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Supreme Court Judge Bars Protesters From Zucotti Park, Denies Restraining Order
Not quite the outcome expected by the shower-impaired crowd:
- OCCUPY WALL STREET' PROTESTERS BARRED FROM PARK, JUDGE RULES
- OCCUPY WALL STREET' PROTESTERS RESTRAINING ORDER DENIED
- NEW YORK JUDGE RULES AFTER POLICE FORCIBLY REMOVED PROTESTERS
So... now what?
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You disrespect the house you are in when you are unable to argue with a fellow ZH'er on the merits and resort to derogatory name calling.
If you want him/her to respect your position at least have the decency to respect him/her.
Comeon Lizzy this is FUCKING FIGHT CLUB!!!
Don't come here looking for respect or decency.
Don't come here looking for respect or decency
Thought you were talking about America???
This is Fight Club. But i respect what Tyler provides for us daily. And i try to respect, other fight club participants.
If i want more civil discourse everywhere, if i want to understand, than i have to give good civil discourse. With humor, sarcasm and intelligence worthy of Zerohedge.
If i want to see a lack of decency and respect i will watch c-span. Personally i think Zerohedge is better than what passes as status quo discourse these days.
Lizzy in case nobody ever told you...you give GREAT Civil Discourse. Don't sell yourself short thinking it's just "good."
Spoken like a true fight clubber.
@ nmewn, tekhneek, Lizzy above
Correct re civil argument here at ZH. Fight Club? Sure. But no personal insults please.
Oh, yes Zuchotti Park IS private. And going into $125,000 of student debt is pretty silly unless you major in engineering or something else where you develop a useful skill set and can get a good job.
What the fvck are you talking about? Let me get this straight. You're saying, that before you take out a loan for a bullshit major, you should major in something that will be in high demand after you graduate?
Shut the front door.
Unfortunately this whole OWS event is just the last 50 years occuring again on internet time. They will all be inspired to be lawyers, so next time they can beat that evil judge. Then they realize there is money in being a lawyer, which does not require any particular undergraduate degree. Then they will become community organizers, tax lawyers, corporate lawyers, lobbyists, politicians, and in the end ... they will become what they hate ... the judge in this case. Or an MBA that can get a chinaman to make their very own Ipads, tents and clothing for $1.20/hr.
Human nature is simple and unfortunately never changing. If there is no demand for your "chosen" profession and/or compensation level .... create it. with passive agressiveness or aggressive agressiveness. Which works until they can't find John Galt to tax or sue.
Idealism is unaffordable?
Heck no. The problem for the young people is that they were the last group (frog ferrymen) to go into the for profit university system, and they got stung by the scorpion (academics who saw the end comming). I would tell any 18 year old today that unless they were going to go into Medicine, Biology or Chemistry to go to community college and get an associates degree in what they are truly interested in. Then use the internet to learn a skill that will make them happy/money.
pre-med, biology and chemistry students need the labs that universities can provide. Even most engineering disciplines can be learned with simulators free on the web. So the idea of paying $125k to get any LAS degree is an absurdity. Future Econ/Finance majors could simply offload the last 3 years of zerohedge and be far ahead of most econ PhDs much less BA's.
I would tell any eighteen year old to get the fuck out of this country, because it is screwed.
Uh, yeah, that's what I said! :)
"And going into $125,000 of student debt is pretty silly unless you major in engineering or something else where you develop a useful skill set and can get a good job."
Seems Perfectly Logical to Me....... What's all the fuss and hate about,
Sheesh.........
"And going into $125,000 of student debt is pretty silly unless you major in engineering or something else where you develop a useful skill set and can get a good job."
Precisely.
Where were their parents when these decisions were made?...personally, I'm sick of bailing out generational incompetence.
And what about the "puppy mill" school guidance counselers?...what is/was their role in this particular fiasco?...sounds to me like they were hooked up with tenured professors and bankers...like the crack dealer lookouts standing on the street corner waving people down a certain road.
Blue two door coming in...he wants four rocks...lol.
I'm not letting any of them walk off scott free.
"And what about the "puppy mill" school guidance counselers?"
Who else is going to "guide" the kiddies to the Captive Bolt Debt Pistol?
[Warning...lots of loud thrashing sounds (Grindcore) - Fear Of God - Pneumatic Slaughter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voJYFTwFhl8 ]
"Who else is going to "guide" the kiddies to the Captive Bolt Debt Pistol?"
Thats where I'm at.
Not everyone is cut out to be an artist (as a profession)...or a fashion designer...or whatever other claptrap has been spoonfed to them. Just because someone holds a degree doesn't make them an expert demanding top career dollar.
If it were true, all these towering, complex, Harvard & Princetonian minds wouldn't have run government debt up to such lofty levels to no real purpose.
Or would they? ;-)
You mean when they say "You can be whatever you want to be" they were lying?!?! I don't believe it!!! Oprah said if I read "The Secret" and I thought I was a billionaire it would just be so. I was still planning on being a Supermodel and President and Inventor and Famous Author and Playwright....
lol...its an amazing thing to think about. What points people will delude themselves to.
The former anorexic model/president wrote the story of her life, which won rave reviews that she never saw due to her untimely death working tirelessly on a planet saving car battery. Her funeral will be separate from the other 152 who died in her neighborhood when her lab blew up.
Life can be stranger than fiction ;-)
Our daughter's boyfriend (from a small town in the South) went into debt to study at a quality private university. Pretty deep into debt. Hw majored in electrical engineering, got a GOOD JOB and PAID off his student loans in about two years. Bravo!
A pretty good example of what should be done if you are going to go to college on someone else's dime.
Bravo for him and your daughter sounds like she may have a keeper (in the ethical, responsible sense).
We have College Pre-Pay here in Fla. Its done...four years...all they will need is to put a roof over their heads. We didn't want to do everything for them. They will have to make their own hard financial choices.
We retain the veto vote on the studies. The Pre-Pay here allows for the monies to revert to the parents if the kids don't show up, unlike other plans which can be viewed as tax dodges where the money goes to the kids at eighteen...who may opt for a red Corvette...lol.
Usury creates inflation because it's a parasite and can't exist without a host.
So, even though mortgage interest is tax deductible, you wouldn't consider it as part of an investment strategy because it's using someone else's dime?
And you don't use margin ether, right?
