This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

As Negative Gold Lease Rates Collapse, The Gold Sell Off Is Likely Coming To An End

Tyler Durden's picture


One of the more curious dynamics for those who follow the gold market closely, has been the relentless grind lower (or higher if looked at on an absolute value basis), of gold lease rates (defined as Libor - GOFO), which recently hit all time record lows (i.e., negative), for the 1 month version, although the more traditional 3 Month (as it is based on the benchmark 3M USD Libor) was also quite close to breaching historic low levels. And while we have discussed the nuances of Libor-GOFO, or the gold lease rate extensively before, a good summary was presented by Jesse's Cafe Americain yesterday, who correctly suggested that record lease rates are a primary driver for the near historic sell off we experienced yesterday. In a nutshell, negative lease rates mean one has to pay for the "privilege" of lending out one's gold as collateral - a prima facie collateral crunch. The lower the lease rate, the greater the use of gold as a source of liquidity - and since the indicator is public - it is all too easy for entities that do have liquidity to game the spread and force sell offs by those who are telegraphing they are in dire straits and will sell their gold at any price if forced, to prevent a liquidity collapse. Said otherwise: to force a firesale. Well, we are happy to announce that the selloff spring clip potential that is embedded in a near record negative lease rate has now been discharged courtesy of the $100 dump in the past two days, which may have happened for a plethora of reasons and nobody can tell why precisely, but one thing is now sure: the underlying tension in the supply and demand for gold as a source of liquidity has collapsed. That said, the next time we approach the previous thresholds we will advise readers as it will likely indicate another gold-derived liquidity rubberband "breach" is imminent.

3 Month LIBOR - GOFO

And Long-Term LIBOR - GOFO:

Charts: Bloomberg


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:46 | 1983029 achmachat
achmachat's picture

pssshhhhht! don't tell Roubini!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:53 | 1983058 Doomsday Profit
Doomsday Profit's picture

Nouriel (and Naill) have obviously been "talked to" about the folly of their previous positions. Two particularly disturbing sell-outs.... 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:54 | 1983066 Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

The fundamental factors for a skyrocketing gold price are unchanged, worse in fact. The truly stratospheric rise will happen at some point, but not until physical is priced by it's own market, free from the ETF puppet show. The problem is that none of the current power brokers in the PM markets want to let physical run wild. It will be interesting to see how this all transpires...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:57 | 1983074 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I suspect they just want to beat the price down at year end.

Can't have too many positive years when stock markets are going nowhere, but side ways and down...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:13 | 1983143 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

Gold is bearing down on the long term rising lower channel at 1160ish which well probably occur at the same time SPY slices down into the 900ish area. I don't expect gold to stay cheap for more then a few minutes at that lower channel line so a fast trigger finger will be key.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:39 | 1983279 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

The central banksters cannot QE if they don't get the price of gold under control. They very well understand that if gold goes on another rocket ride like 2008-2009, their monopoly over money is game over. So right now, what we're seeing is those central banksters trying to set the ground for another round of QE, and they need gold to be unpopular to do that.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:56 | 1983349 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

They are already QEing. Twist is QE Hidden

Gold is merely doing it's master's bidding in the GOD complex (Gold/Oil/Dollar).

The three HAVE to be seen together, their current individual standing as to price is meaningless.



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:59 | 1983366 Jay Gould Esq.
Jay Gould Esq.'s picture

A question for the board:

Do any here have any experience with Provident Metals ? If so, how does this outfit compare with Apmex ?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:59 | 1983656 X Yooper
X Yooper's picture

I have bought silver from Provident but not Apmex so I can’t make a fair comparison. I like Provident, in fact, I just recommended them to someone this morning. I haven’t bought from them recently because I discovered a local coin shop and have become a regular there.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 18:31 | 1985238 tooktheredpill
tooktheredpill's picture

do we really want to be long PM's when the debt and equity markets are probably going to go into carnage mode?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:38 | 1983787 goldfreak
goldfreak's picture

i bought a small amount of silver from Provident, no problems

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 14:12 | 1983978 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

I've bought quite a bit from APMEX - smooth transactions with quick and discrete delivery. I probably could have saved a dollar or two by shopping around, but now that APMEX has a track record with me, I prefer to stick with them.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 14:47 | 1984165 EINSILVERGUY

My dealer of choice has been gainsville. bought about 10 seperate times and no issues. I have purchased from quality silver bullion and Provident. No issues with any of them.  Never used APMEX as their premiums are too high. I also didn't like the add on charges during checkout.  Gainsville has good bar prices. Provident had the lowest 90% junk silver.

Best deal in town though is either a coin show or local dealer. I usually save over $100 in price differential by buying at the coin show instead of online will provide comparision shopping for about 10 different dealers



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:13 | 1984292 Manthong
Manthong's picture
CNBC: “Gold Sheds 'Can't Lose' Status: Now, No One Wants It”    
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:39 | 1984403 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

I was going to post this link until I saw that you had already done so.  Very funny stuff.

The time is coming when gold will be much cheaper than it is even today, paper gold that is.  At the same time, you will not able to find any physical gold available at any price.

CNBS will still be writing about how gold has been such a bad investment.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 16:05 | 1984511 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Always nice to see contrary indicators like this. Was wondering when to start scaling into this recent POG downturn. This gives me the confidence to start pulling the trigger.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 00:13 | 2080296 exartizo
exartizo's picture

I had a very nasty problem with Gainesville and decided to never buy from them again. They "lost" my silver shipment and said that I had "signed" for it. It took them about a day to figure out the problem, when I told them I hadn't received the silver. 

Apparently, someone at USPS had the nerve to sign for MY silver. Go figure. 

But I was on pins and needles (as you can imagine) when they told me that I had signed for a silver shipment I never received.

The owner of the company was rude, and that was the clincher. 

Now I do business elsewhere and am much happier. 

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 00:15 | 2080297 exartizo
exartizo's picture

I had a very nasty problem with Gainesville and decided to never buy from them again. They "lost" my silver shipment and said that I had "signed" for it. It took them about a day to figure out the problem, when I told them I hadn't received the silver. 

Apparently, someone at USPS had the nerve to sign for MY silver. Go figure. 

But I was on pins and needles (as you can imagine) when they told me that I had signed for a silver shipment I never received.

The owner of the company was rude, and that was the clincher. 

