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NYSE Volume At New Decade Low

Tyler Durden's picture


Both NYSE and ES (e-mini S&P futures) volumes were the lowest of the year so far. This is the lowest non-holiday trading day on the NYSEVOL (from Bloomberg) since its data began a decade ago and eyeballing ES volumes, this appears to be one of the lowest ever volumes of the last few years. For those who think this is irrelevant as the market's price has risen and so total USD volume remains approximately equal - wrong! Today is the lowest USD volume day since the mid 2009 (which tended to coincide with holiday trading volumes around July 4th) - making today's USD trading volume less than 50% of their 2004-2007 average!

A proxy for total USD trading volume - NYSE Volume multiplied by the S&P 500 is at decade low levels for a non-holiday period...


and NYSE Volume standalone...


Charts: Bloomberg


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Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:15 | Link to Comment non_anon
non_anon's picture

flatline, bitchez!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:07 | Link to Comment Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

everybody had to sell their stocks to pay for living expenses in The Great Squeeze of 2008 - present. but inflation is only at 2% right?  Just imagine what the volume will be in another 5 years lol

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:35 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

HFT waning

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 20:00 | Link to Comment Spigot
Spigot's picture

Its a potemkin market, my friends. The current volumn is mostly churn, not real trading. HFT and window dressing buy/sell within house to make it look like there's a market out there.

How the mighty have fallen.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 20:53 | Link to Comment willien1derland
willien1derland's picture

No volume=no volatility...nothingto arb...I move for a randomizing function to increase volatility so HFTs can stuff least those poor bankers at Goldman will continue to 'earn' their bonuses to invest in political campaigns...sarcasm off

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:21 | Link to Comment ACP
ACP's picture

It's still be only 3%, but a happy meal will be $10 and a gallon of gas $11.


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:26 | Link to Comment devo
devo's picture

This is a great point. One never mentioned anywhere.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 21:28 | Link to Comment non_anon
non_anon's picture

yeah, sold the last my stocks at a loss in 2006, stupid ass Disney

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:35 | Link to Comment boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

Greece, EUzone recession, N. Korea, Iran, (ALL middle east), American politics, unemployment, housing non-recovery, QE ending, market manipulation, China slowdown, deficit expansion......

I've been in it from before the bottom, but could lose it all with one bad headline!

Fool me once.....

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 11:04 | Link to Comment combatsnoopy
combatsnoopy's picture

How can the Dow be at these highs with no organic, human demand?  And what's up with China's ban against the US financial markets during our massive trade DEFICIT? 


And because China only agreed to limited openness for the financial services industry when joining the WTO, that provided a certain level of protection for the industry, analysts said.

"The government was being cautious with the financial sector," said Zhang Junsheng, a researcher with the Institute of International Economy, University of International Business and Economics. "It took into consideration how much the industry could bear." 


Meanwhile they bought up all of these US Treasureis that enabled excessive government growth over the private sector and enabled all of this corruption.  I'm calling China STUPID


"The fund needs to take a “serious look” at the financial industry in the U.S. and Europe to see if it’s ready for “serious discussions” about investment, Jin told the financial news channel."



The US was ranked 143 out of 148 in the world for private sector investments.

China was ranked #3.  Keeping inflation low isn't going to enable Americans to keep buying cheap Chinese goods.  Again, they're STUPID.  No face.  No wisdom.  Complete marooons. 

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:10 | Link to Comment JennaChick
JennaChick's picture

Stocks suck. People trade forex now with firms like Deutsche Bank or Armada Markets. Anybody long USDJPY the past few weeks have made a killing. Or EURUSD, Let's make some money!!!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:25 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

The spammin' scammin' shill now going by JennaChick continued his blatant and pathetic efforts thusly:

Stocks suck. People trade forex now with firms like Deutsche Bank or Armada Markets. Anybody long USDJPY the past few weeks have made a killing. Or EURUSD, Let's make some money!!!

