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Paul Ryan Throws Up All Over Reid $1 Trillion Budget Gimmick

Tyler Durden's picture


Earlier it was our turn to suffer a series of subdural hematomas courtesy of the $1 trillion in "savings" from wars yet unfought as per Harry Reid's plan "proposal." Now, it is Paul Ryan's turn.

A Trillion-Dollar Gimmick

July 25, 2011

 “Why, one wonders, not ‘save’ $5 trillion by proposing to spend that amount to cover the moon with yogurt and then cancelling the proposal?”

-George Will, Washington Post, March 12, 2009

Claim 1: “Winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will save $1 trillion.”

Reality: The Reid plan relies on the inaccurate assumption that surge-level spending in Iraq and Afghanistan is scheduled to continue over the next decade. An honest budget cannot claim to save taxpayers’ dollars by cutting spending that was not requested and will not be spent. Senate Democrats are employing a budget gimmick that will not fool the credit markets and does not address the urgent need for Washington to get its fiscal house in order.

Claim 2: “Paul Ryan’s budget also included this savings in its deficit reduction calculation.”

Reality: False. The House-passed budget cuts $6.2 trillion in spending relative to President Obama’s Fiscal Year 2012 budget request. This $6.2 trillion figure assumes ZERO savings from the global war on terror relative to the President’s budget.


The $2.7 trillion debt-limit increase proposal offered by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid contains a $1 trillion gimmick meant to disguise the plan’s shallowness on spending cuts. Supporters of the Reid plan are measuring their savings against a baseline that assumes the continuation of surge-level spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, even though the President has neither requested this funding nor signaled that he might request it. Instead, the President has signaled the opposite: a troop drawdown over the next few years. In other words, the Reid plan is claiming credit for “savings” that were already scheduled to occur, and for “cutting” spending that no one has requested.

Rather than defend this gimmick on the merits, supporters of the Reid plan are defending it by claiming that House Republicans “also included” this $1 trillion in savings when calculating spending reductions in the budget resolution that passed the House last April. This claim is false. The House-passed budget cuts $6.2 trillion in spending relative to President Obama’s FY2012 budget request, and this spending reduction assumes ZERO savings from the global war on terror relative to the President’s budget.

In the interest of maximum transparency, House Republicans produced additional estimates in order to provide a broad range of comparisons by which outsiders could judge the seriousness of the their budget’s commitment to real spending cuts and controls.

For instance, Table S-4 of the House-passed budget provides two savings estimates. The first estimate compares the House-passed budget to the “current law” baseline used by the Congressional Budget Office [CBO], even though House Budget Committee Republicans have consistently noted that the CBO current-law baseline is not the most reasonable budget baseline with which to compare future-year budget plans. For example, the current-law baseline assumes a $3.5 trillion across-the-board tax increase in 2013, as well as a continuation of spending for the global war on terror at its current level for the rest of the decade, with upward adjustments for inflation. The CBO has noted that these policy outcomes are unlikely, which is why it has also constructed an “alternative fiscal scenario” baseline that assumes more realistic outcomes.

In order to provide a more relevant comparison, House Budget Committee Republicans provided a second estimate in Table S-4, comparing the House-passed budget to President Obama’s FY 2012 budget request. This comparison makes clear that, even with no savings attributed to the troop drawdown and with identical numbers to the President’s on the war on terror, the House-passed budget cuts spending by $6.2 trillion relative to the President’s request.

It’s one thing to include, as the House-passed budget does, information about savings relative to the CBO’s current-law baseline as part of an effort to be comprehensive and transparent. It’s another to claim, as supporters of the Reid plan are claiming, that such “savings” represent a major commitment to cutting spending. It simply isn’t true.

