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Man Arrested In New York Terror Plot

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Just hitting the headlines, probably related to Mike Bloomberg's 7:30 pm announcement:

  • NY AUTHORITIES ARREST MAN IN BOMBING PLOT, N.Y. TIMES REPORTS
  • MAN WANTED TO DETONATE BOMB IN BUILDING WITH GOVT WORKERS: NYT
  • NY TIMES SAYS MAN WAS ARRESTED WITHIN THE LAST 24
  • MAN HAD BEEN UNDER SURVEILLANCE FOR A YEAR, N.Y. TIMES REPORTS
  • NY AUTHORITIES TO ANNOUNCE CHARGES AGAINST MAN TONIGHT

More from the NYT:

The authorities have arrested a man who law enforcement officials believe was planning to build and detonate a bomb in New York with government workers, returning military personnel and elected officials as the target, two people briefed on the case said on Sunday. Cyrus R. Vance Jr.,  the Manhattan district attorney, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly of the New York Police Department announced the charges against the man at a Sunday evening news conference at City Hall.

 

The man was arrested within the last 24 hours.

 

The defendant in the case, identified as Jose Pimentel, 27, had bought bomb-making materials and “began to build them,” said one person briefed on the case, who added that the Police Department had had the man under surveillance for about a year. “The Police Department basically had an informant with this guy,” said a second law enforcement official familiar with the investigation. “The guy is sort of giving to the informant all of these material on bomb building and talking about building a bomb and supporting the mujahedeen by targeting — he’s kind of all over the place; sometimes it’s targeting servicemen and women returning from Afghanistan, sometimes it’s the police, sometimes its build it and test it, but it’s all over the place.”

 

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Sun, 11/20/2011 - 19:32 | 1896808 wrs
wrs's picture

bombing what? The markets?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 19:48 | 1896875 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

MF Global servers and filing cabinets.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:00 | 1896914 eureka
eureka's picture

when does the US ponzi collapse?

A) 2012

B) 2013

C) 2014

how many US citizens betw 18-65 will be without food, homes and jobs in 2013 - after US austerity cuts?

A) 50 million

B) 100 million

C) 150 million

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:04 | 1896946 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

target was a "public building"..at least it wouldn't have effected US productivity any

...maybe it was a Guy Fawkes decendent 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:17 | 1896983 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

Is this ever going to get old.. These manufactured terrorist plots have got to be about cycled out... or?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:00 | 1897108 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

The truth about OWS:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/20/occupy-wall-street-leader-reportedl...

 

 

A key Occupy Wall Street leader and another protester who leads a double life as a businessman ditched fetid tents and church basements for rooms at a luxurious hotel that promises guests can “unleash [their] inner Gordon Gekko,” The Post has learned.

The $700-per-night W Hotel Downtown last week hosted both Peter Dutro, one of a select few OWS members on the powerful finance committee, and Brad Spitzer, a California-based analyst who not only secretly took part in protests during a week-long business trip but offered shelter to protesters in his swanky platinum-card room.

“Tents are not for me,” he confessed, when confronted in the sleek black lobby of the Washington Street hotel where sources described him as a “repeat” guest.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:03 | 1897116 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

they just don't understand the anger do they?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:49 | 1897243 NewThor
NewThor's picture

What do you gentlemen think about this article?

http://news.yahoo.com/australia-probes-obama-security-slip-141257252.html

I think Obama is set up to be the biggest bagholder in history.

Those who place him in power sound ready for a change.

Somebody better call Jack Bauer. 

If something like this happened. 

I wouldn't go near a city for days.

CRAZY TIMES GET CRAZIER

God Bless Everyone

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:00 | 1897267 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

smells like mossad............perhaps a warning to the shiny black man to be nice and quit calling bibi a liar..........etc........

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:31 | 1897776 oldman
oldman's picture

Thor,

All I could think of was the moment I heard that "a passport of one of the terrorists was found on the sidewalk" after WTC

Any port in a storm seems to be the plan every time MSM wants to divert our attention-----no idea from what, though     om

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 04:42 | 1897829 NewThor
NewThor's picture

The universe carries infinite everythings. 

The greatest chess game of all time. 

There is a way to pull this plane up from its 

nose dive before it smashes into

worst case of worst case scenarios

stuxneting nukes out the domes

seas of glass that will almost always last.

New America. Let the best Blueprints rule.

awake lucidity 

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:06 | 1897130 augie
augie's picture

While i admit OWS was most certainly founded for intentions not made known to most protestors, the words "truth" and "fox news" should never be used in the same sentance unless preceded by a negative qualifier.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:17 | 1897160 GenX Investor
GenX Investor's picture

Dick Bove says to buy OWS hand over fist, undervalued?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:44 | 1897232 augie
augie's picture

undervalued as a 7% italian, aged 10 years; just the way he likes em'

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:32 | 1897334 Roger O. Thornhill
Roger O. Thornhill's picture

Absolute BS.

He had some pipe, a pipe cap, a clock and some christmas lights - but had no explosive of any kind. Seems like all hardware stores can now be raided as "bomb factories" for carrying plumbing supplies.

Either Bloomberg is trying to shift the story from the OWS thing, or he's looking for more federal funds for NYC.

I watched the report on the "device" and just laughed. I feel like I'm in a George Orwell novel. Things are getting ridiculous!

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:27 | 1897462 NewThor
NewThor's picture

Do you know who is cooler than Roger O. Thornhill?

Dexter CK Haven

 

Bloomber reporting on OWS is like FoxNews reporting on the Rupert Murdoch hacking scandal.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:45 | 1897501 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

It's always good to keep the fear flowing.  If people weren't afraid, they might think they don't need their masters.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:50 | 1897245 NewThor
NewThor's picture

The government knew the anger and riots were coming.

OWS allows them to front run the places and have proper security. 

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:42 | 1897226 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

So what?  Capitalism does that for people who actually earn money too.  Being mad at socialists and crooks has nothng to do with income.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:58 | 1897264 Outlaw Of The W...
Outlaw Of The Wasteland's picture

brad spitzer........not an Irish name is it?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:01 | 1897274 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

i would be suspicious even if it was     o'spitzer........

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:43 | 1897496 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

You don't often see the words "truth" and "Fox News" in the same sentence.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:51 | 1897514 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Certainly not the quitessential freeloading unemployed smelly flea infested hippy commie anarchist I was led to believe is running rampant on the streets of lower Manhattan.

