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Mike Krieger On Why He Supports Ron Paul

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Submitted by Mike Krieger of KAM LP

Why I Support Ron Paul

Now consider that an ideologue is not necessarily a fanatic.  What he does is adjust most of his ideas to circumstances, without recognizing the opportunism latent in such ideological adjustments.  The opportunism of a great statesman, on the other hand, rests on principles.  What John Morley once wrote about Edmund Burke may be applied to Churchill: “He changed his stand; but he never changed his ground.” Or what the aged Metternich once wrote: that an idea is like a fixed gun in a fortress, ready to fire and to hit error in one straight direction; but a principle is like a gun mounted on a fixed but revolving base, capable of firing at error in all directions. 

- John Lukacs in Churchill: Visionary, Statesman, Historian

Ron Paul

I hold a deeply held view of Ron Paul as an honorable, genuine and trustworthy American statesman.  In fact, I cannot really think of anyone else in the tepid cesspool of American politics today whom I could even remotely categorize as a statesman as opposed to a run of the mill politician (or ideologue as Mr. Lucas puts it).  Mr. Lucas moves on to explain that to an ideologue it is current ideas that matter, while to a statesman it is certain principles that matter.  He states that an ideologue’s view of the world and its inhabitants is political, while to a statesman it is historical.  These simple sentences are what I believe inherently separate Ron Paul at his very core  from everyone else currently running for president.  This is merely what separates the man’s character from the others.  This is reason enough to consider him, but not reason enough to vote for him.  His ideas about liberty, war and economics also separate him from the pack and it is his strongly held principles on these subjects that in my view make him the only one capable and with enough conviction to help heal this country’s wounds, get us back on the right and moral path and foster real change as opposed to a campaign slogan.

Why the Elite Establishment or TPTB Hate Ron Paul      

In case you have been asleep under a rock for the last few months let me fill you in.  The elite in this country that control all forms of mainstream communication in the United States as well as both fake political parties are having a panic attack in response to Ron Paul’s surging popularity.  There is a simple reason for this.  On the important issues, the issues that affect your freedom and economic future he does not tow the party line of TPTB.  As I have written about endlessly for almost five years now, the Federal Reserve is the mechanism of American empire and this institution’s policies are the primary reason the middle class in America is on the verge of being completely destroyed.  It is the mechanism for transferring wealth and power to a smaller and smaller faction of the population through persistent inflation.  As Keynes wrote: “Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose.” 

Remember, the Fed creates dollars out of thin air and then forces countries to accept this counterfeit, backed by nothing, and consistently devalued money for their resources.  While many people now understand this concept, what most U.S. citizens still do not seem to understand or want to accept is that it is not in the national interests of other countries to accept this certain to be vaporized currency for their hard produced goods.  Fortunately for us, there is a solution to that.  Support (or install via coup) if necessary despotic puppet regimes around the world to accept this monetary system.  Our Federal Reserve system and indeed our way of life is supported through the barrel of a gun pointed at every other “sovereign” nation on the planet.  If you step out of line you will be deemed a terrorist state and we will single you out and fight for sanctions on you and then if none of that makes you fall in line we will start bombing you.  We will say that you commit atrocities against your people and you probably do (although we were also probably your ally recently despite the atrocities).  Make no mistake about it.  Every country we every go after militarily relates to defending the Federal Reserve system.  Since oil being priced in dollars is the key to the system, we are always on the verge of invading oil producing countries that we do not already have under puppet control.  Israel is merely another U.S. colony.  We defend it so vociferously not because of the Jewish lobby but because they are a strategic asset in the oil rich Middle East that we use to defend the Federal Reserve system and the American empire.     

If you Attack the Federal Reserve you are Racist, Anti-Semitic and Possibly a Terrorist 

Let me fill you in on a little pattern that I have noticed.  In American politics you are allowed to criticize pretty much anything except the Federal Reserve system.  This is the third rail of American politics.  Why?  Because this is by far and away the most important issue on planet earth.  Republicans will run around yelling about cutting back on government and preserving “freedom” but they NEVER EVER attack the Federal Reserve.  The only time we have ever seen this in recent memory was this political season in the Republican primary and that is only because opportunists like Rick Perry saw it was a popular issue.  Ron Paul on the other hand means business when it comes to the Fed.  He has been criticizing it for decades and it is not just talking points.  He is the only one out there that actually understands how the monetary system works and how it is destroying this nation.

So isn’t it interesting that whenever a popular movement with anti-Fed elements comes out it is not attacked based on the ideas, but it is immediately categorized as racists or anti-Semitic.  Why?  Because TPTB want to be able to turn people off as quickly as possible.  They know that if people actually do a little research they will see the truth.  This is why the tea party was branded that way immediately by the mainstream media fake left.  This is also why Ron Paul is being attacked the same way.  They do not want to talk about the substance of ant-Fed arguments.  They want the whole thing to disappear as quickly as possible. 

What also has been very interesting to see is how the mainstream media fake right went after OWS.  OWS is a huge deal in American history because it was when elements on the other side of the political spectrum really started to attack the Fed and banking system for the first time.  Sure many, many of the ideals behind the tea parry and OWS are totally different, but what is far more important and dangerous to TPTB are the similarities.  Both are against bank bailouts and have anti-Federal Reserve elements.  Thus, the media had to attack them as well.  They used the “lazy, ignorant, imbecile meme” for these guys. 

Ok, so now we have their entire playbook. Any popular movement is not to be listened to.  If it comes from the heartland it is to be categorized as being dominated by “racists, anti-Semites and survivalists.”  If it emerges from the urban areas on the coasts it is to be deemed as being dominated by “ lazy, unemployed, morons who are probably high on drugs and want free stuff.”  Most important to TPTB is that these two groups remain separated and the goal is to create as much animosity between them as possible so they never realize they agree on the key issues.  Divide and conquer is being used on American citizens in America.  This tells me one thing.  The criminals in charge on Wall Street and Washington D.C. are afraid.  Very afraid.     

I am Jewish and I Support Ron Paul…There are MANY of us

When I saw this the other day, where Joe Scarborough basically labeled Ron Paul supporters as anti-Semitic I became infuriated.  First of all, I have been a Ron Paul supporter for years and I am well connected to many of his key supporters all over the country.  I think I might have an idea as to whether they are anti-Semitic or not and they are certainly not.  Meanwhile Scarborough hasn’t been in the Ron Paul circles but yet…“On Morning Joe this morning Joe Scarborough revealed that he's always heard from friend who support Paul that there is an underlying strain of anti-semitism to Paul events, which some in the past have tied to Paul's anti-Wall Street, anti-Fed views.”  Huh?  This is journalism?  Some anonymous friend says Ron Paul rallies are anti-Semitic?  Who is this friend and why doesn’t he come out publicly?  This is like a middle school rumor-mill. Sadly, that is what the mainstream media has devolved to nowadays.   