Yeah, I can see why you spammers are eager to make money. Have you managed to pay off that $55,000 in fines (Illimar Mattus $25,000, Ingmar Mattus $30,000) from 2010? You must be legitimate since you neither admitted nor denied the findings, which is the mark of a true professional:

File No. CBOT 08-01215-BC Ingmar Mattus rectal prolapse Spada Capital terror bomb anthrax shopping mall crop duster polonium Charles Nelson Reilly claymore mine grenade launcher lutefisk IED assassination hijack Al Qaida ricin electromagnetic pulse RPG Federal Reserve CIA Mossad Lady Gaga detonator Lemmiwinks Hezbollah Guantanamo Santorum fisting plutonium Juarez Cayman Islands nuclear trigger Cleveland Steamer ljutefisk Howard Cosell Forex Fx Trading LMAX parrot and parakeet training tape beri beri carbuncle RPG clostridium Olde Frothingslosh ebola Dimona smuggling roachclip Butthole Surfers bongwater National Reconnaissance Office Don Rickles Backstreet Boys steganography Lee van Cleef kaopectate


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:34 | Link to Comment AbelCatalyst
AbelCatalyst's picture

Simple... The average investor has been chasing performance for years and the HFT's have been strip mining the markets relentlessly. People are done trying to compete and have simply stopped playing... They aint coming back until things get fixed (read: until TSHTF and the robots are driven off the field!). It really is Game Over and the pathetic volumes prove it!!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:36 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

huh?  People shouldn't be TRADING the market in this type of volume anyhow.

HFT is probably on the decline; a lot of the volume always was artificial.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 00:46 | Link to Comment AbelCatalyst
AbelCatalyst's picture

Agreed... Did not say TRADING, that was your word... As we know, average investors have a tendancy to invest in segments just as they peak. They don't watch stocks often - they get a monthly statement, their investments are not doing well, so they roll them over into the hottest segments just as they are topping... They lose a few percent here and a few percent there and the HFTs are strip mining those losses daily... People are beginning to understand this which is why mutual fund flows are dropping and volume is tanking... That's all I'm sayin,...

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 10:49 | Link to Comment bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

right on.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 10:27 | Link to Comment ndotken
ndotken's picture

So much of the trading has gone dark that the volume number is now completely meaningless ... just another way for Wall St to circumvent the rules to which the rest of us must adhere

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:15 | Link to Comment battle axe
battle axe's picture

Because people are scared and do not know what to do...

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:20 | Link to Comment swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

The big players only use dark pools these days.

What about dark pool volume?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:35 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture



Take the published volume number and divide by the number of your choosing between 0.00 to 0.70

The dark pool volume is somewhere in that range.


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:17 | Link to Comment PrDtR
PrDtR's picture


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:54 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture



Dark pools are not required to report their trades ... much less their volume

Tyler is an optimist thinking dark pools make up 70% of the published volume

My take is the volume of the dark pools can be estimated by DIVIDING by the range I gave ...

... the DIVIDE BY ZERO day  - May 6, 2010


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:02 | Link to Comment nasdaq99
nasdaq99's picture

Don't they have to report Dark Pool volume?  

But what about algo volume.  Extract out algo volume, the 100% cash to begin the day & 100% cash end of day stuff and there basically IS NO VOLUME.  Then EXRACT OUT BAC & C and there IS NO VOLUME!!!!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:33 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture


Or ....

... because people have wised up to the rigged game and are unwilling to serve as "the bigger fools" coming late to the game.

Some indication the mutual funds have been putting money in the last few weeks but the number is just over a billion and that's chump change.


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:50 | Link to Comment navy62802
navy62802's picture

They do know what to do ... grab a drink and watch the show. And that's what they're doing. Central bank action has chased most legitimate traders out of the market.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 03:13 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

My fellow (HFT) Robots are killing all you Humans! :>D

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 12:36 | Link to Comment Red Raspberry
Red Raspberry's picture

Where's will Smith when you need him????

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 13:19 | Link to Comment Conor
Conor's picture

"Because people are scared and do not know what to do..."

Excatly.  Just like me.


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:15 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

If Bernanke and Obama do not give an order for a crash or if the market delays a crash, NYSE may go out of business.

