This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Obama Takes Class Warfare To The Next Level With The "Buffet Rule" And A New "Millionaire Tax": Is A Market Selloff Imminent?
In his increasingly desperate attempts to pander to a population that has by now entirely given up on the hope, and barely has any change left, Obama is going for broke (or technically the reverse) by setting the class warfare bar just that little bit higher. This time around, his targets are millionaires, who according to the NYT are about to see their taxes soar. Or not: nobody really knows if the proposed "Buffett Rule", affectionately known for crony communist #1, will impact just millionaires income tax, which incidentally is the same as what everyone else is paying, or, far more importantly, their Investment Income, which is where the bulk of America's wealthy income comes from. Which incidentally makes all the sense in the world: two and a half years after Bernanke has been desperately doing everything in his power to raise the "wealth effect" if only for the richest 1% of the US population, it is, from the government's perspective, time for the taxman to come knocking and demand his share of the capital gains. Yet what is lost in this ridiculous proposal are the unintended consequences, which always follow idiotic decisions arising out of central planning, number one of which would be a market crash as those who have paper gains since the market lows of 2009, scramble to lock in the old capital gains tax rate of 15% instead of holding on to paper profits that could end up being as high as 35% (or more): an event that would cut actual income by over 25% should one wait to cash out! And since 25% is substantially more than anything that Twist and QE3 and 4 could hope to achieve, it is all too conceivable that those holding on to profitable positions will have had enough, and take their profits, likely converting them into physical and non-dilutable assets along the way. As to whether they would subsequently relocate to far more hospitable countries, such as those that don't foment class warfare, and implicitly invite a civil war, that remains yet to be seen.
In the meantime, here is how Obama just made sure his already record low rating is about to plumb depths unseen since the time of Jimmy Carter, via the NYT:
President Obama on Monday will call for a new minimum tax rate for individuals making more than $1 million a year to ensure that they pay at least the same percentage of their earnings as middle-income taxpayers, according to administration officials.
With a special joint Congressional committee starting work to reach a bipartisan budget deal by late November, the proposal adds a new and populist feature to Mr. Obama’s effort to raise the political pressure on Republicans to agree to higher revenues from the wealthy in return for Democrats’ support of future cuts from Medicare and Medicaid.
Mr. Obama, in a bit of political salesmanship, will call his proposal the “Buffett Rule,” in a reference to Warren E. Buffett, the billionaire investor who has complained repeatedly that the richest Americans generally pay a smaller share of their income in federal taxes than do middle-income workers, because investment gains are taxed at a lower rate than wages.
Mr. Obama will not specify a rate or other details, and it is unclear how much revenue his plan would raise. But his idea of a millionaires’ minimum tax will be prominent in the broad plan for long-term deficit reduction that he will outline at the White House on Monday.
In other words, another typical Obama ploy: let the details be ironed out in the future, but for now we just want to accentuate the class animosity. After all, it is all too obvious that those millionaires, like Buffett, who so desperately want to show their patriotism for America, are in no way aware that the Treasury has this thing called Pay.gov which allows such uber-patriots to whip out their credit cards and pay down America's record debt, in essence voluntarily doing what Obama plans to enforce for everyone else. We are certain that Mr. Buffett will promptly demonstrate to the public his receipt from precisely such a patriotic transaction.
As for the proposal, to say that it is doomed would be optimistic:
The Obama proposal has little chance of becoming law unless Republican lawmakers bend. But by focusing on the wealthiest Americans, the president is sharpening the contrast between Republicans and Democrats with a theme he can carry into his bid for re-election in 2012.
It could also reassure Democrats who have feared that Mr. Obama would agree to changes in programs like Medicare without forcing Republicans to compromise on taxes.
The administration wants such a tax to replace the alternative minimum tax, which was created decades ago to make sure the richest taxpayers with plentiful deductions and credits did not avoid income taxes, but which now hits millions of Americans who are considered upper middle class. Mr. Obama has said that many average Americans could see a tax cut if the system is overhauled, since ending many tax breaks would allow for lower rates while raising more revenues from the wealthiest.
The millionaires’ tax is among several changes Mr. Obama will propose in urging Congress to overhaul the federal income tax code next year, both to raise revenues for reducing deficits and to make the tax system simpler and fairer, said the administration officials, who agreed to speak in advance of the president’s announcement on the condition of anonymity.
The millionaires’ rate would affect only 0.3 percent of taxpayers, they said. That would be fewer than 450,000; 144 million returns were filed for 2010.
That's wonderful: in other words it is very few of the people who, mostly through years of hard work, have succeeded in breaking through the vaunted 7 digit net worth figure. But the good news is that Buffett, instead of focusing on his own share of philantropy, believes that it is his centrally planned duty to enforce his strict lack of moral code on everyone else. Too bad the other millionaires do not have the billions necessary to become one with the TBTFs and know that whatever they put their money in, Uncle Sam will never let it blow up.
If Obama wants to enact a Buffett Rule, how about instead of addressing taxes, said rule makes it clear that capitalism is coming back to replace the crony communist regime we have all grown to love and enjoy for the past 3 years, and individual failure is once again an option, instead of the socialist risk phenomenon that Buffett, more than any one individual America has grown to symbolize and represent?
Furthermore, when the $1MM cutoff fails, which it inevitably will (the rich are rich for a reason: they tend to be, for the most part, quite adept at finding loopholes), and those targeted promptly "offshore" themselves, what will Obama's next "rich" cutoff be: $500,000? $100,000? $25,000? Those on Earned Income Tax Credit? Sooner or later, you know Obama is coming for you.
Lastly, and presumably comically, considering that 41.2% of the "middle class" pays no income taxes, we wonder if this is not just a ploy by a wily Buffett, who knows the loophole in the tax code better than anyone, to make sure that nearly half of all millionaires pay... absolutely nothing.
»
- 35102 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
But I actually like the idea.
I like the idea of taxing all union members at 100% and letting them starve to death. A better tomorrow
sun-there has to be a cutoff. So, let's be lenient and do the 100% thing for all Stewards and above in the blood-sucking structure. Oh, and the "enforcers" too.
- Ned
That 100% tax would rightly complete the cycle - all of the stimulus is targeted to unions - large (Davis Bacon) federal construction projects, teachers, govt employees of all flavors including police and fire. So they just send back what the government (me and you) gave them.
If Buffet feels like he is being taxed unfairly he can always go here and do his patriotic duty instead of volunteering other peoples money -
(Buffet, click the link and pay what you feel you owe. You have two convenient payment options; check or credit card )
https://www.pay.gov/paygov/forms/formInstance.html?agencyFormId=23779454
For everyone whom doesn't have 50 billion dollars you can track donations here and wait for Buffet to make right such an unjust tax system by waiting for his donation (don't hold your breath) at:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/gift/gift.htm
....lemme guess, it's not fair to donate unless everyone else is forced to contribute via taxes.
Is your amazing trader on fire run in a tax sheltered situation? If not what sort of taxes will you get stuck with at the end of 2011? Up here in Canada I stay clear of the shelters and declare capital gains heavy in slow years. Typically at the end of the day I'm paying 15%.