When I saw this clip I felt the need to respond.  These sorts of tactics are going to backfire big time.  It got me so riled up it inspired me to write this email as well as to make the decision to dedicate much more of my time this year to politics rather than the markets.  2012 is a year to fight these guys in that realm and I plan on being relentless.  This clip was an insult to me as someone who is Jewish and to all of those Jews I know personally that support Mr. Paul.  What is so ironic about this whole anti-Semitic argument is that the guy that is seen as the most influential figure in Austrian economics (the economic perspective that Ron Paul adheres to) is Lugwig Von Mises.  Guess what?  He was Jewish.  How about Murray Rothbard, the economist that  popularized Austrian economics in the last couple of decades?  Also Jewish.  Then during Ron’s 2008 run his economic advisor was Peter Schiff.  Another Jew.  For an anti-Semite this guy sure surrounds himself with a lot of Jews.  To those that hear something on mainstream media or read one of the newsletters and become turned off I ask one thing.  Read his books.  They are short.  If you still feel turned off at least it is on the actual issues and then I can live with that conclusion.

Ron Paul’s Foreign Policy Views are “Dangerous.”  Dangerous to Who?

There is one issue where the RINOs (Republicans in Name Only) will actually engage Ron Paul on the issues and that is foreign policy.  They try to portray him as an “isolationist” but in reality he is Anti-Empire.  He believes in strong national defense he just doesn’t believe in constant preemptive war.  He also points out that it is hypocritical to support one totalitarian regime while bombing another.  For these rational views he is attacked vehemently by the likes of Gingrich.  The dirty little secret however is that some of Ron Paul’s strongest support emanates from the U.S. military.  This makes sense.  At the end of the day, most of these war mongers in both the Republican and Democrat party have never fought in a war and they know their kids would never be sent overseas to die, yet are such tough guys and war mongers with OTHER PEOPLE’S KIDS.

The fact that the military is strongly supportive of Ron Paul’s foreign policy is so terrifying to the elite cowards in this nation that CNN resorted to outright censorship the other day. When this active duty soldier who has been serving his country for the last ten years in war time started to discuss his criticism of American war mongering he was immediately cut off.  See this incredible clip here

Oh so you think this guy is a one off?  Nope.  Check this out.  The armed forces are Ron Paul’s three biggest supporters.  Look at who is backing Romney.  Wall Street has clearly made a bet on who its next puppet will be.

Why Ron Must Run Third Party

I support Ron’s attempt to get the Republican nomination even though I recognize that hell will freeze over before the Republican establishment allows him be chosen.  Nevertheless, it is a smart move as he is exposing the lack of ideas amongst the Republican field and exposing them as the empty suits that they are.  Other than him, they will all be puppets of TPTB just like Obama.  I think that simply his running is changing the debate and converting more people to his perspective.   

So the big question is what should he do after the Republicans choose their new Wall Street puppet Romney.  In my opinion, he must run as a third party candidate.  No matter what he will not be returning to Congress so this is really his last shot and I actually think he can win as a third party candidate.  Just imagine a debate between Romney, Obama and Paul.  How will they respond to Paul’s strong defense of civil liberties.  Or his attacks on the Federal Reserve system.  Or his anti-preemptive war stance?  They can’t and it will expose Romney and Obama to be the same guy on the important issues at play today.  They will be shown once and for all as the empty suits that they are.  Even if he doesn’t win, turning this whole thing around will not happen overnight.  It is a process and him running as a third party candidate will further expose the two party system as the sham that it is and further accelerate the demise of both parties.  In fact, I already think that by 2016 the Democratic party will be essentially a shadow of its former self and the Republicans may be as well if they continue on the path they are on much longer.  To paraphrase Shakespeare.  The tides in the affairs of men are changing.  Neither political party can comprehend it.  

Finally, let’s remember that it is both bought and paid for parties that hate Ron Paul and that is because he is the only genuine threat to the establishment.  As soon as this man topped the polls in Iowa the mainstream media went into total freak out mode.  Watch this clip that shows how both the fake right and fake left media portrayed the Iowa caucus in 2008 and now 2012.

Finally, Jon Stewart several months ago joked about how the media systematically ignores Ron Paul.

Welcome Aboard    

In conclusion, I want to welcome the hundreds of new people on my email list.  Those that are joining come from all over planet earth, in every field imaginable and I believe represent key players in helping to create a new and better world.  So welcome all of you to the list and feel free to forward this and every other email I write to as many people as possible.  We have a moment right here and right now.  Let’s do some good.

Peace and wisdom,


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Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:34 | 2036682 malalingua
malalingua's picture

Ron Paul has my support, money and vote.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:41 | 2036715 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

I posted below, but want to make sure the intelligent minds of ZH are paying close attention to Justin Amash (R-MI) to fill the void left by RP, in the house. He has a nearly identical voting record to Dr. Paul and is our next keeper of liberty.


Ron Paul 2012. Justin Amash 2020.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:48 | 2036729 Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

Meanwhile, US Troops being deployed to Israel....

h/t Max Keiser


Ohhhh say can you see, by the dawn's early light......

Don't forget those squat thrusts and push ups!  Proper form ladies.  Proper form....


Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:48 | 2036747 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Who is honorable anymore?

Ya’ll seen this (below)? Whew!!! (the game just changed (at least, from my perspective, anyway ;-) )…

The Truth EXPOSED Full Video.flv

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 14:37 | 2040076 widget
widget's picture

Whacky! Some comparisons where convincing but other where not (maybe a closer inspection of more video material for each person would have made a difference).

Scary stuff. If the truth movement profiles like Adam Kokesh and the raw foods people are involved that is pretty disturbing. I did find the police brutality during OWS a bit odd and un-natural since I just don't think police in a public area would be that stupid.


It certainly make your head spin. Then again... if the mainstream media reporters are all paid off actors - why wouldn't the people they inverview be also?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:54 | 2036776 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture


Goyim, goyim, please deploy em,

fight our wars, be our whores,

we are the learned elders of Zion!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:38 | 2036979 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

Jews for Ron Paul! Good post from Krieger sending to wife's nervous parents.

How do we get on email list?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:56 | 2037125 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

You can look here, it's TFMetals (ZH's very own Turn Ferguson) interview with Mike.

I didn't want to be too direct and post too much.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 19:01 | 2037367 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

Great post Mike.. as usual.. And thank you very much for not allowing TPTB to brand lovers of freedom and insightful people as anti-semetic.  We really need the Jews of this country to stand up and call bull shit.. We know damn well the neo-cons and ultra left wingers aren't going to do it.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 19:13 | 2037394 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

I don't hate Jews because I think Israel was involved in 9/11, as I do not hate Christians et al because criminals in our own government were involved.


Worrying about ADL SPLC branding doesn't concern me. Israel was involved and people need to know it.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 19:34 | 2037446 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

I worry about it beause it is too easy to marginalize people that speak the truth.  Notice RP has not allowed them to do that to him.  TPTB are trying with all their might to brand him and it's just not sticking.. But when someone (like you) posts things with offensive tones, it makes it so easy to dismiss them regardless of how accurate their claim is.. In other words, it's counter productive.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:06 | 2037510 israhole
israhole's picture

Well, I don' worry about it.  Let the good Jews start getting with what's right, instead of the agenda of pro-Zionist, pro-Israel, pro-Jew at all and anybody's cost.   The ones that continue on with this approach are going down with the rest of us DUMB GOYIM.  

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:45 | 2037612 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

Ya.  They are marching us to WW3 and exponentially more death, but hey, let's not upset anybodies tender sensibilities.

