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Mike Krieger Asks Whether September 11, 2001 Is Our Big Lie

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From Michael Krieger of KAM LP


“I am convinced that there was a direct line between at least some of the terrorists who carried out the September 11th attacks and the government of Saudi Arabia,” former Senator Bob Graham, Democrat of Florida, said in an affidavit filed as part of a lawsuit brought against the Saudi government and dozens of institutions in the country by families of Sept. 11 victims and others. Mr. Graham led a joint 2002 Congressional inquiry into the attacks.
Their affidavits, which were filed on Friday and have not previously been disclosed, are part of a multibillion-dollar lawsuit that has wound its way through federal courts since 2002. An appellate court, reversing an earlier decision, said in November that foreign nations were not immune to lawsuits under certain terrorism claims, clearing the way for parts of the Saudi case to be reheard in United States District Court in Manhattan.

Still, Washington has continued to stand behind Saudi Arabia publicly, with the Justice Department joining the kingdom in trying to have the lawsuits thrown out of court on the grounds that the Saudis are protected by international immunity.

The senators’ assertions “might inject some temporary strain or awkwardness at a diplomatic level,” said Kenneth L. Wainstein, a senior national security official in the George W. Bush administration. Even so, he said, “the United States and the Saudis have developed strong counterterrorism cooperation over the last decade, and that relationship will not be undermined.

- NY Times article from today

How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don’t think.

- Adolf Hitler

September 11, 2001: Our Big Lie

I wasn’t planning on writing this week, but so much stuff has come out in the last two days that I couldn’t help myself from trying to get this information out to as wide an audience as possible.  Those of you that have been long time readers are aware of the fact that I witnessed 9/11 firsthand.  On that fateful morning, I was getting breakfast at 3 World Financial Center when all of a sudden people started panicking and saying we were evacuating the building.  I never made it back up to my cubicle and instead took my toast and orange juice downstairs with me.  When I got down there I couldn’t believe my eyes.  There in from of me was a huge smoldering black hole in the first tower that was hit.  I was one block away just starring at this symbol of the city I was born in with sheer terror.  People all around starting speculating as to what caused it.  I heard ridiculous theories such as a “helicopter hit it.”  It looked like a bomb to me.  In any event, we all stood there very close until out of nowhere I heard a massive explosion and saw debris spewing from behind the building.  In case you are unaware of how the buildings were situated, from my viewpoint the first building that got hit totally blocked the second tower.  I didn’t see or hear a plane, just a massive explosion.  The ground shook and people started to stampede away.  I almost got tossed into a nearby trashcan as my opened orange juice container spilled all over me.  I retreated about one hundred yards back to regroup with the herd. 

At this point the word had started to get around that two planes had hit the buildings.  Several friends and I decided to walk back to my apartment, which at the time was on 12th street between 3rd and 4th avenue.  Cell phones didn’t work.  My parents and brother who was studying abroad in Australia at the time all thought I might be dead.  I saw people jumping to their death.  I saw the first building come down in person as I walked home.  I never returned to 3 World Financial Center as it became a temporary morgue.  Lehman Brothers relocated to the Sheraton Hotels in Midtown for the next several months and my group worked out of a small conference room.

While 9/11 was far more traumatic for many Americans than for myself, it really messed me up emotionally for a while.  I thought about joining the armed forces or the newly created Department of Homeland Security.  I almost quit my job to get a graduate degree in something I could do to help fight the “war on terror.”  The city of my birth was attacked and two great symbols I had seen repeatedly growing up had suddenly vanished.  I never once questioned anything about 9/11 for many, many years.  I was emotionally reprogrammed.  I now realize that was the intent and I am not happy about it.

Look, I will be the first to say I have no idea what really happened on that day, but I can tell you one thing.  I am 100% convinced that it wasn’t 19 cave dwelling Al Qaeda members who hate us for our “freedoms.”  I can also tell you that two planes didn’t take down three buildings.  Building 7.  Oh building 7.  Explain to me how this massive building came down demolition style when nothing hit it? 

The real reason I am writing this piece today is because of a very, very important article from the NY Times, parts of which I have quoted at the top.  The article shows how two former Senators have said in sworn statements that they believe the government of Saudi Arabia was directly involved in the attacks.  Now, such speculation is not new; however, let’s not forget the very close relationships that many of the elite in the U.S. have with the Saudi government.  Furthermore, let’s analyze some of the passages in the article in a little more detail.  

Still, Washington has continued to stand behind Saudi Arabia publicly, with the Justice Department joining the kingdom in trying to have the lawsuits thrown out of court on the grounds that the Saudis are protected by international immunity.

The senators’ assertions “might inject some temporary strain or awkwardness at a diplomatic level,” said Kenneth L. Wainstein, a senior national security official in the George W. Bush administration. Even so, he said, “the United States and the Saudis have developed strong counterterrorism cooperation over the last decade, and that relationship will not be undermined.”

Let’s start with the first line.  The “Saudis are protected by international immunity.”  WTF does that mean?  They are protected by international immunity?  Where was this international immunity for Iraq before we bombed them into the stone age?  Where was the international immunity for Libya before we decided regime change would be a good idea there?  Where is the international immunity for Iran now?  The hypocrisy and ridiculousness of the propaganda has now reached epic status.

Now to the second line.  “Even so, he said, “the United States and the Saudis have developed strong counterterrorism cooperation over the last decade, and that relationship will not be undermined.”  If this doesn’t tell you right then and there that the entire “war on terror” is a smokescreen sham then nothing will.  So let me get this straight.  According to this logic it may not matter that the Saudis were involved in 9/11 because they have been a great ally in counterterrorism.  So the guys that played a role in the attack are our allies in fighting themselves.  How convenient!  2+2 does indeed equal 5 in the USA.

Now here is a very telling clip to watch from that creep Joe Scarborough, who is probably a creation of Operation Mockingbird  Here is the clip.

Did you catch that?  When confronted with the potential of Saudi involvement, this little weasel Steven Rattner (remember he was Obama’s car czar) comes out and states “I think it may fall a little bit into the category of things you just kind of don’t want to know.”  Excuse me Rattner?  Things WHO doesn’t want to know.  I sure as hell want to know and I am pretty sure everyone else in America and world wants to know since this event is what led to a massive crackdown on civil liberties and wars all across the world.  Not to mention the fact it has led to U.S. fiscal and economic ruin.  What he means is that this is something the government doesn’t want YOU to know.  Notice how right away he mentions how much oil the Saudis produce.  This clip really exposes the mindset of the criminals that make up the U.S. social, political and economic elite. 

Then Donnie Deutch says “I don’t know where you go with this,” to which Scarborough states “I don’t think you go anywhere with this.”  Go back to sleep America. 