Now I do business elsewhere and am much happier. 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:03 | 1983668 ShoeShineBoy
ShoeShineBoy's picture

 ECB has already started its QE, but thing is people do not want to acknowledge it as QE. That 3 yr unlimited credit easeing is a one giantic quantitative easeing. I guess people got stuck with unlimited funding, secondary market activity for sovereigns that they do not see how ECB is directing the local banks to fund their own sovereigns through this 3 yr unlmited funding. To make it easier, they even announced that they will accept a wide range of credits at NCBs (i.e. corporate loans, retail loans, etc.)




 for thos technical chart experts,


 just reverse the gold chart and tell me if it is not a perfect head & shoulder?


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:41 | 1983803 xela2200
xela2200's picture

"The central banksters cannot QE if they don't get the price of gold under control. They very well understand that if gold goes on another rocket ride like 2008-2009, their monopoly over money is game over. So right now, what we're seeing is those central banksters trying to set the ground for another round of QE, and they need gold to be unpopular to do that."

I was thinking the same thing. Could be some printing coming soon.

The CNBC rumor mill is full blast now. Thrashing gold. That means the sell off is bottoming. We will see.


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:02 | 1983098 trav7777
trav7777's picture

look...what has occurred should be mostly obvious.

European banks are in immense dollar liquidity stress.  Look at the EUR or DXY.  They have leased to sellers or sold outright against the dollar POG in order to raise dollars.  The collapse of lease rate is indicative of high interest by lessors, aka holders.

BB is holding the ECB hostage here.  Either they print or the fact that most of their debt is in USD destroys them.  Period.  Win/win.

Bear in mind that BANKS and hedge funds, even those physically holding client assets which may be physical gold bars, WILL sell anything they can for paper liquidity to stay alive.  To THEM, "cash is king" because those accounting figures are the difference between being employed and operating and not.

MFG's experience with rehypothecation and comingling are proof think MFG is the ONLY entity that did this?  LOL.  They are in the paper/eDollar world.  THAT is their god.  If you have an account with them and you want to hold physical gold, THEY do not care.  They will lease, rehypothecate, sell, what you own, even ILLEGALLY, to keep themselves alive.  This has happened again and again and again and we remain just SHOCKED that there is gambling going on in this establishment!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:11 | 1983114 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

That is a very short term view, and whilst I agree with it it is nothing more than what happened in the run up to Weimar.

The problem is that as more of this debt is liquidated there is less and less need for USD, and when the world realises this and begins to offload it, look out below.

That's where it all goes wrong.

Buy gold. It's the only way to be sure...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:16 | 1983157 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

The problem is that as more of this debt is liquidated there is less and less need for USD, and when the world realises this and begins to offload it, look out below.

It'll be a while.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:30 | 1983232 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

maybe, but it will still happen nonetheless...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:43 | 1983296 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

'Liquidating' or repaying dollar-debt extinguishes dollars. The result is a dollar shortage. This is what is taking place right now, leaves out the desire of those who hold non-currency assets to convert at whatever rate into currency.

With non-currency assets 100x the level of currency, the question is whether the monetary authorities are able -- or willing -- to keep up with the rate of deleveraging. Since 2007 until earlier this year, the answer has been yes, but with the fiscal 'authorities' meddling in monetary policy, the ability of central banks to meet the rate of redemption is now questionable.

The consequence is negative lease rates for a lot of things besides gold: real estate, wages, derivatives ... anything that isn't currency.

I personally believe monetary meddling is bad policy because there is no gain to it. Deleveraging is necessary but the same fiscal authorities who refuse to widen money access also refuse to engage in creditor restructuring. Chaotic deleveraging means all assets are wiped out in excess of base money, excess indebtedness is charged against output (GDP) and the result is a throwing out of the economic good ... with the bad.


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:01 | 1983383 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

Well said. Perspicuous. Maybe even clear enough that the hyper-inflationists can understand. The magnitude of the deleveraging will overwhelm the attempts of the CBs to print their way out. Once we've extinguished enough of the debt, then the danger of hyperinflation will be real.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 17:13 | 1984838 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

right but with ZIRPfinity,  getting dollars ain't all that hard for the blessed - this is more than manipulated,  it has been designed and modeled in all those megapetaflop supercomputers.


The huge amounts circling above can't be affected by the serfs resources.  The puppet show is in full effect

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:00 | 1984219 delacroix
delacroix's picture

the negative lease rate is a tell.  why buy, when you get paid to lease.  it's a paper lease. I believe the physical gold stays where it is, and the only thing changing hands, is a paper contract. just another layer of leveraged shorting.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:09 | 1983124 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Aside from this paragraph:

'BB is holding the ECB hostage here.  Either they print or the fact that most of their debt is in USD destroys them.  Period.  Win/win.'

Your post makes sense. ECB answers firstly to the Bundesbank secondly to the CB cabal. 'BB' is powerless when it comes to understanding European dynamics because he , like you, sees everything through the lens of market fundamentalism which is pure dogma.

You should probably wait for facts to slowly emerge before tying the known to the unknown.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:44 | 1983309 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

Define "market fundamentalism" in your sentence?!? I hope you don't mean "keynesian economectrics and mathematical abstract models"?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:30 | 1983517 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

In this context it means interpreting European socio-econo-political affairs by way of using US neo-liberal metrics. The EU = US formula doesn't work.

For the most part US media (MSM and otherwise) covers Europe only in the superficial context of 'what this means for us here'. They provide no historical context or broader view.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:55 | 1983607 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

eh! +1000

I would put it in other terms: the ECB is following a different consensus while the FED still has more room for maneuver - or even simpler, the ECB can only print a fraction of what BB can, period. For the usual reasons of not being a reserve currency, etc. BB leads.

OT: thanks for the endorsement of the Kyle Bass letters, just got though the last two and I agree with you, it's worthwhile to read them, even if I don't agree on all his points (perhaps "yet")

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:26 | 1983210 fuu
fuu's picture

Sums it up nicely.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:41 | 1983289 chubbar
chubbar's picture

The problem as I see it is that CB's or some official entity is leasing gold to be sold into the market place for liquidity reasons. Some might argue this is for price suppression purposes while others would argue it is to generate liquidity from an asset during a liquidity crunch. Obviously whomever is doing the leasing and selling this gold into the market has to be buying futures as an offsetting hedge, at least that is what I would think they'd do.

