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Obama Watergate Update: Carney Denies Involvement In Solyndra Loan Review - Live Solyndra Webcast

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Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:14 | 1668613 Jeff Lebowski
Jeff Lebowski's picture

Bullish for Chinese solars!

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:20 | 1668640 SGS
SGS's picture

BULLISH FOR SILVER.  The average panel eats about .75 Troy oz of silver.

Huh?

www.silvergoldsilver.blogspot.com

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:23 | 1668652 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Ask Leo.  BTW, who benefits if Solar fails, why the Fossil Fuel Cabal, that's who.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:27 | 1668678 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Solar is a crewel joke in terms of energy density. It's not even a contest. Even before Silver prices put Solar Panels into the cost effective trash can it was found they could never possibly return any cost savings.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:38 | 1668734 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

Photovoltaics are a joke.  Most of the energy that reachs the ground as sunlight is in the visible and IR spectrum.  PV picks mostly the UV part which is a low percentage.  They are working on multi-junction type cells which would help get some of the other spectrum but (of course) at the cost of more complex panel which of course makes it more expensive, so it is a wash basically. 

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:58 | 1668804 kito
kito's picture

solar is not a joke. it allows many to get off grid, and the technology is evolving. im quite certain that efficiency will improve over time.

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:05 | 1668825 Mercury
Mercury's picture

It's a joke in the sense that you have to get someone else to pay for it to make it economically viable. 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:11 | 1668847 kito
kito's picture

take away all of the subsidies, tax breaks, incentives, etc. on every other industry-nuclear, coal, oil, etc, and let me know how the cost difference works out.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:17 | 1668881 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

I do agree to eliminate all subsidies for any economic activity.  Same goes for disincentives (i.e. surtaxes).  All they do is distort the real relative price of things. 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:10 | 1669143 HCSKnight
HCSKnight's picture

Kito,

You are either a fool or a liar. Fundamentally it's a question of simple energy physics. .

In short, the facts of joules of energy avaiable at the source & joules of energy at the user end.

On both counts, solar energy factually fails to economically compete with other forms of stored energy.

There is simply not enough joules of IR solar energy per square foot of earth to allow solar power to replace or act as a secondary energy source, unless one lives in a desert and doesn't want a/c. But I think the late Sam Kinison summed up living in the desert.

And don't be fooled by the "but if" ideas of research/education PhDs. They as a group have already proved beyond a reasonable doubt they are of lower moral and ethical caliber than those employed by commercial interests.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 14:39 | 1669659 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

"On both counts, solar energy factually fails to economically compete with other forms of stored energy."

Now, but I'm sure in the future the economics will flip when oil is running out.  Then it will start to gain traction.  The main hurdle is not the collectors themselves but intermediary energy storage which when the economics make sense will be developed.

I would say that solar would be better served if used thermally in thermochemical industrial processes.  Much effort is for end-use electrical production.  More energy is consumed in the chemical and transportation sectors in the form of thermochemical reactions.  That is where storage comes in.  Storage in chemicals (such as gasoline) would be much preferred method as the densities achieved are higher and thus more useful for end-users.    

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:14 | 1668864 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

I, for one, didn't say "solar" was a joke.  Just that PV is a joke.  There are other solar energy methods, but much investment is getting piled into PV for whatever reason.  No doubt efficiency will improve, but economic effectiveness is not the same as efficiency.  Systems are designed for not physical energy efficiency but for cost efficiency which are entirely different. 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:39 | 1669306 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Key concept here is, "allows many to get off the grid". You can cry about the cost of solar vs. fossil fuels (and who knows what the true costs are given the gigantic array of subsidies across the energy industry), but Solar PV allows one to make one's home (and community) ENERGY INDEPENDENT. The story here is not just about cost.

I would tend to think that concept would go over well in the Zero Hedge community.

Solar and wind energy are terrifying to the power elite because they represent a certain amount of energy independence. It was Kissinger who said, "if you want to control a nation, control its energy supply". The only reason that solar and wind energy were even allowed to be subsidized in the 2000s was because they thought they could control it (and more importantly, profit off of it) through carbon taxes via the AGW bogeyman. Now that the lid has been  blown off of the AGW lie, they have lost the control mechanism, and solar and wind are getting thrown under the bus as they are no longer of any use.

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:09 | 1668841 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

If US really wanted to they can have alternative energy breakthroughs within 15 years. But why spend money on R&D when you can just invade Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, Somalia, etc. for more cheap oil?

