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Latest Rumor: Greece To Hold Referendum On EUR Membership, i.e. Much Hated Austerity
While we have heard rumors of a possible Greek referendum vis-a-vis IMF bailouts (i.e., Euro membership) in the past (as long ago as April 2010, or before the first Greek bailout, when life was actually acceptable and the retirement age was in the 50s) we have promptly dismissed such rumors: after all the EU/IMF/Troica/Status QuoTM what have you would never leave the fate of its existence in such a democratic construct as a majority vote, especially with what would be a near unanimous vote to secede. Well, it may be time to start taking these rumors seriously. Actually no, never mind.
Kathimerini reports: "As pressure from Greece’s foreign creditors and austerity-weary citizens mounts on the government, Prime Minister George Papandreou is considering calling for a referendum on whether Greece should continue to tackle its debt crisis within the eurozone or by exiting the single currency." Obviously, this is nothing but yet another political ploy. The probability of a referendum proposal actually passing and democracy reestablishing itslef in the so called cradle of democracy are sllim to nil, especially with hundreds of trillions at stake. But we'll play along with it for the time being.
Kathimerini with more on this latest idiocy:
According to sources, Papandreou hopes that the outcome of such a vote would constitute a fresh mandate for his Socialist government to continue with an austerity drive backed by Greece’s international lenders -- the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
A bill submitted in Parliament, paving the way for a referendum to be carried out, is to be discussed in coming days.
Sources told Kathimerini that many of Papandreou’s close aides had proposed the idea of a referendum to the premier earlier this summer. Since then, pressure has mounted on the government from all sides with Greece’s foreign creditors pushing for quicker and more effective reforms, citizens reacting to the cuts and even members of PASOK’s political council objecting to plans to slash the public sector.
During an emergency cabinet meeting on Sunday, several ministers are said to have pressed for drastic action, with some of them calling for early elections.
We pretty much stopped at "fresh mandate" for G-Pap.
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A referendum on austerity? That's the economic equivalent of handing out condoms to 5 year olds.
I agree.
I can see it now;
Political puppets; "Do you want austerity measures to be enacted?"
Sheeple; "NO! Pass the Ouzo!"
Let them default and let the Greeks deal with one another. Their massive shipping fleet is screwed until world consumption picks up again anyway, so let the Greeks solve the Greek problem. It will be good for all. Junk away sheep, cause I like mutton!
Why would anyone junk you? Your advice is sound and shouldn't be disputed.
They should have a bake sale.
The election' will be fixed anyway. Who cares, they are still not gonna pay back anything
They can afford elections??
How is this possible? Do the Greek people have no consideration for French and German banks?
Well sort of. The debts which are fraudulent should be canceled. Not just in Greece, but worldwide. Here in America, that's the vast majority of our 'national debt'.
The difference might seem like semantics, but it's a bit like allowing oneself to blame themselves for rape, as opposed to arresting the perpetrator that did the rape.
In one, it's YOUR fault, supposedly, in the other it's THEIR fault.
There is a big difference.
If the debts of the world are defaulted upon, it appears that the people didn't pay their rightful bills.
If the debts of the world are canceled as the fraud that they are, it shows the people were a victim of a crime.
Which is better going forward? The answer is clear.
Glass-Steagall the fraud. Worldwide.
So is it sound advice to default? Not really. It's not far from the truth, but that difference is oh but a doozy.
It's not the people's fault they were a victim of a crime. But default blames the rape victim.
Glass-Steagall
As Talleyrand did not say, "This is worse than idiotic, it's unconstitutional"
Someone is sure to make a case in Court that such a referendum is within the ambit of Greece's constitutional prohibition of matters financial, fiscal or monetary policy -related being put to direct vote. G-Pap is just blowing smoke.
What do you think this is? California?
