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North Korea Has Allegedly Tested Nuclear Warheads For Iran

Tyler Durden's picture


What is one sure thing sure to set triggerhappy warmonger fingers in the US and Israel on Defcon 1 more than the word Iran? The words Iran and North Korea. How about three nouns that will send crude soaring by at least $10 the second a CL trading algo sees them fly across Bloomberg? Try "Iran" "North Korea" and "Nukes." And if the following report just released by the Wiener Zeitung is even remotely correct, then Israel, the military industrial complex, and crude are all about to go ballistic, not necessarily in that order. 

According to one of Europe's most famous newspapers, which in turn references a report in Welt am Sontag, North Korea has conducted at least two nuclear warhead tests in 2010, of which was on behalf of Iran. "This could mean that with North Korea's help Tehran may already have a tested nuclear warhead....According to the newspaper "Welt am Sonntag", this assumption is based on data from the Organization of the contract for the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban. Accordingly, the Swedish nuclear physicist Lars-Erik De Geer uses data from monitoring stations in South Korea, Japan and Russia and believes that North Korea instead of uranium, used plutonium in two prior secret tests as far back as in 2006 and 2009." What is striking here is the effluvience of meaningless innuendo and baseless allegations. But this certain plant may well be the false flag straw that breaks the camel's back. While it is unclear if it was planted by the US or Israel is irrelevant, it has one simple mission - to preempt even more irrationality by Iran, a day after its parliamentary election has put president Ahmedinajad in power vacuum limbo, with his chief opponent gaining vast popular support. Which is precisely what is needed to validate a response.

More from the Austrians, google translated:

The longtime director of the Policy Planning Staff in the German Defense Ministry, Hans Rühle, writes in the "Welt am Sonntag" that "some of which now go out intelligence that North Korea has actually conducted a nuclear test in 2010, at least for Iran.

Supposedly this means that all military operations now will take for granted that the axis of uber-evil, i.e., North Korea and Iran, now just can't wait to shoot ICBMs at every capital in the "free and democratic" western world, just because they "hate it for its freedoms" [sic].

One does not have to be a rocket scientist to realize that this is simply yet another media fallback alibi to justify an offensive incursion into Iran, if and when it is required. The only question is if the global deflationary collapse (ala Lehman) will happen before or after, which in turn, as John Taylor wrote a few days ago, will then be promptly followed by the (luckily) terminal central planning hyper-reflation experiment.

In the meantime, let the crude liberation begin.

h/t JohnGaltFla


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Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:22 | 2221054 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Shit gets real.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:35 | 2221084 true brain
true brain's picture

More propaganda that only sheeple can fall for. Prove to me which ship took the nuclear war head from Iran to North Korea. when, where. etc. How about analysis of nuclear isotope proving that the stuff in North Korea came from Iran.Yeah it's like the U.S. with its satellites would sit idlly by when Iran transports nuclear material to North Korea.

Come on. Israel can attack if they want to; just don't feed me these b.s. propaganda.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:39 | 2221184 Followmelightbulb
Followmelightbulb's picture

Someone really wants a war badly!!!!!


Obama says, `Nobody's Announced a War, Young Lady'

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:55 | 2221208 The Peak Oil Poet
The Peak Oil Poet's picture





Blair and Bush and Big John Howard
Sophist, crook and little coward
Sick in mind and word and deed
slaves of fear and fame and greed

Kings they are in their own sight
but kings who never lead a fight
all they know is how to lie
and how to let poor people die

many thousands have they killed
and many coffers have they filled
these men of rank these men of means
these men who've killed so many dreams

they led us to Iraq and war
with lies they led us, lies and more
they sanctioned children to their death
they curry hate with every breath

and soon, who knows, Iran maybe
through secret friends the Israeli
or open warfare waged with nukes
and covered up by lying spooks

and all to keep the dollar strong
and oil flowing right or wrong
the fiat dollar doomed to hell
and oil doomed to peak as well

and housing bubbles due to burst
but that's not all and not the worst
the population's doomed to fall
and climate change will kill us all

and in the midst of all this shit
our lying leaders do their bit
at home they laugh and joke and play
their victims, many, die each day

but do they care? no not one bit
these scumbag leaders full of shit
these men who kill and just with words
these men are cunts these men are turds

Blair and Bush and Big John Howard
Sophist, crook and little coward
killers, thieves, and fucking liars
it's time they wore Soweto tyres



Sun, 03/04/2012 - 10:33 | 2221547 Don Birnam
Don Birnam's picture

Unter falscher Flagge.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:13 | 2221606 redpill
redpill's picture

You know what this calls for...

Ain't no party like a? Pyongyang party, 'cause a Pyongyang party is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:42 | 2221644 taxpayer102
taxpayer102's picture

The Mossad's Marching Orders to AIPAC

"AIPAC’s Washington policy conference today is drawing intense scrutiny and unprecedented resistance. AIPAC has worked quietly for years to tripwire the United States into war with Iran. Soon it will “ask” Congress and the president to define “nuclear weapons capability” as the threshold for war, essentially demanding an immediate attack. Because Iran presents no military threat to the United States, many Americans wonder exactly where such costly and potentially disastrous policies are formulated. Recently declassified FBI files reveal how Israeli government officials first orchestrated public relations and policies through the U.S. lobby. Counter-espionage investigations of proto-AIPAC’s first coordinating meetings with the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the head of Mossad provide a timely and useful framework for understanding how AIPAC continues to localize and market Israeli government policies in America."

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:51 | 2221760 trav7777
trav7777's picture

lemme get this straight...Iran is supposed to have shipped fissile material or a physics package to PRK and then THEY detonated it in 2010 and nobody noticed anything on a seismograph!??!

the ENTIRE fucking story is absurd

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:19 | 2221970 Benjamin Glutton
Benjamin Glutton's picture

Pyongyang in May 2010 proclaimed it had successfully produced a nuclear fusion reaction. At the time, the announcement was widely mocked by international scientists who doubted the isolated and poor country could have achieved such an exceptional feat (see GSN, May 12, 2010).

However, researchers in South Korea had during that period identified a small amount of xenon that could indicate a nuclear operation in the North, Nature reported.

The kinds of isotopes found in the atmosphere and their levels point to efforts by Pyongyang to assess what sorts of substances and technological processes would increase the explosive power of its nuclear bombs, De Geer said. The kind of limited detonations that the radioisotope analysis indicates could have been geared toward producing a tritium-enhanced warhead, he speculated.

His study is to be published in the April/May edition of the Science and Global Security journal.

De Geer's conclusion has faced questions from some nuclear arms specialists. Princeton University physicist Frank von Hippel allowed that De Greer's research offers serious indications that some sort of nuclear fission activities occurred in the North. However, he does not believe the activities are unquestionably related to nuclear detonations or fusion enhancing efforts.

"I hope that other experts will analyze it and see whether they can put forward alternative, simpler explanations," von Hippel said.

Retired geophysicist Ola Dahlman noted that De Geer's theory does not account for the absence of any earth movement that is likely to have occurred following an underground nuclear detonation. The Korean Peninsula is so closely monitored for nuclear tests that the smallest seismic event should be detected, Dahlman said. "It should have been able to see something."

Nonproliferation expert Jeffrey Lewis said De Geer's theory "doesn't feel right to me."

The global nuclear testing surveillance apparatus by itself cannot confirm that the heightened radioisotope levels were the result of a nuclear test and and not the result of another atomic activity, for instance a reactor incident, said Lewis, of the California-based Center for Nonproliferation Studies.

A large number of atomic power plants are active in East Asia, Lewis said. Absent any physical checks of the area and seismic information it is not feasible to confirm from where the isotopes originated, he added. "You need other data'" (see GSN, June 21, 2010).

Though De Geer based his case to some degree on information gathered by the global monitoring system managed by the Preparatory Commission for the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Organization, the nonproliferation entity has not formally studied the information, said Lassina Zerbo, who heads the CTBTO data center in Vienna, Austria.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:52 | 2222011 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture



Someone has to take the fall for the inflation storm that is coming and it won't be the West's central banker (planner) money creation.  Hell blame Iran and you get a nice war out of it too.  The China angle is getting a little old as their economy looks ready to pop too.

Diverting the blame for “inflation”

" A recent example of citing a non-monetary reason for a large decline in the purchasing power of money was the amusing claim by a senior Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) representative that mining booms cause "inflation". Australia has experienced rapid "price inflation" over the past several years, so the central bankers of that country naturally perceive the need to come up with reasons for price rises that have nothing to do with their own actions. A convenient explanation is the mining boom, because it can be shown that the large gains made by commodity prices are linked in some way to China's rapidly-growing demand for commodities. The idea is that if the mining boom CAUSED Australia's "inflation" problem then the finger of blame for the problem could legitimately be pointed at China! "


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:23 | 2222148 Benjamin Glutton
Benjamin Glutton's picture

an expert rebuttal.


From Jeffrey Lewis at Arms Control Wonk


By now, you have undoubtedly seen press reports claiming that North Korea may have conducted a pair of clandestine nuclear tests in April and May 2010.  The reports are based on a forthcoming paper by a well-known Swedish radiochemist, Lars-Erik De Geer.

I don’t buy it. At least not yet.

Look, I would be the first person to jump at the possibility that the CTBTO’s IMS detected a well-hidden nuclear test. I am one of the few cranks out there who believes the  DPRK may explore boosted fission weapons, which De Geer believes accounts for the pair of alleged tests.  But, as I told Nature’s Geoff Brumfiel, the paper  ”doesn’t feel right to me.” (Science & Global Security has made available an advance copy to me; the issue will be published in March.)

What follows is my best accounting of what I see as some methodological problems with a very interesting, but ultimately unpersuasive paper.


Let’s get a bunch of stuff out of the way first. De Geer is a well-respected Swedish radiochemist with strong ties to the CTBTO.  He’s also a pretty nice guy and has been generous in sharing a bunch of radiochemistry on the Chinese atmospheric nuclear testing program with me.  He’s not a bad sort, even if there are a lot of people in Vienna wondering why he just published this paper without workshopping it a bit at the VIC.

The paper was also peer-reviewed.  Although I believe some of the problems I will outline ought to have been raised in peer review, it seems plausible that one or more peer-reviewers were so focused on the very difficult radiochemistry calculations that they didn’t step back and think about the paper in context.  I don’t know anything about radiochemistry, so it’s easy for me to think about the paper in context.  That’s all I have.

