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Iran Outlines Key Steps And Actors In A Potential Straits Of Hormuz Closure
While the Iranian war game naval exercises have been ongoing for almost five days, or half of the projected 10, tensions in the Straits of Hormuz region have been rising culminating with today's interchange between the head of the Iranian Navy and the US 5th Fleet (which for various reasons we can not present you with a status update today). One question that remains is just what would a closure of the Straits looks like. Luckily, the Middle East Media Research Institute's blog has caught a release by an Iranian website Mashreq News, which spells out the step by step details of just how such a closure would be enacted.
In response to threats by Western countries to impose oil sanctions on Iran, the Iranian website Mashreq News, which is close to Iranian military circles, posted an article on December 15, 2011 outlining military measures that could be taken by Tehran to close the Strait of Hormuz should the regime choose to do so.
The article enumerated the forces and weapons that Iran could employ in such a military operation, including fast attack craft carrying anti-ship missiles; submarines; battleships; cruise and ballistic missiles; bombers carrying laser-, radar- and optically-guided missiles; helicopters; armed drones; hovercraft; and artillery.
It stated that despite Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei's statements that Tehran would not initiate a military confrontation but would retaliate harshly if attacked, "there is no guarantee that [Tehran] will not launch a preemptory strike on the civilian level, for instance through cyber-warfare or by means of economic pressure, including by closing the Strait of Hormuz and cutting off [this] energy lifeline for an indefinite period of time." It added, "Should additional sanctions be imposed on Iran, especially in the domain of oil export, Iran might keep [its] oil from leaving its territorial waters."
In a further threat, the article stated that Iran would in the future be able to attack the 480-km pipeline with a capacity of 2.5 million barrels/day[1] that the UAE is planning to build in order to bypass the Strait of Hormuz in order to neutralize Iran's ability to disrupt the world's oil supply: "As for the plan... to construct a [pipeline] from the UAE that will be an alternative in times of emergency in case the Hormuz Strait is closed, we should note... that the entire territory of the UAE is within range of Iran's missiles, [so Iran] will easily be able to undermine security at the opening of this [pipeline] using weapons to be discussed this report."
In accordance with Iranian doctrine, the article pointed out that these weapons would actually not be necessary because there would be suicide operations, and added that "the faith of the Iranian youth, and their eagerness to sacrifice their lives, will sap the enemies' courage."
Despite statements by Iranian government spokesmen, including Oil Minister Rostam Qasemi and Foreign Ministry spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast, that the closing of the strait is not currently on Iran's agenda,[2] Majlis National Security Committee member Pervez Sarouri said that the Iran would be conducting 10 days of naval maneuvers, called "Velayat 90," beginning December 24, 2011, to drill closing it.[3]
Satellite view of the Strait of Hormuz connecting the Persian Gulf to the Sea of Oman
Kayhan editor Hossein Shariatmadari, who is close to Khamenei, called on the regime to announce immediately that Tehran would close the strait to vessels from the U.S., Europe, Japan, or any other country participating in imposing oil sanctions on Iran.[4]
At a press conference on the subject of the Velayat 90 naval maneuvers, which commenced on December 24, Iranian Navy Commander Habibollah Sayyari said that his forces would be capable of closing the strait if asked to do so.[5]
It should be noted that Iranian officials have previously threatened to close the strait as a means of deterring Iran's neighbors and the West (see previous MEMRI reports from 2010, 2008 and 2007).[6]
The following are the main points of the Mashreq News article on closing the Strait of Hormuz.[7]
Fast Attack Craft
The article stated that since it first introduced fast attack craft for use in the Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988), the Iranian navy has immeasurably improved the craft's "ability to face advanced enemy combat vessels, much less cargo ships. These boats are equipped with sea radar systems; advanced electronic communication systems; sea-to-sea cruise missiles, both short-range – 25 km – and medium range; medium- and large-caliber [sic] torpedoes; and naval mines, along with traditional means of warfare – including semi-heavy machine guns, missile launchers, and shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles. These sea craft are capable of blocking the Strait [of Hormuz] for a brief or an extended period, and of facing enemy warships trying to open the route.
"In addition to their high speed and abovementioned equipment, these sea craft are highly maneuverable. Their ability to operate at night, aided by the requisite accessories, as well as in stormy weather, has been demonstrated repeatedly in recent years, in maneuvers both minor and major. Their successful record includes stopping submarines from countries beyond the [Gulf] region that aimed to cross the Strait of Hormuz, and supporting [Iranian] submarines threatened by enemy warships in the Indian Ocean... Iran has various types of naval mines, both stationary and remote controlled. This weapon [i.e. the mines] may, if necessary, be operated by Iranian boats and submarines [located at] various points in the Strait of Hormuz and the surrounding waters."
Submarines
The article continued: "The Iranian navy's acquisition of submarines... some 20 in number... has rendered it more powerful than the navies of the [other] countries in the region. Iran's submarine craft can use torpedoes, mines, and missiles, and can remain submerged for weeks in order to accomplish a mission. Apart from the Russian Kilo class submarines, the Nahang, Ghadir, and Fateh class submarines have been pre-fitted for the waters around Iran, especially the Persian Gulf... These submarines can remain stationary in the water and can evade various enemy radar and sonar systems...
"The Kilo class submarines can carry 24 mines or 18 large torpedoes, while the Fateh class submarines can carry 12 torpedoes and/or eight mines. In addition, there have been reports in the international media stating that Iran has equipped the Kilo class [submarines in its fleet] with Hoot torpedoes...
"The Ghadir class submarines can also successfully participate in the operation [to close the strait]... [These] are small submarines manned by one or several people. Known as 'wet submarines,' they are used for commando operations, laying mines, and firing torpedoes... and can operate in narrow and shallow areas."