Dr. Sabrosky (former Head of Studies at the Army War College) has been very outspoken on Israel's involvement, and he has Jewish ancestry.  Just because someone goes to temple instead of church makes no difference to me, I just want the illegal wars over with, and the responsible parties swinging from the gallows.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:37 | 2037592 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

I could care less if the truth has an "offensive tone".

I just had an argument with my idiot brother because he still subscribes to the zionist brainwashing "Israel is our greatest ally, God's chosen people blah blah.."

It just illustrates how sick our society has become, where speaking the truth discredits your argument.  If your wife was fucking your best friend, would you prefer to ignore the truth because it might end your marriage?

Only after confronting the truth can we have reconciliation, and begin the process of healing.  I see what you're saying about RP needing to avoid issues where the majority of the public is still completely ignorant, but it just makes me angry.

Perhaps if a serious candidate for president fielded a 9/11 question, and was lucid, honest, and cited all the evidence, he may ruin his campaign, but it would help plant the seed.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 21:10 | 2037644 akak
akak's picture

If Israel is "our greatest ally", then that statement presupposes that our relationship with them makes us stronger and more secure as a result; an alliance is supposed to be a two-way relationship, to the benefit of both parties. Yet I fail to see how the USA's ties to the state of Israel have ANY positive impact on our nation's security --- quite the opposite, in fact.  When does an "ally" become, in reality, a parasite?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 22:21 | 2037794 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

Just found this, was our greatest "ally" tasked with counting the Iowa Caucus votes?

The Israeli Defense Firm That Tallies The Iowa Caucus
By Christopher Bollyn

The Iowa caucus is only a few days away and the nation’s attention will be directed to the results, which signify the beginning of the U.S. presidential race. But does anyone watch who tallies the results of the Iowa caucus?

The Iowa caucus results were tallied in 2004 by a company that is headed by a man whose company was bought by Elron Electronics, the Israeli defense firm. I suspect that it will be the same this year. Don’t expect to see any grassroots political activists doing the tally in Iowa. The Israeli defense establishment takes care of that part of the American “democratic” election process.


In the summer of 2004, I first learned that a foreign and out-of-state company using Interactive Voice Response (IVR) technology tallied the Iowa caucus results.

The system used to tally the 2004 Iowa caucus results was provided by a company called Voxeo, which was apparently based in Orlando, Florida. (Yellow flag goes up in the mind of those familiar with Orlando and electronic vote fraud history

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 19:48 | 2037478 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

time to get all johovah witness on the sheep until they get it.....

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:16 | 2036911 The Heart
The Heart's picture

Good reporting.

Yes, the troops are going there to learn urban isreally-terrorists tactics & control of protestors and rather upset Americans when they get all unruly after a bank devaluation and or economic crash. They will be coming back to the US after they get the royal-rothschids-isaraelly-insane training and borganian-mindest-chip to arrest and kill free thinking americans or anyone else with brown skin now that they think they have a new NDAA law that sez they can do this.


...who profits in war and times of chaos daddy?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:17 | 2037200 tankster
tankster's picture

Is a misogynist/bigot the best we can do?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:21 | 2037225 tankster
tankster's picture

I'll bet he doesn't get Reggies vote

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:52 | 2036767 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Thanks, RTM.  There aren't that many good guys.  We should help them as and when we can.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:05 | 2036829 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Thanks. Amash has been the lone 'no' vote numerous times and is identical, idealogically.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:58 | 2037139 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

I think Gary Johnson is a good one, and Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich are both generally good but don't see the bigger picture although they can learn I'd guess.  Also, while people may laugh, Jesse Ventura, Navy Seal, Governor, Patriot, is one of the good guys and he's been speaking out for a long time now.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:11 | 2037177 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Don't be afraid to drop Gov Ventura's name on here.

He gets "it" and we get "it."

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 19:08 | 2037381 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

True.  I love your son incidentally although your good looks don't run in the family.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:59 | 2036800 malalingua
malalingua's picture

I like that he explains how he votes on his fb page too. Good guy!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:10 | 2036866 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Exactly, very open with his votes and explaining every bill.


We need to get behind him and help him to carry the torch!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:09 | 2036851 kito
kito's picture

@robomom, the next keeper of liberty cannot wait until 2020. if ron paul fails to procure the republican nomination, send your support to GARY JOHNSON, who just left the republican party to run under the libertarian party. as a former governor of new mexico, his nickname became governor veto, as he set records for vetoing bloated budgets.


Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:13 | 2036888 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Agreed, love Gary Johnson and taking nothing away from him.


Amash is a young, good looking kid that has a solid head on his shoulders that can attract many people as well.


The way I figure it, the more people that support liberty, the better!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:12 | 2037179 FMR Bankster
FMR Bankster's picture

Gary Johnson is a solid guy and doing the right thing going after the libertarian Party nomination. With RP in the Republican race there just wasn't enough air for both of them and RP had built up the movement in 2008. RP isn't going to go third party this year as he's built up the Taft wing of the party, we're electing like minded people, (including his son)and he wants to go to the convention with a block of votes. Since the convention is around Labor day no time for a third party bid. Johnson will give us a decent option to vote for.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 04:12 | 2038345 Socratic Dog
Socratic Dog's picture

Umm, why should I give a fuck that he's "good looking".

Leave that mindset for the sheeple, robo.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:46 | 2037071 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

did a very quick check on Gary Johnson - good for him leaving the Repubs and stating his platform, evolves the discourse.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:00 | 2037497 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

Would suck if he takes votes away from RP

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 21:49 | 2037734 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

in a perfect world, politicians compete for being the best representative of the people electing them - if he "takes votes" from RP, then maybe some tweeking of RP's platform is in order.

I realise this is doubtful, but in the end - the president is a figurehead, nothing more - RP is doing a good service by getting more people interested in such things as "End the Fed" - but he's got some beliefs that don't belong enshrined in laws.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 22:05 | 2037757 akak
akak's picture

... but he's got some beliefs that don't belong enshrined in laws.

And that is, in essence, what differs between the other, pro-status-quo, statist candidates and Ron Paul (or any good libertarian): his personal beliefs are NOT enshrined in law, because he recognizes that they are precisely that --- personal --- and do not belong in the political sphere.

Now then, were you talking about more than just the abortion question, or precisely what OTHER "beliefs" does Ron Paul hold that you believe he wants to enshrine in law?  And have you yet acknowledged that one can legitimately argue against abortion from a consistent pro-liberty position, taking the rights of the unborn child into account and not just those of the mother?  Until you can bring yourself, not necessarily to agree with, but to simply ACKNOWLEDGE that such an argument can logically be held, then you have absolutely no grounds on which to stand in criticizing the supposed hypocrisy of Ron Paul's abortion position.

Given your generally thoughtful, intelligent and insightful comments here, I find your insistence to continually divert any discussion of Ron Paul onto this relatively trivial wedge issue most annoying and distasteful.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 00:39 | 2038085 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Well said.  Can't green you, so I + you...  

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 00:49 | 2038104 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

we're not talking about "children" here akak, we're talking about zygotes.

All mammals go through the zygote stage of life. Mammalian zygotes eventually develop into a blastocyst, after which they are more generally termed an embryo, and then a fetus.