It is encouraging to see Senate Democrats acknowledge that job-destroying tax increases are a bad idea – and that they are ready to work with House Republicans to cut government spending. Yet it is critical for policymakers to maintain credibility as they work together to deal responsibly with the debt ceiling. Senator Reid’s misleading claims will not pass muster with credit markets. Such gimmickry does a disservice to the American people, who deserve responsible, honest leadership.


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Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:19 | 1492379 oogs66
oogs66's picture

though they have succeeded in convincing america they are 'saving money'   does anyone remember it is just reducing the deficit?  does anyone believe that future cuts will ever be enacted?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:22 | 1492387 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

the dirty little secret is this. it is already over for us. almost everyone here at zerohedge knows this.  heck a blind man could see it...........

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:32 | 1492424 Sathington Willougby
Sathington Willougby's picture


Yer right.  No more aid to any fucking losers.  That includes  ALL the shit for brains assholes in the middle east.  Currently we give more to Israels enemies than them but fuck em all. 

No more fucking foreign aid to anyone.  We would have beat Bin Laden by leaving that region and they could all hurl sticks and feces at each other until the end of time.

End militarism.

End war on everything, drugs, literacy, terror and anything else, nouns verbs inanimate objects what a contrivance.

The faster this sham of a life thieving govt ends, the better.  Debt ceiling to infinity, dollar to zero, empire collapse.  All the livestock fail when their welfare doesn't show up, wither and die.  Everyone else lives happily ever after as free thinking individuals.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:06 | 1492522 MrSteve
MrSteve's picture

"ending the war on nouns and verbs" .... genius!  the adverbs and adjectives will hate you forever though...prepositions are indifferent, generally

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:18 | 1492552 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

"That is something up with which I will not put."    --Winston Churchill


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:45 | 1492620 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Interventions and tough love won't cut it.  Like all addicts, the United States (and the most of the western world) will have to hit rock bottom before we stop this madness.

"Hasten the Collapse, OBAMA 2012"

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:08 | 1492611 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

it all screams ACCOUNTING GIMMICKS to me.

Someone call up Rumsfeld and ask where that 2.3 trillion went

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:23 | 1492564 Coyote57
Coyote57's picture

Mr. Willooughby:

"We would have beat Bin Laden by leaving that region and they could all hurl sticks and feces at each other until the end of time."

I think you are overlooking the fact that, 'that region' contains all the oil we need to run our economy.

That region can do anything they want to us and we must take it because we are slaves to their oil pure and simple.

You will have to come up with an alternate plan

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:28 | 1492579 Captain Kurtz
Captain Kurtz's picture

indeed, hence why we establish non-democratic regimes in this territory, continuosly

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:43 | 1492613 bardian
bardian's picture

<I think you are overlooking the fact that, 'that region' contains all the oil we need to run our economy>


No, we don't need foreign oil.  If we want foreign oil, I have a radical plan for you:  BUY IT FROM THEM!!!!!. Since when does peaceful voluntary exchange not work for oil??

Get out of right wing land.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:49 | 1492895 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

How does left wing land define "fair" as far as real prices are concerned? We have no need to purchase any hydrocarbons from any foreign entity. Lets use our resources before we find ourselves paying $300.00 dollars a barrel from a nation which is being "fairly" compensated because 400 years ago someone said something mean to them.

Left wing land.....not voting for someone because of their skin color is wrong. Voting for someone if their color of skin is the right color is good, double plus good.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:53 | 1492639 Ray Elliott
Ray Elliott's picture

I have been informed that the oil in the Williston Basin is greater than all the oil in Saudia Arabia and neighbors.  It has been successfully accessed by the wonders of drilling into shale (about 12,000 ft.), side drilling, and fracing with high pressure water.  The Williston Basin should last far longer than the mideast oil sources.

Let them proceed with the hurling of feces.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:44 | 1492866 roccman
roccman's picture

It is less about quantity and more about production rates.


Athabasca will only ever produce 5-7 MB/D. And that assumes all the fresh water and NG are available to "melt rock" into a kerogen - that needs refined AGAIN to get into your tank.


