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The Mother Of All Infographics: Visualizing America's Derivatives Universe

Tyler Durden's picture


A month ago we presented the latest derivatives update from the OCC, according to which the Top 5 US banks held 95.7%, or $221 trillion of the entire US derivative universe (which in turn is just a modest portion of the entire $707 trillion in global derivatives as of June 30, 2011). And while the numbers of all this credit money, because that's what it is, and the variation margin associated with all these trillions in bets is all too real, appeared impressive on paper, they did not do this story enough service. So to present, visually this time, the US derivatives problem, we go to our friends from Demonocracy, who put the $229 trillion derivative 'issue' in its proper context. For those curious what a paper equivalent of bailing out the US derivatives market would look like, now you know.


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Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:24 | 2359043 Seorse Gorog fr...
Seorse Gorog from that Quantum Entanglement Fund. alright_.-'s picture

Yes! I asked Demonocracy to do this one. You can thank me later...

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:34 | 2359070 Popo
Popo's picture

The implosion is going to be of cosmic proportions.

I keep coming back to the same conclusion:   War is coming.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:37 | 2359087 I think I need ...
I think I need to buy a gun's picture

well i don't know what all the fuss is about i sold some physical gold this morning and bought some tumi and splunk first thing this morning The VALUE is incredible. derivatives shmitivies....

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:50 | 2359125 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

When I was a kid, 1 Trillion was a lot of money.

Today?  lol.  Been debauched so bad that "value" resides only with the fiat currency that has the strongest military.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:18 | 2359225 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Dr. Evil: Mr. President, after I destroy Washington D.C... I will destroy another major city every hour on the hour. That is, unless, of course, you pay me...
Dr. Evil: one hundred billion dollars.
The President: [bursts with laughter] Dr. Evil, this is 1969! That amount of money doesn't even exist.
The President: That's like saying,
[with changed voice]
The President: "I want a kajillion bajillion dollars."

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:26 | 2359249 engineertheeconomy
engineertheeconomy's picture


All others exit to the right, there's a soup kitchen down the street

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:44 | 2359300 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

Compare these skyscraper sized amounts of paper to all the gold ever mined being able to fit underneath the Eiffel Tower. I know what I like.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:15 | 2359405 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture


1. One Million seconds ago = 12 days

2. One Billion seconds ago = 32 Years

3. One Trillion seconds ago = 32,000 Years

US National debt = 15.6 Trillion

World wide Derivatives exposure = 700 Trillion +

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:36 | 2359441 Ag Tex
Ag Tex's picture

What about the $800 trillion in shadow derivatives?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:55 | 2359545 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

Webster Tarpley quoted as saying it's more like  1.5 quadrillion. 

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:55 | 2359667 toady
toady's picture

To paraphrase Darth Cheney;

Trillions? Your still talking about trillions?

Come back when your talkin quadrillions!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:28 | 2359718 What does it al...
What does it all mean's picture

Best evidence that JPM (and other TBTF banks as well, but JPM in particular!) is a house full of cards:

From 1999 to now, JP Morgan has NOT had a single losing quarter in profits...  Yes, Dotcom bubble, Sep 11th, Financial Crisis, Bear, Lehman, AIG, MF Global...  NEVER A unprofitable quarter.

They can release some money from quantitative modelling reserve, credit loss reserves, money under the mattress, Ben's side pot, whatever.  Never a losing quarter...

What fundamentals?  What is value?  And what is the point of fighting for the truth?  

No body understands scale... when it comes to dollars, body count, or morality... It becomes a relative game.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:08 | 2359909 Born-Again Bankster
Born-Again Bankster's picture

And to think I said to my high school math teacher, "Like I'll ever have to use the word, "googolplex' in real life".

Foot now in mouth, Mrs. Medeiros.  Touche'.

Fri, 04/20/2012 - 06:58 | 2360556 silver500
silver500's picture

The last graphic with the white house surrounded by towers of derivatives is a very good and scary image

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:48 | 2359517 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

I think that gives way more perspective than pictures of stacked dollars actually.  Thanks!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:00 | 2359564 jonan
jonan's picture

lol, the only thing in the universe faster than the speed of light is the rate at which the fed can print.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:41 | 2359763 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Damn, now I know why the Europeans sunk so much money into the Super-Collider.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:10 | 2359400 engineertheeconomy
engineertheeconomy's picture


I get a down arrow for saying " IN GOLD WE TRUST" ?

 you don't think that would be a troll now do you?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:19 | 2359426 JonNadler
JonNadler's picture

that was me, what do you expect, this gold thing ruined my life!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 23:12 | 2360255 insidious
insidious's picture

Why did it ruin your life?

Fri, 04/20/2012 - 04:25 | 2360494 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

(the actual) Nadler's offices were raided by RCMP awhile back. He's been very bad.

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 17:15 | 2501042 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Probably he said:   "I don't know anything" and was immediately released. 

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:43 | 2359766 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:43 | 2359985 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

ass, gas, or grass...nobody rides for free...

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:49 | 2359995 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:57 | 2359165 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

indeed ironic that they used the world trade centers for the last graphic.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:44 | 2359768 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

They're rubbing our faces in it, since the WTC was the last known whereabouts of most of the real gold in the US.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:21 | 2359237 jarrollin
jarrollin's picture

please chill out

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:42 | 2359297 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"War is coming."


