This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Joel Salatin: How to Prepare for A Future Increasingly Defined By Localized Food & Energy
Submitted by Chris Martenson
Joel Salatin: How to Prepare for A Future Increasingly Defined By Localized Food & Energy
Joel Salatin, proprietor of Polyface Farms and highly-visible champion of sustainable farming, thinks modern humans have become so far removed from a natural connection to the food they eat, that we no longer have a true understanding of what "normal" food is.
The rise of Big Ag and factory farming over the past century has conditioned us to treat food mechanically (as something to be recoded and retooled) vs biologically. And we don't realize that for all our industrialization and optimization, we're actually getting less yield and less nutrition than natural-based processes can offer.
Whether we like it or not, the arrival of peak oil is going to force us to realize that our heavily-energy intensive practices can't continue at their current scale. And with world population still increasing exponentially, we'll need to find other, more sustainable, ways of growing our food.
"What we view today as "normal" I argue is simply not normal. Just think about if you wanted to go to town 120 years ago. If you wanted to go to town you actually had to go out and hook up a horse. That horse had to eat something, which means you had to have a patch of grass somewhere to feed that horse which meant you had to take care of some perennial in order to feed that horse in order to go to town. And so throughout history, you had these kinds of what I call ‘inherent boundaries’ or brakes on how much a single human could abuse the ecology.
And today, during this period of cheap energy, we’ve been able to extricate ourselves from that entire umbilical, if you will, and just run willy-nilly as if there is no constraint or restraint. And now we are starting to see some of the outcome of that boundless, untied progression. And so the chances are, the way to bet, is that in the future we are going to see more food localization, we are going to see more energy localization, we are going to see more personal responsibility in ecological lifestyle decisions because it's going to be forced on us to survive economically. We are going to have to start taking some accounting of these ecological principles."
Joel, his family, and the team at Polyface Farms dedicate themselves to developing environmentally, emotionally and economically-enhanced food prototypes and advocate for duplicating their production around the world.
In this interview, Chris and Joel explore what constitutes truly sustainable agriculture and the reasons why our current system has departed so far from it, as well as practical steps individuals can take to increase their own personal resiliency around the food they eat (in short: "find your kitchen", source your food locally, and grow some yourself).
Click here to listen to Chris' interview with Joel Salatin (runtime 44m:15s):
Report a Problem Playing the Podcast
Or click here to read the full transcript.
»
- 22077 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
This is the guy facing 75 years in IL...I am sure I can find a few links for people being raided by swat teams for selling raw terrorist milk. The lady in Detroit that got taken to court for having a garden in her front yard won fortunately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBwQyg9CjnI&feature=player_embedded#!
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/county-cites-farmer-for-612210.html
Here's a story about a guy who was fined for growing too much produce on his 2 acre city lot with out proper zoning. I believe he eventually got an attorney and worked it out. The real problem coming down the pike will be bureaucrats 'interpreting' the vaguely written Food Safety Act passed by CONgress last year.
SD-One,@10:59,
You are dead on.
Those pricks have added EVERY agency in the Fed Gub to the list to police Agenda 21................
I mean Depts that wouldn't know a Tare from a Wheatstalk.I saw that crap, and said people BETTER get ready for the Beast, cause his ass is on the way.
Anytime you can be arrested for backyard garden, you have a total fascist state.
Or worse.
And wait ill they do the IR flyovers, and your hydroponics get you arrested.
Think I am FOS<they already are doing this, have been for years, as an excuse for POT growers.
Soon to be Tomato growers.
Everyone should have a garden, I don't care if it is a herb garden in the kitchen window. I dont care if it is a single pot plant under a grow light, it is good for people to KNOW how the stuff is produced. Meat does not come in white freezer wrap or in a big mac.HEY and it's fun for the kids too.
Contrary to my hippie posts, I do have a small garden and enjoy the fruits of my labor, my wife swears my maters are better than the store tomatoes.
They are and for at least one very simple reason. You pick them ripe and don't transport them a few thousand miles before eating them. Any biochemist knows that a lot changes in a week of sitting disconnected from the plant. And almost all of it is for the worse. You should try asparagus - no comparison with the little bitter crap in the stores, the homegrown is more like candy, and all that is lost in shipping any distance.
Some people call me a hippie, but I'm more conservative than Bill Buckley was. Your label is far too simplistic and indicative of emotional vs rational thought.
I really don't have an emotional disconnect with hippies, its just a label covering an extremely wide group of people, I use it sarcastically for the most part although many I have met seem to be overly idealistic and liberal to the point of socialism. In many ways I could be considered a hippie, I garden, I have solar and wind power at my crappy shack in the forest, but I also eat meat, hunt, fish, believe the 2nd ammendment applies directly to me and am quite conservative.
We have sandy soil, so asparagus will be on the list for next spring.
And, there you go... you yourself are a perfect example of why people (you yourself) shouldn't use labels.
I'm so fucking not labelable that's it's, well, peaceful. Of course, the idelological idiots hate me because I won't sign up to their clubs...
Labels are for shallow thinkers who like to box in concepts, then discard further investigation - the non-curious love labels. . . oh, and Big Gov loves the labels too, as a form of social mind control, & the inevitable regulations = taxes.
I am all for local food and reviving older genetics. I have been stockpiling up many heirloom veggie seeds. Flavor is better in most, although growing can be more difficult. Baker creek has a ton of varieties.
This part of the story kind of made me frown:
What the hell is an emotionally enhanced food prototype? Why are the simplest things tried to be made fancy? Is he looking for capital? You can't in one part of an article talk about riding a horse into town and then proceed to drop this gobbletygook.
pods
What the hell is an emotionally enhanced food prototype? Why are the simplest things tried to be made fancy?
agreed. this was my argument above as well. sometimes people try to push too much.
I had an argument with someone recently who told me that I should change to a different brand of organic chicken because this other brand had more "chi".
huh?
let the product stand on its own. We don't need to make up reasons why local/organic may be better than Big Ag. All we have to do is show many people Food, Inc, remove Big Ag subsidies, and label GMO food as GMO so consumers can choose.
Doing just those three things will significantly change American consumption habits IMO... and will reach far more people than talking about "emotionally enhanced food" or "chi".
The other issue is that you don't make any money playing poker, you make the money selling the book on how to play poker and making appearances...