Is there a referendum for Greece staying in the EU? Let the Greeks vote on it. Shit the EU did not let Ireland vote on it. They had to vote twice because they did not get it right the first time. The EU Stalinesque fascists in Brussells made the Irish vote until they got it right. Didn't the EU do the same thing to Holland?
cue riots in 3... 2... 1...
Apparently theyve looked at every possible scenario, and settled on molotov cocktail riots and burning parliament buildings are the best route to take.
Default -> exit Euro -> inflation -> riots
No default -> austerity -> riots
Why not put it to a vote? Let them choose their own misery. Maybe they will be less inclined to protest the consequences if they think they made the decision.
Or, maybe since default is inevitable they're putting on the democracy show to maintain respectability.
LOL! The country that created Democracy too. Let em vote. I agree.
The EU made Ireland "vote" until they got it right.
Good.
Let's get this default on the road!
The September tranche will be paid, politicians need more time to prepare their (anyway insolvent) banks. Greece's default will happen in December at the next tranche. In the meantime, ECB will be the only buyer of PIIGS debt since both the EFSF and the ESM will NEVER be loaded with money (although TIMMAAAHHHHH thinks differently). Within the EU-commission there are soooo many utterly frustrated/irritated people that it is impossible something good will come out of it. Only when (not if) bigger countries like Italy/Spain/France will be at the brink of collapse, the political pressure will be there to start seriously discussing Eurobonds + fiscal unity.
Right it will happen in December, of course by December there will be many other reasons why the can will have to get kicked yet again Im sure. Whatever, place yer bets on the loaded wheel.
If so, then Greece defaults. Markets will anticipate this of course.
This way, At least the politicians can blame the default and the exit of the Euro (which will lead to economic chaos in Europe) on the greek people.
I don't care who they blame it on, as long they get it done; it's inevitable. The "Payers" in the system can't send Greece their monthly welfare check anymore; it's impossible.
great point unky
i think this whole thing ( revolutions,regime changes) around the MENA is just a ploy by the globalist to resolidify TPTB's power on these poor people.and thier resources.
i would exspect more of these 'revolutions' to expand to south america and then go north. just too much 'support' for the rebels from europe and N,A, on these resource rich nations.
nothing ever happens positive for the little guys in these armed revolutions.
just a different fox in the henhouse,
all just get co-op'ed by the rich, these movements.
even here...
Nice negotiating ploy.
Won't happen.
If it were confirmed the €8bn would have to be put on hold until the result was known.
For the love of Hermes, just default already!
Ever since Brown talked about TEOTW in Europe, I've started considering this might be the turn around point. We may be surprised by this, or, maybe not.
and in other news, the sun will set tonight, and rise tomorrow morning.......and then set again...and then rise......
Aren't you worried about being wrong one of these days?
my statement is NOT a prediction, its representative of my frustration that this never seems to boil over. my stored food is getting spoiled and i think i detected some rust on my gold coins.......
Oh, you bought those Chinese counterfeits, did you?
those chinese panda were sooo nice.....
You have to make the stored food part of your regular diet. Cycle out the old, restock with the new.
The tools in their box (tptb) are legion. They have known of systemic weaknesses and tipping points for quite some time, this is going to take a while and we will not be allowed a reset unless and until we demand it. That demand will take different forms in different places. What form it will take in your locale who knows, in the U.S., it will need to be widespread and unfortunately for us very insistent.
Currently the only way a country can leave the union is to ask to leave. They can't be forced. Perhaps someone is pushing a gun in Papandreou's back and whispering in his ear.
Yes, and actually currently there is also a no-bailout-clause in the agreement between € member states and they also give a fuck about it. The laws will be changed as needed (by creating exceptions).
hey long john, whats your current take on silver?
I don't know if he has to be forced, isn't he and his brother load up on cds ? This is just a way for himself and the ECB leaders to save face by claiming it's what the Greek people wanted
Secede from a union? Unpossible!
Maybe the colonel's junta is waiting in the wings as in 1967...
