Moody's Downgrade Of French Banks Imminent, Risk Waterfall To Follow?
As regular readers may recall, back on June 14, before it became an even bigger pariah in the thoroughly discredited rating agency space due to its refusal to downgrade the US, Moody's placed French megabanks SocGen, BNP and Credit Agricole on downgrade review, which means that at some point in the future the rating agency would have to cut the banks' rating from its existing Aa1-2, to Aa3 or even a single A. It is true that when it comes to downgrade reviews the rating agencies are notorious for being as unpredictable in their timing as they are conflicted in their rating: for example even though Belgium was supposed to be downgraded months ago due to the fact that it continues to be the longest running modern anarchy, nothing has occurred, as political interests are obviously pushing the raters to do as paying clients request, not as reality demands. Alas, for France, which is very sensitive to any inkling it may have a less than sterling rating (due to its sovereign AAA requirement without which the EFSF/ESM falls apart), the luck may have run out. Bloomberg reports that the abovementioned banks "may have their credit ratings cut by Moody’s Investors Service as soon as next week because of their Greek holdings, two people with knowledge of the matter said.
Bloomberg continues: "Cuts are expected next week as the review period concludes, said the people, who declined to be identified because the matter is confidential." Needless to say, this event will come at what is possibly the worst time for Europe, which is already scrambling on all fronts to protect itself from a financial and sovereign implosion courtesy of risk contagion and general insolvency. The point is that while the French banks will likely receive the implicit support of the G-7 which is meeting in Marseilles as we type, the ramifications are that an even weaker financial system will case the French sovereign rating in an even weaker light, and a cut to the country's AAA rating will hence be inevitable. When that happens, Europe will have no choice but to completely redo its entire bailout struture, as a French downgrade will throw the EFSF-CDO mechanism, and the European bailout crusade, in terminal flux.
Credit Agricole spokeswoman Anne-Sophie Gentil declined to comment, as did BNP Paribas spokesman Antoine Sire. Societe Generale spokeswoman Laetitia Maurel said she couldn’t immediately comment. Voicemail messages left on the mobile and office lines of Moody’s chief European spokesman Daniel Piels today, outside of working hours, weren’t immediately answered.
Societe Generale has dropped 55 percent in Paris trading since June 15, while Credit Agricole tumbled 45 percent and BNP Paribas has declined 42 percent. The Bloomberg Europe Banks and Financial Services Index of 46 companies fell 30 percent in the same period.
The reviews of Credit Agricole and BNP Paribas are unlikely to lead to downgrades of more than one level, Moody’s said when it put the banks under review. Societe Generale’s debt and deposit ratings may be cut as much as two grades because of the “uplift it receives from systemic support, which is currently higher than average for the French banking system,” the rating company said at the time.
Credit Agricole’s main risk arises from its Greek subsidiary Emporiki Bank of Greece SA, which was downgraded earlier this month, Moody’s said in June. Societe Generale, France’s second-largest bank by market value, faces risks from its stake in General Bank of Greece. Credit Agricole is France’s third-largest bank. BNP Paribas doesn’t have a local unit in Greece and is instead at risk from direct holdings of Greek government debt, Moody’s said.
And since in finance it is always about relative value, or lack thereof, we remind readers that yesterday we speculated that Credit Agricole, whose 3M USD Libor fixing soared to the highest of all BBA member banks, may soon become the next most prominent target of shorts (after Dexia of course, which is in for a rollercoaster of its own in the coming week).
Sure enough, the imminent downgrade provides an explanation why the bank scrambled to procure last capital funding before the funding doors shut. Alas, what matters far more is what the market response will be. Unfortunately for the bank, it will hardly be favorable; and with shorting already illegal, there is very little that European authorities can do reactively to pretend they still have any semblance of control over this slow motion train wreck.
(19 votes)
»
- Login or register to post comments
- 29423 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
Similar Articles You Might Enjoy:
- Moody's Announces That France's Debt Metrics Have Deteriorated And Are Now The Weakest Of All Aaa-Rated Peers
- European Bloodbath Resumes After Figaro Reports Moody's Eyeing France Downgrade
- Moody's Takes S&P's Place - Downgrades Belgium By Two Notches To Aa3
- Moody's Downgrades Italy, Spain, Portugal And Others; Puts UK, France On Outlook Negative - Full Statement
- Deutsche Bank Warns France May Be Put On Downgrade Review Before Year End
We're gonna need a bigger popcorn bowl.