Excellent strategy. And good for you for employing it to your own advantage--personally, I have no problem with anyone (individual or business) that decides when and how much tax they pay. If you can book the capital gains in a slow year to avoid the penalty for being successful (paying taxes) then you should. Every dollar that goes to the CRA is wasted.
The only people that cry about it are the ones that never had the ambition to take the world on--so they try to drag us down into their 9-5, average salary, ten days vacation unionized cesspool.
You're right, of course. I love the Goldman's executives and the directors of JP Morgan and the Rothschilds - real go-getters who have had the ambition to take on the world. They should be rewarded for it, not taxed.
The super-rich elite are there because they deserve to be, surely? The idiots on welfare or low-paid 9-to-5 jobs are there because of their weakness and their life-choices, right?
Tax the poor because they deserve it. Leave the rich alone because they have ambition...
Except that lately, the taxes FROM the poor have been used to make sure that the super-rich stay that way. Taxes FROM the poor have been used to keep the stock markets and the banks afloat. Taxes from the poor and the lives of the poor have been used - via the medium of trumped-up wars - to enrich the leadership of Haliburton et-al.
I think this Buffet tax is just more cynical electioneering bullshit from Obama and SOME of those who are rich are rich because they deserve to be, but if it's the rich from Wall Street then I say tax them into the floor... then arrest them... then execute them.
I have no arguement with any man that has earned what he has.
I have a problem with the offspring of these men--silver spoon, trust fund babies et al.
Should I pay tax--no.
Should the poor pay tax--certainly not.
I agree that this current system has vampired a lot of good people and that some (most) of those at the top are living easy off of this freely flowing blood.
All I can say is that it's each man for himself. For me there's nothing outside my family--and if I have to hurt yours so that mine may live, then that is exactly what will happen.
All I can say is that it's each man for himself. For me there's nothing outside my family--and if I have to hurt yours so that mine may live, then that is exactly what will happen.
Yes, but if you have to hurt mine so that you can buy a new yacht? So that you can buy a new mansion?
I agree with what you're saying--greed is ugly.
The disgusting truth about being alive today is that what you're describing actually do happen (a foot of boat for a pound of flesh).
I have never minded anybody climbing the ladder, but these fuckers are pulling the ladder up behind them.
Check out your kid living in the basement, He's got 687 friends on Facebook and is an Area Manger at Best Buy making 28K/yr for all of the hours he can work. He can't move out or he won't be able to service the student loan.
Besides Marx and people who lived the The Depression, has anybody else figured out a country can't grow when we're taking-in each others' laundry?
They have just about finished off the seed corn.
Either you rent money and fuck your future, or you have a job as a Money-Renter.
Waitresses, sales clerks, and bank managers. Welcome to The New Feudal.
Adam Smith would shit himself, if he could see this.
All I can say is that it's each man for himself. For me there's nothing outside my family--and if I have to hurt yours so that mine may live, then that is exactly what will happen.
You sure sound like a model citizen, not to mention a great neighbor. Your statement shows that evolution still has a long way to go. I guess when the revolution comes, your neighbors will make sure they slaughter your family first. That will take away your incentive to go instinctual and "hurt (them) so that mine may live".
There seems to be an inconsistency in your post. You'll hurt somebody else's family so that yours may live, but you're against passing on wealth to children?
Were you f-in serious above when you said you shouldn't pay tax? Let everyone else do the heavy lifting while you just keep on being you, eh?
"Tax the poor" ? Those who make 20% of total income pay 37% of total federal income taxes. Those who make 47% of total income pay ZERO federal income taxes. Tax the poor? Absurd. And if you don't like Social Security taxes and what your administrator has done with your contributions to that system, I will help you get rid of that system.
The income Buffet earns is primarily dividends and capital gains which has already been taxed 35% before it got to him. So he is closer to paying 45% in taxes now. We know that corporations do not pay any taxes, but just collect and pay them on behalf of their shareholders and customers...individuals.
The whole arguement is sort of BS. The muslim and his Dem cronies refuse to cut anything. I have seen plenty of O voters who seem to be doing very well financially in this Depression. Very curious where the $9 trillion went to.
Not a peep from either side on ending these pointless wars with no objective except protecting the Sunni Saudis from the Shia who want them dead. Oil - we have more nat gas than we know what to do with. The Saudis and othert muzzie scum can eat their fVkking oil.
Most Americans or westerners have no clue on how much the Shia and Sunnis hate each other. They are too busy watching moron TV where every channel is for serf morons.
Your squalid little nazi party is in charge of the house and the house holds the purse strings, so who again is not cutting? As of the last election all budget/tax problems belong to the GOP.
Better than the 28% tax on PM profits.
Buying and selling physical ounces privately for cash is not impossible.
Selling coke or heroin isn't impossible either but it's also illegal.
I'm sure if you start doing that in large enough quantities (black market gold selling) it will invite the IRS up in your business as well as Federal RICO investigations. The government is gona' work hard to get their piece of pie.
The trouble with alternatives to cash/ or uninsured real PMs held at home is that the you cannot hide them. PMs are superior as they keep their value. Generic bullion for wealth preservation is excellent due to the privacy it gives you by taking banks out of the equation. The story of the theft of all of Ghadaffi's personal wealth except his cash and physical gold by those murdering his people and looting his country makes an extreme case for everyone everywhere to move to physically held metal.
Who are the largest holders of gold?
Banks/Central Banks/Irresponsible governments.
Why do you want people buying so badly?
How much do you need?
And by that, I mean really need. It's a personal decision, and I guess I don't really care if you feel that you must have a sailboat and a mansion and a platinum-plated Rolls Royce. But if you do feel that you need those things, and have that kind of money, the discussion is already moot- the people in that class have enough that they actually benefit from participating in the system.
For the rest of us, there is rarely a reason to be selling enough gold or silver for anyone, much less a government that counts small change in billions, to care whether or not we sold an ounce or two of anything for a small profit.
If it's a hedge, and not simply a trade, there's no reason to be selling enough gold or silver to attract the notice of anyone. Take a single Kruggerand to a coin shop, and get the cash- no muss, no fuss. The guy behind the counter doesn't care where or when you got it, and will just be happy to be buying low and reselling for a profit.
You can buy a whole lot of groceries, electricity, clothes and gas for an ounce of gold. Enough for a month, I'd say- and that is not enough to attract the interest of anyone.