This doesn't resolve the problem of actually paying back the gold however. The gold that is sold into the market is not going to be recovered at anywhere near these prices plus this gold now has thousands of individual owners, so how are the gold leasors going to get gold, stand for delivery? At the comex? See the problem here? They are going to have to get REAL gold in bulk to payback the CB's or whomever. How much gold has been sold into the market from leased gold over the years? How much will it cost to get this gold back, assuming it is available, and how does this assist the leasor in anyway if they lose their ass in this transaction because the paper market has separated from the physical one? Do these folks really believe that just because they bought a future that it will always convert to physical? Don't they realize there is a finite amount of physical ANYTHING in this world and an infinite amount of claims that can be generated against that physical? I can't wait to hear the excuses when this ponzi blows up. Smartest guys in the room, my ass.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:35 | 1983549 ViewfromUnderth...
ViewfromUndertheBridge's picture

Paging Robert Rubin and Larry Summers...all your chickens are coming home to roost

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:56 | 1983647 Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture



If anyone is interested in reading ACCURATE commentary on why gold lease rates went negative, I suggest you take a look at the following link:

Max Fischer, Civis Mundi

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 17:05 | 1984782 AUD
AUD's picture

Tom is a smart guy but the article is still speculative. Taking it at face value the unallocated LBMA system would seem to be highly leveraged, central bank leasing utilising LBMA unallocated is leveraging it further, indeed leasing gold against assets too illiquid to even borrow dollars is destroying the balance sheet of the central bank, a la Asian Financial Crisis.

The central bank can lease unallocated gold 'off balance sheet' in limitless quantity but limitless quantity is no quality at all. Something will give one day, the balance sheet of central banks has been ruined even without the gold leasing.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:57 | 1983908 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

From Ed Steer today:

Silver analyst Ted Butler had a longish mid-week commentary for his clients yesterday....

"What I didn’t explain in my weekend commentary on Saturday was that the next logical downside trigger point in gold for selling by the technical funds and traders was the 200 day moving average ($1610). This particular moving average had not been broken in gold for almost three years, back to when gold was under $900. The longer a moving average remains unbroken, the more significance it holds to technical traders. This level has now been broken as well, encouraging those holding gold on technical or price movement grounds to sell. This selling begets other selling as fear of further losses resonates through the market as prices plunge. The price declines step up demands for more margin, prompting further long liquidation.

"Given human nature and our collective demand for easy to understand explanations for why prices are falling there will be, for sure, all manner of supply/demand explanations given to justify the price rout. But there have been scant signals from the real world of supply and demand to account for the decline in gold and silver prices. At the core, this is strictly another COMEX-commercial rig job. That it has been highly successful for the commercial crooks is unfortunate in many ways, but encouraging in other ways. The proof that it is another COMEX rig job is fairly easy to demonstrate in past and future Commitment of Traders Reports (COT), as the commercials are always big buyers on these price smashes. We have only gone down in price so that the commercial could buy. It’s not possible that the commercials can always be big buyers on such declines for any other plausible explanation. That the CFTC sits by, even though it has been armed with ne w anti-manipulative regulations is as shameful as it gets."

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:55 | 1983897 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture
So, Was MF Global Re-hypothecating Gold Bullion?

This accusation has gone viral within the gold community. It is based on a court filing by HSBC and surrounds the ownership of gold bullion held by a trustee for a client of MF Global. The speculation is that the gold had been re-hypothecated, resulting in a question of who is entitled to ownership.

But after digging into this story, reality is not quite as provocative as many have claimed. Here is a link to the actual Interpleader Complaint filed with the New York court.

Scroll down to section four where the sequence of events is spelled out. It is really straightforward stuff.
Bottom line: No gold has been hypothecated, re-hypothecated, or hyper-hypothecated. The dispute is between the trustee of the gold and the claimed owner of the gold. As is not uncommon in this sort of situation, as custodian of the bullion HSBC is stuck in the middle and is asking the court to decide to whom to release the gold so that it – HSBC – is not held liable by either party.
That MF Global is in bankruptcy and the case is filed with the bankruptcy court seems to be the bigger issue here. When a company enters bankruptcy protection, all decisions concerning how money or assets will be released or disposed of are made by the court, and it can be a lengthy procedure. That seems to be the case here, and in time the gold will make its way into the legally sanctioned hands.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 17:34 | 1984973 Thisson
Thisson's picture

RR: That was my take on the matter too.  ~Thisson

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:40 | 1983795 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I stopped reading at the "gold is a source of liquidity" line. Hold it if you are unnaturally attached to it I guess.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:43 | 1983817 split4to1
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:56 | 1983070 trav7777
trav7777's picture

why is it when gold went up it wasn't manipulation?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:57 | 1983077 tmosley
tmosley's picture

For his next dumb question, Trav will ask "Why doesn't gravity work on airplanes?"

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:59 | 1983083 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Question is 'who is there to manipulate it up, and what is the benefit?'

Gold just needs to find its fair price. That's all people are asking for I believe...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:05 | 1983113 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

You're kidding right? Trying to squeeze intelligence from a Grand Wizard.. this is obviously the Negroes fault like everything else to trav

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:09 | 1983125 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

everything does have a black market

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:13 | 1983141 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

His house is always the easiest tofind especially at night with all the burning crosses & empty plastic 1.75l generic Bourbon bottles on the lawn.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:19 | 1983174 trav7777
trav7777's picture

you idiots amaze me

you think the MSM is telling you the truth?  I state a FACT and you accuse me of hate.  That is why we call these "hate facts."

You people are delusional and dangerous. 

You have no idea how amusing I find all of you, in that you think you're outside the matrix because you can see the financial con and the larger society cannot, but there are levels of truth you are simply UNWILLING to even approach.  And you fight to stay IN the Matrix.

Doesn't it occur to you that almost all of the orthodoxy you encounter every single fucking day is propaganda?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:22 | 1983186 tmosley
tmosley's picture

The media also says the sky is blue.  Must be a lie!

lol, Trav thinks he's Neo.  Or maybe he's MORPHEUS!  LOL.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:42 | 1983295 scratch_en_sniff
scratch_en_sniff's picture

Hit him with your Matrix school satchel mosley, batter that dirty rascist.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:05 | 1983403 trav7777
trav7777's picture

good can test whether they are lying by doing investigation into the facts.

You refuse to do that with things you WANT to believe.  You just accept.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:37 | 1983557 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Yet you just "accept" the "fact" that black IQs are low with no further investigation necessary.  No need to examine the methodology.  No need to repeat the experiments.  Nothing.

You just accept.  

1. Hear what you want to hear.

2. Know only what you heard.

3. ???

4. Racially pure world!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:43 | 1983815 trav7777
trav7777's picture

um, what?

I examine the DATA for and against.  You do not.  You ignore it.

The experiments have been repeated several HUNDRED times and have all shown the same thing.