The funny thing is Fox don't even realize how stupid they look by trying to make something out of this.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:24 | 1897580 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Yep.  I'm sure the cops gave him the idea.  Gave him the target. Gave him the bomb (fake?).  Now they can justify more surveilance on the people, and the sheeple will think it's for their own good.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:05 | 1897715 r00t61
r00t61's picture

I'll bet it turns out that this terror plot guy was:

1. Born in Iran

2. Osama bin Laden's dog walker

3. A Muslim theology major in college

4. Single-handedly responsible for sinking the USS Maine in 1898;

and whatever other interesting bits the CIA can come up with.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 10:06 | 1898145 Archduke
Archduke's picture

[the organisation, money, weapons came from the FBI]

 

don't you wish you could spirit a nice ranch out of this?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:37 | 1897038 Michael
Michael's picture

Is this incident supposed to continue making me feel sorry for NY so we keep giving them money? AS a carrier machinist with 30 years experience, I'm the victim of the system.  

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:41 | 1897048 Carlyle Groupie
Carlyle Groupie's picture

"Cooperative pacifist species, are killed to extinction."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnpEI3njoeo

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:52 | 1897083 Triggernometry
Triggernometry's picture

I hope it doesn'y turn out to be an FBI informant/asset/patsy.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:52 | 1897249 NewThor
NewThor's picture

They will probably pull a OWS 'member' terrorist plot foiled! story soon.

The media hit on OWS has been focused and brutal.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 10:58 | 1898374 Chrome Child
Chrome Child's picture

They already have. The loony tune that shot at the white house last week has already been 'tied-in' with OWS protesters via FAUX News.

http://thinkprogress.org/media/2011/11/18/372290/fox-news-occupy-shooter/

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:03 | 1897276 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

a machinist huh?  you have skills that will be useful to the resistance..........

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:06 | 1897277 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

.......

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:41 | 1897050 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

It is a true story....here is the picture of the suspect in action

 

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_mar2008/GayTerrorist.htm

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:32 | 1897775 Element
Element's picture

 

 Is this ever going to get old.. These manufactured terrorist plots have got to be about cycled out... or?

 

nah it's like WWE 'wrestling' on the box, no matter how lame or impossible to suspend disbelief  ... it NEVER gets old

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:22 | 1897170 eureka
eureka's picture

"target was a "public building"..at least it wouldn't have effected US productivity any"...

... well, since US "productivity" arises mainly from FED printing a.k.a. "financial services" any terror act might actually increase said "productivity" ...

in the other hand, looking at real productivity, such "considerations" are entirely irrelevant; US real and taxable productivity expands at one quarter the rate of US debt

happy thanksgiving US'ians - it will be one of your last - as a serfs of the current Federation a.k.a. "union"...

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 09:26 | 1898005 optimator
optimator's picture

The target was Fort Baxter in Roseville Kansas.  Lots of details, Col. Hall, camp commander will be holding a press conference.  Seems the motor pool was the target.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:07 | 1896959 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

This fascination for collapse is mind boggling!  What will change that will "collapse" the system?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:23 | 1896994 Arthor Bearing
Arthor Bearing's picture

Well, first of all, read some Nassim N. Taleb. Things that could change to collapse the system: deleveraging deflationary debt spiral, hyperinflation, real oil price triples, liquidity crunch takes out financial system like in 2008, except with no bailout to end it. And that's just off the top of my head, those are "known unknowns." Nobody knows what kind of unknown unknowns there are, like a solar electrcal storm that shuts down power grids or something.

We live in a fragile world (recklessly fast changes based on technological growth + massive debt will do that) so any significant disruption has the potential to send the entire house of cards crashing down.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:55 | 1897031 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Wow.  You just quoted Donald Rumsfeld.  The only way you could have sounded better is if you had quoted Donald Trump.

Technological growth is a great thing.  It increases productiveity.  When productivity increases, supply can increase.  Price will eventually find equalibrium.

The debt will increase spending, and decreased spending is the main problem, right?

Hyperinflation will not happen to the reserve currency.  The market for dollars and bonds is too large for that to happen.  An increase in just a trillion dollars is nothing compared to the quadrillion of dollars that are in existence.  A trillion dollars of spending is a drop in the bucket, which is why Obama should buckle up and just do it.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:49 | 1897213 Vagabond
Vagabond's picture

I notice you didn't mention the energy problem.  Also, "The debt will increase spending".  What world are you from?  You mean new debt?  So your plan is more new debt so we can live high on the horse for a few more years while spending money we don't have?  And then we'll owe that plus interest.  Great plan genius.  Infinite growth is impossible Mr. Krugman, and the only possible way a debt based currency can exist forever is if there is infinite growth.  We don't have infinite growth and we unfortunately have come to the point where growth is stagnating.  The system has been flawed from the get go, and you are advocating my generation continue to take the shit storm for your generation's comfort.  Some of you boomers still can't seem to realize that the growth you experienced during your lives is not normal, and not sustainable.   This system will come to an end, and your neivity is what is truly mind boggling.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:53 | 1897250 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Technology increases, and productivity increases.  The only thing creating an energy crisis is not advancing technology.  So we need to continue to fund this, which means we need to fund technology and thus we create growth.

The only thing holding back growth is asinine policy that will stimy it.  This why "austerity" is ridiculous.  We need to fund our projects.  Not doing so is Draconian, and we all no what happens then.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:01 | 1897272 Vagabond
Vagabond's picture

Have you looked at the EROI on oil?  I'm pretty sure technology has come a long way in the last 100 years.  Why has the EROI fallen so dramatically?  Are we ready to start building nuclear facilities all over the place?  It doesn't look like it.  Where's the energy coming from in 20 years?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:06 | 1897289 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

The EROEI is lower because we have increased our ability to extract it, obviously.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:40 | 1897216 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Hyperinflation will not happen to the reserve currency? Right, sure we are somehow different. Textbook stupidity.

The market is the Federal Reserve right now and they are monetizing our debt as we speak. How long can that go on? Indefinately according to you. Why work then. Hell lets just all print our pay checks. The US Federal Reserve holds the most in dollar terms of US treasuries right now compared to even China. That is monetizing debt at a rate I have not seen in my lifetime. Hyperinflation is coming and Keyensian economics will be to blame.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:56 | 1897258 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Economics is a matter of percentages.  I am not advocating increasing annual spending by hundreds of trillions of dollars, just a couple trillio or so.  This will fill the pipeline, and spur growth.  It will advance technology, which will spur production.  Then prices will find equilibrium and we will once again be in a stage of prosperity.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:19 | 1897308 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Didn't work so far now has it and the farther along this path you go the less effective it becomes because people will and rightly should fear the collapse of their currency. People who trade the markets have been buying commodities as a result of this policy and this creates the negative feedback loop in the real economy because of the higher prices.