Capital gains tax in Hong Kong: 0%
yep, and that society is thriving like no other. out of nothing, and under the shadow of a communist hyper-power that could take them over literally any minute. yet because they practice the truest form of capitalism on the planet, by rewarding success and allowing failure and minimizing government meddling, their economy is one of the most dynamic.
regarding The One's latest nonsense, i'm genuinely beginning to wonder whether this is not actually a cynical electoral ploy, but instead pure economic ignorance. i seriously don't think he understands the concept of risk/reward, likely because he's never had to deal with that balancing act in the real world. he has now routinely compared Buffett's investment income with Buffett's secretary's income -- never once appreciating that Buffett's secretary doesn't run the risk of showing up for work every day, without any paychecks, only to find out she's lost $50K at the end of the year. The Messiah really does seem to believe that positive investment returns are automatic. which is rich, coming from a guy who blew up GM bondholders' belief that a low-risk, low-return investment was indeed low-risk.
he also seems not to understand income mobility in the US -- that we don't have castes, and that anyone can move from any quintile to another quintile in any given year. that neither the "rich", "poor", nor "middle class" consist of the same people every year. so by demonizing the "rich" he's in effect demonizing aspirations and extra effort.
look at how entrepeneurs are treated by our tax code: you sacrifice a higher, stable salaried income to take a chance on an idea that carries a lot of risk, you work ridiculous hours under enormous stress, you create jobs and hopefully add something to society, and you have no idea yet whether you've just wasted years of your life and tons of your money to try and create something that the market will reject. but when, god willing, you finally end up succeeding 5-10-20 years down the line you can count on the government to punish the shit out of you if you have a good year. oh, and you don't get backpay for all the years you sucked it up for your idea, and you don't get your money back if your idea failed. you just get punished if you actually make it.
Last I checked Hank Paulson was on his knees begging for "government meddling." That says it all.
In 'N Out Burgers in Hong Kong: 0
Oooh, we can use our credit cards to donate to reduce the public debt!
God Bless America.
Debit with a Visa/Mastercard logo also encouraged.
Honestly, I'm halfway tempted to throw a couple hundred bucks at the Treasury website, in the hopes that it will pay off in the form of a get-out-of-jail free card later on.
Wouldn't be that hard for them to keep a list of those who have shown their "loyalty" to the system, and therefore are entitled to certain exemptions later on. Could be a cheap and valuable hedge, or it could just be a waste of money- in any case, it's no more a gamble than purchasing any given stock right now.
"If Buffet feels like he is being taxed unfairly..."
Its incredible isn't it?
(Buffet to accountants)...Get me every damned deduction possible or I'll fire your ass & find accountants who will!!!
(Buffet to Obama)...You guys don't tax me enough.
(Obama to the people)...Buffet says his taxes are too low so we, er ahhh, need to raise income taxes...starting with muni bonds that retirees use for an income stream in the Jobs Bill that I will, er ahhh, someday submit to Congress...maybe.
My head just exploded...lol.
This weekend's Barron's "Penta" section shows how the Really, Really Rich (RRR) live.
Anyone interested (Firebird, where are you?) in my blog (with a review of this weekend's Barron's and an article on the "one day only" exhibition of the HUGE KH-9 spy satellite) are invited to gmail me at my name for the link. I ask ZH-ers to do this because I write under my own name, I only ask that you please behave as my blog is not Fight Club. Also, it's harder for the robots to mess with my blog.
I can easily get to the Barron's Penta section without going to your blog.
What a miserable bunch of bullshit about silver-spoon trust fund babies indulging themseves.
And YOU purport to show us this useless lifestyle?!?
You are a PIG!
Oh snap!~
No, he's a high quality bearing, never from China. Me, on the other hand ...
@ crisismode
Of course you can. For $5.00. Don't shoot the messenger.
I think not.
I don't know DoChen personally, but I have read his blog, and have seen his comments for a long time. His heart is in the right place, and if he's a "PIG," he's not very good at it.
You, on the other hand, I am not so sure about.
Zero Hedge is all about how those rich bastards are screewing us over and this, that, and the other, until someone actually proposes that the rich pay more taxes for all they get from the state. Then the hysterical wailing begins. OH MY GOD, HOW CAN THE SUPERRICH AFFORD A 1 POINT RISE IN THEIR MARGINAL TAX RATES?!?
Fuck the rich. Raise their taxes, let them fail, shoot them if they whine. Fuck them.
"Fuck the rich. Raise their taxes, let them fail, shoot them if they whine. Fuck them."
Waterboard the rich.
Send their sons into slavery.
Send their wives and daughters into prostitution.
And then, send their cadavers to medical schools in the Caribbean so that poor med school students can carve them up.
.
If you'd met some of them you'd realize that would be the first and only time they'd be actually contributoing something to society.
Inherited wealth no longer brings with it the slightest concept of 'responsibility'. Their only focus is holding on to what they could never earn on their own.
And too many of those who 'worked hard' to achieve their success worked only to screw over others, scheming and conniving to get where they are. Think 'Chainsaaw Al Dunlap' who made a mess of every company he got near. I soent too much time on Wall Street where execs were more concerned with holding on to what they had - and getting MORE (always MORE) than actually doing their job. A former EVP - tasked only with developing a new broker system fired anyone smarter than he was (a LOT of people) and then found he had no talent left to do the job. He faked progress until management caught on and defacto demoted him to a regional head so he could 'demo' his new system. Somehow he got out and eded up CEO of an Insurance company which he ruined. Longtiome employees came to hate a place he opnce loved. Clients got screwed but execs got rich. This is the same guy who was tapped to head AIG - spending more time at his estate in Croatia than doing his job. A long time friend in securities law saysa 'All I do is make rich people richer - they can't spend it as fast as they make it." He is depressed and demoralized - 'This is not what I got into law for.'
Those at the very top of the income pyramid look on the rest with contempt. They do not work hard to earn theri mooney - but get it through scheming and fraud. I heard one explain how to deal with contractors - someone haveing hundreds of thousands of work done on an lalready huge house: 'I pay 1/3 up front, 1/3 half way through and never pay the rest...' They stiff the person who gives their child violin lessons thjough mking a big deal of thier charitable donations (only to causes that advance their social standing).
Those that actually WORKEDD for theri money - who built companies or made real money for their employers are different cases entirely. Those that came from nothing and remember their roots treat their employees well. They are also generous with the money they've made.
Sounds like we know a lot of the same people. Epic dipshits, pure and simple.
Your descriptions pretty much agree with my own observations of the so-called wealthy. I have met people who can make money doing industrious things, and they are generally the most unpretentious of any I've ever met. Smart, intelligent, and generous. The others.... never mind.
Hilarious. Obama and the Dems will not let anything be cut. They are looting the Treasury. The GOP does nothing to oppose his wars and wants to block any defense custs. Cut it all - 15% across the board. Keep cutting everything 1% until the budget is balanced. But hey domb MF'ers - just taxing the rich will not solve the problem.
Dumb sheep. Obama plays you idiots like Neal Schlong from wased up Journey plays that Arab losers guy and his soon-to-be ex-wife's verginia.
There is nothing left in the "Treasury" to loot.
Anyone who says "raise taxes" though placing the phrase within clever reasoning, like "hell it's only one percent increase, and only on the SUPERRICH!" is either a fvcking Commie who wants to extract more money out of my private sector pocket, or some scheming clever dot gov jackboot gleefully anticipating stuffing the money into his or her pocket.
Probably both. FU.D.
Exactly! Fucking pay enough taxes already!
It has to be said- your avitar is fucking creepy. I like it.
Is that photoshopped, or did you actually find a candid shot of someone that looked like that for even a moment?
imo you have that backwards. the superrich extract wealth from the public AND the private sector to pay for lavish lifestyles and political influence.
