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Time for the Greek people to reclaim their democracy. A shining light for all the OWS movements around the world...
Democracy? How about their freedom and soverignty instead?
Democracy is nothing but 2 wolfs and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. True freedom is not delegated by majority rule.
after the wolves have schooled the sheep on the wonders of democracy...
Like hanging chads.
"Netherlands Will Try to Get Greek Referendum Canceled"
SH*T ABOUT TO HIT THE FAN.
I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.
Does this mean the viking ships are preparing to sail. The heads of the greek military have all been removed. Should be a cake walk.
Complements to Mercy at SA
Should be a cake walk. Hmmmmmm. I don't know about that. I understand those Ouzo Molotov Cocktails burn like a MOFO.
No forget about this one. Big mouth PM trying to sooth the electrorate. In fact, there is a complete media black out in Holland on the causes of the financial crisis as msm = big money = msm.
i thought Greece "invented democracy" and therefore "sees this one coming." Hence the "plebicite" or whatever it is? How can one say no to "democracy in Greece" i ask you? HOW!!!!????
then what or whom is it delegated by?
By induviduals asserting their rights and soverignty by whatever that may entail.
LoL. Jan ?! When do they get the bailout$. This whole thing is getting STUPID.
Jan is like a decade to traders
In a pure democracy, a vote can put to death the likes of Socrates for speaking his mind. The US Founders recognized the evil that is pure democracy and so do our current crop of rulers. Unlike our founders tho, our current crop of rulers would love nothing more than to have peoples' rights voted out of existence by mob rule.
Do you think we could have a pure democracy day every once in awhile to clear out the clutter. It would be just as good as those US repatriate money day where you can bring in all your offshore profits tax free.
Yeah, that worked out really well.
And besides of this goes to circumvent the point: What in this case the greek would vote on, would not be individual matters, but collective matters.... and for "some reason", it appears reasonable that the collective should have the most weight in deciding about....the collective.
Vote by majority may not be justified when it comes to individual matters.... but it sure as hell beats deciding group matters by a minority, selected by another minority, which in turn is elected by the collective, from a pool of options selected by a minority.
But yeah, you go and have fun in your quasi-dictatorship representative deMockCrazy, with no practical overrides to stop completely undemocratic decisions..... while you do that, and whine about that you have no way at all to influence politics except of via revolts...... i go prefer something more..... effective.
It actually was working well for the PRODUCTIVE CLASS.
Who are you to decide INDIVIDUAL matters based on how "productive" someone is? The only thing you can demand from someone else, is that someone else's lifestyle is not lived to your own disadvantage.
How anyone - including some (by far not all) people around here, can on the one hand claim, that they advocate selfownership... yet on the other hand make totalitarian claims on how others are supposed to live their life, besides of not harming others.... is beyond me.
(Disclaimer: I'm not really replying to you. Couldn't care less about your opinions (anyone wondering why? Check his track, if you don't know him already). However, your post offered a nice hook for mentioning something that bothered me since quite a while :-)
Yes. Well put.
My pet peeve is when the same people who hate bankers want the 'irresponsible' to pay their debts back to the banksters.
I'd add: To banksters who can create money out of thin air.
What i mean with this, is that there is something seriously fishy about all the global debt..... it was offered by people who (directly or indirectly) didn't actually have do "give" anything they own away..... actually, if we'd go into full detail, they just taxed EVERYONE ELSE, and then lended that.
This creates a quite fucked up situation: Everyone against everyone's consent did lend something... and this then plus interest is to be paid back to a.... tiny minority?
All the debt owed to bankers requires much more thought than plain "X owes Y, Z money". This kind of intuitive thinking stops matching reality, when central banking comes into play.
"it was offered by people who (directly or indirectly) didn't actually have do "give" anything they own away"
This is the crux of it.
They don't have it to lend or give. Its "created". Theres no there...there. Its the most unbelieveable con there ever was.
What is "pretended" to be lent...does not exist.
Problem is: "Something" created out of this insanity, in the end does exist. It is measured as inflation - added exchange value (yeah, we could now go into the issues of fiat, by mentioning, that all that was added to the economy, was promises and belief/trust)....
...still.... how do you unwind that in a fair way?
I mean, sure, i guess we both agree that the way how this got into circulation was fraud.... but that still leaves the big question open, how to clean up the mess in a fair way?
Or hedonics...lol...I guess thats the rub, how to equitably wind it down.
I'm kinda in the jubilee camp. The debts go into the ether from which they came.
You sheep think its easy to create a money system based completely on faith in power? To control herds of hundreds of millions, billions of greedy animals, and coerce them to behave? Try it some time ...
Yeah, when someday you grow up, you may be like big uncle benocide..... most probably though, you'll just stay what you are now. You know, all that career hype is vastly overhyped.
You know, that scene from fightclub about everyone becoming holywood stars? Sorry to break it to you, but you'll just be a sucker like everyone else - except of with a corrupted conscience looking for distraction from yourself.
Sorry, I don't know what you are talking about. A Hollywood movie that you have become emotionally attached to? A decent distraction for you I hope? I sense the typical bitter sheep who doesn't like how the game ends. Underwater house? Lots of credit card debt? LOL!!!