Questionable Methodology

My concerns about the paper are simple to explain.  The paper relies on radionuclide monitoring to detect a nuclear explosion, but the general view among experts has been that radionuclide monitoring is imprecise enough that it should only be used to screen events. So, for example, if there is a seismic event, then the presence of xenon or other fission products might help persuade states to seek a special inspection.  But it doesn’t work the other way around. That is why, for example, the South Korean government cited the lack of seismic activity as a reason to dismiss the xenon measurements when they were initially reported in 2010.


the counter argument is detailed and lengthy...cont. at link below.



Sun, 03/04/2012 - 19:24 | 2222689 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

"The failure of U.S. policymakers to comprehend the veiled aggressiveness and hostility towards the United States inherent in Sino-Soviet strategy and the belief that the political and economic reforms in Russia and the partial introduction of capitalism in China have foreshadowed these countries' development into real democracies, have eroded the effectiveness of U.S. policies in the foreign affairs, defense, intelligence and counter-intelligence fields.  U.S. policymakers have recklessly accepted the premise that Russia and China are no longer enemies, but are rather potential allies and partners fully deserving of U.S. support.  Only countries like Iran, (pre-2003) Iraq and North Korea - which (ironically, in this context) work secretly with Russia and China - are still considered potential adversaries." - KGB DEFECTOR ANATOLIY GOLITSYN, THE PERESTROIKA DECEPTION, 1995, P.230

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 17:21 | 2222448 Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

Don't forget ever since the cold war the US and Russians spent billions on launch detection / ionizing radiation detectors to figure out who was testing and exploding what.

Not only that, but cagey european states like Sweeden were constantly paranoid about Russian nuclear escapades.

Cooking off even a tiny nuke would whip up more drama across the globe than a boxed set re-release of Liza Mannelli's greatest hits.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 03:43 | 2223360 Element
Element's picture

'Nuclear test' does not mean a fucking bomb exploded Trav any more than a 'fusion experiment' could be any more than test-tube level 'cold-fusion'.



What is a subcritical experiment?


There is still some confusion about what subcritical tests are and what they are not. It is clear that subcritical tests involve fissionable material and increase the multiplication of neutrons within the material above the natural background due to spontaneous fissions. A nuclear chain reaction stops after two or three `generations' of induced fissions.  As a result the rate at which nuclear energy is released increases for a short time, but remains very tiny compared to the chemical explosive. The power released by the fissions stimulated by the compression of the plutonium remains even below the power generated by the alpha decay of the plutonium which is due to its natural half life. Thus, subcritical experiments comply with the US policy to go for a true zero-yield test ban, if one accepts that zero-yield in fact means almost-zero yield.


Apparently it is not correct that these experiments are always hydronuclear experiments. In hydrodynamic experiments solid matter behaves like a liquid due to a shock wave which may for example be caused by a chemical explosion. If nuclear material is involved this is called hydronuclear experiment.


Such tests could be conducted with nearly complete nuclear weapons except that the fissile pit is replaced by a mechanically equivalent part which is made for example out of depleted or natural uranium including a very small amount of fissile material. The fissile material content is kept low enough to ensure that the material does not become critical upon explosion of the surrounding chemical explosive.


So it's likewise possible to create a subcritical nuclear test that also incorporates a fission component, in a 'layer-cake' core design, where one layer is a fusion component, sandwiched between fission components, and thus could obtain a small fusion yield as a proof-of-concept test.  People don't realise that fusion doesn't actually start to occur when a certain magic T-P threshold is crossed, as that's only where it becomes sustainable, as in a star.  In the real-world fusion is also probabilistic as thresholds are approached, and a subcritical nuclear test alters conditions towards the direction where transient probability of a fusion occurring is enhanced.

Thus fusion products may thus be detected, minus a seismic response above noise levels, and a country can create a higher seismic background noise level when they need to mask a test. They could just detonate seismic charges, and/or a mine shot, or have the army and airforce blow shit with artillery and bombs for half an hour.  Whose going to notice another smallish bang.  They could also claim an ammo bunker exploded if the yield rose towards 20 tonnes of TNT.

If the claims are actually true ( big if ), this would suggest the Norks and Iranians are collaborating on a boosted-yield single-stage fission-fusion-fission design.

And a fullscale test of a much higher yield munition could potentially occur, in that case, and perhaps under an Iranian mountain side test site, if push came to shove.  Would that not shock the shit out of the US and Israel?  i.e. a seismically estimated 40 kilotons of energy release.  That would scream out a sophisticated warhead design with partial fusion components.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:53 | 2221763 john39
john39's picture

checking the MSM bobble heads this weak, i could see that they have already been setting up this shift "nuclear weapons capability" as the trigger for attack.   Truly disgusting that the sold out United States politicians will once again try and sacrafice American youth for an immoral evil war so that Israel can have another country that it considers its enemy destroyed.  the concept of "nuclear weapons capability" as a trigger for an attack is disengenuous as almost any country can arguable be said to possess the "capability".   In the case of Iran, a nuclear energy program somehow becomes a threat to world peace?  conveniently ignoring the 300+ nuclear weapons possessed by Israel, the most aggresssive and war like country in the region (just ask lebanon).  sick of the bullshit.  I look forward to lambasting these idiot politicians and representatives of the criminally psychotic rogue nation that is pushing the United States to do its dirty work.  enough already.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 21:47 | 2222933 smiler03
smiler03's picture

john39, I agree with you completely apart from your usage of "enough already".

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 16:34 | 2222344 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

nice digging  pdf. *[2/28/28] kenen,  et.el

thanks Tp102

Note: $150ml __ $35ml, and a cherry topping of $500ml [inport/export bank] ___ nice!

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:22 | 2221832 Zero_Sum
Zero_Sum's picture

Funniest post of the day. Because it's true.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:23 | 2222147 prains
prains's picture

yeah, now we have "proxy" warhead detonations, give me a fucking break. Lindsay Looseglands has more  credibility than that story.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 04:16 | 2221308 Kapital Xposure
Kapital Xposure's picture

that like soooo much a decade ago



Sun, 03/04/2012 - 07:17 | 2221410 Optimusprime
Optimusprime's picture

Excellent.  Far above the average offering--deserves to be put to music, if it has not been already.  Maybe it'll go viral...

Too bad you had to go down the "climate change" rabbit hole, but overall, very good job.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:44 | 2221743 SelfGov
SelfGov's picture

Since when does peak oil have nothing to do with climate change?

Peak - Oil - ... - Poet

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 16:18 | 2222299 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

They have a lot in common, both take a few grains of fact and blow them up into a whole beach of paranoid religion. 

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 07:23 | 2221416 Dugald
Dugald's picture

Big John Howard? you mean little Johny Jackboots the man who disarmed Australia, so only the crims and the crazies are tooled up, poetic meter perhaps but factually, wrong....

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:11 | 2221602 Jay Gould Esq.
Jay Gould Esq.'s picture

By God, I like this man's prose.

"Only the crims and crazies are tooled up."



Sun, 03/04/2012 - 17:37 | 2222496 Colonel
Colonel's picture

Newsflash socialist tool Bush is no longer president.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 18:49 | 2222557 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Bush was a 'socialist tool'? Jr.or Sr.?

Ah well, forgive and forget; wait, what?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 18:53 | 2222607 Colonel
Colonel's picture

The socialist tool comment was for the guy with the Bush bashing poem above, but you knew that.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 19:29 | 2222668 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Friend of yours?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:46 | 2221264 Michael
Michael's picture

Who is the real enemy? Israel?

The Loss Of Liberty (USS Liberty Cover-Up)

The Power of Nightmares, (Part 1/3), "Baby it's Cold Outside"

The Power of Nightmares Part 2: The Phantom Victory -- by Adam Curtis

The Power of Nightmares Part 3: The Shadows in the Cave


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 04:02 | 2221290 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

I watched the Power Of Nightmares recently to get a better idea of Kremlin thinking since the documentary was likely thought up there as a matter of anti-American agitprop intended to exploit underlying European disdain for America.

As I mentioned elsewhere today, you folk are about as free-minded as cattle headed for the slaughterhouse:

Obviously, you'll only realize as such when it is far, far, far too late....which really is already the case.  Might I suggest learning to speak Russian and Chinese?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 05:11 | 2221348 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"The Power of Nightmares" is blatant statist propaganda that conveniently steps right over 50 years of progressive destruction of the individual and of US values, culture, education and society. There is so much mis-direction in there (as well as your own repeated misdirections to Russia ... a proving ground for NWO tools and techniques, rather than the source of them) that I really don't know where to begin in tearing them apart!!

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:33 | 2221994 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

Russia is the world's ultimate source of misdirection.  Seriously, why do you think Moscow created their slick global news network RussiaToday with English-speaking tools and an endless flow of mostly subtle, sometimes overt anti-Israeli/anti-American propaganda?  And you schmucks take the Russian deceit hook, line and sinker completely oblivious to the fact that you will be skinned, filleted and eaten in due course.

I'd be the first to fault America for being hijacked by money-serving elite (I love Bill Moyers), but does this make falling victim to power-serving elite a worthwhile pursuit?  At least with an honest democratic system, the people have some chance if they become smart about their effective oppression.  However, as today's Russian presidential election well represents, when the democratic system is completely rigged and false, then there's almost no hope for the people whatsoever.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:43 | 2222028 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

RT is doing what Anglo-MSM has done for decades if not half- century.

Democracy is mythology. You live in an ochlocracy and an almost fully completed kakistocracy. Your comments are nonsense.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 22:23 | 2223008 smiler03
smiler03's picture

Gene said it better than me.

You just continue with this vision of yours...

In 1991, during the first Gulf War, I had a prophetic vision of a future Mideast war and global nuclear Apocalypse in connection with my studies of long-wave patterns of history. This vision led me to uncover how Russia is underhandedly plotting to conquer the world via a surprise nuclear war against the West that will be started in such a manner that the misled world will blame 'The Jews' and America for causing the global holocaust of mass destruction. In reality, however, the Kremlin is guilty for this ultimate act of premeditated mass murder. I believe I'm here to help prosecute the evildoers accordingly.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 08:24 | 2221452 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Not all of us are cattle. Many are - but not all.  I wager you don't know such languages, do you?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:13 | 2221686 smb12321
smb12321's picture

I agree that Russia (the greatest mass murderer in history) should pay for its crimes, but not because of a prophecy or vision. They are paying by going extinct.  They are losing a million people a year with no end in sight and in decades will be the first western "Islamic republic". In less than 30 years their pop will be less than Turkey making it impossible to hold onto their territory.  Karma is powerful.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:53 | 2221764 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Russia is a nation.  It cannot "mass murder" anyone as it is incorporeal.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:22 | 2221979 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

Explain that to the Ukrainians:

What's historically unfolding is that the world is witnessing the resurrection of pre-Communist Tsarist Russia, what may be called the "Third Rome":

Kremlin thinking is rabidly anti-semitic and Russia's historical messianic complex has shifted from Communist ideology to Christian ideology (both of which are inherently insincere):


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:21 | 2222136 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Ukrainians weren't murdered en masse by "Russians". They were murdered by a predominantly Jewish-communist NKVD, at the orders of a dictator and regime motivated by Communist ideology, that is, secularized Judaism.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 16:28 | 2222324 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

What a wonderfully upside-down reality in which you dwell.  After all, just how "pro-Jewish" was STALIN.