Only a crash will increase volume.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:20 | Link to Comment iamtheBernank
iamtheBernank's picture

Clearly your inferior intellect can not see that the market as I have prescribed it moves in one direction only. BHOmey and I have determined through the sheer power of our superior minds that we will guide the sheeple off the cliff while they are thanking us both for doing so. Volume shmolume...




Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:44 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:16 | Link to Comment Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

Pump up da volume.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:16 | Link to Comment f16hoser
f16hoser's picture

"Turn those Bots Back On!"

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:16 | Link to Comment LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

I guess that ONE person is still buying the F**KING DIP...

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:35 | Link to Comment UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Yeah, he's the one that peed in the pool....

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:18 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture



Whooda thunk S&P volume would be correlated with housing prices?  Oh my.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:18 | Link to Comment f16hoser
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:07 | Link to Comment tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

That's $1.60 premium just for a Ron Paul faced coin. I like Ron Paul and all but... c'mon.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:45 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

i didn't go to the link

these are not "coins" t_k;  they are not "monetized"

that guy, vonNuthouse, he "monetized" his!  see?  10 DOLLARS   <slam!>

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 20:20 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

_ow is the _amily Slewie? Always thinking about ya. Good man ya are. 


Sat, 02/25/2012 - 03:17 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Rounds are round like coins, but this particular round only stated the weight and purity of the Round.  The close to $5 premium over spot is kinda excessive, though.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:19 | Link to Comment Gomie
Gomie's picture

Is is skewed at all by the amount of ETFs now? Just curious how that comes into play. Certainly wouldn't explain the massive drop off but might account for some of it?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:26 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture


The first step is accepting you have a problem.

Change the channel from CNBC and step away from the remote.

Trust us, you will be better off without it.   (I know, they have women with large breasts in tight fitting clothes)

Now think for yourself ... the ETF's are required to rebalance daily which would mean they have to buy or sell shares of the various entities they use as a basis.

Just remind yourself your better off looking for market guidance on the Cartoon Network than CNBC.


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:44 | Link to Comment earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

Cartman for president

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:50 | Link to Comment HarryM
HarryM's picture

Short ETF pairs or variations thereof - but watch your ass if the market falls off the cliff

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:12 | Link to Comment optimator
optimator's picture

But...but, CNBC gives me a better laugh  when I wake up than the cartoon network ever could.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 11:02 | Link to Comment BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Bloomberg signed Margaret Brennan. Ditto Trish Regan. There went the boobs and the legs. Mandy Drury should go back to Australia. She will lose her silicone after a while, sitting so close to the NYSE floor.

I watch CNBC muted. Better that way. No chirping sounds of Becky Quick, leering at her husband off camera. Joe Kernan lost his marbles decades ago - amongst all those liberal idiots.

How Rick Santelli stays with the network is beyond me. Mark Haynes was the last of the good ones. How he put up with Burnett - and did so with galantry - should be studied at Wharton. She's now at CommieNewsNetwork - where she "belongs".

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 14:29 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Joe Kernan is becoming more negative by the day.  He has a scowl on his face all the time now. I hate the way he slaps his hands on the desk all the time.  I think he is afraid of Sorkin and being replaced by him because he always is picking on him, especially about the way he dresses.  Keeps trying to be Top Dog but he has lost it.  Plus, it is always me me me, I did this, I don't like this, yada yada yada.

And that Arrogant Guy on in the afternoon really gets under my skin.

Mandy?  Well if I wanted to watch an x rated video she would be ok but for her to sit there all day with her Boobs attempting to fall out at any moment is a disgrace to legitimate Women reporters.  I keep waiting for her to do a Poll Dance at any minute.  And the way she says Chiner instead of China.

I absolutely loved Mark Haynes in the mornings.  I especially liked Mark with Simon.  It was so funny.  It was watching Laurel and Hardy all over again.  Mark would say something in a kidding way and Simon would take it literally and get so indigent.

And Cramer my God.  What can be said about that Clown that has not been already said.  They had him on so much it almost became the Cramer show.  They had him on in the Morning, he kept popping in on Greenbergs show and taking over and then on the evening.  I dislike him as it is and to see him on every 5 minutes was revolting.

So, whats you gripe.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:19 | Link to Comment jcaz
jcaz's picture

The music slows.....