Well, you have to admit, that's quite an effort at product differentiation.
Absolutely. But it also turns off semi-intelligent people when it comes to buying their products or their way of thinking.
Good products do not need marketing. Bad ones do.
I got hooked on buying (at first, now growing) older genetics at a farmer's market when the farmer offered a taste of a Cherokee Purple tomato that he grew. I was floored. Then I bought ever single tomato he had.
Organic has been polluted as a label. Many low nutrition hybrids are in fact grown organically. Usually it is that hybrid vigor that makes them attractive to farmers. The fast growth means (usually) lower nutrients as many of the phytochemicals are produced over time. The N,P,K growing technique, whether from bat guano or mineral deposits have lowered the nutrient profiles of many modern foods. As has the desire to have the prettiest tomatoes and most uniform, seedless melons. The condition of the soil is a big factor in the nutrient load of the produce. Most soil is barely arable, being made so only by amending and providing an overabundance of N,P,K at the expense of the just as important micro-nutrients,
I have grown some of the ugliest produce that tastes great, and is loaded with nutrients.
Pardon the rambling, food gets me going.
pods
I believe the "emotional" thing is in reference to the fact that at polyface farms, the animals are raised in a way that closely mimics how they would behave without human intervention, so that the animal leads as stress free life as possible. He is a brilliant farmer, he guides nature, instead of trying to change it. Do some reading on his farm, it's well worth the time.
I actually have done a bit of research about the farm. Saw it featured on a PBS documentary. A very good place. Breaks the mold about natural farms not being able to produce.
Really a brilliant guy, and down to earth. Might just be how it was related in the OP. There are alot of these types of farms starting. Mainly co-ops. Which get raided for raw milk, etc. They are truly a threat to the factory farms, which cannot even be shown to the public, as illustrated on Food Inc.
pods
Be careful with your prize possesion, the Swat Team may come and raid your private seedbank one day!
Control the Oil and you control the country,
Control the food and you control the people,
Control the money and you control the world!
From the mouth of a very evil horse......Henry Kissinger
I've followed Salatin for a while now, and while I can't assume to know what's in his head, I'll give this a try...
I think what he means is that you have an emotional tie to the land and what you are doing. ALL lasting cultures have an emotional stake in their land and food. The corporate system removes the emotional element from our food (except the glutonous aspect).
I have had, however, a couple of nit-picks with Salatin, and that's that he has lot of customers come to him, which is a model that'll be a bit tough in the energy-wind-down world to come. He's also fairly big (grosses over 1 million per year last I checked).
Does he have the "answer?" Yes and no. There is no one-size-fits-all answer, which, as we can see from the big corporate system, just cannot change rapidly enough in the face of declining resouces (and natural fluctuations- weather, pests etc.). The "yes" part is that we have to recognize that we have to view ourselves as PART of nature, we have to (re)develop more of a symbiosis.
Bottom line: Salatin's operation is more stable than any corporate system. It isn't, however, The answer (nothing is).
Joel is the rock star of the local/family farm movement. Been to his place a few times for workshops.
BTW, if you are new to that subculture of 'Local, Natural, Whole Food' you will not find a bunch that is more wary of the Gov. FDA, etc.
For that group, Monsanto = Lord Voldemont
and if you happen to talk to the 'Raw Milk' people..... Well They are the 'Black Panthers/Weathermen' of the local food movement.
Saw a bumper sticker on a new Volvo SUV that will give you a window into those folks.
1. 'Eat Fresh, Eat Local'
2. 'genetically engineered food is Corporate Bioterrorism'
There is a movement afoot gentlemen.
its all about control. the corporate/goverment system cannot allow local food to grow and flourish because it undercuts their control. just look at cases where armed federal agents storm raw milk providers... or the health department gins up charges against the provider knowing that even trying to fight the system will financially bankrupt the provider. Monsanto terrorizes small farmers knowing full well that the small farms cannot afford to even fight back. there are reasons this, but you need a tin foil hat to get in that discussion. at the heart of it, mass produced foods are utterly devoid of the nutrients needed for real health.
Joel's "Everything I want to do is illegal" is a must read. War stories from the local food front. Joel highlights his battles with the US DA . Don't start a locally produced farm until you read this book
A.V. Krebs, who was a friend of Salatin's, was the premier watchdog:
http://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Reapers-Agribusiness-V-Krebs/dp/0962125938
I'll don mine to point out the obvious - if people were healthy, they wouldn't need Big Pharma, which is the end of the corporate food chain for "citizens."
Monsanto, of course, is part of the Corporate Predators that feed on humanity.
Drink the right batch of raw milk and you'll find all about "the movement".
If there's not enough food, why wouldn't Bernank just print up some money so we can buy some more? This isn't that hard people.
A libtard once told me that we shouldn't have all these stinkin' farms because we can buy all these things in the grocery store !!!!
God, DAMN Monsanto.
Hippy dreams.
Food will be the lnych pin that sets it off here in America. Many countries in the past have experienced hyperinflation, though they aleast had some form of self sufficancy in regards to food and rode out the storm. Americans may be lucky enough to have a weeks worth of potato chips and diet pepsi until the government implements the "Work for Food" program.
Also check this out:
http://www.cityfarmer.info/2011/08/30/urban-gardens-could-sustain-cities-in-cleveland/
The researchers found that the land could generate as much as $115 million in produce each year, enough to satisfy at least 22 percent of Cleveland’s demand for fresh produce. In some scenarios, perhaps 100 percent.
“We were definitely shocked it was really possible to be self-reliant,” said Parwinder S. Grewal, who is co-author of the study and director of Ohio State’s Center for Urban Environment and Economic Development, in Wooster.
Many older industrial cities have become magnets for urban farming. Many Columbus neighborhoods have added community gardens.
Grewal said he worked with Cleveland’s planning commission to compile all the land that would be available for growing.
The researchers created three scenarios based on using 80 percent of the vacant lots as well as varying percentages of rooftops and occupied residential lots. Then they looked at how much produce could be grown per acre, based on the crop, and at consumption levels in the city.
Cleveland has 20,000 vacant lots that add up to at least 3,400 acres, or about 5.3 square miles, an area slightly smaller than Worthington. According to OSU Extension, the 50 acres currently devoted to community gardens in Cleveland generate $1.2 million to $1.8?million of fresh produce each year.
