Papademos Speaks - Point And Counterpoint

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The fearless ECB-plant leading the Greek people on an unelected basis has spoken. Here are the key points and counterpoints:

1. PAPADEMOS SAYS DEPOSITS NOW CAN RETURN TO GREECE

-> They can... but they won't because as the Greek gold is confiscated, so will the Greek private deposits. In the meantime:

 

2. PAPADEMOS SAYS UP TO GREEKS TO DETERMINE THE COURSE OF COUNTRY

-> Yes indeed.

That. And all those successful referendums...

 

3. PAPADEMOS SAYS GREEKS MUST NOT WASTE THIS GREAT OPPORTUNITY

-> Great opportunity indeed: Total Greek debt pre-restructuring: $1.20 Trillion; Total Greek debt post-restructuring: $1.233 Trillion.

Congratulations Greece - you now have more debt than ever in history following this historic "restructuring", but at least your new foreign overloards have a first lien on everything and then some as the Troika's DIP alone is well 130% of GDP. Including your gold.

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Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:48 | 2240462 Ahmeexnal
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RISE UP!

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:57 | 2240508 OneEyedJack
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 The best thing the Greeks could do to stop what is happening to them, is to just not participate.

Stay home, play cards, watch TV.  The Govt knows full well how to respond to a riot, but if no one participates in the economy??

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:03 | 2240543 GeneMarchbanks
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That, my friend, has a name it's called apathy and is now taking over in the good ol' US of A.

Create black markets and bypass the rent seeking bankster. No violence, no fuss. Just exclude a certain type of mentality from the community.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:07 | 2240565 Ahmeexnal
Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:07 | 2240567 LowProfile
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The best thing the Greeks could do to stop what is happening to them, is to just not participate.

And for the army to take control of the gold.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:15 | 2240598 GeneMarchbanks
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I wasn't clear enough apparently. 'Not participate' doesn't put goods and services in front of people. I'm asking for true market capitalism within communities at perhaps the most economically challenging and emotionally taxing time of peoples lives. An ideal worth participating in as long as you are honest and stand behind your word and work.

Guess I'm an idealist.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:50 | 2240775 Oracle of Kypseli
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They are destroying North African countries by revolutions and European countries by financial terrorism.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 17:40 | 2241473 agent default
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They are destroying North African countries by revolutions, and have managed to destroy European countries by raising an apathetic, numerically and politically illiterate population, incapable of critical thought, living on entitlements and benefits, without a real education.  The European destruction project has been  going on for a few decades now.  I don't know how long they were planing the North Africa thing.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:08 | 2240569 LawsofPhysics
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There you go.  The game can continue only so long as there are players.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:09 | 2240574 iDealMeat
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Exactly..  Cut your consumption / consent in half.. 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:44 | 2240734 Doña K
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The right side mid-section of the newspaper has an interesting comment:

The MP's of the governing party are doing post-voting theatrics in order to avoid being lynched as the revolt is brewing.

The MP's of the opposition party are walking a tight rope between their concience and the party line.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 16:49 | 2241218 Zero Govt
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Papademos Speaks

Papa(un)demo(cratic)s Speaks

there Fixed ........it was!

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:08 | 2240558 BigJim
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Because they'll send their storm-troopers round to throw you out of your house when you fail to pay 'your' taxes.

People say fiat currencies are unbacked, but that's not true - they're backed by their respective governements' ability to extract value from their citizens. Fail to cough up enough dollars/euros/yen at the end of every year and it's into the cage! you go.

(edit) so - non-participation can only work if enough citizens say enough! and the state can no longer impose its wealth extraction schemes. We may be approaching that point in Greece, but we're a long way away from it in the US and most of the West.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:09 | 2240573 LowProfile
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Because they'll send their storm-troopers round to throw you out of your house when you fail to pay 'your' taxes.

That works.  ...For awhile.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:10 | 2240579 LawsofPhysics
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Works until the people that are "stormtroopers" are called up to throw themselves in the cage.  Don't forget, America has a volunteer military. 

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 17:49 | 2241501 Zero Govt
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be assured the Parasite Club has siphoned off the most deranged and aggressive US soldiers for their dirty (civil) work, heads pumped full of propaganda and probably drugged up too

the only way of stopping these last couple of years acceleration into totalitarism is a simple one:

Stop Paying Your Taxes (stop feeding the anarchists)

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 03:36 | 2242737 StychoKiller
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Anarchy != Chaos;  Check yer premises.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:50 | 2240470 surf0766
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Is there anyone from Greece on this board who can comment on what is going on within the country? First hand account would be nice. What the average person's life has become...

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:55 | 2240496 resurger
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They are celebrating their slavery Alex Hope style ..