Because US does not want to fund any energy projects that is democratic throughout the world. They want absolute control over world's energy....oil to support the fiat dollar.

 

Let's not get bogged down with small fry here.It is probably Repub Oil elites attacking any energy independence.

Oil industry gets double digit billion subsidies so does corn energy not to mention middle eastern wars are all about oil.

 

http://www.grist.org/i/assets/energy-subsidies.jpg

http://www.7gen.com/files/photovoltaic-cost.jpg

 

Just because US is screwed up in priorities doesn't mean other countries are just sitting back. Especially Asian countries with little internal source of oil will spend the money to push for alternative energy. Maybe that's when US will lose reserve currency power from petrodollar.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:30 | 1668702 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

I don't believe it is corruption as much as sign of desperate flailing about to find the next breakthrough to provide impetus for a floundering economy -- the fundamental basis of the global USD reserve currency system is that the US will keep innovating and stay one step ahead of the ROW. Unfortunately, it is not happening...

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:08 | 1668837 Nascent_Variable
Nascent_Variable's picture

When the government tries to force innovation by manipulating the market, the entire system is corrupted.

Besides, as it stands today, even if America could produce another Tesla, he'd be wasting his time chasing government grants for garbage research or doing bogus studies for corporate giants to disprove gravity.

The country is fat, lazy, and morally bankrupt.  A competitve edge is required to stay ahead, and America lost it a long time ago.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:19 | 1668886 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Government will always have money to distribute, but Americans will have to tell congress the priority of spending.

 

I'd rather see government try to force innovation (what was NASA other than aerospace r&D subsidy?) than spend money corp farm subsidies, illegal aliens, Halliburton, oil industry tax breaks, bankster bailouts, etc.

 

Remember, status quo hates innovation because they are a threat to their oligarchy.

 

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:41 | 1668988 Nascent_Variable
Nascent_Variable's picture

I agree that, if done correctly, R&D grants can be a good thing, but Obama's push for green jobs goes way beyond that.  He's trying to "stimulate" innovation, and it's never going to work.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:25 | 1668928 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

And they just "helped" innovation by just passing the AIA (America Invents Act).  As with any of the bills they pass, expect the exact opposite effect of the stated purpose.  The AIA is a step to "harmonize" the US patent system with the rest of the world.  And we want to be like the ROW why exactly?...

I was reading about how the act would shift the risk equation investment in innovation (in the wrong way) so that Venture Cap will not be able to invest as effectively as it once did in startups.  The figures now are the US has 7X the VC investment that EU countries have.  And we want to make our patent system more like their's? 

yet another nail in the coffin of Yankee Ingenuity.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:10 | 1669146 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

To add, the proponents of AIA say that it will create jobs, but the evidence they provide take some leaps in logical conclusions.  In other words, no empirical evidence exists which can support the argument.  Basically, we have to wait 10 years to find out if it screwed us up or not.  Just like the health-care bill. 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:56 | 1668797 Mae Kadoodie
Mae Kadoodie's picture

I remember that movie...Solyndra Green with Chuck Heston.  Wasn't that the one where he says, "get your paws off me you dirty ape!"?

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:33 | 1668960 trav7777
trav7777's picture

I think he said nigger

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:21 | 1668895 alangreedspank
alangreedspank's picture

Big Oil is already well positionned in the "renewables". Mouths right under the subsidy spiggots waiting eagerly.

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:35 | 1668724 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

 

 

Hey!  What happened to your Crash JP Morgue, buy Silver screen name?  

So, if that rumor started last November, does this mean it took you almost a year to figure out that it was just bullshit?  Or were you the guy that started the rumor? Without a doubt, that rumor ranks as the single biggest pile of bullshit in the metals market thus far.  I'm not sure why anyone would follow your blog.

 

 

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:48 | 1668754 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

It wasn't started last November, it was started in January of 2010...and have you seen JPM's stock lately?  Have you seen JPM vs. silver?  Are you really this dumb, or do you just play one on TV?

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:52 | 1668776 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

 

 

Listen up, foolio.  It was started a few weeks after Sprott started PSLV.  The infamous cartoon bears went viral in the first week of December. 

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:00 | 1668813 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

You are as good at researching ideas as you are understanding them.  The Buy Silver movement was started here, on ZeroHedge, in January of 2010.  It morphed through the months until we all realized its potential to take down the banking system.  This idea was finalized in the latest during the Summer of 2010.  It was not until several months later that Keiser picked it up, and if you have listened to Keiser, you would have heard him give credit to ZeroHedge for the concept, albeit only once.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:00 | 1668814 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I like how you ignored his pertinent question.

