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Joel Salatin: How to Prepare for A Future Increasingly Defined By Localized Food & Energy
Submitted by Chris Martenson
Joel Salatin: How to Prepare for A Future Increasingly Defined By Localized Food & Energy
Joel Salatin, proprietor of Polyface Farms and highly-visible champion of sustainable farming, thinks modern humans have become so far removed from a natural connection to the food they eat, that we no longer have a true understanding of what "normal" food is.
The rise of Big Ag and factory farming over the past century has conditioned us to treat food mechanically (as something to be recoded and retooled) vs biologically. And we don't realize that for all our industrialization and optimization, we're actually getting less yield and less nutrition than natural-based processes can offer.
Whether we like it or not, the arrival of peak oil is going to force us to realize that our heavily-energy intensive practices can't continue at their current scale. And with world population still increasing exponentially, we'll need to find other, more sustainable, ways of growing our food.
"What we view today as "normal" I argue is simply not normal. Just think about if you wanted to go to town 120 years ago. If you wanted to go to town you actually had to go out and hook up a horse. That horse had to eat something, which means you had to have a patch of grass somewhere to feed that horse which meant you had to take care of some perennial in order to feed that horse in order to go to town. And so throughout history, you had these kinds of what I call ‘inherent boundaries’ or brakes on how much a single human could abuse the ecology.
And today, during this period of cheap energy, we’ve been able to extricate ourselves from that entire umbilical, if you will, and just run willy-nilly as if there is no constraint or restraint. And now we are starting to see some of the outcome of that boundless, untied progression. And so the chances are, the way to bet, is that in the future we are going to see more food localization, we are going to see more energy localization, we are going to see more personal responsibility in ecological lifestyle decisions because it's going to be forced on us to survive economically. We are going to have to start taking some accounting of these ecological principles."
Joel, his family, and the team at Polyface Farms dedicate themselves to developing environmentally, emotionally and economically-enhanced food prototypes and advocate for duplicating their production around the world.
In this interview, Chris and Joel explore what constitutes truly sustainable agriculture and the reasons why our current system has departed so far from it, as well as practical steps individuals can take to increase their own personal resiliency around the food they eat (in short: "find your kitchen", source your food locally, and grow some yourself).
Click here to listen to Chris' interview with Joel Salatin (runtime 44m:15s):
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Hmm...
regarding Organicly grown.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Organic_food
Organic food Nutritional value and tasteAccording to the UK's Food Standards Agency, "Consumers may choose to buy organic fruit, vegetables and meat because they believe them to be more nutritious than other food. However, the balance of current scientific evidence does not support this view."[33] A 12-month systematic review commissioned by the FSA in 2009 and conducted at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine based on 50 years' worth of collected evidence concluded that "there is no good evidence that consumption of organic food is beneficial to health in relation to nutrient content."[34] Other studies have found no proof that organic food offers greater nutritional values, more consumer safety or any distinguishable difference in taste.[35][36][37][38] A recent review of nutrition claims showed that organic food proponents are unreliable information sources which harm consumers, and that consumers are wasting their money if they buy organic food believing that it contains better nutrients.[39]
Although it is commonly claimed that organically grown food tastes better than conventionally grown food, reviews of the literature that looked at the sensory qualities of the two have not found convincing evidence that there is any significant differences.[30][29]
( In other words just another scam to part the marks from their ever decreasing cash)
I eat mostly organic these days, and since I have started doing so I feel much healthier and for sure the taste of most organic food is greatly superior to most non-organic food.
All it takes is a few weeks of eating organic for a person to make up their own mind about the taste aspect, a few months to see if they feel more healthy. Don't need a study for this, one that was most likely funded or influenced by non-organic agri-businesses.
Also, don't underestimate the value of psychology in health. There is a reason for all those pill colors and shapes. ;-)
http://www.colorcombos.com/the-color-of-that-little-pill-does-make-a-dif...
Fukushima Sam
"All it takes is a few weeks of eating organic for a person to make up their own mind about the taste aspect"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs
Penn & Teller: Bullshit - Organic Taste TestThe same idiots who think spewing gigatons of poison into the atmostphere is a good idea.. and want NO! Government Contorls wwith regard to releasing emissions..
are the same idiots who own commercial food interests.. and will in the same breath discuss how organinc is BADDDDDDDDDDDDDDD! for you.
How much do the Koch Brothers pay you?
or???
are you just fucking stupid?
Trio of Los Angeles raw food advocates reportedly charged with raw ... www.naturalnews.com/033222_raw_food_conspiracy.html - Cached You +1'd this publicly. UndoAug 3, 2011 – It is time to stop government-run terrorism against health food stores. ... cabal of criminals who now run our federal government and will stop at ...
Mar 17, 2009 – Many small farmers and organic food activists are claiming that if .... Keep the federal government/Wall St. out of the food supply. .... growers) and they don't have long shelf life (again, a problem mostly for the large producers). ...The Final Hour: HR 875: The End Of Organic Farming?
thefinalhour.blogspot.com/.../hr-875-end-of-organic-far... - CachedSimilar You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Psychotic Disorders - Schizophrenia and Schizoaffective - Beautiful ... www.beautifulmindsmedical.com/...health.../psychotic-disorders- ... - Cached You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Home > Mental Health Conditions > Psychotic Disorders – Schizophrenia and Schizoaffective. Tweet ... Organic Food, Pesticides and Brain Development ...
The problem with organic www.nationmultimedia.com/.../The-problem-with-organic-3016191... - Cached You +1'd this publicly. UndoAug 4, 2011 – Nanta says she'll only to go back to organic farming if the government introduces promotional measures and guarantees help with the rice price ...
www.drpasswater.com/nutrition.../Murray_FDA_part_1_final.html - Cached You +1'd this publicly. UndoFDA Injustices Against The Health Food Industry
Whole Foods Magazine. July 2005. FDA Injustices Against. The Health Food Industry. An interview with Frank Murray: Part 1. By Richard A. Passwater, Ph.D. ...
?
FDA Injustices Against The Health Food Industry Part 2
www.drpasswater.com/nutrition.../Murray_FDA_Struggle_final.htm... - CachedSimilar You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Whole Foods Magazine. August 2005. FDA Injustices Against The Health Food ...
Show more results from drpasswater.com
Testimony > Health Fraud - Food and Drug Administration
www.fda.gov › News & Events › Testimony - Cached You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Jul 24, 2009 – Promotions for fraudulent products appear daily in newspaper and magazine ads ... FDA's mission is to protect and promote the public health. ... that we strive to meet our mission of protecting consumers against health fraud. ...
Health Care Reform Bill Gives Power to FDA Shut Down Organic ...
www.politicolnews.com/health-reform-fda-power/Similar You +1'd this publicly. Undo
The Obama Health Care reform Bill gives the FDA power to shut down the ... and it works against organic farmers to grow their produce without Monsanto GMO's ...