But, no, the MSM and libtard message of equality is correct.  SURELY this must be the case, right?  It just HAS TO BE.

Just like the economy HAS to get better and we just HAVE to find a way to pump more oil.  Right?

You idiot.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:31 | 1984366 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Whatever helps you sleep (alone) at night.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 16:43 | 1984544 akak
akak's picture

Trav, you are nothing but a bitter, hateful, racist piece of absolute shit, using dubious or irrelevant facts to buttress your massive hate and ignorant racial prejudice.  I have often wondered, in fact, if you might not be a Sunstein-inspired troll sent here to spread your racist hate in the attempt to discredit this site.

Even IF blacks, say, were collectively less intelligent that whites, so fucking what?  What does that mean for real-world policy?  What do you propose we do in response to that "fact"?  Let's just euthanize them?  The fact that you constantly harp on such data (assuming that it IS honest data) implies that you are proposing some public or governmental response to your stupid-nigger theory; otherwise, such data is meaningless.  So what are your policy proposals in light of the stupid niggers?  You clearly must have some such public or social responses in mind --- and if you do not, them shut the fuck up about it.

I, unlike you, am not a collectivist, and neither judge nor dare prescribe public policies based on (possible) group characteristics, choosing instead to deal with people as individuals.  If blacks commit more murders than whites, then the justice system will handle that situation by dealing with them individually AS each commits a crime --- the statistics of their murder rate are irrelevant.  And as for possible lesser intelligence of one group compared to another, I cannot imagine why anyone would obsess over such data unless they had the sort of collectivist goals of such upstanding visionaries as the Nazis or the Khmer Rouge.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:24 | 1983196 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

You're assuming I read illiterate psychotic ramblings written by racists with penis envy. Congratulations on proving your immense stupidity yet again. Like you can do anything else anyway. At least Robo is funny.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:29 | 1983225 fuu
fuu's picture

It's harder to notice without the use of the words doomers and goons.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:51 | 1983329 trav7777
trav7777's picture

you're replying to someone you claim is one...check

you are a monkey with cymbals; I twist the key

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:23 | 1983485 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

... er ... you are responding to 1983174 don't cha' know. - Ned

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:26 | 1983209 donsluck
donsluck's picture

I am interested in your answer. Who do you think benefits from manipulating PMs up?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:39 | 1983278 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

Because it's not a market, and central banks have immense powers to suppress PM prices, the only people who can MAKE PM prices rise are the central bankers themselves.  PMs just rose @20% a year for a decade, even during the housing bubble.  Does anyone believe the gold bugs accomplished this?  Does anyone think it went unnoticed BY CENTRAL BANKS?  The reason there wasn't a 1980 style smack down was because they were the one's buying.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:08 | 1983417 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Anyone who has them would benefit.  There are a wide range of parties who could benefit.

Look, understand petitio principii...don't rush into a QUESTION already having assumed the answer.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:28 | 1983211 oddjob
oddjob's picture

Coming from a peak oil quaker saying we are all goin to starve tomorrow, you are equally as amusing.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:27 | 1983214 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

we're delusional, dangerous AND derogatory. We just spread the insults across all skin colors.  

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:39 | 1983277 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

You burned too many bridges brah. There are plenty of poor good black and brown folk out there. They are your brothers and sisters. Go out and know them and help them. Come back and I'm sure many here would forgive you. I would.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:04 | 1983392 trav7777
trav7777's picture

blacks have lower IQ than whites on average.

Do you REALLY hear "I hate blacks" when I write this?  Honest question...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:13 | 1983448 tmosley
tmosley's picture

When you call black looting "looting", but call white and asian looting "doing what is necessary", your true nature is revealed.

Further, your refusal to take culture and the degree of government oppression/coddling into account when examining differences between races renders your entire argument moot.  You say "look at Africa, look at Africa", but you never look at Southeast Asia or Maoist China to see how far they sank under oppressive regimes, nor did you care to think about the effect that would have on mental processes if it were to continue for multiple generations.  You refuse to examine the effects of coddling of Indians on reservations in America, versus those who are not coddled in South America (but still oppressed).

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:24 | 1983479 trav7777
trav7777's picture

You didn't answer the question.  You think you can put up strawmen like this "looting" shit, but that's not going to work.  People notice everytime you do that, moron.  And you just look foolish.

I never said white looting wasn't looting...don't put words in my mouth, cunt.

Culture comes from PEOPLE.  It doesn't fall out of the sky.

Southeast mean the place where Katrina didn't happen after a fuckin tsunami that killed 10,000x the number of people?

Coddled but still oppressed?  ROTFL...based on WHAT?  You slipped in a petitio principii again...that's all you seem to be capable of.  You have ASSUMED the conclusion before you state the thesis and you make a nice circular argument.

The injuns didn't have the written word or wheel when whitey arrived.  WHY IN THE HELL would you expect them to just GRASP that which they DID NOT grasp?  Same with africans.  They are collectively operating at the level they're capable of, expressing a culture in the aggregate which reflects their collective attributes.

Injuns in the US and injuns in S. is the difference?  In both places, they are near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.  This is a simple fact.

Again, you DID NOT answer the question.  In fact, you seem to CONCEDE it and then start going into possible THEORIES as to why it could be true.  Of course, they all ignore natural causes.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:44 | 1983591 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Uhh, yeah, you did.  You said specifically that the Japanese didn't loot after the tsunami.  But they did.  It is well documented.  This is not a strawman, it is documentation of your double standards.

How can people be both coddled and opressed, you ask?  Ever hear of COMMUNISM?  Get free shit from government, get beaten and murdered if you speak up.

Indians DID have the written word, you fucking idiot.  I guess Aztec and Maya pictographs don't exist in your little world.  They didn't have the wheel because there were no beasts of burden in the New World.  I guess next you will look down on them for not having developed the saddle.

lol, you think indians don't make up the entire population of Mexico.  They don't exactly look like blond haired blue eyed Spanish, or even Moors.

But I don't know why I bother responding.  Your venom proves my point for me.  You HATE based on RACE.  You are incapable of judging people based on their individual character.  You scream and cry about genetics and DNA and inherent differences while at the same time knowing NOTHING about ANY of it.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:47 | 1983837 trav7777
trav7777's picture

pictographs aren't the written word. 

Japanese looting after the tsunami...LOL.  Yeah, they were carrying fuckin TVs down mainstreet and filmed inside wall mart emptying out the place with several uniformed police officers.  WTF, you ever just step back and look at how stupid the shit you say is?