At what point do you give up and realize that president Hardings policy of austerity did work or do you advocate a worldwide jubilee. Because at the rate you want to spend our debt can never be paid back.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:26 | 1897321 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

The higher prices are transitory.  Once there is growth then there is an increased amount of money in the ystem.  Then we can afford the higher prices.

And what do you mean it hasn't worked?  9% unemployment might be historically high, but it would have been a lot higher if nothing had been done the first time around.  Now Europe needs to play its part and help its banking sector.  When it does, then the problem will be solved, we will increase growth, and viola!  Then we can pay back the debt increase because the economy will be on track.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:38 | 1897341 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Poverty at all time highs. Real unemployment is at least 16%.  Also, take a look at the total workforce number and you will see why unemployment can be said to be 9%.  No one can claim this policy has worked for the unemployed.

The banking sector is hiding so many losses and no one with an ounce of sense believes the numbers in their earnings reports. The real estate collapse is no different than what happened in the thirties. Banks failed then and they are going to fail now. The big difference is we are now looking a few sovereigns failing along with them.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:27 | 1897323 NewThor
NewThor's picture

Economics is a matter of percentages?

So you admit, in your equations,

human beings never are factored in?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:40 | 1897351 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

We factor in the rational consumer, if that is what you mean.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 01:05 | 1897645 knukles
knukles's picture

There is No Fucking Rational Consumer.
Jesus.
Get the fuck out of Manhattan.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 04:58 | 1897838 NewThor
NewThor's picture

Rational Consumer?

The economy has been based on impusle and need.

Since the dawn of TV/Radio. 

2001. Binary. 

The Marketing Marketers have jacked

directly in,

and are pressing the limits of

sustainable society,

and the collective

mind of mankind.

Explain to me in percentages

the rise

in Self Immolations across

the globe.

 

 

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:25 | 1897734 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

The problem Paul is the bulk of stimulus funds leaked overseas, or went into State funding where the politico's didn't use funds for restructuring. Obamacare squandered valueable political capital as did failure to reinstate Glass-Steagall. Trust and confidence are gone.

I gave this exact energy plan to GWB in 2008. Oh, I also told him in May of that year bankers would come to Washington led by Hank Paulson by September and to say a giant no and firesale TBTF.

So don't feel too bad about the end of modern civilization through world war. Starving energy countries tend to do desperate things. And let's face the other fact about foreign lobby and intent. We are to not compete with the new shining city on the hill and it aint in America. Sure, folks will just be patient for another lost decade.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:37 | 1897782 oldman
oldman's picture

@P Krugman

Dude,

Please go back to CNN

Thanks     om

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:25 | 1897319 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

 90% of the populace are morons and/or thieves

 5 % are marginal

 the rest of us have to spend our lives dodging their bullets

 

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:24 | 1897000 doggings
doggings's picture

Krugman you wanker. when are you going to get something right? 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:38 | 1897039 knukles
knukles's picture

I'd originally read (thought it was on the NYT online pay-walled edition but got little teenie tiny lettering and black splotches all over the story, so not my fault if it's not correct) that Dr. Paul'd been the one arrested after he got so pissed off with that story in the Business (the evil fuckers) section that Europe was on the verge of panicking and dissolution, abjoring his prior predelictions.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:41 | 1897049 AbeFroman
AbeFroman's picture

If Krugman is referring to technology in the sense that it comes from aliens in outer space wanting to invade Earth, then yes!

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:04 | 1897125 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

who is this guy?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:26 | 1897320 NewThor
NewThor's picture

I like robotrader way more than Paul Krugman.

Even Robotrader doesn't suggest false flag alien invasions without sarcasm.

Mr. Krugman,

You are 'WE NEED BIGGER BAILOUTS FOR BANKS'.

May u wear that badge for eternity. 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:37 | 1897201 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

When he gets out of the punditry business. My first instinct was to say "when he kicks the bucket" but my conscience wouldn't let me.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:36 | 1897029 Cdad
Cdad's picture

What will change that will "collapse" the system?

Ummm...I'll take a stab at that, Dr. Krugman:

The sheeple wake up, mostly because the jack booted thugs [aka the police] are stomping on their necks while Timaay Jeethner is simultaneously picking their pockets...as the sheeple continue to lose their jobs...because plugged in crony capital corporations [aka GE] continue to gut the nation, send jobs overseas, and loot the treasury...so that CEOs and other members of the board can cash in by selling their insider shares while simultaneously announcing share buybacks, further screwing shareholders by dilution, and fucking over the sheeple's 401k accounts...soon to be confiscated by the Federal Government via forced allocation into T bill buying programs [aka the ultimate buyer of last resort].

And as the sheeple wake up, on by one, with pepper spray in their face, their property imminent domained away so that some sleazy local politician can make some kickback jing with a mall developer, as his child comes home from government school with a bright green announcement in his back pack explaining that all Christmas carols are being rewritten with generic "holiday" lyrics so as not to offend atheists...

...just as he also hears on his car radio that because Warren Buffet doesn't pay his taxes, and Buffet has purchased the presidents ear...his tax bill is going up inversely to the value of his house [if he still has one]...as he pulls in to buy $4 gas because Wall Street is unwinding its WTI/Brent trade and calling for $110 oil because "its a good momentum trade" GDP be damned....

...while he learns that banker bonus pools are rising on the back of fixed income trade being good, as Euro bonds are shorted into oblivion and Larry Fink screams that the ECB needs to print money to bail his sorry ass out....

...and I could go on...but I see the choir is seated, as usual, and needs no preaching to.

Ummm...get the picture there, Dr. Krugman?

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:54 | 1897089 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

GE sends jobs overseas to increase their revenues.  The people that run GE make more money.  So tax the rich!  Not everyone is OWS, by the way.  Most Americans are happy with the government.  That is why they voted for Obama, and will do so again.

The rise in the price of oil is transitory.  And the price would not be rising if Americans could not afford it. 

I admit there are problems, but I think you are blowing them out of proportion.  The best way to get people to find jobs is to give them jobs, like FDR did.  Why don't we spend money to fix the roads and build bridges?  Maybe if we invested in our own country then we would be able to recover!  Ever think of that?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:22 | 1897149 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Most Americans are happy with the government.