Timeline of FDA raids on raw milk farmers, dietary supplement ...
www.naturalnews.com/033280_FDA_raids_timeline.html - Cached You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Aug 10, 2011 – (NaturalNews) The US Food and Drug Administration has a long history of ... Timeline of FDA raids against farmers, health clinics and dietary ...
FDA is seeking to ban the sale of natural foods
www.lef.org/featured-articles/consumer_alert_041907.htm - CachedSimilar You +1'd this publicly. Undo
FDA is seeking to ban the sale of natural foods. ... Life Extension is a global authority on nutrition, health and wellness. as well as a provider of scientific ...
1 FDCA §§ 201(s), 402(a)(2)(C)(i), 409; 21 U.S.C. §§ 321(s), 342(a ...
www.cspinet.org/foodsafety/stevia_letter.pdfSimilar You +1'd this publicly. Undo
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) take enforcement action against Organic Milling. Corporation. That company is selling an adulterated product, Back ...
A brief history of FDA raids against providers of natural health products
https://thebovine.wordpress.com/.../a-brief-history-of-fda-raids-agai... - Cached You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Aug 11, 2011 – Bovine comment: The recent August 3rd raid on Rawsome foods is just the latest in a long string of FDA actions against alternative health ...
FDA Agents Launch Covert Ops Against ... - Health Freedom Alliance
healthfreedoms.org › Big Government - Cached You +1'd this publicly. Undo
May 4, 2011 – FDA agents launch covert ops against D.C.-area raw-milk buying club. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has just filed a complaint in ...
USDA-FDA Organic Foods
usda-fda.com/articles/organic.htm - CachedSimilar You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Consumers no longer have to play a guessing game when it comes to organic foods. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) now has national ...
JW n FL
You know they gave you the meds for a reason. You are the only one seeing the MIB hiding in the bushes.
www.crookreport.co. ..." href="http://www.zerohedge.com/url?sa=t&source=video&cd=1&ved=0CDoQtwIwAA&url=...">Police Raid Organic Farmers across US more ...youtube.com5 min - Aug 5, 2010 - Uploaded by djjasonxxx
Police Raid Organic Farmers in US more info at www.crookreport.co.uk
youtube.com55 sec - Aug 1, 2010 - Uploaded by activistpost
Independent News Blog www.ActivistPost.com July 25, 2010|By PJ Huffstutter, Los Angeles Times With no warning one weekday ...
youtube.com10 min - Jul 26, 2010 - Uploaded by ddarko2012
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE!!!!! www.chicagotribune.com With no warning one weekday morning, investigators entered an organic ...
by crikey JW, you are an idiot.............
It also depends on the quality of the growing environment and the quality of the organic fertilizer used. For instance, I know from first-hand experience that pot grown with bat guano in a soilless mix tastes much better than pot grown hydro with liquid organic fertilizer. ;-)
The world is a complicated place and there are few absolutes, but in general I will get much better taste from my produce if I buy organic. It could be that this is due to the care with which it is grown and handled. Meanwhile, I appreciate that there are likely long-term benefits to not taking in pesticides and GMO crops to my body.
the soil is the plant and its taste just like wine grapes
The box of veggies we get every week from the farm co-op has food in it that tastes better than anything I've gotten from the supermarket. My own anecdotal evidence trumps Penn and Teller, as well as some study done in the UK.
Furthermore, there have been studies in the US that show just the opposite - that the nutritional content of foods is directly related to the quality of the soil it's grown in, and that after decades of industrialized farming, huge swaths of farmland are producing food that is less nutritious than it used to be.
As for taste, well there's no accounting for it.
It's easy to explain the taste difference. Supermarket food is picked before it's ripe so it can make the long trip without spoiling. Your local food is allowed to ripen "on the vine" and you get it much sooner.
Hey, nice study you've got there. But here's your problem: I've tried organic and non-organic food and organic, locally grown food tastes much better. So who do I believe, my own lying taste-buds or Monsanto?
Why would Monsanto lie?
Profits.
Monsanto Shifts ALL Liability to Farmers
http://www.morphcity.com/home/94-monsanto-shifts-all-liability-to-farmers
http://www.monsanto.no/index.php/en/environment/gmo/gmo-news/95-why-genetically-modified-organisms-gmo-should-be-prohibited
Monsanto and its GM Patents for Genetically Altered Organisms! http://goo.gl/ks6qy You should read / watch this! Because you eat it!
post of the week award
Bicycle Repairman
You mean once you get past the personal bias?
Your fucking senses lie to you all the goddamned time, why assume the ones in your mouth aren't?
I'm so fucking sick and tired of the superior dipshittery bias of eating, exercise, and other bullshit.
What the fuck was the world like BEFORE the goddamn Hippie attitude crept in? Peoiple ate what they bought from the store. They lived, they created and life was good. Now every crack pot asshole wnats to be some kind of snob just so they can eek out a teeny amount of superiority.
If you really need your tastebuds as a standard of quality become a fucking wine taster. At least then you will have a real reason for all the snobbery and buffoonery.
Well Gully, at least they are not making YOU eat their food.
pods
I think Gully has offered himself up as the whiping post to help get the facts across to other readers..
someone has to be the bad guy so that the good guys can get the message out there, if you know what I mean..
wink wink nudge nudge
Having a Devil's advocate is a very good thing. Echo chambers are very dangerous. Nothing worse than ignoring facts because your beliefs are beliefs and not sound judgment based on facts.
Gully has a point about "organic". I think organic jumped the shark when Walmart started to look into it. As tmosely said, local is much preferred to organic, as local produce is allowed to ripen on the vine, allowing more phytonutrients to be produced.
pods
a real smart girl said these words the other day and they have stuck with me..
who's your farmer? _________________________
who's your banker? _________________________
where's your money? _______________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sti1xMOYj0
she warned of the hosuing problems.. she was the head of Department of Housing under Bush.
Fitts served as managing director and member of the board of directors of the Wall Street investment bank Dillon, Read & Co. Inc., as Assistant Secretary of Housing and Federal Housing[1] Commissioner at the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development in the first Bush Administration, and was the president of Hamilton Securities Group, Inc., an investment bank and financial software developer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Austin_Fitts
View history as to when petroleum based fertilizers entered the agricultural industry.
aannnnddddd thhheennnnn!?
Just think, if food were produced the same way now as it was 100 years ago, its price would probably be ten times as much. (And it would taste better and be better for you, but you believe what you want about that.) Subsidized industrialization of food production has its own built-in hedonics!
"What the fuck was the world like BEFORE the goddamn Hippie attitude crept in?"
The world before the world you are proposing was organic and locally grown. This is another problem you have. I was alive then and I remember it.
BTW, lose the bold font. It makes you look hysterical.
Bicycle:
I find your comment intriguing... this is not a troll comment or a slam by the way. I am a trained physician, I am considered "granola" by many, I grew up in San Francisco and I ride my bike to work 12.5 miles each way 90% of the time, I eat organic and local as well. I belong to a CSA. (community supported agriculture). I refer patients for Yoga and Accupuncture more than I do Orthopedics. So I'd LOVE for your comment to be supportable.