1000 barrels a SECOND is an IMPOSSIBLE act to follow.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 22:01 | 1492965 Idiot Savant
Idiot Savant's picture

Correct, and not just rate of production, but infrastructure to transport the oil. Perhaps Mr. Elliot should spend some time over at theoildrum.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:33 | 1492807 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

We also need oil from Canada, yet we are not bombing them. We need oil from Venezuela and Mexico, and we're not bombing them. Strange how that works. 

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 00:00 | 1493384 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

You bomb some and the rest fall in line. Idea is to bomb far off countries as you don't want blowback from countries that are nearby...

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:33 | 1492802 roccman
roccman's picture

what does OBL have to do with ANYTHING?

you're not suggesting he had something to do with 911?

yes - these wars should end, but they won't because 'merikans think OBL (or whoever the hell is the next boogyman) lives under our collective beds.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:30 | 1492425 Infinite QE
Infinite QE's picture

Is RobotTard blind? He still thinks Netflix is going to $1000

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:18 | 1492550 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

By George, I think you have it.

Reid should assume that the gov't will put $1 trillion in to NetFlix stock, that it will go up to $1,000, and that can fund all of our killing brown people for black oil.   Problem solved, move along.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:39 | 1492840 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

He still thinks Netflix is going to $1000

I was surprised and a little dismayed  to find myself in agreement with RoboTrader on this point.

But then I realized -- he was thinking share price.  I was thinking market cap.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:04 | 1492669 Mongrel
Mongrel's picture

Because it's "already over," how many ZHers would favor 1) revolution or 2) State secession from DC as a remedy? I know that the sheep will do nothing, so it's 3) serfdom for them.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 23:25 | 1493297 wardawg12
wardawg12's picture

Definitely number 2 for starters

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:22 | 1492388 Deacon Frost
Deacon Frost's picture

Exactly right

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:27 | 1492410 nedwardkelly
nedwardkelly's picture

This entire brouhaha is a complete and utter farce. The fact that the current goings on are considered a 'serious' discussion is absolutely ludicrous.

All anyone is talking about is 'deficit reduction'. Noone is talking about deficit elimination, or god forbid, surplus. Maybe we should all try to change the conversation so it's expressed how it really is - this is a conversation about how much the debt will be increased by. Paul Ryans plan, Reids plan, Boehners plan - they're all fatal, just some are slower than others.

A 1 trillion dollar 'cut' over 10 years will result in higher national debt. A 4 trillion dollar cut over 10 years will result in a higher national debt.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:51 | 1492489 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Thats what everyone thought but who's gonna cave ? They both keep upping the anti, investing more pride as the days tick by...

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:22 | 1492560 macholatte
macholatte's picture

It's an insult. The George Will quote says it best. To even dignify these "plans" as anything other than scams,  hustles, subterfuge and propaganda with the explicit intention to mislead and swindle the public is outrageous. Yet, nobody rioting. Nobody marching in the street. The sheeple don't feel threatened.


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 23:13 | 1493262 tsx500
tsx500's picture reason to feel threatened ! -bahhh aahhhh baaa- who got voted off The Bachelor this week . -baaahhhhh bbaaahhhh- Hope &Change - bbaaahhhh

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:41 | 1492595 caconhma
caconhma's picture

People, you are imbeciles.

Both political parties propose to increase the US deficit. None propose to cut deficit.

To make a long story short, America is moving to a bankruptcy. It is a matter of just how soon.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:50 | 1492634 Doña K
Doña K's picture

Best way to starve the beast: Sell all paper assets and buy physical gold and Silver. Sleep well at night and survive the bust. 