Warships
The article stated that "Iran has various classes of missile ships, warships, and destroyers. These marine craft are capable of launching four 'Nour' anti-ship missiles, which have a range of 120-170 km, [even] over 200 km. Additionally, these warships' 114mm and 76mm guns... can threaten various [types of] ships. [Iran's] warships can [also] threaten submarines while simultaneously operating together with the rest of the [Iranian naval] force in closing the Strait of Hormuz."
Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles
It continued: "We divide Iran's missile force into two groups: cruise missiles and ballistic missiles. They possess a wide variety of ranges and destructive capabilities. Coastal launchers for Kowsar short-range missiles and for Nour and Ghadir missiles [with a range of some 200 km] have so far been displayed, and the Naser-1 medium-range missiles are launched from Qare'a triple-barrel missile launchers. These launchers are independent, meaning that if they are deployed near the coast, they could detect and identify naval targets and attack them without the need for supporting systems from [Iranian] air and naval units.
"These systems can cover most of the Strait of Hormuz if deployed and camouflaged 70 to 150 km deep into Iranian territory, or even in the Kerman province [in southeastern Iran]. The Iranian armed forces possess these systems in abundance, and they are ready for deployment."
Ballistic Missiles
The article noted: "...Thus far, three types of anti-ship ballistic missiles have been displayed in Iran: Khaleej-e Fars, Tondar, and Sejil. Khaleej-e Fars missiles, with a 300-km range and a 650-kg warhead, are designed to destroy enemy warships. The missile can be prepared for launch in a few minutes due to its use of solid fuel and advanced guidance systems. It strikes the enemy ships from above, traveling at Mach 3, reaching [the target] in a short time and at an acute angle.
"The triple-barrel launcher for these missiles provides sufficient firepower from the first launch; it increases the operational effect of the missile, while decreasing the enemy's ability to retaliate. Based on photos of the missile, it uses an electronic guidance system, which ensures its effectiveness even against the enemy's electronic warfare. The missile's speed, angle of approach, and impact from above are effective points in its modus operandi. We can estimate that the enemy's chances of intercepting it are miniscule.
"The Tondar missile, whose range is estimated by experts to be 150-250 kilometers, operates alongside the Khaleej-e Fars missiles as a short range ballistic missile... and their combined operation can significantly raise the chances of hitting the target... The [Tondar] missile can cover the Straits of Hormuz from deep inside Iranian territory. The Khaleej-e Fars missile can cover the Western Sistan-Baluchestan area, the Kerman province area, eastern and southern Fars province, and all of the Straits of Hormuz."
"The most terrifying of all Iranian missiles is the Sejil long range missile. It has commonly been considered merely a surface-to-surface missile, but the armed forces recently announced that it can also be used to destroy naval targets. Although not much is known about the missile's guidance and targeting systems, the missile has shown great accuracy in hitting a predetermined target. This missile, with a range of 2,000 km, can reach speeds of Mach 8 to Mach 12 (2,700-4,100 meters per second)... Its warhead weighs at least 500 kilograms, helping it to destroy the target. This missile can be used to cover regions beyond the Strait of Hormuz even if deployed on the northern Iranian coast, or at the most distant point in northwest Iran. It is a two-stage rocket powered by solid fuel, and reaches great speed at the end of the first stage [of launch]. It is difficult for the enemy to detect and track it during the first stage, because it uses several methods to reduce its radar signature... Thanks to its high velocity, the chance of it being hit by enemy defense [systems] is even smaller than the chance that they will hit a Khaleej-e Fars missile.
"Such missiles would be launched from deep inside Iranian territory because scattering launchers over a larger area will make it difficult for the enemy to detect them, will limit the means the enemy will be able to use to destroy them, and will also allow the launchers to be relocated and re-camouflaged.
"Although the enemy is much more likely to detect lower-velocity missiles... the combination of the use of these weapons in areas both closer and farther away from the shore and the increased number of targets... can maintain their effectiveness."
Bomber Jets
The article stated: "Iranian fighter jets can carry various types of air-to-surface missiles that can operate against naval targets, including air-to-surface missiles with optical, laser, and radar guidance; Nour and Ghadir missiles adapted for aerial use; C-801K and C-802 missiles; as well as Kowsar and Naser missiles. [Iranian] Air Force jets can carry up to five such missiles.
"Additional missiles for naval targets include: limited range TV-guided Maverick missiles; Qassad-1 and Qassad-2 optically guided bombs with a range of 30-50 kilometers (Qassad-3 bombs, with a range over 100 kilometers, will become operational soon); and Russian-made KH-25 and KH-29 missiles with laser and optical guidance, which can be mounted on Su-24, Su-25, and MiG-29 jets. Their range is 10km-30km, and they have medium destructive capabilities.
"In addition, KH-58 long-range anti-radar missiles, which can be mounted on Su-24 jets for attacks on enemy warships, will play an important role in closing the Strait of Hormuz.
"The array of missiles and bombs with varying ranges will assist Iran in operating remotely against enemy frigates and warships."
Helicopters
"The Shahed 285 helicopter can carry Kowsar anti-ship cruise missiles, and Mi-171 helicopters can launch Nour long range missiles, and apparently Ghadir missiles as well. These helicopters, along with Cobra attack helicopters, can threaten merchant vessels and enemy warships."
Flying Boats
"Only one model of flying boat has thus far become operational in Iran. In fact, it is a new type of plane that can land on the water, and can be equipped with anti-ship missiles. This boat can take off from the water, from various points on Iran's coast, and can operate against enemy warships together with aerial defense."
Drones
"The Iranian army drones are used for anti-ship missions. The Karar drone can carry four Kowsar missiles. Due to its speed, the drone can increase the potential energy of the missiles and extend their range. The drone has a range of some 1,000 km; it is launched by a rocket, and when it reaches the correct range, it launches the missiles. Karar drones can carry dozens of missiles to the enemy warships.