Here is my question:
Have you done a blind taste test?
I have heard your comment (organic tastes way better) for many years now from many pro-organic people. thus, I have done taste tests with my hippie friends (these are people who haven't seen the inside of a Supermarket in years). What I've found: many times they can't tell the difference in many cases. I've found that their experience correlates more with what I tell them compared to what the product actually is.
my hypothesis: most of the time we don't just eat raw food. Instead we cook it, we season it, we do all sorts of things to change the flavor. Thus, harder to really tell a major taste difference.
Now as I've said elsewhere on this thread, I have found that some products are very easily discernable by taste such as chicken (better) and peppers (worse)... so I'm not saying that there is no taste difference ever. What I'm wondering is whether or not you've truly done a BLIND taste test (where you didn't know which product was which).
Hmm..
Dude I guarantee that very few here know the taste of fresh handpicked produce. But goddamn it they know the flavor of store bought organic vs store bought non-organic.
Fresh picked will blow their minds even if it isn't organic.
I have peach and apple trees, it makes what you buy in the store taste like came from a wax fruit bowl.
Zackly. Organic vs non-organic.... who cares. Farm fresh wins hands down.
Nothing beats fresh from the garden.
"Have you done a blind taste test?"
Yes. And lose the bold font or people will think you are Gully under another alias gaming the discussion.
They never define 'store bought' and 'local organic' very well. The difference between a green-picked, gas ripened, 'hot-house' tomato or a locally grown high-tunnel tomato from a mild-climate picked when ripe during the winter? You can SEE that difference, taste is a forgone conclusion. A chain grocery that buys local produce which is vine ripe and one that supplies local 'organic' vine ripe? Doubtful anyone could tell the difference except maybe the organic farmer themselves. All the major grocery chains use gas ripening along with most of the packing houses. I just picked my first pineapple off one of my plants, it was yellow, and you could smell it from 10 feet away. The taste was incredible, in fact the only one I've ever had that was better was one from a field in Costa Rica we stopped in on an ATV tour. But when they pick them for shipping in CR, they're as green and unripe as you can get. They only grow them to get them to size, everything else happens when it gets off the ship here. Given the produce found in a 'typical' supermarket, yes, I can tell the difference between that and what I pick, even when I don't know which was which? How do I know? Because most of my extras go to neighbors and when I go over for dinners I've had salsas and gazpachos made wiith both my tomatos and store bought; strawberry shortcake with my strawberries and theirs(no comparison there at all), etc. And I'm more often right than not when I ask, is this mine? Taste and texture vary widely but if you eat enough of the real foods I think your taste buds and your body is going to tell you what's good and what's not so good...
Locally grown food tastes better because it is picked closer to ripeness. No more, no less.
If you think organic food tastes better than non-organic with a similar level of ripeness, do a double blind study, and you will find that your senses are lying to you. The opposite is true.
tmosley
"Locally grown food tastes better because it is picked closer to ripeness."
Doesn't matter if it sits on a shelf for a day or two. The sugar in Corn sturns into starch very rapidly.
You want to buy local food, pick it yourself and process it as swiftly as possible. Can it, freeze it, cook it.
Otherwise it loses flavor.
A few thoughts here:
1) remember that taste is VERY subjective, and changes based on one's past experience. For instance, a person used to eating Indian Food will likely find English Food Bland, whereas a Brit might find it subtle but flavorful. the Indian may find Indian food just right, but the Brit may think it's on fire. This is also why for instance Americans really like overly salty foods, because it's been used for years as a cheap flavoring agent. Also why many people like their mother's apple pie more than their mother-in-law's apple pie. Thus, people who are used to eating Organic food may find organic tastes better to them because they're used to that taste, whereas people eating non-organic are used to that taste. In my own experience, I've found that many pro-organic people really can't taste the difference, although they think they can. (if you blind taste test them, which I have done). But again, it depends on the product, as I said above. Organic chicken breasts are WAY smaller than nonorganic as example, so easy to tell. Organic red peppers are rarely fully red as example... so again they look/taste different.
2) There has been a lot of studies about nutritional value of organic vs non-organic food, and you are right it isn't compelling. But please remember that there are differences between foods... so one may need to look at EACH food. (for instance organic vs nonorganic peppers, chicken, beets, sugar, and so on). we may find that some products do better organically nutrition wise, and others do not. Overall affect on human life does not appear to be great.
3) thus, this is why I think we should focus on what really is provable... the effects on the environment and the sustainability of the various methods, and leave the other stuff on the sidelines.
On a side note, I don't think it's a scam. I think that there are very valid arguments for organic, but that people overstate some arguments and embellish other areas. Such is capitalism.
as I said: I am far more interested in buying LOCAL compared to ORGANIC, but I do enjoy both if possible. There are limits though. (I'll pay $5 vs $2 for chicken breasts, but I will not pay $3 vs $0.80 per pepper).
but part of that is a fake comparison, because the $2 chicken and $0.8 pepper is SUBSIDIZED by the govt, whereas the $5 chicken and $3 pepper is not.
This is why I advocate: getting rid of subsidies, mandating GMO labeling as example.
Hmm...
I'm all for self raised food. I'm all for 4H raised food. I'm all for buying your own little piglets and chicks and feed while having a local farm raise them. No issue there.
A few years ago I learned about this farmer in down south. he was rasing and slaughtering not only for himself but for friends and neighbors. The gopvernment shut him down.
The deal was when he slaughtered his animals he treated them lovingly and humanely. But when the government shut him down he was forced to take those animals to the slaughterhouse. That trip alone bred fear into the animals which taints the flavor of the meat.
So unless your animals are slaughtered individually by people who understand fear taints the flavor it doesn't matter how "organic" the animal is raised.
See everyone focuses on the feed and not the death.
Consider than the next time you peruse those organic Chickens.
Organic was hijacked a long time ago Gully.We stay completely away from the term and just use the term pastured. There is zero doubt that pastured cows, pastured chickens, pastured chicken eggs, pastured rabbits and forest fed hogs are a much healthier alternative to confinement food.
Below is an analysis , from Mother Earth News, on pastured Hen eggs.
• 1/3 less cholesterol
• 1/4 less saturated fat
• 2/3 more vitamin A
• 2 times more omega-3 fatty acids
• 3 times more vitamin E
• 7 times more beta carotene
I haven't heard of forest fed hogs. How are they different from feral hogs? Seems to me that they would become riddled with parasites, and all the exercise would make the meat tough, like it does for feral hogs.
They are confined by electric strand fence to a few acres of forest. Under this condition, along with age , the meat is not tough. Our hog density is 2 to 3 hogs per acre, so parasites are not a problem...
Ok, that makes sense.