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG. The government approval rating is so low, they are not even legitimate.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:24 | 1897174 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

They could be happier, I will admit, but most Americans agree that there is much more the government can do to get out of the recession.  We need to create more government spending to create more jobs.  Unless a major terror strike happens, like what was about to happen if the U.S. government agencies had not stopped it, then there will be no economic boom.  That is why we must take matters into our own hands and spend money on some projects that can lead to growth.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:33 | 1897191 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

BS. Debt increases much faster then any ``growth`` you can create with your government spending. Debt increasing faster then GDP means you are dead. The US is spending 8-9% of GDP in deficit. The US NEVER HAD 8-9% annual growth. And you want to INCREASE spending? Are you nuts? That means debt increases by what... 12-15% and GDP by what... a maximum of 4-5%???  You'll still be 8-9% in the hole, meaning you are still dead.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:13 | 1897296 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Citing which study?  The reason we have not achieved higher growth is because we did not spend enough the first time around.  All it would have took was a couple trillion more and unemployment would be a few percentages lower.  Then we would have increased prosperity and growth.  And then in time due to the increase in productivity we could pay back the debt.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:23 | 1897315 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

$4 trillion debt since Obama has taken office. How much more in debt? We are now at $15 trillion and growing. It is simply unsustainable and we are reaching very critical levels of debt to gdp and you know it.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:44 | 1897363 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Every President has increased the debt for the last 40 years, and you want to blame Obama?  It is what needs to be done when we have problems.  And I admit, we did not save enough during the good times.  Bush should have been the one to reduce the deficit, not Obama.  We cut taxes on the rich when he should have increased them.  Now we are forced to use drastic measures, but this is what we have to do.  Once we use our tools, then we can build a better future.  But first we must ready ourselves for work.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:12 | 1897429 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

President Clinton didn't.

The problem is we are never willing to save and in fact I've never heard you advocate saving under the president Bush regime either. How convenient. The fact is we are closer to Greece and Italy failures under this policy than we ever needed to be. Recessions aren't the end of the world. The fact is none of these politicians get re-elected when there is a recession and therefore they advocate for these crazy policies.

I respectfully will never ever see it your way.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:55 | 1897522 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

President CLinton did increase the deficit five out of eight years, and his debt was much larger than when he took office.  Wow, even the liberals here can't get their facts straight.

And no one really saw this liquidity crunch coming. 

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:43 | 1897613 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

No one really saw it coming? Bullshit. Maybe you and your keynesian hacks didn't see it coming, but plenty of people saw it coming years in advance (me included).

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:38 | 1897783 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Whistling past the graveyard. I'm helping people in my city get back to work Paul and we have learned to multiply pennies while keeping Federal Governments Eagle beak away from our ass. It isn't glorious but life in general mostly isn't anyway for the vast majority.

Pushing centralization at a time of critical mass toward the polar opposite makes you look foolish. And neither of us can 'direct' where capital goes at this point. The corruption is complete. I'll continue ruminating what we should call America 2.0. Because I for one won't support Monarchy 3d pyramids. I got done with the fascination of the Pharoah in 4th grade.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 08:47 | 1897955 Dapper Dan
Dapper Dan's picture

Mr Krugman,  You need some fresh perspective,

Please read Robert J. Samuelson new book The Great Inflation and Its Aftermath: The Past and Future of American Affluence.

He belives past presidents  worried about employment too much, and not enough about inflation.

Samuelson thinks inflation is the danger, not higher unemployment.

After reading said book I tend to agree with Samuelson,  and regarding your books and writings, NOT SO MUCH anymore.

Like your quote on Nov 17   Failure is Good?  "So the supercommittee will fail — and that’s good".

OT but for you Paul.

Carroll Quigley, President Bill Clinton's mentor and professor of history at the Foreign Service School of Georgetown University, wrote the following about the left/right paradigm in American politics.

The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy.

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:24 | 1897317 NewThor
NewThor's picture

Most Americans are happy and will vote for Obama again?

You sound like A) Aliens have invaded your brain.

      B) You only go to Bilderderg parties. 

Americans aren't happy.

Havent you looked at the 'people complaining' graphs?

People bitching, moaning, whining, being annoyed is up 3000% in the last 3 years.

No one is happy with the government.

I'll give George W. Bush credit for keeping his Base happy.

Barack Obama has acted just like Bush,

and alienated 1/2 the people who voted for him.

Lies have diminishing returns.

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:37 | 1897342 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Obama should have done more to increase growth, and then we would not be having this conversation, which is why we need to increase spending now.  Once we do, then unempolyment will fall, and we will have grwoth.  Once we have growth, then our debt will decrease in proportion to GDP.  Its mathematics.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:39 | 1897348 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Once we have growth, then our debt will decrease in proportion to GDP.

No it won't since you will continue your insane deficits. If you cut deficit spending, it will cut GDP, putting you in trouble again. Deficit spending creates false demands.

Krugman, go to a loony bin, they MIGHT have a solution for your mental problems...

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:47 | 1897368 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Look, if we had bailed out the banks with the right amount in the first place, then they would have had the  liquidity to make loans, then we would have had growth based on an increase of spending, then firms would have hired more workers.  I don't understand what is so hard to understand here.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 04:39 | 1897792 Element
Element's picture

Dear Dr. a-pauLIE ...

have you considered that it's not possible for the already over-indebted with falling wages and conditions (and very poor job security and low job and social satisfaction) to pay back these imaginary loans that you want them to make ... for stuff they don't need ... that they must become neo-slaves to repay.

One presumes/hopes you are therefore promoting loans that create growth, not just loans that consume in order to generate another thoroughly idiotic and destructive global 'demand' and debt mega-bubble ... that ensures even greater and more perilous collapse?

Yeah, I know ... print 'n spend plus HFT and crony capitalism can fix everything .... anyone ever tell you you're a certified fucking genious mate?

 

And if that really is you a-pauLIE ... welcome to zh ... ... you sticky little bitch

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 05:01 | 1897839 NewThor
NewThor's picture

REAL ECONOMICS #1

Why does a bank ever NEED to be bailed out?

 

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 05:23 | 1897845 Element
Element's picture

 

REAL ECONOMICS #1

Why does a bank ever NEED to be bailed out?

 

Because their customers went broke.

But why did their customers go broke?

Because the 'bank' bet against them.

It was all quite accidental and unfortunate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wQZKwptjPwk

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:58 | 1897399 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

You can't create wealth by printing it, legislating it or otherwise shuffling papers.  Such actions destroy wealth because they transfer purchasing power from creators and responsible savers to parasites (mostly on the top of society, some on the bottom).  As for mathematics, it is only as good as your assumptions.  Even in physics, there is always a point at which your assumptions break down and your equations predict something spectacularly wrong.  Leftists like you always assume that producers will never say "screw it" when they look at the ever-increasing stack of capricious taxes and regulations.  Keynesians like you always assume that people will never figure out that the whole system is a massive Ponzi scheme run by kleptocratic elites and the best way to protect one's heard-earned wealth is to buy gold and guns before everyone else figures out that the bailouts and corruption will never end.  Both of these assumptions are at their breaking point.