The rulers in latin america are whiter and blonder...the lower classes are browner.  This is even true in Africa.  There is so much in evolutionary biology that is a mental 3rd rail for people like you and it's packin a lotta amps.

Best to just keep chanting your mantra.

Dunno wtf any of this has to do with individuals, but that was a nonsequitur...and I told your stupid ass that a general statement is not a specific one.  Just STFU already, moron.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 14:13 | 1984000 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Hmmm, better call up the Egyptians then and give them a downgrade.  Serves them right, since they are a buch of Africans anyways, right?

But what of the exaulted Chinese, who's written language is no more than stylized pictographs?  Perhaps I should downgrade them as well.

Yes, the Japs didn't loot Walmart, maybe because they don't have Walmart in Japan?  Hmm.  But they do have breweries.  And ATM machines.  Let's see how they did:

But hey, I'll tell you what.  You love Asians so much, and think they are so superior, I will gladly buy you a one way ticket to Myanmar.  You can go and live in the glory of your Asian overlords forever!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:19 | 1984320 trav7777
trav7777's picture

yeah, read: "Most of the looting incidents appear to target necessities in tight supply after the disaster, such as food and gasoline, rather than durable goods" unlike Katrina or LA.  You know, where blacks were taking TVs and merchandise and apparel and shit.

Don't even try to compare the two, you fucking retard.  You just make yourself look even stupider.

And Egypt had heiroglyphs  That was 5000 years ago.  And, no, Egyptians were not black.

Why don't you buy yourself a one-way ticket to an asylum before you lose anyone else half their life's savings?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:33 | 1984375 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Right, I didn't realize that beer and ATM cash were necessities.  I'll keep that in mind.

The Mayans developed writing two thousand years ago, completely independently of the Old World.

And yes, the Upper Egyptians were black, dumbass.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 17:27 | 1984896 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

"egyptians were not black" -  a perfect example of yet another oversimplification of humans, "race," and intelligence

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:23 | 1983496 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

IQ is a faulty measure of intellectual capability at best.  There are so many variables that affect scoring in schools and on standardized tests that there results are not indicative of actual intelligence.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:26 | 1983513 trav7777
trav7777's picture

non sequitur.

And wrong at any rate.

This is what you morons can't escape...that average test results ARE probative, strongly so, of socioeconomic outcome of a society.  There's no way around that.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:33 | 1983769 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Although i in general don't like you trav, i do agree with you on race and culture.  Who are the fastest humans at the Olympics?  Blacks.  It is a characteristic of their race.  Races have characteristics, and to deny this is to fall victim to policy.  The thing i've learned traveling, is that culture is everything.  How a people react to bad situations is a function of culture.  Look at the Orange Revolution in Ukraine a few years ago.  It was a freaking fashion neckties, orange extremely non-aggressive, non-confrontational culture, overthrowing their government. 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:48 | 1983842 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

You are basing IQ, created by whitey, for whitey, as being the measure of intelligence for everyone, including whitey. This makes you unobservant, xenophobic, and rigid.   You don't speak of smarts, creativity, learning, common sense or other measures of actual intelligence. Perhaps you don't recognize them.  You seem to believe things that can't be proven, or were created with the goal to overturn a fact proven by science.   You seem to have grown/learned with a bias that few here understand.  Don't expect hate speech to be understood, for some of us don't share your bent.


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 14:00 | 1983921 trav7777
trav7777's picture

then why do asians outscore whitey, you fucking IDIOT?

Look, moron...people LIKE white societies.  They LIKE the shit white people come up with.  They LIKE and WANT our version of civilization.

So even IF IQ was tailor-made for whitey, it doesn't's a PERFECT indicator at that point of SUCCESS because when cultures COMPETE, the favorable one WINS!  Blacks don't like black culture either!  They LIKE being OPPRESSED with refrigeration, modern medicine, and electric power.

You dipshits are in such deep water here, you cannot even fathom it.

Blacks aren't any good at any of the rest of that shit either.  They didn't "create" the wheel or "learn" the math, or "common sense" that you can't cure AIDS by raping a virgin.

There's a fucking REASON their culture is a failure and NOBODY wants to live like they do, ok?  Evolution is law, bud...there's no way around that.  I'll stand behind the geneticists and pscyhometricists and the forensic anthropologists, the biologists, and all the rest of the scientific community.

You can stand with the MSM and the SPLC.  I'd like to know what science you speak of...because all of the science goes AGAINST what you say.  JFC, we already went over this crap last week.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 16:12 | 1984518 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

yeah, whitey hates everything black "culture" puts out, therefore, black culture has "failed." Funny. On that note, if the banker is a whitey then an important part of whitey's "culture" is a failure too no?  Or, if whitey runs the place cause whitey is smarter and whitey is too dumb to plan for peak oil then whitey failed another test too didn't he?. Or if whitey runs world agriculture...well I'd go on but I think whitey has scored pretty low in a lot of categories and a lot of lab tests. You can claim they're just brilliant criminals but the success of their systems, like IQ, is a valid way to, as you say "measure something."    

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:23 | 1983497 longonSpam
longonSpam's picture

That makes one of us. Once a squid always a squid, once a Klansman always a Klansman. Not everybody gets salvation.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:23 | 1983739 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Doesn't it occur to you that almost all of the orthodoxy you encounter every single fucking day is propaganda?

Yes it does.  That being said why do you list a few more examples aside from race / financial news where you see propaganda.  Enlighten us. 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:48 | 1983841 trav7777
trav7777's picture

here's an easy signpost for you, look for my writing on here that has the most red arrows

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 17:31 | 1984951 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

I hear the same intelligence measurement works for bailouts, immunity and Patriot Acts

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:22 | 1983185 trav7777
trav7777's picture

petitio principii

It was a rhetorical question, you moron.  If you see me asking the likes of you people a question, you can safely assume I already know the fucking answer.

ZH is just another matrix

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:23 | 1983192 tmosley
tmosley's picture

lol, you don't like the answer, so now it is a rhetorical question.

You are the biggest goober in the internet.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:07 | 1983413 trav7777
trav7777's picture

huh?  You don't know what petitio principii even is, do you?

Every fucking day metals DON'T go up, you idiots bleat about manipulation.  You have ASSUMED the conclusion!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:15 | 1983460 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You are an idiot.  You assume that a vector force only exists when it is in the same direction as the net force.  This is the same as claiming that gravity only works on a plane when it is coming down, not when it is going up.  The gravity was ALWAYS THERE, you fucking idiot.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:29 | 1983521 trav7777
trav7777's picture


Dude, is it possible for you to even be COHERENT?