Feral hogs are a huge problem in Texas, and I wouldn't touch the mean of anything bigger than a piglet for anything but dog food (after heavy cooking to kill the parasites). I assumed the parasites came from living in the woods, but they roam in very large packs, so it makes sense that it would be a population density problem.
Also, we rotate them out when they eat down their acre of the forest...Also, they can't wallow in their drinking water...
good stuff Hulk and of course local has more nutrient given you are eating it sooner to its picking. A lot of nutrient loss occurs with time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin
I would like to see the proof of you giving people blind taste tests.
You argue and then agree.....are you on steroids or are you on here just to clog up space?
I would like to see the proof of you giving people blind taste tests.
You argue and then agree.....are you on steroids or are you on here just to clog up space?
I live on the west coast. I replaced the enire lawn and gave away my lawn mower several years ago. Every year my vegetable garden has grown bigger as I learn more. Last winter I sucessfully grew Brocolli, Brussels sprouts, Bok Choy cabbage, Onions and Garlic. This summer I had two tpyes of tomatos, 5 plants, Onions, Garlic, Bell and hot peppers, Green beans, sweet peas, snow peas, yellow squash, Italian squash, and eggplant. Plus I put in an aspargus bed. I gave away about 20 bags of vegetable and tomatoes to my neighbors and walkers from the area. I just put two large freezer bags of diced bell peppers in the freezer for next winter, to go with the peas and stuff already frozen. I just pulled all out except for the peppers and I am preparing the beds for the winter garden. The nicest thing is I enjoy using fresh vegetables they have a longer shelf life and I pick them at peak flavor and texture. I get to share with the neighborhood, and have generated a lot of interest in vegetable gardens. I think I eat better, since I only have to shop about 1/3 as much as I used to. Then there is the fact that I am saving a lot of money doing this. My kids and grands kids are learning from it too as I pay them to help me water and harvest when they come and visit every week. I have met many nice people who walk by on the sidewalk and want to talk. One regular actually stopped on the sidewalk yesterday, to examine the bare dirt I just turned over in the front yard. Not to mention people actually stop their cars and get out and ask me about my gardens. It has been plus for the community and it gives me good exercise. I think the neighborhood kids have more respect for me for this as well.
I have many friends in town who have been using their "yard" space for growing, most have done so for years - as it's legal to keep chickens, most do, and a few are also beekeepers - all in neighbourhoods!
We all get together when planning the yearly crops, so as to get more variety - as we share harvests - with a few trained chefs in the mix, we end up with quite the variety, and it allows folk to grow what interests them most - I'm into the herbs, as I like to make tinctures & infusions, & we all barter/share within the group.
As you describe, neighbours out on walks often marvel at, say, heirloom tomatoes growing right next to the sidewalk, and there's usually someone around to offer a "sample" - this has resulted in many getting advice on how to prepare the yards for their own gardens - it's really heartening to see people doing away with useless grass lawns, and growing/sharing food locally! not to mention less weekend mower noise pollution. . .
enjoyed your post!
Yeah, and the UK's Food Standards Agency, was probably writting in the 50' "based on 50 years' worth of collected evidence concluded that "there is no good evidence that consumption of TOBACCO is harmfull to health in relation to what it content." Or something like that...
I just don't truste these kind of "agency"...
If you remember, that's the same kind of agency that was saying couple years ago that you need a "H1N1 flu shot"...
Yeah, and the UK's Food Standards Agency, was probably writting in the 50' "based on 50 years' worth of collected evidence concluded that "there is no good evidence that consumption of TOBACCO is harmfull to health in relation to what it content." Or something like that...
I just don't truste these kind of "agency"...
If you remember, that's the same kind of agency that was saying couple years ago that you need a "H1N1 flu shot"...
http://www.apha.org/advocacy/policy/policysearch/default.htm?id=1361
Perhaps you need to read something other than the standard government bullshit.
You also have to take into account their criterion for "Organic". It varies quite a bit by definition from country to country as do specifics on labeling, standards, etc. A study in one part of the world will have different results from one conducted in another. As to the claim of their being no discernible difference between organic and conventional (big ag), I (personally) disagree. Major difference in taste and the effect on your overall well being (statement based on MY PERSONAL experience, not scientific study) is huge.
I would class it as "natrual" rather than "organic". No hybrid seeds, no commercial fertilizers and growth according to what the land will sustain year to year. Proper crop rotation is important. Different yields deplete and return different nutrients from and back to the soil. Heirloom seeds to garner your next planting of seeds. Can't do that with hybrid seeds, you won't know what will come out of the ground- maybe nothing, maybe a different variety than what the parent plant was or an inferior strain that doesn't produce.
Bottom line: Grow it yourself with heirloom seeds and you'll be healthier, it will cost you less and you'll be happier with the sense of accomplishment and pride taken from self sustenance. Just my .02 worth.
Gully Foyle, the reason to eat organic is not because there is a difference in taste or nutritional value. Those are straw man arguments.
It is because you want to avoid eating pesticides and herbicides. Cut chemicals out of your diet unless you like cancer.
For fucks sake, for the past couple of years Automatic Earth has been discussing this, producing primers, and setting up meetings around the world on the rise of localization and the impact of a failing economy.
Where are the goddamn articles from Stoneliegh and Illargi? Where are the transcripts of their media appearences?
Maybe a group of you dipshits could book Stoneleigh then share the highlights.
That is if you can pull your heads out your Gold and Gun filled asses.
Gully Foyle- Please research 'Agenda 21'...theyre already way ahead of you making private food production illegal.
SheepDog-One
Sorry, I just don't buy that shit anymore.
Way back when the idea was put forth that the plan was to increase the standard of living of the rest of the world while lowering that of the US. That has come to pass. It is the way to implement a one world government.
But we are now seeing the advance of a very Grey world. No one has to do any population control because in the next two decades the world will see very serious problems from low birth rates and increasing elderly life spans.
Either way the problem with conspiracy theories is once someone outlines one you can't make a buck off it anymore. You need to create new and better ones. Like when Hollywood remakes movies.
The other problem is 95% of those theories actually come from PSYOP groups out to distract from what is really happening.
Personally I don't give a shit who holds the reins, someone is always going to. The only real freedom is in ones own mind, it's nonattachment. All things must pass, good follows bad in an endless cycle. We are fools for seeking asnything concrete in an ever changing world.
Free your mind baby and the rest will follow. I'd rather be a Zen idiot in rags than fearing someone is taking away shit I never really owned anyway.
A man walking across a field encounters a tiger. He fled, the tiger chasing after him. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of a wild vine and swung himself over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Terrified, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger had come, waiting to eat him. Two mice, one white and one black, little by little began to gnaw away at the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine in one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!
Just ignore reality, even though Obama has just SIGNED such laws, surely it will all just go away.
SheepDog-One
Yes I am seeing ALL my neighbors gardnes being over run by men in Black armor with automatic weapons. Wow look they are hitting those squash with flame throwers even as I type this.