Then there is the real kicker.  They end the segment debating whether they will be summering in the Hamptons, Martha’s Vineyard or Nantucket.  Laughing the whole time.  Laughing at their audience for being such stupid sheep.

Andrew Breitbart

I want to conclude this piece by stating I am quite curious what sorts of natural causes made a 43 year old collapse.  As my friend commented…”He's in decent shape and goes naturally yet Soros and Rockefeller look the like living dead yet they are walking and live to be 185yrs old.”

Oh and by the way.  He claimed to have videos that would expose banker puppet Obama.  Don’t believe me?  Take a watch.  He made this statement 20 days ago.  Then drops dead.  At least they didn’t use a hot tub this time.

RIP Andrew.  I didn’t always agree with you, but you were a fighter.

Rest up this weekend everyone.  I think things are about to get crazy.

Peace and wisdom,


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Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:56 | 2217447 Biosci
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Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:03 | 2217493 francis_sawyer
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:05 | 2217508 markmotive
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Conspiracy theory isn't just for crack pots anymore...


Perhaps one of the best academic lectures on 9/11

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:15 | 2217526 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I for one am still curious as to how the US believes anyone saving more than $250 /month in an offshore savings plan might be a terrorist. Sounds like a lame excuse to me...

'“the United States and the Saudis have developed strong counterterrorism cooperation over the last decade, and that relationship will not be undermined.” ' - delete counterterrorism and insert offshore investing...

3,000 Americans died so that the US could open up offshore financial centers and tax americans and well, give it to the banks...

Sounds peachy.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:27 | 2217600 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

saudi's did 9/11? more disinfo. rogue elements of the USSA government in conjunction with the mossad carried out 9/11.

classic false flag. but the sheep will continue thinking that a few dudes who couldnt fly cessnas flew large boeing 757s at high rates of speed into precision targets, all the while fooling a $40 billion dollar NORAD air defense system, and this whole thing was planned by a dude living in a cave on the other side of the planet. Oh and the laws of thermodynamics failed that day and thick vertical steel columns with a melting point of 2700 degrees farhenheit melted in 1200 degree fire. (ignore the countless dust samples taken by scientists that found thermite enriched with silicon for more explosivity)

the official story of 9/11 is one crazy fucking conspiracy theory. but everybody believes it.

And an invisible plane hit the pentagon, have you ever seen video footage of a plane hitting the most defended building in the world that is surrounded by cameras? oh yea, and that shanksville PA plane crash was unique in that there was NO FUCKING PLANE there. and WTC7 just decided to fall in on itself that day too.

The average 'Merican is fucking retarded for believing this shit. now they will try to steer their hatred toward the saudi's for a future war

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:27 | 2217614 Conrad Murray
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The first 30 minutes of this:

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:40 | 2217682 TruthInSunshine
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I am not an engineer or physicist, so some of the claims and counterclaims about what was and wasn't possible that day are admittedly over my comrehension, but not all the claims are.

One of the things I find oddest about the official story is more along the lines of something that doesn't mesh with my common sense (there is more than one thing, but this one thing is something I haven't found a rational answer to as of yet):

It's the passport of one of the alleged hijackers that was found relatively unscathed, on the streets around the towers, in the rubble.

How could it be that a document comprised of the materials that passports are comprised of not be severely damaged if not completely destroyed as a result of being inside of a commercial airliner, loaded with jet fuel fuel, that struck a massive steel and concrete building, literally causing the plane to spontaneously combust as it disintegrated upon impact?

Maybe someone can adequately explain how that passport not only survived in apparently decent condition, let alone legible condition, intact, but how it wasn't destroyed completely.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:47 | 2217716 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

funny how they found these passports perfectly intact, but havent been able to find the black boxes from the planes for the last eleven years.

makes perfect sense.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:17 | 2217889 Pinto Currency
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See the now deceased demolition expert Danny Jowenko Comment on WTC 7:


See also:

Dr. Sabrosky was a Director of Studies and Adjunct Professor at the U.S. Army War College.

Iran's Press TV Interview with Dr. Sabrosky:

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:46 | 2218076 Abitdodgie
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We were told that it was  Al-Qaeda but , I dont get it.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:37 | 2218216 clymer
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ya know, I am surprised. I expected to see that pukey little weasel trav somewhere near the top of these comments. I mean shit, he follows Krieger around this site like a giddy school girl trying play grab ass with the popular boy in the classroom. puke.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:16 | 2218486 Spirit Of Truth
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The Russians did it:

And Hitler was right....people don't think. The Kremlin is counting on this.

"If you are serious about the global war, let us try and think strategically. The most important strategic target in that war is the Kremlin. That is not only the best way to start winning it, but, as far as I can see, the only way. Paraphrasing Alexander (Litvinenko), we can say it is impossible to destroy the international terrorism even in a century unless you disband the Russian secret services first." 

- Pavel Stroilov, a Russian exile in London and the editor and translator of Alexander Litvinenko’s book, AllegationsThe Putin-Osama Connection, FrontPage Magazine, 1/16/08

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:56 | 2218841 comrade pravda
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Wacky Conspiracy Theory:

Twenty or so Saudi youths outwitted the United States' military and forced the peace-loving American people to start multiple wars of occupation.

The Iraq and Afghanistan wars have been lost.  Let's not start another one with Iran because the American people will lose again even as we kill Iranian civilians.

Fuck the Coke and Pepsi parties which rule this country.  By the way if you don't know which party is Coke and which is Pepsi it doesn't fucking matter because they are the same fucking thing.


Sat, 03/03/2012 - 09:06 | 2219456 taxpayer102
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"Let us separate fact from fiction, rhetoric from reality and FINALLY challenge the official story of who committed this horrific crime. Compelling evidence will be revealed that 9/11 was an INSIDE JOB."

9/11 What Really Happened and Why?

Presented Saturday, February 25, 2012

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 13:18 | 2219736 Spirit Of Truth
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ZH is full of "useful idiots".

The Kremlin thanks you for your unwitting support.

You all are "free thinkers" about as much as cattle headed to the slaughterhouse.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 06:51 | 2223437 Disenchanted
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Well if it were the Russians I guess the payback(blowback?) for the US involvement in Afghanistan during the Soviet years was a real bitch.


The "unintended consequences" Ron Paul speaks of today?


I think there were multiple entities/interests involved and multiple agendas were served both domestically and globally by the events of 9/11/2001.


You might say many birds were killed with one stone that day. Or four stones(WTC 1, 2, 7 & the Pentagon).

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:07 | 2218636 Michael
Michael's picture

Al-Qaeda translated to English = The Base!
People are just plain stupid.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 03:27 | 2219145 TruthInSunshine
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PNAC's 'New Pearl Harbor', Odigo, Urban Movers, Janitors, 'the base', Tim Osman & much more, oh my!