To use the airplane analogy, LIFT manipulates it upward in opposition to gravity.  The analogy isn't even any good.

You cannot ASSUME manipulation, you even fucking GRASP what petitio principii IS?  Yes, that was another rhetorical question...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:47 | 1983598 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No shit.  Now examine your own argument.  Manipulation doesn't disappear when the price rises, any more than gravity disappears when a plane rises.

You assume that I assume manipulation, rahter than having noted it from years of observation and discussion with experts, not to mention fucking government reports on the subject.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:49 | 1983852 trav7777
trav7777's picture

what experts?  You mean booktalkers, right?

People who want to sell you something, pumpers?

You are too easy, Cliff.  Just keep blabbering at the bar.  Imagining and hoping and strenuously wishing that you'll GET RICH QUICK off of silver.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:35 | 1983254 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

"the likes of you people"

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:54 | 1983341 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

An easy mistake to make is confusing good value with a good deal.

It's reasonable to argue PMs are a good value, no need to insist on it always being a good deal at all times.

Its reasonable to consider gold NOT being a good deal + $1,500/oz. certainly not @ + $1,900/oz. Value includes money-worth and other things besides. For example, gold is a natural resource that cannot be burned up in a car engine. Owning gold is a way to short resource waste in the way owning paper money is not.

You have to think outside the $xxx per ounce straitjacket.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:28 | 1984353 delacroix
delacroix's picture


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:37 | 1983267 Eally Ucked
Eally Ucked's picture

His question has a merit. Probably there is manipulation, at least I'm covinced there is, but price of gold and silver should go up in step with economic situation (in normal market) but sometimes it looks even to me a bit crazy because all those freeloaders get on the bandwagon. When they unload we have sell-off.  

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:59 | 1983087 Quintus
Quintus's picture

When I see JPM with a market dominating long position, then I will believe that price is being manipulated upwards to their benefit.


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:59 | 1983091 grey7beard
grey7beard's picture

>> manipulation?

I'll have to read the article again, but for the life of me I don't remember seeing the article mention manipulation.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:08 | 1983123 Iriestx
Iriestx's picture

Wow, that's the dumbest question I've ever read here at AH.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:12 | 1983140 Campagnolo
Campagnolo's picture

trav: Gold price should be around $3000 at this point. The running up is just market acting for itself, is people been afraid of all the mess we are in and you now very fucking well that there is no way out of it. The system is broke. We have to start again.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:09 | 1983423 trav7777
trav7777's picture

"should" be?  According to WHOM, YOU?

A bunch of people talking their fucking BOOK?

Why is it that you people cling to truths for which you have NO EMPIRICAL basis for belief?  Maybe there IS an empirical basis out there, but you haven't gone looking for it; you just assume it.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 14:06 | 1983959 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Interesting discussion, fellas.  Frankly, I don't know what the "price" of gold should be.  If it goes to $1 or up to $5,000, in either scenario, the larger turds have already hit the fan.   It's the same problem to me.  The dollar (I choke on the word) amount needed to get an ounce becomes irrelevant.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:25 | 1983206 scratch_en_sniff
scratch_en_sniff's picture

Its a Freudian thing trav, when mummy market is going up and giving them lots of lovely teat, they assume they are so deserving of the teat. But when the market taketh away, ohhhh, then the tantrums start. Where is my tit, WHO STOLE MY TIT???!!!

"The market is not your mother." - Alexander Elder



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:21 | 1983483 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture


Coming to Trav's defense....sort of.


Gold reflects the RISK FREE elements of the economy. What are they? Basically the food, clothing and shelter already in possession and use by people. The corrolary of FCS is cash. Total gold "value" (and I use the word "value" with trepedation) tracks total global cash "value" almost exactly... why? Because cash is risk-free. Or at least, it was, or, at the VERY least, is still veiwed this way by most people.


Everybody that buys gold wants to see the price go up. If Trav's Q is stupid, it is only because the answer is so obvious. But gold buyers are the ones who are really stupid (That line should get me 50 junks, all by itself), because they think that any nominal increase in Gold price means the value of gold has also gone up. But the value of gold, as defined by its purchasing power, remains constant.


We will never see the over-leveraged CRIMEX crash due to physical delivery demands it cannot meet. This will never happen. The world's greatest counter-intuitive mind-fuck is the perpetual notion that gold has intrinsic value. Gold is merely a vehicle for the delivery of "value". So is paper, so are electric currents. But gold has the uncanny ability to reflect, with some accuracy, the intrinsic value of what  of what people really have.


Who wants to manipulate gold prices up? Everybody who wants gold to reflect the "value" of equities, derivatives, bonds, and all other forms of debt. When was the last time you put on a coat made out of derivatives, or used stock certificates as fuel for your car?


Gold's great usefullness is that it (for mysterious reasons I cannot  understand) reflects a foundational reality about human economy. if we could all get gold to reflect debt and risk, gold would go to 30,000/oz overnight. But it will never do this, despite all the wishing in blogs and ZH comments everywhere.


CRIMEX is surely workiing to depress the price of gold, but for all its devious machinations, it can only do so much. But really, it doesn't have to, the gold price is a natural phenomenon. The price of gold HAS to drop, because the amount of what people really have is dropping. The risk of everything is increasing, and the rock-solid, immutable elements of the economy are withering. Gold wil always reflect agricultural production, for example, but it will never reflect Eurobonds or MF Global shares. Today, there is risk in food production that was never there before. The increase in risk, (and gold valuation abhors risk), means a comensurate decrease in the value of what is RISK FREE. What is sure and constant? Not much any more. Look for gold prices to come down.


The same people who think gold has intrinsic value also think that as the riskiness of the economy increases, the price of gold will increase. It's another counter-intuitive mistake, and it leads to continual perplexity in the minds of gold-bugs everywhere, because they don't understand gold, despite, or because of, their infatuation with it. From this perplexity comes the CRIMEX conspircay theories. Better to see conspiracies in the bond and derivative markets, wher they really exist.


Travis asks a question that tells me he suspects that everything he thinks he knows about gold is wrong. Good on you, Trav!







Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:33 | 1983536 trav7777
trav7777's picture


Is there even ONE of you out there who can think logically?  I liked much of what you wrote until you veered off onto this CRIMEX moonbattery

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:48 | 1983604 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I'm sure you will find much more "logical thinking" on the yahoo finance forums.  Lots of people there in cash just like you!  You're in good company, Trav.


