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That's $504 trillion with a T.
Is this where Osbourne's inquiry begins and ends?
<-- Sell-off today
With any bet there are always winners and losers, and with extreme outcomes there are always big winners and big losers.
The record low interest rates over a sustained period is an extreme outcome.
Could someone explain to me, in the context of interest rate swap derivatives, who the big winners and big losers are ?
Thanks in advance.
Not sure who the winners are, but the losers are easy to spot.
Just look in the mirror.
lol, well that would have been the case either way, wouldn't it ? :-D
whew. thats a biiiiigggg number.
But my mirror has "You're looking at a winner, and a handsome one at that" printed in big, bold letters on the top and bottom.
You'd best get that mirror returned to the White House, pronto.
I was just wondering where I could find one of those. Too bad.
If you can't find that mirror, http://www.whosawesome.com will work in a pinch.
Anything less than a Quadrillion doesn't concern me.
Most every figure on the left side is nearly a quadrillion, several key figures on the right are approaching same. The trend on gross market value is alarming.
Well, I've got 200 Trillion Zimbabwe right here in my wallet. Why doesn't anybody ask me for a bailout?
Oh, I don't know, 100 trillion here, 100 trillion there, pretty soon you're talkin real money.
Priced in, no worries
Priced into our ass! As in they will be fucking everyone real soon.
Will ? ... they have been screwing us for quite a while now
The banksters believe their own horse manure
uh, the Universe o_0
But dont we have a 'firewall'? Sure it may be made of gasoline soaked paper towels, but its the concept of it that counts. The media muppets tell us 'the new smart thing' is plowing cash into treasuries for the race to implosion. Happy days!
If the firewall goes out. they can just unplug it, wait for 30 seconds and plug it back in. Fixed.
Sometimes 30 seconds can be a very long time.
The firewall has been quite effective in keeping everyone inside the burning building
As someone who has had money with Vanguard, T Rowe Price, and Schwab, I fully expect that you fulfill your fiduicary responsibilities and seek demages from the banks manipulating the rate that feeds into my money market accounts I've had with you over the past 7 years. Failure to do so means that you've violated your fiduicary responsibility toward me. It's either you or them. Make a decision.
I would hope that your corporate clients feel the same way.
At this point, it looks like the corporate clients are with the program.
That's sort of a lot. Btw, does anybody happen to know whether the Barclay's Lie-bor manipulation problem could be related in any way to the JPM "whale" trade problem? ... I have no idea, but from scanning the news & blog posts, the topics seem similar.
But wait, surely news of some dumbass celeb getting a divorce or kirdashs ass got bigger will eclipse this
If you've seen that ass, you know it will.
The thing that sucks is that no individual counterparty had enough of an obvious loss on any given trade to figure out how to sue the banks properly
Banks skim a little from each transaction. Market goes up or down they win. The want to win more, so the cheat, and no one stops them.
Ring fence it with some green shoots.
Make sure you hedge those green shoots, the bears are in the woods...
Lie-Mor? Million... Billion... Trillion... Quadrillion... Gazillion... When there is no limit to the zeros it just becomes numbers right?
Yeah, remember what happened in Zimbabwe? (sp)
Not to shabby!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that like "Not to worry!" in some Irish dialect?
So you want to buy an interest rate swap?
Seems to me its time for a Reverse Split in various currencies.........
This is a global probrem and goes way beyond LIBOR fixing
Current market abuses that need investigation are co-location, HFT and algo trading, rehypothecation, insider trading, dark pools, shadow banking repo's, ETF's, money market funds, MBS, CDS's, CDO's, asset backed securities, commercial paper, securities lending and wilful manipulation of official statistics and indicators.
Unfortunately for the UK, by uncovering and investigating this abuse, the City of London will be vilified by all central bankers and regulators as corrupt and evil English villains, whilst defending the integrity of their domestic institutions.
This is going to get messy and it has only just started.
Don't forget the markets for copper, PM's, oil, property, used cars, carbon and good old frozen OJ!!!
Oh sorry, those markets are not rigged and operated by self-interested, rip-your-face-off traders... yeh, right, so if you believe that....
Seriously you can find corruption in your kid asking you for £10 pocket money and you give him £5 instead....
Shouldn't we be focusing on becoming productive again instead of trying to pull our own guts out of our assholes?
People are always talking about "how we need banks" in order for our capitalist society to function correctly.
So far the banks have sold us PPI (immorally and now illegally), they have fixed LIBOR, they are borrowing at 0.5% and lending to us at 20%, they have traded against themselves with their prop trading and cost the consumer more - they have foreclosed on properties but not resold them back to the market (maintainging prices) - valued their assets on 'fantasy' and required a multi-billion dollr bailout.
...so tell me - what the fuck have they done for us lately?
If you're not already walking up the street with a molotov to pay a visit to your local bank - then you're just another slave asshole.
Lashing out at local bank branches isn't going to do any good. If you want to use violence as a means to change, you should attack the source of the problem--the Fed. Or at least burn down Brian Sack's house (or Jamie Dihmons, or Lloyd Blankfein's).
Need more detail.