Why?  What if all the CDS holders simply get together and say "call it even?"

What would be the outcome?  These same entities control everything, including the military of most countries.

Just saying, what would these entities actually do.  We are talking about paper-pushers who don't know how to do anything to begin with.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:08 | 2359392 PartysOver
PartysOver's picture

Simple.  Put your counter party that you owe payment to out of business.  No need to pay off.  Next finance the war effort.  Hummmm.  Finally consolidate and control banking. 

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:10 | 2359398 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Or a quick Gx conference where the decision is to outlaw them.
Same as calling it even. It's not their money they are betting, it's yours.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:15 | 2359402 blu
blu's picture

What if all the CDS holders simply get together and say "call it even?"

I think one of the reasons they have all this paper piled up on their books is because they know perfectly well they have no intention of paying. They are selling "insurance" they can all agree not to pay. No government will ever call them on it, obviously, they can simply say that actually paying will destroy the world. In the meantime they enjoy the premium payments.

It's a scam to fleece the smaller financial parasites. A way of moving money up hill against the flow of gravity. Where it will remain, come hell or high water, forever. And if they want they can use a cooked up "credit event" to selectively nuke parts of the financial system they no longer have need for. Like they did with Lehman. All very sad of course, nobody could have seen this coming, etc.

I suspect we can safely ignore the entire affair.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:52 | 2359539 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I was going to upvote you, but you lead with a comment. Maybe someday that bug will get squished?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:04 | 2359792 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

That's it, all right.  The reason to create these deals in the first place was so that banks could extract fees (as percentage of total notional value) and bonuses for the dealmakers.

Everyone knows no one can pay anything off.  Not only does everyone KNOW THIS, but it's now been DEMONSTRATED.

And yet we're supposed to be all trembly scared of the "possible damage" to be done to the world when some given trigger is finally pulled.  It's absurd. 

There's no need to worry about it because they can all just exchange STOCK when it's time to settle up.  Ha.

Fri, 04/20/2012 - 09:54 | 2360910 Mach1513
Mach1513's picture

They don't give a Bernank's ass about this shit. Balanced positions. Created with faux money. Doesn't exist. None of it. All they care about is their fees. Fuck everything else - including the derivs. They got theirs already.

And of course none of them will ever really pay.

Complete bullshit.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:46 | 2359511 Incubus
Incubus's picture

Why?  What if all the CDS holders simply get together and say "call it even?"

What would be the outcome?  These same entities control everything, including the military of most countries.

Just saying, what would these entities actually do.  We are talking about paper-pushers who don't know how to do anything to begin with.


For chrissakes, debt and money is never about who owes what so much as it is about who gets you to do what.  Like I said: shoot for 100000 trillion--it doesn't matter.  This is about managing human livestock and right now the general consensus amongst our handlers is that our numbers need to be reduced to offset catastrophic resource conflicts.


War is coming because it must.  The world isn't about making things better for us common fucking losers--it's about what we're allowed to do in order to make the lives of our handlers better.  If it means knocking a few billion of us off the face of the planet, so be it.


And you thought your life ever meant something?  Boy, have they got all of you fooled.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 22:17 | 2360159 i-dog
i-dog's picture


"our numbers need to be reduced ... War is coming because it must."

War is for profit, not for population reduction. There have been far more people killed between wars---by starvation and ensuing disease---than in any wars.

Expect them to either unleash a more virulent virus or simply disrupt food supplies (possibly due to a convenient war, or threat of war).

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:03 | 2359789 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

"What if all the CDS holders simply get together and say "call it even?""

Reminds me of the scene in Holy Grail, where Arthur battles the Black Knight, cutting off his arms and legs, at which point the Black Knight declares, "Alright, we'll call it a draw."

Fri, 04/20/2012 - 01:22 | 2360379 Moon Pie
Moon Pie's picture

"War is all hell....and the more of it there is, the sooner it will be over." - William Tecumseh Sherman

One of the truest words ever spoken about war in my view.   This as the man was subduing the South.

Here in this case, the war is not with cannon, rifle or cavalry.  It is with financial instruments and financial "might".  Used against people, against the government and against ANY entity that might rise against it.

War is not coming.  Its here.  It's been here and it is taking ground.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:46 | 2359645 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

It is essential that average people have zero debt on anything they don't want to lose.

When the implosion hits, institutions will call every callable loan in an effort to survive. 

Can you pay off all your callable loans today? Do you even know if your loans are callable?

If your local fiat currency devalues by 20% the day derivatives fail, can you still pay off all your debt upon demand?

If your bank invokes their new disaster rule and tells you funds will be available in 30-to-90 days, can you still pay off all your debt upon demand?

As long as the top five continue to insist that derivatives remain unregulated, I will continue to pay down debt.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:27 | 2359839 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

"I keep coming back to the same conclusion:   War is coming."

Exactly.  Sad, but true.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:39 | 2359095 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Post this on Facebook beside one of the Khardashian Sister Cunts who just had fat sucked out their fat ass, and guess which post 97% of Americans will have a thought on?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:43 | 2359106 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

The sluts continue to defile themselves by sleeping with Aficanus Erectus.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:48 | 2359123 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

MSM has to keep up the memetic programming that black men with white women is a good thing.  