Right. In my case, no mortgage, no margin, no debt. No worries.
snarc: Very un-american of you. No mortgage interest deduction. No way to get huge cap gains loss write downs. No way to default/bankrupt strategically when the time is right, or get some type of bailout or principal write down for student loan or mortgage.
Please tell me you atleast have a small business and expense the crap out of everything you touch.
/snarc
We moved back from Canada after a five year stint while I worked as a software architect for a company in Victoria, BC. My daughter spent three years in high school pursuing a course of study that she loved - illustration and visual arts - and the she evinced a great deal of talent for. When we came back to the states, she ended up her senior year having to take the equivalent of 20 credit hours of classes for two semesters in order to get all the "required" courses that the US high school didn't recognize as being "transferable" - none of them in her arena of interest. The irony is that she somehow managed to avoid the college trap in the process.
After a number of talks with family, friends and people in the field (her uncle is a software game designer who knows a great number of peopl in both the animation and software fields), she decided to go to a community college to work on improving her skills, get an AA, pick up an apprenticeship somewhere, then going back after that to perhaps pick up advanced certification in a software gaming program. I'm fully behind her in this. Not only does it not saddle her with the debt-loads of even state "public" schools, but it means that she is learning a set of skills in the real world so that she can more effectively make use of the "higher education" of the certification programs.
It is, not surprisingly, the older, more traditional of her relatives that have been most resistant to this particular approach. For them, the college degree was the important thing, even if it came with a high price tag. Yet the irony is that she will likely get a better, more focused education pursuing this course of action rather than going after the degree mill paper. This is a revolution that needs to be happening in the US, and I see signs that it may very well be taking place in the wake of Penn State. Before the status quo changes, people have to understand all the ways that the status quo gets insidiously enforced, the unwritten, unstated rules that nonetheless guide our thinking in powerful ways. As schools price themselves out of existence, students wishing to learn and improve their skills will start moving outside that system, and in the process will establish the new paradigm.
bravo to you for supporting your daughter's choice to stick with what she loves, rather than forcing her to go into something just for the (supposed) future wages. the plan you lay out is smart - getting whatever certificates she may need to impress future employers with her intent, yet also aiming for real on-the-job experience - apprenticeships are a better way to learn, bypassing the tedium of most job-jobs. her chosen field also rewards creativity, which is stifled at most colleges (which are little more than party-fests).
it's really good to hear a parent who genuinely cares about their child's happiness.
"Where were their parents when these decisions were made?...personally, I'm sick of bailing out generational incompetence"
I often wonder that myself but just to cheer you up, You don't have to worry about bailing out mine!
"And what about the "puppy mill" school guidance counselers?...what is/was their role in this particular fiasco?..."
Following the Illegal Drug Trade Management flowchart, I'd say they are akin to low level street pushers........
Such an exquisite and cultured use of language is obviously the hallmark of a modern-day liberal arts major.
That's what you got for a $125,000 English degree?
I'd be pissed off, too!
A good place to mention...
The "Liberal Arts" are traditionally mathematics, philosophy, astronomy, grammar, rhetoric, history, and music.
These are *mostly* essential elements of the pre-professional training that an engineer would receive.
Most folks here who sneer at "liberal arts" degrees are probably more accurately thinking of "humanities" majors. But then again, to sneer at liberal arts study is pretty contemptuous of education in general, so maybe they just never learned anything.
now don't go placing consequences on them, they didn't ask for that! I think it's delicious irony that dead weights who majored in any degree, so long as it didn't include division by square roots are going to pull down the very system that's supporting their idiot parents (who were their enablers, by action or inaction) at the peak of their boomer retirement paradise.
They almost had it... bloated retirement benefits from a fulfilling career in a social works job that they were entrenched in, and now their precious snowflake has gone and tracked shit on the carpet. Ruined the whole scam. Going to have to work like hell in their final years just to buy those bags of Alpo, IF they live through the transition.
I majored in engineering and make a good salary, but at the same time I understand that the elite soldout their countrymen to the Third World because they could work those people into the ground. It's not even "free trade" if such a thing exists. Due to currency rate manipulation, China can undercut U.S. workers illegally. On top of that, these Third Worlders don't expect anything, including benefits or weekends off. I know it's crazy and Americans should just tighten their belts, but they seem to want to lead decent lives! I know, what is wrong with these Westerners. Americans have been steadily working more hours since the 1950s, have transitioned to double income households and despite increased productivity, all of those gains have gone to the very top 1 percent. And you'd be surprised how few of those top 1% are actually skilled. Many of them either inherit the money, come from wealth, or play the casino at Wall Street. Engineers and programmers don't tend to do nearly as well as Daddy Warbucks working at Goldman who majored in "finance."
There is a growing disconnect between skilled and unskilled labor. And the unskilled labor that demand some benefits and a decent life are being kicked into the ground. Not everyone had a great headstart and plenty of people make bad choices, but can't just be disposed of because they majored in English.
Americans sold out America when they started shopping at Walmart.
They didn't have to, they could have patronized businesses that retailed American made products. But Jenny Sixpack needed money to have her nails done so she bought a cheap import that she will replace five times rather than the homegrown which, at that time, were built to last a lifetime.
If you recall, there was a time when Walmart played up their offering of made in America products. Outsourcing our unskilled labor to the third world, leaving America with a structural unemployment problem, was a far broader trend. You can't really blame Walmart any more than any other retailer. They get the blame only because they are the biggest. The real blame should be fixed on the political class that let China into the WTO for trinkets and beads.
I disagree. I think it really starts with the political class. Unfortunately, when you have a place like Wal-Mart, you can't rely on people to not shop there and buy American goods because they will be undercut in life by those who buy cheaper goods. Essentially, the system is almost always bigger than the individual, despite the American myth that says otherwise.
Even for people who are holdouts, refusing to shop at Wal-Mart, you'll have a large percentage who do to the point where it becomes increasingly difficult for those people to not buy foreign goods because American alternatives slowly disappear. These people don't necessarily have to shop at Wal-Mart to buy foreign goods, because foreign goods become ubiquitous everywhere. This holdout may hang on even then, but slowly Wal-Mart kicks out other businesses (many who also sell stuff from China) until Wal-Mart may be the only player in town. Political decisions made at the very top lead Joe Six-Pack to have his wages and benefits cut, until he is slowly squeezed into shopping for every cheaper goods. I could go on and on, the point is that things are not as simple as "Don't shop at Wal-Mart." The world is much more complex and forces far beyond the control of the individual are at work.