A .001% fudge factor on the interest rates of $504T is only $504 Billion Certainly the banks have earned the right to skim that much from us sock puppets right?
And it's always good to set a fine before you know the size and scope of the crime. It increases our confidence.
I think these "banks" have been given the green light to defraud the rest of us to their hearts content. And there seems to be no stopping it.
We are fortunate to have such fair-minded and compassionate overlords.
Don't y'all see. It's $500 plus trillion worth of HEDGING to protect the little guy. And besides all the counterparties are fully solvent and no-one has taken any bets that aren't dead flat either way.
I'm Maxine Waters and I approve this message.
Could someone clarify, do these funds even exist? My guess is no, so what would really happen if this were to unwind tomorrow? My guess is nothing (aside from making all my physical assets worth even more).
Unwind tomorrow freezes the financial system, like draining the oil out of your car. Everything physical looks fine but without transactions it's useless. We need a good backup system because this one is going down hard onces it starts and I don't want to waste my time trading turnips for heating oil.
I would bet it is more like $650T, given the trend with seasonal variation in that chart.
Well, if you were right then $504 Trillion would disappear off of the balance sheets of banks and hedge funds.
But I don't think you are right. Consider the recent FSA announcement of the investigation of the mis-selling of interest rate swaps to small businesses in the UK.
Certainly those swaps cost small businesses billions over the last 5 years or so, and that money was definitely real.
better define "money" first.
Well, some of those small businesses went under. So, the 'money' was tangible in their cases.
If this mildly arcane crime garners even the slightest bit of traction, this has the potential to be the Black Swan event of the decade. My question is, where are the investment mavens shouting "Fraud!" at the top of their lungs? This doesn't just affect mortgage holders (whom I would expect to be woefully ignorent). Every major bond trader, CRE investor, institution, and for that matter bank that played by the rules should be crying out for justice, but instead, I hear only crickets.
Exactly, because institutional investors are considered to be big and bad enough to understand the way rates and markets work. And they do.
Its only retail investors who have protection and where regulations would spring up to defend them but they aren't really affected - banks tell them what rate they will lend at (SVR) and after that its the customers choice to take the deal or not.
So....you cheat on the CDS shit pile; all the while you say "I cover risks for my clients, not my own naked plays". In fact to feed the HF speculative fire with ZIRP and then sell them insurance on the side. Then you cheat on the interest swaps, vie Lie-bore, a much bigger pile, saying, "I cover risks for myself and my clients, Don't look at nominal amounts, its no big deal, it doesn't feed the fire". And in fact as its all non regulated sleight of hand, manipulated by your crony club, you make huge margins by cheating all and sundry!
How can you lose? You can! by letting the wheel spin beyond control, yours and those of your cronies. Now the wheel controls you, like madness controls greed.
LOL, 504,098, not 504.098. So, what's a half quadrillion in notional between friends?
They'll just print and monetize this, don't worry
Of course it's the 504T, it couln't possibly be any of the lesser values on that sheet...always the largest.
Boy, they've really done it now. Don't these banks know they can be fined upwards of......wait for it......a hundred million dollars! for this kind of cheating? Sheesh, when will they learn that crime doesn't pay?
So if they messed with the percentages only 1 percent, the minimum damages already are 5T?
Terminal velocity is 168 mph @ sea level. 500T is overkill.
Bug, meet windshield.
We keep hearing about these trillions of derivatives but what does it mean? How do they collapse and cause a debt black hole. Help me out I'm a fucking idiot. Will the Libor rate unwind now they zone in on the fixing of it? How screwed are we cause I'm impatient for the world economy to collapse so I get rich in Gold.
A half a million? No problem! baah baah the sky is falling. oh wait
I'm going to Disneyland to see my broker. Good ole Mickey will get me through this.
Chart is wrong? Clearly specifies "In Billions of US Dollars"
I need to visualize $504 trillion dollars. How big of a armored bank car would be needed to haul away $504 trillion dollars?
Perhaps we'll have our first armored bank cruise ship soon.
This is the first I've heard about anyone unwinding anything as far as LIBOR goes. Sounded to me like they were just going to start from here with everyone properly chastized and told to sit in a corner for five minutes before continuing with business as usual.
So.... because all this went on, inflation of everything happened, including expectations of returns on investments including pensions (and everything else)...
Not good. Very very bad.
...and so on, around the world.
We're all cooked.
You'd think that anyone who purchased LIBOR based interest rate swaps as "protection" for rising interest rates should have grounds to sue if the bank selling them was part of this cartel. This appears to me to be an obvious case of price fixing and treble damages should be sought.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
if they hadn't lied, the world woulda died
no CTRL+P without representation!
no representation without taxation!
we insist, BiCheZ!
it is for your own good
send us your POMO prayer requests
welcome to america, BiCheZ!
All the banks in the world are inside the event horizon. If this isn't enough, the Nibiru of derivatives casinos seals it. What do you think one military drone per 10,0000 civilians is for?
Correct, that highlighted 504,098 figure is in billions of US dollars-- which is bad ebough-- in Table 19 as shown,
not designated in trillions..[yet]... as the submittal mentions.
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