Within two years you will see the whole world in flames and you will think you could have had your technocratic utopia if you had just been allowed to twiddle this knob or that one a little sooner, but you will be wrong.  The patient has had cancer since 1913.  The cancer is draining all the energy but the cure has always been the blade, not ever-increasing doses of sugar.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 06:52 | 1897860 saiybat
saiybat's picture

Krugman is right. The key characteristic of a ponzi is constant exponential growth is necessary otherwise it collapses. If you actually produce something stagnation isn't a huge problem and you could actually handle a decline without collapsing. This depression is stagnation and there is some growth, very little but the ponzi is reeling from it. The only way to preserve the ponzi is to throw as much money at it as possible and hope some of it gets put to good use. The only thing that's surprising is that this whole ponzi system has lasted this long. I'm all for more printing and they're going to do it anyway because it's the only thing they can do.

See, Father Krugman, it's not that people here don't know what they're talking about they just have some kind of absurd notion that magicks aren't needed. They don't know how to think like a ponzi king unfortunately. Would you concur with me, Father, that the system is in fact a ponzi which you seem to have implied. Looking forward to hearing back from your infinite knowledge and crystal ball.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:37 | 1897343 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

LOL. So what unemployment a few percentages lower... they will have low paying services jobs?

Anyway, talking to you is a waste of time, you're just nuts.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:22 | 1897169 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

I think this is really him.. holy shit. If it ain't it's a damn good impression. The thing about all this Keynesian shit is that even if it would theoretically work as well as the TVA et al which is debatable in itself, maybe it helped but it didn't end the depression. It's just empty rhetoric and you know this better than I do. The government is so corrupt & inept that even if they did pass infrastructure spending it'd be riddled with fraud, outsourced like the SF Bay Bridge was & triple charged to Halliburton wannabes. Whatever plusses there would be on the macro would be invalidated ten times over by $600 hammers, clueless bureaucrats that don't enforce anything correctly and a total lack of direction.

I don't believe anybody about anything until there's real campaign finance reform, a return to Glass-Steagall and some serious Trust-Busting. It's all bullshit until then, put that in your game theory Nobel pipe & smoke it..

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:31 | 1897188 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

I am inbetween missives for the Times.  They always have me pen two and they go with which one they like better at the moment, and then they print the second one later in the week.  I have known about this site for awhile but when I began reading the comment section a few weeks ago I was surprised at how informed, yet mislead, the dialogue was.  Hopefully we can all see eye to eye, and learn from those of us who have experience in the field of economics.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:42 | 1897225 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

I can get that, I like the info here but the slant is a little sensational but whatever. I consider myself a pretty classic liberal academic, anthro is my gig so if I can't get with the program its a pretty sad state of affairs. I want to get on board it is totally impossible to take any of this as valid in any way. You can't even talk about this kind of spending without first doing the real structural reform. Its all fraud all the time. Enough is enough. I'm 38 years old & its been going the way its going since I was seven. Enough already I'm done, I appreciate the perspective but structure is defining.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:54 | 1897252 NewThor
NewThor's picture

"Experience in the field of economics"?

Weren't you the dude who suggested a faked alien invasion to fix the economy?

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:01 | 1897269 knukles
knukles's picture

Hah ha ha ha ha ha ah ah ah ah h ahahahahahahahaha

Fucksticked

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:03 | 1897278 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

No.  I said if.  If there was a perceived alien invasion.....

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:07 | 1897292 NewThor
NewThor's picture

If there was a percieved Global Bank Union....

So your all Bailouts and Printing to infinity? 

Dr. How do banks lose $30 trillion in 3 years, shouldn't we solve that problem

before giving them more money?

How EXACTLY is this money supposed to 'trickle down' into actual people's hands?

When does this money 'trickle down' to Main Street?

 

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:28 | 1897325 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

If we had given the banks more money in the first place then they would have loaned it, but we did not give them enough, so they didn't loan it, and now we need to give them more so they will loan it.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:45 | 1897360 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

They didn't loan it because they knew the collapse was coming and they had to pull out record bonuses so they could buy up real assets using the plundered wealth of the middle class.  This is all part of the plan.  You don't understand the nature of evil.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:49 | 1897377 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Where is the collapse and when is it coming?  How is it going to happen?  The middle class needs jobs, so we should create them.  We can do this by implementing spending programs like FDR did.  Seriously, the bible did a better job at forcasting than doomers.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:21 | 1897446 NewThor
NewThor's picture

You can give a bank a quadrillion dollars,

but if they make more money trading 

and parking the cash at the Fed

THEY WILL NEVER LEND. 

Don't you see this?

Yeah. Ya do.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:01 | 1897532 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Are you serious?  They aren't making any money parking cash at the Fed!  They would lend if there was aggregate demand!  But there isn't, because we haven't created it!

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 06:35 | 1897725 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

When you finally create that aggregate demand, it will be Mises's crack-up boom.  The death-rattle of the system.  You will cheer and say everything is working.

Now I see you think like an academic/ technocrat and you know more about banking than the people at Daily Kos (which isn't saying much).  On the off chance you are the real Krugman, welcome to Fight Club.  We will try to help the country by beating some sense into you.  Remember, if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight- especially if you're that German pretty-boy.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:15 | 1897481 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

The doomers got the big picture right for most of the last five years- they were just wrong about the timescale.  But awareness is growing and time is accelerating.  Here is a doomer's specific prediction for you:

Europe will blow up next year.  The Fed will secretly bail it out but the balance-sheet black holes are far bigger than the money supply, and with ongoing bank runs and plundering by insiders, that extra money will quickly flood out into the market for real goods.  China and Japan will be forced to sell bonds in order to deal with their own problems, and the Fed will print to oblivion.  Inflation will surge worldwide.  There will be food riots and brutal crackdowns.  This, plus false-flag terrorism, will be an excuse to fill up the FEMA camps.  Ron Paul will be proven right and he will be the obvious front-runner going into the election next year.  When he wins, the puppetmasters will have no choice but to blatantly steal the election for Obama.  Texas will be the first state to secede and most other states will follow, resulting in a very one-sided civil war.  NY and DC will be ruthlessly sacked by heavily armed orcish hordes.  Patriots will capture documents showing that the collapse of America was planned and that you are one of the "useful idiots". 