People on this website tend to be highly individualistic and anti-government, often clinging to faith in the "goodness" of their beliefs and the Puritan work ethic. The people in power laugh at these notions and manipulate them for their own ends. There are countries and there are politicians that have successfully stopped a lot of the insanity that has taken place in the U.S., the problem is that our particular government is not those governments, and actually could give a damn about us.
+1. It is not just the oustsourcing of jobs and foriegn products, it is also the debt. Public and private. Try to be a young person out on the town, puritan ethic or no ... you can not compete with the guy driving an imported benz bought on a liar loan for the mcmansion filled with chinese crap bought on the heloc. You simply can not compete for influence or a mate.
Many banks and other financial institutions did not want to get into this mess. So the ones that did bought congress and forced all financial institutions to play the game with the community re-investment act. Then when the bail outs came "they" again forced everyone to take bailouts whether wanted or not. Typical Ivy League skull and bones frat rushing bunga bunga stuff. Or like "making bones" in the Mob. If everyone is guilty of moral hazard, then no one can rat. And if anyone does get caught, it is revealed that everyone is a criminal, and we cant prosecute everybody, so we we prosecute no one. Not even the pure evil ring leaders. (Corzine, Mozillo, Dodd, etc)
You covered the trade defict and jobs. I tried to cover the debts (public and private). The political class and crony capitalism have ruined this country. As you mentioned they overpowered all the decent instiutions. The average Joe has no choicce but to drink the the kool-aid now.
I don't, and won't, ever, shop at Wal-Mart because they drove the mom 'n' pop small family business into the ground, on purpose, while simultaneously using government welfare & food stamps to subsidise their piss-poor wages for their "crew members."
oh, and every time I look, they've at least three or four of their Walton Clan in Forbes top ten billionaire list - Fuck Wallyworld, and every mindless, soulless person who shops there.
Have you forgotten what American cars were like before imports were widely available? Yes, I see that you have.
American manufacturing (not just cars mind you) gave up without a fight.
I also majored in engineering and make a decent living. That being said, I could have gone to work immediately after college and be making more than I am by now and without the student loans. College is a huge fraud perpetuated by the idiots in the public education system. Every public school should be shut down and the braindead teachers should be forced to actually produce instead of being leaches.
Well -- OK -- but I did learn to recite Ozymandias!
[Citation needed]
That line's grown old and tired.
Uh, yea. Life sucks and is generally unfair. They are learning the hard way.
Am I the only one that's not buying the, "My whole 4 years in college, nobody told me my degree in 18th century French literature, with a minor in Chicano studies, wasn't going to score me a job making $200K right out of college. I got screwed!" Is the current generation of 20-something's really so clueless and high on entitlement? If so, America is even more f*cked than I thought.
[sarc]Of course, if you had majored in economics or business administration, then you'd be set for life, even if you did have the mental accuity of a kumquat.[/sarc]
I majored in physics with minors in mathematics and astronomy, and would have majored in mathematics instead, save that I was repeatedly told by all the "knowledgeable" people that getting a mathematics degree was a complete waste of time and money. In college I supported myself by programming, and I've been in IT (and have written more than a dozen books on programming) since then. In retrospect, I really wish I'd gotten the math degree.
What I learned from college was the process of thinking logically and analytically, and of learning how to teach myself. I've not had to calculate a Bessel function or solve Schroedinger's equation since I graduated, but I would say that the STEM course that I had has made me a much better programmer and systems architect.
The student majoring in 18th century French Literature has learned how to work with a foreign language at a deep level, has developed analytical skills, has amassed a great deal of understanding of a formative period of history and its philosophical underpinnings, has learned how to research and support a thesis, an many other skills. Chances are good that they'd make a superb analyst, because those skills carry over into other endeavors, and they may have a fairly rich understanding about economics by having the deep context of a classic case study of fiat currencies collapsing (John Law, anyone?).
If I was hiring a person and had two candidates for a business position, one with a degree in 18th centry French Lit and the other in business administration or economics, I'd pick the former every time. Why? The BA degree is an attempt to encapsulate in classes what should be understood by real world experience, which tells me that this person is looking for a shortcut that won't be as painful or as time consuming. If they're going to cut corners with their life experiences, where else are they going to cut corners. The French Lit major, on the other hand, pursued their passion even if it didn't necessarily have an obvious renumerative value, stuck with it, and was willing to look outside the box to do something they wanted rather than something that they thought would make them rich. This passion likely will translate into other aspects of their lives.
I'd rather hire a mathematician or a systems analyst than an economist, because the former understand the concepts of models and modeling, while the economist all too often has learned models, but not modeling, which means that their understanding begins and ends with the domains they've studied and they have some dangerous blind spots as a consequence.
I would say that if in fact the current 20-somethings are becoming mathematicians and French Lit majors and illustrators its because they are not after the money, they are not interested in enslaving themselves to the "money" model, and that in all likelihood they will have a far more fulfilling and interesting life than the damned MBA of a previous generation who got the degree because it was a money ticket.
ahhh, you're on a roll tonight sir!
the difference between learning how to think critically, and memorising how to perform in a specific discipline - priceless.
So what now?
Occupy the NY Supreme Court
Where? If the real figures for unemployment are above 15% (versus the conservative estimate of 10%), then there's going to be thousands of people applying for one position paying $7.25 an hour ($2.13 an hour if it's a job that involves tips), and only one person can actually get that position. That still leaves tons of people with no money, looking for work.
Or did I miss your sarcasm tag?
So... now what?
We need a new political party. Maybe the Reform Party can be resurrected. They have the right idea, I think.
http://reformparty.org/
An older and grumpier Ross Perot doing 30 minute political infomercials. Bring on the charts!
What happened to the other judge's ruling? I'm confused now.
This'll look good on international news when it gets into the Supreme court. Who says NYC judges aren't bought and paid for by corporate interests?
Now push comes to shove.
I don't think the Occupiers are going away folks.
What about the rose garden at the White House? Take care of two things at the same time.
If they can't occupy it, maybe they'll burn it.