....and a little more butter. Watch that sodium though.
Indeed, a lot of investors will get a hart attack next week... RIP...
one must take care with the rascally English Languish:
hart[hahrt] Show IPA noun, plural harts, ( especially collectively ) hart.
a male deer, commonly of the red deer, Cervus elaphus, especially after its fifth year. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hart) /smile/
Like when I have a Deer Sized Harton?
Fixed.
Risk off for everything not nailed down.
I'm waiting patiently for gold to hit peak gold-to-S&P 500 ratio (originally hit in early 1980s) before going long risk assets.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/288542-s-p-500-to-gold-ratio-has-not-yet...
as long as gold does not hit the real ratio to fiat currencies, fiat creators will be tempted to confuse their crash by manipulating gold and other reserves, as the gold price has become popular and increasingly creates a de-facto standard among people. Such price confusion is a logical strategic move. Due to its emancipation from gold-backing and as long as the real ratio is not hit, fiat has the power to confuse about its doomedness. Inception becomes reality or the perfect example for the tail wagging the dog.
Moody's only leaked in advance so they can sell (not downgrading) to the highest bidder(s).
Wasn't it Moody's who downgraded the US but not Europe...and just in time for the biggest rally in treasuries since the early 80's?
S&P did it and it got their head exec. fired and demands that they go in front of congress and explain themselves (accusations of frontrunning it).
If you are saying TPTB are likely to become even more interventionalist in the gold markets, I agree. They have no choice.
TPTB own more gold than anyone ... their private banks might be short PMs ... but the private banks are set up to fall with everything else in the collapse. They will retreat to their private islands, gated communities and resorts in friendly oil based dictatorships as chaos rampages through the world ... but the collapse will not make them poor and it will certainly not reduce the percentage of true wealth they control (including gold).
This fantasy that the collapse will wipe out TPTB is complete lunacy. It won't do a damn thing about wealth distribution, it's just going to crater productivity. They'll still wash down caviar and truffels with champaign, it will be the poor that suffer. Some of us might be able to hitch a ride with PM investment, but the only people guarantueed to not lose are TPTB ... except in a true revolution. That's why they are TPTB.
Who could've seen this coming? (/sarc)
Surely not these guys:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/27/100874288_a5ff91b322.jpg
Maybe it was just a typo. I do it all the time. And no, I don't proof read everything.
This is ZH, the point is what matters. Eh. LOL Just look at the makets. Less than Perfection.
riots in zurich, cause unknown, as of now,
looking for athens, meeting any westhern town.
edit 11 AM: no biggy just an illegal party with 1500 people that became quite violent. the real deal will show after the euro has crashed
"Maybe it was just a typo."
Yeah, no big deal. He's Belgian, he does pretty damn good...lol.
Besides, I have a sticky "C" key...anything an happen ;-)
Perhaps it was intentional. The deer in headlights picture comes to mind. :P
I think the missing letter was an 's', not an 'e.'
"Indeed, a lot of investors will get a shart attack next week... RIP..."
"F" maybe?
WaPo's reason to exist: The famous "change one letter" contest.
e.g.: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/28/AR201005...
Is that the one frozen in the headlights?
So how is Belgium doing?
Riots? Bloodshed? Starvation? Flesh eating zombies in the streets? Mad Max?
http://www.food-links.com/countries/belgian/belgian.php
shows what a country can do without a government
Big deal, Japan does that. They just slip the word "not" in there.
@macholatte
YEAH -- we're having it real tough over here in Belgium.
PS -- you forgot all the beer and chocolate. Nearly a year without be.gov too, Tough times for sure...
Those Brits have their austerity package lock, stock and barrel! I'll be playing those GBP trades over the next few months.
Great post S/D as always!
European bankers are just as greedy as US Bankers... US bankers offered time bombs that looked like 'sure fire money making CDOs/MBS, etc' to the European bankers and the greedy European fools took them onto their books.
The time delay fuses have set the synthetic garbage held on European banks balance sheets off and the mission of taking down the Euro fiat currency is almost accomplished.