 

Congratulations Greece

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:15 | 2240585 Arius
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As far as regular folks are concerned ... small factories are closing, people losing their jobs ... the ones who still have one are forced to accept lower and lower salaries, and cuts every few months, pensions are being cut almost everywhere ... everything seems to be cheaper ... there is no money basically ....

on the macro things discussed on ZH, regular folks do not understand ... the information they get is from MSM ... Michelle Cabrera of CNBC made a live comment yesterday which summarizes everything saying people have no idea on the importance of yesterday's deadline ...

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 23:43 | 2242394 connda
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The majority of Greeks drink the same Kool-Aide as the majority of Americans.  The Greeks are just first on the Timeline. 

Near the end of the timeline we'll just reach a point that the only players left are the Banks and the Governments engaged in an orgy of mutual financial masturbation with the public relegated to the role of the occasionally "fluff".

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:31 | 2240647 miltiadis
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European Country when it comes to prices and services... and African Country when it comes to salaries . We still have internet but i guess African countries have internet too. Although Greece has the has the largest merchant fleet in the world but the state doesn't give a damn to promote it or to promote anything here... maybe there are busy paying useless loans and interests

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 18:07 | 2241557 Danjo
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I live in Athens, in a relatively well-off area. Like everywhere else, though, in Greece there is no average person, and like everywhere else, one of the defining features of this slump is that it doesn't have much of a public face (the melodramatic and puerile riots in the center of Athens from time to time do not represent the public face of the economic crisis, but the public face of idiotic, borderline nihilistic, middle class youth - similar to last year's rioting in parts of England). I think it's like the States: people are suffering in silence. You understand the situation when you lose your job, or your kid can't get a job.

The pay and pension cuts have been large, but much of the large middle class has been buffered against these cuts so far, either because they managed to put quite a bit away during the gravy years and/or have a house, or still have jobs that  can get them through the month by sacrificing some thrills - private lessons for their kids, private school, holidays, extra items at the supermarket.

Another ameliorating factor in the level of hardship expressing itself is the extent to which people are not making payments on commercial, mortgage, and credit card debt. A huge stabilizing factor would seem to be the government ban on banks auctioning off first homes if the debt is under 200,000 euros. This would appear to be the reason why the housng market has not corrected seriously, especially in better-off neighborhoods, despite the fact that mortgage lending has dried up. 

I have a friend who lost his job as a journalist at a newspaper where he was making 2,000 euros a month net. His wife works at Ikea and takes home 1,000 a month and they have two children. He lost his job 4 years ago when the paper closed and got 20,000 euros severance pay after working there for 3 years. When he lost his job, he was in the process of finishing building a house that he was in hock to the bank for to the tune of 200,000 euros. Last year he tried his hand at driving a cab, but the rent was high and he'd have to work it for 12 hours a day to make 20 euros clear, so he dropped it after a couple of weeks. He then went to Germany to stay with a friend and look for work ther, to no avail. Now he's back and still unemployed. His family is living off the 1,000 euros from Ikea. They key to their survival is the fact that they've stopped paying their loans. They've tried to sell the house, but with banks not lending there are just no buyers, especially at the unrealistic prices people are asking.          

What I'm saying is that the state has been the decisive factor in the effort to prevent the new economic reality from expressing itself. And I think this is something that has happened throughout the West. The Greek government has just passed a law, for example, extending public sector employees' mortgage loans to compensate for their large pay cuts. The fact that Greek banks can still get funding from EU sources and must do the state's bidding means the government can release people with high levels of debt from their immediate obligations.  

It's clear that living standards are being ground down over a long period of time, and this is just the beginning. Debt writedowns don't do much apart from hurt creditors, as debt writedowns do not create or free up capital for productive investment, so the stagnation continues. Greek and EU leaders understand this, of course. For them, the debt crisis is not so much an issue of accounting but of managing and lowering people's expectations, which they've done an excellent job of so far.

What is happening in Greece does not match what is depicted in the Western media. There is no revolution brewing, but is slipping into poverty for wide sections of the population. Greece is not a country on the verge of upheaval and chaos. Polls show widespread opposition to the EU/IMF/Greek government austerity program, but they also show very high levels of support for staying in the euro. In other words, people want it to be 2005 again.

One of the most striking effects of the debt crisis has been collapse of Pasok, which was the natural party of government for three decades, buoyed by its ability to funnel funds and benefits to important groups: civil servants, farmers, pharmacists, lawyers, civil engineers. Without its credit card from the Bundesbank, Pasok  can no longer keep its constituents in the manner to which they have become accustomed. Which is why its voter support is down to a remarkable 8%.        