Hey....but why let reality interfere with your anti-semitic delusions.  Keep life simple and blame the Jews so you can avoid facing your own wrongfulness.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 18:11 | 2222541 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

"Anti-Semitic delusions" is pretty strong language coming from a guy who has a blog claiming the current brand of Russian nationalists are the reincarnation of the Tsars. I like it because its madness and yet the captions are disturbingly persuasive.

Maybe i'm wrong about you but it sounds like your coming from the view of the "Israel First" wing of Christian Right in America. You have that nice blend of Revelations prophecy and Geopolitics, its like the political version of Creation Science. Your people have been struggling hard these days to try and figure out how America the utterly decript and utterly corrupt Hyper Power isn't Babylon the Greatest and why it has back the state of Israel at ever greater costs of blood and treasure. You seem to be willfully ignoring the link between Judaism and Communism and trying to pin the evils of Communism square on the Russians. I'm not trying to be anti-semitic but you can't absolve people like Bela Kun and Trotsky of what Communism did to Eastern Europe simply because Stalin didn't like them. The current trend in Anti-Semitism in Russia is mainly a backlash against the Oligarchs about half of whom were Jewish and effectively pillaged an entire continent.

As for Power of Nightmares, if you want to see some "Statist Propoganda" go and watch the dozens of documentaries put out by the BBC telling us just how easy it would be for terrorists to kill  with weaponized Brown Rice or how Saddam could give everyone in Central London the clap in 45 minutes. I grew up watching that shit, put out by the original Ministry of Truth the BBC. Russia Today is just the Russians answer to CNN and most Russians don't even take it seriously. Compare what it has acheived with the cynical Russians to the sheer panic the Western Media put into the hearts and minds of the general public, the freedoms they gave up and the atrocities that were commited and i think you will find many sources of "statist propoganda" beyond the Kremlin. Curtis played up the Anti U.S stereotypes, as does John Pilger or even Noam Chomsky but the fact that they are there to point out the hypocrisy in our own socitey was a victory for Democracy. Far better than another Glenn Beck special on the Reds training Jihadists via the public school system.

Its that exact kind of madness we got here when some one puts out a rumour NK is testing bombs for Iran. No one seems to be looking at the political implications of this. You think the Iranians trust the North Koreans with a bomb, their bomb? Iran can barely keep their scientists from getting killed in Mossad Drive-bys and they are just going to ship their bomb out on a boat to Korea? NK might steal it for all they know, grass them up to NATO for few thousand tons of rice. Would you lend someone your Bomb to try out?


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 20:45 | 2222816 trav7777
trav7777's picture

you are just insane...get help.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 03:03 | 2223354 Spirit Of Truth
Sun, 03/04/2012 - 17:47 | 2222514 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

SoT wrote:

'Russia's historical messianic complex has shifted from Communist ideology to Christian ideology (both of which are inherently insincere):'

CP wrote:

'the orders of a dictator and regime motivated by Communist ideology, that is, secularized Judaism.'

In fact you are both incorrect. Marxist ideology was based on early Christianity in theory while in practice became the exact opposite of its intentions. Just as Marx wrote critique blaming Christianity(read the Church) for degenerating into Judaism, so too, his 'religion' became an especially vicious oppressive force that was worse than Judaism.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 18:40 | 2222588 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Triple-think. Just look at the ethnicity of the Mensehviks, Bolsheviks, Left SR's in pre- and revolutionary Russia: disproportionately Jewish to an overwhelming degree. Stalin, looking over the crowd at an early Party Congress: "what we need is a pogrom in the Party...". Ditto re Old and New Left in the West. State Socialism, in its inception and later enforcement, has been overwhelmingly Jewish. It's all just Tikun Olam...+ the Whip and the Gun.  

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:03 | 2221790 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture


". . . Russia (the greatest mass murderer in history) should pay. . ." 

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.  Likewise countries don't murder people, people murder people.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:51 | 2221660 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Its just a damn shame that all you Iran sympathizers and nuclear weapons deniers couldnt be relocated to an island in the Pacific where Iran could test their peaceful nuclear devices.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:05 | 2221679 smb12321
smb12321's picture

It's beyond reason.  I've tried over and over to understand who folks claiming to be for personal, economic and political freedom can carry the ball for regimes that are the opposite of what they proclaim.  My guess is that they don't give a damn about liberty.  They never note the ultimate irony - only in the US (not Iran, Syria, China, Russia, Pakistan, N Korea) can you threaten, lamblast and curse the government with impunity.  It's so obvious but it's ignored.

They've preverted the idea of non-interference into support for regimes that routinely torture, starve or slaughter their own people AND censor public expression.  I've asked why (repeatedly) and never received anything other than childish obscenities or "You're a sheeple" or "Don't post here".  I know now there is no answer for their choice.  Oh well. 


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:54 | 2221769 trav7777
trav7777's picture

you go fight

who gives a fuck what goes on in other regimes, it's not OUR business.  I'm not paying to try to save ragheads from other ragheads.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:06 | 2221795 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"Like one who takes a dog by the ears
Is he who passes by and meddles with strife not belonging to him." Proverbs 26:17

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:22 | 2221978 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Are you so stupid you don't realize it's really all abou the petro dollar? The reason you are told to fuck off is we have enough of that argument in the media.  You're not adding anything expect repeating the propoganda.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:58 | 2222256 Colombian Gringo
Colombian Gringo's picture

If you feel so strongly, why not join the Syrian opposition, courtesy of the US, and free the poor arabs from their oppressive masters.   Lead by example, and fight if you are so convinced of the righteousness of your position. Otherwise, STFU.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:32 | 2221721 tamboo
tamboo's picture

sounds like joonocide to me, what a peaceful little tribe you have.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 16:18 | 2222298 rlouis
rlouis's picture

 Spomethings are increasingly believeable

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 07:33 | 2221358 Element
Element's picture


idlly by when Iran transports nuclear material to North Korea.


 Nuclear material is not illegal anywhere and countries transport it everyday.

Uranium can be easily shielded and hidden.

Plutonium is much harder to hide because it's so much more radioactive, as it comes from reprocessed irradiated reactor fuel, thus is full of unstable daughter products, even after reprocessing to remove much of it, and typically plutonium is at about 57 degrees C even when standing at room temperature (~25 degrees C)--so radioactive and self-heating, is it. 

Indeed plutonium warheads can suffer catastrophic thermal overheating from this, if the warhead design does not have sufficient heat-sink and passive cooling features.  The heated core plutonium can undergo a sudden instantaneous crystal lattice rearrangement, and this makes the warhead unable to generate an efficient nuclear yield (if any).

Plus the extra heat from even a well designed coolish warhead tends to accelerate the aging of the triggering HE explosives and support electronics package, requiring regular removals from service and rebuilding and comprehensive testing and replacing of components, for them to remain operational.

Consequently HEU isn't full of decaying daughter-products and thus suffers none of those limitations and serious safety and longevity problems. Thus they are much cheaper, more reliable, much easier to hide and transport, and last longer in storage. And thus HEU weapons are much harder to detect from radiation emission. In fact the Hiroshima bomb had neutron generators added to the core specifically to ensure enough decay-neutrons would be present in the core during the core assembly chain-reaction process for it to explode with acceptable efficiency of energy release from the core's atoms (about 1% of the HEU atoms are converted to light and subatomic particles in the core).

The US is most unlikely to assuredly detect a transported HEU weapon, especially when it can be transported in a Kilo class submarine, or else welded into a shielded protected cavity under the ship.  We're talking about something the size of a large bucket (so no, they don't have to arrive in shipping containers,in order to get into a US port, or any other port ... so don't attack them).

They can be very easily and successfully hidden and transported, just think about it a bit.

HEU weapons may be very slightly larger and 100kg heavier, but that have numerous other advantages, and these make them very desirable as 'stealthy' low-maintenance A-bombs.  So HEU warheads should be taken much more seriously because they have these tremendously desirable implicit features and are so radically simple to design and build, plus now they can be made almost as physically small as a plutonium warhead.  The complete warhead can fit inside a 20 liter drum, it weighs under 250kg, and with precision delivery is able to destroy any military target on earth that is not protected by a mountain, and even that might not be enough, if several were used.  And they are comparatively very cheap to make compared to the ridiculously expensive complicated and highly polluting and visible plutonium path.  Make no mistake, HEU bombs are the real secret-proliferation danger.  But for decades the media and politicians went on and on about reactors and plutonium and almost completely ignores HEU, and also assumed that you had to have reactors to make a working A-bomb, but that has NEVER been the case (as Hiroshima and the Russian Joe-1 proved).

The real advantage of plutonium implosion bomb designs is that its much easier to electronically and physically prevent unauthorised detonation from occurring, and to disable them.  That's the real reason the major powers arsenals are full of much more expensive and complicated plutonium bombs rather than HEU warheads.  It's not just about miniaturisation and lower weight.

If I were an Iranian I would think it would be very advantageous to utilise the DPRK's expertise and facilities.

As I've been saying we're now well past the point where we must suspect if not outright presume Iran already has several deliverable warheads on missiles, because given the technology, the time they have had it, and the threat circumstances involved, it is quite likely to be so.

Do you really want to find out?

And as for the ludicrously naive notion that it's a Muslim Sin to develop Nukes, better tell Pakistan to repent, pronto!


And I notice Pakistan finally came out and openly aligned themselves in support of Iran, if the West or Israel attacks Iran.

"... Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari has recently announced his support of Iran. The relations between the United States and Pakistan have been growing intense recently indeed. ... A recent statement from the Pakistan President regarding a possible attack against Iran became another unpleasant surprise for the United States. Washington may not count on Islamabad's support in case of a military conflict with Iran. Furthermore, Pakistan will show a tough response to possible aggression. Pakistan and Iran need each other, and they will not tolerate any foreign interference, the Pakistani leader claimed.  Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar stated that she would like to have a meeting with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to discuss opportunities for resuming allied relations between Islamabad and Washington. The geopolitical satiation in the Middle East continues to get worse. However, the US government takes no measures to improve its ties with Pakistan. As a result, the United States may finally lose the ally which received considerable military assistance from the Pentagon in the past. Nowadays, the US Army leaves its bases in the country because anti-American sentiments in the multi-million-strong country have reached their peak. ..."