Sometimes paranoid means you actually have enemies, others times that your meds have failed.
a very bold statement.
buzzsaw99
I'm too lazy to correct that shit.
Really I want a font with male genitalia so I can make BALSY statements.
Bold is easier to read. I don't know what all the bitching is about. It's writing a whole post in all caps that is annoying.
They will have to pry my tomatoes out of my cold, dead fingers!
That would be very messy, indeed.
Manthong
"They will have to pry my tomatoes out of my cold, dead fingers!
That would be very messy, indeed."
That reminds me that SCOTUS just overturned the ban on Crush films.
armed federal officers raided the Gibson guitar factory and made off with millions worth of wood. Gibson sued to get the wood back and still hasn't been accused of violating any US law.
You dn't think the feds will come after your little farm. They went after the Amish that took pies across state lines. On every holiday there used to be a pie stand off an exit of US 71. It isn't there anymore because the government went after them for not paying taxes on the goods sold.
I am waiting for a local farm to be shut down for selling corn for $2 a dozen. At Giant Eagle sweet corn sells for $.50 an ear. That farm is causing harm to a large corporation that can not be allowed.
adr
I wouldn't trust Amish food, I've known people to get worms and other diseases from their food.
I don't give a shit abiut Gibson.
I'm in a rural farming area, and the biggest problem is farms going under because they can't make mortgage payments and the kids don't want to be farmers anymore. Something similar happened to the wood working community logally. Kids didn't want to be woodworkers so those skills faded.
Sure it's nice to think that the English have targeted the Amish for a new progrom based ton their food preferences. Who doesn't love a new goofy conspiracy theory.
Just like those raw milk drinking fools. Yep everyone wants their kids to get diseaes FROM UNPASTEURIZED MILK. Serves the little bastards right.
It would be nice if people focused their time and energy on real problems instead of drifgting away into the world of the weird. Fuck I read Rense and WRH. But I'm still waiting for Bigfoot to cross my path.
Nothing better than forest fed Bigfoot Gully!
"You dn't think the feds will come after your little farm."
There's POSSIBILITY and then there's PROBABILITY... The probability is decreasing by each passing day. Revenues are down, and eventually all such actibity will cease (think conservation of energy).
Stay low-key and be in-good with your neighbors. The man behind the curtain will turn out to be the strawman...
www.drpasswater.com/nutrition.../Murray_FDA_part_1_final.html - Cached You +1'd this publicly. UndoFDA Injustices Against The Health Food Industry
Whole Foods Magazine. July 2005. FDA Injustices Against. The Health Food Industry. An interview with Frank Murray: Part 1. By Richard A. Passwater, Ph.D. ...
?
FDA Injustices Against The Health Food Industry Part 2
www.drpasswater.com/nutrition.../Murray_FDA_Struggle_final.htm... - CachedSimilar You +1'd this publicly. Undo
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Testimony > Health Fraud - Food and Drug Administration
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Jul 24, 2009 – Promotions for fraudulent products appear daily in newspaper and magazine ads ... FDA's mission is to protect and promote the public health. ... that we strive to meet our mission of protecting consumers against health fraud. ...
Health Care Reform Bill Gives Power to FDA Shut Down Organic ...
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The Obama Health Care reform Bill gives the FDA power to shut down the ... and it works against organic farmers to grow their produce without Monsanto GMO's ...
Timeline of FDA raids on raw milk farmers, dietary supplement ...
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Aug 10, 2011 – (NaturalNews) The US Food and Drug Administration has a long history of ... Timeline of FDA raids against farmers, health clinics and dietary ...
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1 FDCA §§ 201(s), 402(a)(2)(C)(i), 409; 21 U.S.C. §§ 321(s), 342(a ...
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that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) take enforcement action against Organic Milling. Corporation. That company is selling an adulterated product, Back ...
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Oh you may not see it in your yard, now, but many cases are in courts already from all over the country. But hey if you think its actually not happening and ramping up, ok go with that.
The private Monsanto investigators are a fact. They only investigate bioengineered crops- mainly corn and soybeans. You don't have to be a dick about it. You don't care- fine.
Hear Hear !!!!
Absolutely correct !
I believe that lots of us read Automatic Earth. I have been reading AE since they were a part of 'The Oil Drum'... years ago.
I don't understand your beef? Are you assuming that none of the posters here visit other sites?
Those folks at TAE are good people, but the way they cling to their deflation argument is a bit of a turn-off. All they have to do is read history books to see that while deflation may nominally underlie the events of a credit bubble bursting, it is the human response of money printing that results in inflation and eventually hyperinflation of the currency.
I didn't have a problem with AE until IIlargi decided that 'gold is in a bubble', basically saying that fiat will be with us forever... at least, that was my take on his comments. I don't see events playing out that way but it's their site and they can believe and post what they want. I still read the site.
Inflation and deflation? Yeah, some of both when looked at from the citizens perspective... which is all that matters to the vast majority of citizens.
Right now, home values down. Food up. Used toys down. Fuel up. Dollar down. PMs up. etc. The Fed is attempting to off set deflation by printing electronic fiat, holding interest rates down and proping equities with PPT (or open mkt operations if you prefer)... or, so the story is spun. What they have really accomplished is a prop job for TBTF banks while casting America adrift.
What do you see as a driver for hyperinflation now. I think for HI to happen there would need be a pick up in the velocity of money and, maybe, pay increases. I see HI given time but don't see a driver for it now.
I expect the next initiative, either fiscal or monetary or both, will be a bigger rescue attempt of underwater mortgage holders... which is also beneficial for TBTF institutions... but it won't be spun that way.
I've gleaned from the various arguments that hyperinflation comes about when a currency is no longer trusted. People would try and pawn off the currency in ever-larger amounts looking for takers.
Increased velocity would increase inflation, but it wouldn't necessarily lead to hyperinflation.
You can get a DVD or stream their presentations for a small nominal fee. Stoneleigh give s a great presentation - I saw her in Austin, TX last year I think it was. Took my wife to get the big picture.
They can eat Chinese in Chinatown, Italian in little Italy, Pork in Wallstreet....
You name it, they've got it!
We already have! Just check out the lines at Taco Bell and McDonalds! Muhahaahaaa!
If you think commercial food is good and the Gov't is looking out for the comsumer look closer.
http://tinyurl.com/y8ve94n
i guess this means if you live in ny, la, etc. you are screwed. there are some positive sides to peak oil, i suppose.
soylent green.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/international/japanese-scientists-creates-m...
Radioactive shitmeat.....
That is just seriously messed up.
That's some expensive shit.
"overabundance of sewage mud" eh? god forbid they just make HUMANURE, compost that shit! guess it's more "scientific" to make "food" from it, the mind boggles. . .
Amazing, isn't it? I now know where the term "Eat shit and bark at the moon" exists in the real world. It's not an insult any more, it's the science of human crap steak and wheat gluentin protein dog food (link for the dog food: http://www.solidgoldnorthwest.com/products/pro_dry/pro_barking.html ).