America will go back to gold and the Constitution and that will be the end of the gravy train for all sorts of kleptocrats, thugs and parasites.  It will truly be a collapse for the elite but it will be a new dawn of freedom for us.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:44 | 1897364 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

Smash them up into a thousand pieces first, arrest the criminals and I mean all of them and make them into utilities. Then we'll talk..

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:32 | 1897588 eaglefalcon
eaglefalcon's picture

If we had given the banks more money in the first place then they would have loaned it, but we did not give them enough, so they didn't loan it, and now we need to give them more so they will loan it.

 

Hey Doc Krug

 

I applaude you for pointing out that our whole banking industry has turned into a junkie hopelessly addicted to monetary stimuli.  It appears that, at this point, the junkie finds no satisfaction in inhaling billions from the air.  Therefore, you have rightly prescribed that trillions be injected intraveneously.  My only wish is that you could scale the stimulus up a little bit to several quadrillions or quintillions -- instead of giving the banks a few transitory fixes and temporarily highs, we should do much more for them, euthanising them probably



Mon, 11/21/2011 - 04:45 | 1897826 Element
Element's picture

small bananas ... I can't even understand what the big-deal was about TARP, geez, a trifling $750 billion ... phft! ... wouldn't even buy pauLIE a prawn-cocktail, IF the Aliens invaded.

Tyler can you perhaps commission WB7 do a post that speculates a bit about what these 'aliens' might look like, and would do for a living? Are they pure parasites?, or have they done way with all that long ago, since the great galactic wars of their racial infancy? One presumes they're somewhat more intelligent and experienced, so do these aliens still have an analogue to an economissed? ... or have the evolved beyond those sorts of dubious flights of fancy?

Do they use something analogous to Ben + MMT?

Is this in fact HOW you manage to afford a fleet of faster-than-light Star Cruisers?

Or is it just a case of necessity being the mother of invention ... as they can no longer fit a large enough horse's chaff-bag full of cash into any sort of rotor-wing vehicle?

 

(sorries if this is all getting a bit too flakey ... but Ben and Paulie started it)

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:55 | 1897255 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Even the real Paul Krugman isn't as dumb as you.  I'm guessing you're an infiltrator from Daily Kos.  You can prove us wrong by posting a word-for-word sentence or two from one of your upcoming articles, BEFORE it shows up in that rag.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:04 | 1897281 knukles
knukles's picture

Um  uh    well   the   illogical  larger state   budget expansion   government jobs       ah     Bush's fault   Republican error  
islamophobia   its ah   yada yada yada  harrumph  ad homein attack  mononucleosis       atrophybbialplugeugee   Keynes  burp  harumph everybody but me

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:04 | 1897285 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Obviously I won't do that, but I suggest you read this week, because I am sure my train of thought will continue.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:28 | 1897469 xavi1951
xavi1951's picture

Your train derailed a long time ago.  Was the Old Dr. Krugman as unenlightened as the new Dr. Krugman?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:53 | 1897361 JR
JR's picture

Touché! Dr. Krugman.

(From "The Merchant of Venice")


Tell me where is fancy bred,

Or in the heart or in the head?

How begot, how nourished?

Reply, reply.

It is engender’d in the eyes,

With gazing fed; and fancy dies

In the cradle, where it lies.

Let us all ring fancy’s knell;

I’ll begin it – Ding, dong, bell.

Ding, dong, bell

  

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 04:03 | 1897801 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

All should be welcome on this board. TBTF must be broken up and the debt haircutted. After that, a 4d-5d model can be implemented. Banking will become a utility. We may no longer see eye to eye although I was exactly on the same page in 2008. The fascist pyramid has got to go.

Of all people, I would have thought you Paup would be loudly proclaiming the futility of pouring old wine into new wineskins. Four branch government was an invention of the 18th century. We have devolved and your argument is for more without this critical flaw being addressed? The solution sets can be coded, I prefer differential math and post-modern physics to address randomness in a model. So it isn't as if people are daft here Paul, they just correctly speculate on corruption and hedge accordingly.

Vaccuming up nickles and hedging is all even the bright in our population can do right now. Pharoah refuses a new model and shall chase those damn slaves across the red sea again. Based on knowledge exponents, 40 years until the singularity. Marching in the desert, the 666/999 pyramid, forty years to enter Promised Land. At least one has to appreciate the irony.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:05 | 1897287 Cdad
Cdad's picture

I think this is really him..

What a tool.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:36 | 1897339 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

Fuck you too. Why on earth would anybody come on a site like this & pretend to be Krugman? I'm as cynical as anyone but that makes no sense. If you disagree turn off your commodore 64 & go back to mom's basement, didn't ask you in the first place..

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:43 | 1897359 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Spoken like the short bus stooge that you are.  

Maybe not everything makes perfect sense...in the first three weeks and two days?  Maybe it takes a bit more study and interaction to figure out the answer to your dumb ass question.  But hey...blaze away with it and ratchet up your stupidity in the process.  Let's see if you can flame out any future cred you might someday achieve...in less than a month.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:47 | 1897370 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

Don't you have a bomb shelter to dig & stock? If you want to contribute something, block yourself from the grownups.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:04 | 1897408 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Nope...already finished the bunker....running water, electricity, cable, in floor heat..the works.  Guess how long it took me to build?  3 weeks/ 2 days.

You're asserting that you are the grownup?  Here you are, completely stooging for fake Krugman...and you think I live in my mom's basement...and somehow you are...contributing?  I think you need to ease up on the New Age Self-Esteem video series there, buddy.  That shit will fill your head up with all sorts of delusions of grandeur. 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:10 | 1897424 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

Not really my fucking problem. Sitting here watching this gawdawful game like any other Sunday nite. And I never asked for your opinion so shut the fuck up. Go hang out in your bunker for a couple decades, I'll send you a telegraph in Morse Code when its safe to come out. 2036 sounds in the ballpark.. bbye

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:33 | 1897479 xavi1951
xavi1951's picture

I'll say it...........  YOU ARE A PUSSY!  You talk tough, but without a brain or a gun, YOU ARE A PUSSY!

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:59 | 1897488 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Sure thing "LongOnSpam"  Did you even think about your handle when you decided to suggest that I'm bunkering up?  I'll be sure to do exactly what a tool like you tells me to do...as you flame out in record time...just like many of you low caliber, name calling twats who come and go like passing gas on twofer night at the taco stand.  

Listen, if you want to get all frisky with me on the board here, you really need to raise your game.  It's always a complete lack of imagination that reveals you guys.  You presume your audience is stupid.  That is always your first mistake.  And then come all the others...