"The Karar drone is made from materials that allow it to evade radar detection and get close to enemy vessels. Nevertheless, the drone can also use missiles like Naser-1, for large areas."
Artillery and Surface-to-Sea Rocket Systems
The article also claimed that Iranian security officials several times pointed out that guided bombs are actually being used against moving naval targets. It said that the range of Iranian artillery shells is over 40 km, and that they can be used to harm or destroy enemy ships. It added that during maneuvers, Iran had successfully utilized the Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 rocket launchers against naval targets.
Endnotes:
[1] Reuters.com, November 21, 2011
[2] Sharq (Iran), December 15, 2011; ISNA (Iran), December 14, 2011. An article on the Mardomak website, which is operated from outside Iran, stated that the closing of the strait was an empty threat: "As long as Iran's economy is dependent upon oil, and the export of crude oil passes through the Persian Gulf, the closing of the Strait of Hormuz will remain [nothing but] a verbal threat... Even if the tension between Iran and the U.S. increases considerably, the closing of the strait will not be an option. Iran will respond to the pressure by other means." Mardomak.org, December 22, 2011.
[3] Fars (Iran), December 13, 2011. The oil minister denied reports that Iran plans to close the strait as part of the exercise. Mashreq News (Iran), December 16, 2011.
[4] Kayhan (Iran), December 13, 2011. In addition, a group of Majlis members circulated a petition defending Iran's right to close the strait in response to oil sanctions. Kayhan (Iran), December 19, 2011.
[5] Yjc.ir, December 22, 2011.
[6] See MEMRI Inquiry and Analysis No. 615, "Iran Demonstrates Its Deterrent Strength in Military Maneuvers," June 14, 2010, http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4372.htm; MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 2029, "Iran Threatens to Close Strait of Hormuz If Attacked," August 19, 2008, http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2842.htm; MEMRI Inquiry and Analysis No. 407, "Iran's Response to Western Warnings: 'First Strike,' 'Preemptive Attack,' Long-Range Ballistic Missiles, 'Asymmetric [Guerilla] Warfare,'" November 28, 2007, http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2465.htm .
[7] Mashreq News (Iran), December 15, 2011.
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strannick, while nursing a kool-aid hangover, guessed:
I guess you guessed wrong.
From four years ago:
Livni behind closed doors: Iranian nuclear arms pose little threat to Israel
From today:
Mossad chief: Nuclear Iran not necessarily existential threat to Israel
Ropingdown demonstrated his cartoonish perception of the world when stating:
OK, armchair general, will you send them to die via treacherous mountainous terrain or via the virtually impassable salt deserts? They'll have to cross one or the other. Which will you lead them through?
What you see of our wars is indeed a cartoon drawn for a malleable and emotional public. As for our troops, they don't generally walk to their next temporary duty. The last time Iran become unsettled enough for rebellion a Times reporter asked the most prominent student leader in Tehran what would help the students most. He answered "US boots on the ground." In assessing the outcome of our wars it would be much more sensible if you thought of it from a corporate point of view, not the taxpayer's or from the cartoons you have been shown leading up to the war. After all, one minute you're believing the corporations are running things behind the scenes (which is naturally correct and obvious) and the next minute you're evaluating the total results of these little wars from the POV of the cartoon goals. That's childish. The wars have gone just fine from that longer-term corporate point of view. Armchair general? No, hardly armchair. Not a general. Example cartoons: A week after 9/11 the pols had the American people completely forgetting what had happened, that the enormously expensive CIA had incompetently lost its man in Los Angeles, and that the Airlines had refused to harden the cockpits to save a few bucks even after they knew (via a busted plot in France) that aircraft takeovers were a new and popular terrorist intention. Cartoons work. Sad, but true.
Yup just like we did in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanastan...ooo wait, not one of those turned out as planed. Oh well! Hey, why don't you go take a look at just who gets elected after we bring democracy to these fine Muslim nations? Hmmmm? Here's a clue - Western Friendly they're not.
Good lord I hope people like you get drafted into the infantry.
I think there's a sub-section of the elite who don't care whether the new regimes are Western-friendly. So what if they're not Western Friendly? That just means we bomb them some more at some later stage. These people own the banks and Raytheon et al, and watch their profits soar.
The only losing war for a warmonger is no war at all.
"The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced"
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html#ixzz1htPM9l5I
Key word sub
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Diesal sub when the Navy was looking out for Russian nuclear subs. The Japanese monitor both the sounds from diesal as well as nuclear, and they were aware of the Chinese sub. That was then. Now the Navy monitors look for both.
Hmmm. Let's say you were the US Admiral running the exercise. Your men report the signature of a foreign sub... do you say you saw it, or act surprised when it surfaces, so that the Chinese underestimate your ability to detect them? And so your friends in the MIC can demand more funding because of the fearsome Chinese 'undetectable' submarine threat?
The older I get, the less I believe anything I read in the MSM.
I remember that. The US removed the general that conducted the winning Iran role and replaced him with someone more willing to lose :roflmfao:
I went to school at the university that trained most of Iran's engineers and I lived in Isfahan for awhile (center of the "revolution") and I can say the their people can barely read and write (that is the graduate engineers) and they do not trust each other with weaponry (for good reasons). In my opinion the only thing they have going for themselves is the willingness to suicide themselves. The Fifth Fleet will sink their navy in a few hours and blow their air force out of the sky everytime they go into the air (remember how the Libyan air force did against the Sixth Fleet?). Not that I think the war would end well or that the US belongs there but their show of weaponry is a joke.
Were there people water skiing behind those 'fast attack' Boston Whalers? I couldn't tell from the photo quality.