EDIT: To whit, if anyone tells you to "Eat shit and bark at the moon" they are not insulting you. They are actually telling you to enjoy a steak and feed your dog. Friendly advice.
god damned peak oil hippies!
How telling....
I guess it is not so simple that a caveman can get it...
Until property taxes are eliminated, there is no such thing as local food. It all belongs to the government whenever they so choose to take it.
Absolute BINGO ! Give that man a gold star and an organic tomato. There is ultimately no such thing as freedom, financial or otherwise, even if you are completely debt free, car paid off and house paid off as long as you have to pay for a car tag, apply for a drivers license and most importantly, pay property tax.
If you are free from all other obligations but still fail to pay property tax you will find out one morning from a man with a badge and a gun that the state owns your property. Resist that man with a badge and a gun and he has full rights by the state to murder you in front of your wife and children.
Which is why I call bullshit on libertararians and tea-partiers. It looks great on paper and sounds great coming out of the politicians' mouths, but in reality you will never be free.
That depends on how many people start firing back. Government depends on the good will of the prople to follow the law. When that changes from the abuse of authoritarian government, all bets are off.
Sheep are too stupid to know what good will is and too lazy to get pissed off when that good will is being abused.
Could you perhaps add even more hyperbole to your post?
First of all, there is probably few (or mayb no) places on Earth without taxes. thus, you'll just have to deal. But if I were to humor you:
Where do you get your claim that taxation = no freedom?
Even our founding fathers understood that taxation was a REQUIREMENT. Their call to arms was not "PROPERTY TAXES ARE ANTI FREEDOM!", their call was "Taxation without Representation".
They then set up a system where PROPERTY owners got to Vote (Freedom) and in exchange the property owners had to PAY TAXES. The Slaves (who had no freedom) did not have to pay taxes.
Thus, traditionally in the US I'd argue that paying taxes is a RIGHT one gets related to FREEDOM.
You have freedom with regards to property taxes... don't buy property. done. and you know what, your life will be pretty darn good so spare me the woe. (yes yes I know, if you rent then you are paying rent to someone paying property taxes... so sad).
otherwise, there may be some unincorporated island somewhere on Earth that you can go.
Do I like property taxes? of course not. I also hate paying property tax on my fully paid off home. But to equate property taxes with some major assault on Freedom is a stretch.
How's that representation "thingy" working out for you or for our country, nowadays?
Besides....it is an absolute fact that we do have repsresentation in this country. All our shitty politicians absolutely represent the ethical, moral, and constituionally aware state of the American populace.
Also, in a world of property taxes, you pay rent to the state. I rent now to a landlord. If I owned....and I did at one time....I paid rent to a bank, which is called interest. I also paid rent to the state, which is called property tax.
Let me repeat....you are not free unless you are free to do with your property as you see fit. There are places in certarin states where I could not farm and sell produce if I see fit. The state has that right since they are the landlord by right of property tax collection. They have the right to tell you how your property is zoned and how it can be used. Even if that contradicts the actual zoning regulations. At any time the state can change its mind and enforce the laws any which way they wish. They did before the Revolution....they do it to this day.
I am no anarchist.....just someone who calls bullshit on the populer delusions and fantasies of those who hold up freedom as some sort of religious artifact when in fact the facts on the ground contradict those delusions.
The call to arms for the next revolution;
PROPERTY TAXES ARE ANTI-FREEDOM!
You might want to study up a little. Property taxes were unusual for the first 100 years. The government received revenue from tariffs, duties and the sale of land- thus Manifest Destiny.
Taxes are a phenomenon of the 20th century. Taxes are the means the state pays for police power. It is the police power of the state that destroys freedom. Learn a little.
jumbotron... Without taxation to support a limited government (which is how the present debacle started) then there is anarchy. I don't like property taxes but I pay them. The alternative is no rule of law... which is admittedly way over abused in the last 30 years... and that would mean we are all our own police force. Give that a lot of thought.
I never wanted to be a cop, still don't.
>Without taxation to support a limited government (which is how the present debacle started) then there is anarchy
Is that a bad thing? Where I live there is a "burger anarchy": if I want a burger I can choose from a large number of competing restaurants with varying qualities and prices. And if I'm not happy with ANY of them I can always open up my own burger restaurant!
Security services and arbitration services are no less economic goods than are burgers. And economic science shows that competing providers can provide economic goods at higher quality and lower prices than a monopoly can - especially one that obtains funds coercively. If you learn more about economic science (particularly Rothbard) you may find yourself prefering "anarchy" after all.
Property tax is a form of collectivism. All property oweners pay into the collective to be supplied with a collective set of services.
If you are a liberatarian/tea partier and you are currently railing against abuses of our "Freedoms" and screaming about the liberals move to "Collectivism" as I hear every day from Rush and Sean and Neal and Ann and Laura...ad nauseum....but still support the collectivism that is property tax then you my friend are self deluded at best, hypocritical at worst.
The "essential services" provide by the state from the collective taxation of property can be supplied by private means. Then I would truly be free to purchase those or not. If I chose not to no one from any of those private entities could stake a claim on my property and kick me out at the point of a gun.
NOW....would those private services be ANY BETTER than what is provided now? Would those private, for profit organizations be any LESS LIABLE to corruption than their government counterparts?
That is a seperate issue....and with ample evidence that private organizations are no less succeptible to corruption than government then one has to chose between the lesser of two evils. At least with government you have the nominal opportunity to vote the bastards out and replace them with better ones, all the while the essential services provide by property tax continue.
Fire a private firm or firms providing essential services and you are left to the Darwinian dog eat dog world.
We all know this intuitively which is why we give up some of our freedoms and become collectivists when it suits our needs.
But at least we can be honest about it. And that is why I start my thread with the "hyperbolic" rant about you do not own anything in reality and are not truly free if you pay property tax.
"libertarian"
"Rush and Sean and Neal and Ann and Laura"
*DOES NOT COMPUTE*
Those people are not libertarians, and shame on you for claiming they are. Those are fascists, the opposite of libertarians.
Understand that each party in the US is fascist while in the majority, and libertarian while in the minority. The Dems wanted nothing more than to stop the unjust wars, and stop the erosion of our personal liberties when the Republicans were in office, but now they are SILENT on both issues. Similarly, the Republicans wail and moan about taxes, and collectivism, and all manner of economic libertarian issues while they aren't in control, and similarly fall silent when they regain the White House and congress.
Also, wtf are you doing listening to those idiots in the first place? They will rot your mind.
And as to your other assertion about private companies being worse than governments, I would like to know where I go to vote out a given bureaucracy. That is who provides the "essential services". Further, when the government contracts a private company to provide said service, that is a government provided monopoly, which is is FASCIST, not free market.