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:51 | 1983863 trav7777
trav7777's picture

anyone in cash since $49 can pick up nearly twice as much as your precious silver, IDIOT

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 14:16 | 1984014 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Uh-huh, sure you can.  Until it is gone, and there is no more.  But you think you can time that well, I guess.  Sort of like looting the Titanic.

Enjoy all the diamonds while you flounder in Davy Jone's locker, idiot.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:22 | 1984330 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Here you are talking about the FUTURE when your previous attempts at prognostication have failed so miserably?

I can't tell you about a year from now, Cliff, but I can tell you about TODAY.

And TODAY, that stack of cash buys nearly double the amount of your precious silver.

Game.  Set.  Match.

Now, STFU and go away.  I don't have arguments with people who are broke, having lost half their life's savings in the span of a few months.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:37 | 1984393 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Sept 2008:  tmosley makes the stunning prediciton that silver will be more valuable in the future.

Today: It is, and it is by EVERY standard of measurement, even before his thesis comes to fruition.

But you are biased, so I really only started talking about it when silver was at $49, and for some reason, millions of people listened to me at that one moment and put all of their money into silver, causing the price to collapse (lol).

I'm not going anywhere, bitch.  You want an audience that will agree with you, and won't challenge you dumbassed theories, go kidnap your ex and your kids.  Maybe have a nice murder-suicide thing.  The world will be better off.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:46 | 1984430 trav7777
trav7777's picture

kidnap my kids?  Huh...they fuckin live with me.

Yet ANOTHER prediction that falls flat on its face from Cliff...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:26 | 1983208 In Fed We Trust
In Fed We Trust's picture

What about a portable Bloomberg Radio to keep up on the trading and check into ZH?

Or is this the time to stop trading weapons of mass destruction?

Tyler how about doing an AM radio show. You could report from the front lines and scramble your voice, to keep your anomity of course.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:46 | 1983033 homer8043
homer8043's picture

Dammit, I wanted a better deal.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:47 | 1983036 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I dont really pay much attention to gold and silver in dollars.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:53 | 1983044 achmachat
achmachat's picture

for the existing stash... of course.

but it sure feels better when there's 100 ounces of silver more in your monthly purchase, just because that month your fiat buys more of it.



edit: for the record... I don't buy silver. this is just purely hypothetical. and the little I used to have all got lost during a very very unfortunate boating accident!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:52 | 1983334 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

I must have been on vaca when this whole boating accident joke started. Where did it come from? The most honorable Turd?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:06 | 1983118 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

1oz of Gold can purchase a 1 HP Steam Engine and Boiler suitable for 500 watts of electrical power production.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:09 | 1983128 achmachat
achmachat's picture

fascinating! ever since I had a (working) model steam engine as a kid in the 80s, I've loved these things.

to all the parents reading this: try getting your kids interested in things where they learn how stuff works... it's skills for life!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:47 | 1983315 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Awesome. Thanks!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:07 | 1983120 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

good dog.  Funny CNBC / Onion headline this morning: "Stocks open higher on economic hopes"

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:20 | 1983175 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

That's what drives the markets: hope vs fear. Fear will win in 2012. Andy maybe Ron Paul, too.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:25 | 1983505 Au_Ag_CuPbCu
Au_Ag_CuPbCu's picture

Yes and no.  I don't give a shit about the price until it starts getting cheep, then I do care because while I may not have giant stacks of FRNs like our trillionaire troll Travis (TTT) I do have some FRNs just waiting for these wonderful opportunities that are present in all bull markets.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:48 | 1983039 youngman
youngman's picture

I agree this was the reason..its a way for a bank to raise cash...and they needed it fast...yes yes yes ..track this stat because it will be used again and again

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:49 | 1983041 sabra1
sabra1's picture

The Tale of Jamie Dimon Threatening To Blow the Brains Right Out Of Jon Corzine’s Head

Our story begins with former Goldman Sachs CEO, former Senator, former Governor, the CEO of MF Global Jon Corzine. Jon Corzine being a rather simple fellow and not used to running an investment firm like MF Global, (disregard that he used to be the CEO of Goldman Sachs), was speculating with MF Globals money. Low and behold, after only running MF Global for about a year and a half, poor Jon Corzine had accumulated over $1 Billion in losses. Realizing that he had made this big boo boo and was not going to be able to make good on loans that MF Global had outstanding, poor Jon Corzine called up Jamie Dimon, the powerful leader of the five families, er, I mean the CEO of JP Morgan Chase. Jon Corzine carefully explained to Jamie Dimon that although he was very very sorry, he would not be able to pay back the paltry billion or so dollars that MF Global owed JP Morgan Chase. Much to Jon Corzine’s complete shock, Jamie Dimon then informed him, “You will raid the deposits that are in the accounts of your customers and pay me back.” He then said in a very deadly voice, a voice that stung Jon Corzine to the very bone, (can’t say soul, he probably doesn’t have one), “If you do not do as I say, you will swim with the fishes” and then Jamie Dimon hung up. Jon Corzine, a visibly shaken man, then authorized the theft of over $1 Billion dollars from MF Globals customer accounts and the money transferred to the Godfather, er I mean, Jamie Dimon the most powerful banker in the world.

The preceding story is as told by Max Keiser to Alex Jones, with a few embellishments thrown in by me. The embellishments in this short tale may make it seem rather humerus, but in truth, these people are deadly and that is how they are operating. Kind of a truth is stranger than fiction. Many an ordinary person doing their banking on a daily basis at JP Morgan Chase or investing with Goldman Sachs, will realize that they are dealing with mafia like organizations that are just as ruthless, just as deadly and 100 times smarter than Michael Corleone in the Godfather

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:21 | 1983165 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

"So the next day, my father went to see him; only this time with Luca Brasi. An' within an hour, he signed a release, for a certified check for $1000. [Kay: "How'd he do that?"] My father made him an offer he couldn't refuse. [Kay: "What was that?"] Luca Brasi held a gun to his head and my father assured him that either his brains, or his signature, would be on the contract. That's a true story. That's my family, Kay, it's not me."

inflation is a bitch

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:50 | 1983046 Quintus
Quintus's picture

" is all too easy for entities that do have liquidity to game the spread and force sell offs by those who are telegraphing they are in dire straits and will sell their gold at any price if forced, to prevent a liquidity collapse."

But, but Art Cashin just said this was all normal selling due to margin requirements, etc, etc, etc.

Now who would be so unethical as to rip off counterparties with Gold to lease out like this?  Who could possibly use their massive short positions to manipulate the paper market to ensure that the leased gold could be returned for a whacking great profit after forcing a price collapse?  Who indeed.