At this point I'd say that's probably game set and match to Iran.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 10:14 | 2221532 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i'm pretty sure you covered all the bases on this one.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 10:52 | 2221567 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Agreed. That's what happens when you elect second rate leaders.

You lose...

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:21 | 2221616 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i'm a big fan of analytics. nothing personal for all you winners our there! here's a pick me up for all you "concerned" out there:

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:29 | 2221714 Loose Caboose
Loose Caboose's picture


If you still believe in free and fair elections ..... you lose.

Wake the hell up - coffee's a brewing.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:50 | 2222230 The Paucity of Hope
The Paucity of Hope's picture

When was the last time we had an opportunity to vote for someone good enough to be considered a second rate leader?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:07 | 2221593 Debeachesand Je...
Debeachesand Jerseyshores's picture

Not a pleasnt picture you painted on a lazy Sunday morning.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:28 | 2221625 john39
john39's picture

So pakistan's possession of the bomb (developed by a military hunta, not a theocracy) indicates that other muslim countries can't declare possession of nuclear weapons a sin?  better check your logic.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:00 | 2221778 trav7777
trav7777's picture

HEU??  It's ridiculously hard to GET any of this without massive refining capacity that is OBVIOUS to even those who aren't looking.

Pu239 is easier to make; you just need a reactor.

You cannot manufacture HEU without physically refining mountains of ordinary uranium.  Pu is easy to make in breeder reactors.  THIS is the reason the major powers went to Pu; it's simply superior for nuclear weapons all along the supply chain.

You can review the Manhattan Project if you disagree.  We used a substantial portion of the entire HEU inventory on little boy but were able to bang out a new Pu core per month with the reactors at Hanford.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:16 | 2221818 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture


"You cannot manufacture HEU without physically refining mountains of ordinary uranium."


Nonsense!  Natural uranium is approx. 0.7% U-235.  20 lbs. of U-235 would require just a few tons of natural uranium, much less than "mountains", unless your mountains are very small.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 20:58 | 2222835 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Do you understand anything about ore concentrations?

You need mountains of the stuff; please, review the difference between the productivity at oak ridge versus hanford.  You can read up on the manhattan project.  We acquired many thousands of tons of ore, and estimated the need for tens of thousands of centrifuges to produce a kilo of HEU per day.  we had to contract with shit as far away as africa to even get U ore to process in sufficient quantities.

The reason nuclear weapons use Pu239 is because it is superior for that purpose due to the far easier acquisition thereof.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 00:37 | 2223240 Element
Element's picture


The reason nuclear weapons use Pu239 is because it is superior for that purpose due to the far easier acquisition thereof.


That's an extremely narrow and very doubtful view of 'easier'.  

The burning of uranium (often requiring some percentage of U235 enrichment anyway, so you still need a centrifuge complex etc.) to create plutonium does not make it easier to acquire, it makes it vastly more problematic, dangerous, expensive and polluting.  All just to create warheads that are seriously more difficult and dangerous to fabricate, much more expensive, more difficult to handle, and more difficult to maintain and periodically rebuild.  The US just retired most of these quickly, and tried to build warheads that were less of a pain in the arse (and used a lot more HEU in these).

Alternatively an implosive HEU munition doesn't have these serious impairments nor life-cycle costs or the endless safety and security issues (HEU cores are much harder to find and target).

Plus its vastly easier to dilute and dispose of excess weapon-grade HEU.  You could even dilute it back to 1/144th of stainless steel, and bury the ingots in an an old uranium mine, with zero ill or unnatural cumulative effects.

But plutonium remains a serious problem for disposal as its radioactivity would require an enormous amount of dilution in other stable metals, in order to become as harmless and as inert as a 1/144th HEU stainless steel ingot.

Weapon-grade plutonium could only be considered 'easier' to acquire, if money were no object, and you were ignoring everything that's so abundantly negative about it, due to being in a nuclear arms race--which unfortunately is what happened.

But for a small and hopefully secret A-bomb program, HEU is always going to be a less visible, expensive or risky option, and that's the main point.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 02:38 | 2223187 Element
Element's picture

Exactly. Trav is talking complete nonsense.

Weapon-grade U-235 HEU is just 1/144th of all natural uranium.

Between 48kg and 60 kg HEU U235 was used in the Hiroshima bomb, so let's call it 55kg, and that's;

55kg * 144 = 7.9 metric tonnes of natural uranium needed per hiroshima-type A-bomb core.

With losses included let's call it a conservative 10 tonnes of uranium per bomb.

So you can build 50 Hiroshima gun-type HEU nukes with a mere 500 tonnes of uranium.  That ain't no mountain, that's about one train-load of yellow cake to convert to uranium hexafluoride.

But there is nothing to stop you designing a far smaller and lighter symmetrical implosive HEU munition core that uses substantially less HEU than that original (extremely wasteful oversize and very heavy) gun-type Hiroshima HEU design. That design was only developed as a fall back in order to be absolutely sure the US would have a working A-bomb that absolutely would go bang (and this didn't even need to be tested before being used in combat, so confident were they that such a super wasteful design would work). This was because no one was certain they could get the much more complex and smaller plutonium implosion core used at Nagasaki to work.  As it turned out the Trinity implosion test made it clear the Plutonium approach could also work acceptably reliably.

Thus a modern HEU munition won't use a gun-type assembly, but a high-density compaction of an imploding HEU core instead, to assemble a lower weight critical mass sphere (rather than a non-compressed crude mechanical juxtaposition of two parts slamming together that combined make up a transient critical mass assembly).

This means you may need only 5 tonnes of uranium per HEU A-bomb, so these can be generated much faster (or slower in greater secrecy) than before, and an implosion design then also incorporates all the very desirable physical and electronic safety constraints against the possibility of unauthorised detonation.

So this HEU path is clearly an optimal path to a small secret nuclear arsenal.

Thus compact tactical-yield HEU weapons in the 0.5 to 5 kiloton range are eminently viable, cheap to make, easy to design plus zero-yield test, and relatively simple to manufacture maintain and store safely. Yet safe to move about and very stealthy.

A small HEU arsenal can be easily achieved, secretly, over a period of years, let alone decades, especially if your enrichment technology is sufficiently conpact affordable and efficient.

High efficency laser enrichment is now a reality, since Australia developed SILEX during the mid-1980s, when it was operating two separate secret laser enrichment programs, simultaneously, right after closing down another secret gas-centrifuge enrichment plant in 1986, that had been operating since well before 1983 (and possibly as early as 1975). And an even earlier one, that was setup in 1965, and shut down some time before 1973, as the NPT was ratified.

This new laser enrichment process demonstrated efficiencies levels that was claimed by SILEX to, AT A MINIMUM, exceed 20 times the efficiency of the then current operational US uranium enrichment techniques in 2001 (the true efficency remains classified by Australia and the US, but it we know it was spectacularly higher then anyone ever thought possible).  Plus it's physically much smaller and unobtrusive, lower cost, solid-state (not a mechanical process) and low maintenance, and uses much less power and area than earlier enrichment techniques, requiring far fewer staff, and thus far less chance for discovery, and a greater capacity to maintain security and access control.

Australia developed SILEX in secret, in plain sight, at an IAEA safeguarded facility.

It was never discovered (none of the four enrichment programs were discovered over 3 decades of operations! ... so much for the IAEA safeguard formalities).  So other than the use of uranium hexafluoride the SILEX process didn't actually resemble any usual form of uranium enrichment processing. So no one had a clue until Canberra was ready to reveal it's existence to the US Govt, in about 1996.  In 1994 the other competing ANSTO Govt laser enrichment effort was disbanded at the same IAEA safeguarded site, and some of the equipment from it was re-used in the supposedly 'private' SILEX program.

This technology will by now have been replicated by others, or soon will be. And then it will be operating elsewhere in secret.  It is believed Israel developed a less efficient and more problematic laser enrichment process, but it also is way ahead of first and second generation of uranium enrichment technologies, that all other nuclear powers used to make large stocks of HEU.

So things have really changed, and HEU is now potentially the fastest cheapest and most stealthy way to produce weapon-grade fissile weapon cores, plus uranium is abundant and many countries have extractable deposits, and mining and extraction techniques have also reduced costs and increased the speed of acquiring a national uranium reserve stockpile.

So creating HEU is hardly the major challenge it once was.  The US and Russia each created large stocks of weapon-grade HEU by the mid-1960s.  The British also were pumping out weapon-grade HEU amazingly quickly during the late 1950s.

"Britain's indigenous supply of enriched uranium is supplied by the gaseous diffusion plant at Capenhurst, originally the site of a Royal Ordnance factory, 25 miles from Risley in Cheshire. Although an enrichment plant was authorized in October 1946, the site was not selected until early 1950. Capenhurst made its initial start up in February 1952, but did not successfully enter operation until 1953 (producing low enriched uranium), and did not produce highly enriched uranium (HEU) until 1954. The plant was given successive upgrades during the fifties, reaching a military significant capacity of 125 kg of highly enriched uranium a year in 1957, and much higher levels in 1959 (as much as 1600 kg/yr, or an enrichment capacity of 325,000 SWU/yr). Capenhurst operated as a source of HEU at full capacity only until the end of 1961. Most of the stages were shut down at that point and the plant converted to low-enriched uranium production for civil reactor use. The 1996 SIPRI estimate was 3.8-4.9 tonnes of HEU being produced, almost all of it in 1959-1961."

Carey Sublet, High Energy Weapons Archive

Lets call it about 4.5 tonnes of HEU was created by UK by the end of 1961, which at a conservative 30 kg per implosive A-bomb core equates to enough for about 130 HEU A-bombs, or enough for use in about 75 much higher yield thermonuclear designs.

This was achieved only 16 years from Hiroshima, by a country that was both devastated and basically in economic collapse and almost broke.

The Russians also built the HEU JOE-1 very quickly because they could build the enrichment capability up quickly, and mine and enrich uranium quickly even with crude first-generation technology and zero experience doing it.