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:19 | Link to Comment PontifexMaximus
PontifexMaximus's picture

That's the way it has to be: we have to pervert the system and leed it ad absurdum. Only so, "systems" can proof to be right, or better said: be the DNA.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:20 | Link to Comment Fortunes Favor
Fortunes Favor's picture

Volume suffers and Transports are lagging Stalking The Bear: Trouble In Transports

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:20 | Link to Comment mv-pq
mv-pq's picture

What is the volume in dollars?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:20 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture


The lower the volume the cheaper the cost of keeping it going up - FRBNY making your tax dollars go farther!!


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:21 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

ahhhem, buy and hold guys

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:37 | Link to Comment WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

Yeah, that's what it is, because that's a new concept never seen before. By the way, I have some oceanfront property in Wichita for sale, if you're interested.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:37 | Link to Comment UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Yeah, I've got a bridge in Minneso....

Never mind.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:22 | Link to Comment swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

Calm before the storm. My VIX calls are waiting for some ouzo action in March.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:26 | Link to Comment Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Huh...I never made the connection.

And, as if the Fed really gives a shit.  They can print unlimited amounts of money or e-money at will.  They'll do whatever it takes to keep this show going.  Volume, low volume, no volume, abysmal volume....seriously, who gives a shit when it's decayed into a fucking sham?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:29 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture


You should.

Not for any altruistic reason - this is a global liquidity bubble being applied to solve a global solvency problem.

It will pop eventually and there will be a great deal of money to be made at that time.


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 21:26 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Right the FED banks dont care, and that extends to down markets being just as good as up markets, as long as they were all properly positioned ahead of time.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:30 | Link to Comment dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

The era of hot potato playing algos has reached a new phase.

I won't sell, if you won't sell, we all won't sell until we all sell.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:29 | Link to Comment Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

OK, computer - no alarms and no surprises, please?

Just get us to S&P 1400 by EOM.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:39 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture





Did someone screw up and let Steve Liesman join again?


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:44 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

No worries, I'll sell at 1399

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:49 | Link to Comment Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

Who has been more correct vis-a-vis the stock market over the past, say, three years?

1) Those who wrongly claimed we were going to plunge to new lows "after one more rally";, or,

2) Those who have been right in calling for surging equity markets.

Hint: The correct response is "2".

Hey, I'm not defending the print-fest we've been experiencing, not after seeing gas prices jump another six cents overnight.

I hate the players AND the game.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:28 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture


Are you are serious ...

At best you are misleading the innocents (why is volume important?) ...

At worst, you are just out and out dishonest.

How was all the that printing working out in early August? or middle of November?

All the printing that has been done since then has only set things up for a greater and inevitable fall ... and maybe some serious rioting, violence and deaths.

Don't worry, Pointless -

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 21:27 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Tsar yea the rear-view mirror traders rule about all others.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:52 | Link to Comment AccreditedEYE
AccreditedEYE's picture

If you're a pension fund or insurance co portfolio manager, you HAVE to be loving this market. Your investment mandate forces you to be long and the Bot's move prices ever higher every single day. All you got to worry about is the moment that all of your peers are gonna request the bill and get out of Dodge.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:44 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

The smart money has physical (revenue-generating) assets and small armies of lawers, guns, and money to protect it all.  Let the paper burn and know the value of your labor.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:10 | Link to Comment walküre
walküre's picture


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:45 | Link to Comment HarryM
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:46 | Link to Comment Cynthia11640
Cynthia11640's picture

I understand volume a little bit, but someone please explain more to me.  In other words dumb it down so I understand - thank you

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:20 | Link to Comment barliman
barliman's picture


"Once I was newb too."

As the price in a market index rises (S&P 500), the amount of shares traded (volume) is indicative of how much additional interest there is on the part of the traders to continue to buy into the shares being traded.

A period of rising interest will create a rally, as more traders pursue a limited number of shares.

A mature rally is often signalled by the volume dropping off as traders come to view the shares as having reached their likely premium price point for the time being.

As volume continues to diminish but share prices trade in an increasing narrow range, the market is considered ripe for a downturn as traders are likely to tae profits and look to reinvest their money in some other financial instrument.