RPaul has been diligently pushing for a Constitutional Amendment that defines "life" as the moment the sperm enters the egg:

In 2005 and 2007, Paul introduced the Sanctity of Life Act, which would define human life as beginning from conception, removing abortion from federal jurisdiction and effectively negating Roe v. Wade. Paul has also introduced a Constitutional amendment with similar intent. Such laws would permit states to declare abortion to be murder and to outlaw new fetal stem cell research and some contraception and fertility treatments. Also in 2005 and 2007, Paul introduced the We the People Act, which would forbid all federal courts from adjudicating abortion as well as same-sex marriage, sexual practices, and government display of religious symbols. The Act would make federal decisions on those subjects nonbinding as state precedent, and would forbid federal courts from spending money to enforce their judgments.

including in cases of rape or incest.

And have you yet acknowledged that one can legitimately argue against abortion from a consistent pro-liberty position, taking the rights of the unborn child into account and not just those of the mother?

I genuinely look forward to reading such arguments, but only if they stay on point - as in, a Constitutional Amendment defining a zygote as a "human being" with full rights to life for which a female could be prosecuted for murder by the State she resides in should she not desire, for reasons of her own wisdom and choice, to carry the zygote to full term. 

I would also hope to be able to participate in the discussion - ie, that it might be here, in thread, so that we can all "discuss" from a "consistent pro-liberty position" how all these newborn children enforced by the State will be supported, by whom, whether by welfare through taxes, charity or abandonment - I'd like to see some logical answers to an emotive topic, believe it or not.  I'd like to know that others have at least considered how these precious zygotes lives might unfold given their enforced beginnings, and the genuine poverty already felt by many, and how desperate things will be going forward. I think there are more important things for a President to deal with right now than removing a female's right to make decisions about her own body.

As to my "continually diverting any discussion of Ron Paul" - how are my points "diverting" a "discussion" when so few will even answer them with anything other than a vote down?  how is a discussion diverted by a genuine question?  most of the posts "discussing" Paul are "fuck yeah!" posts, hardly "discussing."

I know you and others think I'm petulantly trolling - either against Paul or for "wimmin" - when in fact, I'm appalled that so few here "know" the full agenda of the man they're dead set on "electing."    I've seen this movie before   *nods*

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:34 | 2038167 akak
akak's picture

Cathartes, I think I should re-emphasize that I was NOT making the stereotypical "pro-life" argument, or indeed taking ANY side in the abortion debate at all in my prior posts --- merely pointing out that there is an undeniable logical consistency, and validity, in that argument, as indeed there is also in your own.  That is the conundrum that I cannot, personally, get past in this whole debate, and why I have never been able to take a side in it; both sides seem to me to have more or less equal merit.

As I stated in the past, no matter at what point one chooses to define "life", that choice seems to me rather if not almost entirely arbitrary.  In fact, choosing the points of fertilization, and of birth, both seem to me to be the least arbitrary points, with the former seeming, on first blush, to be the most logical of all.  Yet I also cannot get past the idea of a microscopic agglomeration of a few cells having all the same rights of you or me; as others have also pointed it, a zygote is in no way a sentient being.  But, for that matter, is a newborn infant a sentient being either?  The entire topic makes my head spin!

(What if we just defined "life" as existing, in the case of the fetus, at the moment at which brain activity is first detected?  That would be a medically verifiable instant, I presume, and is still far short of birth or, indeed, viability outside the womb.)

Again, I was not trying to be dismissive or confrontational with you, merely pointing out that the usual debate over abortion, with both sides talking past each other and refusing to address the other's arguments, serves no purpose whatsoever, and is tedious in the extreme.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 03:05 | 2038289 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

you know akak, it IS a tough subject, which is yet another reason I believe government has no place in making laws on the issue.  and I'm sorry, but particularly Christian men in government positions.

choosing the points of fertilization, and of birth, both seem to me to be the least arbitrary points, with the former seeming, on first blush, to be the most logical of all.

I gave this a lot of thought years ago, and, apart from deciding if it wasn't my situation, it wasn't my decision - I decided, for me, in general, that at the time a foetus could be viable, could exist outside the womb even with medical assistance, then it could be considered a "life." 

I also believe that if the State wants to make laws about the "right to life" then it needs to take responsibility for those laws and describe in legal terms exactly how this sacred life will be taken care of once it has been born from the womb.  no cop outs!  if you enforce "life" because it's "sacred" then you make provisions to keep that "sacred" life alive with support.  because that's something a woman might take into consideration - whether she can support a life, particularly if she's alone.

I really appreciate your spending time and thought on this, even if it was to just growl at me at first, heh - I wish this shit wasn't important, but so many "laws" are being passed right now that are shoving our faces in the reality of how fucked we are as humans, being - I can only imagine how the people of Iran, etc. are feeling as the game pieces are getting put in place, while amrkns watch their Bowl games, teevee, and shop the discount sales.  so few are awake that even arguing this topic is redundant. . . I'll most probably let it go after a while, because I know in my heart that even if Ron Paul is allowed to be "elected" a President only has the "power" he's allowed. . .

I have nothing against Paul, he's furthering the education of many on such things as the Federal Reserve, precious metals, etc. - but the Christian agenda, which his son is very big on as well, is the same as always - control over females, particularly their reproduction rights.  it's a centuries old story that most aren't even aware of, and many young people take for granted as a "given" even now.

bleuch!  I'm done, peace to your spinnin' head akak, take care!

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 03:19 | 2038306 akak
akak's picture

Thanks for the response, Cathartes, and I am sorry if I initially jumped out of the gate growling --- it can sometimes be rather jarring to hop from blasting a troll in one comment to responding to an intelligent, sincere poster in another.

I have actually spent a GREAT deal of time thinking about this topic over the years, and to be honest, I feel rather like a failure in never having come to any firm decision over it after all that time and thought invested in it.  The best conclusion I can arrive at is that, somehow, the whole debate is being improperly framed, with a possible false dichotomy being presented as the only conceivable (no pun intended) two solutions to the question.

The abortion question actually has a rather personal relevance to me, as my mother had an unusual double uterus that the doctors told her would almost certainly prevent her from ever becoming pregnant, or carrying a baby to anywhere close to full term if she did.  Well, after 10 years of trying she did become pregnant with me, but her doctors at one point tried to convince her that an abortion would be advisable for her own safety.  In the end, I was born over 2 1/2 months early (this in the early 1960s), with severe complications for my mother, and it was only as the result of a radical and never-before-tried experimental technique that I even survived my own first few weeks --- and even then just barely.  So whenever I hear abortion being discussed, I can never help but think "There but for the grace of God go I ....."

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 18:43 | 2040905 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

ha, no worries at all akak - I struggle with my *snark* voice every time I post here - it gets more exercise than my *calm argument* voice, by virtue of the majority of replies here often being for entertainment purposes only (which I'm down with, for the most part).  I've read, and enjoyed, your posts for ages, so I take everything in aggregate. . .

this post though, very rich with the storyline behind your thoughts, and I appreciate your sharing it, being personal to you. . . how could you not have a strong re-action to the subject?  and mixed thoughts, of course.