Tha roof, tha roof, tha roooof iz on fy-yaa
No, it's off to the Free Speech Zone...
http://rense.com/1.mpicons/Gate%28R%291.jpg
Free Speech Zone should be familiar from their college days, for those that went, right?
...or perhaps it's off to the Free Torch Zone (a.k.a. the Hamptons).
...or perhaps just #OccupyForeclosures. Everybody else is...
Winter is coming. Just wait until the heat of next summer for things to really get rolling.
Farmers almanac says revolutions only happen in summer anyway. Duh!
sadly, that's the same line used here last winter. . .
JLee....
Same "what now" going through the reptilian section of what's left of my brain and I'm coming up with Not Good Scenarios.
And I must qualify this as not being biased for or against Occupy... a different consideration altogether being well explored elsewhere in this thread
Reminds me of the nascent ages of Civil Rights and Vietnam protests. People exercising what they percieve to be their Constitutional Rights (right or wrong matters not here) of free speech and freedom of assembly.
Society starts interfering with the protestors through Police Power.
Things turn nasty, gain greater and broader press coverage.
Becomes a nightly news item of sorts, visibility increases.
People come to believe that "their" as in "own" Constitutional Rights may be/are/or can be/getting too fucking close to be being violated, Big Brother is Watching.
Big Brother is not enforcing the People's Rights (in thios case as opposed to the banksters/politicians/the machine's whatever... ya'll get the drift)
Add this to the dimension of the 99%, anger at the Banks, Washington, Patriot Act, Jobs, Foreclosure, Prices, Pabulum, God Knows What Else People are pissed about, etc.
This will not end gently, gracefully or calmly. A new chapter in the dynamics of today's debate has been opened.
The Court has Sided With TPTB.
There will be Anger.
Unfortunately, there Will Likely Be Blood, similar to the Civil Rights and Vietnam Excursions.
A fuse has been lighted.
That's my guess, and I do not intend to be drawn into who is right or wrong. I have my own very strong opinion, which is immaterial to this line of thought.
I have a feeling this anger is more widespread and will become more intense than even the civil rights movement or the vietnam protests. This is going to be epic. The level of anger at this point is mild compared to what it will be by next summer. Shit gon get real.
The court always sides with the status quo, because they are a fundamentally conservative institution, in the sense that they represent tradition and precedent. The courts in the US also have long had a strong corporate bias to them, especially SCOTUS and the Federal circuit courts. While there are activist judges on both sides of the political spectrum, such activism is generally discouraged, especially when the issues involved are property-rights or corporate centric.
Yes, blood will flow. It will be worse than the 1960s, and perhaps worse than the 1930s. People respond to bloodshed in a visceral way, and bloodshed in the age of the Internet will get out faster than the mainstream media can bottle it up. By this summer, there will be martyrs - people who were killed because the protests went from being peaceful to being violent, because the police were forced into moral quandries that they were not prepared for, because there has been a slow but steady militarization of the police in this country that will manifest in people getting killed.
This is the danger that the elite in this country face. If they push too hard, they will create martyrs, and the martyrs in their death will end up becoming far more potent as symbols than those people were in life. You will note that the MSM has been very careful even with coverage of the Jasmine revolutions in the spring not to name names of those who died, precisely because of this fact. If people are martyred, then we will have stepped into the next phase of this revolution, one where crackdowns go from being localized to being systematic, with the very real possibility being the imposition of martial law and the paradoxic revocation of the Rule of Law. When the law ceases to be impartial, then the state is on the path to collapse, especially in such a large country as the United States.
When the law ceases to be impartial, then the state is on the path to collapse, especially in such a large country as the United States.
Your conclusion is right on target. We've seen that the law is most definitely partial to the elite, and I have no doubt we are on the path to collapse. The only question is my mind is how long they can prolong the illusion that we haven't already gone over the event horizon.
I agree. When one can no longer petition the government for redress of grievances through peaceful assembly, when ones vote no longer counts because the R is the same as the D, when calls to representatives register 90,000:1 against a bill but the bill passes, when they unleash the blue hounds to dole out beatings - violence awaits the ruling class. It is only a matter of time. Time to become a turtle, grab some popcorn, and watch the fireworks.
Sure they are.
They're going to Iran.
Now, the US will move toward the point where they will fall like Rome, which is what this Harvard law professor says is coming in this RT video.
http://www.ftense.com/2011/10/united-states.html
The parallels to Rome are incredible.
Those OWS protestors have no idea what comes their way when it happens. I should feel sorry for them but I don't. I think they deserve the suffering and hardship they will experience for the first time in their lives.
After two months of living in tents, THEY KNOW. The hard core will not fold and there are too many to imprison (besides which the prisons are already full, 1 in 100 Americans are behind bars now). The Government, our Government is busy creating it's own destruction. Wait till a few Occupiers get killed on live TV and see what happens.
Living in a tent and having plenty to eat is hardship? You don't understand what happens when whatever money you had became as worthless as Zimbabwe bucks overnight.
Well, hell yeah man! It's made them HARD CORE. The privations they've endured. /sarc off.
Agreed on the hardship thing. My folks came from post-War Europe, and the stories of what they had to confront as children under 10 would make your hair stand on end.
But on the Zimbabwe bux, I'd think it'd be a boon to have hyperinflation when you're deep in debt. It'd take a pack of matches to pay off that pesky student debt.
Infrared cameras show nearly none of the tents are occupied at night. Camping out with access to any plumbing at all is not roughing it, try boundary waters or Ak for a few weeks, thats roughing it.
What is truly amazing is that the large majority of Americans probably won't give a shit. The protestors have been universally protrayed by the MSM as unwashed trust fund and/or lazy hippie commies who have whatever bad thing happens coming to them. Most of the police see the protestors as less than human. Drudge even has many of his readers convinced they are all rapists. It has been truly enlightening to watch the propaganda war. I hate to say it, but TPTB are winning that war big time by my observation.
Yep, they did the same with the Tea Party: infiltrated them, demonized them, and marginalized them. TPTB will do the same with any populist uprising. The Status Quo must be maintained at any cost. I'm sick of trying to explain to people that the Occupy movement isn't all hippie/student/rapists, they are you and me. They are disillusioned republicans, democrats, tea partiers, and libertarians. Middle of the road people who know they've been fucked by TPTB. The media gets the lead role for demonizing the movement, and all the people that buy into the media's representation get the assist. Nice work.