Also note that your post disregards the existance of charities which provide services in a manner more effective than governemnts, as they have to compete for donations based on who spends the least on bureaucracy and provides the most services. The fact that there are multiple charities in existance for a given service means there is competition. Not exactly dog-eat-dog.
<Sigh>
Neal Boortz is most certainly Libertarian, he says so himself.
The others squawk impotently like libertarians on issues of freedom. That is why I lump them together.
I do not listen to them on a regular basis anymore. I do tune in from time to time to see if any of them truly have gotten pissed off enough to call bullshit on the Republican Party and are now calling for revolution against the entire system.
In regards to charities......give me a break. When I lost my house after losing my job during the beginning of the ongoing Great Collapse, I went to charity after charity, my folks, my wifes folks, church organizations, my own church, job placement services, the government...... you name it....I tried it, called it, did it.
Did not save us from living in a pop-up camper in the woods for over a year.
When an entire nation goes broke, and the need becomes a tsunami, there can never be enough charities, which are dependent on either a broke government or donations from people who now have no job or much less disposable income, to take care of the needs of those affected.
You actually make my point very well with your statement...."And as to your other assertion about private companies being worse than governments, I would like to know where I go to vote out a given bureaucracy. That is who provides the "essential services". Further, when the government contracts a private company to provide said service, that is a government provided monopoly, which is is FASCIST, not free market. "
If that private entity hired by the government was actucally run by someone of principles, he or she would tell the government to fuck off.,...I will not be a party to fascism. But what company today would do that....when in the capitalist system your primary job is to ensure a profit for your company and to your shareholders. And what better way to secure that than by taking a government contract thus securing your company a monopoly and thus monopoly pricing power?
The answer is ....none. No company head would do that.
Also you make another great point which bolsters my argument that even libertarians, whom I agree with are full of bullshit....."Understand that each party in the US is fascist while in the majority, and libertarian while in the minority.
True my friend.....even of the libertarians. But they will never be given the reigns of power anyway because the American people do not want freedom.
You only get freedom and maintain it through bloodshed and the gun. Ask Thomas Jefferson.
>Resist that man with a badge and a gun and he has full rights by the state to murder you in front of your wife and children.
FYI libertarians pretty much agree with your position:
"He argued that taxation represents coercive theft on a grand scale, and "a compulsory monopoly of force" prohibiting the more efficient voluntary procurement of defense and judicial services from competing suppliers" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard
Search 'allodial title'.
libertarians seem to be a bit childish to me -- they want the freedom but they don't want the responsibility that comes with this.
I can't speak for all libertarians but many who study Austrian economics - known as Rothbardians, Austro-libertarians, or anarchocapitalists - absolutely believe in personal responsibility. For example, someone who commits murder is logically estopped from objecting to violations of their own body (i.e. the death penalty). The decades of scholarly research and thought behind these theories is immense.
If you want childish, listen to the red-vs-blue tards debate. If you want coherent and satisfying, read von Mises and Rothbard et al.
I gave up on Austrian economics after a few minutes on the Von Mises website, and pretty much nailed the coffin shut after reading Schiff's "How an Economy Grows and Why it Crashes", in which he explicitly states that fish become more abundant after you catch them (????), and that labour has "productivity" because people can make a net and then somehow magically "produce" fish with this. What hubris and arrogance, Austrians put zero effort into understanding how fish are actually produced, arrogantly believing that humans can create fish simply by swinging a net. I have very little regard for imaginary though experiments as proof of a theory. What's wrong with real world experiments? Why do Austrians need imaginary experiments?
Here's the problem: with zero regulation, by catching a fish, that Austrian schooled libertarian fisherman is indeed impacting other people, because there are now LESS fish available in the ocean for other people to catch, because despite what Schiff says, fish actually become LESS abundant after you catch them! I'm pretty sure of that!
Agreed.
As I said in my post above, all proprieters of secular ideas that then use pseudo-scientific thinking to hoist that idea into the realm of a quasi-religious dogma fail to realize that reality always trumps ideology.
And in the end, reality makes them look stupid. It happened to the Communists. It will happen to the libertarians/tea partiers as well.
Economics is a science- not psuedo or otherwise. The trains of logic must transverse the scientific method- and economics does. Your ignorance of the subject withstanding. Tea partiers are not libertarians, in fact, many libertarians are not libertarians. Take the time to learn what you are talking about.
When various groups co-opt groups and ideas, it is important to understand the history of the development of different concepts. It is easy to see where the changes begin- whether by infiltration (Palin, Gingrich, Bachmann, etc in the tea party to turn it towards republicanism) or through accomadation (libertarians and republicans).
In the end, reality is subjective, it only trumps something in your own mind.
Spoken like a true religious zealot.
Economics can never be a science simply because you have no economy without humans.
Humans are irrrevocably corrupt. You can never scientifically explain the human mind nor the human heart. Both of which control and influence the markets.
Ergo, economics, while having the veneer of science, can be hypothesized on paper in a controlled environment scientifically, ultimately fails the scientific method simply because it is controlled by psychology....which is a pseudo-science.
I put Tea Partiers in with Liberatarians simply because they impotently bitch about Freedom. I know they are not technically libertarians but they are equally ineffectual as are libertarians when it comes to affecting a sea change in the minds of the populace concerning the concept of freedom.
I am all for real world experiments. Let's do it.
Uhhh, there are lots of fish in the ocean. Capturing more fish allows more people to create more capital.
So you are saying it is easier to catch a fish with your hands than with a net?
I think you need to examine your logic. Something is clearly AMISS when you can't even understand so simple a concept presented in so simple a format.
Instead of visiting a website, why don't you invest some time and read something from the Main Austrian Economists. Rothbard is the easiest to read , though his ideas are a bit of an offshoot. Ralph Raico is excellent. Hazelitt as well. When you have the patience, Von Mises is as good and tough as it gets.
You need to understand the basics of economic theory. You cannot learn this in ten minutes. Your investment didn't pay off, wow, I wonder why?
Always a problem when you take a highly subjective word such as "freedom" and then take off on a path that assumes that everyone intuitively knows what it means...
In some ways I get it, but in other ways I see humans being humans, that it's all part of deception (as is the case with nature), part of self-preservation- "freedom" is the code word that allows us to do whatver it takes, even if that might mean shitting on someone else.
And this leads to the point that the very notion of defining what "freedom" means means eroding freedom itself. It's a trap...
I've tended to accept what Bob Dylan's Gotta Serve Somebody lyrics: (though I don't "serve" the prescribed entities):
Gotta Serve SomebodyYou may be an ambassador to England or France
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody
You might be a rock ’n’ roll addict prancing on the stage
You might have drugs at your command, women in a cage
You may be a businessman or some high-degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody
You may be a state trooper, you might be a young Turk
You may be the head of some big TV network
You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame
You may be living in another country under another name
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody
You may be a construction worker working on a home
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome
You might own guns and you might even own tanks
You might be somebody’s landlord, you might even own banks
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody
You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
You may be workin’ in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair
You may be somebody’s mistress, may be somebody’s heir
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody
Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody
You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray
You may call me anything but no matter what you say
You’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody
Copyright © 1979 by Special Rider Music
Jumbotron you have reached a high level of nonsense. Libertarians are (the only ones) complaining about the taxes and the licenses, and want to be rid of them, and rid of the agencies and the confiscations etc etc. By the first two paras in your rant- YOU ARE ONE OF US.