I'd like to make an observation:  your mother has/had a unique personal twist on the "every body is the same and can be judged accordingly" - in that her unique circumstances needed to be responded to on their own terms, not with cookie-cutter laws. . . your mother made space for you first in her heart/mind, and eventually her womb - it was her intention to give birth, and you are the fruits of her intention/desire. . . this means you were strongly wanted in her life, and despite anything that happened after, she chose to birth you - even when presented with alternatives by the medical profession.

this is my most important point - the unique circumstances of desire/choice, and the variables inherent in each human.  contrasting your life story with the possibility of mandatory infants, and the obvious psychological damage to the woman, passed to the infant, and then the culture. . .

we live in times where "choices" are being eroded daily - having the State enforce its choice is endgame.

again, really appreciate your sharing your story - your mother, your family - intentional love.  *smiles*

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 18:55 | 2040946 akak
akak's picture

Much thanks, Cathartes.

I very rarely share such personal information in anonymous online forums --- not sure entirely what prompted me to do so this time.  But I am glad that you read it, and appreciated the story.  It can be all too easy to metaphorically flip-off others in these forums, and forget that all these comments and faceless voices really do have real people behind them, with all their infinitely complex personalities, backgrounds and emotions.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 21:43 | 2041350 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

I almost missed this thread. Thank you both for a most interesting read. It may or may not interest you to know that I'm on Cathartes side on the issue of choice - I can't imagine a worse fate for a baby than being born as an unwanted burden by forcing a pregnant woman to full term as though she was nothing but a sow. That would be the imposition of the group on an individual on a level so personal, it defies all sense. Coversely, I am very glad akak's mother chose to oppose the will of the medical group at personal risk to have her bundle of joy. Both experiences, I can see are all about personal choice. Imo, the ability to defy the group on personal matters of one's body is a right that should be protected at all costs.


As for defining human life, that's another dillema I've thought about on sleepless nights, especially because of my personal stance on choice and my catholic upbringing. No doubt it will cause more sleepless nights, but for now, I think viability is a good reference point for considering the right to life of a foetus, with emphasis on the choice of an individual on a case by case basis. As for the good Dr.Paul, I don't have a single problem with his views because it would be impossible for him to be libertarian and impose anti-choice legislation as a federal law at the same time. I trust that gentleman to be true to his political convictions, over his personal ones.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 02:20 | 2038251 Chump
Chump's picture

A few points.

- Simply because you can name a stage of human development does not render a human in that stage non-human. An adult human's right to life is not more or less sacrosanct than an infant's, and an infant's is not more or less sacrosanct than a zygote's.  Part of being a mature adult, I would hope, is the ability to recognize that human life = human life, whether it is an adolescent or adult or what amounts in base minds to a blob of cells.

- There is not much need to answer your question of, "what about the children?" a negation of existing abortion laws would create.  Although their numbers have been declining, over half of all abortions are performed on white, middle class women who simply don't want to be inconvenienced by a baby, I presume in the same way they didn't want to be inconvenienced by taking approximately 11 seconds to unroll a condom on the cock of their "choice."  This point is vapid, however, as we live in an era where the mechanics of baby makin' are well understood by the thickest of the thick.  This idea that a life should be ended because someone was too lazy to take easy, incredibly simple measures literally makes me gag.

- Sort of a continuation of the last point: we don't kill people for convenience.  Let's allow that more children will be born into dire circumstances should abortion be outlawed.  And?  Are you shooting for new quotables?  "Tis better to be dismembered and sucked out of the womb than to ever have experienced life outside of it."  We put dogs out of their misery, not people, unless they choose to end their own lives.  Oh, that's illegal?  Funny, that.

It doesn't take a Constitutional Amendment to respect life, but it does take an over-reaching view of the power of the federal government to agree that Congress can legalize murder for the sake of convenience and "for the children, who would suffer if we let them live."

Thank you for alerting me to Dr. Paul's views on this subject.  It gives me yet another reason to vote for him.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 03:18 | 2038303 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

apt name Chump.

I'm glad you've got another reason to vote for your man, it's good to be convinced of your choices.  I completely disagree with your "arguments" of course, but that's a given, eh!

simply don't want to be inconvenienced by a baby, I presume in the same way they didn't want to be inconvenienced by taking approximately 11 seconds to unroll a condom on the cock of their "choice."

this observation is of course, hilarious, as the reason most cocks are UNcondomed is the MAN's reluctance to use 'em - you make men sound like blow up dolls firing fertile bullets that women need to suit up for - rather than sentient beings responsible for their fertility - is the responsibility for fucking solely a woman's?  guess so in your world.

all good tho' - those feckless white middle class women can donate their kids as cannon fodder - a time honoured tradition for nationstates.


Fri, 01/06/2012 - 05:55 | 2038540's picture

Each of us is responsible for our own actions. Killing kids for convenience's sake does not make a man a better man or a woman a better woman.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:41 | 2038809 Chump
Chump's picture

C'mon, this could've been a decent discussion.

Men don't want to wear condoms, women are apparently powerless to stop them in your world, therefore we should grant women the privilege to kill inconvenient babies?  Sorry, not a spec of logic or reason there, just a hateful view of men, women, and life in general.

Your most salient point now that you've abandoned the rest is that my chosen username is indeed apt.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 18:49 | 2040921 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

my reply to you was in an appropriate tone to your post - I've posted enough times over the past week or so, should you wish to get my stance on the subject - I'm not so very interested in repeating my points right now - but maybe you & Crockett can explore your opinions.

signed, hateful view.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:23 | 2038721 flattrader
flattrader's picture

>>>In 2005 and 2007, Paul introduced the Sanctity of Life Act,<<<

Libertarianism for less than 50% of the population.  Facism for the majority...that have wombs.

He is dangerous to personal freedom.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 09:54 | 2038869 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Nowhere near as dangerous as the Patriot Act or the NDDA are to personal freedom. 

Single issue voters are the useful idiots of the two party system.

With any two party or two choice limited option set, anyone who isn't chosing between the lesser of two evils isn't thinking, or can't see the situation for what it actually is.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:14 | 2038945 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Truly useful idiots ignore the BIG fact that the "libertarian" candidate desires to place more than 50% of the population under the thumb of state enforced pregnancy.

Statism is statism no matter how you define it...apparently you think the threat doesn't apply to you...yet.

He and his Christian Reconstructionist buddies have plans for this country...under the guise of freedom and liberty.

When facism comes to America...

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 10:46 | 2039080 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The "right to life" idiots are just as much tools of their masters as the dumb cunt voters.  But either you didn't read what I wrote carefully, or you are one well trained dog.  "State enforced pregnancy" is either a misnomer or a non-sequiter, unless somehow the State is going to become a party to the conception, and then prevent its termination.  If you are concerned about "protecting" the legal precedent set in Roe v. Wade, I would actually be much more concerned with the judicial than the legislative or executive branch, as the very notions of "privacy" and "ownership of one's own body" that serve as the basis of the Court's opinion have been nullified and revoked by subsequent legislation (incl. the Patriot Act, NDAA,& ObamaCare) - so all it takes one skilled law team and one rich "Christian Reconstructionist" footing their bill and you precious single issue is taken away from you regardless of the outcome of the election...  And neither Obama, nor his bitches- Kagan and Sotomayor, are going to move to shit can their recent Statist "body grab" if that is the choice they are cornered with behind the bench...  