And then there was the USA:

"...The U.S. has produced no new nuclear warheads in the past ten years (the last fissile bomb core was fabricated in December 1989, the last weapon was assembled 31 July 1990). ... A total of 90.5 tonnes of weapon grade plutonium was produced by the U.S. 54.5 tonnes of this was produced at Hanford, 36 tonnes was produced at Savannah River. Three countries provided the bulk of the foreign-derived material: United Kingdom (5,384 kilograms), Canada (254.5 kg) and Taiwan (79.1 kg). ... On 1 March 1995, President Clinton declared 212.5 tonnes of highly enriched uranium (HEU) and plutonium to be excess to national security needs. Since that time additional information about the amount, locations, and forms of this material has been released. The excess plutonium (38.2 tonnes) is stored at 10 locations in Washington, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico (two locations), Texas, Ohio, New York, Tennessee and South Carolina. The HEU (174.3 tonnes) is stored at six locations in Washington, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas and South Carolina. It is expected that the HEU will be blended with natural uranium to produce some 7000 tonnes of civilian power plant fuel over 8-10 years. About 10 tonnes of HEU has already been placed under international safeguards at the Oak Ridge Y-12 site.  The excess HEU consists of 33 tonnes of >92% enrichment material (originally used or intended for weapon primary cores), and 142 tonnes of 20-92% enrichment material (much of it used or intended for thermonuclear secondaries). No HEU for weapons use has been produced since 1964, and production of HEU for use in naval reactors ended in 1991 with future needs to be met from the stockpile. ... "

- Carey Sublet, High Energy Weapons Archive


And Russia declared about 500 tonnes of HEU 'excess' to needs after the cold war!!  So the Russians obviously loved HEU, and created by far the largest amounts of it:

"By end of 2011, 442.5 tons of HEU (equivalent to 17,698 nuclear warheads eliminated) was blended down and delivered to the U.S."-

Note that these official Russian figures imply 25kg HEU per warhead, which means they were of course using the far more efficient implosion-type HEU core designs. The Russians were more than happy to build-up a gigantic HEU-based nuclear arsenal. 

Indeed, there has been speculation that the US's more recent strategic thermonuclear warhead designs were primarily made of HEU (of various percentages) and that the vast bulk of energy released comes not from fusion of lithium-6 deuteride and/or tritium, but from secondary fissioning of a HEU and even DU casing. The fusioning releases lots more neutrons than the fissioning does, which then causes the unfissioned fraction that remains to begin to fission again, thus the HEU may generate up to 90% of the total energy released by a thermonuclear bomb. i.e. fusion neutrons makes fissioning super-efficient. Thus to vary the thermonuclear yield you just add or subtract HEU. And/or you change the arrangement of neutron shielding present, with a boron carbide neutron absorber that can alter preheating and thermal expansion in the secondary, that interferes with efficient secondary implosion and fusion yield. So you can then make the warhead yield as much or as little as required.

So any way; the US acquired a grand total of 90.5 tones of weapon-grade Plutonium during the cold war.

The excess Plutonium was 38.2 tonnes, from the combined total of 212.5 tones of 'excess' weapon-grade materials, thus the amount of excess HEU in 1995 was then;

212.5 - 38.2 = 173.4 tonnes of HEU deemed surplus to requirements (and all of it intended for use in nuclear weapon cores and tampers).

So just this discarded HEU excess weapon-grade stock was 191.6% larger than the total peak stock of weapon-grade Plutonium that the USA ever acquired. And this is not even counting the large stockpile the US still retained for weapons and future naval reactor use, at that time, in 1995.

And the key sentence is this; "No HEU for weapons use has been produced since 1964, ...", which means all of the many hundreds of tonnes of HEU was created before 1964!  

i.e. it was all enriched within just 19 years of Hiroshima's destruction.

And once the USA had produced such a glut of weapon-grade HEU that it was pointless to make more, the US stopped enriching uranium above civilian reactor-grade from 1964.

So creating HEU, in huge amounts was not slow at all, it was instead extremely rapid once it got properly rolling, and was done to global-overkill levels, in very short order.

Iran has had the Pakistani (URENCO) enrichment technology available to it for over 20 years.  It would be foolish in the extreme to assume they did not use it to secretly build up a national stock of weapon-grade HEU from a small hidden underground enrichment program, since about 1990, or soon after this.  Iran was literally surrounded and being repeatedly threatened by nuclear powers the whole time.  All that Iran is doing now is up-scaling the once secret underground effort and doing this more openly, because it can no longer be hidden, and also, it no longer NEEDS to be hidden.

Iran is now in a position to withstand a military challenge or else test a weapon, if necessary, to prove a capability exists to an aggressor, and that it has existed for several years.
So I reiterate, HEU is overwhelmingly the ideal path to secretly acquired weapon-grade fissile material.  A large nuclear reactor complex is unnecessary to obtain nukes, and a reactor only becomes essential if a state wants to constantly replenished supply of tritium for a standing strategic-yield EMP capability.

Weapon-grade plutonium is actually 100% unnecessary if a prospective nuclear-armed state decides it does not want either plutonium bombs, or nuclear reactors.  That is something most people still don't realise.


It would be a good idea to change policy and not continually antagonise and vilify Iran.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 05:56 | 2223408 Benjamin Glutton
Benjamin Glutton's picture

what Trav is saying is nonsense...

the process does not begin with yellowcake...picture of moved mountain(uranium ore mine)

after some additional refining you get yellowcake...picture(LEU)

Yellowcake (also called urania) is a kind of uranium concentrate powder obtained from leach solutions, in an intermediate step in the processing of uranium ores.[1] Yellowcake concentrates are prepared by various extraction and refining methods, depending on the types of ores. Typically, yellowcakes are obtained through the milling and chemical processing of uranium ore forming a coarse powder which has a pungent odor, is insoluble in water and contains about 80% uranium oxide, which melts at approximately 2878 °C. Although uranium is one of the densest metals on Earth, yellowcake is relatively light, with a density approximately that of elemental sulfur.

Though perhaps sloppy Trav seemed to be referring to Uranium processing beginning in its natural state(in the earth).

You cannot manufacture HEU without physically refining mountains of ordinary's simply superior for nuclear weapons all along the supply chain.

You offer the following in response...

Exactly. Trav is talking complete nonsense.

Weapon-grade U-235 HEU is just 1/144th of all natural uranium.

Between 48kg and 60 kg HEU U235 was used in the Hiroshima bomb, so let's call it 55kg, and that's;

55kg * 144 = 7.9 metric tonnes of natural uranium needed per hiroshima-type A-bomb core.

With losses included let's call it a conservative 10 tonnes of uranium per bomb.

So you can build 50 Hiroshima gun-type HEU nukes with a mere 500 tonnes of uranium.  That ain't no mountain, that's about one train-load of yellow cake to convert to uranium hexafluoride.


The point is that you must in fact move (mine)a mountain of material to build Ubombs.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 12:26 | 2223799 Element
Element's picture

Thanks for that, I see your point;

A HEU core may require as little as 25 kg of weapon grade (~93.5% U235) HEU.

25 * 144 = 3.6 tonnes of uranium required to get the necessary HEU (let's call it 4.0 tonnes).

If the ore grade is o.2% the uranium is still only 1/500th the material mined;

So to get the 4.0 tonnes of uranium for one bomb, you would need,

4.0 * 500 = 2,000 tonnes of ore

So 10 weapons would require the mining of 20,000 tonnes of ore at 0.2% grade.

So several train loads of ore must be refined from a small deposit to obtain the initial arsenal.

Yes, Trav is somewhat correct in that case, but 20,000 tonnes is by no means a mountain-sized deposit.

To produce 100 HEU weapons it's still just 200,000 tonnes of ore, to obtain 400 tonnes of natural uranium, for conversion and enrichment.

That is in fact still a small uranium mine, and a very small ore deposit, of prosaic grade. 

In most cases, depending on the host rocks and secondary mineralisation, the oxide is fairly easy to separate from tails.   This is not much of a physical, economic or technical hurdle for almost any state with a modest 500 tonne U3O8 alluvial emplacement deposit.

I'm actually surprised and shocked by how small a deposit is required to build a substancial HEU nuclear arsenal. I had expected it would have to be three or four times larger, which is why I previously mentioned a 2,000 tonne deposit, a deposit size which is frankly still tiny, by Australia deposit size standards. Amazing.


 EDIT: One last thing though, your link to the image of the Ranger pit provides a quite incorrect and misleading impression of what is required.  Ranger is a gigantic deposit, and also mine, that's producing up to 5,500 tonnes of U3O8 per year in recent years.  Which means it takes only about 13.5% of Rangers entire annual production to creat the HEU for 100 A-bombs, i.e. ony about 2 months of digging.  This mine has been operating since the early 1970s.  So the actual mine and deposit required, to make such a powerful arsenal, is indeed very small, and nothing whatever like this Ranger image.

Tue, 03/06/2012 - 01:24 | 2227053 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

Everything Trav says is psychotic bullshit. 

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 01:03 | 2223268 Element
Element's picture


... you just need a reactor.


I think you'll find Iraq and Syria would have preferred a hidden underground HEU production plant, in retrospect.

And since when is mining and production of yellow-cake or the building of a national stockpile of uranium illegal, or even any cause for alarm? Any Sovereign country is entitled to do it and they don't need anyone's permission. 

Small uranium oxide deposits 2k tonnes are hardly rare or unusual occurrences and that's potentially enough for hundreds of HEU A-bombs.  With typical ore grades about 0.025 to 0.25%, you certainly won't need to process a mountain, or anywhere near that, to get a small initial arsenal of ten or so, then build up from there.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:23 | 2221835 Jake88
Jake88's picture

Mind boggling.  Meanwhile the CIA tells us Iran is not working on nuclear weapons and Isreal is chomping at the bit to attack Iran before they get them.  How can this be true? Why is this not discussed in the media? If true an attack from Isreal would give Iran and Pakistan the excuse they need to annihilate Isreal.  How close do you need to get one of these bombs to a US carrier in order to sink it. Sounds too insane to be true.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 18:15 | 2222548 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

Total bullshit, period!

Plutonium - what a joke,... definitely a falseflag innuendo, period!

YellowCake = Uranium [U-235] Oxide, and the CNOR / G-2 System [~ late 1960's] is Iran's chosen method.

Summary: uranium's natural state has a potency of near-zero, but, the nuclear club had found an easy way to produce, ie. convert it into a fissile [state] material. raw uranium [mined in australia, canada, niger, russia, south africa, u.s, etc.,] had to be crushed, mixed with water and put through a chemical process to purify it into uranium oxide [yellowcake]. for every 1k atoms of yellowcake, only 7 atoms would be uranium-235 [u-235], the fissionable isotope needed to arm an atomic bomb **[note: the remaining 993 atoms being uranium-238 were a heavier, and superfluous element unstable and of no practical use for weaponry manufacturing]. Now, for weapons use, the concentration of U-235 has to be enhanced from 0.07% to an excess of 93%. This  procedure/ process is complex, and very expensive called "Enrichment". You need 10's of thousands of [aluminum tubes ~ 6ft in height and `18" diameter] centrifuges cascading in tandem standing vertically [think of a cigar tube upside down].