I did like their 'flying boat'...they mated a plane to an aluminum rowboat, judging from the hull.
The flying boat was kind of sad. I believe the Iranian Navy would never risk its demise or destruction of its main brig of war flying boat; thus we need to be wary of the baiting by US military forces...I dont put anything past the USA -- especially, given the state of affairs currently; I mean how would we cope without constant war...end game
The flying boat was hilarious; a new invention according to the press release. I was looking for the propellor but I didn't see it; maybe they didn't get that far yet.
Its a catapult job, flight duration 2000 metres, principle drawback...takes ten men two hours to wind back the rubber sling, from sources I dare not reveal they are working day and night on a 3000 metre terrain following model. It will I am told even have twin espresso machines amidships, together with a Tum's dispenser and a large tube of of premasticated chewing gum for leaks.
tbd108
The stench of government, or corporate, operative rises from you.
Dear Gully Boy,
You couldn't be more wrong but in my youth perhaps some truth. I became a hardcore libertarian (go Dr. Paul especially in regard to foreign policy!) long ago after seeing the ugly game that is played by the government and corporate types. However this does not change the weapon superiority of the American navy and the fact that most engineers in Iran are only one generation from being sheepherders (if that).
Also, I say again, I do not think the war would go well for the US. Suicide will take you a long way. This is how the Iranians held up against Iraq during the 1980's and I believe it would work again especially on targets outside of Iran.
TBD my sentiments exactly as yours; with both points of what you are saying
Held up against Iraq? You mean eliminated their excess population? what are you talking about? Are they "hold up" against Abrams tanks? or Fuel Air bombs? You gotta be kidding.
I have no argument about the "excess population" comment. All I meant to say was that the Iraqi's ended up leaving Iran without taking over their oil fields which is the Iranian definition of winning.
Unless you intend to drive Abrams tanks from Israel, I don't know how you plan on getting them into Iran. Fuel Air Bombs are dropped by C-130s which make great targets for the russian-made anti-air missiles.
Sending Abrams tanks to Iran would make as much sense as sending submarines to Afghanistan. Iran is one of the most mountainous countries on Earth, which means tanks would be targets waiting for an ambush. As for crossing either of the two great salt deserts, most tanks that attempted this would never make it out.
Iraq quickly took Iran's thin strip of seafront property lying at the foothills of Iran's mountains. Iran regrouped in the mountains and came screaming back for vengence. Iranians are mountain people and not to be under estinmated. Think Afghanistan, Scotland, and good ole Kentucky.
I'll drink a shot of bourbon to that.
Iran vs. Iraq was sheepherders versus goatherders. You might have noticed that Iraq did poorly against Western forces. Iraq I took four days. Iraq II took three weeks because we couldn't drive any faster across the country.
Iran is divided within itself too as witnessed by the uprisings there.
...and the USSofA isn't divided as well?? Please, stick to driving around orange cones on Walmart parking lots. Your autocross times are lagging...
You have certainly met a different class of Iranians than I have it seems.
I am sorry if you took the comment about sheepherders as an insult to Iranian culture. I did not mean it as such. However my experience with the Iranian people is that there is a minority of highly intelligent and culturally refined people (many of whom live in the US) who reflect the high culture of ancient Persia. There are few cultures, if any, in the world that bear such dignity. However it is a different breed that now runs Iran. They are intolerant, base, thieving dirtbags who stink as much as any western group. The best of the Iranian people who still live there are oppressed by this lowlife and I pray for their deliverance from the hands of the scum.
In regard to the "engineering" types. When I went to school they largely were only interested in drinking and whoring around and then would bully their teachers into giving them C's so they wouldn't be sent home on the next boat like they deserved.
Based on your description, the Iranian people seem to have quite a bit in common with the American people.
No, he didn't met any iranians - he's just pulling stuff out of his ass.
Reminds me about some guy in OWS threads, pulling supposedly personal experience out of his ass.
Dear Karnak (with apologies to Johnny Carson),
Are we an expert on Iranian people? Ever live in LA where many of the Iranian expats still live? Me ... I spent years there working with such people. Ever work for General Dynamics or Boeing or Rockwell Collins or Honeywell on various avionics systems including years on gps? If so, give me a call. If not, try not to show your ignorant butt and keep your silly mouth shut. If you really would like, I will make a picture of my old passport showing entry to Iran in 1978 and exit when the new regime was coming in. My background before that comes from the Navy where I got to play pattycake in Med and North Atlantic during the Vietnam war. Have any real world experience outside your Mom's basement? I think not! But of course the real issue is do you have any argument with anything I said? I would really enjoy hearing comments from you about Persian culture? Of course you must be an expert on the subject with a different point of view. I would like to hear it but then, perhaps you don't know your butt from a hole in the ground?
Your internet buddy who thinks people like you should have continued your education past third grade.
P.S. The Shah sent his would be engineers (at least a lot of them) to Southern Illinois University where I did my undergradute work. Check it out bubby!
may I just ask, to clarify, are your comments about the Iranian people /engineers based on experiences in the time frame you volunteer your passport proof? ie, the late 1970's? just curious here.
Dear Friend,
All the direct experience from the education side comes from the early and mid-seventies. However the students from Iran began going to SIU in the late sixties and when I got there in 1972, they already had a less than glorious reputation about their studies. I worked directly with the Iranian air force in the late seventies where (as I said before) they did not trust their own people because of carelessness and lack of knowledge. My favorite story is about a friend of mine who had a first class electrical engineering background but agreed to load ammo on helicopters because the pilots didn't trust Iranians to do the job (and was very well paid for his effort). I also worked with Iranian engineers in several defense locations and they were first rate. But they did not think much of the ones that stayed home.