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:38 | 1492829 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

You better stock up on guns, ammo, medicine, food and water too. The majority will not be ready for the collapse and will be gunning for the few who did. Your best friends will slit your throat to feed their children.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 23:15 | 1493267 tsx500
tsx500's picture

...damn , there goes my buzz

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:20 | 1492383 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

that's right. everything is on the table except any deductions from the military industrial complex , weapons sales and aid and gifts to see. ryan is a good conservative and a good conservative always supports war and our only "fwiend" in the middle east...............yep, its time to puke......

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:24 | 1492396 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Wrong.  Everything is on the table, but real cuts.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:27 | 1492414 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

the department of war makes war. we are war economy. when we stop fighting, we die...........the fiat regime has always propped up the military industrial complex and vice versa. they are codependent vehicles.........

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:41 | 1492453 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Oh contrare.  We are the Welfare Economy with the best Food Stamp President in history.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:47 | 1492471 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

well guess what?  i am sure you know that this new budget deal makes severe cuts in these welfare programs. can you say burning cities?  i knew you could..........we hang by a thread...........

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:29 | 1492420 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

A disturbing story on Iraq..........


"And so it is that at a cost of over $1 trillion and the lives of more than 4,500 troops, the United States may be on the verge of handing China – America’s main economic rival and long-term threat to its global dominance – the gift of a firm foothold in the Middle East. And this took place without the Chinese having ever supported the Iraq war in any way. Such are the ironies of modern geopolitics".

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:40 | 1492451 DosZap
DosZap's picture


And this took place without the Chinese having ever supported the Iraq war in any way. Such are the ironies of modern geopolitics".

Oh yes they supported it,they were ALL against US going in.............

After we got there, we found out WHY. The sanctions in place, were NEVER followed by China, Russia, and France.

They were doing business as usual w/Sad Man, until we went it.

Got caught w/their Wieners in the gate.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:29 | 1492581 Missiondweller
Missiondweller's picture

Interesting story. Thanks for posting

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:57 | 1492643 ThirdCoastSurfer
ThirdCoastSurfer's picture

Not to mention all the lives and treasure lost to China in the battles of Vietnam and Korea. The threat of "global communism"  in Asia was not from rice farmers and this way to cozy relationship we have with China and Corporate America is a fist full of feces in the face of US Veteran's who couldn't give a damn about their fallen brothers so long as they can fly the US flag and display the bumper sticker of service that they bought from their former attackers.

Soon no doubt, the troops of Afghanistan and Iraq will be buying whatever Iran has to offer as soon as the TV tells them to. 

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:29 | 1492772 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

You mean the UAW is paying back the 40 + billion dollars Mr. Obama gave them as payback for the union bribes? Like you said everything is on the table right?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:29 | 1492773 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

You mean the UAW is paying back the 40 + billion dollars Mr. Obama gave them as payback for the union bribes? Like you said everything is on the table right?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:21 | 1492384 Ancona
Ancona's picture

These guys are a total fucking joke.

I'm moving to Burma, at least it's a known value.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:23 | 1492392 mynhair
mynhair's picture

'Saving'  is a 6 letter word.

Unlike 'suks'.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:23 | 1492395 Noah Vail
Noah Vail's picture

American people, who deserve responsible, honest leadership.

Really? Then why do they keep voting into office the same people who do not give it to them? Answer: because they like looting the Federal Treasury.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:31 | 1492583 Missiondweller
Missiondweller's picture

People voted for Obama because they did think he was different. They bought into "Hope & Change".


They were wrong.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:24 | 1492399 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

The only thing worse than your own vomit on your shoes is someone else's vomit on your shoes. I don't think this is Paul Ryan's mess on my shoes.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:50 | 1492481 Misean
Misean's picture
You can't really dust for vomit.
Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:54 | 1492914 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture


Actually you can. DNA from the stomach acids and cells from the stomach wall with the vomit.

DNA bitches.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 22:57 | 1493198 Bonesetter Brown
Bonesetter Brown's picture


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:25 | 1492401 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

I know it's customary not to read the entire article before commenting.

Read this one.

Ryan is the budget guru of Congress.  He understands the methodologies and rejects the old approach that ran up the debt.