Thank God I've sworn off american white women myself.   99% of them are overpriced bitches.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:57 | 2359138 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

The fat-assed sluts are of questionable racial origin.  Do the qualify as being white?  Eurasian?



Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:06 | 2359200 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

She's Armenian. 

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:11 | 2359373 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

I stand corrected.

Since Armenia borders the Caucasus Mountains to the south, I would say that they are definitely Caucasoids.

... or Cockasoids?


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:30 | 2359474 Joeman34
Joeman34's picture

Do NOT even dignify their existence by referencing them on this site!!!!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:26 | 2359953 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture


Fri, 04/20/2012 - 04:38 | 2360498 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Kosher MSM is more into White Mudsharks/Congoids - Heidi Klum + Seal, frinstance - who produce nonwhite offspring; in this case, orange brats with quills instead of hair. Whites should accept their extinction with good grace. After all, we don't want our Jewish masters to get "holocausted" again.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:56 | 2359338 flattrader
flattrader's picture

I have some women friends who feel the same way about American men of all colors...but, they would insert "who don't measure up" between overpriced and bitches.

You're just posting to ZH in between surfing the free porn, aren't you?

I can't imagine you're getting much..."I've sworn off...."  Yeah, right.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:54 | 2359543 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

You'd imagine wrong, but then you don't have all the pertinent facts either.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:10 | 2359805 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

"Thank God I've sworn off american white women myself.   99% of them are overpriced bitches."

Drudge had photos of the $47 Colombian-Secret-Service hooker earlier today, and I must admit she looked like she might be good value for the money.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:21 | 2359944 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

.yes but not worth the $800 she was 'dickering' about....

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 21:04 | 2360021 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

$800 vs losing one's stellar job and outted by Drudge by name? I think I would have paid the exorbitant charge.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 23:56 | 2360301 Isotope
Isotope's picture

Relatively speaking, worth every penny.

I've seen pictures of "escorts" here in the USA, listed at more than $800 per hour who didn't look nearly as appealing as her. And I'll bet she is a lot more pleasant than the ones here.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:44 | 2359108 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

well, if you your friends on facebook are really your friends, go ahead and post it anyway.  You never know who might be paying attention.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:44 | 2359111 pods
pods's picture

<takes the 5th>

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:26 | 2359252 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Forgive my ignorance; but(t) outside of a sex tape I can't recall any reason why that completely fucked up family is always in the snews? I mean, they're not singers or athletes right? I guess there is no accounting for no-talent 15 minute famers in the US. 

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:50 | 2359337 smiler03
smiler03's picture

There's a very easy answer to this. Women are the worst women watchers going. They are obsessed with the competition. It's in their genes.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:27 | 2359748 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

and if that's true, then there are more women on ZH than we thought. . .

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:11 | 2359810 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

... and some of them are actually women, and not simply over-estrogened guys in their parent's basements.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:58 | 2359559 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Someone has to lobotomize the masses. Remember, they were born and raised around Hollyweird.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:11 | 2359809 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Things of absolutely no consequence are what get the most media attention.  The sports-entertainment complex is one of the best examples.  Huge coverage all the time, and it means virtually nothing to anyone which team wins or loses any given match or season.  The "cousins" in the teevee room from Farenheit 451.

Important stuff that affects millions of lives is way too risky to publicize.  Might upset an advertiser or something.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:26 | 2359742 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


Post this on Facebook beside one of the Khardashian Sister Cunts who just had fat sucked out their fat ass, and guess which post 97% of Americans will have a thought on?

well Eireann, one needn't even go to deFacedBook for TeeVee news, particularly when it involves anything about the various women portrayed there - all one need do is read ZH threads, continuous updates, 24/ 7, including links.

you lads seriously haven't got much to do any more, do you?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:26 | 2359052 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

Looking, looking, looking... Nope, nothing abt credit money in my neo-classical economics 101 text book so this has to be irrelevant.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:26 | 2359054 jarrollin
jarrollin's picture

That's some serious stuff, derivatives and whatnot.  I have no idea what they are or how they're going to get me.  But I do know something even more serious.  Check this out:

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:29 | 2359057 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture



Think of it this the time Uncle Warren "resigns," BofA's $50T exposure will be worth about 9 loaves of bread.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:14 | 2359815 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

He will never resign ... the question is how long he can be kept alive or, alternatively, has one of his many companies figured out how to transfer his consciousness into an android?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:29 | 2359060 Smiley
Smiley's picture

Das a fuckload of paper mang!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:35 | 2359076 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Too bad the real product of this can fit on a key-chain flash-drive.

And to balance this out, they should have put a cube of gold on one of the tennis courts, to denote the sum total of gold production throughout the history of mankind.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:03 | 2359189 Captain Kink
Captain Kink's picture

that was a soccer field and a football field... would be even more dramatic, becasue a tennis court is nothing in comparison.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:11 | 2359209 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

My bad.  Wonder which one the existing supply of silver would fit on?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:18 | 2359417 blu
blu's picture


Fits in a ZH comment, notice. I can do more too. But my finger got tired.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:18 | 2359423 blu
blu's picture


Should have thought of the shorthand before I got a finger cramp.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:28 | 2359062 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

And by the look of the count according to Elliott Wave, we're about ready to go for a slide...all that built up value of 700T in unfunded liabilities.