Perhaps the engineering environment in Iran has changed in the last 30 years. However it is my experience, having supervised many engineers in my career, that the type of linear thinking that makes for success in avionics or perhaps other types of engineering work starts early in life and most of Iran's people were not raised for it.
P.S. I remember reading a story about a year ago on the To the Point website hosted by Jack Wheeler where following a big photo shoot by the Iranians bragging about their advanced missile technology, western experts carefully analyzed the pictures taken and discovered the missile was a painted over 1960's vintage Russian scud. This (in my mind) says it all.
Having read this thread down to here i'd just like to say the comments have been totally fucking idiotic for the most part.
Amazing how the goyim can be pumped up for another fight against isreal's enemies with the hint of a challenge to the MIC.
I am not goyim. I am an Irish Jew.
In the late 15th century a boat filled with Russian Jews escaping from a Russian pogram, were blown off course on their way to Spain (they hadn't heard about Ferdanan & Isabella) and landed in Dublin. The were well treated and settled. One on them actually became the Lord Mayor of Dublin! They all left after WWII, most went to Israel. But others, found there way here and there.
Shalom
the above comment was a general whinge with the personal attack on you coming below.
your're an irish jew?! then you should know better than to pump up the yanks on this site for another fight with the mohammedans.
the americans bankrolled the IRA for years - until 911 put them off terrorism in the west at least - many of your irish countrymen and women got killed and robbed with bombs and 'protection' rackets. or is that of no consequence?
i come from a house where i was taught sympathy for isreal - shit, my dad can read and write hebrew - and its a pity they are surrounded by nutty arabs... but they can fight their own battles, i dont think america should so their bidding. iran doesn't matter . period.
i'm off for a black bush. catchya.
I am having trouble pasting a jpeg file into my reply below. Anyone who really cares to see the appropriate page out of my thirty year old passport please give me a tip.
I'd think long and hard before posting a page off my passport anywhere on the internet, amigo. But on a dissident site like ZH? You're a braver man than me.
I would never put an identifiable passport excerpt on the net. My intention was to show the Iranian visa and entry stamp circa 1978 which I figured would calm Karnak down. I still haven't figured out how to post an image file so I guess the point is now moot anyway. However regarding being identified by the government as reading/posting on ZH, I am sure we have all made that list already. But speaking for myself, I am a retired engineer living in the mountains and not a threat to anybody. However I believe the banksters and such are a big enough threat to themselves and don't need help bringing the system to its knees (if not collapsed).
guess what,... years ago i worked on all the Nukes, throughout the country - had drinks weekly with the top NRC boys --- yes,... the same guys that make the decisions on retrofits or engineering upgrades --- they my friend were all well-grounded, happy, and joyful Iranians
ps. the Chinese-American/ Indian American, engineers , and physicist currently running our Cyber Security& Espionage / Los Alamos, etc., etc., are now, and have been for decades on 'Swap-Loan Personnel Programs' to Russia, China, India!
Remember: Iran has done nothing to provoke this aggression --- both israel and iran don't care for each other,... this is true, but,... why does the world ignore the vast amount of nuclear weapons of mass destruction, where religion was born [Jerusalem]?
thankyou tyler
It seems that you have moved on from Iran to Israel? I know that the Israeli's have some of the best engineers on earth (having worked on various projects with senior Israeli engineers). However you can't be referring to Iranian engineers working on nukes unless your work is real current (and you said it was years ago). It was the Russian engineers (another very bright group I have have personally worked with) who built their sole nuclear power plant (the work on which died the moment the Russians went home). These days it is the Pakistani's and North Korean's that are doing the heavy lifting. I am sure there are "well-grounded, happy, joyful" Iranians but in a sad country like Iran where they clear minefields with 10 year old boys wrapped in sheets and the leaders can only stay in power by constant blabbering about Israel's annihilation, I think you ought to go there is you think it so neat.
As far as Iran's provocations ... I read recently from what I believe to be a very reliable source (Jack Wheeler) that Iran only has a few more years of serious oil supply left so they are desperate to move around the gulf into Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia in order not to end up in the league of nations like Chad and the Central African Republic. With no affection for the leaders of the other Persian Gulf nations (largely US stooges) I would argue that they are looking for trouble and not next year either.
"It won't take weeks. You know that, professor. Our military machine will crush Iraq in a matter of days and there's no question that it will."
(Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 2/10/03)
yes, but 18 months later they had all the oil wells divvied up and signed contracts for life with the puppet gov't that was then, and is now in charge
imagine putting a shiite iraq gov't in charge,... next to a shiite iran
kinda boggles the mind?
the kurds, and sunni's mean nothing to 'tptb' --- hmmm,... some kind of pathetic, eh
An undersea drone minefield ... could tie up the straights for a while based on the precautionary principle. Does anyone have remote controlled mines? Seems like a good weapon for narrowish waterways, tie up lots of resources to remove and you can maneuver new ones into position. *strokes cat*
Thats true; minning is the least expensive and most plausible thing Iran; could do to shut down the gulf. It causes the most damage and there is little to do to remove mines easily... Sadam (the original sworn enemy of Iran-- hey maybe we could put him back in power; we can send Rumy on a diplomatic mission; whoops -- too late); Sadam was actually effective at the use of mines during Desert Strom. The US Navy mine sweeper fleet is weak; I think their best weapon are trained dolphins, which detonate them (sadly)...
Well, it's a lucky thing they are such strong believers in "The Religion of Peace".
"Peace" in islam = dar al salam, or that part of the world that is under islamic law...not "Peace" meaning absence of war that you are familiar with.
I'm sorry to see it was necessary to specifiy the sarcasm.
Fortunately the ignorance came though loud and clear.
"The Religion of Peace" - that would be Christianity, right? As practiced by those men of deep faith, Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Reagan, Dubya, Obama, et al.