I really am not into conspiracy theories, generally speaking, but there's so much in the aggregrate that either makes no common sense, little common sense, or is directly contrary to common sense (events well before 9/11 through the days, months and even years after 9/11, from the Clinton era PNAC group writing the blueprints calling for the need for a 'New Pearl Harbor' to act as the catalyst to initiate regime change throughout the middle east - sans Israel - to the, yep, you guessed it,  'Arab Spring' of spontaneous regime changes that abruptly swept the middle east - sans Israel - toppling government after government).

I can't possibly know what is or isn't true, but am putting out some pretty interesting claims for those who may have not been aware of them prior:


First, the Odigo 'issue'. Mind you, I will cite Haaretz, which is a main stream Israeli newspaper, and NOT Alex Jones:



Odigo says workers were warned of attack - Haaretz Daily



 But this is a HEAVILY REVISED story. No one can find the original one - it just got clean wiped off the web, apparently.


***And why were so many articles and news reports about Urban Moving since scrubbed (here is a partial list based on Google's cache function)?:


And then, there is the bizarre claims about 'the base':




Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:20 | 2219309 swani
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Or why, in response to the biggest crime in our country's history, and after the testimony of over a hundred eye witnesses who testified that they witnessed explosions coming from beneath the buildings or elevator shafts, the September 11th Commission did not test for explosives.  

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:58 | 2217791 LowProfile
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It was probabaly on the dashboard of the plane.

Here's a good one to pass along

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:18 | 2217902 john39
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building 7 is all you need to know.  there is no explanation for building 7 that can't be disproven as utter horsehit in five seconds.   once you know that, who cares about the rest, the government is lying about all of it.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:13 | 2218157 kridkrid
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That's been my position all along. Once you recognize that the story on Building 7 is a complete and utter lie, no other part of the story can be believed. You know the scene in the Sixth Sense... The montage of all of the moments throughout the movie that could have told you that Bruce Willis was a ghost... Building 7 is like that. Once you recognize things for what they are, things in hindsight make more sense.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:30 | 2218221 MachoMan
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JFC man...  you had the perfect setup for TYLER DURDEN and screwed it all up...  you know, all those moments throughout fight club that could have told you tyler was a figment of cornelius' imagination?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:54 | 2218276 kridkrid
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I'm such a fuck-up. But as a credit to Fight Club, that's far from the first thing I think or talk about when talking about Fight Club. Sixth Sense is a one trick pony. But yes, I suck.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:24 | 2217946 vato poco
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Hell, if it's 9-11 mysteries day, riddle me this: How come nobody, especially the USG, ever talks about that fact that 4 planes were taken midflight and not 1 hijack call was made? Even if "the 19" were Supermen and not the fuckups they were, it would have taken them at least a few seconds to enter, commandeer, and secure a flight deck, no?

THe following info came to me via a long-time airline pilot: So why didn't anyone on any of those flight decks get a hijack call off? Multiple ways to do it, but the 2 fastest and easiest are 1) say"squawk 7500" into your radio 2) **push the button** that every member of the flight crew had. You could do both simultaneously, and it might - might - take you maybe a whole second. But nobody on 9-11 did. Por Que No?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:35 | 2218797 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

7500 is the ATC transponder four digit code for hijacking. There are two transponders installed in the radio rack with one control head in the cockpit. A "squawk" into the comm would be stated in plain English that a hijack was in progress.

It wouldn't of mattered anyway. You are on your own in that situation. A skilled pilot would use the aircraft as a weapon if he could. Climbs, dives, hard banks. If you're not strapped in you're a ping-pong ball. Unfortunately, none of that matters. The pilots were taken out early.  The PA plane crash never was and neither was the Pentagon.  The true events concerning those two will most likely never be known. I will say the "Let's Roll" thing was a total lie. Cell phone communication technology via aircraft was not available in 2001. My gut feeling was that those two planes landed somewhere and the people on board were "taken off", never to be seen again.

The tower aircraft were remote controlled. Skilled 767 pilots would be hard pressed to hit those buildings dead on. Don't think it can be done????? Most modern aircraft fly themselves and land themselves. The pilots program the flight management system and pretty much everything is "auto" from there. Airbus 320,330,340 don't even have control yokes. They have joysticks similar to video games. The 777 has a yoke, but it only feeds force sensors under the floor. Computers "fly" the aircraft. Those plaanes were guided into or programmed into the towers.

Both towers and building 7 were per-wired with explosives. Absolutely no doubt about it.

Your government murders foreigners for nothing but lies. Your government murders Americans for the bankers.

I've screamed it out. Nobody listens. Nobody does anything about it. What is it going to take people??

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:07 | 2218862 New World Chaos
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You and vato poco would probably like this theory of what really happened:

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:08 | 2218983 DaveyJones
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good post

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:15 | 2218489 Hooter Shaker
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The hijacker flung it out the window right before he nailed the tower, duh!

Tue, 03/06/2012 - 00:52 | 2226981 TruthInSunshine
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:32 | 2217631 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Obviously you have no idwea how easy it is to fly a 757, and especially if you don't need to take off or land.

False flag? Do us all a favour and shut the fuck up.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:45 | 2217659 Comay Mierda
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go sit back on your couch in your underwear with your natty lite and watch american idol like a good sheeperson

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:19 | 2217909 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

What makes you think I watch American Idol?

Evidently some of us are more intelligent than yiou give us credit for, which is probably why you keep spouting this shit.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:29 | 2217984 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

well i guess i was right about the sitting on your couch in your underwear drinking natty lite.  maybe you're too busy watching o'reilly instead of 'merican idol

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:35 | 2218021 Harlequin001
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Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:23 | 2218769 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Thank you for outing yourself as either a shill or a brain-dead moron. I'll bear it in mind for your future posts. These "touchstone" topics are invaluable!

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:18 | 2219000 Biosci
Biosci's picture

aren't you the chemtrails guy?

this is _wildly_ successful clickbait!   huge read count!

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 01:14 | 2219209 i-dog
i-dog's picture

LOL ... Shouldn't you be tidying your room, or finishing your homework?

And please do tell us what you learned in school today about chemtrails. It sounds like a big word for a little fella....

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:53 | 2219541 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

"outing yourself as either a shill or a brain-dead moron" Please, do us all a favour and elaborate...

You never know, maybe you even have an opinion.

Though I doubt it...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:34 | 2218796 comrade pravda
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Who are these f'ing morons who dream of being video game controllers (sitting in Las Vegas) flying drones and killing babies in Afghanistan, but who lack the tiny bit of intellectual capacity to understand that the planes on 9/11 were flown into the towers by remote control or via pre-programmed flight plans?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:59 | 2219547 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

What, not by UFO's and fucking aliens then? If you're going to dream up ridiculous fucking stories then at least try and make it interesting...

so were they 'remote control or via pre-programmed flight plans'. or perhaps they were both, just for good measure?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 12:19 | 2219624 comrade pravda
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My how you attempt to derail the issue in a manner that might appeal to a reader who has no knowledge of the topic.