I think time is changed. Simply protesting will not change any thing. Vote will not work either because politicians are on sale. Right thing to do is, stop spending. This way you do not break any law. If you can, commute on bicycle. Park your car. Sell it if you can. Cook your food home and take your lunch with you. Never buy clothes if you have one pair. Try to live three days a week without spending a dime. Even by doing so nothing changes, you will have some saving.
Please tell us what they really are? I have investigated this as much as my time allows and frankly the vast majority seem to be spoiled brats that do not feel like they got a fair shake after college. I feel much worse for ma and pa tea party who have save all their lives brought up children who are productive and are about to have that security ripped from them. If that was part of the OWS message we have something in common other wise not, they are just spoiled brats and useful idiots fronting for their Acorn and SEIU masters..
Your ACORN reference reveals your ideology, but I will respond anyway. No doubt some of the protestors are spoiled brats. Even those who are have a legitimate grievance against a corrupt system. If the son of a wealthy slave owner protests slavery, does it render the subject of the protest any less valid?
Your ACORN reference to my reference reveals your failed ideaology but I will deign to respond. These children and their choices somehow equate to a prince protesting slavery, yes you certainly are an ACORN acolyte as your rhetoric cannot simply state facts. The choices that were made by these folks put them in their predicament. If these were successful bond and equity traders protesting your point would perhaps serve but alas it is just class warfare. The transparency of the "movement" as an Obama vehicle is obvious. The time is coming for side choosing, choose wisely.
It's sad that a war veteran (Scott Olsen), regardless of his stance on war itself, was shot in the head with rubber bullets, and the nation that prides itself on war and its heroes didn't see this as a major problem.
Oh wait... is that a Kardashian over there...?
And then what? They cry "Mommy" and get a Lawyer!!!
They should have changed tactics after they got their attention. They should have started organizing disruptions. Send 15 people to a busy intersection at an inconvenient time, chain themselves together and to opposite street lights and wait to be arrested. Do this sporadically over the city and it's shut down. Send dozens to city offices to clog lines, become a royal nuisance. Camping in the park and not changing tactics is like building a castle and waiting to get stormed. It will and you will lose. Become a peaceful Urban Guerrilla...a pain in their ass. Squeaky wheels get the grease.
+1 LJS....I wonder how many OWS protestors are on welfare and use those 'credit card swippers' to eat...Jesus H...Where's my passport!!!
I would wager the grand total of all their welfare benefits would be considerably less than the banksters corporate welfare.
"Wealth transfer is only deemed outrageous when the lower class is the recipient"
Long time comin'
Meanwhile...
'Buffett: Returns ‘Terrific’ as U.S. Workers Suffer'What an unbelievable fucking headline. Sociopaths are the majority in America by a country mile now.
Who cares. Mostly lazy bums who want a handout. Wait, that's half of the US and most of Europe.
Inaccurate. Half of Europe and most of US.
No, the original poster was correct - nearly half of Americans get help from the Government, pay no taxes etc. That would be most of Europe with early retirement at 50 or so.
There are only 535 members of Congress...well Ron Paul doesn't count and Boner and Pelosi count twice...I lost count.
I don't think the Goldman parasites or JPMorgan leeches were at OWS; the lazy bums are still getting handouts from the comfort of their climate-controlled offices.
75% of the poor in the US are lazy. They would rather take a handout from the government than go to work. Only about 25% of the poor in the US actually need government help.
100% of the top 1% in the US are lazy. They would rather take a bailout from the government than go to work. Only about 0% of the top 1% in the US actually need government help.
Posted similar in WB7's latest. On Bloomberg TV today they had a harvard prof say "OWS people dont have the skills that the top 1% do" WB7 has a good representation of the "skills" the top 1% have. He just left out "people are corporations too -- 'I pay 13% tax' -- Mitt Romney/John Kerry"
51% non taxpayers + 1% elite +15% direct and indirect employees of the government = 67% vs. 33% slave class.
We need to go full europe where the similar numbers are 40%+1%+50% vs. 9%.
I wish people would say exactly which "1%" they are referring to. The top 1% in net worth starts at about $1.2 million, which is hardly fabulous riches these days.
do you still comprehend the "99%" as the overwhelming majority of humans?
60% of statistical quotations are bullshit.
And why does any corporation need government help? Any lazy (or corrupt) person or corporation should not receive government assistance. The left supports welfare for the individual and the right supports welfare for the corporation....BOTH are wrong!
Most of you haters can't make it in a corporate system. It's survival of the fittest. Losers are weeded out and flushed down to government. Government overflows with inept corporate losers.
Good thing the government jobs are cushier and pay better.
On average.
Most of you corporate losers can't make it in your own business. It's survival of the fittest. Business losers are weeded out and flushed down to the corporate environment, really just a big daycare, and when you fail there, then it's work for government.
If by "fittest", you mean "cronies", then that is true of most big corporations.
I like the "News" about the "clean up" how it happened "overnight" instead of "3am with little warning."
Occupy DC bitchezz. This was never about Wall St. you bunch of low brows.
Be smart. Hibernate for the winter. In the spring- a gigantic march on Washington. Shut that friggin city down. For good.
Bullish for tear gas. Anyone know a good ETF for the crowd control industry?
FRPT? Oh wait, that was a company GD just bought out....
The Soylent Green Corporation may be worth looking into.
Their motto: "To Serve Mankind".
Given how much OWS squandered their chance to be something signficant, I guess their new movement is called "Occupy Mom's Basement"
Well what did they expect? The bankers need/own the govt and the govt needs/regulates the bankers. It's a symbiotic relationship that's lead to state corporatism or corporate statism. Protest capitalism all you want - the problem is we don't have any. If you think the power brokers are going to let a few smelly hippies sink the ship, you haven't been paying attention..
"Protest capitalism all you want - the problem is we don't have any"
S'truth!! Surprising how many folks don't get that.
When folks no longer have legal avenues to protest...they will take "illegal" and potentially increasingly violent means. This simply escalates the stakes.
Yeah, well that's the dream at least of someone sitting behind a keyboard. "Gosh, violence sounds soooo cool! I hope someone does it, I want to watch!!"
Sorry to say, the days of Ghandi went years ago.
TPTB will only take notice of violence. And it puts them in a corner. Fight back like Moubarak or fight back like Assad?.