Briefly, the centrifugal force [~70k rpm] called vertical separation splits apart the atoms of the U-235 from U-238. Into these tubes is injected a gas refined from yellowcake [U-235] called Uranium Hexafluoride [UF6] which was then spun by rotars fast enough to separate its isotopes. the heavier U-238 is thrown outwards and slides down the centrifuge's drum below to a waste pipe below, while the lighter and fissionable U-235 concentrated at the central axis is to be sucked out through an exit pipe. This entire process continues.

Wash, rinse, and repeat cycle? The Uranium Hexafluoride Gas [UF6] that is fed into the centrifuges would be continuously poured from one centrifuge to the next, by what is called a "Feed and Withdrawal System",via pipes, valves, and compressors that guided the gas [F6] on its journey to enrichment. The enrich U-235 would then be taken to another facility called the, "Gasification and Solidification Plant" where its package and stored to turn it into metal, and shape into small spheres, suitable to retro-fit nuclear warheads.

Important: There are, what are called theoretical "Cold Test" done, that are simulated on super-computers for the authenticity of a reliable detonation,... using multiple detonators equating to a fail-safe bomb enactment.

Finally, I hope this helps you realize that this Alumni Member of the Jewish Univarisity is a paid shill of ?

Ps.   FWIW: Even 'Mossad' is against a  Netanyahu [BB] attack on Iran

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 09:21 | 2221490 HarryM
HarryM's picture

From Israel's perspective - "Just because your paranoid doesn't mean their not trying to get you".

Surely these are words readers of this Blog can associate with.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:24 | 2221617 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

They made their bed. They can sleep in it.  They're too ugly to be our bed partner.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:35 | 2221635's picture

Just because you make attempts to to protect yourself based on paranoiac fears doesn't mean that those very actions won't inadvertently lead to your destruction.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:44 | 2221742 Silver Bug
Silver Bug's picture

The propaganda machine is alive and well!

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:54 | 2221113 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:57 | 2221207 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture



N. Korea's response when Iran gets attacked by the U.S., Israel, G. Britain, and Germany....."You on you phucking own round eye."

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:16 | 2221227 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Nobody's attacking anybody. The US fleet is nowhere nearby and the detail in the story "nuclear warhead tests in 2010" is a giveaway that it's just recycled fear-mongering.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:35 | 2221252 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture



Hey, what are you a human crystal ball?      You don't know for sure, I don't know for sure, but what I do know is that in this crazy-ass world.....

Anything's possible.    However remotely small the odds appear to be.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:45 | 2221263 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

History is predetermined as exemplified by Bible prophecy.  We experience the story as it unfolds as probabilistic particulars, but this is just wave-particle duality on the human scale IMHO.

DJIA appears to be peaking at 13K.

The next leg down according to the Elliott Wave Principle should be an "Apocalypse Wave".  Russia and China have misled the West into a false sense of security to unleash a surprise third world war and thereby dominate the world.  Puppet states like Iran and North Korea are being utilized to start World War Three in such a manner that the world will blame Israel, America and the Western powers for triggering the global holocaust of mass destruction.  Most here are following the script being written for them accordingly and as such are cooperating in their own destruction.

I say it's time to stop reading this tragic story and seek to rewrite a happy ending, but it seems like no one will ever get what I mean.

"History is a capricious creature.  It depends on who writes it." - Mikhail Gorbachev

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:49 | 2221270 Michael
Michael's picture

I don't think we need to start WW3 over money.

It's only money.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:32 | 2221632 john39
john39's picture

you might want to dig a little deeper into the bible's history. this might help you see why it so dangerous to blindly rely on scripture for direction.   the first question would be, how many "gods" are described in the old testament?  who changed the old summarian stories to make the "hebrew"?  why were the gnostic gospels and all their warnings about the "war" god removed from Christian theology....  in short, the bible has been converted to an elaborate mind control and propaganda piece, which renders blind adherence to scripture nothing less than catastrophic. 

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:08 | 2221682 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

Good point. The "prophecy" spoken of earlier in this thread is more closely related to PKD's Paycheck than the bible story book.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:46 | 2222020 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

I concur for the most part john39.

Watched The Last Tomb Of Jesus last night.  Thought to myself, if most of what the filmmaker can be verified, then this puts the scriptures in their proper historical light.  But even when it comes to a man-created myth, if God is the ultimate Author of HIS-tory, then the myth can be used for revealing the relative truth.  This, I believe, is where the role of the Antichrist comes in. You show your creatures 'the truth' by making 'the lie' as blatantly obvious as can be and then rely on the light of reason to win the day over the murderous darkness of blind faith.  This goes for all three of the Abrahamic religions.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 17:03 | 2222413 d_senti
d_senti's picture

Uh, I thought YOU were Christ. At least that's what you've claimed on your blog, mostly because of a birthmark. You're bipolar and delusional, dude. Get some help.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 03:05 | 2223356 Spirit Of Truth
Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:59 | 2222069 Reese Bobby
Reese Bobby's picture

You are lost and need a primer.  Try "Mere Christianity" by C.L. Lewis.  Just do the best you can.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 23:31 | 2223135 Lower Class Elite
Lower Class Elite's picture

Actually he should check out the complete Hitchiker's Guide series.  Much more accurate and helpful than the bible.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 09:58 | 2221515 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

"I don't think we need to start WW3 over money."


As far as I know, every war in my lifetime has been done without my consent or the consent of the majority or the approval of congress.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:09 | 2221598 Debeachesand Je...
Debeachesand Jerseyshores's picture

No,it's only paper.Gold is real money.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:28 | 2221626 unununium
unununium's picture

How would *you* feel if they were threatening to take away your magic genie lamp?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 19:11 | 2222655 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Just three more wishes!

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:01 | 2221785 trav7777
trav7777's picture


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:48 | 2221751 SelfGov
SelfGov's picture

Yeah the US doesn't want to be anywhere near anyplace that gets bombed by Israel.

How do you think it would look if all of our boats were in a position that made it look like we knew it was coming?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:49 | 2221879 Jake88
Jake88's picture

You're reference is void of real information.  According to media reports I have read there are at least two carrier battle groups and possibly four battle groups currently in the persian gulf.  That's pretty damned close. Have you been living in a cave?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 09:29 | 2221497 thadoctrizin
thadoctrizin's picture

What we don't know keeps the contracts alive and movin'

They don't gotta burn the books they just remove 'em

With arms warehouses filling up as fast as cells

Rally round the family, pocket full of shells...

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 10:57 | 2221573 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

The Shootist

A.I.M will often develop devices for HYDRA.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:24 | 2221058 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Has any country ever used nuclear weapons against civilians? If so, that would be the country to watch and disarm.

Oh. Nevermind.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:28 | 2221067 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Perhaps you forget that Japan asked for it by invading China and all of the South Pacific, enslaving thousands, raping and pillaging Nanking, sneak-attacking us, and killing our POWs. Plus, we were the first to get zee bomb  ;)

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:37 | 2221090 KingPin 999
KingPin 999's picture

I only have one problem with your statement. Japan didn't sneak attack us. We forced that reaction. We along with others cut off all of their oil imports with a blockade. That left them with two options, attack the blockade (our whole Pacific fleet was based in Hawaii) or give up their war effort by surrendering without even fighting. We damn well knew they wouldn't surrender without a fight which only left option one. We knew the minute we blockaded them that they would attack eventually.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:43 | 2221096 t_kAyk
t_kAyk's picture

(cough, cough)  Iran? 

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 01:48 | 2221104 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

That viewpoint is highly skewed. If Japan had stopped their war of aggresion and brutal occupations, we would likely have come to a treaty and lifted the blockade without bloodshed. You seem to imply that blockading a menace to world peace is an evil gesture? Sometimes I wonder...

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:07 | 2221129 covsire
covsire's picture

People who blame the US for Japan attacking pearl harbor are missing a few marbles.  It's exactly like blaming a strong kid for getting attacked by a bully, because he stopped supplying said bully with firecrackers he was using to torture some other people.  THe US stopped supplying the bully and then defeated him after it attacked unprovoked.  Sure, to a bully, stopping it's supply of ammo is going to piss it off, but it was in no way justified in it's attack.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:06 | 2221218 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Roosevelt and Co. cut of 2/3 of Japan's external trade and, by strongarming the Dutch re their E. Indies oilfields, 90% of Japan's fuel supply. Further, FDR demanded that Japan adjust its foriegn policy in its own E. Asian backyard to conform to America's interests instead of its own. Japan's choice was War or Surrender. Reasonably enough, Japan chose to fight. As will Iran, when finally cornered by Isramerica.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:55 | 2221277 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

So Tojo's imperialist Japan was a victim of U.S. aggression in WW2?  Are you people for real?

I'm beginning to see now that Europe is too far gone to even try to bring back to reality....and I thought America was bad.

Hope you all like your knew Russian landLORD when they take over:

This time America won't be around anymore to save your cowardly butts, so you might as well just give in to the Orwellian nightmare you've brought about and keep in mind it was YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 04:13 | 2221302 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

US citizens do not protect others, they further their own interests.

It is somehow funny and very US citizenish that in a post calling for coming back to reality, one US citizen tries to slip in that major fallacy.

This attitude will lead to major slaughters in the future.

At the moment, US citizens have committed to course of depletion of resources around the world.

As a means, they have to secure supply lines to ensure the extraction of resources is organized as they see it fit.

As soon as an area goes out of resources enough, the supply line has no cause to be.

It follows that securing it is no longer an obligation.

It follows that many people are going to be trapped on areas depleted of resources. Going to be some sort of parties downthere.

This is the future as brought to you by US citizenism. The rationalizations are going to be used by US citizens are also already known.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 07:05 | 2221384 PY-129-20
PY-129-20's picture

Every year Americans spend 1.3 billion USD in Rhineland-Palatinate. Yes, there are some people here - I didn't know that - that do not want American presence here. It's a minority. They have two arguments against American presence - 1. they are worried that in case of a nuclear war - Ramstein will be hit and Palatinate will cease to exist. Okay, I can accept this. But this is nothing new, is it? We had this the entire Cold war era. So, what's the other argument? Well, they don't like the aviation noise. Ha! Well, I know what they mean. I've seen what happens when a war breaks out or if there are any war preparations. But is this something new? I mean Ramstein is here for what? Sixty years? If you move there, you should know that there will be some noise.