I'm having a damn hard time mustering any tears for the wealthy. Class warfare is starting just now? It's a war that has been waging for a long time. Bankers, along with their supporters in government, tried to portray the interests of Wall St. and Main St. aligned. They aren't. There hasn't been a "class war" from the middle class towards the rich, but there's been a ferocious one the other direction. They are financial predators, and we -- everybody whose net worth is less than eight figures -- are their prey. Since they can't literally eat us alive instead they eat our money, our livelihood, our hopes, and our dreams. Boo Fucking Hoo.
NEWSFLASH - the rich have already WON any class war.
Poverty in the US is up, foods stamps at record levels.... the list goes on. But the stock of Tiffany, Coach and other luzxury brands are up while WalMart is seeing a decline in sales - with sales spiking on the first of the month when government benefits kick in.
Personally I will have to concede victory posthumously. Further, this bullshit from Obama is just that. Bullshit. The top of the ponzi will wriggle out of taxes. No amount of fancy "statistical" charts "proving" the contrary will be pursuasive. But that's just me.
If there's really class warfare, why aren't most fighting back?
The Event Horizon has been Breached, the Nash Equilibrium Broken, but the Enormity of such yet to be truly experienced.
It is not "when TSHTF"
It's now hitting.
In process.
Just that only some of us are clued in.
Gonna get butt ass ugly if a whole bunch of the world gets pissed at the same time.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
prole, I agree. I always had respect for people who posted here, but the comments for this post are just pure, commie crap.
For the commies, who do think provides more jobs? Millionaires or folks who make $30,000?
Stop painting a broad brush and assuming all millionaires are bankers who are only there to suck you dry. Most are small business owners and they employ most of America.
How about the government stop spending so much damn money so that it wouldn't have to tax so much in the first place?
Your name says it all about you. Bitter much?
How's the unemployment working out for you?
It certainly wasn't the end of the world, or the USA, when the rich were taxed at much higher rates in previous decades... nor did they flee the country en masse.
It's great how on ZH you can get junked for telling the facts.
It wasn't the end of the world when the US didn't have a dept of education, or engage in deficit spending, etc, etc. I think most people would trade Clinton-era tax rates for Clinton-era spending levels.
Even in the days of the 92% marginal rates, government collected less than 20% of GDP in taxes, just like now. The brackets were MUCH higher, adjusted for inflation, and there were a myriad of loopholes that could be used by anyone with a good accountant. Deducting phantom passive losses against earned income, for example. The AMT did not fall from a UFO one morning; it was brought in because of stories of exceedingly rich individuals who paid little or no tax despite high real income and marginal tax rates of 70-92%. An *effective* marginal tax rate that high on a much lower level of income would be a much different animal, and nothing remotely like it has ever been tried before. It would be absolutely disastrous for the country.
"vaunted 7 digit net worth figure"
Income over $1 million per year is not "net worth". Just saying.
Is so very unsettling listening to folks confuse the two.
War is Peace, etc.
Millionaires get talked about an cutoffs established at $200K, etc., etc., etc. Entitlements to be slashed, but no talk about the Deptmts of Energy, Commerce, Education, etc., etc., etc....
The Immersion into the Hegelian Dialect is Nothing Short of Amazing
Exactly. "Millionaires" means what? If you make 40k a year in a blue collar job and save like hell all your life to retire and have $1M in the bank now you and Warren are in the same boat? Thanks to Chairsatan Bernanke there is no yield anywhere to be found and real inflation for someone trying to retire off their savings is off the charts. So now comrade Obama is going to tax the shit out of your 20k in interest you make in that 2% 10yr bond?
This thread makes me sick, as if this many smart people can't figure out the game being played, and drone on with all the "pay your fair share" bullshit, we are truly screwed. They aren't going after Warren and his buddies; so if you aren't already 2 yachts deep, or already "institutionalized" and living under their thumb and on food stamps, maybe you should look again as they are coming after you! You'll never get to the super wealthy playing their game. They have trusts inside LLC's inside of international trusts inside Carribean banks inside Swiss Holding companies. They write the laws for fucks sake. You think they aren't going to write in a loophole? This is all their trick to get you to tax the middle class even more. You can confiscate all the wealth of every millionaire in America and it won't solve our debt issue. So keep lathering yourself up with the class warfare soap the super rich are handing you. It's all part of the plan to make everyone not in the club broke and dependent on Big Brother.
We are far over the cliff (and the Laffer curve) at this point, it doesn't matter what you tax people as the math on this turd clearly states this thing goes down like the Hindenburg or congress has to make spending cuts into every department, program and unfunded liability so drastic we would enter a depression and the people relying on government would burn washington d.c. to the ground. And I'm pretty sure the spineless lap dog politicians in Washington aren't going that route. The superwealthy get so because they rig the game with government and buying politicians. You want to win the class warfare against the super wealthy?, stop sending the fruits of your labor to a completely corrupt government owned by the bastards. If you starve the government beast (through lower taxes mind you) you'd have 100 times the odds of stopping the growing class inequality. But it's much easier to get free shit from Uncle Sugar and blame someone else for the fact we've let our schools and communities go to shit right in front of us isn't it?. So just keep watching your Telescreen for Big Brother's next instruction as to who you are supposed to hate and how much of your private property you are supposed to send off to be confiscated in the name of the "collective".
yakmerchant +100
$40K a year leading to a cool $1MM in the bank is some kind of fantasy in the America I know about.
Your cool million in the bnak earns what, 1.5% interest? Congratulations - your income is below the tax rates we are talking about.
I think we are missing the point here, and the end game will be anyone with a NET worth of 1 Million, is going to get thrown in the shark pool. That means almost everyone on the site that owns a home, and has savings.
awesome
"...this thing goes down like the Hindenburg or congress has to make spending cuts into every department, program and unfunded liability so drastic we would enter a depression and the people relying on government would burn washington d.c. to the ground."
In brief, this thing goes down.
But you put it handsomely. +200
Bullish for CS and UBS
I don't understand how in the 1950's with the top tax rate at 92% we had the best education system in the world, a thriving middle class, a vibrant manufacturing sector, and our economy was the eny of the world.
Wierd how it has just been a slow steady decline that corresponds with the lowering of the top tax rate.
I'm sure they have nothing to do with each other though...Amirite, amiright...
Some SmartAss will shortly come out and say:
"CORRELATIAON IS NOT CAUSATION"
And that will probably be a losertoon idiot.
But then, you are at the FIGHT CLUB, and you get what you pay for.
.
that IS a basic premise of statistics....correlation is NOT causation.
I am really tired of this meme. Very few people even paid the 92% tax. The brackets were also much higher back then adjusted for inflation.
Yeah, weird, the destruction of any industrial competition to the United States had nothing to do with the "vibrant manufacturing sector."
It's like the Second World War never happened in some people's minds.
Any asshole that uses the word meme is an asshole. May you lick the nutsack of an old drunken bum.
"Very few people even paid the 92% tax"
No shit Sherlock,
When a rich person realizes that they will only be able to keep a tiny sliver of their wealth beyond a certain point they:
So no, they didn't pay the tax. They did exactly what rich people should do.
Dream on, they moved it to pre-Castro Havana or "off shore" as we know it today. My grandfather went to his boss' mansion down there in 1956, he said it was amazing. Greed is not a new phenomenon.
