This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
The Latest Dexia News: Nothing Set Yet, Despite $4 Billion Proposed Purchase Of "Good Bank" By Government, 60% Of Belgium Bad Bank
The latest from Bloomberg on the story that just won't quit:
Belgium received approval from France to buy as much as 100 percent of Dexia SA (DEXB)’s Belgian consumer bank as part of proposals to dismantle the French-Belgian lender, three people with knowledge of the talks said. [read: Good Bank is fully nationalized; only Dexia's approval is now needed, and that has not come yet...]
The price of the Belgian bank is under discussion at a meeting of Dexia’s board of directors in Brussels, and an agreement on that transaction may be announced as soon as tonight, said the people, who declined to be identified because the talks are private.
Belgium and France may also have agreed that they will guarantee 60 percent and 40 percent, respectively, of the refinancing of about 120 billion euros ($160 billion) of bonds and loans held by Paris- and Brussels-based Dexia, two people said. Proceeds from the sale of Dexia’s profitable units will go to mitigate losses of what will be left of Dexia, which will form a bad bank, two of the people said.
“The suggested solution, which is also the result of intense consultations with all partners involved, will be submitted to Dexia’s board of directors for approval,” Belgian Prime Minister Yves Leterme and French Prime Minister Francois Fillon said in a joint statement today. Details weren’t disclosed.
...and from L'Echo on the story that just won't quit, google translated: "The Belgian government will buy Dexia Bank Belgium for $ 4 billion. In a second step, the regions could rise in the capital of the bank. The group will also lose his wing French, DMA, bought by the French State at a price of 650 to 700 million. The rest of Dexia becomes a bank or residual bad bank. Its liquidity needs, estimated at 90 billion euros, are guaranteed by Belgium to the tune of 54 billion. The Belgian government will buy Dexia Bank Belgium for 4 billion , has taught the writing of several government sources. A price located in the lower range mentioned by Yves Leterme. Initially, the state then own 100% of the capital."
It continues:
"In a second step, the regions could rise in the capital of the bank, as they have indicated their intention. This sale is one component of the agreement on the dismantling of Dexia concluded Sunday afternoon in Brussels between the Belgian and French prime ministers, Yves Leterme and François Fillon. The group will also lose his wing French, DMA, bought by the French State at a price of 650 to 700 million. The Deposit and Consignment reluctant, however, still faces such a price. The rest of the Dexia group becomes a bank or residual bad bank. Its liquidity needs, estimated at 90 billion, are guaranteed by Belgium, France and Luxembourg, according to the following scale: 60/36, 5 / 3, 5.
The band bank will pay the premiums on these guarantees. The Belgian Government considers that it is within the lines of its negotiating objective, namely, not to spend more than 1% of GDP (3.6 billion) for the purchase of DBB."
Epilogue? The question is whether the Dexia fate will be decided on Sunday evening. In any case, the ministers were instructed to remain on standby.
A cabinet meeting is scheduled for 22 hours for a select committee (kern) can not accept this type of operation. The time could change again. Before, the Prime Minister had said that everything depended on this " board ". As for the three regions, the agreement between the Belgian and French Governments concerned, " the worst hanging over us ", says a Walloon Minister.
But a statement from the Prime Minister had announced that " the Belgian, French and Luxembourg (...) reaffirm their solidarity in the search for a solution that ensures the future of Dexia " a solution "which is also the result of intense consultations with all stakeholders "
The Prime Minister also assured that the government is ready to help find the next few days a solution for the communal holding of Dexia. On the set of "development" of the RTBF, the finance minister spoke of " high rise "of State Belgian Dexia and said it will not only help to provide guarantees to the bank. Those made by the State in the first rescue of Dexia in 2008 did not cost him, he said.
For the future, Didier Reynders believes that, as in 2008, the State does not intend to stay forever in Dexia is no question but not to sell off its assets. " In five years or more, there may be still in it , "he said. He also believes that the "bad bank" to create is less problematic than was the case in 2008 because the assets are mainly loans long-term for municipalities, states can ensure that.
Regions, turkey stuffing?
The agreement between the Belgian and French worries the leaders of the three regions. " We were not involved or even informed , says a minister.