I say we put Barney Frank, Boehner and the rest of those fucking crooks on a ship with all of them tied to the side of it, and send them straight down the Strait of Hormuz with a sign on the ship saying please shoot at us!
And ex-Congressman Weiner: Barney, Boner and Weiner, Oh my!
...and wargirls Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Carl Levin, and Joe Lieberman.
Obama will proudly proclaim that we're winning the war on terror and we'll go out killing shepards in Iran so we can get their oil
-tallen
I've had it with you lugnuts. It's time to put up or shut up. Where have we seized any oil? When have we seized any oil? The only seizing of oil I've seen has been to the tune of over $100 a fucking barrel, and that's some piss poor seizing. You dumbasses should probably drop that one from your preapproved list of dumbass talking points.
I'm sitting here waiting for some seizing. I've been promised seizing, but so far no fucking seizing! If someone would just do some seizing then I could keep my truck.
you don't have to "seize" the oil in order to protect the worlds supply and US Dollar hegemony.. Your TV must be set on FOX and located up your ass.. You'd be doing the world a favor if you got out more and educated yourself on how it works and who is running the show..
You're very light on details. It's sounds like you're the one who has been listening to Alex Jones, and just spouting talking points. I understand about how monetary policy is effecting the price of oil, but there is no need to invade a nation to pull that scheme off. So I ask you again when have we seized oil, as opposed to paying a fair price to sovereign nations on the open market.
Let's See.
1. Iran has no central bank
2. Iran has in excess of 300 tons of gold.
3. Iran has oil. Quite a bit.
4. Israel no likey Iran.
4a. The US Congress LOVES to do Israel's bidding, using US dollars, assets, and lives.
5. Nothing distracts the sheeple from thier miserable lives and who is responsible like a shooting war - the bigger the better.
Conclusion: War with Iran in 2012.
and Israel has said they would wipe Iran off the map? I guess President Ahmadinejad who did say that about Israel is a Mossad plant. Those Jews are tricksy.
Two minor points:
1) Ahmedinejad never said that, and
2) the President of Iran is not the leader or ruler of Iran.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/world/africa/26iht-iran.html
There is the link to the NYT so.... how many more would you like?
I'm glad to see you're informed enough, even though you're a bold face liar, to know that he is not the supreme leader of Iran. The U.S. equivalent would have been if the Secretary of state had said it.
do you have any links to the correct translation of his words? I'm loathe to use wiki on this, but here:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_I...
So it was just a misunderstanding? I get it. How about that Hamas charter that calls for the destruction of Israel? You got a cunning linguist that can carry the water on that one?
Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Al-Zahar did not rule out the possibility of accepting a "temporary two-state solution", and stated that he dreamed "of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it.
-from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Another fundamental Islamist dreams about Israel being wiped from the map. That cunning linguist is going to be working over time. How exactly do you think these upstanding gentlemen, who have been so poorly translated, will go about peacefully removing Israel from the map?
Haha.
You've been outed like the goyim useful idiot you are.
Lift your game fool.
Looks like were both out of the closet then. Least I'm just a useful idiot.
Was it a misunderstanding? No, of course not. They deliberately not only mis-quoted him, but mis-quoted him out of context (a speech comparing the fall of the 'invincible' zionist regime with other 'invincible' regimes, like the USSR, that collapsed on their own), so that people who still believe the MSM would be misled.
That's you, by the way.
I'm guessing your reply to everything is going to be some derivitive of "it was those damn dirty Jews" right?
Nice try. But recognising that zionism appears to have hijacked the MSM does not necessitate being anti-Jew.
ISRAEL helped CREATE Hamas as a containment of Hezbollah! You know NOTHING!
Thank you for providing the correct quote in Farsi.
I would translate "safheye-ruzgar" as "annals of history"--In our own idiom we would say "relegate the [zionist] regime to the dustbin of history".
He only supplied half of what was written in wiki. The other half didn't support his statement. Without actually speaking Farsi there is no way to make a determination that the quote was incorrect.
Can't believe that you imagine a reference from the Jew York Times is any use in this sort of issue.
Winner, winner chicken dinner!! Come on tell us about those dirty Jews.
So what if he did? Khrushchev said "We will bury you!" - guess you would have put the '52s in the air and started a nuclear war, right? Dumass. Iranians have been fulminating against the 'Great Satan' and 'Zionist Entity' for decades - you can almost set your watch to it by now.
Here's one thing I can say - next war, no holding Israel back...let them finish it. Once and for all.
So "Israel no likey Iran" is good enough for your list, but an actual quote promising to wipe Isreal from the map doesn't matter, and I'm the dumbass?
All you've provided is an imaginary quote.
and all you've proven is that you're a purposeful liar who has no interest in the truth, but only what fits your agenda.
...and to all a good night!
"...Obama will proudly proclaim that we're winning the war on terror and we'll go out killing shepards in Ira..."
You mean, similar to what Michael Scheuer describes in his epic masterpiece Marching Toward Hell, in which he describes how the USA waited about 12 hours after we acquired a target, then bombed said targets, killing only the janitors in the middle of the night?
if they are going to do it lets have it in the next 2 days so my Intrade bets pay out big
https://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/contract/?contractId=716708
What a stupid comment. Did we get Iraqi oil? No. So many shitheads talking about war for oil, like we go in there and take their oil and ship it all back here…. right. Is the Middle East of strategic interest to the United States? Yes, and we need to make sure it is reasonably stable for the near to mid future or unless and until we start to drill for our own oil on our own soil creating our own jobs. If it wasn’t for the environmental Statist in the Country, we wouldn’t have to worry so much about the Middle East. Iran is a danger to the US, and anyone who thinks this is only about oil, and not about the destruction of Israel, and or the US, is naïve at best, and an American hating asshole at worst. Yeah, no matter what, blame America first, it’s all America’s fault, America sucks…… right? Assholes.