So, like I said, it comes down to the lesser of two evils, anyone who can't clearly see the evil on both sides doesn't have their head screwed on right.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 11:29 | 2039210 flattrader
flattrader's picture

>>>"State enforced pregnancy" is either a misnomer or a non-sequiter, unless somehow the State is going to become a party to the conception, and then prevent its termination.<<<

What nonsense.  Women can be impregnated against their will through rape and incest.

Without any recourse and a state ban on all abortions for any reason, it IS then state enforced.

You want to play word games and split hairs with liberty and freedom.

Paul is a joke to true libertarianism.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:25 | 2039447 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

You are playing word games- a State ban on performing abortions is not the same the thing as State enforced pregnency, either as matter of the English language, or the simple fact that such a law would not prevent someone from traveling to a different jurisdiction if they so choose, unless they are incarcerated in a FEMA camp, prison, or GITMO.  Women can just as easily, if not more easily, be imprenated through rape in prison or the their local FEMA camp.  Additionally, if you incarcerate large numbers of women in penal colonies, the number of them who get raped will statistically be higher than the number otherwise would be with a non-incarcerated population.  My point has nothing to do with Ron Paul and everthing to do with the priveledge and obligation of chosing between the lesser of two evils- and if some BULLSHIT AND NARROW-FOCUSED "right to choose" ranks above life and liberty, without which- the former isn't even possible, then you are simply irrational, or worse.   

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:59 | 2038220 widget
widget's picture

Ron Paul 2012. Justin Amash 2020.

I see that you did there - nice.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:15 | 2036836 Freddie
Freddie's picture

I always liked Krieger's guitar playing in The Doors.  I loved the part where Jim sings "girl would couldn't get much higher!"

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:10 | 2037527 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

One clear and distinguishing characteristic of Ron Paul:  he's the only candidate advocating the reduction of executive powers for the office he seeks.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:39 | 2036684 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Ron Paul is 74 years old and is ON POINT. He may look like that guy who ran that cult out of Rancho Santa Fe (what was that called? Heavens Gate or something) but the guy has rock solid principles and his honest. 

Romney reminds me of a meth head and flip flops on everything.

Perry is on pain killers or something strong...maybe just drunk all the time. 

And Santorum looks like he's constantly constipated with boulder sized hemorrhoids. He's that grain of sand you get in your eye on the beach that just doesn't come out.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:39 | 2036699 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Perry literally is on pain killers. He supposedly has a very bad back.


Other than that, he would sound no different off of them.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:41 | 2036710 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Well his handlers need to give him some cocaine to even him out before a debate or speech because he's just off balance.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:43 | 2036722 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Of course he is off balance. He's Rick Perry. With or without pain killers or coke...

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:51 | 2036763 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

I'm actually pleasantly surprised there is a Rick Perry troll on here downvoting us. Either a Perry troll or his fucking disgusting wife...


Please show yourself! You might be Perry's only supporter left!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:01 | 2036801 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I think the voting system on ZH  (or any comment board) is kinda' sophomoric. 

I've posted comments that have gotten' -30 down votes and the next day I'll copy and the paste the same comment and get 30 up votes. 

Posting here is about sharing ideas, disagreeing, and hearing the thoughts of others from around the world. I think 'up voting' or 'down voting' is kinda' silly, there's no prize for most up votes so who gives a shit? It's like.... oooooooo I'm so mad at that comment I'm going to down vote it and show him how stupid he is. 

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:09 | 2036854 fuu
fuu's picture

You actually pay attention to the arrows?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:12 | 2036883 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Well they do normally appear before the first word of someone's comment so it's kinda' hard not to notice them. 

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:12 | 2037529 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

Awww, Bob is a sensitive guy.

(FWIW I did not down arrow you)

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 04:22 | 2038353 Socratic Dog
Socratic Dog's picture

It's good enough for Yahoo, that bastion of enlightened, cutting-edge journalism, so it's good enough for ZH.  I guess.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:13 | 2036881 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

*Flagged as junk

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:14 | 2036893 dtwn
dtwn's picture

I think it is an easy way of saying 'I agree', or 'I disagree' without writing it and further cluttering the comments section.  Do we really want to see someones comment followed for example by 40 'I disagree' ?  Sometimes people want to show support (or not) for an idea without verbally expanding it.  Yes, the up/down arrows have their weaknesses, but it is something I actually would like to see in the comment sections of other sites, i.e NYTimes, and other forums.  Some forums I read are utterly filled with garbage and makes reading them a chore.  I think in this way the writer can get some form of non-written positive/negative feedback.  In this way perhaps they will be motivated to refine their future statements.  Communities work better when there is a dialogue between the giver and reciever of information and ZH is a community.  That said, some individuals just don't seem to recieve many up arrows.  MDB?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:16 | 2037538 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

It's been said many times, but I come here for the articles....and stick around for the comments.  The quality of this site is unmatched - there are some very intelligent people posting here & I've learned a ton from the "elders" on this site.

I cannot read HuffPo, Politico, CNN, etc. for many reasons, but mostly because (like everyone else) my time is precious and I've decided to stop wasting my Internet hours on garbage.  Of course, like someone on a diet, I cannot resist a little junk food every now and again.....but ZH is my "true north"

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 21:40 | 2037717 smiler03
smiler03's picture

Well said! The comments are the best bit and agree about the intelligent people. One or two (hundred) exceptions though keep the comments entertaining as well. 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:34 | 2038169 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

I used to comment regularly on &, but there are far too many Progressive/Socialists on both sites that believe that Obamatron can do no wrong and Republicons can do no right.

NEITHER site has anywhere near the in-depth financial reporting that ZeroHedge does.  Sorry, Decepticrats, but Obamatron's sh!t do stink.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:15 | 2036904 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

@BobDab-Completely agreed. I really don't think anyone on here has insecurities about up/down votes. It was the start of a thread and everyone who bashed Perry got a quick downvote so it stuck out...It is funny to know there is a Perry supporter on the face of the Earth!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:24 | 2036951 kito
kito's picture

im in therapy for too many red down arrows................

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 23:47 | 2037996 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

I've started CUTTING as a result of down

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:36 | 2038177 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

When you can't even remember yer own campaign promises, I don't care how good a guy you are, you cannot be trusted with the red button -- end of story.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:16 | 2036913 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture


Thu, 01/05/2012 - 23:09 | 2037911 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Now you're just asking for it.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:37 | 2038178 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

"Stick and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me!" -- :>D

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:22 | 2036943 Thomas
Thomas's picture

Bob: In a sense, they are simply disagreeing without throwing any flaming arrows.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:22 | 2036941 The Heart
The Heart's picture

" Hey Huntsman, we have found your one vote"

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:29 | 2038163 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Rick Perry is gonna have to go back to Tx with his tail tucked after failing to make a decent showing in NH & SC.  Ya heard it here first!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:40 | 2036705 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Perry is still floating from his last groveling session at the Bilderburgers.  Romney bit the dust when he was on stage with John "The Happy Nazi" McCain.  Santorum.....PLEASE!!!!!! Like voting for Schumer or Pelosi.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:01 | 2036815 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

He's actually 76, not that it matters, he's healthier than people 20 years younger in many cases and his biggest vice if fucking chocolate chip cookies...

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:09 | 2036856 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I don't care if he's 176 I'm voting for him in my states primary if he makes it to Super Tuesday.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:18 | 2036919 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Clearly my point was missed.  You can look back at any Ron Paul post to see where I stand I was making a factual correction nothing more.