Greece default will not happen. Because there's too much at stake. They will get the money, Germany will vote in favor of EFSF and the July 21 agreement, like all other europarliaments. The next tranche for October will be paid soon and in a few weeks the eurocrisis-ritual will be over for a few months. Then a rehearsal, but again no Armageddon. Merry Christmas.
Wrong. This tranche will be paid to buy time but the EFSF won't be approved. Greece will default in December (you can and should bet on it).
don't bother. That guy's just a prototype algo with an AI component. The engineers are using ZH as a test environment.
Fuck, does anyone else find this fucktard's "Boring world we live in" incessant trolling annoying, or is it just me?
Yea, this troll and the other one 'No armageddon today!' ....well their moms could have made wiser abortion choices lets just say.
If you find trolls annoying, you should learn to ignore them, as it's your response that amuses them.
Otherwise, learn to sit back and enjoy their craft (the better ones, that is, as they work on perfecting the concept of reductio ad absurdum while promoting the beliefs of others).
Greece default now sounds like "Comex crash": never happens, no matter how the game changes.
Yea right LookingWithAmazement, the bankrupt Western World is simply 'Too Big To Fail'...uh huh. Oh and because it hasnt announced failure yet, thats proof it will not. Oh ok.
Indeed, look at Japan. No collapse and a national debt going through the roof. Japan still exists. Even that Fukushima-thing is over. Yaaaaaaaaaaaawn.
Yep, that Fukushima-thing is completely over for all the thousands of Japanese with radioactive exposure.
Well, over until all those diseases and mutations start showing up starting . . . . right . . . about . . .
The Fukushima disaster is far from over. It's just that the media stopped reporting it. (Yeah you really though that building this big tent over the reactor would cure the problem? Guess what, they are only building it to spread the radiation further away from the plant to make their command post a bit safer. Meanwhile, the corium is slowly falling into the ground)
'The western world will not cave in on its own insurmountable debt....because theres too much at stake'....lol yea sure.
And the Germans would not surrender at Stalingrad. Too much at stake.
Socialist austerity drive - pretty much sums it up.
Will bankruptcy come to a vote?
Will Greeks join the Icelandic boat?
Will tyranny cease?
Enslavement decrease?
Will G-Pap have sex with a goat?
Well done Limerick King!
Thanks Al.
no.
no.
no.
no.
yes.
I was hoping someone would answer these questions....well done!
Nice.
There was a young farter from Sparta.
He was an incomparable fart-a.
He could roar from his ass, in b minor mass,
to Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.
"When it blows up... You make it sound as pretty as possible"
.
But they better have a conference call first..or two.....actually the Greeks just want an extra 8 billion Euros before they default...its called theft where I come from....stealing...
History shows that soveign defaults are negotiated for years after a payment is missed. This won't end with a simple missed bond payment. Banks won't write down the debt any significant amount. The negotiations and charade will play on for a long, long time.
Italy is what will bring down the banks. When Italian bonds are thrown overboard the shit will finally hit the fan.
the swirling motion seems to have begun.
Previously undisclosed G Pap Sarko meeting images
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AzpHvLWFUM&feature=related
No way for a referendum breaking this friendship
Timmay the midget will fly over there and give them the right advice!
TOGA, TOGA, TOGA, TOGA !
Early elections? What are they thinking? Get a different group of people to tell the public the same bad news? yeah that will work.
EUR/USD dips below 1.37 = release fresh batch of rumors to push it higher.
fuckin pitiful
We're gonna need a bigger carrot...
I call bullshit. No way they would risk that. What if the people say no and decide for an immediate default? No way the establishment would risk that.
Would this pass? I seem to recall from 2010 there were opinion poll results suggesting that most of the Greek population was largely behind the privatisations and other aspects of the government program. Is that still the case?
The 300 in Parliament are behind the privatisations, the other few hundred thousand protesting in the streets not so much.
The polling places in Greece don't use Diebold voting machines, do they?