I find it more than sufficiently "interesting" that war criminals associated with groups such as PNAC (Project for a New American Century) would stage a false flag attack against the USA just as Hitler would burn the Reichstag.

History will show who the war criminals are, and they include the likes of

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:10 | 2218434 cranky-old-geezer
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You debunkers are all alike.  You never give any facts to support your arguments. 

Ad-hominem attack is your only methodology, because you have no factual methodology.  It's imposable to come up with facts to support a myth.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:00 | 2218734 nmewn
nmewn's picture

A 911 thread is always a great place to get into a fight.

"You debunkers are all alike.  You never give any facts to support your arguments."

I read the article. I read the commentary up to, I didn't click on any links.

I don't see any facts.

I see former senators Kerry & Graham who led the 2002 Congressional inquiry to discover the, "asserting" the Saudis had something to do with it or should have known of it or should have warned of it and make note of the civil lawsuit seeking monetary damages.

I'm all about evidence and fact just like you.

If they did...hang them from the yard arm...if we can lay hands on them, which is another matter completely. At least we got past the hocum of jooo voice to skull software technology mimicking passengers/crew and remote controlled aircraft or Mossad suicide pilots.

Riveting reading that

The five Saudi Princes under suspicion should be named in the interests of freedom of the press we (or at least I) still hold dear...they are:

*Prince Turki Al-Faisal Al-Saud, "past head of Saudi intelligence, coordinated Saudi financial and logistical support for al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and the Taliban.

In July 1998, Prince Turki brokered an agreement between these parties in which the Saudis provided al Qaeda the Taliban with generous financial assistance in exchange for a pledge by bin Laden and the Taliban that al Qaeda would not attack the Saudi royal family."

*Prince Salman Bin-Abdulaziz Al-Saud "has a long history of funding Islamic extremists through his work as chairman of the General Donation Committee for Afghanistan. In this capacity, Prince Salman made substantial personal contributions to al Qaeda front charities with the full knowledge the charities were misappropriating funds and involved in terrorist activities."

*Prince Naif Bin-Abdulaziz Al-Saud, "who has long supported Palestinian suicide bombers, provided pay-off money to al Qaeda. His oversight of al Qaeda charity al Haramain allowed it to support bin Laden and al Qaeda unabated."

*Prince Mohamed Al-Faisal Al-Saud "headed the Islamic bank Dar al Maal al Islami, which provided global financial services and financing to al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden."

*Prince Sultan Bin-Abdulaziz Al-Saud, "whose responsibilities included overseeing Islamic charitable funding in Saudi Arabia, funded al Qaeda through personal contributions to Islamic charities known to support bin Laden and his terrorist organization.

Being from Fla I know Bob Graham. I've often disagreed with him...but...I take him as a generally good man (if somewhat gullible in my estimation) with his heart in the right place if not his head.

What the nutcases will have to come to terms with is, is he just another jooo lackey, who is in on the frame up of innocent, benign, peaceful members of the Saudi royal family.

It's a family affair ;-)

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 07:39 | 2219410 natty light
natty light's picture

Hey man

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:54 | 2217756 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

So those veteran commercial airline pilots who reproduced the flight paths in a commercial flight simulator and, after many many trials, could not hit an aircraft carrier sized-target ... they're all liars? The finest pilots in the world couldn't pull it off because those aircraft  under human piloting can't pull it off, if it is even physically possible at all - which remains doubtful.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:17 | 2217893 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

so explain how they manage to hit a runway.

Finest pilots in the world? Do me a favour...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:21 | 2217928 zenbones
zenbones's picture

It's called slowing down the plane so you're not going 580 mph.  Do you drive 70 mph when you pull into your driveway?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:29 | 2217990 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Personally I tend to slide it in sideways but that's beside the point. So are you saying that they should, if they are actually commercial pilots, be able to hit an aircraft carrier sized thing even if they don't intend to land on it?

Perhaps we agree on something...

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:27 | 2220125 delbutler
delbutler's picture

Why is then also then that in the case of the Pentagon hit, which occured at ground level where the start of the 16ft (fit a plane in it?) hole was, 30 year veteran piolts have said on record it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to fly a plane at the speed they were doing (450 mph) so close to the ground, not to mention that the video which was released by the governemnt themselves from the heliport camera showing 5 frames of footage showed no plane at all ???

Oh yeah, that's right, becasuse according to the 9/11 Commission report, the plane hit in between the frame shots. Do me a favor and have a day off from lying......

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:26 | 2217963 Chappy
Chappy's picture

I agree with you 100% HArley.  Not sure why you are getting so many negatives.  I am losing a lot of respect for ZH posters after this garbage thread.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:33 | 2218008 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

A lot of the old one's have gone, unfortunately. Now you just get a lot of whacko conspiracists who don't seem to have thought things through too much...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:52 | 2218086 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

Well then, good thing you both are here to set us straight! LOL.

But just wondering, something seems odd, don't you have new program to up arrow yourself many times. Oh wait, I remember now, you're getting that program soon.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 11:02 | 2219548 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture


Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:43 | 2218936 Jim_Rockford
Jim_Rockford's picture

The Japanese were pretty good at hitting aircraft carrier sized targets without slowing down.  Unless that stuff about Kamikaze was all a myth/false flag.

On another note, overheard:

Steve Ratner:  "It's 2 AM and my wife and her car are missing.  Were's my wife?"

Scarborough:  “I think it may fall a little bit into the category of things you just kind of don’t want to know.”

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:18 | 2219095 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

"Somebody call the Cops!!" -- Jim Rockford

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:19 | 2218176 Coast Watcher
Coast Watcher's picture

All the talk about hidden explosives and thermite and whatnot really raises my admiration for the guys who planted them. After watching those two buildings collapse maybe 100 times, I always astonished that they managed to plant the explosives exactly where the two aircraft hit, because in both cases, the collapses start at the damaged floors. Now that's precision.

BTW, for the guy who keeps nattering about steel beams rated at 2500 degrees melting in a 1200 degree fire -- they didn't have to melt, asshole. All they had to do was soften enough that they couldn't support the weight of the floors above them.

As for who and how the aircraft were flown into the towers, I have no idea. I don't believe the official story that it was done by noobs with a few hours of flight training, but Saudi involvement could very easily mean they had a lot more than just a few hours of flight time. If you're really into conspiracy, you can always cite Mike Ruppert, who claims Dick Cheney did it by remote control of the aircrafts' autopilot systems from a Secret Service command post.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:49 | 2218709 Debt-Is-Not-Money
Debt-Is-Not-Money's picture

"BTW, for the guy who keeps nattering about steel beams rated at 2500 degrees melting in a 1200 degree fire -- they didn't have to melt, asshole."

