out a few Mosques, bomb their airbases and create enough confusion to allow the existing rebel elements to overwhelm the Revolutionary guard. Get a clue... 

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:13 | 2017961 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

There are 8.5 million people living in Tehran. Something to think about before you suggest that we destroy it.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:25 | 2017997 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

And a lot of them hate their government too.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:04 | 2018078 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

How many Iraqis were killed? Do you really think any banker cares about how many Iranians in Tehran die? Quit being a child. There are games being played and the players could care less who lives and dies. 

Military strategy requires that you attack an opponent's weaknesses and protect your strength. Iraq was supposed to put up a fight. The Iranians haven't been in a war except with Iraq, long ago... The Fog of War is a cruel mistress. 

What will Iran attack? What if no ships are sent into the straits? We have a strategic oil reserve. We have forward bases, troops in the area, NATO resources and Israel. 

I fully understand that the US is an imperialist, fascist socialist state. That doesn't mean I close my eyes to reality. There is no power in the world capable of contending with us in the mideast. 

As for China, we merely have to throw them a bone, Russia as well. All Elites are on the same page.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:18 | 2018104 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

If the Iranians pose little or no threat then please remind me of the justification to attack them in the first place.

If you agree that an attack on Iran would be a war of conquest masquerading as a war of liberation and defense (just like Iraq) then recall that history is replete with empires which continued to gamble until the day that they gambled and lost.

That's a slightly longer view of reality.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 00:16 | 2018194 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

When has the US needed justification to attack a country when it wanted their resources or to console Israel? At this point, I still see no gamble. The Elites have their own games to play- we are just on one side or the other. 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 14:15 | 2019767 DionysusDevotee
DionysusDevotee's picture

Justification?  Wha?  Well, OK...

A) They are Brown people.

B) They are Mohammadians

C) We have to hit them back first.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 11:04 | 2019110 Debt-Is-Not-Money
Debt-Is-Not-Money's picture

 

 

 

"There are games being played and the players could care less who lives and dies. "

As long as it isn't a banker!

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 23:27 | 2018123 old naughty
old naughty's picture

XF,

Where this "think" is going, its not 8.5M that counts...It may be 850M+++.

Try not think about country lines...

instead think sheeples being served up the altar.

Human's last stand.

 

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 03:57 | 2018416 Blanche DuBois
Blanche DuBois's picture

There's a documentary on YouTube called The War You Don't See. It was banned in the US so the American people wouldn't know what really went on in Iraq and in Gaza. I would suggest that all these macho neocons watch it and get a clue as to what if it happened here!

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:42 | 2018026 Ropingdown
Ropingdown's picture

Exactly, Sean7K. And it is worth noting that it was our wargame and these are held for the very  purpose of learning from them. We learned.   The Iraq war accomplished its purpose by eliminating the endless threats of Saddam against the Emirates and Saudi Arabia.  Saddam's tanks did enter Saudi once, from Kuwait.  Saddam did devastate the Kuwaiti oild fields.  That whole bit is over.  Our troops in Afghanistan could make a stopover on their way home.  I think the threat against the Strait of Hormuz is cause enough to move on the military core of Iran as such a closure would devastate the asian and european economies very quickly.  Imagine having the monthly threats backed by tactical nukes.  That's our future if we no not act soon.  Some choice: Hell now or bigger hell later.

Wed, 12/28/2011 - 22:44 | 2018034 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

The only monthly threats I see are coming from the Western countries and Israel.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 01:38 | 2018330 strannick
strannick's picture

I guess Isreal figures a nuclear-armed Iran is plenty threat enough.

And yes, yes Isreal already has the bomb. Do you think there is no difference in danger between Isreal having a bomb, and Iran? Or in the interests of fairness, maybe everyone should have one? Once upon a time there were great marches in Europe calling for unilateral disarmament, which the West's leaders thankfully ignored as the naivete of silly students. Years later we hear from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (another neo con?) how the Soviets couldnt believe their good fortune. Once upon a time Stalin was the darling of the intelligensia of the day, and then Mao...as defenders of the workin man, against the imperialistic fascists. Now the Islamists seem to be inheriting this mantle.

Thu, 12/29/2011 - 05:05 | 2018436 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

That's Israel's problem. Not ours.

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