Incidentally you should consider that the reason you get so many down votes is because you're an asshole.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:51 | 2037097 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

You clearly missed my point which was that I stated I was voting for Ron Paul. I wasn't disagreeing with you.

I don't give a shit about votes. You must have missed that too. When I said gold was gona' sell off when it was trading @ 1900 I got 130 down votes. I simply could care less about votes. 


Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:09 | 2037170 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

I only posted below you to keep the continuity of the thread. I was responding to my down votes. Either way, we are both supporters of Ron Paul I wasn't trying to get into a head to head bout with you.


I up voted you to show that I care.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:39 | 2038182 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Folks, step aside and let the loving couple find a room...

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:51 | 2037098 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Now, THAT was funny.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 23:42 | 2037989 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

or just write him in regardless!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:36 | 2036685 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

National Defense Authorization Act

Please call your congressmen and tell them they should be ashamed if they voted for this bill. I encourage you to stand up for your freedoms. We are fast losing them. Soon we won't have any. Ron Paul 2012


Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:44 | 2036724 centerline
centerline's picture

The walls are closing in. Article today about a DHS unannounced showing at a social security office in Leesburg (FL) of all places. Rifles and K-9 units and all. Geeze. The guise that this done for our own protection is getting stupid thin.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 23:40 | 2037985 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

to be exact, they were SUBMACHINE GUNS!

gettin' the peeps used to what they will see when they come to complain about not gettin' their checks...

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:27 | 2036970 Miss Expectations
Miss Expectations's picture


Did you notice Rand Paul's expression during Ron Paul's speech (sans teleprompter) after the Iowa Caucus?  Seems to me that he realizes that his dad was robbed.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:19 | 2037547 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

Interesting to note Ron Paul did not vote on NDAA.  Has anyone heard an explanation?

I'd like to think he was on the campaign trail and/or otherwise occupied....but you'd think voting no would be priority numero uno for a man committed to civil liberties.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 21:43 | 2037724 smiler03
smiler03's picture

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that Ron Paul always abstains on any issue affecting the constitution? (or something like that).

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:36 | 2036686 Hanging By A Thread
Hanging By A Thread's picture

So, what you are saying is that you would like to have Barack for four more years - the benefit will be that the Ron Paul message will be more loudly stated.  While Romney signed the Cut-Cap-Balance pledge - you apparently do not believe him at his word.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:42 | 2036711 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Correct. He is a lying scumbag. Thanks for joining the conversation.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:45 | 2036728 bernorange
bernorange's picture

Believe him at his word?  Which one?  That's the fundamental problem with Romney.  You can't trust a damn word he says.  Plastic man molds himself to fit his audience as political expediency dictates.  He's a glad handler for TPTB and the status quo.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:49 | 2036750 Hanging By A Thread
Hanging By A Thread's picture

So you do prefer President Obama over Mitt Romney

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:55 | 2036775 cossack55
cossack55's picture

I would prefer a Republic with a small goobermint and citizens who can drag their fat, lazy asses off the couch for the amount of time it takes to educate themselves on REALITY.  Is that really too fuckin' much to ask???

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:06 | 2036832 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture

apparantly, yes.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:11 | 2036869 Hanging By A Thread
Hanging By A Thread's picture

I actually agree with most of what Ron Paul says - however, when I think of his fanantical supporters, the image of Randy Quaid in Christmas Vacation comes to mind - enjoy your goobermint

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 19:28 | 2037429 akak
akak's picture

Ah yes, the tired refrain of the malicious anti-Paul trolls --- when they can't logically attack Ron Paul himself, attack his supposedly "crazy" supporters.  Guilt by association.  What's next: dunking, to prove he is NOT a witch?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:28 | 2037568 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

I see your logic.  Won't vote for Ron Paul because of his 'crazy' supporters......but WILL vote for a certifyably nutjob and status quo candidate Mitt Romney.

Makes sense to me.  Enjoy YOUR goobermint.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:55 | 2036779 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

There is no fundamental difference between Mitt or Obama, so it wouldn't matter.  It's like asking a man with his head in a noose if he would like for Obama or Romney to pull the lever to commence the hanging. 

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:07 | 2036842 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

What a Dick. Oh wait...

(I gave you a green BTW)

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:07 | 2036839 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

You seem to think it's Mitt or Obama only.  I think if the Repubs don't go for Ron Paul it's Obama no matter what.  That is their big blinding error.  Mitt can't beat Obama he's got no traction and has the exact same paltry 24% of the Republican old fart voters as last go round.  He's not plastic, that is too good for him, he's dried out dog shit on a sidewalk that flies won't even bother with anymore.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 19:33 | 2037436 akak
akak's picture

Fuck this voting for "the lesser of two weasels" already!

Face it, all you fucking Ron Paul-hating trolls (not calling you that though, Temporalist): there is NO WAY that Mitt Zombie is going to win the presidency --- NO WAY! --- because those who support Ron Paul will NEVER vote for him, and they are now a large enough bloc to automatically swing the election.  So fuck your lesser of two evils argument thrice over.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 23:15 | 2037918 BigJim
BigJim's picture

TPTB would rather have Obama than Ron, so they could care less if Mitt gets nominated and then crushed. Red or Blue, it's all the same to them. 'Anyone but Ron' is their motto.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:46 | 2038192 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

C'mon dood, quit repressing yer feelin's, we demand to know how you really feel... :>D

[EDIT] -- Cyber-gremlins posted this in the wrong place!

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:30 | 2038166 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

It is only group think and conformity to conventional wisdom  that leads one to the conclusion that Romney is the "inevitable" Republican nominee or that Romney is even "electable"

Romney would be destroyed in a general election, where there is top shelf talent that he hasn't already bought off (hired).  Somewhere, the ghost of Lee Atwater is rolling over in his grave...

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:40 | 2036690 hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

Ron paul has to create one country and try to implement his theories,

In US with Federal Reserve MR.Paul has nothing to do,

For me will be a great honor to be working for him.




Thu, 01/05/2012 - 22:27 | 2037808 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

So, with Ron Paul in charge, you think he'd go all Lincoln and start Civil War II when states vote to leave the sinking ship?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:48 | 2038198 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Better for all concerned for the "Federation" to break up, IMHO.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:37 | 2036691 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

For all the RP fans, we need to start paying close attention to Justin Amash (R-MI). He is the closest thing to Ron we have in the House. Young, bright kid that frequently finds himself the only no vote.


Ron Paul 2012. Justin Amash 2020.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:37 | 2036692 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

Ron Paul: Both Parties OWNED by Same Elite. Stop the renewal of the Patriot Act NOW

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:40 | 2036694 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

Tyler, that's worth another thread:

Open Mic @Pentagon Press Room "See This Room, 2/3s' of us Laid-Off With Ron Paul"

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:20 | 2037219 Debt-Is-Not-Money
Debt-Is-Not-Money's picture


The press corps is worried about getting laid-off if RP is elected! LOL

They would have to get a REAL job (I bet they couldn't sell used cars). What could they do, the're just a bunch of pimps and whores, OH WAIT...

Thanks for linking that.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:32 | 2037262 55 men
55 men's picture

This alone should bring in 2 million new voters at least.