Well, I guess that I'm an asshole too. If the beams were softened causing the collapse there would have been a twisted mound of spaghetti left at the bottom. But that didn't happen because the beams were CUT. Also, your THEORY would require the beams be softened for the entire height of the building- didn't happen, dude. I doubt the flame temperature even reached 1200 DegF due to the massive amount of incomplete combustion as evidenced by the large amount of black smoke (unburned fuel). This removed a large amount of heat from the combustion zone. These fires were far from stoichiometric combustion.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:21 | 2218768 Coast Watcher
Coast Watcher's picture

Twisted mound of spaghetti? The Twin Towers were unique designs -- all the load-bearing columns were in the central core of the buildings, with the floors suspended off them. They weren't the traditional steel box and beam structure used by most skyscrapers up to that point. Once the heat had softened the central supports at the impact points, the weight of the floors above collapsed them, sending all that weight straight down the length of the buildings. Those steel bams you saw weren't cut -- they were broken. Look at it this way -- stand a chocolate bar on end and apply heat to the middle while pressing on the top. It doesn't take much to collapse the bar in the middle.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:42 | 2218813 comrade pravda
comrade pravda's picture

Oh my gosh, a poster comparing a skyscraper to a bar of chocolate.

Three skyscrapers have collapsed as a result of "fire".  Surprise, all three collapsed on 9/11.

The buildings were blown up.  Dick Cheney, you are a murdering asshole.  George W. Bush, you are fucking coward.


Sat, 03/03/2012 - 11:12 | 2219556 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

looks like two of them fell down because one of them fell down...

and that one was blown up by two aeroplanes...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:11 | 2218868 Debt-Is-Not-Money
Debt-Is-Not-Money's picture

And you've got the balls to call other much more knowledgeable posters assholes when you obviously don't have a clue?

The central core consisted of HUGE I-beams (48 total?) and you assert that they collapsed at the point of impact. If so, there would have been very long lengths of I-beam for above and below the impact points. There is no evidence for this, but there were photos that showed much shorter lengths that were obviously cut. These were carted off ASAP and sent overseas to be melted down to destroy the evidence.This would have slowed down the collapse to below free-fall velocity which didn't happen.

This was a huge crime scene yet literally NO physical evidence was bagged & tagged- WTF?

BTW, building #7 WAS steel box and beam- what's your THEORY for it's collapse?

Have you cashed your latest MOSSAD check yet?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:00 | 2221581 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

These days I'm learning to smell out Hasbara trolls very quickly. Had building 7 been a stand alone event and it was ignored and dismissed the way it has been by media and government over the years, there would have been a revolution in the USA years ago. How can a country be so brain-dead?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 19:58 | 2222747 Debt-Is-Not-Money
Debt-Is-Not-Money's picture

The Fed Govt took over the local school systems decades ago, minimized the hard sciences (physics, chemistry etc.), instituted political correctness, removed discipline from the classroom and the home, and teach how to put condoms on bananas. 'Nuff said?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:15 | 2218991 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

I'm glad they collected and kept all the evidence, like they're supposed to, so you could settle this. And how again did they make this heat jump to number 7? 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 11:07 | 2219550 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

But that didn't happen because the beams were CUT. Also, - Let me guess, someone just sneaked in while no one was watching with a big pair of bolt cutters and just snipped them off.


Surely, one of the survivors must have heard something...

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 13:43 | 2219772 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

They were cut with thermite, jackass, which is what the physical evidence collected around the crime scene actually suggests. But you wouldn't know that because you're busy being a disingenuous fucktard.

I guess if TV told you Lee Harvey Bin Laden had cut the I-beams with a 40 foot chainsaw you'd believe that too.

And as for nobody watching? Securacom, twat.

That's it. No more time wasted debunking fucktards for me.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 14:27 | 2219870 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Let me guess, you believe in fairies too. Prick.


Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:33 | 2220139 delbutler
delbutler's picture

Oh this old chestnut again. If that was the case of the beams just melting enough for collapse to start, it would have been assymetric in nature. For the collapse to occur as it did, all the beams involved would have had to have failed at exactly the same time, on every floor on the way down. Also, the fllors above would have only pancaked the same amount of floors below the hit as above (15 fllors above would pancaked 15 floors below then stop). 

Go read about the mere 15000 Archtects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth who know a fuckload more about this stuff then you.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:04 | 2218307 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

It's not a garbage thread. 9/11 stinks to heaven high. Same as 7/12. At a minimum, Bush regime had foreknowledge, and let the attacks go ahead because it suited both Zionist and petrodollar Mid East interventionist purposes. About 40 hours before the hits, NPR - which I used to listen to in those bygone days - broke into regular coverage with a bulletin quoting a "government source" to the effect that a "major terrorist event" on US soil was expected "in a matter of days". IOTW, someone involved in the plot got nervous and ratted it out. Much as Sec of St. Cordell Hull, on evening of 6 Dec '41,  got together with some of his journalist drinking buddies in a DC bar and told them, "Tomorrow AM. Game on. Write what you want...".

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 11:10 | 2219554 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

It suited the IRS.

And 3,000 dead was a small price to pay to shut down the entire offshore investment industry and to stop Saddam from starting his gold dinar currency.

It had nothing to do with jews...

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:38 | 2219528 CH1
CH1's picture

I am losing a lot of respect for ZH posters after this garbage thread.

Please remember, there are paid trolls who hang out here. The jump all over anything controversial, to disburse our energy. Their favorite ace in the hole is to scream Jew, It pulls people right away from whatever they were thinking about.

After having blown their energy on a pretend anti-Semite (or...), they have no more for anything else, and any threat of the Fed-Political complex being actively opposed drops way down.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:42 | 2218065 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

kamakaze pilots hit aircraft carrier sized-targets like ducks in a pond.  While being shot at.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:49 | 2218085 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

1945 Kamikaze Hitting Carriers!!!

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:56 | 2218286 livid levity
livid levity's picture

And a Zero is akin to a jet airliner?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:04 | 2218124 reload
reload's picture

Smaller, infinitely more manoeuvrable aircraft-and very few hit their targets even when unscathed by flak.

I have 1200hrs plus in small single engined aircraft and own a single seat aerobatic competition machine. Could I land a 737? No. Could I hit a building in one at cruise speed? No, absolutely not.

How can I be sure? Because I tried on a full sized aircrews training simulator.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:12 | 2218156 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

How can I be sure? Because I tried on a simulator.  Lord, bring on WWIII so we can weed out the chaff!!

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:30 | 2219113 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Are you telling us jet speed and airliner size don't matter?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 18:53 | 2220400 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Nope - just the size of the lie.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:31 | 2218224 Seer
Seer's picture

Incomplete comparison.