Enjoy the ride.  It's going to be rough.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:22 | 2359828 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Nice chart, thanks.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:29 | 2359063 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

Actually ... it looks like a jail to me

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:42 | 2359107 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

There's no criminal negligence in banking and finance!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:18 | 2359823 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

And so there has been a "Get out of jail free" card in Monopoly since the 1930's ....

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:21 | 2359434 blu
blu's picture

I thought it looked like a maze. Or a trap.

The little guy standing next to the pallet of $100's won't get out alive.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:31 | 2359064 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

Derivatives = hidden losses.  They are the error account of the US banking system.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:51 | 2359131 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

@ Quinvaris, "Derivatives = hidden losses."

In its simplest form.  Derivatives = holding a one dollar bill and stepping into a house of mirrors. 

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:46 | 2359312 engineertheeconomy
engineertheeconomy's picture

Derivatives = Ponzi scheme = Hyperinflation/total wage destruction for people/wealth without end for bankers = earths population enslaved by bankers for perpetuity = the military-banking-complex has turned the earth into a radioactive prison labor death camp


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:49 | 2359323 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture



I like that analogy better.  Derivatives are hidden leverage - potentially losses and potentially gains, but exposure all the same.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:59 | 2359681 Excursionist
Excursionist's picture

Nothing to see here people.  Move along.  Net derivatives exposure among the systemically important entities is reasonable relative to their capital bases.  I would be shocked, simply shocked if one of 'em blew up in the next five years because of their net exposure..

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:01 | 2359181 AgShaman
AgShaman's picture

Hidden losses = Pensioners and Tax Deferred account bagholders

H. Markopolous (chased down Bernie Madoff) has stated that the first 2 in the picture (Bank of NY Mellon and State Street) have been stealing from people for decades with creative siphoning.

People here will wait for their slaughter....rather than just taking the penalty, and getting the fuck outta dodge

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:30 | 2359067 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

soon the only thing left to bet on will be slewie's derivatives of the big5 derivative "holders"

this will become the basis of an entirely new credit system called: whoMe?seeYa!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:19 | 2359825 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Ahoy slewie!

Expect an email from Corzine by morning.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:32 | 2359069 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Why does Demonocracy hate freedom?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:58 | 2359152 BlueCollaredOne
BlueCollaredOne's picture

I love their motto "ignorance is bliss, reality is not." 

It's so true.  The period of a few weeks that I began "waking up" were fucking crazy and I havent been the same since. 

Its part of the problem people like us face when trying to expose others to the fraud/corruption that exists today.  The average person doesn't want their idea of a fair, decent world to be completely shat upon by the truth

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 21:01 | 2360016 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

The average person WANTS to be sold a fairy tale with a happy ending. The truth is too harsh to grasp, so they turn back to the fairy tale.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 21:53 | 2360107 brettd
brettd's picture


Once you get used to dealing with the truth, it's simple, efficient, friendly and 

so much easier than all the work that goes into the theater of bullshit.

It'll set you free!

But it does take some getting used-to.  It's certainly counter-cultural.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 21:02 | 2360017 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



Just had one of those conversations today.  Today's really important truths are just too overwhelming for the mind of someone steeped in the "american dream" belief systems. 

Little by Little.

My conversation today was one of several that have shown some progress, however.  The progress report: when she told me she simply could not decide on Republican or Democrat, I congratulated her for having a subconscious that protected her from picking a "side".  That she did NOT succumb to the propaganda of either. 

I got a curious "HMM".


Little by Little...


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:02 | 2359186 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

Because there is no such thing as freedom in a Bureaucracy.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:48 | 2359322 engineertheeconomy
engineertheeconomy's picture


there fixed it

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:33 | 2359072 killallthefiat
killallthefiat's picture

I thought the WTC were knocked down.  Were they moved to DC?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:48 | 2359124 pods
pods's picture

In keeping with the meme, when those fall they will implode just like WTC7.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:58 | 2359171 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

@ pods,

The humungous false flag of 9-11 conveniently got rid of lots of records ... money laundering and all kinds of deals on various floors of the Twin Towers, records of a very alive investigation of particular parties by the Office of Naval Intelligence in one of the towers and Building 7. Many Naval intelligence personnel were killed and records destroyed when the new offices in the Pentagon were blown up, allegedly by a humungous, hi-jacked commercial airliner making an impossible flight path even by an expert pilot with "the plane" making a hole in the wall that obviously was far too small for its size. And all those plummy C.I.A. records and IRS records also went down with the demolition of Building 7, which took 7 to 8 seconds for the fall; 10 and 12 seconds for the respective Towers.

Wherever now there is a major building blown up or an unexpected fire in countries in which the U.S. has an "interest," I look to the United States and the C.I.A. and Blackwater and Zionist Israel and their demolition experts, the Mossad, as the culprits to set various factions against each other, to keep chaos and destruction going to confuse the population, etc.