Where is Bagdad Bob to proclaim victory? Or is it Tehran Ted?
Where are the photos and details of the American forces in the region?
Come on ZH...Iran isn't exactly a titan of military might. Keep it realistic, please.
Really. This arrayed power may last 12-18 hours against Fifth Fleet and aircraft based in Saudi. Maybe three days if they hide the land based launchers well.
Yes but, but, but, they has these remote control thingeys and suicide people too....
/sarc off?
Yeah! The US military is known for winning wars quickly! Vietnam! Iraq! Af/Pak! Get 'er done!
Well if the libs would ever take the cuffs off the US Military I think you'd see a lot more destruction. We haven't waged total war since WWII.
Yeah - get those "Mission Accomplished" banners ready.
The US Military has always been the bitch of bleeding heart liberal commie faggots; I'll let them know you said so.
as long as they take pictures of girls kissing
Or Bush kissing and holding hands with men.
did you mean capitalized or not?
haha! Well, now that's funny!
Yeah, Bush sure showed Iraq! And Af/Pak! Those Rhinos sure won those wars! And Nixon, he won Vietnam! Those Rhinos! Woop! Don't mess with them!
get those "Mission Accomplished" banners ready
---
More like " MISSIONARY [position] ACCOMPLISHED
The US military is great at actually fighting at a defined enemy especially at conventional warfare. The Iranian Navy is an ideal conventional enemy with little to no real Naval power... however, to get to that spice aka oil we would have to do the whole import democracy and regime change...
that we we suck royally at; mainly because it doesnt work... it fails everytime; unless its against the nazi's, imperial Japan, or cold war russians... Never start a land war in eurasia...bottom line here...unless its about black gold and peak cheap oil, that is running low...
I don't think you read the article or know anything about how Iran will defend themselves.
I think you read it, saw photos of missle looking thingies and made some naive and ignorant conclusions.
Google search Operation Millenium Challenge and get back to me about your ignorant conclusions.
Do I have to mis-spell it to get the right reference like you did, ms. ignorant conclusion?
Nope, google will help you out.
Seriously, you're fucking stupid if you think Iran can muscle the US with military. Grow the fuck up. The world is a hostile fucking place and men use things that go *boom* for political reasons. The US has the best and loudest *boom* thingies. It's just a fucking fact. I'm sorry you have trouble digesting that.
The point is, they don't need to muscle with the US military. Guys like you will whined and complained when the Colonials hid behind trees and refused to march in big lines on an open field.
Who could not agree with this gorgeous girl
meh
Pride goeth before the fall.
Some results before the operation was restarted:
Not exactly something that would be easily swallowed here on the US mainland, and for good reason.
pods
I don't think the point of any US war is to get it done quickly. If the wars were over in a few days/hours what excuse would companies like Halliburton and the rest of the MIC use to rob the US citizens of their wealth.
Hell, we couldn't even find all of Sadaam's scud missles in the Gulf War if you remember!
...or those weapons of mass destruction either.
"...weapons of mass destruction..."
They were actually referred to as 'weapons of mass delusion' but then Reuters got it wrong and it was never corrected.
...or those weapons of mass destruction either.
Because there weren't any. Just like there are no Iranian nucs despite claims to the contrary by zionist-controlled western media propagandists.
But there's one country in the ME that has quite an arsenal of Nucs and routinely violates human rights. Which country should we really be worried about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxkDMt0-nTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIHcYLm2d3s&feature=related
A Video Israel Doesn't Want You to See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIHcYLm2d3s&feature=related
So there is only one violator of human rights in the ME? I'm a bit surprised because I thought that raping, stoning, and and tossing gays off of mountains might be a violation of human rights. I'm really glad I read your comment because it's set my mind at ease. Earlier today I read that Egypt was considering covering the pyramids with wax(woohoo Arab spring), so that they would not offend Allah, but I feel much better now that you've set me straight.
Were gonna find them somday. Cheney is still hot on their tail. Unknown knowns you all
AH, yes, the horribly inaccurate flying gas can known as the scud. That was really world class technology also.
A scud killed 27 quartermaster corps members from Pennsylvania in 1991.
Well, no kidding. Nobody said they weren't deadly and loaded with explosives. But, nice diversion argument from the fucking point. Christ, Tim McVeigh blew up a building with a Ryder truck and some fertilizer.
But, you're right, the scud is one bad ass fucking missle.
Boilermaker, OKC was an inside job. Do you always eat the shit sandwich the establishment media feeds you?
Do you always eat the shit sandwich the Internet Gurus feed you?
Actually, that's just a rhetorical question.
It certainly was bad ass to those whom it killed. But they're just fodder for your dreams of armchair conquest. Why let the tears of dozens of families stop you from shooting off your mouth?
The warhead fell on their barracks after the missle was shot down by a patriot missile. It landed a couple of blocks away from a large fuel depot. If it hit that, it really would have left a mark.
Good thing we spent hendreds of billions of dollars taking apart such a titan of a threat.
Billions? Trillion dollars and counting. Banks aren't the only bailout reciptents. Oil companies got a large free ride into Iraq.
can we send the executives' children in with congressional offspring as the right flank?
If the right flank is located in Mexico on a beach sucking back tequila and fucking hookers. Sure. The other right flank of everyone else's kids will be there to cover them overseas.
So Iraq ran their own oil fields, or were they ran by Western contractors? If I remember we booted out the French contractors because France put up a big fuss in the UN, but of course later we found out that they were only protecting their oil for food racket. I don't agree with either Iraq or Afghanistan but I don't have a problem with replacing the French middle men with US. middle men after we've spilt blood there.