The worst thing hanging over us . The worst would be the failure of Holding common. The guarantees provided by the three regions of the HC bonds would then be activated.Net loss: 450 million.
And it must be added 120 million of commercial paper. Remember also that the HC has 1.2 billion to Dexia Bank, debt that would be buried in a bankruptcy. " For now, it's the tension, the total refusal to send us any information, "do you regret the Walloon government.
And contrary to earlier indications from Dow Jones, it appears that nothing is resolved yet, and the fate of Dexia will literally drag into the 11th hour:
DEXIA IN REAL TIME :
7:45 p.m. The group will lose its wing French, DMA, bought by the French State at a price of 650 to 700 million. The Deposit and Consignment reluctant, however, still faces such a price. The rest of the Dexia group becomes a bank or residual bad bank. Its liquidity needs, estimated at 90 billion, are guaranteed by Belgium, France and Luxembourg, according to the following scale: 60/36, 5 / 3, 5. The band bank will pay the premiums on these guarantees. The Belgian Government considers that it is within the lines of its negotiating objective, namely, not to spend more than 1% of GDP (3.6 billion) for the purchase of DBB.
7:09 p.m. A Council of Ministers will meet again on Sunday night to take a series of decisions on the matter Dexia. The information was confirmed by the spokesman Yves Leterme. Ministers' Meeting will be held after the Board of Directors of Dexia which is still ongoing. The purpose of the meeting would allow the government to charge the company officially Federal Participation and Investment (IFPS) to buy Dexia Bank Belgium. It is also the problem of guarantee for co Arcopar.
6:32 p.m. The ministers must remain on standby. A cabinet meeting is scheduled for 22 hours. A kern can not validate this type of operation. Only Cabinet can. The time could change again.
6:22 p.m. Based on the possibility raised to free the regions of part of the guarantee of 450 million euros that they have granted to the Holding Communal vis-à-vis Dexia Bank, the lawyer Laurent Arnauts sent an notice to the board of directors of Dexia SA and Dexia Bank Belgium and the Prime Minister.
6:11 p.m. The WSJ mentions the figure of 4 billion euros for DBB
6:06 p.m. According to the VRT, the kern is over
5:29 p.m. The directors of Dexia met in the Dexia Tower, on the 33rd floor ...
4:59 p.m. Prime Minister Yves Leterme Sunday hoped that the Board of Directors of Dexia met since 3:00 p.m. in Brussels, quickly endorsed the agreement reached by France, Belgium and Luxembourg to rescue the bank.
4:54 p.m. Regions, turkey stuffing. The agreement between the Belgian and French worries the leaders of the three regions. "We have not been involved or even informed, says a minister. The worst thing hanging over us. "The worst would be the failure of Holding common. The guarantees provided by the three regions of the HC bonds would then be activated. Net loss: 450 million. And it must be added 120 million of commercial paper. Remember also that the HC has 1.2 billion to Dexia Bank, debt that would be buried in a bankruptcy. Anyway, the day is not over, contact Federal-regions are still possible. "Right now, it's the tension, the total refusal to send us any information," do you regret the Walloon government.
4:48 p.m. The debacle of the Franco-Belgian bank Dexia has important consequences in Germany, where a subsidiary of the property is in very bad shape after giving large loans to countries in southern Europe, according to Der Spiegel published Monday.
h/t Giorgio
»
- 11817 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
I think the correct band to invoke here is: The Circle Jerks!
Unfortunately there are a host of folks who still believe that these thieves and perverts are still ordinary Joes.
What's Belgianese for turkey stuffing?
Vogelgevaar geslacht
I sincerely hope that is a machine translation. Try "kalkoen vulling" instead.
Your translation means either "bird danger gender" or "bird danger butchered". You don't want to make any mistakes with the word "geslacht" in Dutch...
The funny thing is, Belgian AFAIK doesn't even have a government, yet, how can a transition/caretaker government take such a decision?
Meanwhile in Mubarak-free Egypt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0cZESV-ec
Drunk driving?
Joking aside, that's some realness.
It's only as real as last April, when it was taped.
According to this Spiegel article, 19 people died, hundreds injured - it was a protest of Christian copts that escalated.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,790817,00.html
And not a peep from Main Stream News.
Makes you wonder what's really going on in Lybia.