In some way Cheney will get his because it works that way, if not this lifetime, another or another. He has all the traits of a psychopath which makes him somewhat less than human, but since neither you nor I are in charge, we have no idea what awaits him or who he really is.

What a collection of diabolical ones have come together in these years of the beginning of the 21st Century to destroy. Maybe that is necessary to birth something new. We'll see. Ultimately it's really up to The People, masses of people who have had enough of oppression, and hunger, and strife and injustice and all those lousy things that a $mall percentage of the population engineer for their own ends and their own gains.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:09 | 2359208 pods
pods's picture

Agreed. I have argued with many about the 911 topic over the years.  Mainly to make them think of things that they cannot comprehend.  Like having something this terrible being carried out on purpose so that the worlds remaining superpower may unleash vengeance upon the world.

I know that nothing will happen in regards to investigating this, but I do hold out hope that once this mess is over, people will be able to once again try to live for their own benefits, instead of a malevolent state married to a banking oligarchy.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:19 | 2359233 manhunter
manhunter's picture

If indeed Uncle Thug DID engineer 9/11 as a "false flag" attack then every single metal holder and  had better run screaming to the nearest coin dealer and sell their entire stash today!

Because, if you believe your government is so cold, so cruel, so power-hungry and so efficient as to get away with the murder thousands of its own citizens under these pretenses, then you have NO CHANCE of prevailing against these thugs.

So, think your "conspiracy theories" through very carefully before you go spouting off on "9/11 was an inside job!"

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:32 | 2359261 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

Hey manhunter,

throughout history, Government's have killed more people than all the world's Militaries combined.  You can continue to use your talking point/narriative of "conspiracy theories" to be dismissive of the truth.  Truth is, the world now see's through the Illusion.  The world knows who the Psycopaths/Sociopaths/Murderers and thugs are.

By the way, I'll hang on to my PM's and lead thank you very much.   

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:55 | 2359353 smiler03
smiler03's picture

I don't understand your point. You're saying that Governments and the worlds Militaries are entirely separate? Does not compute.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:48 | 2359519 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Threat of violence via police and regulatory action was more deadly than actual direct military action, perhaps?

Though that doesn't seem to be it, as the government is at the source of both problems.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:07 | 2359579 manhunter
manhunter's picture

Hey genius,

according to many of the posts on this thread, the goldbugs believe--and even use fancy math and calculus to back it up--that Uncle Thug himself is so ruthless, so vicious, so cunning, so efficient, and so sneaky as to be able to near-perfectly execute:

1. The hijacking of four planes

2. Crashing three of them into his own people's buildings (one of him his own Pentagon)

3. Using everything from thermite to small nukes to blow up the World Trade center buildings

4. And, in the process, murdering approximately THREE-THOUSAND OF HIS CITIZENS, SOME OF THEM WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND MEMBERS OF HIS OWN MILITARY, to further his evil agenda

4. Covering up the whole thing

...and get away with it to this day.

So, without delay, ALL the metalheads who posted on this thread:

"9/11 was an inside job!"

...had better scurry to the nearest coin shop, trade all their coin hoards for dollars, and pray that Uncle forgives them for their transgression against his monetary monopoly.

Because a government so despotic, so calculating and so able to carry out acts such as these will have NO compunction about rounding up every poster on chatboards who ever even MENTIONED the words "gold" or "silver", and torturing them to death while confiscating their stashes.

And no longer do I  want to hear the tripe of:

"But, but the government is too inept and too lazy to be able to find us all. And besides, they will have to pry my gold/silver from my cold, dead fingers!"

...because the hoarders themselves have made (in their minds) IRREFUTABLE cases for Uncle Thug's awesome power, efficiency and ruthlessness in carrying out the most massive, insidious, ruthless attack on his own citizens--then being able to cover it up.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:35 | 2359627 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

@ manhunter,

Three-Factor Model of Psychopathy

Arrogant/Deceitful Interpersonal Style:
- Glibness/superficial charm
- Egocentricity/Grandiose sense of self-worth
- Pathological lying
- Conning/Manipulative

Deficient Affective Experience:
- Lack of remorse or guilt
- Callous/Lack of empathy
- Shallow affect
- Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Impulsive/Irresponsible Behavioral Style:
- Need for stimulation/Proneness to boredom
- Parasitic lifestyle
- Lack of realistic, long-term goals
- Impulsivity
- Irresponsibility

Yes, you and they are VERY SICK. Unfortunately, there are no treatments that have been found to be effective in treating sick individuals, such as yourself. You need to be kept from holding public office or positions of authority at all costs, as that’s where you and they do the most damage to others around them. What’s worse is that it is that people like you are often the most ambitious seekers of political office or positions of power, and due to their manipulative and deceptive tendencies can be very difficult to detect.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:21 | 2359829 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Psychopathy is not a "sickness"--it's a congenital condition like albinism or color-blindness.  Seems to be neutral in terms of adaptive value, so there's not even justification to assert that psychopaths are inferior in any way.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:59 | 2359781 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Are you smoking crack?

"...because the hoarders themselves have made (in their minds) IRREFUTABLE cases for Uncle Thug's awesome power, efficiency and ruthlessness in carrying out the most massive, insidious, ruthless attack on his own citizens--then being able to cover it up."

Lots of holes in your theory here.