I expect it.
Maybe 100 years ago, but not today. America will go down quietly with nothing even approaching what you could call a revolution.
America won't be saved. Save yourself instead.
So what's a revolution? Revolutions can be described as the loss of legitimacy of the existing power structure and the subsequent creation of a new power structure outside the bounds of the previous power structure. When the Shah of Iran fell in the 1970s, that was a revolution - a central dictator was replaced by a theocracy.
When Mubarrak fell in Egypt, it was largely through the agency of protests, and again it removed a dictator, though it kept the military in place (and that military is almost certainly working to place a new strongman of its choosing into a position of authority). Is that a revolution? Jury's still out on that one.
Greece and Italy both had "regime" changes, but the countries remain parliamentary in nature, and the people "appointed" into positions of leadership are both Goldman Sachs alumni (curious that). I rather doubt either government will last the year, at which point both countries likely will have fallen in revolutions.
I think one of the problems with the concept of a revolution in the United States is that it's too large and too diffuse and there are too many levels of authority. Right now there is a protest going on about the levels of financial inequality that the country as a whole has reached. There's a growing realization that without really intending to the US has become a corporate oligarchy (I'd use the word fascist state because it's technically accurate, but it also is heavily loaded with emotional overtones) that is at odds with the political charter under which most people assume we operate.
What is most likely to happen is that the US is likely to oscillate between political states for a while - 2008 saw a populist president put in place, 2010 saw a reactionary backlash, 2012 will likely be a more radical populist uprising as existing politicians at all levels are replaced, 2014 will see another reactionary backlash as those in power attempt to regain control of the political reigns.
At some point, I think that the reactionary forces will conclude that they cannot gain control through even semi-legitimate means, and will take the next step - either a deliberate coup or secession. I'm leaning toward the latter - it can be argued that the election of George W Bush was a coup attempt that succeeded, but that made the mistake of leaving the political processes in place (even if compromised), and I think that if the reactionary forces in 2012 are unable to cause a political change legitimately, then secession is the more likely course of action. Such a secession would of course be a revolutionary action. Depending upon how strong the Federal government is at the time of such a secession (and there are signs that it will be very weak indeed) the reaction to such a secession could be anything from a greenlighting (in which case, you'll see other regions decide to become autonomous) to a civil war, which might very well have the same effect.
The critical thing here is that the revolution will almost certainly not be from the current protesters (who are, if anything, arguing for a return to a more democratic form of government), but will be from the reactionary forces in the country who believe that their social and economic values no longer match those of the vile "liberals" and "socialists". Most likely these would be aided and abetted by corporations that see the formation of a new "country" as an opportunity to expand into markets with what would likely be little corporate fetterment. However, once this did happen, the cohesion of the union itself would likely fall apart, and the US (and perhaps parts of Canada and Mexico) would end up reforming along largely historical settlement patterns.
I don't think we're there yet, but the longer the stresses in the country continue to rise, the more likely this will be the end state, most likely with some conflict between nascent states as new political boundaries and resource grabs are ascertained. Timeline to play out will likely be 50 years or so, but we're in the early stages of this process now.
Well written. Did you watch charlie rose tonight? Your theories mesh up with Lessig.
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11992
Money and politics, US being too large to government with out it. Another particular point is that Obama is a "populist" president in stump speaches only, and has not achieved any of his promises other than healthcare. Charlie asked him "Well then, who would you have elected POTUS in 2012?" He says "Buddy Romer, but he is un-electable so lets have Obama again!"
Its not so much populist/reactionary backlash as it is the illusion of backlash. Speaking in facts, not campaign promises, GWB actually sent out $600 checks to people, thats more populist than anything Obama has done.
#occupy270parkave
#occupy200westst
Sorry folks. The park is closed. Moose out front should have told ya.
By JR Nyquist11/14/2011
While cleaning out a closet, going through a box full of old magazines, I found the April 2002 Volume 17 edition of Marxist Review. There was a banner across the front cover of the magazine which read, “THE OCCUPATION OF RAMALLAH.” I opened the front cover and read, “Palestinians emerge stronger from three-day occupation of Ramallah On-the-spot report,” by Anna Athow and Paddy O’Regan. The use of the term “occupation” did not seem at all haphazard. Yesterday there was the “occupation of Ramallah,” and today there is an “occupation of Wall Street.” Tomorrow we will see the occupation of “everywhere.”
I was curious about the occupation of Ramallah (which took place nearly a decade ago). Why was an English language Communist magazine committed to making an “on-the-spot” report about it? I turned to page 16 of the magazine and read. The article described an Israeli terror campaign, and the brave Palestinians who marched to occupy Ramallah. It was a battle in which unarmed women allegedly stood up to Israeli tanks. There was also a picture of a 14-year-old boy shot in the chest, recovering in a hospital (there were also pictures of armed Palestinian militants fending off Israeli snipers).
How was this article related to Marxism? In Marxist theory, the Palestinians are representatives of the international proletariat, while their “Jewish and imperialist” oppressors represent the international bourgeoisie. This was not stated explicitly in the article, but anyone familiar with Marxist patterns of thought will recognize this theme. On page 22 I found a more explicit admission, in the form of an article titled “The Palestinian Revolution and the Fourth International,” by Ray Athow. It was about Communist Trade Union support for the oppressed Palestinians. There was a subsection titled “Imperialism and Zionism,” which described Israel as a mercenary state under the direction of “imperialism.” According to this interpretation, the Arab masses are natural allies of the British and American working class.
Given past resemblances, we should not be surprised to find that the Communist Party USA has declared its solidarity with the Palestinian cause as well as the Occupy Wall Street movement, along with a hodgepodge of socialists and fellow travelers, as shown in many representative videos (see Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C). It is a fact that various political causes throughout the world are linked, and this is no accident. Amidst ideological double-talk, confusion and ignorance, the Occupy Movement appears to be a thinly disguised socialist push for power, exploiting today’s economic crisis under a banner of popular outrage aimed at Wall Street. Behind the half-educated, semi-literate rank-and-file protestors there exists an elite cadre of revolutionaries who follow an international strategy. Their objective is to overthrow capitalism, smash the free market, and establish a socialist commonwealth.