Distraction. They're only interested in the pretense of democracy and self determination to quell the riots.
Shouldn't they try to squeeze a few more Euros out of the Germans and then vote to leave?
GO Icelandic on their ass!
Votes to be tabulated by Diebold
is your mandate lacking that fresh feeling?
did your last g-pap come up a little short?
with just 10-12 weekend applications of referendum, you could be back to your balanced self again
Yes, yes, by all means let the people decide.
Just know that it will take time to get the referendum to the people. And then you gotta pick a date for the big vote! Oh my, this will take at least a year...
In the meantime, can someone please give Greece a few more Euro's?
They can use the money to buy some of those dimpled-chad Votomatic machines from Florida. That will give them even more time to stall as they count and recount the votes for another year.
This is a wonderful plan!
Greeks to vote on future in Euro Zone? -->eKathimerini News
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_19/09/2011_407137
Ah, but where is the squid in all this? Look for tenticle marks!
Um, the top Squid is retaining criminal defense lawyers.
You were just on a roll today sir.
Pretty much everybody here in Europe realizes that we'll get a serious crisis because of those bastards.
And I don't mean the greeks. I mean the greek politicians and bankers.
Looks like it won't be a bad idea to also keep some cash on supply at home before the bank holidays.
G-Pap is the meat in the rock-and-a-hard-place sandwich.... tick/tock, tick/tock, tick/tock...
No one should forget that the French (and the Irish) voted against the European constitution but since the President didn't like the outcome of the referendum, he dismissed it and adopted the constitution anyway. It was not in Venezuela or in Iran, it was in France. The president of France didn't like the outcome of a free democratic election and decided to bypass it. That's the same president who bombed Libya just months after hosting Gaddafi (and Syria's El Assad) as his best buddies.
For those who think that austerity in Greece just means people work past the age of 50, here's an article that compares, in terms of percent, what similar cuts would mean if enacted in the US (and these are just the cuts after the 1st memorandum, not all the subsequent cuts agreed to in the summer and the ones coming now):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/17/greece-ba...
There is no way that the PM will give a referendum to the Greek people. Neither he nor his party will call for early elections unless absolutely forced to. People may not understand that G-Pap, having been born in the US and being half American, does not have great loyalty to Greece. He seems to favor a united states of Europe. Good for him, but he should not have been Prime Minister of Greece, and the people made a huge mistake electing him. So his interest is the good of Europe, not Greece, and also he and his party want desperately to hold on to power. They have no respect for the Greek people.
I've commented on this before, but I am still hopeful that the allegations of the artificially inflated 2009 deficit prove true and that this government is brought down. By the way, the head of the Greek statistics agency (bureau?) under G-Pap worked for the IMF for part of the time he was head of the agency, and specifically when the alleged cooking of the deficit numbers upward occurred.
Greece is just the first domino in the line, the truth is EVERY country is in the same boat and that boat is leaking.
Give free money to every greek to buy the new Iphone, problem solved.
I've been saying for some time now . . . two scenarios:
Either Greece defaults and has blood in the streets . . . politician and elite banker blood . . . in which case Italy and the rest will NOT default and will find some way to get money.
Or.
Greece defaults and it's no big deal. It's not even called a default. Other money sources show up to very narrowly and strictly feed the people. When this happens, Italy and the rest follow suit within a week. If there is no penalty for spending someone else's money, you are irresponsible not to do it for your people.
The way I see it a Greek referendum would be an out for the Greek government. If the results are for staying in the EU ZOne, then many in the country will think the result was rigged. There will be massive protest. If the result is for leaving the EU zone, it's an automatic default, and there will be hell to pay assuming the Greek governments does same as Fench president, and bypasses the will of the people.