While military warfare is usually sporadic, economic warfare is continuous... and there are no rules.
Next time Europe decides to construct a currency to compete with the dollar they should do due dilligence on factors they are vulnerable to... For instance: No one is more succeptable to a scam than a scammer... The European banker scammers got caught in a scam perpetrated by US banker scammers...all is fair in economic warfare.
Well, Snidley, it is not precisely that the US is without problems. Let's wait and see. In german there is a saying: "Nicht zu früh freuen" - that is not to crow too soon. Or: "Wer im Glaushaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen" - talk about the pot calling the kettle black. ;-) Never underestimate historical memory and experience ...
jhm... To the contrary, I am not 'crowing' about what is transpiring. I am simply pointing out what I believe has happened.
I certainly do not approve of a movement by US banks, in collusion with regulators, to create toxic time bombs aimed at wrecking a competing currency to the dollar.
The consequences of what the US has done to wreck the Euro are wide ranging and certainly effect 99% of the worlds population due to decreased purchasing power of various fiat currencies including the dollar. The damage caused can be seen in higher energy prices, higher food costs, political unrest, etc... and could easily spiral into global conflict.
I did not mean to give the impression that I approve or that I am gloating.
Color me a disapproving observer... but, what can individuals do? We go to the polls to cast our votes and there are no candidates that we approve of, no candidates that are not bought and paid for by bankers, no candidates that offer meaningful change.
So, I watch and make comments on events. I read an article and sometimes offer a different slant on what I believe is happening... Strictly my opinons...Disinformation is everywhere and I hope not to add to it.
I believe European bankers were patsys for a scam perpetrated by US bankers... with prior approval and encouragement from the highest level...all in an attempt to prolong the life of the dollar as the world reserve currency and to eliminate competition to the dollar from all other currencies.
Snidley, very interesting. Nice take on "recent" events. Be careful with the red team blue team analysis though. US bankers, Euro bankers. All major TBTF banks are global these days. Not saying your thesis, € v $, is wrong, just don't think there is such a thing anymore as a European bank, or a US bank, or an Asian bank.
Snidely is doing the simple (and usually correct) rationalization since time immemorial: FOLLOW THE MOTHER FUCKING MONEY. In other words: WHO BENEFITS???? You can then deduce the wherefore's, why's, and how's.
Understood (great to read that!) and thank you for your answer, very much appreciated. Food for thought, always a gain for the brain. :-)
See, to watch this multitude of levels in this "game" i have a strange feeling that no matter how sophisticated the US bankers (and politicians) seem to be and no matter how utterly clever their preparations were (since a very long time) they will sooner or later lose their funny game. As will their european friends (minions) in the relevant positions everywhere in all european countries. And with all of them the whole western political and banking scam will fall in a way the world has not seen since the dragon wars.
Chaos is not a certainty, given historical experience with people in Europe in situations of dire crisis. I am realistic about human nature, but am hopeful, too. In the worst times when all expect the (human) beasts to rave and rape in the streets often the best comes out in people nonetheless very fast, against all odds.
Looking at Germany i would strongly advise to take Russia, China, India and Turkey into the game, especially the russians and the indians are far underestimated in the great game. The ages-old anglo-american nightmare is a eurasian bloc with the russians and the germans in it working together, with Poland and France at the russo-germanic coat-tails as partners in crime.
To prevent that eurasian nightmare ever happening the anglo-american (empire) has done and would do everything, including as to go so far to try to ruin the planet at all cost just to stay in their illusion of power. This is not the whole story, there are myriads of levels here to watch, but it is one major part of the whole drama. Well, known (and lesser known) human history stands like a giant rock against all these efforts (by the anglo-american "elite" and its minions) to keep control, no matter what. No winning game here, for none of the players.
I'm Crowing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7zR3IDEHrM&feature=player_detailpage
Or is it ravening?
If that were so Snidley, and the whole CDO/MBS fiasco was a plot to take out the Euro, then why did the Fed secretly funnel all that money to shore up EU banks? Why not just let them fail? Why all the cooperation to massage gold prices lower while central banks buy up gold if the plan is for the USD to be the sole currency standing? In that case, central banks wouldn't need the gold. I don't buy it. The system isn't solvable and the Fed and ECB intend to remain at the top of the new system. The Fed can't go it alone, it needs the ECB to get its way.