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 19:21 | 2241742 flyweight
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I can comment on unemployment for people from 18-24 years of age, 51% officially as I heard today. But in reality I think it might be worse because I guess less than one in two people I know under 30 have a serious job.

You will be surprised how many people are studying or doing nothing, depending on their parents until that age (30).

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:51 | 2240474 Dr. Engali
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What a bunch of dipshits. They are giving all their gold to the bankers in exchange for more debt and the feel good about it. I certainly hope we aren't that pathetic when it's our turn.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:53 | 2240480 surf0766
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How many more debt ceiling increases before it is our turn?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:57 | 2240831 Vince Clortho
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Until the Fed warns everyone that the debt ceiling is too high.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:52 | 2240479 DavidC
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Madness, pure madness.

DavidC

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:54 | 2240493 Temporalist
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Your Keynesian overlords have your 4x4 cell chilled and waiting for you.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:52 | 2240481 sablya
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Can anyone explain where the money went?  If the PS took a huge hit on the bonds and Greece was freed from that debt burden, how did they end up with a greater debt load?  It doesn't make sense.  I read the other article but don't see any explanation of it.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:56 | 2240500 GenX Investor
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It doesn't need to make sense, "restructure" is only a word and only has meaning that you intend it to have. That is why you need to follow the math, which has implicit meaning and can only mean one thing. Don't be confused by the elliptical narrative orbiting the math. The math is the math, the words are whatever you think they mean.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:09 | 2240572 carbonmutant
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Strangely the market doesn't seem to be Math dependent...

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:25 | 2240645 sablya
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I'm not math-challenged, but no one has, so far, presented the math.  I understand that the bond exchange is a reduction in debt.  Where does the increase in debt come from?  The other article doesn't give any details, just states the numbers without any accounting.  I just want to understand, that's all.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:53 | 2240482 NotApplicable
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I can't read the text in the photo, but it looks like they're wishing Merkel good luck.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:18 | 2240616 miltiadis
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Actually there isn't any mention but only a photo that says a lot :P

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:53 | 2240485 GenX Investor
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You can't tear it down, unless you build it up.  Power to the plebes!

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:57 | 2240505 Temporalist
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See: The Acropolis

On a long enough timeline all things are torn down; on a shorter timeline by kleptocrats.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:53 | 2240486 Rusty.Shackleford
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The Greeks will continue to take it up the ass.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:53 | 2240488 Marge N. Callz
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A great victory for the puppet regime that was put in place by the EU/ECB in order to sell out the citizens of Greece and make them slaves to the German republic.  How many of these "leaders" will be in power after the elections?  Regardless all this does is lift some debt of their shoulders, only to pile more on, as none of the bailout money will actually stay in Greece.  A pure tragedy.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:16 | 2240605 BigJim
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Kinda.

What this really does is transfer more Greek debt from the 'private' sector to the public sector, the public (in this case) being every other Euro currency holder/user. And as our beloved Fed has been extending free USD to bailout the ECB and European banks, the debt transfer is also to everyone who uses/holds USD in the form of inflation - which, given that the USD is world reserve currency, means all of us.

Of course, as banks are really an arm of the state given cartel privileges to create legal tender out of thin air, describing them as 'private' is a bit problematic.

What an amazing scam. Where can I sign up?

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:20 | 2240627 SillySalesmanQu...
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Can you say"puppet squid".

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:54 | 2240490 GeneMarchbanks
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'2. PAPADEMOS SAYS UP TO GREEKS TO DETERMINE THE COURSE OF COUNTRY'

Classic. Feel free to choose now that everything has been pre-determined.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:56 | 2240499 resurger
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this must be the joke of the day

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 16:03 | 2240890 Vince Clortho
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What rock did this piece of work crawl out from under?

What Little wealth Greece had has been confiscated.  You are now all Debt Serfs to the CBs.

Now make merry and be joyous!

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:55 | 2240495 Peter K
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A rack and two squares daily! Just like in boot camp:)

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:56 | 2240498 Josh Randall
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.33 the Masonic number added to your debt -- nice subtle reminder of who runs things

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:56 | 2240503 Everybodys All ...
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so it would seem the only reason for the debt restructuring of Greece would be to get better pillaging terms.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 14:57 | 2240513 Dr. Engali
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Are they too fucking stupid too understand that if the bankers want their gold, there just might be some value there? Man I just want to punch a Greek in the face. I'll probably get the shit junked out of me but I'm pissed.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:00 | 2240527 fuu
fuu's picture

Isn't the country run by banksters now? Banksters helping banksters go for the gold. Bonus time!

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 15:18 | 2240612 BigJim
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You think the sheep here are any wiser?

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