I have a sense that the Greek government feels stuck at the moment, and a referendum will buy them time (or so they think), and the other EU countries will focus on something else. Any way this situation is looked at, it is the beginning of the end of the Euro. It may take a week, may take a year, but it seems to me, unless there is a plebesite, there will be a default. The Greek Government is simply not able at the moment to meet is responsibilities.
If there is no default this week, then there will be a referendum in the next 6 months. I don't see any other alternatives.
LOL! Let's have a referendum on ending Social Security and Medicare. What a moronic idea.
Cramer says it's all baked in. Greece is well capitalized. Buy buy buy buy............
I think I found a video that is an analogy to Greece.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEuJ3dLLYco&feature=aso
(Watch to the end .. it's worth it.)
I can certainly understand why Greece would consider defaulting on its debts. Greece is in way over its head and is a natural candidate for bankruptcy.
But I don't understand why Greece would consider abandoning the Euro. If they hold a referendum and polls show any possibility of Greece dropping the Euro, it could trigger the "Mother of All Bank Runs" as all Greeks rush to withdraw every Euro from their bank accounts. Even discussing the possibility is dangerous. In fact, I don't really understand why this run hasn't already happened. If I were a Greek, I would certainly not keep any excess money in a Greek bank.
Greece should keep the Euro and just discard their debts. As the experience in Argentina shows, there is life after default.
Greeks already have most of their money in Swiss or other foreign bank accounts as their balances would be difficult to reconcile with their reported taxable income.
They won't vote to leave the Euro. This is the best racket they have come up with in more then a thousand years.
Kinda ironic that the people who invented western civ are the one who are gonna bring it down. Some where Homer is crying.
I agree with this idea; let the people of Greece choose between the sword and the axe. My guess is that they will put a halt to this nonsense.
The Greeks are probably tired of carrying the economic burden of holding the Euro Union together for the last year. Many cannot understand why other countries would question their rights to sup and slurp from German, French, and Danish tables and wealth. They are probably expecting thanks to be extended to all Greeks for accepting these gifts in order to maintain the fraud of a strong and cohesive currency union.
Voting in a referendum to halt these inducements would be a great step for the Greeks to take. It will remove the huge burden that they have endured for so many years. The goat herds need more attention anyway. That will bring on a complete revial and appreciation for the simple life. They will become the model society for the rest of Europe to follow.
Greeks are dishonest scum, fucking another group of Irish travellers.
The Euro has plenty of room to fall against the USD. http://bit.ly/oYIfxA
Albania is starting to look real good...
the global media is talking all the time about Greece, just to hide the debt-issues of the United States and other countries and to put focus somewhere else. Sheep are falling for that trick........
Referendum is probably a clever phony threat floated out by G Pap to insure that the Troika forks over the money. All the players are in extend and pretend denial mode and a referendum would blow this up. G Pap don't want no stinkin' referendum, G Pap wants the stinkin' money!
Why dont they just get on with it? i want to book a nice cheap holiday to crete soon
So, I take it the Greek people cannot call for the referendum themselves. I think Iceland could, which made it the one able to say screw you to their banks when all the others bailed out their banks.
Participatory democracy is such a big part of this saga. I saw a weekend talking head on CNN talk about how Libya has quit teaching the children the Green Book in school already. That was their book about their participatory democracy. Poof, it's gone. I wonder if the talking heads will talk about how we brought democracy to Libya, when we actually took it away.
Reported that Greece is denying the referendum.
http://www.forexlive.com/blog/2011/09/20/greek-govt-denies-report-it-considering-holding-a-referendum-on-euro-memembership-spokesman/
democratic construct as a majority vote
democratic? oh please! and Irish referendum about Lisbon treaty that was held... twice was what? democratic? referendums in Europe are tools to set up stage for further political moves so sheeple get convinced there's much suport for the gov actions.
when Germans decide to kick Greece out of eurozone, G-Pap will hold a referendum so it doesn't look like they've been kicked out but leaved on their own. it's a tool to bypass flawed UE law that forgot to consider any form of leaving the imperium.