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:15 | 1897558 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

What exactly am I presuming here, I'm here for comedy only in the Carlin tradition. Never taken a fucking stake in this game, never will. Not worth my soul or my time.

You see you are fucking stupid and a fraud and a joke. If theoretically you were all in on this whole Libertarian free market end the Fed yadda yadda it still is utter bullshit. It's the same ol same ol since the beginning of time. Liberty/Freedom is an illusion and anyone with a bit of real education knows this. All douches like you are arguing for is a regime change to, uhh let's see.. you. Thanks but I'm good. People like me understand that the only real nature of freedom is anarchy. And if you are a true believer then fine, you can have it, just long enough for one of the rationals to come and kill you, take your fucking gold and the economic power that comes with it so we can reinstate the rule of law and get on with our lives.

You get so tied up with the minutia of the natural human state, i.e. robbing, lying & killing and who's fucking who which way that you can't see the forest for the trees dude. There's nothing new and nothing to freak out about. Its business as usual, the rich vs the poor, capital vs labor, bourgeoisie vs the proletariat, aristocracy vs the common man, on & on the merry go round turns ever more. Only the score changes.

If you freak out about this what the fuck would you have done if you'd have lived in 12th century France or Tunisia during the fall of Rome? Same fucking thing I bet, nothing. So believe your narcissistic bullshit if you want, won't change the world though more than thinking you can fly. But I'd caution you not to piss off the wrong people if you continue your incessant diatribes, not everyone has my patience.

Like Carlin said, I ain't got a stake in this race. I just like watching a good car crash. Besides if you mattered why would you be here?

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:51 | 1897605 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Wow...what pearls of wisdom from a can of spam.

Carlin...he died a bitter old man.

"Liberty is a Malatov cocktail"...that's just great.

What exactly are you talking about when you say "one of the rationals."  Do you realize that does not mean anything?

And how stupid is it to accuse someone of writing diatribes...while writing a diatribe.  By the way, I did not write one...but only called you out.

"Minutia of the natural human state"...ummm, that must have been one of the other voices in your head.

And then...the veiled threat.  Let me ask you...who are the wrong people to piss off, LongOnSpam?  Hmmm?  And who is coming to kill me?  Hmmmm?  You, Spam?

I understand entirely why you are here, by the way.  I did not need an explanation, at all...but thanks for showing the entire board just why you are here.  You have now flamed out entirely.  Nice work.  2 weeks and 3 days...and you already need a new user name.

Our dialogue is now complete.  Good night, Hong Kong.

 

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:57 | 1897631 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

Gimme a fucking break, indefensible positions wrapped in let's see more nothingness. Yeah George Carlin died an old man but far from bitter. Honest and beloved by millions, what the fuck have you ever done? Oh yeah blog on a financial website and spew doomsday prophesies, wow that's so cool. Can I be you and pretend to be profound by sifting through other thieves opinions all day wining that the world isn't fair.. It's the best life in the history of the world. And it contributes so much to society.

Make sure you lock the door to the storm cellar when you climb in for the night, you wouldn't want the gypsy Jews to get & steal your gold.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 01:02 | 1897638 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

Oh yeah don't forget to +1 yourself and -1 mine again because that matters.. what is it again when you incessantly stomp and scream to get your way again, oh yeah a tantrum.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 04:19 | 1897814 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Haha that was funny (c64). Who owned the Ghostbusters game? That was a cool game.

One thing seems sure, lot of us unsettled to be here Sunday night but bouncing feedback is best when both hands are clapping.

My deal is I say we take the pain now and bring the old folks into the home. Both America and China have to deal with it without pissing each other off to much and some respect has to be paid Russia in how the world changed of late.

I have a debate program launching very soon. I'll ask you on Paul. Would you debate Steve Keen?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:54 | 1897234 Vagabond
Vagabond's picture

"The rise in the price of oil is transitory".  WRONG  There is no way we can continue to count on oil for much longer than a couple more decades unless oil starts falling from the sky.  The oil price will be on a trajectory up that entire time, short term volatility not withstanding.  Stop ignoring the issues, snorting pixie dust and pointing out unicorns.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:31 | 1897331 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Incerasing spending will increase technology.  Increasing technology will increase production.  Increasing production will increase supply.  Increasing supply will decrease price.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:39 | 1897347 Vagabond
Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:03 | 1897402 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

... increasing spending will increase technology...

 

Except when it's govt doing the spending. Prime example: Solyndra.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 01:00 | 1897634 prole
prole's picture

True.
Worse than Solyndra, which did no harm, just sucked up money for well-connected scammers and their Krugmanian cheerleaders, and did nothing--??

War companies. Tear gas manufacturers. "Rubber bullet ex-marine skull crusher" companies. Orwellian radiating cancer machine companies. Suck up money and create ~~ can't finish the thought without __________ the thread.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:30 | 1897472 lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

increased production decreases employment.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 01:23 | 1897675 Chingalay
Chingalay's picture

Very nice Dr. K. I feel enlightened. Please don't stop.  A couple more sentences and we can hear about increased bids for Solyndra.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 04:49 | 1897834 Element
Element's picture

Assuming input prices in general and wages and disposable income fall this should be just dandy ...

oh ... wait a minute ...

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:51 | 1897248 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

The rise in the price of oil is tied right now to the US dollar. The dollar is being controlled by the Federal Reserve. If the Federal Reserve begins further QE the dollar will weaken and oil prices will rise even in a weak global demand environment. The oil market is priced in dollars and a weak dollar will create an artificilly high oil price. Now we all know what great effects the high price of oil has on our economy(sarcasm). Creates quite the conundrum for you Keynesian fools doesn't it.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:34 | 1897336 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

You are correct until the economy recovers.  The Federal Reserve is doing everything it can to make the economy recover, but congress will not do what is necessary to increase spending.  If we can increase spending then we can increase the production of oil.  This will make the price of oil fall.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:05 | 1897400 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

No no no no.. there's a little something called price discovery. The market determines the price not an unelected central banker, I know it's a radical concept and hasn't been done since before the rise of OPEC but ho about we try it & see what happens? Couldn't be any worse..

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:03 | 1897404 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

The failure occurs when the debt is no longer serviceable. Much like you see all over Europe.

Also, the more debt we create the more money we take away from our government because we have to use it to pay our creditors. Effectively we reduces the spending our government can put into the economy. Hence weaker and weaker recoveries. Assuming recoveries we once experienced in years gone by is not warrented.