How's that mansion now?
Yes your point that there are rich people who will do incredibly stupid things in the name of greed is not lost on me.
Your logic of linking marginal tax rate decline to education decline has the same regression coefficient test of saying the rise in sea levels corresponds with education standards. Please before you say this crap do some research. Spending per student has soared in real terms since the 60s. Check here: http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/edlite-chart.html. The fact is lower tax rates have produced enormous revenues. The problem is the revenues are being spent faster than they are accrued.
By the way, while rates were 92%, there were tons of ways to deduct around that. That is why the genuises then came up with the AMT. How's that working for the American people?
The United States had no competition. Our competitors' industrial capacity had been bombed to dust during the war. The rise of the "blue collar middle class" during the period 1946-1973 was an anomaly.
You are 100% correct. It's amazing how few people understand something so simple.
We just had a war that resulted in the UK, Germany, Italy, France, Russia, Japan, China and many others taking devastating losses to their manufacturing sectors. The only country in a position to take advantage of that was the United States due to the mainland being untouched. Hence the rise of a vibrant middle class and blue collar labor getting paid a high wage for mostly unskilled work.
Yet when those countries started getting back on their feet, we began to lose our industry.
It's a similar argument with the Keynesians. They totally leave out the Second World War. It's like it never happened!
We didn't really start losing until the advent of NAFTA, GATT, etc, that was the nail in the coffin.
The US was the only game on town - the only industrial powwer left on earth unaffected by the war. We had NO COMPETITION for over a decade. But when Europe and Japan rebuilt, they built NEW and more efficient plants. The US did not invest for the future, we coasted - obsessed with short term profits.
The US also spent billions on a permanent militarty - creating the 'military-industriial complex' that Ike warned against. At peace we continued top spend money on guns instead of butter even though the Soviet Union was never the threat we made them out to be. Our priorities caught up with us in the 1970's when the rest of the world was competitive with the US, our own spending on Vietnam and elsewhere to expand our Empire was unaffordable and formerly complacent states in the Middle East got tired of selling us their oil dirt cheap. The client states we propped up all over the world began to fall apart - blowback became real and severe. Look at what happened in Iran, Central American and Africa.
cynical:
Yep, and paid attention to Deming, invented and continued to refine "Toyota Production System," etc.
Of course, there was no Department of Energy nor Department of Education. I'll claim correlation of their existence with increase in dependence on foreign energy and decline in education outcomes.
There were huge tax shelter schemes to misdirect capital; U.S. Windpower, for instance, was selling wind turbines in late '70s to dentists and doctors for economically stupid but tax beneficial improvements in net $$$$.
- Ned
I've got an engineering degree - was always astounded at how US companies ignored quality - for DECADES - until it was too late. Deming was a prophet without honor in his own country.
The US is always focused on the short term - never any long tgerm planning for ANYTHING.
I'm sure that anomaly had nothing to do with the G.I. bill, or the strength of workers' unions.
These would be payroll taxes? Sorry big boys avoid taxes through capital gains.
Capital Gains also applies to Rental Real Estate. As if there is not a glut of Housing on the Market now. Everyone will scramble to sell their Rental Real Estate to avoid the new Capital Gains Tax.
What is a shame is that the Long Term Capital gains for Stocks and Real Estate is the same. With the exception that most people may liquidate a Stock after 1 year, many people that own Rental Real Estate own for 20 to 30 years. Yet the tax rate is the same.
They need to have a long, long, long term Capital Gains.
The other issue is that unfortunately, the Capital Gains Tax is not indexed to the lower value of the Dollar. It is a double wammy that you get taxed on the appreciation of a House or a Stock when the appreciation is only on inflation, due to Dollar devaluation.
They should index any sale of an investment based on the value of the Dollar when you purchased that property or Stock. Well, I guess I am dreaming but it does not seem right that you have to pay taxes to the Government for appreciation due to the devaluation of the Dollar.
WaterFallSparkles, your comment:
""The other issue is that unfortunately, the Capital Gains Tax is not indexed to the lower value of the Dollar. It is a double wammy that you get taxed on the appreciation of a House or a Stock when the appreciation is only on inflation, due to Dollar devaluation."
This is the little "secret" that the "money changers" do not want the masses to know about. You, fortunately, get that, but judging from everything I can find on the Internet from reading non-stop since the Internet came online, most don't. While I am sure a few people understand it, even they may not realize this is all by design. In effect, most gains that are made by buy and hold investors are just "inflation" gains which you then have to pay taxes on. For many people, you would be better to just take the losses holding cash. Yes, you will lose to inflation, but often the "real" gains are not gains at all after taxes.
You are absolutely correct. If I bought a property for say $63,000. that is now worth $225,000. That appreciation is due to the devaluation of the Dollar. Not on actual gains. I cannot replace that property in todays Dollars for what I paid, only what the current Market Value is. If I owned that Property for over 20 or 25 years and it has appreciated due to inflation (printing of money) over the years, why do I have to pay taxes on the Gain.
After all the "Gain" is only on the Devaluation of the Dollar and my purchasing power. So, in essence it is no gain at all.
IT IS UBSURD THAT I SHOULD HAVE TO PAY A GAIN OF THE VALUE OF MY PROPERTY BECAUSE OF THE DEVALUATION OF MY DOLLAR. THAT IS DOUBLE TAXATION.
Because I already paid a "Tax" on the Devaluation of my Dollars.
Amen brother Waterfallsparkles
DO NOT FORGET THAT I PAID TAXES ON THE MONEY USED TO BUY THAT PROPERTY. SO MAKE THAT TRIPLE TAXATION.
TAXATION ON THE MONEY USED TO BUY THE PROPERTY, TAXATION ON APPRECIATION DUE TO INFLATION, TAXATION DUE TO THE DEVALUE OF MY DOLLARS. LAST AND NOT LEAST TAXATION ON THE RENTAL INCOME RECEIVED.
Also, Rental Income is taxed as ordinary income and does not receive the same favorable tax treatment as Dividends on Stocks at only 15%.
I also forgot to mention that every year that I pay an Asset Tax on that Real Estate. It is called a Property Tax. So, I have been paying another tax thruout the life time of Ownership.
Maybe they should have an Asset Tax on Stocks like they do for dReal Estate.
I like your point, but there is also irrational exuberance behind the price appreciation, from bubbles and whatnot.
Most of the appreciation you've seen is from 30 years of ever-lower interest rates, not dollar devaluation (or inflation). Strip out the interest rate effect and you'll discover your "investment" underperformed inflation (which means it wasn't actually an investment).
Rental real estate folks have nothing to complain about. You get to depreciate an asset that appreciates. You get to write off the cost of improvements, taxes and insurance. And you wanna complain about paying gains tax on an asset that other people paid off for you?
Your tennants paid for all of this and got no tax breaks whatsoever, remember?
By the way, the tax policy discussed in the article won't effect you, but your remarks demonstrate the insane sense of entitlement that creates class warfare. Sadly, you're not even on the side the you think you're on.