He trashes Reid's plan because Reid's plan has nothing in it.  Cuts have to be real, deep and now.  There is no choice.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:33 | 1492432 kito
kito's picture

@crashis--ryan rejects the old approach, really? how much does he want to cut immediately from the 600+ billion dollar bloat coming from the pentagon? dont get caught up in the "good congresspeople vs the bad congresspeople" show. they are all blood sucking parasites.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:50 | 1492478 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

The Pentagon will be cut.  It all will be cut.

It's important to understand the specifics of DoD's budget.  A big chunk of that 600 billion is retiree medical and pension.  That will be cut, but only when medicare and civil service pensions are cut.  When we get there, the military won't be immune, and Ryan has said that.

But more important is the layout of force structure.  The dirty little secret of warfare is that nuclear weapons are very cheap.  They don't require tens of thousands of men on a front line with another tens of thousands in support.  They are metal on a rocket and a few hundred guys can maintain them.

That means to get savings of significant numbers, you have to cut conventional forces.  When you do that, you present a future President with a crisis response proportionality spectrum that is very binary -- zero response or nuclear.  You have taken away all his other responses.

So yes, the Pentagon will be cut, but you could cut all 100% of its 600B and still face the majority of the deficit to reduce.


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:37 | 1492594 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

They are metal on a rocket and a few hundred guys can maintain them.

Have you heard of WOPR? We can save even more!

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:42 | 1492860 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Cut the entire DOD budget and we still have a $1 trillion deficit each year. Why not roll spending back to 1999 levels and repeal the Bush tax cuts? Both sides get what they want and we will be pretty close to a balanced budget. 

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:23 | 1492565 packeteerist
packeteerist's picture

Ryan is a fucking joke like Reid, Oblama, Liberjew, and the rest of Congress. His plan is even more of a joke because he has fooled dipshits like you into thinking he is cutting. Or you are a online fluffer for Ryan.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:35 | 1492590 Missiondweller
Missiondweller's picture

packet: Name some specifics, otherwise you just sound like a partisan hack and are contributing nothing here.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:46 | 1492623 packeteerist
packeteerist's picture

How the fuck can I be a 'partisan' when I hate both sides, fucktard. go google his 'plan' for yourself sheep, and then square that with our interest due on the new debt ceiling for the next 10 years - unless you don't have the intellectual curiousity - you are the partisan more likely.



Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:25 | 1492402 Clint Liquor
Clint Liquor's picture

The American People deserve responsible, honest leadership?

Isn't it the American People who elected these buttholes?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:25 | 1492405 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

another dirty little secret is that according to the audit done by frank dodd mandate,  all of those trillions given to those 4 united states banks probably , did not make them well. they are still in the hole. gee i wonder why?  what finanicial black hole are they out there sitting on that we don't know about......

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:12 | 1492543 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

There is a $1,500,000,000,000,000.00 black hole of derivatives which must at some point be unwound.  Saying that will be ugly is the understatement of all time.


Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:16 | 1492547 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

if you remember a few years ago, there was a lot of talk about this. but that talk went away, but this problem did not. why would these banks need this kind of reserves?  something is fishy.........i mean what are we talking about?  trillions. now it appears nobody even cares when you talk about trillions. it is amazing.........

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:44 | 1492614 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

When the fringe dwellers started talking trillions, I started thinking gold (and silver).

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:27 | 1492409 mynhair
mynhair's picture

$800 billion in failed Porculus spending, which is baselined thanks to 815 days with no budget courtesy of the Libs equals a minimum needed cut of $8 trillion over 10 years.  Any questions?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:28 | 1492417 mynhair
mynhair's picture

$800 billion in immediate cuts is the minimum acceptable.