But how is this possible? The majority of protestors could hardly be Communists. Alas, one need not be a Communist to serve the Revolution. One need only be a “useful idiot.” Consider, in this respect, a recently published book written by Paul Kengor, titled Dupes: How America’s Adversaries Have Manipulated Progressives for a Century. “Communist propagandists,” writes Kengor, “[have] conducted duping on a remarkable, deliberate scale and with remarkable, deliberate craftsmanship – with America’s liberals and progressives as the prime target.” His book is carefully researched, well-written and factual. Kengor says that the fall of the Soviet Union did not spell the end of the duping process. “The plain, undeniable – but historically unappreciated – fact is that the dupe has played a significant role in the recent history of America and in the nation’s ability to deal with destructive opponents.” Undoubtedly this is the essence of what we see today in the Occupy Movement. It is easy to confuse the public mind, to blame capitalism for inequality. Such is the game of those who seek power for themselves, but do not possess the necessary wealth or standing. They manipulate an ignorant mob, and organize unrest.
The truly annoying thing about capitalism – for socialist revolutionaries– is that the peaceful competition for political power involves the use of cash instead of guns. Those who hate the capitalist system would prefer something more in tune with the Dark Ages, where political power involves the extermination of rivals. It may be doubted whether the supporters of the Occupy Movement fully appreciate what their anti-capitalist rhetoric signifies. If the rich do not dominate through the peaceful medium of money, the only other medium would be naked violence. In that case, politics would not require spending more money than a political opponent. It would require the opponent’s “liquidation.” Such, in fact, was the character of socialism when it first came to power nearly a century ago (in Russia).
“The most passionate detractors of capitalism are those who reject it on account of its alleged injustice,” wrote Ludwig von Mises in The Anti-Capitalist Mentality. “The truth is that the accumulation of capital and its investment in machines … are due exclusively to … capitalism….” All society is enriched by the unprecedented success of businessmen. In America we are truly blessed to live under the capitalist system, and cursed insofar as we live under a system where the free market is hampered. “All those rejecting capitalism on moral grounds as an unfair system are deluded by their failure to comprehend what capital is,” wrote Mises. All of society enjoys the benefits that Wall Street makes possible.
The solution for oppressed Palestinians or unemployed American workers is the same: more capitalism and not less; peaceful economic competition and not violent protests. The definition of the word occupy is “to seize possession of and maintain control over.” The definition of the word freedom is “the absence of coercion.” In Wall Street we find the productive potential of freedom. Those who would occupy Wall Street, signify freedom’s curtailment.
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/jr-nyquist/2011/11/14/the-mea...
http://thefinalphaseforum.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=44
so now american citizens truly are the new palestinians... suffering under the zionist boot. long live fascism.
Well thats 3 minutes of my life I will never get back. What a crock of shit. If nobody protests, I guess in the universe you live in, the one with faeries and unicorns, TPTB will just do the right thing and institute this "capitalism" thing you speak of? TPTB will see the error of thier socialist ways? Oh thats right, in your universe the protestors are marxists, and the banks are pillars of capitalism.
Your're a fuckhead, and so is the auther.
The "auther" is one of the most knowledgeable experts on communist/socialist history, tactics, and strategy in the world today. You, on the other hand, besides being somewhat illiterate, show yourself to have no knowledge of the subject of the article whatsoever.
total blather... if I wanted fascist garbage, I would tune into glen beck's show.
So you either believe what we have now is capitalism, in which case you are a moron. Or you beleive posting stupid articles on zerohedge is more productive in bringing about said capitalism then legitimate protest, in which case you are a fuckhead.
OWS has done more to get people talking about the Federal reserve and corporate bailouts than anyone or anything else. Sure they might be a bit misguided, but their education consisted of 12 years worth of brainwashing. They know something is wrong, just not how to fix it. Still worth 1000 of wankers like you.
Hey fnord88 i think you better wake up because here are a few picks that will change your mind. Yes there are protestors that are protesting for the right reasons, but there are alot of other protesters that are not, such as the communist party and socialist party all at occupy wall street.
We need to be carefull that the protest go the right way, because they can easily be infiltrated and go the wrong way.
http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=occupy+toronto+socialism&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbm=isch&tbnid=_7I3UKPQ64OBsM:&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_socialist_movement_in_the_United_States&docid=HrbcIBOqHMDM_M&imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Democratic_Socialists_Occupy_Wall_Street_2011_Shankbone.JPG/220px-Democratic_Socialists_Occupy_Wall_Street_2011_Shankbone.JPG&w=220&h=146&ei=UeTCTrbKFcre0QHH64mKDw&zoom=1&biw=1094&bih=773&iact=rc&dur=204&sig=109056739255174593215&page=5&tbnh=116&tbnw=176&start=84&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:84&tx=84&ty=57
http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=occupy+toronto+socialism&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbm=isch&tbnid=LrVaRGaa-QDqaM:&imgrefurl=http://tanstaaflcanada.blogspot.com/2011/10/occupy-toronto-cant-star-get-anything.html&docid=PgK6xGFyggdmsM&imgurl=http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/occupy-toronto.jpg%253Fw%253D620&w=620&h=465&ei=UeTCTrbKFcre0QHH64mKDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=95&vpy=458&dur=1159&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=132&ty=117&sig=109056739255174593215&page=1&tbnh=130&tbnw=173&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:0&biw=1094&bih=773
http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=occupy+toronto+socialism&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbm=isch&tbnid=s28PjWXKkQ9JJM:&imgrefurl=http://frontpagemag.com/2011/10/17/occupy-toronto/&docid=A1P1Q9NOAugmtM&imgurl=http://cloud.frontpagemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/occupy1.jpg&w=400&h=300&ei=UeTCTrbKFcre0QHH64mKDw&zoom=1&biw=1094&bih=773&iact=rc&dur=345&sig=109056739255174593215&page=3&tbnh=127&tbnw=171&start=40&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:40&tx=76&ty=93
This is the beginning of anarchy vs. statism.
Oh I agree with you 100%. But you think it is a coincidence that the words money, wealth, fractional reserve, inlfation, fiat etc are never mentioned in school. They may be misguided, but they are portesting because they know something is wrong. It is up to us to help explain the way the economy works. Articles dismissing them as marxists tools, like the one above, are stupid and counter productive.
The truly annoying thing about capitalism – for socialist revolutionaries– is that the peaceful competition for political power involves the use of cash instead of guns.