Lastly, these guys do a pretty good job in following this trend as well as other factors affecting the global food chain (and actually posted this story yesterday):
https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Humble-Seed-The-Producer/109321865770206
Uh most of the vacant land in Cleveland is in the ghetto and there is a reason why it is vacant. obody will start an Urban Farm when the population of drug dealers outnumbers cops 100:1.
Now you could force all the unemployed welfare queens and their illiterate children to work the urban farms for the benefit of the suburbs.
Wait oops i think we tried that 150 years ago.
nice try racist troll.
"Detroit leads the way in urban farming"
http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Gardening/2010/0428/Detroit-leads-t...
Oakland CA is another locale that springs immediately to mind. . .
http://www.cityslickerfarms.org/
*WARNING* picture shows black woman!!!!
Kiss my black ass motherfucker.
Peak Oil = Global Warming = Fraud
AmericaRacket = imbecile
There is a strong tendency to sell the Peak Oil hoax primarily to the more socially conscious networks, in particular the alternative media and its more radical constituents. Note to self is a good example of how propaganda can ellicit irrational, brutish responses. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that Peak Oil Skeptics are imbeciles, primarily after the Global Warming fiasco. The psychological processes that led Note to self to invest so much of his spiritual energy on Peak Oil that he would develop a jingoistic complex toward it is something that our social engineers have studied extensively, as we can see.
eat me, moron. I'm sick of liars confusing people about what is true science.
Yes, Self. As my mother used to say.
'Some Minds are like Cement, All Mixed Up and Permanently Set'
Here is an interesting data set to contemplate for a few minutes:
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M
I love your government statistics. Talk to me about that U-3 unemployment rate.
If you want to cling to that train of logic, it is clear that you are too far gone....
Hey CiO, I think I found one of your 6 billion....
Makes for a complex tale, no? Has one wondering what the wild-catter industry could produce w/o .Gov intervention.. How about that Bakken field.....too expensive to fully tap in this cheap petrol$ world. But, how about a >30% unemployment, non-Dollar reserve currency world? Might be more cost effective to access. Will without a doubt be a very painful transition, or, reversion to the mean.
Reserve size means shit.
It's flow rate baby. (and EROEI). Bakken will never produce more than a couple hundred thousand barrels per day. PERIOD.
Bakken (and the others) is like having a million dollars in the bank but being only able to with draw $100 per month. Don't plan on any expensive vacations.
Come back and Show me a field that has a flow rate of (say) 4 million barrels per day.
Until then, forget about it.
Full disclosure, I'm an oil dynamics novice, but willing to learn and review ALL facts. However, my line of work involves the study of complex systems, I see oversimplification of complex issues on a daily basis. I believe oil supply and dollar reserves have a nasty surprise for us. But I also believe that demand destruction and domestic output are underplayed by the peak oil enthusiasts. People can and will adapt to a no growth future. If I have to go to horse and carriage, fine. Just don't be having some government Fuck regulating supply and forcing further central planning down people's throats.
twins!
This is the new "other liquids" measurement standard. As always, it does not say how much oil was used to produce the "other liquids", now being counted. No mention of EROEI. Unfortunately, most folks are too lazy to try to get a grip on what that all means. Tar sands are the perfect example. The fact that we will use SO MUCH energy to produce useable oil there should convince anyone willing to do the mental work that we are literally at the point of diminishing returns and escalating costs. Period.
I became Peak Oil aware around 2001ish by articles on FTW site back then.
early on read most of everything on the original www.dieoff.com
Have read it all, been a TheOilDrum member for about 6 years
This is good reading for anyone who might be at risk of Developing Note to self's Cultic Personality Disorder. The Peak Oil Cult is just that. The hsteria displayed by Note to self when his cult faith was criticized should make people think twice before listening to this crowd.
TPTB hold a monopoly on the science of cult-making (not to say that they make the only cults, but they have turned it into a science). Peak Oil is simply one of those cults. Scientology, the Process, etc. All have direct ties to some sector of the Ruling Class, whether it was Hubbert's ties to the Oil Industry. (The Peak Oil Cultists cite an obvious industry hack like 90% of the time) or Hubbard's ties to the CIA. (All of this is well-documented.) Note to self has gone past the stage where cult indoctrination produces full-blown mental illness. Buyer beware.
http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr52.html
Hello, hello, "AmericaRacket?" phone call, Mr. Charles Darwin on the other line for you...
The fatal flaw in you argument is that because people make money from something that that makes it invalid: go ahead, point out something that someone's promoting and who's not making money off of it (very rare!).
You would have us believe that gravity is a conspiracy because the men in black hats toss us over the cliff- gravity KILLS, therefore it's wrong/bad!
Yup, parabolic curves don't exist. The world is FULL of oil, and it's ever-increasing!
Run along, go off and play with the unicorns...
A peak oil and climate science denier complaining about propaganda and irrational, brutish responses. Now THAT is fucking rich.
Denier. That's a beautiful word. I don't deny anything. I don't deny that the principles at the University at East Anglia (Mann, Sanger, et al) were caught communicating with each other about falsifying their scientific data, drylabbing, and intimidating scientists who disagreed with their conclusions. I don't deny that a large number of scientists had requested to remove their names from the consensus shown by the IPCC in their climate reports, or that the 'consensus' of 3,000 some-odd scientists contained large numbers of bureaucrats. I don't deny that CO2 is not a pollutant. (Does Lower Class insist that CO2 is a pollutant?) I don't deny that any one who uses the term "Carbon Pollution" has no credibility. I don't deny that a single large volcanic eruption prodces more CO2 than 10 years of industrial output. I don't deny that C02 and climate have never been convincingly linked. I don't deny that there are other effects of increased CO2 in the atmoshere that negate any climate effects, such as increased plant growth, resulting in more OXYGEN in the air, resulting in still further CO2 (Good heavens!)
I don't deny any of it. The term denial has no place in science. It is in the realm of fundamentalists. Lower Class is a fundamentalists who insists that the only options are the AFFIRMATION of the sacred text or its DENIAL. I say that there are options such as INSPECTION, and from this inspection, ACCEPTANCE, or REJECTION. And I emphatically reject the bogus, retarded, pathetic, preposterous, infantile, disgusting, manipulative, evil farce of Anthropogenic Climate Change that has been inflicted upon us by the Carbon Tax Class and its pitiful army of dupes.