I'd venture to say that this "Kamakaze" reference harkens back to the days of its origins, and that at THAT time those pilots were aiming STRAIGHT at the target from a long ways back, not trying to stunt it up with high-G-force maneuvers.

With the exception of flight 93 (which we really know NOTHING about), all planes had to undertake difficult maneuvers.  Why would inexperienced pilots add in such complexities if it meant possible failure of objective?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:43 | 2218255 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

So who flew the planes?  Sully?, Some sophisticated targeting system?  Were the pilots screaming at ground control " I lost control of this bitch?"  Some people especially the younger brood are scary stupid.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:46 | 2218077 greased up deaf guy
greased up deaf guy's picture

are you suggesting the deck of an aircraft carrier is the same size as an airport runway? lol

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:49 | 2219536 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

The bit they touch down on is a lot smaller than a carrier deck, LOL...

a lot smaller. Yet most times they seem to manage to hit it. LOL.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:06 | 2218464 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



so explain how they manage to hit a runway.

Simple you moron, they do it at 180 knots not 500 knots.

180 knots is standard final approach speed until outer marker when they go to landing configuration (drop flaps, landing gear, etc) and reduce to 160 knots for landing.

Plus they're being radio-guided to the runway by ILS localizer (lateral) and glideslope (vertical).  It's how they come right down to the end of the runway perfectly aligned even through low clouds and fog.  They sit back and let ILS guide the plane down to the runway, then they take over at middle marker, disengage autopilot, and land it manually.

No fucking way even the best commercial pilot could make a hard 90+ degree turn and hit one of those towers at 500 knots.

And like someone above said, NO HIJACK CALL from ANY of those planes.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 14:49 | 2219896 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

It was a rhetorical question dick head.

'No fucking way even the best commercial pilot could make a hard 90+ degree turn and hit one of those towers at 500 knots.' Well somebody did didn't they? and not only that they managed to hit the same place all the 'thermite' charges had supposedly been set.

Fucking magic for a bunch of rag heads that can obviously fly aircraft better than the best American commercial pilots. Do me a favour.

At what point do you whacko's stop making this shit up?


Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:08 | 2218322 jwoop66
jwoop66's picture

I have a private pilot license and have only flown small planes.  If anybody reading this wants a good idea of what it is like to fly a small plane,  get even a 15 year old version of microsoft flight simulator.  No you are not actually flying, but the controls and visuals are very lifelike.   An airplane in the sky is very fucking easy to control in perfect weather conditions. Aiming for the runway is pretty easy - landing is a challenge in real life more due to the vertical component (cutting speed and flairing at the right time etc).  Hitting the control tower (in perfect weather like on 9/11/01) would be pretty easy to do.  

It it the same with a big plane?   Can't speak from experience, but they would have been aiming at a large, highly visible vertical target in ideal weather conditions without any concern other than hitting their target. 

Pilots I spoke with just a few short years earlier were skeptical about fly by wire systems and not having any direct control of the airplane, so the unions (pilots;  whoever)  insisted they have the ability for direct control of flight systems.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:19 | 2218506 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

I "flew" a real flight simulator (like one of these at an airline academy when I was 16 and put the nose of a 747 through the tower at LAX on the first try.  It was a piece of cake. 

But I still think 9-11 was an inside job.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:04 | 2217830 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

False Flag? That's right asshole! USS Liberty, Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor, etc., etc. etc. then 9/11

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:15 | 2217880 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

"Remember the Main"....we have a long history of this crap....and it always works.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:25 | 2217949 zenbones
zenbones's picture

Soon it will be "Remember the Enterprise!"

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:38 | 2217999 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

We'll all be able to remember the 'Enterprise', as a coral reef...

along with the Lincoln, Nimitz etc etc...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:20 | 2217913 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture


Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:32 | 2218001 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

you forgot the recent financial crash false flag attack

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:37 | 2218034 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Yeah, let's not forget that one eh, just in case it was real...

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:16 | 2218165 ali-ali-al-qomfri
ali-ali-al-qomfri's picture

Totally, I mean the airlines have dozens of 757’s, and the fact that the nose contains highly sensitive radar/com/nav equipment that is able to penetrate reinforced concrete walls, not 1 but 5, and a couple of concrete pillars, dang, we could save millions on the bunker busters and just schedule commercial airliners, like the ‘757 bunker buster’ kind.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 06:26 | 2219388 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

   "False flag? Do us all a favour and shut the fuck up."


Now why would that do "us all" a favour? 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:51 | 2217742 mophead
mophead's picture

This is a lame piece of disinformation. Thank you Mr. Krieger, but no thanks. The Saudi connection comes up every now and then and generally promoted by people who still believe Muslims or brown skinned people want to punish America.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:10 | 2217850 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

I don't find it disinformation.  I'd be happy to entertain a specific point of his that is disinformation.  Just because the Saudi's are/could be a part of it doesn't mean we are blaming just the hijackers.. The official story was a lie, that is the premise of his article... and I concur

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:32 | 2218005 Confused
Confused's picture

I think it makes perfect sense. The Saudis at the top of the pyramid of power are no different than the Americans, Germans, Russians, Israelis, French, Italians, etc, at the top of their respective pyramids. They are part of the elite. And I'm sure they all profited handsomely from it. At our expense of course, and the expense of everyone around the world, who are not the 1%.



Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:38 | 2218556 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

They ostensibly shorted our markets like crazy in the weeks leading up to 9/11 and Goldman happily accommodated them.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:52 | 2218954 Jim_Rockford
Jim_Rockford's picture

Oh shit, I feel a George Washington (the blogger idiot) refurb coming our way soon.  No doubt he is cutting and pasting away as we speak.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:12 | 2217862 Chappy
Chappy's picture

Structual steel loses about 80% of its strength at 1200F. So it idn't melt but it certainly got red hot and soft. 

And can the other poster provide evidence for pilots not being able to hit targets the size of aircraft carriers?  I find that hard to believe given how well pilots put planes down in the middle of runways on landings day in and day out.  

I used to have a lot more respect for posters on ZH until I read comments here.  Maybe you guys really are wacko conspiracy theorists.


Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:18 | 2217896 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

do yourself a favor and dont listen to the cartoon physics the media/government want you to believe in.

there is no way vertical steel columns fall in on themselves unless they are cut with nano-thermite.  plenty of which was found in the dust samples, but that evidence was suppressed.

here are highly respected architects and engineers telling you the truth

other highly credible people that say the govt story is bullshit


Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:09 | 2218141 EINSILVERGUY

You might want to go back and look at the structural architecture for the WTC towers. Most of the weight was carried on the edges not in the central part of the building. At the time this was a seelling point because it allowed for more open areas for the floor as opposed to columnar building

Northwestern,as did many independent  sources, did detailed studies on this

I agree that WT7 does not fit the conventional collapse of a building, but given the obvious impacts of large commerical jetliners hitting a building, WYC 1 and 2 are explainable




Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:01 | 2218298 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Utter Fucking Bullshit.