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:27 | 1492412 pesamystik
pesamystik's picture

What is the percentage of Americans being fooled by this "budget wrangling?" I'd like to know, probably 95 to 98 percent would be my ballpark guess. The banking, corporate, and military sectors will make out like bandits as usual, and meanwhile the American people will keep yelling that the other side is to blame. I just cannot believe I'm still living in this two party nightmare.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:31 | 1492427 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

the nice easy going liar senator cockran was on cnbc this morning hinting about this very thing. he said that this budget discussion was at best , a non issue compared to overall debt problems, problems that we as a nation must seriously face and deal with or else...........gee, yah think senator?   we don't owe these crooks anything. they spent the money whatever money they are talking about. they stole it. let them deal with it. fuck them.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:28 | 1492416 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Serious question...

Does anyone here have a breaking point which they will simply take their family and leave the country?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:31 | 1492422 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Wanted to 6 yrs ago, but couldn't get my money out.  Needed to unwind several 1031 deals inside the Apr tax date and couldn't.  Now have no buyers.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:33 | 1492433 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

past mine but we're moving to a house in the country middle of August...oh that country?  I'm in Canada though and things are still stable on the surface here but I'd really like to be going to the southern hemisphere if I could wrangle it. In answer to your question we blew threw my breaking point this winter.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:45 | 1492464 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

a few years ago, charles smith did a complete discussion on this very point. he said moving to the country has its good points and bad points. i am sure you can figure that out........getting out by yourself presents problems that can manifest themselves during bad times.........however, tactical withdrawals from the big cities is most encouraged at this time, if possible.........

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:40 | 1492452 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

there is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. if you move, you will have to plug into the fiat system at the place where you live , unless you can figure out a way to divest yourself of all paper and live in the bush , somehow. it would be, instead of running, get on a war footing.......buck up, butch up and ruck up and get ready. the party is about to start.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:53 | 1492491 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

HPD thanks for your thoughts.  In my case my wife's family is from that area and most are still there now and they're close.  There's definately no safe place and it will be no picnic, my main thought pattern was like this "if the ATMs stop or there are blackouts or the water and sewage system breaks down, even if public transport stopped it would be chaos in the city within hours.  Being on the edge of a small village with lots of space might buy us a few days to plan something and weigh up options".  Could be wrong but I'll take my chances

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:20 | 1492555 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

I don't know: I've seen the movies: seems like things are really bad in the hinterland too (pre/post collapse)

mad max

the hills have eyes 1-3

the road

billy jack

children of men

red dawn

Though tactically it makes sense to be on land you could rely on for sustenance, the idea is so engrained from seventies era survival stories and beyond probably there would be lots of others thinking the same thing. 


Tue, 07/26/2011 - 00:17 | 1493438 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Yeah, but.  I moved to the far boonies in the 70s and its working great for me, and nice when times are good too.  None of those issues you quote are likely to apply in a "town" where most of the people are retired or close to it, and we're all friends.  No big defense issues should arise, but if they do, only I know my acres well enough to hide there and plink bad guys -- they'd never find me unless I wanted to be found.  We have a neighborhood watch on steroids, otherwise known as the little old lady gossip network, news travels quick = you'd have a heads up if a swarm of baddies were to show up anywhere inside miles, and people to come to your aid if they didn't take care of them themselves.  And vice versa.  Should a neighbor ping me with a problem - any problem, I'm there for them and they're there for me.

With the tiny infrastructure, this isn't even an easy place to get to with a map -- many miles of unpaved roads through the hills.  No mobs possible, no street corners.

Water everywhere, potable.  Rich land if you can grow on a slope (hilly in Appalachia) and so forth.  There are places, and really you don't want to have to force yourself into one, but be there already if bad things go down.  Remember "We'll take care of our own" can be good if you're one of the "We".

Slowly getting slightly more crowded.  All the places here used to be hundreds of acres.  But as the old folks die, their kids divvy up the land and sell it at auction to grab the dough and go back to the city (idiots).  County will only let you divide so small, so plots under 10-20 acres are quite rare, and going for maybe 4k acre or thereabouts -raw land, you do the rest.  Home cost like, well, homes - not as much as in the city, but a mcmansion is a mcmansion, and there are some around (mostly for sale, for some odd reason).