I see this crisis as a tag team match led by the Fed and the ECB on one side, and any country stupid enough to follow them vs. all of the rest, led by China, and perhaps Russia. Winner takes all.
Guess who's going to win? My money's on the Bernank
Smiddywesson... I am as interested as anyone to see how this plays out.
I have presented a hypothesis that cannot be proven at this time. In time we will see if the dollar is still around when the Euro is extinct. The proof, if indeed there is any, will be in what currency is still standing when others have disappeared.
If you dig into how the Euro was structured you will see that it was a sound system, lacking only physical/fiscal union. The Euro was attacked at it's weakest point...is this an accident?
Another bomb that was planted in the EU was Greece. Greece was aided by Goldman Sucks in hiding off balance sheet it's true debt...which allowed Greece entry into the EU when it should have been denied. Was this an accident?
US based and European based multination banks were instrumental in spreading toxic derivative instruments throughout European economies. A housing bubble similar to the one in the US was spread to Europe... a toxic economic virus.
Iran set up a program to sell oil for Euros and they were invaded. Lybia wanted gold for oil and they are invaded. Any country that introduces a currency that competes with the dollar runs into 'bad luck'... Could this all be coincidence?
Were the swap lines that Benny opened with European Central Banks for saving the Euro or for saving multinational banks? European countries were settleing trade with China in Euros, leaving the dollar out of the loop and endangering the dollar as reserve currency...
Lot to consider here and I have barely scratched the surface...
Interesting hypothesis, Snidley. The facts fit, so keep fleshing it out.
Without ouside influence, everything will travel the path of least resistance.
People believe a world war is about to come but that war has already started and it is a silent war without apparent death, a financial-economic-cultural war, with the USA vs. Europe and the USA vs. the World.
Woah! The takdown of the euro was collateral damage caused by the law of unintended consequences. Remember, CDO's were developed based on the theory of a Chinese national Ph.D quant, who developed a formula to allow them to do risk analysis of the piles of dogshit, errr, subprime mortgages they mixed in with regular mortgages based on CDS priced by the market. It was hailed as a major breakthrough, all prior attempts failed due the large number of variables. Clearly they were too smart for their own good and didn't test the algorithm against a falling market. Greedy dumbasses. Anyway, CDOs and CDSs, all these opaque derivatives are developed for one thing: wealth transfer to the banks and Wall Street.
So why did the Fed transfer all that FRN$ to the EU banks? There are probably multiple reasons, but seeing as how they are all banks, I believe it was to protect the interests of their controllers. The owners of the Fed most likely have multinational exposure and the collapse of EU banking system who have wounded them deeply. Why should the banking elite suffer when they can transfer that pain to the taxpayers? Isn't that why the Fed was developed in the first place? It's about the money. It's always about the money.
to keep with the military theme, the banks are sitting on non-IM (Insensitive Munitions) compliant stockpiles and they didn't read their quantity-distance tables correctly. Thus when one gets set off, the rest of the magazine will go high-order via sympathetic detonation. In other words, BOOM!
http://macronomy.blogspot.com/2011/09/markets-update-credit-chandrasekhar.html
"European banks seems to be facing a US dollars funding problem as no investors is willing to lend (buy a CP/CD) with a duration over 1 week. That information, if confirmed, is of significant importance as it has major implications not only in the money market (the spread OIS/Libor is at the widest for almost 2 years and keeps on worsening- 1rst confirmation), but also FX basis market (the basis swap between currencies has been deteriorating significantly and stands at -60 bps versus -10 bps 4 months ago -2nd confirmation). IF the trend remains unchanged in the coming weeks, the casualties may be the following:
if the same people that own the fed also own the european banks, why would they want to wage war on themselves ?
That was great. lolol
hahahah, check out this funny video of the Frenchman Chairsatan Trichet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jelCDnwpsxo
"Arithmetically, mathematically, it's not an esay job! Do you remember that?"
"Que Sera Sera"
The Future's not ours to see?
WE'VE GOT ZEROHEDGE BABY!!!
Yes we do Sudden! ZeroHedge, the antidote to State Run Media shilling. Without ZH I would not have learned so many things.
In less than 24 hours we will see how futures are reacting. LOL.