*cringe* There goes France...
... it's all coming together nicely, the slices all get divided and the actual shareholders get left with... ?
So?
The shareholders are being bought out ?!?!?!
Then the banks get recapitalised ?!?!?!
Then what? The banks own themselves?
I now think they haven't even opened up this carcass. Once they do, this gobbledygook will be history. The stench will rise to the heavens.
It happened in Ireland with Anglo Irish Bank.
Estimates of the final cost to the tax payer in the region of €35bn.
No one in jail yet prima facia evidence of, to put it kindly, window dressing of the balance sheet immediately before the collapse.
only the municipales and they only get 0,038€ on the euro.
the common people who bought shares lose it all.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I suppose the municipales put the money back in then?
They'll never pull it out because they have them at 22 euro on their books.
And there will come the downgrades of the provinces from because the muncipales got a lot of revenue from the devidends.
So belgium will be downgraded for owning dexia, the provinces will be downgraded because of writedowns and the muncipales won't be able to pay their bills anymore.
It's bad, there are no winners here.
Thanks again.
Do the Belgian people understand the severity of the situation?
Nop
This will be repeated and desensitized until there will be a minor reaction at first or atleast a far less damaging one...This I think is the ultimate goal...
The EU is trying their damdest to make the death (or huge restructure) of the Euro a Whimper and not a Bang
Does nationalization = wipe out of the common? If so i'd think in a sane world we would see people trip over themselves to get out of socgen and bnp
Bloody monday :)
Suckers who still own it deserve what's comming to them
Where will the Euro open? Socializing the losses is net bullish.
I love the smell of CDS burning in the morning! It smells like........Armageddon!
Now watch by tomorrow morning all the focus will somehow be back on Greece, and this Dexia emergency will all be suddenly forgotten again.
Ireland just proposed a haircut on their debt.
BTFD is becoming a true religion.
Well no doubt thats what they hope people will do. No sale here though.
Not if you bought Dexia or Anglo Irish Bank. Or Allied Irish Bank ........... Or Bank of Ireland ............Or Irish Life and Permanent.
And here's a small blast (a puff?) from the past. (It is originally from ZH all right.)
HaHa,
From the idiot Robot itself.
Belgium buys Dexia for $4 billion. France and Lux provide the recap funds. They sell DMA & Dexia becomes another zombie.
Every Euro leader meeting appears more and more to be a glue huffing session. When asked if they accomplished what they were after the only response is a dazed, "oh, yeah, we um, we totally did what we were supposed to do, um, what were we supposed to do again?" The only question left is how many times Mr. Market is going to pick up their glue soaked rag before finally stroking out.
This is just another episode of 'scare you out wear you out'...Another footnote in the ongoing collapse of the EU...Hell as far as we know, Gold will be down $50 and the S&P will be up 27
Who's got two thumbs and BTFD? (Points to self) This guy!
yep and yep. deleveraging is BAD for gold. and moral hazard is good for stocks
really smelling like this dexia deal is going to fall apart.
Its all BS theyre just trying to figure out how to string the words together convincingly enough to make people believe its not a total disaster.
You see SheepDog.... BS is The New Normal!
Spin, Spin, Spin the Black Circle
So When does someone create a Bad Country Good country. Or a good World bad World
Theyre working on a way to spin off a bad planet.
Beware the goatee's .
". . . the talks are private."
And yet they use people's money to bailout this bankster.
19h45 Le groupe perdra son aile française, DMA, rachetée par l’État français pour un prix de 650 à 700 millions. La Caisse des dépôts et consignation rechignerait cependant toujours face à un tel prix. Le reste du groupe Dexia devient donc une banque résiduelle ou bad bank. Ses besoins de liquidité, estimés à 90 milliards, seront garantis par la Belgique, la France et le Luxembourg selon la clé de répartition suivante : 60/36,5/3,5. La band bank devra payer des primes sur ces garanties. L’État belge estime donc qu’il reste dans les lignes de son objectif de négociation, à savoir ne pas débourser plus de 1% du PIB (3,6 milliards) pour l’achat de DBB.