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:52 | 1983332 flattrader
flattrader's picture


I think Turd got it right yesterday

Art Cashin...dispensing fatherly calm the bagholders rhetoric for decades...a favorite face on CNBC.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:50 | 1983047 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

The snapback will be a bitch for Roubini & Co.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:50 | 1983048 Doomsday Profit
Doomsday Profit's picture

PMs should be viewed as insurance....nothing more, nothing less.  Those trying to profit from a rigged game controlled by desperate men will always be shocked into submission. 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:51 | 1983050 bnbdnb
bnbdnb's picture

Gold moves over last 10 year. Check out liquidity action in 2008.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:51 | 1983053 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

WTF is it my internet, or is the DOW up +100 while SP is down -13? Some kind of wild disconnect there.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:53 | 1983060 Quintus
Quintus's picture

It's your data feed, I'm afraid.  Both are in the Green.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:29 | 1983228 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

Your internet must be 3 hours fast...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:52 | 1983054 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Not seein much here

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:00 | 1983071 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That's because you're blind, Trav.  Probably from constantly jerking off to thoughts of mass sterilization.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:04 | 1983109 trav7777
trav7777's picture

this site is amazing...a sort of capsule summary of wider society.

You were wrong.  You are a moron.  Your predictions didn't come true; in fact, the opposite did.

Yet here you are calling ME blind and a lot of people would AGREE with you.  You could probably win a VOTE despite having been asininedly assbackwardly WRONG about nearly EVERYTHING.

The facts just don't matter...and you idiots cannot even step back and see how you are JUST THE SAME as the wider population, who you deride as unenlightened.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:12 | 1983137 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Since I started buying silver, silver has risen 260%.  Anyone fading my calls has gone bankrupt At LEAST 6 times.  Ayone following my advice is up about 90% if they value their silver by the current spot value.  Not only that, they have collected a very large stockpile.  Meanwhile, those following your "all in dollars" plan have lost about 50% of their purchasing power.

The only one paying attention to the votes here is you, Trav.  Insecure much?  Because you should be.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:27 | 1983215 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

And anyone who followed my slv puts in April was up over 100%.


Of course, that very same call you derided whilst you bought "truckloads" at $49.


All those gains from that slv put?  I just put a nice chunk into gold at these lower prices.  The prices you should have been waiting for before scooping some up.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:40 | 1983282 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Anyone?  What of those who bought through MF Global?

Didn't think about exchange risk, did you?  You still aren't, even with it staring you right in the face.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:58 | 1983352 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

Unfortunately (for you), I am familiar with the strawman argument.


Change the subject all you want, it does not change that you had one $hitty call to buy silver at $49.  What made it even $hittier was that you couldn't stop attacking me for recommending to buy puts on it.


Bottom line, anyone following your advice to buy at $49 is now down almost 50%.  While those who followed my advice were up over 100% and are in a position to now buy a lot more.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:01 | 1983379 tmosley
tmosley's picture

How is exchange risk a strawman in an argument about who is making money by investing via an exchange?

You also forget that I made several reccomendations for ways to profit from playing paper which were just as profitable as yours and a LOT safer.  I choose not to expose myself to exchange risk, just as I choose not to expose myself to counterparty risk.  I don't play hide-and-seek in burning buildings.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:23 | 1983499 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

Exchange risk was not a factor in picking a top for silver.  Apparently a 50% drop was a MUCH higher risk than the collapse of my brokerage fund.

I made a call, it was a 100% gain.  You made a call, it was a 50% loss. 


Those who followed my advice would have 4x the amount of money of those who followed your advice.  Bleat all you want, spew your vitriolic attacks all you wish, muddy the water and change the subject.  It changes nothing.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:49 | 1983608 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Call me back in a year.  If your account hasn't gone MF Global, I will FedEx you a cookie.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:14 | 1983704 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

Is that your new prediction?  That a slew of brokerages will go tits up?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:40 | 1983796 tmosley
tmosley's picture

New prediction?  That has always been my prediction, or at least a part of it.  All paper will be stolen or otherwise devalued to nothing.  Why do you think I have told people not to play in paper markets?  There is no telling what the kleptocrats will try to pull.  Much better to have it in your hand, where it can't be taken from you an thousands of others with a few keystrokes.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:50 | 1983854 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

I can understand that argument and agree with it to a point.

I have physical, but I also can make much much more in the paper markets, so I like to keep some honey in both pots.

Take the excess paper earnings and turn them into physical to keep a balance.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:33 | 1983221 trav7777
trav7777's picture

I said to go to dollars when silver was at 49, MORON.

You said to "back up the truck" and "buy with both fists" for an "imminent Comex default" and "$60 by next week."

The more the mania ran, the more breathless were your calls to BUYBUYBUY. 

You were on here last week telling everyone to buy buy buy no matter what...and here we are with the price's having collapsed AGAIN.  It's like God is watching you and making the opposite of whatever you say happen.  You're like a Cassandra except more like Castupid.

As for votes, I've NEVER cared who junks me.  The reason for that is that the TRUTH is unpopular.  The more I push you idiots onto your mental 3rd rails, the harder you resist and the more angry you become.  You're like fucking trained dogs.

I can state one hate fact and yank the chain of the whole mass of you.  The FUNNIEST part is that you believe yourselves enlightened.  You actually maintain cognitively dissonant states, and seem to believe the MSM only tells you the truth on stuff you WANT to believe.  You're so afraid of even VIRTUAL social ostracism that you will lie, accept lies, follow liars, and self-destruct.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:39 | 1983274 tmosley
tmosley's picture

For someone who doesn't care, you sure do blather on about it a lot.  Not to mention that you bring it up out of the blue.

I like how you remain immune to the meaning of the term "dollar cost averaging".  What will you do if we have something like MF Global, but much larger (say, the size of the CME) happen tomorrow?  You will be stuck with your thumb up your ass in cash while the prices of commodoties become meaningless in the failure of the exchange.  You won't be able to buy ANYTHING.

Also, you are the only one here who is angry.  You just project your anger onto all of us because you can't face the fact that you are a failure as a father and as a husband, and your ex is now taking big black dick three times a day, and her jew divorce lawyer is rolling around in all the money he got from you in the divorce.

But you keep at it, Morpheus.  Surely one day we wil all awaken from the Matrix and buy dollars.  lol

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:57 | 1983357 Rodolfito
Rodolfito's picture

LOL, it's true though, why so much negative energy? Simple but revealing question.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!