Have. You. Seen. The. Price. Of. JPM. Stock. Lately?

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:35 | 1668967 trav7777
trav7777's picture

you are a tour de force of logical fallacies

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:40 | 1668986 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You are a complete and total failure in every arena.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:29 | 1669273 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

but haven't all the banks been clobbered the last 6 months? 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:49 | 1669380 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

 

 

NO!  BLASPHEMY!  IGNORE ALL THE OTHER BANKS!  

In the doomer wing of the internet psyche ward, the only bank that matters is JPM, and the only positions they hold are silver shorts.

Nothing else matters.   

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 14:10 | 1669509 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

You actually have a point:  Major Bank Houses do short silver without locating the underlying asset.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 14:42 | 1669669 tickhound
tickhound's picture

but haven't all the banks been clobbered the last 6 months

Try the last 10 years... Assuming the bank is still around.

The sunshine crowd views this 'statistic' with strategic optimism.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 15:54 | 1670056 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

Not that I am an optimist by any stretch of the imagination.  I was talking relative timeframe.  I know the overall trajectory for the system is "not good". 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:06 | 1668829 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

I knew about silver shorts long, long, before the bears. It has been debated on this site and at least four others I follow.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:24 | 1668913 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

 

 

Of course.  Many people knew about JPM's silver shorts, their supposed manipulation in the metal's market, and there were many lawsuits threatened long before the cartoon video.  But the notion that a doomer goon could go to his local coin shop, buy some physical silver and that it would contribute to the imminent collapse of JPM is a vastly different scenario. 

The Crash JPM, Buy Silver brigade began in a small window of time near the beginning of Sprott's PSLV.    

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:41 | 1668992 tmosley
tmosley's picture

So now you are admitting that JPM is short silver?

fucking lol

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:52 | 1669045 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

But does he know that shorts need to be located.  I doubt he knows what that means.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:50 | 1669022 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

This is just one of hundreds of posts, and combined together, the concept became well thought out and thorough.  The Buy Silver movement started here, and ended up in Max Keiser's back pocket.

Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:37 | Mr Lennon Hendrix

No bell; it's a TKO!

My boss says complacency kills.

Bulls go Moooooo!!!!!!

Buy Silver.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:56 | 1669198 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

 

 

That's one of the most ridiculous posts ever recorded on the internet. I can't even believe that you perused through all your utterly banal posts, and decided on THAT one.....Bulls go mooooooooo.........  ???????????  

It's just the dumbest post ever. Seriously.  just DUMB!

If you think "Bulls go Mooooooooo... Buy silver" is the same as "Crash JP Morgue, Buy silver" than you are an even bigger idiot than mosley, and he currently holds to world's title.   

 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 14:09 | 1669498 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

That was my first post on ZeroHedge.  I had been reading ZeroHedge since Tyler's work on tungsten gold reserves got attention on Max Keiser's site and I started posting on ZeroHedge to promote the Buy Silver movement.

It is not hard to find a post of mine with Buy Silver on it, and in fact, in the beginning of being here, it is probably hard to find one without it.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:30 | 1668946 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

"shorts long long.."

Is it...?

A)  A Chinese tailor shop

B)  A hedge fund

C)  Name for a panda bear

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:36 | 1668975 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Sometimes details get in the way of a good argument...

12/31/2009 - 9/14/2011

JPM   - 22.76%

S&P 500  + 4.62%

Dow  + 6.01%

SLV   + 129.87%

PSLV  + 88.75%

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:10 | 1668779 fuu
fuu's picture

 

 

Hey what happened to your Redneck Repugnicant screen name?

 

Silver:JPM 1.2445

1 year ago 0.4858

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:33 | 1668718 snowball777
snowball777's picture

I think you may just be "chinese-eyed", ~~, Lebowski.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:17 | 1668625 Derpin USA
Derpin USA's picture

This is a sign that the kleptocracy is taking their last bite before boarding the lifeboats while pushing the women and children overboard.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:28 | 1668692 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

First a $550M fraud, and now another $1.2B hail-mary. Looks like a double-down bet to me.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 11:40 | 1668741 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

yes, it seems our president has a gambling addiction.  He needs help. 

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:12 | 1668855 bugfixx
bugfixx's picture

In confidence game parlance, this Mojave Solar loan deal is called "the reload."  The hapless American taxpayers are the marks, of course.

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