Use your own goddamn eyes!

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:05 | 2218308 Seer
Seer's picture

"but given the obvious impacts of large commerical jetliners hitting a building, WYC 1 and 2 are explainable"

OK, we're all ears...

Nothing obvious at all, not when you consider the amount of symmetry that was exhibited, symmetry that is NOT explainable by the "obvious."

Oh yeah, gravity... discounting everything else you STILL cannot account for the free-fall moments of the buildings, which occurred BELOW the points of impact.

In response to the "melting steel" theory, no, you would have found huge twisted beams if this were the case.  Again, when something "melts" it becomes pliable, it BENDS.  Further, where are the signs of TORN beams?  Plenty of pictures show CLEANLY severed beams.

Anyone know of any welders who were on site dismantling things?  Anyone get any pictures of folks cutting up beams?  Managed to haul away a lot of steel rather quickly.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:41 | 2218820 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

That picture was all I needed to understand that those buildings were "taken" down. I show it to everyone I can. Most folks cannot comprehend the absolute evil that runs this country.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:29 | 2219112 StychoKiller
Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:58 | 2219160 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

it cracks me up as the ex prosecutor. I never once had a trial with so many pieces of solid physical evidence and so many unbiased direct witnesses to impeach the other side.  it does however remind me of rape of a child by a tusted family member  It is so disgusting and disloyal that many continue to deny it despite facts staring them in the face  

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:21 | 2220112 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

this is what loyalty to institutions over individuals breeds - the individual always gets sacrificed for the "greater good" of the institution, the "unit" - be it as intimate as families, or religious groups, or government / nations - if "they" can get one to believe that the individual doesn't matter, that the institution is more important, one becomes subsumed to authority over. . .

it's the same principle at work here - if the mind(s) cannot bear the weight of the truth, and the subsequent changes the truth will require, then denial is at work, preserving the institution of lies.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 10:52 | 2221566 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

and the loyalty is scarier than the act itself

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:21 | 2218667 taxpayer102
taxpayer102's picture


1672 verified architectural and engineering professionals say the WTC Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all the characteristics of destruction by explosives.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:34 | 2218375 Sneeze
Sneeze's picture

Your an idiot. 

I can't speak to who flew/funded/ or sanctioned the Sept 11 attack.

But I am 100% sure that the energy and heat produced from the planes hitting the towers could have toppled them.  I am acutally surprised they lasted as long as they did after the impacts. 

Following wack job conspiracy theorists makes you just as much of a "sheeple" as anybody else.  Use your own brain instead of lecturing us about "highly respected architects and engineers" and linking to websites no practical or self respecting person would bother visiting. 

We have heard the "highly respected" term before.  It was used to describe IPCC scientists trying to bring politics into the science of climate. 

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 21:48 | 2218828 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

I'm 100% sure that you're a dumb-ass.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:40 | 2218930 Bartanist
Bartanist's picture

What data do you have to support your 100% assertion? It is so easy to be critical of others and be 100% sure, when one does not have to provide any proof or even logic. But would it not be convenient if this was true?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 12:41 | 2219670 toxic8
toxic8's picture

If you can't differentiate between "You're" and "your" then you probably are an idiot.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 01:09 | 2219205 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

people with "brains" realize they don't know everything and study both evidence and experts. What did your post do?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:37 | 2218384 Karl von Bahnhof
Karl von Bahnhof's picture

And Larry Silverstein "pull it" is a saudi royal....


Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:26 | 2217936 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Chappy, what would you say about this?:



According to the new New York Times/CBS News poll, only 16% of Americans think the government is telling the truth about 9/11 and the intelligence prior to the attacks:

"Do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?

Telling the truth 16%

Hiding something 53%

Mostly lying 28%

Not sure 3%"

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:28 | 2217982 Chappy
Chappy's picture

Well I do belive that poll.  Although I generraly think people are stupid so I am inclined to think the truth is the opposite of what they think.  But who is to say.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:56 | 2218016 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

So, if the poll was conducted properly, based on random scientific sampling methodology, regardless of your overall opinion of the collective intelligence (or lack thereof, in your opinion) of Americans, you'd at least agree that an overwhelming majority of Americans do not believe the official version of the events that day as told to them by their own government?

So what's the conspiracy again?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:35 | 2218023 vato poco
vato poco's picture

Horseshit, Chappy. Before you want to lecture us about steel melt points, first tell us how the massive fire at Madrid's Windsor Towers in 2005 fits with your theory. Built to a considerably lesser structural strength, burned like a freakin' roman candle for 24 hours; (it's on youtube, ace); and although chunks of it fell down, it still stood straight & tall when the fire was finally put out. How'd *that* happen, Sensei??

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 18:51 | 2218417 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Excellent point Vato...

And if i may add another building - if you guys can remember froma few years ago in Beijing, China - CCTV building....massive high rise engulfed in flames:

and the next day still standing:


Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:29 | 2217994 Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

The plane that "crashed" at Shanksville is back in service with AA, so what happened to the people on the plane , well they had to EXECUTE the plan some how. Just saying.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:34 | 2218018 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

had a friend doing construction running a dozer that day in plane

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 12:28 | 2219639 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

"no plane".


I expect not when you slam into the ground at a million MPH, you moron.



Sat, 03/03/2012 - 13:59 | 2219793 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Yeah, the plane just vaporized. Unlike every other plane crash that leaves a debris field for miles, twat.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 10:55 | 2221571 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

that might just be the worst post of this thread

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 06:09 | 2219383 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

So "United 93" is back in service with AA?

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 12:25 | 2219633 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

L O fucking L

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:40 | 2218051 aerojet
aerojet's picture

It's odd, but I go over and over some of these issues every once in awhile, or it comes up in a conversation.  If there was no plane that crashed in PA?  Who were the pasengers, aka, the heroes who brought it down?  Surely we could determine whether or not there was a plane given that the victims all had families.  How far do you think the conspiracy goes?  Were all the victims' families paid actors? I'm willing to believe the PA plane was shot down--the coverup on that part of the story is clear, and the propaganda about the "heroes" is also quite obvious.  But there really was a plane that was hijacked, right?  Or are you saying it never even existed, it is a complete fabrication?

On to the Pentagon:  There are eyewitnesses who saw a plane hit the Pentagon.  I saw the damn hole in the side and through the top.  Something really big hit the Pentagon, okay?  What I think happened is that the original targert was either Congress or the White House, but they overshot--because it is really damn hard to crash a big plane into a specific target such as the White House.  They missed, and so they crossed the river, came back around, and nailed the bigger target.

I can't speak to WTC 7 or any of that. 

I figure that one way or another, people from the US were somehow involved in the plot.  It was some kind of intelligence operation.  Maybe it's an intel op that went badly wrong.



Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:34 | 2218233 I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

I've always surmised that the plane was accidentally shot down over Shanksville (possibly by an air force pilot with an itchy trigger finger), thereby royally screwing up the pretense for the collapse of WTC7. It's funny, you always hear the talking heads claiming that plane was headed for DC to hit the White House (with no proof, just seems to not want to say it was possibly headed to NYC), but I think its true target was WTC7. Considering what that building housed (SEC criminal investivation/Enron files, Secret Service, ect) it was coming down, no matter that they didn't have a plane to blame it on. Controlled demolition turns building to dust - it is blamed it on some burning couches - the sheep bleat in unison - the New World Order pops a bottle of Dom to celebrate.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:04 | 2221585 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

"something really big hit the pentagon"...but the plane is a lot bigger, has a thing called wings, and two things called engines that do not get destroyed, and cannot keep the lawn pristine like a missle can, and does not make the government seize all video immediately and never release it etc etc etc

The pentagon has (of course) an amazing defense system and the government (of course) had a lot of forewarning that it was heading in that direction. There was direct testimony in the 911 hearings: "do the orders still stand Mr. Vice President?"

So now what?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:07 | 2218130 DFCtomm
DFCtomm's picture

"the sheep will continue thinking that a few dudes who couldnt fly cessnas flew large boeing 757s at high rates of speed into precision targets,"



And so will people with commerical pilots licenses. Mircrosoft flight simulator could probably teach you all you need to know to fly straight and level. Hell, in some ways the Cesna is harder to fly.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:34 | 2218229 reload
reload's picture

Taking control of an airliner by force, switching off the flight director and autopilot and having the aircraft in manual mode at cruise speed requires some serious handling skills. You will not learn them on MS!

Most commercial flights land without the pilot touching the controls. Google 'autoland' and 'ILS' most airlines forbid their crews from overriding the automatics without specific permission.

I am not saying the modern airliner can not be hand flown, they can- but because they are not designed to be it takes a lot of experience. Look up the pilot who ditched in the Hudson river after a bird strike. He was an old timer, the real deal, the folks on that flight were lucky. A kid fresh from flight school would have produced a far less happy outcome.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:55 | 2218284 DFCtomm
DFCtomm's picture

The big carriers are union, so flights are based on seniority and the bigger planes pay more, so no kids right out of school on these planes. I agree it's hard to land one of those big guys, so it's lucky they had no intention of landing it.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:22 | 2218188 Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

Sorry dude. Plane that hit Pentagon was not invisible. It was witnessed, including a friend of mine who was on duty in the national cemetery directly across the road from point of impact.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:50 | 2218272 jwoop66
jwoop66's picture

Not disputing everything you wrote, but over thanksgiving weekend 2001(two months after 9/11) I was close to DC visiting relatives.   I and my ex decided to see if we could drive by and see the Pentagon damage.  We didn't have a detailed map, but knew we were in the right vicinity and next thing we knew we were in the parking lot of the Pentagon.    Jersey barriers around the building and one or two visible mechanized army vehicles, but aside from that - NO SECURITY - we were in the fucking parking lot of the building!   That surprised me at the time.  We drove around a bit and left without incident.   I could have thrown a rock at the building!   

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:20 | 2218507 Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

That is interesting.  I lived in a condo bldg. with a fine view of the burned-out side of the Pentagon, perhaps 1.5 miles away.  I saw it burn, and a regular at a coffee shop I frequented died there.  Anyway, my recollection at that time, and I drive by the Pentagon all the time to this day, was that the military had large manned guns pointed directly at traffic passing the Pentagon 24/7, and security regularly pulled over trucks to have a look.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 00:09 | 2219083 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

I've worked with steel all my life. If you can show me how to burn through a 17 inch steel I beam with a kerosene flame, I will buy you a new car.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 11:40 | 2219583 el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo's picture

"Look, I will be the first to say I have no idea what really happened on that day, but I can tell you one thing.  I am 100% convinced that it wasn’t 19 cave dwelling Al Qaeda members who hate us for our “freedoms.”  I can also tell you that two planes didn’t take down three buildings. "

And what does that brilliant realiztion years after the fact  have to do with whether the Saudi government was involved or not?  Very weak segue.  It simply raises the question of what really did bring down WTC 7, and when you figure that one out, it raises the question of whether the same shit brought down WTC 1 and 2, and the planes were just a diversion for the scientifically challeneged.  I can see Rumsfeld and Cheney laughing together, saying, "They are soooo stupid - of course they'll buy it."

And you think you will ever get anything meaningful about a false flag operation out of the NY Times?  Give me a break.  I save all the Judith Miller clippings ghost written by Darth Cheney.

This Saudi shit is just a salamander operation.  When a salamader is being chased by a predator, it lets him have a piece of tail so the animal itself can escape.  Don't buy it! 

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:20 | 2220241 passwordis
passwordis's picture

saudi's did 9/11? more disinfo. rogue elements of the USSA government in conjunction with the mossad carried out 9/11.


BINGO!  I would only clarify that it was an Israeli attack which used CIA assets not a CIA attack which used mossad assets.

  It was not an inside job. It was an Israeli attack on America.  The rogue element within the American government were Israeli assets.  They must be getting scared if they feel the need to float the Saudis done it, theory.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:19 | 2217904 Crab Cake
Crab Cake's picture

You idiot, conspiracy is a crime of the highest order, and it never was just for crack pots. I love it, it's so blatant now it's hitting you in the face, and you're like, "Oh that's what they were talking about, I guess their not idiots." Let us get this straight, the US has near fully transitioned to Corporatism (fascism), and the ones that have initiated this metamorphose used the last decade to do it behind a smokescreen of lies starting on 911, and thats the fact jack. Dont worry Ill hold while you finish crawling down the DABDA ladder.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 20:16 | 2218660 NuckingFuts
NuckingFuts's picture

Well done. +1

I see nobody has replied to disagree with you.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 03:21 | 2219311 The Navigator
The Navigator's picture

@ MarkMotive

Thanks for that link

It was a very objective and knowledgable discussion by an informed Phd in History from Switzerland (also, nice to hear a foreigners perspective) that had no dog in the fight - a real eye-opening/thought-provoking discussion.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 06:43 | 2219391 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

Yes. I learned another fact from it. Testimony from the vice-prez office:

-Unidentified young man to Vice President Cheney: the plane is 50 km out

-Cheney: ok

-Unidentified young man to Cheney: the plane is 30 km out

-Unidentified young man to Cheney: the plane is 10 km out. Do the orders still stand?

-Cheney, whipping around: " of course they still stand! They have not been countermanded."

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:09 | 2217520 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

I wish I could upvote you for linking it and downvote 600 times what a fuck head that guy is.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:11 | 2217541 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

the Vatican is behind 911

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:21 | 2217582 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Holy Shit!

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!