First, those four planes were hijacked by idiots with boxcutters- not exactly well-executed.  Only three of them hit targets, making for a 75% success rate- less if you consider that the Pentagon wasn't knocked out, but merely wounded a bit.

I guess we see where your standards are, but I could arrange a full-on 9/11 with all the dubious trimmings in less than two months if I were a sociopath with an agenda.  There was nothing impressive, powerful, or efficient about it- it was a ham-fisted strike planned by idiots, and that's about what I would expect from the government.

That's not to say that they can't keep bumbling along for decades more before the wheels fall off.  They have a strong normalcy bias, and Americans are always optimists, even when it doesn't make any sense.  I personally don't think they'll keep it together for much longer, but stranger things happen every day.  All I know is that the longer the status quo persists, the worse off the vast majority of us are going to be.

And even with that being said, you're still a fool for lumping all pm investors into the same group.  There are plenty of reasons to invest in silver or palladium if the economy goes on a tear, and we're all living lives of luxury.  There is also the nuclear option of drinking colloidal silver if there is a pandemic illness, and the fact that silver is used in military ordinance.  

So, I don't care what you "no longer" ... "want to hear the tripe of:"  It's either a trade or a hedge, and either way, it's your choice whether you engage it or not, the same as any other investment.   

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:28 | 2359842 Seer
Seer's picture

"First, those four planes were hijacked by idiots with boxcutters- not exactly well-executed."

Box-cutters... I can't stop laughing!  I suppose you still think that there were WMDs in Iraq.  I should really look to place some bets against folks like you- easy money!

Fri, 04/20/2012 - 00:59 | 2360360 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Thanks buddy.  That really set me straight and filled in some gaps in my knowledge.

I should be irritated, but really, I just feel sorry for you.  Are you one of those guys who watches movies so that you can spot all the continuity errors and gloat in your spare time?  Those guys are awesome- I just can't understand why they never get laid.

Have fun with your secret superior knowledge super-club- I'm sure I'll spend the rest of my life just wistfully daydreaming about how it would be if I was awesome like you.

Maybe if you get some spare time you could share your insider info with the rest of us, but I would imagine a guy like you is pretty damn busy.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:03 | 2359901 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

"hey genius" ~

I realise you've only been "here" for about 6 weeks, so most likely you've missed the many threads on the nine-eleven subject (which I highly recommend you look up in ZH history), and I've no desire to address you point-by-point, but I'll go here:

4. And, in the process, murdering approximately THREE-THOUSAND OF HIS CITIZENS, SOME OF THEM WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND MEMBERS OF HIS OWN MILITARY, to further his evil agenda

"women and children" are killed every day by "HIS OWN MILITARY" the world over, so let's not pretend otherwise - as to keeping "HIS OWN MILITARY" safe from death, they've been using Depleted Uranium since Gulf War I (at least), and that shit is in the 'nads of everyone who comes in contact with it, either prior to use, or breathed after deployed.  plenty of articles/vids available, I can recommend you search "Dr. Doug Rokke" - here's a link, but there are many more should you be inclined,

and one of the "homeland" places "HIS OWN MILITARY" have tested this poison is Maui - they denied this for years, but eventually have admitted,

In the 1960s the Army trained to use the Davy Crockett at several ranges in Hawai’i by firing the 20 mm M101 spotting round containing DU.   The Army’s surveys discovered that Pohakuloa on Hawai’i island was also contaminated with DU, and possbily Makua valley as well.  The Army’s website on DU at Hawai’i installations contains a number of reports. Apparently, Hawai’i was not the only place contaminated with the Davy Crockett DU.   The DU contaminated sites include:

  • Fort Benning, GA
  • Fort Campbell, KY
  • Fort Carson, CO
  • Fort Hood, TX
  • Fort Knox, KY
  • Fort Lewis, WA
  • Fort Riley, KS
  • Schofield Barracks, HI
  • Pohakuloa Training Area, HI

"HIS OWN MILITARY" - not yours, but HIS OWN'd. . .


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:39 | 2359288 pods
pods's picture

Seems to have struck a chord eh?

Governments throughout time have been found over and over again to have murdered when it suits them.
Why does our government have to be different?

There is no immutable law that says that the USA has to be better (or worse) than any other government in history.  It has been shown to carry out attacks, or make up attacks when it suits it. (Gulf of Tonkin)

It has sterilized citizens for the betterment of the whole.  Tested Schedule I drugs on unwary citizens (LSD), against their will or knowledge.

It keeps secrets because the truth is too damaging to the minds of the people who spawned the government and delegated their power to it.

I for one do not know what went on that day, but when you add up the facts, something smells.  Toss in the London tube bombings and the anthrax attacks and you have some explaining to do.

I have thought my "conspiracy theories" through, have you?



Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:47 | 2359325 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I will never understand people who put their faith in government and believe that it can't happen here.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:24 | 2359831 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Did you go to school in the USA? Like many places, you are taught that Govt is there to help you, and that there are "checks and balances" to protect the interests of the people.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 21:12 | 2360038 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



In a decently run STATE, Gov should only be there to help us.  Fed only the necessary (and reasonably) tribute from the commerce, of course.