I regret calling you a liar previously. I was incorrect. Liars are the other of the two kinds of Peak Oil/Climate Change rejector. They typically have a profit motive. You are the "just plain dopey" kind.
Well, there you have it! A couple of people falsifying data results in the complete obliteration of all that is factual!
I knew that gravity was nothing but a hoax!
Gravity?!!! I prefer to call it Intelligent Falling.
It's too late in the thread to post this Seer. But I'm 95% sure you see the fallacy in your reasoning. It's in the 5% chance that you are not lying that I say this.
The difference between Antro Climate Change (ACC) and gravity is that the ONLY proofs of ACC have been shown to be fraudulent. There is thus no evidence AT ALL of ACC. The entire body of science surrounding ACC has been infested with fraud from its inception.
This is a far cry from anything that can be said of the Theory of Gravity, which has, shall we say, a long histroy of scientific validation.
No ACC scientist has been able to predict climate change better than could be done by blind chance. The only such predictons come from a skeptic of the cult that consistently made bets with the British Weather Service and Won. This is different from gravity, to put it mildly.
"There is thus no evidence AT ALL of ACC. The entire body of science surrounding ACC has been infested with fraud from its inception"
Damn, dude. And you're calling me religious?
No. I'm calling you cultic and fanatical. Religious people have some degree of rationality in their thinking. You are allowed to bring evidence into a religious argument. You have shown no evidence at all that ACC exists. No one has. Mann's hockey stick was it, and it was proven fraudulent. Mann tried to erase the Medieval Warm period down the memory hole. It's back.
Cultists, fideists, and fanatics do not care for things such as the complete absence of evidence. Religious people do. That is why I would not call you religious. You provide no evidence at all for ACC, because there is none. There is HUGE evidence of lying, from Mann's charts, to the Climategate emails, to Al Gore's fraudulent reversal of causation in his multi-millennia CO2/Climate Chart. (He neglected to mention that it was Climate driving CO2 in his chart, not the other way around.) Of course, since you show much faith in documented liars, I do feel that there is a good chance you're lying.
Here's the story, friend. The position you are staking out is not some inconsequential theoretical exercise. It is a position that actively enables those whose actions are consistently and demonstrably fucking up the planet upon which I and my family, friends, and fellow human beings (including your sorry ass) live. I'm not trying to argue with you. I hold no illusion that anything I might say to you will cause you to see the error of your ways. Every single talking point you've regurgitated here has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked many times over by multiple credible individuals and institutions (but you already know that, don't you?). No, what I'm doing is warning you. I don't really give a fuck what your motivation is. This shit is real and it is personal. And it is getting more real and more personal for more people with each passing season. And you and yours will be held to account. Think on that and be dismayed. That is all.
Yawn. See my other post below. I don't deny that you are denial. Now head on back to WUWT and get some more talking points. Right after you fill up the ol' Hummer on some abiotic oil from your yard rig. You do have a yard rig, don't you?
You know why the global economy collapse? Because, China and India refuse to sign on the Kyoto Protocol treaty. If not for China and India, the Mega Banks, Hedge funds and market speculators would still be blowing another bubble into Cap-and-Trade scheme. The NWO were actually counting on an agreement so they can cull the population and earn megabucks at the same time.
It's not so much that peak oil is not real - it's just that oil scarcity is created by capping large discoveries. (yes, oil is finite - please keep reading) To complete the farce, alternative near-zero cost energies have been suppressed since Tesla discovered how to harness proton flow from the sun in the 1900s to create unlimited free energy. JP Morgan put a stop to that.
Peak oil was created as a straw horse to blame high energy costs on. A distraction timed to coincide with the great banker ripoff. If the Chinese do not get their oil and coal, they will be the ones to lift the embargo on alternative energies. Coming to a small town near you after the collapse.
Like most of the doom porn around - this one happens to be manufactured as well. The shortage will be real. We are using oil faster than it's being created. Our entire infrastructure depends on oil. It's just that none of this is necessary when we currenty have the technology at hand.
When I want to read a good yarn I sometimes glance at the Enquirer too. Sorry, couldn't resist.
And housing never goes down...
Are you a product of America's latest racket? For-profit edumacation.
Peak Oil = Global Warming = Carbon Tax = Fraud = NWO = One World Government Police state!
Truth is the Sunspot Activity has more to do with global warming than burning fossil fuel!
>Truth is the Sunspot Activity has more to do with global warming than burning fossil fuel!
Yes, according to Nir Shaviv: "it turns out that (1) We don't even know the sign of the anthropogenic climate driving (because of the unknown indirect aerosol effects), and (2) There is an alternative mechanism which can explain a large part of the warming." http://www.sciencebits.com/CO2orSolar
ZZZZzz.
We re-examine past suggestions of a close link between terrestrial climate change and the Sun's transit of spiral arms in its path through the Milky Way galaxy. These links produced concrete fits, deriving the unknown spiral pattern speed from terrestrial climate correlations. We test these fits against new data on spiral structure based on CO data that do not make simplifying assumptions about symmetry and circular rotation. If we compare the times of these transits with changes in the climate of Earth, the claimed correlations not only disappear, but we also find that they cannot be resurrected for any reasonable pattern speed...
Although previous work found a correlation between the 140 Myr climate cycle on the Earth and the intersection with spiral arms (Shaviv 2003, Shaviv & Veizer 2003; Svensmark 2006), with new data on the structure of the Galaxy, this correlation disappears. We have used a new model of the large-scale gas distribution in the Galaxy, using a velocity deconvolution of CO and Hi line data based on self-consistently computed, non-circular gas flows in the inner Galaxy (Bissantz et al. 2003; Pohl et al. 2008; Englmaier et al. 2009). In contrast to many published studies, this model does not force azimuthal symmetry into the spiral-arm structure. The asymmetry of the arms near the solar circle erases any correlation to the 140 Myr cycle and any periodic trend less than the orbital period of our solar system relative to the spiral pattern as a whole. This would be greater than 500 Myr for the previously fit pattern speed. Even if we allow the pattern speed to vary, it will not be less than the orbital period of the Sun, which is still longer than the 140 Myr cycle in question. The asymmetry of the new galactic picture could create a correlation between the spiral-arm crossings and any non-periodic event by varying the pattern speed. We conclude that, based on these new data, there is no evidence to suggest any correlation between the transit of our solar system through the spiral arms of our Galaxy and the terrestrial climate.
http://iopscience.iop.org/1538-4357/705/2/L101
Due diligence on sources:
Shaviv is a climate change skeptic and was a speaker at the International Conference on Climate Change (2009) hosted by the conservative think tank, the Heartland Institute. While he does believe the earth is warming, he contends that the sun's rays, rather than human produced CO2, are the cause. [1] But a 2009 analysis of data "on the sun's output in the last 25 years of the 20th century has firmly put the notion to rest.The data shows that even though the sun's activity has been decreasing since 1985, global temperatures have continued to rise at an accelerating rate." [2]
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Nir_Shaviv
Why you shouldn't believe the hype.