Did you know that Americans built a lot of infrastructure here? They're building a new hospital right now in cooperation with Germany. They've built an ice-hall which is still used by Germans, although there are no American troops anymore in Zweibrücken. There are American festivals in Germany. And I've seen Germans and Americans getting along very well. You know what? I considered it to be exciting to meet someone from America. Let's face it. Palatinate is a beautiful region - woods and more woods - hills and more hills - castles and more castles. Small villages with a few hundred people. Something you don't find anywhere else in Western Germany. But it's also remote. Boondocks - is that the word? Well, never mind. I love it. This region is the heartland of Germany - it was the most important region in the ancient (Roman) and in the medieval times.

I don't feel occupied. I am sorry.  The kids don't feel occupied. They find it rather cool. You know what the only thing was that really disturbed me? Knowing that Jeffrey Dahmer was stationed in Baumholder.  As many people I am allergic to serial-killers. And Dahmer was just grotesque (I mean I had to watch this documentary about serial-killers once - and I've forgotten almost everything about it - but I couldn't get Dahmer out of my mind. It was nightmarish.).

Fortunately, I am not depending on the base.If I would be an American taxpayer I wouldn't be happy about the troop presence and I would want that this kind of money would be spend in the States. I am not so happy about the recent wars. I think they were wrong and that they've not helped the USA. Another war in such a short time and against such an enemy would be difficult. The terrain in Iran is very difficult - you cannot simply drop your tanks and move through it.  It's a vast landscape with many rocks . 80 million people. It's nothing like Iraq.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 07:15 | 2221411 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Read the first line:

Every year Americans spend 1.3 billion USD in Rhineland-Palatinate.

You know that one can emit one trillion dollars with no counter value at all and that trillion dollars has still good solid value?

You know that or you missed the last four years?

Your first line should read

Every year, Americans monetize 1.3 billion USD worth wealth in Rhineland-Palatinate.

That is a big difference.

The second version reports accurately the situation, yours make it sound like US citizens living in the US of A spend from their own pockets.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 07:43 | 2221429 Optimusprime
Optimusprime's picture

Typical emasculated post-WWII German response, learning to get along as an a citizen of a former sovereign state, now an imperial outpost of the the US/UK/Tel Aviv axis.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 08:53 | 2221470 PY-129-20
PY-129-20's picture

Yes, it's called an alliance.  And how did that work out? Would you've chosen to be an ally of the Soviet Union? Or would've loved to live in a fascist Germany? Let me tell you one thing - I am happy that we lost that war. Yes, there was a price to be paid and it was a costly price. But for the first time in our history we had a citizen-friendly state. It was not perfect. But compared to our history it was pretty good and the American lifestyle wasn't that bad. Or do you hate America so much that you don't find a positive thing to say about it? Yes, it's not a perfect country and we don't have to claim that Americans are angels and ride on unicorns. That country was built with a lot of hardship and the will to endure. And yes, it also included slavery, bloody wars,  and so forth.

I do not agree with all these current wars. I hate the fact that America is turning into a state that I hardly recognize anymore. But you know what? I still like Americans. And if you think that life would be so much better without Americans, think again.

We are a sovereign country, my friend. We did not go into that Iraq war, did we? Yes, we went with you to Afghanistan and that was a failure. Many Germans opposed that war and our government still did it.  Let me ask you - do you want to have an ally that doesn't help you? What kind of alliance do you want to propose? Germany was and is still a country that has ties to many other countries. We have a good relationship with Russia today and with China. I think our relationship to Russia is one of the most important. As important as the relationship to the US. Many from the former GDR here speak Russian. And we need to progress. The cold war is over. We have to move on.

"You know that one can emit one trillion dollars with no counter value at all and that trillion dollars has still good solid value?"

That is of course true.  It isn't what it used to be. And you got me there. But my point was: Americans are not like an enemy force that is just tyrannizing people. That I would call an occupation. We had that here. I remind you that Germany was divided into four parts - French, English, Russian and American. And I can tell you from my own experience that Americans were different than those other three.  The Russian did not care about the population - they would have killed people in Westberlin at the time. Sure - the Berlin airlift was about politics - but it was also a sign to the people of Berlin and Germany.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 09:34 | 2221501 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

I can appreciate much of what you say but you are forgiving the decay in American morals and world leadership because of it's past greatness. This is the battered wife syndrome.  You say that America is not so bad, but you say nothing of the millions of displace and/or killed civilians because of our imperial agenda since WWII.. The winners write the history, always keep that in mind.. One of my best friends lives in Germany and I heard him say the EXACT same thing 15 years ago "I'm glad Germany lost the war".. I think Germans are now brainwashed like the rest of the West.. This article reinforces my thinking..

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:56 | 2221771 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

The US followed the same blueprint in Germany that they did in the South in the late 1860's- destroy as much of the population as possible down to women and children, attempt to indoctrinate the young and denationalize them by shoving the concept of inherited guilt down their throats and painting themeselves as some type of liberator, and get their hooks into the political structure to appoint compliant scalawags. 

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 09:42 | 2221503 i-dog
i-dog's picture

An excellent response ... highlighing the nuances in a world that is not just black and white (there are coloureds, too :-).

Americans have trouble with nuances. It's why they generally don't understand irony and sarcasm ... why they come out with such classics as "you're either with us or agin us" ... why their talk show hosts often have to deliver punch lines 3 or 4 times, in a louder voice each time ... why they think everyone is "out to get them" ... why they can't differentiate between the leader and the party policy ... why they think each political party is diametrically opposed to the other.....

The current leadership of America is not acting in America's interests. It is acting in the interests of a globalist agenda that also includes the "leadership" of Europe and many other nations. The peoples of both sides of the Atlantic (and Pacific) are being taken down a path that they neither want nor will be happy with the outcome of.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 18:55 | 2222618 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture




Sun, 03/04/2012 - 09:14 | 2221485 prole
prole's picture

Are you talking about the sheople?

Emasculated serfs who shuffle about downtrodden in their slavery, humbly prostrating themselves before their masters at every turn. Even our Quisling Princes bow and scrape before their alien master:

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 08:22 | 2221449 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

I'm glad you don't feel occupied.   I'm sure you feel a lot better than if the Russians had gone all the way to the Rhein.

I don't care.  Germany is for Germans, and Germans should work out their own salvation or damnation without a US chocolate bar in their hand or a US bayonet up their ass.

What I do care about is that I am an American -- and the US Empire is killing my country. 

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 09:05 | 2221480 PY-129-20
PY-129-20's picture

That's true, Mick. As I said earlier - if I would be an American taxpayer I would be against this. And I think that the region needs to move on and to develop an economy that is not only depending on American presence. I agree with you totally - all these wars, the military bases around the world - it's killing your country. Among a few other things.

I am just tired of people telling me that I am occupied. Because it is not true.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 10:04 | 2221522 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Apparently, you are so tired of people telling you that you are occupied (for whatever it means) that you invent people who say to you you are occupied.

In the sequence of comments, where is that person speaking about occupation?

That or your comment got severely misplaced.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 10:11 | 2221526 KMS
KMS's picture

^ Are you fuckin stupid? Stop trolling.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:03 | 2221788 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Look Sparky, Im going to save you some time. For every post you make, just copy and paste this-

"Blah blah blah US Citizenism, yakkety schmackety US citizen, derp derp derp incoherent bipolar rambling."

The end effect will be the same. I have to applaud your effort to communicate and argue in your non-native language and no doubt you are more fluent in my primary language then I am in yours, but you are so far out there it would take interstellar travel to find the planet you live on.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:25 | 2221622 Grey-Ghost
Grey-Ghost's picture

"Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience ... Therefore [individual citizens] have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring."

 Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, 1950

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:27 | 2222162 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

anonymous has run out of dogbits again

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 11:51 | 2221659 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No-one seems to be able to comprehend that the governments of both nations were evil, and both were at fault for starting the war.  This is like two aggressive assholes refusing to back down from each other, leading to a drunken barfight and eventually one of them getting curbstomped out in the street.  Both parties continued to elevate the level of aggression until one was killed.  I wouldn't want EITHER in my house.

Wars are rarely if ever about good vs evil.  They are about less evil vs evil at best, as was the case with the Allies and the Nazis, but most of the time it is two or more sets of power hungry assholes manipulating public sentiment to get more power for themselves.

The fact is that good governments don't get into wars except when an evil government attacks them first.  All this pre-emptive war nonsense is just that.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:41 | 2221864 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Spirit of Truth - If we all fall short of the glory of God and require grace, how can it be 'All Our Fault'. I like the bible and have read it cover to cover, at least twice fully and many times partially. Your preaching condemnation instead of loss mitigation tells me the lessons of the bible, especially the New Testament are lost on you.

I'll let you know when I have raised $7 M to buy a senior political position to enact change...

As for speaking Russian or Chinese. I suggest studying physics as an addition to metaphysics. Here is your riddle Batman:

There was one kingdom and then there were three. After, there were three kingdoms then there was one. It seems John of Patmos understood but you do not. Will you attempt to improve your understanding? If not, should I condemn you for it? What about the pace of your learning? If it does not meet my taste do I get to judge it as in the eyes of God?

The answers to the riddles of two thousand years ago are in physics, the study of dimensions. I can read two thousand riddles myself so why exactly do I need you to do that for me?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:01 | 2222072 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

Ours is a holographic universe (N+1 dimensions embedded on n dimensions: 1.6180339^x - etc.) and our sense of "reality" is illusory. That's why consciousness continues after "death"....the animator is not the animated.  What's more, you are me and vice versa since separation is illusory.

What's important is: what's the meaning of the story in which we dwell....and that's why John referred to Christ as the WORD, i.e., the means by which God conveyed His meaning to the other characters in the book.

So how is it so many reading "The Book" (The Bible - religion) and/or examining the uni-VERSE (one verse - science) can get the meaning of what's been written so wrong? Tis a matter of JUDGMENT.  That's why Judgment day is what it is....the historical point at which the catastrophic error of man's judgment relative to God's judgment becomes clear.

As for condemnation, everyone is doing this to themselves no matter how hard I try to avert them which, arguably, is be definition of the story....and believe you me, God and I argue about that part of the storyline all the time, but it is what it is and apparently there's nothing I can do about it.


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 18:28 | 2222573 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:47 | 2222016 CTG_Sweden
CTG_Sweden's picture






“Roosevelt and Co. cut of 2/3 of Japan's external trade and, by strongarming the Dutch re their E. Indies oilfields, 90% of Japan's fuel supply. Further, FDR demanded that Japan adjust its foriegn policy in its own E. Asian backyard to conform to America's interests instead of its own. Japan's choice was War or Surrender. Reasonably enough, Japan chose to fight. As will Iran, when finally cornered by Isramerica.”