Not defending the status quo, that's for fucking sure.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:28 | 2359550 psychobilly
psychobilly's picture

"It has sterilized citizens for the betterment of the whole. Tested Schedule I drugs on unwary citizens (LSD), against their will or knowledge."

Like the CIA crop-dusting towns with LSD, or putting it into their food supply, causing mass panics, suicides, and a spike in new patients committed to insane asylums.  Good times.

Despite their Ivy League pedigrees, these so-called people are human garbage, and should be treated as such.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:14 | 2359717 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

@ psychobilly,

 "The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that from the CIA's inception in 1947 to 1987,

6 million people had died as a result of CIA covert operations."

Throw in another 2 million from 1987 to 2007, interpolated from the above estimate.


"At least 869,720 people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq since the U.S. and coalition attacks,based on lowest credible estimates." So let's call that another 1 million.

That makes 9 million total.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:32 | 2359965 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

well said

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:34 | 2359856 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


whether one chooses to believe, or not, that the military/gov sprays citizens as test subjects, to this day, doesn't negate facts:

The Army used serratia to test whether enemy agents could launch a biological warfare attack on a port city such as San Francisco from a location miles offshore.

For six days in late September 1950, a small military vessel near San Francisco sprayed a huge cloud of serratia particles into the air while the weather favored dispersal.

what's in the water? what's in the air you breathe? what's in the food you eat?  no one need disclose, and they don't.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:09 | 2359394 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

 if you believe your government is so cold, so cruel, so power-hungry and so efficient as to get away with the murder ... bla bla bla.. and so on..

Anyway.. I'd like to say that some of us think the 9/11 story is so full of holes and lies that only a fool would believe it. However, this does not mean we think our government was behind it. I do think our government was behind the cover-up though..

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:09 | 2359566 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

If your saying the government coverd its negligence in detecting and taking effective action to stop an attack by radical muzzies, we agree.  If like the guy above your saying our government conspired with empty planes and "nano-thermite " to take down the builidngs kidnapping the passengers and then keeping the secret, I laugh out loud at the dichotomy of a government that can handle that but not Secret Service Agents failing to pay Columbian hookers.

After a closer reading, agreed.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:25 | 2359605 psychobilly
psychobilly's picture

"I laugh out loud at the dichotomy of a government that can handle that but not Secret Service Agents failing to pay Columbian hookers."

Your opinion is irrelevant.

The government has demonstrated a repeated ability to keep operations involving even thousands of people secret for decades.  The NSA, which dwarfs the CIA in size, operated for decades without the public knowing the agency even existed.  Their Project SHAMROCK, begun in the mid 40s, was at the time -- according to Sen. Frank Church of The Church Committee fame -- "probably the largest government interception program affecting Americans ever undertaken."  The public didn't learn about this one until the 70s.  There are other examples, e.g., Manhattan Project, F-117 Stealth Fighter.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:29 | 2359622 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

"Irrelevant"  Well obviously had I known the omnipotent Billy Bob was present I would have pointed out the fact that concealing compartmented defense information where there is a clear national defense purpose tends to bring out the best in people.  Hiding the fact your government just pulled off the biggest mass slaughter of it's own population is in a class by itself but of course you knew that didn't you.  Are you familiar with the psychological phenomenon of projection, how silly but of course you are psycho..  Is that you Nye?

One of these things doesn't equal the others, learned that in 1st grade psycho..

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:15 | 2359660 psychobilly
psychobilly's picture

"...present I would have pointed out the fact that concealing compartmented defense information where there is a clear national defense purpose tends to bring out the best in people."

What possible motivation would those involved in the crime have for coming forward?  This should be interesting.

"Hiding the fact your government just pulled off the biggest mass slaughter of it's own population is in a class by itself but of course you knew that didn't you."

Which makes me even more anxious to learn from you what the motivation would be for one of the perpetrators coming forward.  ??

As for "hiding the fact" and whistleblowers coming forward, they did a piss poor job of that given the thousands of scientists and other experts who have come forward to question the government's conspiracy theory.  And here is a list of whistleblowers:

A Guide to the 9/11 Whistleblowers

"So what if there are 9/11 whistleblowers? What if these whistleblowers come from every level of government and private industry, individuals who have even had their cases vindicated by internal government reports? As you are about to see, there are numerous such whistleblowers and each one is a thorn in the side of those who want to pretend that the 9/11 Commission represents the sum total of knowledge on the 9/11 attacks."

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 22:26 | 2360178 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Your conspiracy sites are as irrelevant as you billy bob..  Lets assume it is all true this changes what exactly, the security state has arrived and you take the time to point us all backwards and say "Look they, the evil they, fooled us"  Well psycho whats the plan?  You have discovered through diligent work and of course omnipotence the greatest conspiracy ever but no plan..

Please shut up, you and all your troofer friends fifteen minutes has passed..

Fri, 04/20/2012 - 06:23 | 2360527 psychobilly
psychobilly's picture

lol.  It's not like I was expecting a rational answer from you to my questions about what would possibly motivate a participant in the crime to come forward (??), but how lame. Covering your ears and closing your eyes like a child as a strategy for dealing with uncomfortable facts and questions will surely convince people of your sincerity.  Be sure and shake your head and stamp your feet for added effect.