Really? Look, man. I'm not going to get into some link-swapping tit-for-tat with you. You'll maybe cite a couple WattsUpWithThat articles regarding climate change and a shocking new paper on how many bagigajouletonnes of oil "equivalent" are just waiting to be extracted from underneath the Grand Canyon or some shit, Then I'll waste an inordinate amount of time citing dozens of papers and studies (produced by actual scientists and oil patch professionals as oppossed to former weathermen and "entrepeneurs") refuting everything you put forward, which you will then promptly ignore. Let's just skip all that and not get bogged down in the minutiae, eh? What I'm going to ask you to do is Search Your Fellings, Luke. Think about all the coal, oil, gas, agriculture, automotive, transportation, construction, pharmaceutical, etc. etc. corporations that have a vested, or should I say existential interest in the notion that hydrocarbons are plentiful and pose no credible threat to the environment. Now think about the industries, groups, and individuals who actively challenge those notions. Think about who are the biggest cheerleaders for carbon tax and trading schemes and their ultimate relationships to the aforementioned groups (hint: it's the same people who will create and oversee the exchanges, create the "products" to be traded, and who don't really give a rat's ass about the underlying "debate" so long as they make a profit/collect the taxes). Think about what you know of human nature, of our historical propensity for shitting in our own nests, and for rationalizing, justifying, ignoring, and/or dumping the shit into someone else's nest. Ask yourself if the localized self-sufficiency required by a reduction in energy consumption would seem more conducive to central planning, globalisation, and one world government or to, well, localized self-sufficiency. Let go of your personal feelings about Al Gore, Barbara Striesand, and annoying hippies in Volvo station wagons with peace frogs on the back. Search Your Fucking Feelings, Luke. And ask yourself; CUI BONO? Which one of these things makes the most sense? Who has the most skin in the game? Who is more likely to lie and mount a massive misinformation campaign for their own personal benefit? Michael Mann? Or ExxonMobil? The Oil Drum? Or Senator Inhofe? Think on this.
The biggest pofiters will always shift to anything that will make them money. Last I checked this was capitalism...
The questions to ask of any "solution" are:
1) Is it sustainable?
2) Is it scalable?
IMO the farther something is from nature the less likely it can meet these criteria.
In the final analysis BIG = FAIL.
Quite true. That's why I can't really get on board with any of the currently proposed carbon taxing and/or trading schemes. The theory behind them may sound reasonable enough (unless, like our friend AmericaRacket, one does not even acknowledge that there is a problem), but they will be BIG, immenently corruptible, and ultimately they will devolve into yet another scheme for making money by shovelling shit into somebody else's nest. It's a bitch when you run out of nests, too...
This is my farm in Upstate NY. Check it out:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Grass-Roots-Natural-Beef/134111163306319
My mom grew up on a farm 50 miles N of NYC where her family had been since the 1600s. When we buried her in the family plot nearby, we swung by the farm--the farm house was gone and a stone McMansion had been built: an expression of the concentration of wealth and capital away from essential productivity.
Yes...and an expression of outsourcing of productivity and know-how to foreign entities that make the building materials for that McMansion. It will also soon stand as a lasting image of the era of limitless cheap energy expectations and of the rise and fall of the era of cheap money
oops double post.
Joel Salatin and Allan Nation are visionaries, agricultural gods. They also make a lot of money per hectare...20 times the norm.
Here in France they practice intensive grazing systems and farm stacking. It generates great revenues and allows great local markets to develop. There are a lot of positives, the US food system is partly on a precipice.
All that matters is sentiment...and sentiment towards factory produced meat and veg is changing. You should also check out the films Fresh and also movements like Growing Power in Milwaukee.
Greetings from sunny France :)
Andre Voisin, A French biochemist and farmer, born in 1903, wrote the bible on roational grazing in 1959 called Grass Productivity, a must read for any pasture farmer.
Voisin "officially" discovered the S shaped growth curve of grass after his wife had complained that Voisin's beef production had fallen. Thus was born the "law of the second bite", which simply states that you can't let your pastured animal back on the paddock until the grass growth rate starts rounding the top of the S curve. This maximizes pastured animal production...
Thats correct. Andre Voisin was from near where I live in Brittany. CEDAPA and Andre Pochon continue his work here. This kind of work is openly encouraged.
I'll be in Besancon next summer and will check out the Brittany area. Great excuse to travel 400 miles!
You just reminded me that I'm behind on my reading! :-) Been wanting to read that book for a long time now...
I guess this just goes to show that what might appear to be new ideas are really old ideas reborn.
I let my subscription to Stockman Grassfarmer lapse. I used to enjoy reading Allan Nation's stuff, up until he seemed to be so enthralled with Warren Buffett: not sure what he's saying about him these days. And then there started to become too much talk about growing operations, getting bigger- this is the growth trap!
I really enjoyed Julius Ruechel's book Grassfed Beef. In it he mentioned a true pioneer - Temple Grandin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin); here's an amazing person!
Anyway, knowing what's up with nature is really great. It truly is amazing how much easier is it to work with rather than against nature.
here's another oldie but goodie Seer, Tree crops. It goes over two story agriculture. A must read
http://www.amazon.com/Tree-Crops-Permanent-Agriculture-Conservation/dp/0933280440
Joel Salatin is talking his book and his book is good food. He has created a farm that is cutting edge in its' efficiency and food quality.
Acres magazine is another excellent source of information on how, but just as important, why.
As for Raw Milk- the government are nazi's when it comes to raw milk products.
Liability law is becoming the tool of choice for the USDA food nazis. They can prosecute you whether you have any knowledge of the law- it is YOUR responsibility to keep up on ALL aspects of the law and the changes made- whether they are published or not.