 

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 05:10 | 1897837 Element
Element's picture

So ... it's three cheers for the Fed then? ... eh?

nah ... it's a troll ... well done tho ... but to come into zh and suggest we cheer-on the Fed? ... geez ... even the kRUG ain't THAT stupid ... you laid it on just a bit too thick there.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 23:07 | 1897413 Milestones
Milestones's picture

You're getting  a lot of bites1     Milestones

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 01:29 | 1897680 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

Most Americans are happy with the government.  That is why they voted for Obama, and will do so again.

Really?  Then why has Obama's approval rating dropped to the low 40s?

The rise in the price of oil is transitory

Really?  Do tell us then what will cause the price to drop and when it will happen.

The best way to get people to find jobs is to give them jobs, like FDR did. 

Where does the money come from to fund all these jobs?

Maybe if we invested in our own country then we would be able to recover! 

So tell us why most of the "stimulus" money goes to enlarge the government and bail out banks?  How much of it actually goes into the economy to fund these FDR style jobs you speak of?

Also, how would these FDR style jobs you speak of help reduce America's trade deficit?

And why do you support ZIRP, knowing it's robbing average Americans of income on their savings?  Do you just not care about average Americans?

Why do you keep talking about government spending more money to boost the economy when the govenrment has already spent a couple trillion dollars since '08 and the economy is steadily getting worse?

Why do you keep talking about the govenrment spending more money when you know that money has to be borrowed from the Fed, who prints it out of thin aire, steadily reducing the value of the dollar, like the 1/3 loss of value just since Sept '08?

Why do you support destruction of average Americans' purchasing power so the Fed can keep printing and the governmetn can keep borrowing more money?

What good is it to create a few hundred thousand FDR style jobs when money to fund those jobs has to be borrowed, resulting in loss of purchasing power for 300 million Americans?

You say more money in the economy will help things.  How will it help things when putting all that extra money in the economy would cause the the value of the dollar to drop even further?

Why do you stubbornly ignore how the dollar is losing value as a result of policies you support?  Why do all your government and banker friends ignore it?

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 02:43 | 1897754 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Paul, much can still be done at the local and state level. When the Sr. inside leadership gives up on the country and loots instead then it means my immediate family and friends survival are now my main concerns. Those at the top like Monarchy and the 3d pyramid even though we could build 5d government. And since they have the really big weapons and we don't it means they have particular hedges that make them feel impervious which historically we know doesn't preserve an empire.

How about the reserve currency peg prize? Not all countries float and that is also OK even though in public it is argued against. I will keep dancing until the music stops on behalf of the people but I have become like my Grandmother. She stopped buying stock in 1928 and resume in 1963. When it comes to trust, it can not be forced.

I own a small business. We don't stand a chance out here unless I wish to serve the political sector almost exclusively. Not sustainable in the slightest!

Everything is stolen from the top or bottom. I could work more hours but what is the point? To support a banking noble lord or a welfare queen that lives better than my family?

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:15 | 1897156 PlausibleDenial
PlausibleDenial's picture

Best comment in a long time.... Kudos.  FYI, I am going to copy/paste and email to my distribution list of sheeples.  Full attribution to you, of course.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 03:53 | 1897798 oldman
oldman's picture

Very nice, Cdad and thanks.

I find myself wondering often on this 'collapse' why we don't see that the collapse has been in progress for several years now. When I think about all that could go wrong at the same time and what it will be like without the banks, the Euro, and 'capital markets' I always laugh at how outrageous it seems. I don't know how much bigger it will be than what has already passed and is passing, but we seem hoping that everything goes at the same time like those geeks in front of the TV cheering for a bigger hurricane with stronger winds----like it is a fucking football game.

It seems that the choir is seated but getting a little tired of the same old story every day----at least this choirmember is.

"Dr. Krugman' is ------------------------------fill in the blank, but he is not for real anymore than the infamous terrorist passport found on the sidewalk in front of the WTC.

Anyway, you explained it to him so well that maybe he'll just go away      he is a real boor               om

of course, he could be one of the Tylers just having some fun   i'd like that!     

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:47 | 1897067 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

Patient;  "Hey Doc,  it hurts when I do this?"

Dr. Krugman;  "then think of the economic consequences of post growth indices and yields before you do that again. and again. and again. and again.

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 20:59 | 1897102 rufusbird
rufusbird's picture

"This sucker's going down."

President Bush, fall 2008

The question is...What has changed since 2008 that assures that it can't happen now?

 

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:06 | 1897134 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

We bailed out the banks, but didn't go far enough.  Bush had stage fright because he let politics get in the way, but at least he did TARP.  Obama had the right idea but came up short.  We did better than Europe, though.  That is why they need to band together and nationalize their banking system.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 21:23 | 1897171 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

I wish that ``terrorist`` would blow up your office Krugman.

Sun, 11/20/2011 - 22:56 | 1897390 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

Now I'm doubting, this sounds more like Robo or an intern at the Squid.. The Euro was doomed from the beginning and everyone knows this even if they won't admit it. Even if you do 'continentalize' the whole thing under a fiscal union or whatever Greece & Germany will never ever be compatible with a single currency. At this point why even bother with a split currency? Break it up & let everyone go on their merry way already. There's money to be made making passports agdain.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:48 | 1897621 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Europe is very compatible.  They share a land mass, they are close in proxemity.  They share ideals.  They share trade.  The firms and people in Europe rely on each other.

The only problem is that everyone is panicking.  Look at how the U.S. has fixed the problems.  Could we have done more?  Yes.  Should Europe do more?  Obviously.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 00:54 | 1897628 knukles
knukles's picture

That's why they like to kill one another so much.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 23:47 | 1901285 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

Have you ever been there? You sound like you haven't. There isn't even a swap meet in Munich that has anything in common with Athens. Who says the world is going to end if sovereign nations go back to the same old currencies they had for centuries? Who really is paying you to spew this junk?

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 01:39 | 1897687 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

We bailed out the banks, but didn't go far enough. 

How far should we have gone?

Why hasn't the trillions of dollars given to banks so far helped the economy revcover one little bit?

And you hoestly think a few more trillion will do it?  If you do, you're insane, crazy, looney tunes.

Mon, 11/21/2011 - 05:43 | 1897846 rufusbird
rufusbird's picture

Paul, The problem is you and a lot of others are offering "Econ" solutions to an Accounting problem.It is like loosing money on every item you sell and saying "We make it up on volume". Economics theories would not have avoided Enron, or Bernie Madoff, and they won't clean up the insolvency inssues that are permeating the western financial system with massive amounts of leveraged toxic debt hidden on the balance sheets.

Can you truly defend lack of transparency? Would another trillion spent on Jobs have prevented MF Global?

Will it prevent another one?

Rufusbird

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