Brilliant!
mark mchugh says:
"Rental real estate folks have nothing to complain about. You get to depreciate an asset that appreciates. You get to write off the cost of improvements, taxes and insurance. And you wanna complain about paying gains tax on an asset that other people paid off for you?"
Then Stack Trace says:
"Brilliant!"
Not brilliant at all. I presume both of you don't own any real estate, otherwise you wouldn't make such assumptions. Please look up the term, "capital gains recapture". Basically, everything you've deducted over the standard 27.5 year period will be "recaptured" after you sell. In other words, the tax write-off is temporary and you will have to pay all of it back in the end. Btw, it only applies to the building, not the land (in other words, land cannot be depreciated).
FALSE: everything you've deducted over the standard 27.5 year period will be "recaptured" after you sell
TRUE: but recapture is limited to gains on sale above the depreciated base.
You're wrong. If you've depreciated the entire building after the 27.5 period and then sell, you will be taxed on a capital gain for the full value of the building.
Property Value: $300,000
Land Value: $100,000
Building: $200,000
27.5 years later, $200,000 has been depreciated
Assuming no inflation (unlikely) you sell the property for:
$300,000
You are charged a capital gains tax on _____________ ?
Answer: $200,000.
That's what capital gains recapture is about.
And it makes no difference if you sell in 10, or 5 years. All the depreciation is recaptured, assuming the property is worth more than the initial price paid minus the deprecation. Get a clue, please.
One other thing: you get to write off improvements, but over a 27.5 period. If you make an improvement for $10,000 and you're in the 50% tax bracket, your write off/gain is $15 per month, whoopee! Regardless, as I stated before, when you sell your property and if it has appreciated, and let's say it's after the 27.5 period, your capital gains tax will apply to the value of the building, 100%. There's no free lunch for us "rich" people.
As for writing off taxes, insurance, and expenses... well, why the hell shouldn't you be able to do that? Are you going to argue that writing off your employee wages is unfair? Show me any business that can stay in business without expensing their payroll and I'll show you a bean stock.
When a slumlord looks in the mirror, he sees a entrepreneur...and therein lies much of the problem. You identify with a class that you don't actually belong to. In fact the only way you can become part of the set you aspire to is to be allowed to keep all the gains that others paid for, with never-ending government intervention in the interest rate market.
With capitalists like you we don't need welfare cases. Your complaint, boiled down to its simplest form, is that the extent to which you are allowed to exploit the system, still isn't enough to satisfy you. Did you create jobs? Invent anything? Grow the economy? Fuck no, but somehow you feel entitled to piggy-back your way to the top on the labors of others. Awesome!
Thanks for explaining depreciation recapture, while completely missing the point.
A Real Estate Owner creates a lot of Jobs and helps the Economy.
Number 1 Government Jobs for Zoning, Code Enforcement, Rental Housing Registration, Lead Paint Laws, Smoke Detector Laws and Compliance with all of the Laws Governing Landlords.
Number 2, Tenants tend to tear up a property. You are constantly buying new Carpet, Tile pay installers to install that Carpet and Tile. Painters every time a Tenant moves out. Roofers to put on new roofs and roof installers. Water Heater manufacturers and Plumbers to install them about every 5 years. Electricians. The weekly trip to Home Depot or Lowes and anyone that works there for all kinds of things. Appliances do not live forever so you have to buy new Ranges, new Dishwashers, new Washers and Dryers, plus pay to have them installed. The list goes on and on.
The third thing is compliance with Housing Authorities. Every three years you have to Register your Property for a fee of course usually $50. per unit. You have to have a Home Inspector come into your property every 3 years to inspect that property usually $175. per unit. Lead Paint compliance. At the change of a Tenant you have to have a Lead Paint Inspector come in and check for Lead Paint, usually $250. per unit. New Regulation for Smoke Detectors had to be wired. Detectors bought at Home Depot and installed by Electricians.
They also pay more than their fair share of Property Taxes as they do not get the Homestead Credit and carry most of the Tax Burden for City and State Taxes.
I WOULD SAY LANDLORDS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR A LOT OF JOBS.
p.s. I forgot all of the Lawyers for Rent Court and Collections.
Your twisted rationalizations stand as testament to your inflated sense of self-worth, but not much else.
"Number 1 Government Jobs for Zoning, Code Enforcement, Rental Housing Registration, Lead Paint Laws, Smoke Detector Laws and Compliance with all of the Laws Governing Landlords.
Number 2, Tenants tend to tear up a property."
Tell me about it! Hahaha.
?????????????? Lol. You don't know anything about me. Have you considered that some of us have worked our asses off for years, and to make you happy, producing things (in my case, software), so we could afford to purchase real property?
Currently you can best avoid real esate capital gains by throwing yourself off a building. The tax laws are quite generous on inheritance tranfers. TPTB made it so. Throw the properties into a trust and it's even better. Plus why would anyone sell property if they didn't have to? Turning real property into fiat? Don't do it. That's why the good Lord gave us stocks and bonds, so we'd have something to turn into fiat when we need some. Real estate and PMs are for keeping.
You are right about that. Only 3 ways to avoid Capital Gains on Rental Real Estate.
One way to avoid Capital Gains is to Die. Your heirs will inherit the property at the current Market Value without any Capital Gains. This unfortunately, locks you into a property for life. So, be very careful what you buy as it will be an actual life time investment.
2nd way is to do a tax free exchange. Sell one property and buy another within 45 days thru a straw man. The Government is trying to close this loophole right now.
3rd way is to move into the property for 2 years before you sell it. That way it is your Principal Residence and you as a single person can make up to $250,000., married people up to $500,000. in Gain without taxation. Tip, always buy Rental Real Estate where you would actually live yourself. Many Landlords would not dare to live in their properties.
I also agree with you. Buy Real Estate do not Sell Real Estate. So many people say do you know what I Sold that Property for and what it worth today. Yet, sometimes you need to Sell. Either for financial reasons or because the Neighborhood has deteriorated substantially.
Your calculations are meaningless without a time frame. Anyone buying a house prior to 2000 and keeping it until the present still beat inflation, even after the crash. Even if you only broke even, you still had a free place to live all those years.
Before the rest of this, let me just say I agree- capital gains tax is an abomination that should be eliminated. Some "evil trust fund babies" might benefit from that, but that does not matter.
Here's the odd "gain" in the equation that is always glossed over in the buy V. rent debate here and elsewhere.
I know that this runs contrary to the mindset of most Americans, but I am only a third-generation immigrant (from Austria or Ireland, depending on which side of the tree you look at) and as such, occasionally have a different perspective on some things.
Here's the thing- my family is not wealthy in the sense that most of you understand. No one drives an expensive car, or has a hanger with a private jet. Most work shitty jobs, and do what they can with what they have. But there is one thing that is a little different about my particular clan that my grandfather brought with him from Austria, and passed along.
We all own property- not in the sense that we take a new mortgage every three years to buy a new condo, but in the actual sense that we buy the property, usually with credit- but then we actually live in that place until the mortgage is paid off- and stay there after the mortgage is a distant memory. Those who have enough money buy another property later, and rent out the first one- but land and structures are never sold to anyone outside the family.