The government are nazi's in all areas of local food production. Salatin blazed the trail and beat the USDA back in many areas, allowing us pasture farmer newbies to work unmolested. His book, everything I want to do is illegal, describes in great detail his dealings with the idiots at the USDA...
short version, the government are NAZI's
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=922&bih=363&q=project+p...
Operation Paperclip
along with Operation Mockingbird, MKULTRA and Yamashita's Gold it presents a very disturbing portrait of what our governemnt is really all about.
When it comes to food people won't be denied. I remember hearing about "cow share" and I marveled at peoples' ingenuity.
I recall a saying from WAY back, that "everything's home-grown, it just depends on who's home." There is good and bad everywhere. Small-scale can result in illness just as can happen with large-scale, difference being that large-scale can go VERY bad. BIG=FAIL
'Agenda 21'...theyre already way ahead of you making private food production illegal.
raw milk is so beneficial and healthy that it will never be permitted to flourish and grow... ever wonder why the gov/corps can't allow that? don't they want us the serfs to be healthy? hmm....
Zieg heil there, sheepy! In the utopian future we willwork where we are assigned for the pay we are deemed worthy of and we will like it! Most of us will be assigned to work at the local nuclear power plant which has the hidden benefit of making our teeth whiter than they've ever been and our local tomatoes grow to 10lbs each.
Yep the 'Work for Food' camps will be awesome!
An RFID chip in every chicken! And of course, 100,000 chickens in a confinement operation will be duly represented by one RFID chip. But of course...
There are possibilities and then then there are probabilities. The probability, in a world of declining energy, of increased controls is low. Anyone should be able to see that the world aliances, of which any global strategy relies upon, are breaking apart.
Running around screaming that the sky is falling, even though it would be a scary prospect, doesn't mean that the sky IS falling, or that it WILL. I am anti-BIG, so the idea of global control is NOT part of my book; but, one must look at the facts and use one's energy wisely, and I'm just not seeing that applying energy to "combat" the NWO is prudent when it really is a very low probability.
Indeed sir....but keep in mind....SheepDoo is a DOOMBOT. It's really more a of a Nazi fetish thing....but regardless...no point in wasting your brain power on ihim.
Localized food and energy is great and is far more efficient than the current system of long supply chains. The mistake is to think that this will require massive deindustrialization, as this huckster is implying. From Hydroelectric even to clean coal, there are several abundant sources of energy. There is no energy crisis in the US or the world.
I'm begining to think that unicorns ARE real, and that your reasoning is impaired due to being gored in the head by one!
WTF does "abundant" mean? Enough for everyone one for anything we would want to do for, well, for EVER?
Two-dimensional thinking. Darwin's world doesn't like that...
BTW - Hydro-electric comes from dams, which have limited livespans. Snap out of it, reality doesn't wait for no one; or, continue with the unicorns.
No, the mistake is to remain so desperately emotionally invested in the unsustainable (yet remarkably comfy!) BAU world you live in that you cannot see the reality of our collective predicaments.
Side note: Clean coal? Bwahahahahaha!
From CNN Money
Aug 31 10:22am: Stocks advance on strong economic data
U.S. stocks were solidly higher Wednesday, on the last day of what has been a volatile month for investors, as they digested several economic reports on the labor market and manufacturing.
I quote, Strong economic data, say it again, strong economic data,
I keep reiterating it but I just can not belive it, I must be cynical.
Or I am just confused? On that same CNN page I find this,
Consumer confidence plunges to lowest level since Great Recession
I have seen this happen on MSM websites WITHIN the same day:
AM: Stocks up on optmism
PM: Stocks down on pessimism
Ive even seen 'Stocks rise due to seller exhaustion'...the stock sellers simply got too tired and fell out, thus making stocks rise again.
Results may not total 100% due to rounding
Capital investment has to move away from ponzi finance. That in itself will be a revolution. As today, it is the avowed MANTRA of the last twenty years. All politicians swear by it. GS defines where USA puts its money for short term mega gain, totally divorced from business cycles but not from BS bubble cycles. They did it for Greece, they did it with Abacus for subprimes, they show the way to all, as envied icons of the american craze for easy money of land of ponzi, with no tomorrows except those of cumulative sorrows, for most of the host who are toast; champagne and caviar in stark contrast for the Happy few.
What's new? Its back to Medicis type neo-feudalism with a vengeance and don't look at the crooks for 'magnanimity', for egalitarian concerns for the sort of the common man; its a word that is marked 'libtard BS' in their gospel.
Well.
Our foray into a self-sustaining food-consuming 'unit' has resulted in an overabundance of Zucchini that we have to give away, but a tragic paucity of watermelon, tomatoes, peppers, and lettuce due to raccoons, deer, oppossums, squirrels, and unidentified night creatures that have devastated our second crop.
Our next year's garden will have to be approached with an eye to defense systems to protect our veggies that include a 303 Winchester w/ sound suppressor. Got to invest in a Freezer too.
We've tried Coyote piss, fabric fences, and a variety of traps. But it's an ongoing battle much like I imagine Wellington waged with Napoleon.
And trying to grow doughnuts, Ho-hos, Li'l Debs, and chocolate chip cookies is a heartbreaker.
It takes a while growing before it pays off all the chicken wire mesh you need to buy just to fend off critters. Then theres the hoardes of spider mites and slugs and 1,000 other things its almost impossible to fend off.
Ants are the solution to little pests.
any and all ants except carpenter ants and fire ants, both of which are easily recognised. Ants actually pollinate many plants and without them we are sol.
Anony, get yourself a solar powered electric fence. I have a 10 mile range unit set up around my garden. Have not had an intrusion yet. I tried all the usuals, soap, hair, piss, hot stuff, rotten eggs. Hungry animals don't care. And once they know it is there (the food) not much will stop them. Fence stopped them in their tracks. One line about 6 inches up for rabbits etc, one line at like 3 feet for deer. You can bait the fence with foil smeared with aluminum if you want to, as that gets them interested into touching it without sitting there thinking how to jump it.
I tested the fence as well. It produces around a 4-5kV output and if you touch it with your hand it is somewhat irritating. If you touch it while barefoot it is a different animal all together. Just use your right hand.
pods
I don't understand how a 3 foot fence will stop a deer. I've seen them jump a 6 foot fence without a problem. They aren't the brightest bulbs, but they are quite atheletic.