That's your inner "cheese eating surrender monkey" bias on display...
Thank you for unwittingly supporting my point!
I remember.
And we are going to need those Tico class which are recieving the anti ballistic missile for playtime when the time comes.
Just doing major damage to one carrier would create a big repair bill, and if they hit the powerplant that would effectively be a total loss.
Nuclear powered, remember.
The INS Hanit (translated as Spear) is a Sa'ar 5-class corvette of the Israeli Navy that was built by Northrop Grumman Ship Systems in 1994. On July 14, 2006, during the 2006 Lebanon War, it suffered damage after being attacked by Hezbollah, apparently by a C-802 anti-ship missile.
During the 2006 Lebanon War, the vessel was patrolling in Lebanese waters ten nautical miles off the coast of Beirut. It was damaged on July 14, 2006 on the waterline, under the aft superstructure [1][2] by a missile (likely a Chinese-designed C-802[3]) fired by Hezbollah. Reportedly, setting the flight deck on fire and crippling the propulsion systems inside the hull.[4] However, INS Hanit stayed afloat, got itself out of the line of fire, and made the rest of the journey back to Ashdod for repairs on its own.[5] Four crew members were killed during the attack: Staff Sergeant Tal Amgar, Corporal Shai Atas, Sergeant Yaniv Hershkovitz, and First Sergeant Dov Steinshuss.[6]
According to the Israeli Navy, the ship's sophisticated automatic missile defense system was not deployed, even though the early warning system is usually deployed during peace-time wargames. Israel said the defense system was not deployed because of Israeli aircraft in the area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Hanit
Any carriers would be in the Indian Ocean...not sitting in a shipping channel with a depth between 100-150ft.
It does allow for great overhead optics for those "terrifying" Iranian subs though ;-)
Good luck hitting a US Aircraft Carrier. That would be a chore for China if they so desired.
It's one thing to get a shot in on a Naval support ship which is very unlikely or a couple tankers which is quite possible. Iran isn't hitting a carrier with that weaponry.
To go to war with Iran, will be a war with China.
BREAKING NEWS!!!
Here's how the latest war games played out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrHs8CWDzmc
the Chinese could pop another sub up right in the middle of the carrier group any time they wanted, like last time, or just torpedo them instead.
rosethorn,
If they hit a few...then more to either side (there are no sides really)...then total loss.
E.L.E.
Add to 5th the fleet-- the MED assets and germany assets in adition to the Suadi bases; and you can add the entire WESTPAC and RIMPAC and probably the 6 covert US subs both SSN and SSGN currently operating in the gulf... The Iranian Navy is not stupid; the ICRG is... However, Iran would not risk its assets... thus, we have to assume if or when something aggressive happens... I would think its the old bait and hook and switch and presto we have a nice little war to distract from the global financial collspse... war bucks; buy gold, buy silver; and oil...
Never underestimate the enemy - decimate them. - Sessinpo
Agreed. That's exactly the plan and outcome if the Iranian navy fucks with the 5th fleet.
Does the plan include Iran's allies Russia and China?
Neither China nor Russia can project force quickly enough into Iran. Non-starter.
China may not be a large threat but I wouldn't test Russia. China, however, could put it's dollars and USTs on the market and see how the market reacts.
lots of ways to win a war and the US is soooo much weaker in sooo many areas than sixty five years ago
as our history books have taught us, a military is not an economy but a drain on it
I see wonderful things on the horizon immediately after starting war with Iran....fuel $10/gal for starters should be a big boost to the economic recovery, which is already doing quite well! And how 'bout that napalm in the morning?
perhaps should think along the line of WHO in the market would [dare] buy, in the scenario...
Please no. That's just what Ben needs - an excuse to buy more.
Neither Russia nor China would risk anything more than smooth trade relations over Iran. Neither like Iran that much nor consider Iran important enough to risk a nuclear conflict. Russia would fire little more than harsh words, but would probably welcome the conflict given what it would do to the price of their largest export commodity, and China would scramble to make an oil deal with any possible post-war Iranian leadership.
Sounds safe as milk. Will you be going on this picnic?
No, but our entire VOLUNTEER and PROFESSIONAL sailors and airmen will be.
The men and woman in the service volunteered to defend our nation but don't like being asked to put their lives on the line for wars of choice. That's why 70% of them who make campaign contributions give to Ron Paul as compared to his rivals. He supports the troops while you ask for them to be put in harms way for your amusement.
The professionals in our military have told you time and again that Iran has no nuclear weapons or weapons program. But you ignore them too. Why do you hate America?
Pat Buchanan: Let Congress decide on war with Iran
“The secretary was clear that we have no indication that the Iranians have made a decision to develop a nuclear weapon,” said Pentagon press secretary George Little. “He (Panetta) didn't say that Iran would, in fact, have a nuclear weapon in 2012.”
Little added that U.N. inspectors remain in Iran and have access to its uranium stockpile, and should Iran attempt a “breakout” by diverting low-enriched uranium to a hidden facility to convert it to weapons grade, U.N. inspectors would instantly detect the diversion.
“We would retain sufficient time under any such scenario to take appropriate action,” said Little.
In short, the Pentagon does not believe Iran has made a decision to build atomic weapons, and the department is confident that, should it do so, the United States would have ample warning.
Little's definitive statement, “We have no indication that the Iranians have made a decision to develop a nuclear weapon,” coincides with the consensus of all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies, including the CIA and Defense Intelligence Agency, in December 2007.
In that report, the entire U.S. intelligence community stated unanimously, with “high confidence,” that Iran had given up its drive for an atom bomb back in 2003.
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20111227/OPINION02/712279995
Many of the kids join because they cant find jobs or opportunities otherwise; many are from low ses and very poor families, military industrial complex yo