YES, above comments re SPOT-ON about lots of popcorn! Another interesting week ahead!
Watch for a $60.00 spike down in gold.
That means that the downgrade will be announced 5 minutes later, just like with the SNB CHF peg.
Yes, absolutely. When TPTB are brash enough to crash gold in the overnight markets, seconds before the SNB announcement, we have arrived at a whole new plateau of price manipulation.
TPTB didn't spend decades denying gold manipulation just to blow all their credibility on one currency move. TPTB didn't want to do that, events forced them to do it. (which of course undermines my previous post that the SNB coordinated the move, but being wrong is part of this game too).
The downgrades will no doubt be coordinated with the central banks, so the gold manipulation may not be as obvious to the public as the SNB event, but with gold prices sitting this close to the $2k level, they are going to have to be a lot more obvious about things from here on out.
I also think they will use a margin hike or two to defend the $2k level, otherwise, where do they use them next, $3k?
Here’s where it gets interesting. They desperately do not want $2K breached.
What else would explain the waterfall drops that cannot possibly be profit motivated?
Everybody accepts “policy action” manipulation of interest rates.. why on earth would someone doubt “policy” is being carried out in any other area of the illusory “free Market”?
I hate this market but I am loving this action.
Well said SD , you poor suffering Belgian
TD if u read this please remember that if ZH ever goes mega popular and u r tempted to sell out just remember the total Respect of the mad gang of commentators here is worth more than shitty devalued millions of dollars.
Stay frosty.
Downgradeathon 2011...
Coming to multiple jurisdictions near you soon!
Great comment Hulk! I just wonder who is downgrading, " The WHO"? Not much credo left in the rating system, and I love the Band!!! (:...
That happens, the collapse is staged and wanted by the elite. Moodys are controlled. They wouldn't do this if they weren't given the order.
Also, if they do downgrade the French banks over their Greek debt holdings, they need to downgrade the Swiss banks...
The 2-day Fed meeting is next week, 9/20. There needs to be a hard sell off this week (9/12 - 16) to justify QE3. Dow 14K and S&P 1400 won't do. Keep in mind, QEn doesn't only benefit US banks.
The current dollar rally and maybe some more commodities drops will give them the cover of emerging 'deflation'
That is what it looks like. Nothing like fear and panic to raise the call to "do something." As we know, something is always the same thing.
On another note, Fred, I remember when successful investing meant finding undervalued companies with solid fundamentals. With this manipulated bullshit, I find that success only comes when one is able to correctly anticipate what the manipulators are going to do next and trade, not invest, off the manipulation.
the only way to win is not to play.
Ever hear the parable of the three servants and the three talents of gold?
I thought that there were four servants and four talents of gold, with the fourth one being put to death for losing it in a game of three-card monte. But maybe that was the Old Testament version . . .
Green for all above. The game IS rigged. Like a casino...
Buy gold and take care of yor own. Do not let the thieves take your money, or be conned into that by CNBS.
Now it looks like France comes under pressure. Previously it was thought Italy was the TBTF there in Europe. If France takes a beating (I do NOT see France failing though), then Game Over.
A casino, yes I admit it I'm hooked on the flashing red and green ticks but at least in the short term you can win. All spring Tyler kept saying the Fed needed cover to get the next round of QE which they desperately wanted to provide to their friends. It had the ring of truth so I put money on it. You can make money on this market, but not in the way it was designed to provide capital for companies. I wouldn't be able to evaluate a company's fundamentals if I had to but I was able to predict and profit from many of the trends by answering a few questions, how many bonds are they going to need to sell, what meetings are coming up and such. Greece, Italy Ireland and such aren't significantly worse off now than they were a month ago. Worries about 'contagion' and such are brought into the news when the market is needed to be moved. I'm not accurate enough to make good profits in most markets but todays market has become so wild that options would probably make money using a dart board (as long as they are puts). I won't be gambling with any more money than I can afford to lose, but thank you Tyler, I'm not losing.
Agree. These days it is 'trade the news' instead of trade the tape and trade the fundamentals. And be ever so nimble! So nimble indeed.