Have a dog?
For the most part ours keeps things away, even though it is in at night.
As someone below suggested, a mobile solar-powered fencer is good. We've got one (purchased used from Craigslist) to power electronetting for the protection of our fowl: also have a dual mode (120v/12v) fencer that we'll be putting to use running off a deep cycle battery. Our garden is left alone, with only minimal losses to deer (hit on the strawberries every once in a while): had some t-posts out to construct something, but ended up not bothering with.
Might want to look to plant some "bait," some other offerings that will direct attention away from the garden: or, one could encourage the neighbors to plant more appealing gardens :-)
If all else fails you can go with double fencing- a fence inside of a fence, separated by only a few (5?) feet or so. Supposedly (I don't have any practical experience/working knowledge) deer have perception problems with this arrangement.
Little devices on Amazon that are basically sprinkler scarecrows. It's motion activated sprinker head that sprays for 10 seconds or so when it detects a critter. Works on about 80% of them but you have to have water pressure and do some line-of-sight aiming to make it effective. Keeps out the dogs, chickens, deer, etc. with no problem. Works on kids and neighbors too. I found trapping and eliminating racoons, possums, and squirrels to be the only good solution. Raccoons and squirrels are too smart for their own good and possums are just destructive. Buy the humane traps and when caught, drown and bury...
If you think horses are better for the ecology than cars, you're a retard. As the author notes, horses must be fed every day, and they pollute and consume 24/7. Cars, on the other hand, only consume energy when you drive them.
I totally agree about the disconnect from food though.
My neighbors horses supply most of the nutrients for my garden, how do they pollute exactly?
Funny that you should mention it... that was one of the marketing angles for selling the first autos- hey were less polluting!
Not sure that horse crap has killed anyone, no one's locked themselves in a band and asphyxiated themselves with it?
Much of the pollution from autos occurs when they're manufactured (did people know that it takes about 35,000 gallons of fresh water to manufacture a complete car?). Can't say the same for horses.
Disclaimer: I don't much like horses (I have firsthand knowledge, been around some). Other than plowing and hauling they'll never attain the prominence that many would believe. In the end, however, there WILL be more horses than autos...
"abuse the ecology." yawn.
Set traps for the raccoons deer possums and squirrels and you have a full course meal...
They tend to become quite smart enough to avoid traps. However, I've found two things that work. For one, my garden is very close to foot traffic from the house, and short range from a window that has no screen, so a small .22 or shotgun acts as a deterrent (I rarely actually shoot them, just kick some dirt into their face usually does it).
Second, around my 50ft on a side veggie garden is an electrified fence with one extra high and one extra low wire, charged by a charger for a 50 *mile* fence. One contact with that and deer lose all interest for months -- I don't even have to leave it turned on all season.
I also find that a lot of unused space in the garden makes deer more comfortable with jumping the fence. If there's a lot of tall stuff, and stakes, they don't like the feeling of being trapped.
Many of my neigbors shoot varmints as a hobby...this keeps the numbers way down.
BTW, I really liked the comment that the UN couldn't find their way out of a closet with the door open. All too true, and their agendas, being made up mostly of tinpot dictators, are obvious as hell. OF course they want us disarmed. Of course they don't want self sufficient people -- no way to be as corrupt if the money flows aren't convienently centralized for skimming and so forth. Which is why the few big countries keep them in check.
If you're going to worry about "black helicopters" it'd be smarter to worry about ones that say "US" on them.
Meanwhile, the DUH is up +100 as momo's chase the carrot on a stick dangled by Bubbles Bernank which he has no intention of ever delivering on.
SDone... EE has been attacking gold since about 3am... and getting nowhere. Currently $1832.40
Have you read about the new Pan Asia Gold Exchange? It's going to be a game changer for COMEX and LBMA.
Well if Bubbles wants his QE3 carrot on a stick hysteria rally to continue on then he'll just have to accept gold will not be easily beaten down.
Or, just keep relying on the Too Big To Fail systems. Just wear your raincoat...meanwhile, in another advanced economy:
2 workers showered with highly radioactive water
Tokyo Electric Power Company says 2 male workers at its troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant were showered with highly radioactive water by mistake.
The accident occurred on Wednesday morning.
The two subcontracting workers were suddenly splashed with water leaking from a container whose valve was not shut. The container was part of the contaminated water processing system.
TEPCO says one of the 2 workers was found to be exposed to 0.16 millisievelts of radiation, which is higher than the safety limit, and was decontaminated.
The other, who was wearing a raincoat, was exposed to 0.14 millisievelts of radiation, a slightly smaller dose than the other man.
The utility says that the 2 workers did not complain of symptoms such as burns and they had no internal radiation exposure.
TEPCO is investigating how the accident occurred.
Last Sunday, 2 TEPCO workers at the plant were exposed to radiation by mistake while they were replacing parts of the contaminated water processing system, which is key to bringing the crippled reactors under control.
Wednesday, August 31, 2011 22:23 +0900 (JST)
One cleanup worker recently died of acute leukemia. Tepco denied that it could be related to his work.
Yeah - Tepco says it was apparently a chronic, pre-existing case of acute Leukemia. Got it.
He obviously got the cancer from the sushi.
!0 Sieverts is LD50 for most humans. I get about 1 mSv when I run my fusor. I don't do that all day every day, but have been doing what I do for a lotta years, and I'm fine. Reality check. Burns happen at levels that usually would indicate quick death if whole body was exposed.
However, there is so much denial of accepted scientific fact (not the astroturf paid-for-by-vested-interest type -- all that's being bought hook line and sinker here, fools) I'm going to just shut up, because no one has any interest in truth. They just want to hear things that confirm their emotional investment decisions, true or not.
Try voting on Newtons laws and see if consensus different from actual obvserved fact gets you anyplace. Idiots.
We've had planty of good discussions of radiation dosage around here. That isn't the point in this case. I am the one who bothers to read the Japanese press with some regularity and bring snippits back to ZH.
Too Big To Fail systems....fail. This blog is in many ways about tail risk and how to handle it. Fukushima is an example that demonstrates a lot of the financial and political points made with regularity here. I was simply using current information to let folks know that real people are still there, still trying to deal with it, and it is a long term serious 'fail'.