Then you denounce us in the third para? As for the Tea Party, they started out right enough, then got taken over by the occupation.
<sigh>
Let me try to explain slowly.
It matters not your belief. Yes I am libertarian and more than slightly anarchic in my thinking and philosophy on the ways that human should conduct themselves and structure their societies.
I am also a student of history and brutally honest...even to myself.
Any and every human construct of society, particularly those with a utopian bent, are doomed to failure. That is why I can occupy a seemingly contradictory space that confuses you and most others. That is to say I can hold libertarian/anarchic beliefs AS WELL as rain on the parade of those who hold those same beliefs up as quasi-religious dogma.
TO WIT: I can believe in Santa Claus. The concept of Santa Claus is great. I can wish the world would share a Coke and act like Santa Claus. Von Mises and Rothbard could extol the scientific virtues of Santa Clausianism.
But Santa Claus fails the test of history and reality.
The human condition has alway been and will continue to be, once the veneer of civility is ripped away by the failure of Western Capitalism and the decline of Democratic Republican thought, one of tyranny by the elites over the masses.
In fact we have had tyranny of the elites over the masses since the inception of this country. It's just the masses have been fooled into believing that they had a choice that was more civil than the gun that was used the first time they fought tyranny during the Revolution.
You are correct that Libertarians are the only ones complaining about taxes and licenses.
That's all you have the power to do.....namely....bitch and moan.
Are Chinese families way behind, or ahead of us Westerners?
Check out more of these fascinating photos:
http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/pictures/family-possessions-living-environments-of-chinese-families.html
Wheres the AK47?
government people only get that toy.
AH! So thats why their prized possession there is a 1970's black and white TV.
You mean the MAK-90? 'Subjects' are only allowed .177 air guns..
That's a fine rifle. I have more than one. Accurate, durable, NEVER jams. Milled reciever, 250 round drums available. Damn good.
http://www.dsarms.com/RPD%20Products/products/205/
you boys need to get away from the rim fired stuff.
Merely providing an illustration, not a testimony.
'Rim fired stuff'? How so?
.177 http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=10480_14627_14649_14653
The Boys were discussing the .177.. which I really like.. for the record.. I was kind of offering myself up to be wacked a little like Gully up above.
Or...
http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/rifles/ak-pattern-rifles/cPath/209_214
http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/rifles/fal%2C-hk%2C-cetme-clones/cPath/...
edit: Indeed it is. The first semi-auto rifle I ever fired so I have a soft spot for it.. ;) Subsequently, I secured few of the original Kalashnikov versions. Nice assault rifles.
Like shooting ducks in a barrel. Plenty of chinese to go arround.
LOL yea I caught that bit of unfortunate wording as well.
Once you go Amish, you never go back, bitchez
Is that a sex reference that I haven't heard of before?
Probably. You into buggy whips? Wait, I really don't want to know.
check out more about polyface in Michael Pollan's book called The Omnivore's Dilemma. It's an excellent read and really makes you think about the food in a different lights
Great book, A must read for the ZHer that eats. Wild boar hams UMMMMMMM..good
Cheap oil and other mineral inputs for ag and industry are gone with the wind, and going away much faster than anyone thought even as recently as 6 months ago. Prices for every kind of mineral ore is stuck at or near all time peaks. Iron ore recently hit fresh all-time records despite a global slowdown in steel production.
The trend is in: think small.
Gardening is a fun, relaxing and challenging (if it's done right) hobby that everyone should get into. Container gardens can be weed free and use less water and have huge yields (look up "global buckets" on Youtube) and if SHTF, you can then scale up. Trying to garden for the first time when it counts is a bad idea. Do one crop (like tomatoes) and get good at it. Then you can expand. Fresh produce tastes great and cheats Monsanto and Big AG out of their stranglehold profits....
Oh yeah.... Bitchez!
Great advice, MwP. I picked up urban container gardening a couple years ago and I agree, they produce a surprisingly nice garden. My first attempt was a bit agressive with pole beans, zuccini, carrots, green peppers, lettuce, cucumbers, tomatoes, basil, mint & rosemary. But first one worked out nice: http://imageshack.us/f/94/urbangarden.jpg/ Have subsequently expanded to raised beds.
Gardening is a fun, relaxing and challenging (if it's done right) hobby that everyone should get into. Container gardens can be weed free and use less water and have huge yields (look up "global buckets" on Youtube) and if SHTF, you can then scale up. Trying to garden for the first time when it counts is a bad idea. Do one crop (like tomatoes) and get good at it. Then you can expand. Fresh produce tastes great and cheats Monsanto and Big AG out of their stranglehold profits....
Oh yeah.... Bitchez!
Yep gardening is a fun relaxing and enriching experience....well until the SWAT team storms your garden and kills you for breaking Agenda 21 laws.
Ive been warning people about this for years, and its all coming to pass right in front of our eyes, and people STILL cant believe it!
SheepDog, I usually agree with your thoughts, however the UN can't find its way out of a closet with the door open, do you really think they have the teeth to accomplish Agenda 21?
Theyre already taking down private growers. Im following a local case here some guy is looking at land seizure and 10 years for growing tomatoes without permission. A man also just got sentenced to 75 years for filming police. I guess people can believe its not true all they like.
I have heard of some BS raids on small farms selling milk, eggs in Cali for trumped up FDA violations, but making it illegal for me to grow tomatoes for personal consumption?
Just wait and see. I'll tell you right now though, it will be done "for the children." Same with localized energy.
BILL GATES EXPOSING DEPOPULATION PLANS OF AGENDA 21 ON LIVE SHOW - YouTube
Local case. You're a kiwi, yes? I thought New Zealand was the last great hope and all that shit, just like you've been sayin?
No MF's have tried taking tomatoes out of this redneck's garden as of yet. You poor bastards need to re-arm yourselves.
I am yes, but presently living in Wyoming.
you have a local Wyoming guy being prosecuted for growing tomatoes?
Got a link?
2nd that... if it's that goddamn bad in what I thought was a safe haven then we're fo sho fucked up tough.
Of course he doesnt....because the sheepdog is full of shit....
No link, no belief. Zillions of people grow their own food. Could he have been busted for *selling it without various permits*? We so outnumber the guys with guns (and we have our own) - no way that's going to happen in the large. But local gov's can be crappy especially if an upstart starts taking business from someone who is "government friendly".
Show some real evidence or back down. The number of households in my county with fairly major home gardens nears 100%. You gotta be kidding.