After only three generations in the US, we literally own half of the county I live in, and that is increasing with every generation- not decreasing. Said county, for what it's worth, is one of the few that is still producing durable goods in quantity- and my people own many of those shops and factories as well.
Why would relatively poor folks do this, you may ask... Well, that's simple enough. It's because of inflation, and because we were taught Austrian attitudes towards capital. As a personal example, I bought my home in 2004 at a 5.5% or 6% fixed 30 year mortgage (I forget which, and am too lazy to dig out the paperwork tonight.) It's a little gem- 2000 sq ft, give or take, two story 4-bedroom cape cod with one and a half baths on a one acre lot. I've seen the real-estate porn, and it's an "American Bungalow" reader's wet dream, with immaculate trim and fixtures loving maintained since they were installed in 1946- the original maple trim has never even heard of paint, let alone a thumb-tack. The few updates I've made were custom milled in my basement from similar materials to match the original design perfectly. I can grow enough food for my family on the lot (with fertilizer, of course,) and still have enough room for the kids to have a nice swingset.
I pay $710 a month for it- including property tax, homeowner's insurance, and an additional insurance policy that will clear the mortgage should something happen to me or my wife. Seven years later, that $710 a month won't rent a one-bedroom shithole stacked against other units like lego blocks three blocks away. That has always been true, even when the "smart money" won't admit it.
I rebelled against the family property ethic a little when I was younger- I always thought that some of my family should find themselves somewhere nicer to live, especially when they got a new job or promotion. But then I met this old guy at the Masonic Lodge in St. Paul, and he asked me to retile a shower for him. I did it for cost, as he was a Masonic brother, and a retiree- and spent a week or so working on a very attractive home in one of the better neighborhoods in the city. About the third or fourth day, after I complimented him on the place, he told me that his parents had bought it in the 40's for $2500. The place had to have been worth at least $300,000 at the time, and he paid nothing but property tax.
That opened my eyes real fast. While the old fella was paying a couple hundred bucks a month to live alone in a virtual castle, I was spending $1500 a month to rent a ranch house that was built in the 80's, and was already falling apart.
If you're a property owner, inflation is your friend. If you stay there, deflation doesn't mean a thing. It is only people who try to flip property that can be hurt by capital gains. Precious metals are fun, and I am one of the alcolytes- but they are nothing at all compared to real estate, and I say that with full understanding of the housing bubble collapse. You want a SHTF plan? Tell your kids to buy the entire state, and hold it through thick and thin. Local officials can't raise the property tax if you can evict them, and you can sit in the center of a virtual empire that costs pennies on the dollar to maintain and service, while your idiot cousins and siblings guard the gates for miles in every direction.
Feudal? Of course. What do you expect from people descended from Voevoids and Celts?
Anyhow, for what all that is worth. Those of you with precious metals stashed should have your ears perked up. It's true, you can't eat gold or silver- but you can eat the animals from forest land, and you can eat the vegitables from farms. You can also drink the water from land you control and carefully husband. Free drunken advice from one of the somewhat less evil occult-trained elitists. ;)
dupe.
It's called a "false capital gains". A popular term in the 70's, at least for those who understood the game. As others have pointed out, most people don't get it. Sadly, this proposed capital gains tax increase will only exacerbate the problem. Tax the rich? Wait until your stocks double in 10 years thanks to inflation and lets see what you think of a higher capital gains tax.
Trust me. Obummer will make sure there is a "Millionairs clause" on page 1238 that exempts everyone making over 1 million while everyone else see's a 10% increase. That's how the game is played........ Buffet know's this. So does all the other elitists.
Dosent that old crypt keeper still owe like 1 billion in back taxes to the IRS...I havent read anything re his bill was paid from Berkshire...WTF.
Buffett's just taking in the 20,000ft. view of debt service security ...and advocating accordingly.
I mean, come on, everyone knows what his book is at this point.
I don't think he's demonstrated that the long term interests of the USA are a priority or senior level concern for him...nor should they be given his fiduciary duties.
If Buffett wants to push national affairs policy and maintain universal clout he should resign as head of BRK first.
Even if he really is Santa Claus, his day job as corporate titan clouds the image of the folksy Uncle Sam he likes to present.
Time to take a powder Warren.
At this point, paying taxes to the IRS is paying to destroy the world.
It has been visited by the scriptures of nearly every major religion. In christianity, Christ was not opposed to taxation. He was opposed to bullshit taxation that tried to play God (arbitrarily picking winners and losers) over human beings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple
Also wasn't the Tea Party about some arbitrary punative tax?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party
Weird how the new leaders of the tea party: Bachman, Palin, and Perry spout off about God all the time, but have nothing to say about the tax code. Atleast with Barry, he does not have the level of hippocrasy ... err wait ... didn't he pick Timmay as "The only guy who can fix this problem?"
So you never heard of Supply Side Jesus?
You mean Soylindra Solar panel supply side Jesus? or Texas Rangers Brand new shiny baseball stadium 10,000 points of halogen lighting Supply Side Jesus? Cause I heard about those guys. They were the last two occupants of the Bully pulpit.
Obama knows this isn't going to pass. This is the same tactic that politicians have been using since the beginning of time. He is trying to distract from a failing economy by blaming "those people over there."
Conveniently, "those people over there" don't contain the Wall Street parasites that helped get us into this mess.
Corn: Best recent example is Truman in 1948 with the "Do Nothing Congress."
But the math is pretty simple: confiscate ALL of the income and wealth of the top 2%.
Nary a dent.
- Ned
Bee Oh Oh, Aych Oh Oh. The middle class has been disappearing for 30 years and you declare this to be class warfare. Fuck you all. I love ZH, but isn't there posts every day predicting impending doom for the stock market and now you fear a tax increase will cause a crash. The weekend Tyler is a douche!
Raising taxes destroys wealth creation.
BS. You know what destroys wealth creation? 0% interest. Unlimited credit to deadbeats.
The top 1% shouldn't be paying less taxes than the bottom 20%... which they do. In Texas, the bottom 20% pays 400% more taxes than the top 1%, which is total BS.
You are creating a arguement with me that I never commented on. I made a simple statement. I said nothing about unlimited credit, because unlimited credit has nothing to do with taxes. Go build your strawman somewhere else.
Does digging a hole change the earth's mass? "Wealth creation" is an illusion perpetuated to confuse weak minds.
Deficit spending shifts prosperity, and seeing that it is becoming increasing clear that the beneficiaries of that deficit spending have no intention of seeing the books balanced that leaves two options:
I'm cool with either. The problem is that most parasites refuse to see themselves for what they really are. Remove government support from the housing market, for example, and real estate fininancing terms regress 25 years. 20% down 15% interest, no financing at all for raw land etc.
Banckrupties like you can't imagine, followed by every last bank in the country collapsing. Followed by a new wave of citizens who actually understand the role of government and taxation in a nation's economy. Right now
NO,
YOU are a douche!
Face reality, bitch!
I've never felt even a little bit guilty about the way I use my holding company to (legally) pay far less tax than someone making less than 100K a year.
Every single dollar that I pay in tax is an absolute wasted dollar.