Which for some, may have something to do with growing your own tomatoes. Others not so much.
"Too Big To Fail systems....fail"
ALL systems fail, and BIG systems fail in BIG ways!
I have to wonder how DCFuser's progeny turns out. But, hey, that's what evolution is all about!
Noticed the DOW up as well, amazing...you have to wonder if they can keep it up...I for one have settled into the reality that they will slowly take everything from you until you have nothing left, including your rights....THEN comes the NWO! yay!
you have to wonder if they can keep it up
With trillions of worthless fiatscos sloshing around the system, they could take it anywhere they want. Especially in a low volume market with few shares being offered. That would mean that for one brief shining moment, at least on paper, every stock holder in the US would be a billionaire.
Of course when it would come time to sell those inflated shares, prices would plumet. Unless more trillions were gifted to the bulge bracket
Well the DUH was just up almost +200, now only up +40 or so...just another day in Bizarro USSA.
Bring on Bennie 'The Fluffer' Bernanke...we'll have an upward market erection, er, correction in no time!
Oh, here's another little detail just now being discovered:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/31_03.html
TEPCO finds possibly active faults near Fukushima
Tokyo Electric Power Company suspects there are 5 active faults near the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant that could affect the crippled plant if they cause a tremor.
TEPCO made the discovery after the Japanese government requested utilities and nuclear agencies to reexamine faults around nuclear plants.
The directive followed a strong earthquake on April 11th from a fault thought to be inactive, 50 kilometers from the Fukushima plant.
TEPCO said on Tuesday that geological deformations were observed for the first time at 5 faults, suggesting they are active.
The utility will continue drilling to investigate the conditions, though the firm believes any tremors would be within the quake-resistance standard.
Besides TEPCO, two nuclear agencies reported 9 faults near their nuclear facilities in Ibaraki Prefecture that could be active.
Wednesday, August 31, 2011 06:16 +0900 (JST)
Its funny how they built nuke reactors right on top of fault lines, same is true in the US too! The largest concentration of US nuke reactors is near San Andreas and New Madrid. BRILLIANT!
and on rivers that are flooding
What is this an eco-terrorism article?
Bad guess. NO. Go back to sleeping...
While we're on the subject of growing our own food either individually or collectively let's not forget that there is one non-food item that anyone can easily grow anywhere, container or garden, that has proven to be one of the best barter items in economies that have turned to shit in the past, and that's tobacco. Check out http://www.cultivatorshandbook.com/cultivators/Barter_Tobacco.html
Fair disclosure - this is one of my websites, and yes I have grown a lot of Tobacco. Started the Santa Fe Natural Tobacco Company in the early 1980s, and created the "American Spirit" brand. Free detailed info on this site for growing your own, plus a discount on my book if you want.
LOL. Fuck me, the guy who started AS is a doom and gloomer?
I smoke your brand. Couldn't stand to see the gun powder flair up on my camels anymore.
Thanks As - good to hear from you. Not quite a doom and gloomer - but not a pollyanna either. Kind of a watchful waiter.
Saved and printed your free pocket guide to growing tobacco. I live in the Pacific NW, may just give it a try. Thanks.
Hi Shell Game - the NW Native Americans were among the most prolific growers & users of tobacco both as a smoke path to the spirit world and as just plain fun. Lots of info on NW Indian tobacco on www.archive.org - a great source of old ethnographic materials. Hope my guide is helpful - write if you have any questions please.
Hey AS, Thanks, I will! Bookmarked you and archive.org and may get that book of yours too.
When I smoked, I smoked those. I was one of the first people to get my hands on Peruvian purple potatoes (passing ranch to ranch on the sly, paper bag pickup), and was buying and growing from the old 1980s Native Seeds gang. Back in the high desert days near the Nevada Nuclear Test site.
Nice to have you here.
Hi Jim - we may have crossed paths - I knew the folks at Native Seed search pretty well back then. Thanks for the welcome - nice to hear from you too.
I was given two tobacco plants in pots and the green caterpillars have eaten most of the leaves.
Are there any safe ways to deal with them?
Hi Green Leader - those caterpillars are most likely the Tobacco Hawk moth. They live on the underside of the leaf. You have to try to get them when they are very tiny - about the size of a little green tomato seed, and just pick them off and squash them. Get rid of them and your plants should come right back - but you have to keep checking for new ones.
DBT(bacillus thuringiensis) works well on virtually all caterpillar or other vegatation eating insects. It's considered 'organic' in OMRI certified versions. As with all pesticides, use with caution, helpful insects can be harmed as well. Diatomaceous earth is another. For two plants AS' manual method is certainly better. @AS...have been on the site. Excellent info. Have some seeds I 'store' in a wine fridge modified for the purpose. Any input on the lifespan at 50deg? And growing in a 9a climate?
Get real ! Are we going to feed our pigs organic corn ? Monedas 2011 Brown eggs.....color coded for easier peeling when boiled ! Warning: Monedas was raised lickin' the cream off the paper stopper and drinkin' raw milk ! He is now totally unfit to be a "Good Socialist Peon" !
Yeah. Great post, ZH
Gypsies are free. Saw a documentary about gypsies - they were living in trees, had built wood platforms and placed furniture,etc. on it - it was snowing lightly and here were these gypsies sitting on couches on a wooden platform up in a tree. How cool is that?
Cool? yeah, like ambient temperature, once those dumb fucks die from exposure.
Move to Java.
Surf the dawn waves, and then snorkel/fish for lunch.
If you can find a local honey: paradise.
There are some compelling aquaculture setups out there.
Especially the ones combining raising produce and tilapia fish. The fish waste feeds the produce, produce cleans the fish water. Hardy fish, minimal energy input needed for circulating water. Scalable systems from patio size to much larger systems. You can grow duckweed to feed the fish. Others add in compost/worm beds as well. Real interesting stuff that even seems to make economic sense.
I stopped reading after "Peak Oil." What incredible bs. I did see the mention of world population rising "exponentially." What you must understand is that it is not rising exponentially. World population will top off and decline, just like all bubbles eventually do. Even gold. It's not exponential, it's logistic.
Gold price depends on how much debt is printed, could be $10,000, $20,000... there is no bubble possible for gold.
It will top off and plateau, not decline. Sigma curve in a closed system. But it is logistic ;*)