Thats right bitch, your going to have find honest work like everyone else! Now assume the position and get back down on your knees.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:38 | 2036695 j.tennquist
j.tennquist's picture

RP has great integrity.  Perhaps too much for such a slutty job.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:40 | 2036697 gojam
gojam's picture

Time for a return of the Old Bull Moose Party ?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:40 | 2037037 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Because it worked so well the last time?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 21:54 | 2037744 pods
pods's picture

It worked great. Got Wilson in so he could birth the FED.


Fri, 01/06/2012 - 14:27 | 2040040 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

aye, and then what did it get in '92? The same thing, the  marginalization of the center.  A third party this year means a win for Obama. 

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:39 | 2036703 kato
kato's picture

I DO NOT hold a deeply held view of Ron Paul as an honorable, genuine and trustworthy American statesman.


Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:45 | 2036731 j.tennquist
j.tennquist's picture

At least your compass is working.   And you are right on one point - if history teaches us anything it is that there is not a single politician alive that is worthy of our allegiance.    You don't have to respect the man.   He affiliated himself with the Washington clown show, that was his choice.  I still think there is an element of greatness to him, but maybe I'm being deluded - it is really very hard to know anymore. 

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:22 | 2037220 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

It's not just the man it's more the message.  I don't need Ron Paul now but he's the one that woke me up and I want him to win for that reason.  He's got integrity and where else can people find that anymore?  Perhaps there should be a world goovermint run by Nigel Farage and Ron Paul.


I have one wish and it is for the person that fucked Ron Paul over so hard by writing those shameful paragraphs in his letters to come forward and take one for the team. 

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:50 | 2038202 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

I believe that person was identified as Lew Rockwell on another thread...

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:45 | 2036732 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

You're thinking of Rick Perry.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:04 | 2036823 Commander Cody
Commander Cody's picture

Care to run yourself?  Perhaps identify someone more appropriate to the task at hand?  I'll wait.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:56 | 2037129 Smokey1
Smokey1's picture


Have you not watched any of the debates? My six year old niece is a better speaker than that squeaky, mumble-mouth fool. The guy is a fucking embarrassment on stage whenever he opens his mouth.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:27 | 2037454 akak
akak's picture

As opposed to the oh-so-polished eloquence of our current Kenyan-in-chief sans his ubiquitous teleprompter, or the shrill warmongering cries of a particular Minnesotan harpy, or the forked-tongue platitudes and backpeddling of one special-underpants-wearing plastic mannikin, or the stumbling, brain-fart-riddled cluelessness of that Bush clone from Texas?

Anti-American Quislings and traitors and "useful idiots" such as yourself make me utterly ashamed to share the same borders with you.  In your spinelessness and willingness to fall victim to every coordinated, fearmongering campaign by the Powers-that-be to manipulate those of weak minds and easily swayed emotions, you demonstrate yourself unworthy of the label "American".  In fact, YOU are the "terrorist", because your arguments, and those of your psychopathic overlords, rely on inciting terror just as much as any suicide bomber does --- and to vastly more destructive effect. 

Terrorist attacks by their very nature are isolated and scattershot, and are fundamentally nothing more than pinpricks to our society --- whereas the sweeping, centralized, crushingly authoritarian measures put into place by our OWN government are what are TRULY destroying our freedoms and our way of life itself --- something that NO amount of terrorist acts can or will ever do.

It is our own federal government that is the REAL enemy of Americans, NOT some handful of overseas cave-dwelling terrorists.  In your hysterical, wildly overblown, womanish shrieking and wailing over the absurdly overhyped "terrorist threat", you are akin to the ridiculous, illogical, neurotic fool who is deathly afraid of flying, even while casually and complacently subjecting himself to the 100,000 times greater chance of dying in an automobile accident while driving to the airport.

When you allow, and even encourage, our own government to strip of us our freedoms and alter and degrade our way of life in response to an act of terrorism, or merely in response to the threat of terrorist attacks, then you have effectively allowed the terrorists to win --- it is YOU who are "taking your marching orders from Al Qaeda", because YOU and those like you are the ones furthering the terrorists' agenda, which is to punish every American for the actions of our warmongering and interventionistic government.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 21:13 | 2037648 Smokey1
Smokey1's picture

Five paragraphs to say nothing.

The little bitch thinks she is some kind of deep thinker and has all the answers to straighten out this vile country. She is really out to get those thumbs up from all the guys on ZH. She parrots back all the libertarian stuff she's read over the last couple of years.

Even though she really doesn't understand politics or economics, she knows enough to fake it and be one of the crowd here. She latches onto the Ron Paul mantra and motherfucks the country, and she is in the club.

She prays that nobody discovers that she does not have a mind of her own.

Damn that Smokey1, he's got it figured out.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 21:20 | 2037667 akak
akak's picture

Five paragraphs to say nothing.

Well, you were exactly correct --- although five of your "paragraphs" were merely single sentences.


It is interesting to note, however, that the intellectually feeble, corporate-controlled-media junkie and spineless lemming was unwilling, or unable, to counter ANY of the points I raised in my prior post --- one has to presume because the lemming is waiting for his latest daily FOX News talking points before randomly spewing them out by way of rebuttal.

I am still trying to decide if my pity for you is exceeded by my hatred for your willing repudiation of everything for which the USA once stood.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:54 | 2038210 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Spineless, ad hominem response -- Junk for you!

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:59 | 2037130 Smokey1
Smokey1's picture

The USA would be hit within RP's first month as POTUS. BIG.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 19:55 | 2037455 akak
akak's picture

Sociopaths (such as yourself) always subconsciously project their own evil traits and motivations onto others.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:58 | 2037137 DosZap
DosZap's picture

new kato


So, you view him as YOURSELF?.

Where you from,and who did you vote for last time, and the time before?.


Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:56 | 2038214 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Perhaps, an Al Gore jock strap, sore loser (granted, the election was really stolen by G.W Bush)?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 18:14 | 2037187 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

@Kato-change your fucking avatar. You are a disgrace to the Vendetta.


Put a picture of a hobbit or some troll fucking thing. It would be more fitting.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 23:27 | 2037945 IAmNotMark
IAmNotMark's picture

Wow.  What an ignorant statement.

Tired of saying: "Do you want fries with that?"

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:40 | 2036704 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Ron Paul or bust for the Yanks.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:09 | 2036852 Odin
Odin's picture

I agree. This may be the last chance the nation has before they are rounded up and thrown into FEMA camps lol... but seriously...

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:42 | 2036717 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

yea and your vote for obama worked out so well - thanks for the voting advice

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:42 | 2036721 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Barack O'Romney will be the next president. Anyone who thinks otherwise had too many acids in their day.

Either there is an armed resistance, or there is nothing. You can bitch and piss and moan about it all you want, but you know it's the truth. So, what will you do about it?

1. Leave the country.
2. Fight to the death, starting right now. ("I'll fight when others fight" is something slaves tell themselves to feel a false sense of power over their lives.)
3. Accept that you are a slave, and keep paying your taxes until you die.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 16:56 | 2036789 Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Which of these three options did you choose?

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 17:05 | 2036831 Commander Cody
Commander Cody's picture

Personally, I'm committed to number 3 at the time, but leaning toward number 2 as a viable option.

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