Fri, 04/20/2012 - 09:29 | 2360831 pods
pods's picture

Hiding the fact your government just pulled off the biggest mass slaughter of it's own population is in a class by itself but of course you knew that didn't you. 

The government killed many multiples of 911 just by keeping Vioxx on the market.

Whistleblower Dr. David Graham, in testimony before the US Senate, estimated 88,000 to 139,000 Americans experienced heart attacks as a side effect from the drug, and 30 to 40 percent of these died. That would be an estimated 27,000 to 55,000 preventable deaths attributed to Vioxx.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:52 | 2359130 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

no, like the economy, the metal was quickly destroyed

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:17 | 2359219 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

oh ho ho ho....... very clever DJ, melted, smelted for scrap too....



Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:34 | 2359077 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

Yeah sure...but how many iPads is that? That's what America wants to know!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:37 | 2359082 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

So when does project Mayhem begin?

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 15:49 | 2359326 pods
pods's picture

Can't start this week, I am busy selling the Kardashians their fat asses back to them to wash their formerly fat asses.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:28 | 2359442 blu
blu's picture

Well played sir.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 16:19 | 2359422 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

To borrow from Dilbert, 17 Apr. 12:

"The project exists in a simultaneous state of being both totally successful and not even started yet."

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:37 | 2359083 wherewasi
wherewasi's picture

Thanks goodness there's no real risk involved here.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:37 | 2359088 suckerfishzilla
suckerfishzilla's picture

$229 trillion is a lot.  I suppose that Syrian clearance sale on Gold will only be a temporary set back in the grand scheme of things.  Silver beetchez!

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:39 | 2359092 vegas
vegas's picture

I don't think there's enough trees in the world to handle the paper. As a corollary, with so much exposure, how can the Fed evahhhhhhh let interest rates rise again? For me it seems impossible, no matter the chattering heads at the Fed. With that backdrop, the only direction gold & silver can ultimately go is up - a lot up since even the most benign inflation can't be fought by the Fed with a policy response.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:55 | 2359142 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

it's that word "let" that the rest of the world would like to debate

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:38 | 2359093 Jason T
Jason T's picture

gambling debts.. put this shit through bankruptcy and cancel all that debt. 

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:38 | 2359094 NeedleDickTheBu...
NeedleDickTheBugFucker's picture

I guess now the top 5 banks will just need to build taller headquarters to reduce the magnitude of their derivatives exposure.


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:53 | 2359137 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture


Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:39 | 2359097 Shleprock
Shleprock's picture

Holy Goat BTFD!!!  This is crazy cheap :)

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:39 | 2359099 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Extremely hard to comprehend what financial benefit those derivatives are worth to even the most vile bankers when you consider the risk. My only hope is that when all this blows up and it will that we round these guys up and put them in prison for life. 

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:47 | 2359116 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Risk?  What risk?  To the bankster there is no risk.  To the rest of us? Well, the IRS will ensure the collection of taxes happens to pay for the bailouts and interest on the national debt.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 17:49 | 2359649 reload
reload's picture

Value of derivatives to banks: pull profits forward / hide losses & kick them down the road. Fool, confuse and fleece customers. And lastly but not least, let's not forget uncle W, when he said they were financial weapons of mass destruction he was right and the TBTF crew knew it. They now have their very own nuclear option. Keep the free money flowing, that WE may benefit at the expense of the majority- OR we bring this paper construct down and chaos ensues.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:32 | 2359753 putaipan
putaipan's picture

i'm as conspiranoid as the next guy ... but i am open to the notion that the entire dervitive exposure/wealth of the tpbt is kind of a case of the 'sorcerers apprentice' with the quants as the apprentice. they created something the sorcerer could neither understand or control. 2007 could have been the ultiamte downfall for them, but instead we are being further hosed to prop up their imaginary wealth.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:42 | 2359868 Seer
Seer's picture

I'm more inclined along this angle as well.  I suspect that they didn't feel that they needed to care: perhaps they thought that the markets would keep things from going unstable.

My reason lies primarily with the question: Why, if you're on TOP, would you purposely instigate something which is HIGHLY UNSTABLE, something that you yourself have no assurances of not taking yourself out?

Maybe there are 100% infallible peon control devices out there that they're aware of (involved in constructing); I kind of doubt, however, that there could be such a thing with such absolute efficacy that is also able to refrain from negatively impacting TPTB: perhaps a virus in which only TPBT and their chosen few get inoculated?

"but instead we are being further hosed to prop up their imaginary wealth."

Yup, when everything goes for the non-PTB so to will it go for TPTB.  There's that saying -wars will end with the warriors lay down their weapons- that seems to also apply to the notion that this entire BLUE PILL paradigm will disappear when people no longer believe in it (or walk away); not really a damn thing that TPTB can do about it (can't push on a string).

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:41 | 2359100 web bot
web bot's picture

Ah...    I feel like reaching for the pail right now...

And they say that derivative contracts are needed... ya... needed to feed the profits of crooks.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:39 | 2359101 Soda Popinski
Soda Popinski's picture

"Wow, a trillion dollar bill Mr. Burns.  That must be worth a fortune".

- Homer Simpson

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:42 | 2359109 mt paul
mt paul's picture

do the Mayans 

have a word 

for 229 trillion...

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