My comments:


There was also another choice (which the Japanese leaders probably did not consider because they like many other high-ranking leaders feel that they know everything and don´t need to ask ordinary people, like some non-senior engineer, for advice). And that other choice was to produce diesel oil substitute by using the Fischer-Tropsch method and to produce methanol from wood. Fischer-Tropsch diesel can be combusted by ordinary, unmodified diesel engines, especially when it´s not cold. Gasoline engines need a raised compression ratio in order to run on methanol. But that can be accomplished pretty simple by using thinner cylinder head gaskets or by shaving of some metal from the heads. In order to increase longevity, some tubes, hoses and gaskets should be replaced so that they can withstand corrosion for a longer time. Methanol is more corrosive than gasoline. Perhaps they could also have used some ethanol made from corn and sugar canes. But it is simpler to produce methanol on a large scale.


Of course Fischer-Tropsch diesel, methanol and ethanol would have been far more expensive than oil at that time. These fuels would probably have been more than 5 times as expensive as oil and gasoline at that point. But that would not have been an insurmountable problem. Furthermore, There were very few cars, trucks and lorries in Japan in 1940. Therefore, the investments required for a transition to Fischer-Tropsch and methanol would have been rather modest. Also keep in mind that Germany in 1944 and 1945, when they had lost the Romanian oil fields had to depend on Fischer-Tropsch diesel and methanol.


(Edit: And perhaps Thorium reactors is the additional option for the Iranian leaders today, just like the Fischer-Tropsch method was for the Japanese leaders back in 1940?)


I think that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the German attack on Poland are good examples on how much smarter Western leaders and lobbyists have been for 200 years compared to Asian and Arab leaders and Nazi/Fascist leaders.


Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin knew that if Japan would attack the Soviet Union in the back, the combined strength of Germany and Japan would probably have defeated the Soviet Union in early 1942. And if that would have happened, I´m not so sure that the allies would have been able to topple the Nazi regime. In any case it would have taken much more time. And if Germany could have afforded to spend more on developing nukes I suppose that the US would might have not have got nukes before Germany.


As regards Poland, which I mentioned above, I must say that Hitler got to have been really stupid when he thought that Britain and France could not declare war on just Germany but not the Soviet Union which took the other half of Poland. I reckon that less than 1 % of the voters in Britain and France after the war ever considered the fact that the Soviet Union took the other half of Poland. The general public does not reflect upon facts which the big media and opinion leaders do not put on their agenda. That is one of the basic rules on how mankind works. If people did not work that way, and questioned too much, it would have been hard for distinctive cultures to evolve around the globe. People are shaped by their environment. Perhaps this is somewhat harder for some Americans to understand since freedom of the individual historically has been a more important component in the American society than in other societies. But I still think that most readers here on zerohedge understand what I´m talking about.


It is also possible that Hitler overrated the importance of George Bonnet´s (the French minister of foreign affairs) opposition to a war on Germany and that he overrated the importance of similar attitudes among British politicians like lord Halifax. Furthermore, I also suspect that Hitler was a gambler and that he knew about the risks, at least to a considerable extent.


If Hitler had been really smart he should have given Eastern Prussia to the Czech people and moved the Germans to in Eastern Prussia and Danzig to the Czech part of Czechoslovakia. If he had done that he would not have needed a highway to Eastern Prussia and would have got rid of a piece of Germany that would have been very hard to defend. Of course, he would have been forced to change some paragraphs in Mein Kampf where he said that Germany should have more Lebensraum in the East (at least the land which was given to Germany in the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty during WWI). On the other hand he could always have blamed the Jews or his former conservative coalition partners which were still a part of the government as late as in 1938.


I also wonder why Japan tried to take a big chunk of China in the late 1930s, in addition to Manchuria. I just don´t get it. Why add hundreds of millions of people and very little natural resources to a small country which probably didn´t need more densely populated areas with people likely to rebel against their oppressors. But perhaps they thought that “since Britain can rule India, we can rule China”. However, I don´t understand how Britain benefited from ruling India. I know that Churchill thought that it was a bad idea to give up India in 1947. But as far as I know he didn´t state any economic arguments for that. I think that it made sense for Britain, from a rational point of view, to give up India in 1947. I also suspect that not even the African colonies with their vast natural resources were profitable for British taxpayers. I think I´ve read somewhere that Bertrand Russell thought that the colonies did not benefit the British taxpayers but rather businessmen who could make the taxpayers pay for the infrastructure but collect the profits from gold mines etc for themselves. Obviously, some people got very rich on business in the colonies. But I´m not so sure that the general public in countries like Britain, Belgium, France and Portugal benefited from colonialism. If that was true, I think that countries like Switzerland and Sweden should have suffered because of lack of colonies. But that did not happen. Instead, Sweden had become one of the most affluent countries in Europe by the late 1930s. 


Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:38 | 2222194 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Interesting speculations. Try dealing with hard reality. Once cornered by the Anglosphere, Japan had no time (or inclination) to develop Alternative Fuels. When you give a proud people the choice between surrendering or fighting, they will fight and fight hard. As Isramerica is about to find out. As for Hitler, yes, he wasn't all that bright. Given the military resources that Germany+Italy+Japan had during 1939-42, I could have won that world war in less than 6 months by seizing the Middle East. Hitler refused to go there for 2 reasons: it would have meant liquidating the Zionist colony in Palestine, which Nazi Germany had been instrumental in setting up during the 1930s; and it would have toppled the British Empire then and there. Hitler, like most Germans, was an Anglophile. More fool he.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 16:13 | 2222281 CTG_Sweden
CTG_Sweden's picture



"Interesting speculations. Try dealing with hard reality. Once cornered by the Anglosphere, Japan had no time (or inclination) to develop Alternative Fuels. "


My comments:

My assessment is that there was time enough to replace gasoline and diesel with methanol and Fischer-Tropsch diesel. Producing methanol from wood is so simple and can be done almost instantly on a small scale. Japan could have had thousands of medium-size methanol plants up and running before the attack on Pearl Harbor.

The Fischer-Tropsch method is perhaps not as simple. But keep in mind that diesel had not replaced gasoline as fuel for trucks in the 1930s (at least that was the case in Europe where there were still both diesel and gasoline powered trucks). Furthermore, I guess that the oil consumed by the trip to Pearl Harbor could have helped bridging the gap to the point when they could have had Fischer-Tropsch plants ready.

My impression is that general Tojo and his buddies were aggressive and stupid leaders.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 16:22 | 2222308 CTG_Sweden
CTG_Sweden's picture



"I could have won that world war in less than 6 months [...]"



My comments:

I suspect that Hitler and general Tojo had similar ideas about their own capacity. :D

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 18:49 | 2222599 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

They had no such ideas. Hitler was a piker, who never thought beyond seizing the Ukraine...until too late. Japs never wanted to fight America in the first place. Not THAT stupid. Roosevelt cornered them, so they fought.  As in 1914, the anglosphere Encirclement Powers (+Russia) forced the World War. Then, having won, wrote the history books. Which you read. Congrats.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 04:04 | 2221295 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

It's exactly like blaming a strong kid for getting attacked by a bully, because he stopped supplying said bully with firecrackers he was using to torture some other people. THe US stopped supplying the bully and then defeated him after it attacked unprovoked. Sure, to a bully, stopping it's supply of ammo is going to piss it off, but it was in no way justified in it's attack


That is quite a story. Never thought of applying for a hollywood script writer job?

Strong boy? Bully? At best, two bullies.

Imperial Japan just like Nazi Germany got their inspiration from the US of A.

Mere issue of rivalry as US citizenism pops them so much.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:44 | 2221871 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Except An Anonymous that Great Britain was the dominent superpower pre-WW2. Are you sure it was the U.S. that Japan was trying to imitate?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 08:40 | 2221460 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

try the mccollum memo...

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 14:07 | 2221933 goforgin
goforgin's picture

That's your ARYAN and ISLAMIST brothers egged on by ZH. No they haven't lost their marbles, they're insane.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:13 | 2221132 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

You are still wrong. It wasn't "about" Japan to begin with. Roosevelt and his handlers wanted into the EUROPEAN war before Russia went under...which it bid fair to do during June-November 1941, precisely when USA put the screws on Japan. Had Russia fallen and Japan not risen to FDR's bait - followed by Hitler 5 days later - it would be a very different world today. No Judeosphere.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:17 | 2221147 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Anyone looking for truth, read this -

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:19 | 2221149 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Roosevelt didn't want into the war at all, he didn't feel the need to meddle in European affairs and the American people were against it. Churchil practically had to get down onto his hands and knees and grovel to make him start stepping in the direction of helping Britain.

But I see your point, the Jews did it. And surely there was never a persecution and Holocaust, how clumsy of me.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:30 | 2221169 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

No, you are still wrong, and never mind "holocaust" red herring. Roosevelt, in connivance with Churchill and his Zionist handlers (Rothschild banksters, SA diamond moguls, etc.) spent 1940 and the first half of 1941 trying to slide the US into the anti-German war: convoying Brit ships in Atlantic war zone, attacking U-boats, and so on. All well known now, and at the time: when German subs finally torp'd 2 US destroyers FDR tried to get a declaration against Germany out of his own Congress, and Congress refused. So Japan then became, via the trade and oil embargoes, the back door to war. In all, a desperate and successful piece of strategic manuvering by WC and FDR.  

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:40 | 2221185 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Simply laughable. You're not going to win me over with your tinfoil hat theories. The U.S. was allied with Britain and France, and we probably would have aided them eventually against Hitler, as did the commonwealth countries. Like you said, it's hard to remain neutral when you and your allies are being attacked. Of course the Jews and HARP were probably really pulling the strings. LMAO.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:55 | 2221205 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

I don't expect to "win you over", Hasbara guy. You are a useful backboard. Thanks.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 02:56 | 2221209 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Lend lease went into effect in early 1941, the US was aiding England long before it actually got into the war and Roosevelt pushed Congress into ditching the Neutrality Act to do so.  Though not an open declaration of war it was clear that the US was not neutral.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:08 | 2221217 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Had the failed Nazi coup against Roosevelt not been thwarted by Smedley Butler and had not Churchill engineered the abdication of the Windsor Nazi heir...where would your Fabian Socialism have been then?...that's not tinfoil, that's history...the history of conspiracy and a fortuitous outcome preserving the freedoms that we enjoy today in the civilized west.

Freedoms that are currently under seige by the same pedigree of communist/fascist collectivism that stalked humanity only 75 years ago...

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 03:22 | 2221236 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Smedley Butler was a fruit loop and nobody took that nonsense seriously.

Yeah, thats tinfoil. There is a reason nobody took it for anything and there were no prosecutions. MacArthur made his bones running over the Bonus Army and even he made jokes about it.

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