Let me keep that dollar and I'll invest it in myself, my company, my employees, my equipment, my future.
If I give it to you, you'll just waste it, handing out fish.
I know, man.
The world is a terrible place. Everyone is out to get you and your money.
You worked your way up from rags to riches by creating innovative products that people need. You're an awesome dude!
All those poor fuckers just have no initiative to make themselves better. It's their own fault! They are stupid; let them pay the higher taxes. More for you! And obviously you will put the money to better use. Food stamps? Medicare? Fuck that! You need a new boat to take you away from the crumbling city! Place gets worse every year; fuckin dirty poor fucks clogging up the freeways with their '92 minivans, loaded and sagging...
What are they doing anyways? Why don't they go get jobs?
LOL, nice one squeal.
its a pity being in oz as you've missed a lot of the action by this time of night - but prairie kid all i would say is all your talk of laying off 5 people and trust funds to avoid tax is an embarassment to you. there are plenty of people reading here who would take the yearly turnover of 'your' company, then offer to toss a coin for it.
and prairie thing would shit his pants.
By "invest" it, do you mean buy overpriced large vehicles to drive mostly for personal use, but deduct fully as a business expense?
This is very bullish for misery.
This is why we should not have a President: No one man appears smart enough to operate the military, understand monetary and fiscal policy, and develope the proper domestic referendums.
If we do want to pretend to have a King, I recommend taking almost all the powers away from the post.
Comet Elenin deflection by unknown force NASA images
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O-SIHNUPIw
look further..its 'debunked'..
Terence McKenna says he always seeks the Shaman when he encounters a new tribe.
Who's the shaman in the US? Lieberman?
Kind of an odd post--kind of an odd perspective, really. I agree that everyone should be paying SOME income tax. But the people you are rushing to defend here are in the lowest tax bracket with the highest incomes. Doesn't make much sense. It also doesn't make much sense that the newest of these millionaires have gotten there in the past three years--while everyone else is writhing in the throes of a Depression. Odd that on one hand this blog rails against the inflated bonus' and paychecks of the financial sector, yet when the piper comes to increase their committment to what is thus far a completely ineffective boost of bailouts coupled with perpetually low interest rates in the lost cause of fixing the economy, you cry foul.
Either you believe your own bullshit, Tyler, or you are pandering pathetically to the upper class. Class warfare is a reality, and so far we have seen the upward vacuuming of trillions of dollars into the pockets of the ultra-rich. If there is some other way of both fixing the economy and balancing the federal budget(and I am not ruling out both and YES I have my ideas---like cut military spending, scale back subsidies to the huge corporations(oil, electric, contractors, the usual suspects), and basically revise the entire tax structure) it would great to hear them.
While Obama is an easy target for being a negative copy of Bush, it doesn't help to be burning both ends of the solution candle while offering little or nothing of insight as to what can and should be done to eventually move the country out of this destructive cycle of boom and bust---yeah, I know, end the Fed. Easier said than done, short of a monumental uprising of the population. Wouldn't count on that one.
The income tax is unconstitutional.
"The right to keep and bear arms SHALL not be infringed" Get a misdemeanor conviction in almost any state in the union and one of the terms is you may not have a gun. Wanna talk more about the CONSTITUTION!!--THE LAW OF THE LAND?? Milestones
Tyler, quite frankly,
Doesn't give a Rat's Ass about what you have to say.
Capiche?
Which one? heh heh
This blog does lick kleptocratic balls sometimes.
LOL! The dumb sh*ts here have no clue about job creation or the economy. A lot of my neighbors would be affected by this but sadly not me. I saw what happened after the Muslim was "elected." These people stopped spending the next day. Many of them spent $100,000 a year on their homes, cars and yachts. They employed a LOT of people. No more. The ones that owned businesses started laying people off the next day after the election/coup. Many kept laying people off.
The economy will not improve until he is gone. Many of these rich f**kers - I don't like. Most will not give you the time of day. Go ahead and tax them to death - the job they may cut may be yours. I cannot blame them either. They knew the muslim was a collectivist and they went into protect mode. Rich people, who remain rich, know how to preserve their wealth. Some are scum, some are hard workers who create a lot of jobs too.
Some of you people are so f***ing dumb. The "savings" is cutting the budget everywhere - especially endless freebies for illegals. Cut everyhting 15 to 20% now. Keep cutting until the budget is balanced.
I saw what happened after the Muslim was "elected." These people stopped spending the next day...
I have observed this as well. They stopped spending, deferred earnings, sought tax shelters, etc., just out of spite. anything they could do to undermine "the one". What is funny is that O tried to be the maggot's friend but he wasn't in the club and never will be. Sure, they'll give him a campaign contribution in case he wins but they have no intention of seeing the economy improve under his regime. Lesson to O: You can't play nice wth vermin, you either kill them or let them be.
Correction: You either kill them or they'll eat you alive in front of your children after raping the wife, vivisecting the dog... these are the kind of folks who happily eat their children before going to work in the morning.
My first comment on one of your posts--you blew this one big time! Milestones
Attacking Tyler gives you street cred in the fight club. It works.
..and yet you don't elaborate? C'mon, man, feedback is golden!
Buffet proposes taxes for the rich because he will not be taxed.
He still lives in a house he bought many years ago. He also only gets 1% of Birkshires Market Value as his salary. So, he is effectively under the $250,000. Tax threshold. Yet, he gets to use all of the benefits of the assets of Birkshire at his whim. Like Net Jets for an example. He can use the planes owned by Net Jets anytime he wishes. Birkshire Owns the Company. He does not have to pay to lease them out of his income. The cost comes directly out of Net Jets profits which the Shareholders bear the cost in profits.
He is telling everyone else to pay higher taxes when he is insulated.
See my rant below. On the other end of the spectrum you got people running cash businesses where the pedicures are deducted cause "hey I have to be able to walk good to do my job. I also need to walk through the store to use my STAMP card, cause, you know, I am poor and stuff"
Tax income, tax consumption, tax capitol gains. at flat or even progressive rates. no deductions. Then when uncle warren buys a swimming pool full of jello to go over berkshires 10k with becky quick and liz clayman, he -- nor berkshire -- can write the slippery stuff off as "lubricant, business use equipment" Same for the government. Do you really think a typical .gov master of political science would accept a GS-13 salary if there was not a unlimited expense account from uncle sugar?
Then you would see proper capital formation.
Tax property.
Nothing else--not income/revenue/capital gains.
I could go for that. But would not the aquisition of property (consumption tax) have the same effect?
Henry George's "progress and Poverty" Milestones
trying for humor, not snarc, but to revist, how would henry george tax the following:
I know things are not that different between now and 1870s when he wrote that thesis, but I do think they are different enough. The corporate jet is only what? 30,000 sq ft? of property but the amount of land resources needed to create it is in the sq miles, including food for the workers, metals, chip fabrication facilities, the fuel it consumes, etc.
I would be all for taxing the purchase price of the "property" (the aircraft, the caviar), but not in favor of making some rancher in texas pay $1000 acre yearly for the drought stricken land that eeked out 1 animal that fed the worker who built the plane.
honest ( if uneducated) question.