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:20 | Link to Comment mittario1
mittario1's picture

Thank you barliman.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:46 | Link to Comment mittario1
mittario1's picture

Guys, This might be a dumb questions, but why is the low volume relevant? What does it suggest?


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:28 | Link to Comment Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

When the money stops, Wall street suits lose their jobs. When theives are unemployed ... Welcome to Mayhem

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:55 | Link to Comment tickhound
tickhound's picture

in short, a lack of conviction... Hence the continued "mysterious" melt-up has vaulted ben to level 33 magic-user status.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:55 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

HFT's playing ping pong all day makes it difficult to trade anything.

Especially with weekly options.  Sometimes it is just best to keep your money on the sidelines or in the mattress.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:58 | Link to Comment alpharack
alpharack's picture

That's extremely bullish.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:59 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

California refused to fund a train to nowhere. Why should I.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:59 | Link to Comment Implicit simplicit
Implicit simplicit's picture

They turned down the volume, but I still can't stand the synthetic algo driven music the market plays. Fraudulent 

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:00 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

No Trader can trade for a penny and make a profit, except the HFT computers.  So, they stay away.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:04 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 The NYSE is SOOOOO long, like the euro was short,(cot report ) that some " REAL MONEY" players should blow those stops OUT!

  As a matter of fact, I'll bet the plans are well in the works. Good luck sucker punching the specs/retailers this time guys! Hence the pathetic volume!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:08 | Link to Comment MayerRothschild
MayerRothschild's picture

Just needs some 'Seasonally Adjusting'

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:20 | Link to Comment vote_libertaria...
vote_libertarian_party's picture

Don't listen to CNBC?  Where else can you get such solid reporting?

Bob Pisani:  "Lowest weekly volume in years but that is because it is spring break."

(yes, he really said that today)

Spring Break???

1> Where is it Spring Break?  I think he is about a month early on that lie.

2> WTF does that have to do with NYSE and NDQ stock trading volume?  You think college kids are trading the bulk of the shares?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:57 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

He's got to keep his job and does what the boss tells him to do.

I'm sure he's got a mortgage and kids to pay university for.

You and I would probably act the same way.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:03 | Link to Comment breakyoself
breakyoself's picture

oh hell to the no! He really said that shit. LMAO.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:05 | Link to Comment El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

No, I think Bob PissAnt-ti was remarking on the (Arab) Spring Break. Which should just about be ready to kick-off any moment now. Things will really pick up for building supply manufacturers, Military Industrial Complex. It's Very Bullish!

sarc off>

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 21:33 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Maybe he meant Mid-winter break, its probably a new thing where all the stock trader college students with $150,000 in loans go drink beer for a week and stop trading.  

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 11:02 | Link to Comment The Axe
The Axe's picture

Yes,,,he did say that ....funniest thing I ever heard.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:45 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture



Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:48 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Do you work for { EURONEXT}?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 18:54 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

No man. I work in Toronto. I'm an engineer.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:07 | Link to Comment Robslob
Robslob's picture

Then engineer a crash already!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:10 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture


Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:12 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

A financial Engineer for the BoC?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:16 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

I wish.

Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:25 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

By the way.

Have you heard about house prices in Vancouver and Toronto?

Part of it is chinese abandoning China but most of it is very low interest rates plus....and this one USA copied from us. It's called CMHC.

I don't remember exactly, but at least 80% of house mortgages in Canada are insured by CMHC which is basically the taxes of the population. FHA is a copycat of CMHC.

So our 5 banks have no risk at all if mortgages default. They just make the mortgages, make the money via interest and if somebody defaults CMHC pays, which means I pay and all canadians.

It's going to crash, probably within 3 years.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:35 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Matter of factly, that Prime Minister of yours is highly frustrated right now. Am I correct? PPI and CPI. Albeit, you live in the market so would be considered a "source", of information. Any thoughts on that "KeystoneXL" extension?