Uh, no. The annoying part is that only 1% of the population has enough cash to participate in that "peaceful competition for political power," but we're told that our governments are democracies, or democratic, or representative. None of those three conditions obtain.
Author is an obvious moron. He probably doesn't realize he's a fascist, but hey, useful idiots are useful.
Socialist systems involve the consolidation of power into the hands of far fewer than 1% of the population, with zero chance for those outside the Party to achieve anything approaching power, and those within it obliged to blindly follow the dictates of the handful of those at the top. You fail to recognize this fact, or the fact that the problems within our own system have as their origins the efforts of the leaders of the system you defend.
What system do you think I'm defending?
You defend socialism, even if only by default. The protests, whether you wish to believe it or not, have not been infiltrated by socialists, but planned and executed by them. The protests are not designed to cause any improvement in our capitalist system, for that would be counter-revolutionary, and counter-revolutionary actions, it is my duty to inform you, are strictly forbidden by Marxist/Leninist theory and strategy. The organizers of the protests have as their ultimate objective the destruction of the capitalist system itself, and to the extent that you misunderstand this objective and defend the protests, is the extent which you aid the destruction of the capitalist system which, upon its extermination, is intended to be replaced by a socialist system which can and will mimic the experience of the Soviet Union.
You must be batshit crazy, shadow-boxing with voices inside your head.
I regret that I only have one upvote to give for this comment.
Well said.
Jesus Tapdancing Christ, you need to lay off the Kool-Aid, buddy.
We don't fucking have a capitalist system. We have a centrally planned command economy. The only difference between the USSR and USSA is that Wall Street has replaced the Politburo.
Oh, give it a rest. Russian socialism was a thin veneer of egalitarianism on a culture that had long been autocratic in nature. Putin is only the latest in a long line of Russian leaders who were essentially totalitarians with a rubber stamp parliamentary system to give it an internal veneer of legitimacy. Chinese socialism is a reflection of a two millennium old bureaucracy that again hasn't really changed even with the death of the last emperor in the 1930s.
The term socialism itself is meaningless. Canada has a socialist government, in that it tends to place a higher emphasis on resources into the public sector rather than the private than the US does. The German National Socialists (aka Nazis), on the other hand, were xenophobic fascists. The current governments of Iceland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark are all socialist, yet all have both strong capitalistic and democratic underpinnings - none of them are in serious danger of being taken over by a small cadre of wealthy elite.
When Marx wrote Das Kapital in the 1860s, he was in fact writing principally about the industrial age Great Britain, the country in Europe that at the time was the most advanced in terms of the effects of the industrial age and the rise of the corporation (Germany at the time was still undergoing consolidation). What he largely failed to realize was that culture has a far large impact upon the shape of both economic and political structures than is generally acknowledged. British capitalism in the 1860s was heavily influenced both by the aristocratic basis of that culture and by the strength of the British writs of patent in the shaping of the corporate state. While his analysis about the inequalities of that system were valid, they failed to take into account historical factors (and his ideas about revolutions were based largely upon the past fifty years of European chaos, as industrialization and literacy became widespread).
In Russia, there were two revolutions that occurred - the Menshevik revolution which instituted a parliamentary form of government, and the Bolshevik revolution which in effect reverted the changes of the Menshevik revolution, but using the German interpretation of an English social inequality period as a pretext to authoritarian rule. In other words, it was no more Marxist, than any other military coup.
BTW, it's worth noting that Marx's analysis of England ultimately proved self-fulfilling, but it occurred by the rising standards of living of the working and middle class, not by overt revolution, which ironically would probably have ended up only hastening a return to an aristocratic form of government.
What violence? The police violence is the only kind that has been observed for the most part. Shitting on the imperialist flag is not violence. Speech is not violence. Assembling, camping, cooking, feeding, sheltering, speaking etc. never physically hurt another human being, but tear gas, batons, pepper spray and acoustic cannons do hurt and cause critical injuries and occassionally death.
The "free market" has failed 99% of the people. The relative comfort that americans enjoy is not a result of the "free market", but is only possible based on the extreme enforced discomfort of people around the world. For examples look at CIA intervention in central and south american democracy, or the US support of tyrannies in many oil-rich countries.
Why so sour, comrade? After all, every day that passes is one day closer to the establishment of your glorious worldwide dictatorship of the proletariat! Proletarian victory, as your hero, Marx, said, is inevitable!
its a fascist world government fool. wake up, socialism and marxism were a facade crafted by fascists.
Umm... that's exactly what he said. The word "Glorious" is the tell.
If you ever get tired of shaking your pom pons and desire an education, I recommend starting here:
http://thefinalphaseforum.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=44
The five minutes it takes to read that link can change your life.
Lack of knowledge about the history, tactics, and strategy of successful socialist revolutions spells utter defeat, descent into "1,000 years of darkness," as Reagan put it. Do your part to help avoid that fate. Humanity is counting on YOU.
Are you talking to John? (I'm with you, pal.)
I was. I replied to the wrong post. Sorry about that.
It appears they are using the "useful idiot". Funny how no one questions who is funding all these OCCUPY groups. On one weekend they had a global OCCUPY. Guess it is just one of those pesky details that the media isn't telling.
@squeal...there have been reported rapes and deaths (drug overdoses) and in Oakland they were quite destruction with damage to buildings and fire. Shitting on a police car is a far cry from the normal 99 percent of the folks I know. Folks there that admitted they were either socialist or communist. Nope not the 99 percent of the folks I know. Again...follow the money to who is supporting the OCCUPY organizations.
I'm an idiot! Where do I sign up for whatever is the next flavor of the month? I hope I get to vote for Cain/Perry/Bachman/Romney and/or Obama and/or both of them for Supreme Leader or Co-Leaders of the Glorious American Empire!
You know what comes next...Nothing...Once the keg is dry...The front yard is vandalized and 'toilet paper rolled'
I guess they can just go indoors and Occupy Goldman Sachs
Another movement will start and probably won't be as 'gentle'.
For this reason alone this development is distressing.
exactly. this is one of many escalations. you can knock OWS for being ideologically unfocused, but they bring something to the table we haven't seen in quite a while in the states -- anger that isn't just internet or "political" rage. Those people got shit to do, are pissed off, and will likely respond with real civil unrest as push comes to shove.