7:45 p.m. The group will lose its French wing, DMA, bought by the French State for €650 to 700 million. The Caisse des dépôts et consignations [a sort of government-run merchant bank, I think] will grumble about the price. The rest of the Dexia group therefore becomes a residual bank or bad bank. Its liquidity needs, estimated at 90 billion, will be guaranteed by Belgium, France and Luxembourg, according to the following scale: 60 / 36.5 / 3.5. The bad bank will pay premiums on these guarantees. The Belgian Government considers that it is within the scope of its negotiating objective, which means not spending more than 1% of GDP (3.6 billion) for the purchase of DBB.
http://www.lecho.be/
20h55 Il nous revient que le conseil d'administration peinerait à parvenir à un accord.
8[?7]:55pm We have heard that the board struggled to reach an agreement.
21h17 Selon un tweet, le conseil des ministres aurait été reporté à 23h. Mais même cette heure-là serait encore un peu trop optimiste...
21h10 Le montant des garanties représenterait pour la Belgique 15% du PIB, pour la France 2%...
9:17 p.m. According to a tweet, the Cabinet was postponed until 11pm. But even that time sounds a little too optimistic ...9:10 p.m. The guarantees represent 15% of GDP for Belgium and 2% for France...
So nothing has actually been agreed as yet?
11pm?
Close to Asia opening ............
So that's Belgium providing a guarantee for 60% of the liquidity needs.
Then the ECB issues "money" based on that guarantee?
Have I got that right?
I just took the red pill about a year ago and found ZH only a few months ago. Would y'all please give me your opinions on how bad this is going to get? Like, is the grid going to go down and stay down or what?
I think we need another red pill, this one's starting to wear off...Tolerance is a bitch
I need a blue trapazoidal pill. The smell of impending napalm is geting me all frisky.
yah, i should have taken Xanax instead
Try the suppository.
Who knows, best to prepare both ways. I want to cash in my collection of gold coins when I retire in 25 years, but I wouldn't have a collection of gold coins if I thought everything was going to be fine.
shit like this happens monthly. we have been on the verge of armageddon since 2007.
humanity is always on the verge of destruction, dude.
The reality is that no one really knows what might happen when one bank (or country) fails at this point. Everything is so interconnected, as was learned in 2008 when Lehman was left to fail.
Now TPTB are dreading what they don't know and can't predict. Because no matter how well they quarantine the mess, it's unclear if that would be good enough.
However, the one area I find telling is that no bank is willing to take a haircut on any debt in this whole mess. They are fighting like mad not to take a loss. A little research on their leverage and mark-to-unicorn accounting will tell you all you need to know: they can't do it or they'll risk being washed down the drain.
Time will tell.
"I just took the red pill about a year ago and found ZH only a few months ago. Would y'all please give me your opinions on how bad this is going to get? "
Nobody here has a crystal ball. However, most here (except a few trolls) are pretty good at digging for the truth about where we have been and where we are now. Its a start. The future? I think most will agree it doesn't look great, but anyone who tells you they know exactly how events far into the future will unfold is someone you should be suspicious of, IMO.
Like really motherfucking bad. Badder than anything you've ever experienced in your life. Badder than the Great Depression. Badder than a bad fucking nightmare. Bad as bad can be. And as it gets badder than anybody thought it would and the minions begin to get rowdy, there will be official (but not admitted to) distractions of magnitudes that the conspiracy theories about 9/11, Dag Hammarskjold, chemtrails, HAARP, radiation, the hole to the middle of the hollow earth in the Nazi base filled with aliens in Antarctica will be minor coloring book shit for your kids.
Thousands, nay millions will die from conflict (more, just like happening world wide at this very moment in case you've not noticed) starvation, epidemics released by governments.... Those in charge will go to any lengths to retain their New Versailles Rewards Points.
Not to mention housing, services, and markets collapsing, martial law...
It is gonna get real unimaginably fucking bad.
That help at all?
yup, happy pills (and gold) are looking better and better. thx
[Like, is the grid going to go down and stay down or what?]---end da fed
Hi end da fed. Welcome.
Long term Grid down on news Dexia? No. Periods of "Grid down" fall into the VERY bad category. Loss of civil and military authority fall into the VERY VERY bad category. We're a ways away from that, if ever.
Even if Dexia causes a global domino effect, fixes and patches and promises and rumors and secret bailouts will go on for months. Instead keep an eye on the price of gold, watch public confidence errode, and watch for banks eatting banks.