This is exactly my problem: manipulated bullshit. I want to buy my neighbor's house. Its worth about $300k. They think they can get about $450k-$500k because everything stays the same. Moody's is still looking into it. SINCE JUNE. how long does it take to see France has Greek bank debt that is worthless on its books? GMAFB. I've been asking for months - what when will it take to make this house of cards start to crumble? To start the cleansing process since the banks have all been shoveling fiber down their gullets? Its got to come of their asses sometime. They can't keep it bottled up. I hate the elitists who are using new words every day to describe what they will do to fix the problem and yet the problem doesn't get fixed but somehow they keep marching onward. I was shocked that they got to the German court verdict. Shocked. I felt for sure that would have punched through their bullshit but all they said was "see parliament for any more money" - with Merkel's party in disarray, who's winning? the leftists who will print more money? or the far rightists that will pull germany out of the euro? Every time she goes into a meeting with Sarkozy she hedges and says no Germany won't do more and then comes out for some pan-european crap that has her covering France now. WTF? Someone explain when the end starts. How it will start. We thought it was Switzerland but no, that went by with a whisper. Now we're back to Greece???? Anyone looking at Spain. Whats the spread on those bonds? Are they going to come knocking at the chairistan's window too? And there's Obama talking about $450 billion on a jobs bill thats to be paid for with smoke and mirrors when we just had a debt limit debate that brought the country to a halt. I want to say "Wake me when something real happens because all THIS is contrived" I guess the real action is in the Arab Spring going into the Islamic Winter. Wonder how the meditteranean sea lanes will be with the North part of Africa fully under control. I guess nobody will be cruising next year.
Nerdette, sit tight. Properties that people think are worth 500K now, even in this depressed real estate market, will eventually sell for 200K. Keep your powder dry, there will be a time to buy real estate, but it isn't now, even if you think you're getting a great deal.
Obviously not if the dollar goes hyperinflationary ...
I've got my eye on my neighbor's house too. No one lives there. It's much nicer than mine. Needs a little work but nothing i can't handle. Not only is the price I'm thinking pretty aggressive (free) but so are the taxes i'm willing to pay for being there (none.) Luckily it's in the woods so "it doesn't have that lived in look" cuz my house is "right on the road" and i get noticed...and sheet.
It's all kick the can. If they can delay QE3, they will and just announce that the next meeting will be 3 days, and intimate that will be the real meeting to watch. This is all just a show to kick the can and buy gold, it's not about fixing things or deciding anything, otherwise, central bankers wouldn't be bragging about their tools, they'd be using them.
Mr. Potter a.k.a. Buffett owns Moody's Mr. Potter would not give an order to down grade, upgrade yes, down no.
Dillusion of Granduer
You do know that Berkshire a.k.a. Buffett a.k.a. Mr. Potter owns Moody's right?
Yes - what he should have called it was "Dilution of Grandeur"
I thought the Swiss central bank already did that by piggy backing the Euro. Oh well after all a problem shared is a problem halved. i think!
dup post: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/moodys-downgrade-french-banks-imminent-risk-waterfall-follow#comment-1655236
Self referencing paradox!
What a wicked game we play.
Bank dustification to commence.
So apart from the currency kicking into high gear really soon, we also will see the rating-warfare tools being used to widen the spreads.
Already has... compare the consolidation on USDX ($DXY) from 3/14/08 till the 8/8/2008 breakout to 4/29/2011 till last weeks breakout. Almost identical.
A little question. If France get downgraded... and EFSF is ``cancelled`` (for France)... can they pull off a Germany-only EFSF?
I think I read that it would mean 100% German GDP backstopping S. Europe without French participation.
I don't think Germany wants to be/is strong enough for that
I agree. Without German squire France (snide remark courtesy of Jim Willie) at their side, Germany is likely to decline to be the savior of the Euro. Or the PIIGS.
I view a lot of the talk out of Germany as just that, talk. They need to keep the public calm and pliable while they go along with the Fed and the ECB's plan to move us to a different monetary system based on gold. They will do whatever they have to do to make the switch work, so Germany is going to talk, and talk, and talk, and then do exactly what Ben and company wants. Did we not just see the SNB commit suicide in order to join forces with the kick the can game? So will it be with the Germans.
Your avatar - is that Merkel's head after 2-3 weeks on a pike?
And? Like that would stop them.
Why did you ask if you're only going to argue?
Oh, he must be in the wrong room. This is snide remarks. Argument is down the hall.
no it isn't.