  Sounds like a couple of babies crying over a " TEET", when you take the time to understand the process. Then again politicians are nothing more than 19th century " Bar room Culture". Agreed?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:53 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

Steven Harper was dreaming to become prime minister since he was 16 or so and adjusted his life to achieving his goal. He ran his (so called) conservative party like some kind of conservative - won minority government after canadians had enough of 16 years of Liberals-won again majority this time by shifting to the center and then center left thus taking Liberal's spot. He loves to spend but always talks about spending cuts.

As to the Keystone, there is a shock here in the Media and among politicians. Threats to build a pipe to China etc.

Fact is the USA badly needs Canada's oil and Canada is badly dependent on one customer only, USA. A pipe to west coast won't change anything and requires the approval of about 100 Native Indian tribes that have their rights enshrined in constitution. If they object, it would require constitutional changes and they.....are objecting.

Right now Obama needs the enviromentalist's votes and that's it. It's all about votes and Stevie has no option but to behave as if he's upset.

After next elections, whether Obama is still there or Santorum is the president, Keystone will start to lay down pipes.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 20:02 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Refer to the link "ekm". What most people don't realize, is that the " KeyStone pipeline already exists. The " Canadian oil is "NOT" going to China entirely. It will be mixed at Cushing Hubs. The inland Tribes are a problem, and will continue to be.

 Legislating yourself into oblivion, was something I saw decades ago. Unfortunately, as are most things in LIFE(). Decisions need to be made. They are being made by " professional' talkers. I really enjoy your enthusiasm and hope you continue to contribute to Z/H ekm. Lot's of good people here!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 22:32 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

Thank you, sir.

I love to teach and to get taught. Any correction of my knowledge is highly welcomed. It's always a process.

Making some money from time to time it's not bad, but knowledge is one thing, application of that knowledge is another thing. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that it is more luck than skills.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:26 | Link to Comment hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

I am always amazed how most people don't understand that Canada consumes just about 75% of the oil it produces.  Even though when you look at the numbers it would appear that Canada exports more than 55% of it's total production.

This due to the way the pipelines are layed out in North America.

Oil from Western Canada comes down into the US around the center part of the country, some of it then gets rerouted and sent back up to the Northeast (or the US sells light sweet to Canada) and the oil gets RE-IMPORTED into Canada to supply Toronto and Montreal etc.... And the excess East Coast Canadian Oil demand that cannot be supplied by the North American Pipelines into the Canadian east, is made up by importing from other sources like the middle east!

Just look at this map and you will understand.

Many years ago I had some TCPL engineers explain that it is a real pain in the ass to run pipelines thru the Muskeg, expensive to build and even more expensive to maintain. Hence no straight Canadian OIL pipeline from the west coast to the east coast.

I also believe that refining capacity (of the less desirable crude) plays into this equation (like Canada's LACK OF IT).

There is more to the Keystone pipeline issue than meets the eye. 

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:34 | Link to Comment hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

You may want to read this little recent news item regarding..

"Prices for Canadian light synthetic crude tumbled this month as burgeoning supplies, an outage at a major U.S. Midwest refinery and tight pipeline space led to record discounts in the mid-$20s per barrel under benchmark West Texas Intermediate crude. This was for March delivery."

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 00:26 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

Thx for the links but none of them showed that Canada consumes 75% of the crude extracted. I care about this info since I haven't been able to source accurately. Can you tell me another source?

My interest is in the net income since canadian oil can be purchases only with canadian dollars. Hence, canadian dollar is a petrodollar. However, if we are consuming most of our oil, petrodollar wouldn't make any sense, hence canadian dollar wouldn't oscillate higher and lower tandemly with crude oil price. does.

Again, can you tell me a source that concludes net income from crude oil exports?

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:57 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

And as to PPI and CPI, I don't pay attention to that. They have a dinner with strong wine prior to the release and they decide about the numbers by lottery (sarcasm). Same as in US.

At least in USA there is U3 and U6 unemployment data. Here in Canada, U6 underemployment DOES NOT EXIST. So U3 can be manipulated any way they want by removing or adding people as "looking for a job or not". And of course that is very "scientifically" calculated via "surveys".

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:07 | Link to Comment frieswiththat
frieswiththat's picture

I dont give a fuck how much money is printed or fiat is floated around...i trade what i see and not what i think the market should do. I got burned back in 2009 when the ppt came to town..right around the time i got out of /es and started trading likewise and prosper.

ps: fuck the fed but thank you for the trades!



Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:11 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

Here is an honest guy.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 20:46 | Link to Comment MarcusLCrassus
MarcusLCrassus's picture

Lol, no matter how much they try to prop the market up in the end it is in vain.  All the money in the world won't save these crooks from the inevitable.  The name of TPTB's game is 'delay delay delay'. 



Fri, 02/24/2012 - 21:35 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Right but delay implies that theres an event coming....cant just 'delay' for eternity. I think theyre all positioned for the rug to get pulled out about now.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 22:24 | Link to Comment hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

i have been waiting for that rug to get pulled out since the "dot com" bubble,

This is just amazing to watch. (sadly shaking head)

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 21:24 | Link to Comment Ura Bonehead
Ura Bonehead's picture

VOLUME !!??  Are you serious??  Who the hell needs volume !!??  I mean, that’s for schmuck retail low-life, right?  Who needs volume when we have dark pools, Algos, HFTs….  I mean, really !!


<sarcasm off>

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 22:22 | Link to Comment SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Profoundly irrelevant. Mom and Pop are largely out of the market; thus the volume. The professionals are buying common stocks; thus the prices. Mom and Pop will come back when it's time to get out; I hope this isn't too complicated for you.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 00:13 | Link to Comment ekm
ekm's picture

Mom and Pop are retiring and need cash for medical care and food. Chances are they will live quite long. Some are even taking low paying jobs to make ends meet.

I think this time the primary dealers are stuck with BAC shares. No mom and pop to dump to.

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 22:29 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 I hate those GREEN charts.  Mental averages are a " BITCH"!

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:47 | Link to Comment Philidor
Philidor's picture

Low volume?  I have three letters for you.  M... F... G...

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 07:36 | Link to Comment overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

a healthcare professional I know has been trading actively over the last 3 yrs..he talked to me this week about turning his investing capital (whats left) over to a money manager  as his losses have been large. over those 3 years he asked me many times why I was no longer investing in stocks. well this week he understood.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 09:38 | Link to Comment rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

We all know how the Fed's love low volume, makes their manipulation easier.

Several warning signs.............can't get above 13k on low volume, on a friday????  Not the biggest indicators lmao but certainly worth noting.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 11:47 | Link to Comment lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Maybe I'm crazy, but I pulled about 1/2 of my capital out and put it into (physical) PMs a while back.

The equities I'm still holding are only in basic staples, mining/energy and munitions. Barry X loves those drones. I put some money in the company that makes the motors for Hellfire missiles. The same company controls the big munitions plant in Missouri.


"In a world of Zombies, Lead is King."

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 12:25 | Link to Comment Atlas Shrugs
Atlas Shrugs's picture

The AED recommends "Shocking not advised".

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 13:36 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Wall Street has been shooting themselves in the foot for years.

1st they increased the amount of Money you need to Day Trade.

2nd they introduced HFT Computer Trading.  They made Money at first until the every day Trader caught on and stopped tradiing.

3rd now they have a new scheme.  Weekly options.  At least with Monthly options you would trade inbetween strikes because the Stock price only gravitated to the option price once a Month.  But, with weekly options it cuts down on trading because in many cases they hold a stock between option prices sometimes for a week just to sell options and on Thrusday and Friday it usually trades close to the option price for 2 straight days in a flatline.  Plus, buying or shorting a stock inbetween options only gives you a 50/50 chance it will go the way you want it to.  So, you sit on your hands and do not trade until you can see a move in either direction.

So, the Market has become nothing but a controled market from HFT and weekly options.  Options have become the Tail that wags the dog.  If you want the Stock to move in a specific direction you load up on options at that price.  If you want to sell a large order you set the HFT to play ping pong at that price for the whole day or week.  If the stock starts to diviate from that price you tell the Computer to buy it back up to that price and hold it there.

Is it any wonder why no one Trades anymore?  Yet, Wall Street misses scalping Money from the Retail bunch and cannot understand why no one is in the Market anymore.  Now, the only people they have to scalp is themselves.

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