However, yes, your window of opportunity to purchase preps at low prices and availability is closing.
US civil war is far more likely than a long-term grid down event.
cool, i'd hate to lose my air conditioning. no really, i appreciate everyone's input. this website is one of the few places i find others discussing reality
No bond market tomorrow but everything else trades, is that right ?
There is a 100Billion Euro hole in Dexia... neither the French Govt or the Belgium govt want to face this... bankruptcy seems like a better option
No it's not. They are a very large derivative player in the world.
That's nothing. In 2008, when the British government bailed out RBS and some other large British banks, it bought equity stakes for £76bn and guaranteed liquidity of around £490bn. Turned out, so far, to be quite a good deal for the British taxpayers: the banks equity rose in some cases, and the liquidity guarantees weren't really called upon.
But, I'm afraid it may not turn out so well for Belgium. Problem is, the liquidity guarantee here may be called upon, and result in actual losses, because this is a solvency crisis not a liquidity crisis. It seems a dumb-as-fuck idea to be guaranteeing a "bad bank" which the government does not also own: that is a downside only transaction.
Belgian GDP is around 350 billion euros. If they end up losing, let's say, one third of the amount covered by the liquidity guarantee, that would correspond to an across-the-board tax hike of 5%.
It happened in Ireland with Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society (a mutual lender).
The state is on the hook for €47bn including interest.
GNP is about €125bn.
Smart or what ............ ;)
That's why you never be a politician.
Politicians say - everything is possible! Raising taxes is small price for saving whatever needs to be saved today.
With 50% on wages and 21% on goods, a extra 5% isn't a option.
The only way they stop keeping us in this vague enviroment is to dump everything. Market needs details.
Not some smoke and mirrors. bunch of suckers. Is about time that both resign.
You know, somehow, the US is really paying for this.
Some smart observers argue the biggest trade of the century is to short China.
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2011/10/8_Jim_Rickards_-_Whos_the_Sucker_at_the_Global_Gold_Poker_Table.html
http://marcfaberblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/real-threat-to-global-markets-is-china.html
Should I add more names to come with a groupthink?
Good Bank...Bad Bank routine?
Max Bank in Denmark blew up today: http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2011/10/09/001757.htm and http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Penge/2011/10/09/125929.htm
Lots of questions:
This is one smudgy, soot-coated window covering this thing.
Lots of questions:
This is one smudgy, soot-coated window covering this thing.
Shouldn't spread by nature of the guarantee of the bad debt, in the bad bank, by the bad countries.
[meh]
IMF’s Borges Says Situation With Dexia Is a ‘Special Case’
October 05, 2011, 8:33 AM EDT
Sorry about my spend thrift behavior. Can you give me another mulligan?
Wow, these people must think they are all Jedi. Just say it's ok and wave their hands, and we will all go along our merry way. I'm getting more and more disenchanted with society by the second.
these aren't the 'droids you are looking for...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnjaUoR15dU
And which banks are most exposed to Belgium? http://bit.ly/oyZZtk
BNP @ €25bn.
Ouch.
I like this bit ........
KBC has chosen to classify almost €6 billion of this in the trading book or under the AFS fair-value option allowed by SFAS 159, meaning that unrealized gains or losses (and we’d expect more losses than gains at this point) will hit earnings.
good info, thx for posting..
Just having fun this afternoon..
Luxembourg Financial Holding Company (SOPARFI)
A SOPARFI is a Luxembourg company. Thanks to its flexibility, it can offer a very broad range of activities.
To find out more (link to a .pdf brochure of one page, which was drafted by Dexia BIL and Experta)
Specialised Investment Funds (SIF)
Reserved for well-informed investors, the SIF is an investment vehicle that is subject to the approval of the CSSF (Luxembourg’s financial supervisory authority). It benefits from an attractive tax regime and an innovative regulatory context.
To find out more (link to a .pdf brochure of one page, which was drafted by Dexia BIL and Experta)
Luxembourg Investment Company in Risk Capital (SICAR)
Intended for well-informed investors, the Luxembourg Investment Company in Risk Capital is an investment vehicle governed by the CSSF (Luxembourg’s financial supervisory authority). It supports venture capital and private equity investments in a broad sense.