No underwarter house, zero debt at banks (also no account at TBTF banks, and also no significant deposits at my bank). Also no gov loans (i.e. student loans and stuff). A credit card? What's that? Actually, if i'm thinking about it, i never ever went into debt in my life so far - not even towards friends or relatives.
Better luck next time - you're talking to a total "drop-out".
Sorry, but I'm going to have to pull historical accuracy here.
Things you never knew about Socrates' trial, but should know:
#1 He was tried for "corrupting youth" - but it wasn't his teachings, or Plato who got him in trouble. It was a 15 year old satire (play) about him that lead to his arrest. Yes, he was arrested on the strength of a play about his life - that wasn't even current, but had gone under revival.
#2 Socrates, and his supporters (of whom there were many rich & influential members of Athenian democracy) knew that the charges were total bullshit, and based on a play. When arrested, Socrates denounced this.
#3 Whilst in prison, his supporters enacted two plans: one to bribe the judiciary to let Socrates go, another to do a 'prison break' and get him out. Socrates veto'd both of these, stating that if he was being tried for a false crime, he would stick to Athenian Law. Socrates was at no point unable to avoid all charges - he could have run from Athens at any point
#4 During his trial, Socrates tore apart the accusation case and could have walked free: instead, he demanded that TPTB either declare him innocent of charges, and admit that his trial was a political one, or condemn him to death absolute [the crime he was charged with came with a number of other options, including exile]. TPTB, forced into an embarrassing corner, chose death.
#5 Socrates understood this, and stated that since his life was the cause of the crime, he would enact the sentence. He took hemlock under the protests of connected followers still demanding to jail break him.
Socrates demanded his own death, and demanded he enact it, to fully expose the venality and corruption of his city state.
Don't get that anymore, do you? Cockroaches scurrying for lawyers and pardons all.... And so. Fuck you. Your world will end.
I dunno, seems kind of stupid to die for that, to expose corruption. I'd prefer to live, give me the Galileo plan.
Don't know if i'd call that stupid. Depends on his intentions. Though, maybe i define "stupidity" a bit different.... i do not see it as "someone is acting in a way that is inefficient in achieving MY goals" but instead "someone is acting in a way, that is inefficient in achieving HIS/HER goals"..... or in short: incomptence in achieving own goals (which as a premise also requires understanding what one wants, and how to achieve it).
So, what about socrates? Was his decision stupid according to the above definition? Depends on what he wanted, and the circumstances. For example, was it important to him, to continue having influence on the world beyond this point? Or did he already consider his past actions sufficient, and it was only a matter of amplifying his past actions - i.e. via martyrdom (i'm almost sure i spelled that wrong)? If the later, would martyrdom have a higher impact, than him continueing to live, regarding that trial?
Or was he just stubborn, and wanted to stick to his rules no matter the circumstances and his goals (stupidity)? Or something entirely different?
Okay, time to shoot my own argument in the foot, after having provoked some thoughts. Remember some of his ideas? Especially about the state? What are the odds, that he just stubbornly stuck to his vision, even if the current state had nothing to do with it, and thus possibly did not deserve loyality?
It's "Live Free Among Honest Citizens or Die."
"Don't know if i'd call that stupid. Depends on his intentions."
"Don't know if i'd call that stupid. Depends on his intentions."
I think his thought processes went something like "Hmm... Squeeze a few more years out of this shell or... Immortality?" Clearly, it was to have his ideas live forever.
Ya, death is not the end. OTOH it's not much of a beginning either.
Amusing and good point :-)
"Socrates demanded his own death, and demanded he enact it, to fully expose the venality and corruption of his city state.
Don't get that anymore, do you?"
Not so much...lol.
However, I've always felt commiting suicide to prove a point...however noble...seemed a less than productive endeavor as the point could very well be lost on the less worthy, to whom the point was trying to be made.
Still...a greenie from me ;-)
If one didn't have the mind of Socrates, would one fare better when falsely accused under direct democracy?
"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
Yeah? No one asked me for my consent. In fact if I refuse I get forcefully placed in a nice small room with iron bars and if I resist I get a nice lead bullet in my head.
Yep, and a Republic is 2 wolfs and a well armed sheep voting on what's for dinner.
this is something young communalists and good hearted people fail to understand all too often.
Look at the people around you. I would guess that the great bulk of them are braindead morons. Do you really want full democracy with that crowd? Let's do my favorite test. Let's head into the NYC subway and then answer if you want direct democracy. The 4 train proves just how frightening democracy would be.
My next door neighbors could give the 4 train folks a run for their money. They are a white amrried couple, in their 30s, 2 small children , stay at home mom. A few days ago, they changed their exterior front door light bulbs to red. We thought that they were doing something for Halloween. But last night they hid in their house & didn't turn the outside lights on. Scary folks.
"Direct democracy" can't really work well in in polities larger than a few thousand at most. You have to be able to buttonhole those you disagree with and engage in debate.
Democracies are mobs.
I prefer a libertarian dictatorship.
Force the people to accept individual liberty and personal respinsibility.
Americans don't care about that antiquated hooplah, they're all dancing with the stars.
Elected Monarchy with term limits. Best possible system. One head to roll if the people are not respected. No pointing fingers or mysterious man behind the curtain. A single Pharaoh on a single 5 year term.
The vote will be in January? The EU doesn't have that long to go also I didn't know it was also about staying in the EU, this is getting extremely nasty.
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