Luxembourg Family Wealth Management Company ? (SPF)
An SPF allows you to benefit from a special tax regime under certain conditions. It allows individuals to gather their assets within a single entity. This investment vehicle was introduced as an alternative to holding companies (Since the October Crash) in 1929.
https://www.dexia-bil.lu/en/private/life-cycle/financial-planning/Pages/companies-fis-sicar.aspx
Oh Nooooooooooo. Looks like the SIV(special investment vehicle) tranches cannot be paid off.
Dexia has no exposure on conduits or SIV
Conduits and SIVs - Chapter 1
LOL
The last bit of humor for tonight. . Start at 4.00m.
Those pesky SIV's are once again being summoned to paint a delusional falsehood in kicking a rusty can of peas down the road.
John Bird and John Fortune (the Long Johns) brilliantly, and accurately, describing the mindset of the investment banking community in this satirical interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC31Oudc5Bg&feature=related
Always worth another look.
And from Feb 2008.
Should be compulsory viewing for the general public every day.
And no doubt the 'market' will look at the hopium promises and ignore the reality of Slovakia saying NO!
S&P futures thru India -.09%
2 mins later +.06%
The guy who buy the future must be working for Credit Suiss and does't have any proper protection. He will be discovered by the bank very soon and will go to jail.
Cluster Fuck Bitchez!
http://youtu.be/nZghuBzBVDg
Euro is happy with the muck being offloaded to the people!
As the shell game continues, it's hard to believe these con artists are not already swinging from lamp posts. It's like being at the carnival when I was a kid.
Look...a little reality check...
TPTB cannot allow this to get out of control... or at least the appearance of under control.
So, equities get ramped up.
Gold and silver get tanked.
Another Manufactured Monday.
In fact betcha that there is a shitstorm pounding of Gold and Silver in the Wee No Liquidity Hours of Early Asia today.
Betcha betcha betcha..
Why the fuck am i saying betcha? I already own a piss-load...
Well, kinda mixed knuckles, I would have to disagree with you for now. Just my opinion, but they will just let the games continue without a hiccup. It dosen't cost them anything real time cause it's not based on gold or anything for that matter, Monopoly. So.. their just setting the timing of the collapse not nessesarily trying to stop it.
I believe PM's with ratchet up short turm, but eventually, TPTB will be placing the value on the metals ultimately. I am a seller in 2 weeks and will enjoy my FRN's or whatever the strongest prevailing currency is at the time. Sux, but I feel they will pull the carpet on PM's so I will take the side door. Just keep in mind, they want to leave you broke and dependant and the picture comes pretty clear at that point.
Very rough calculation?
1948659834 billion shares outstanding in Dexia as of 6/30/11 divided by €4 billion buy price = €2.05 per share buy price
€2.05 per share vs €.85 Dexia price (last trade) = 141% premium
Sounds rich.
Thats the price for the good bank. The bad bank owes much more than that.
Check your math. I get .48 Euro using your numbers
sorry for my ignorance.. when is the CDS "credit event" registered/triggered in the case of Dexia??? as a rule, is there an outside agency that determines this??
ISDA.org
thanks.. so i take it isda.org has to make an announcement before a credit event is 'official' and the cds is triggered.. thx. i wonder how timely they are.. seems like they have to put a panel together to make it 'official'..
Perhaps I'm just uninformed, but what exactly does creating a "bad bank" actually accomplish? I mean the bad debt is still there, it still exists right?
They are doing anything not to have someone or anyone in the Western banking system to go into default.
I need some " Dan Ackroid" !
The directors of Dexia met in the Dexia Tower, on the 33rd floor ...
in 1930s they at least chosed one to jump out of the window...
Belgium's finance minister Mr. Reynders must have thought, if we're going to approve of the new EU bail out fund, might as well take advantage of it... cause Belgium was pretty broke to start off with.
With a bit of bad luck Belgium's national debt will jump from 100% to 120% to GDP. (€350 + €70) This would mean Belgium takes over from Italy as the second most indebted country in Europe, after Grrrreece. Not bad for a semi-North European country.
Well done! Thank you very much for professional templates and community edition sesli chat sesli sohbet