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:45 | 1492619 Missiondweller
Missiondweller's picture

I'm certainly no survivalist but I've taken some precautions. I have extra gasoline, enough that I could drive out of the metro area if gas stations were down. I have extra food and a "Go-bag" used for earthquake prepoaration. Its also convenient if I'm "evacuating" the metro area do to urban strife or some other issue.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:47 | 1492469 youngman
youngman's picture

I did....I moved to Colombia....but I do not have any family....its a great country though

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:54 | 1492497 monoloco
monoloco's picture

Absolutely, I hit mine 20 years ago and bailed. Best thing I ever did.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:55 | 1492498 Bobportlandor
Bobportlandor's picture

I have all ready started a fallback plan just in case, and its not as easy as one might think.

Another ID is to assemble  group of diverse souls to tough it out somewhere in the country, away from the cities.


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:27 | 1492575 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

I got out of the Cities on the east coast.

I am a adequate distance away from downtown, however we are not in the best of places. Drawing on some of my experiences as a Trucker, there are spots in the USA that God created just for me and my family.

Everything else is established. Guns and all that. Meanwhile we stay and stick it out.

But to leave the country? Erm, that would be something, but me thinks it can be done using a Seagoing vessal. (A 30 footer or something)

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:59 | 1492508 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

I was in Miami recently.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:41 | 1492605 MacchuPicchu
MacchuPicchu's picture

I'm here in the US and my fiancée is in Paris (she's French) – the plan was for her to come here and practice medicine in about 2 years' time, but I've begun to think we might be less effed over there (euroskeptic trolls note: I did not say 'good' I said 'less effed'). So your question is apt. Before I really started paying attention my breaking point was 'Republicans let the financial sector off the hook for causing the meltdown.' Then I realized both Repubs and Dems play in a cute little sandbox the borders of which are determined by the big money that owns our political system, so realistically, I should pack my bags. Trying to nail down a specific breaking point is hard. I think in the end it might be tied to my employment situation as a freelancer. If my big clients went away I'd probably just head overseas. Not having kids makes it much easier. 

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:43 | 1492612 caerus
caerus's picture

Thought about it...have to go through an embassy... hear the waiting period now is over a year decided to stay...fuck it this is my goddam country

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:07 | 1492674 Animal Cracker
Animal Cracker's picture

It's not as easy as some make it sound.

Unless you are a Doctor or possess a skill that is needed in your destination country, the hurdles for immigration can be challenging.

It seems that some folks think we get extra credit for being Americans...but we do not.

As for those places where immigration is a possibility - say Belize - it would be wise to consider the tradeoffs regarding infrastructure, crime, etc.  When TSHTF, you don't want to be perceived as the rich American hiding out in his villa.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:29 | 1492419 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

I must say despite what the MSM tries to tell me, I think the Democrats and Obama are getting schooled.  Events on the ground could change quickly I'm referring to the last couple of days.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:32 | 1492429 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Would you like a refreshing cup of TEA?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:45 | 1492457 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

When i've ordered a tea in America it can mean hot tea (pronounced hat tea in western New York) or iced tea and the first time I was asked "hot tea or iced tea" when I ordered one I thought they were nuts.  When I was in Texas tea was a big jug of iced tea with lemon in it and I'd take one of those for sure.  Unless TEA stands for something...

edit: I wrongly assumed you were taking the piss in regards to my grammar, no I'm not a tea party person I was just making an observation that the Republicans are driving the bus right now, but as I said that could change.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:49 | 1492473 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Unless TEA stands for something..."

TEA stands for Taxed Enough Already.

And I like it cold & sweet, kinda like revenge.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:57 | 1492501 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Taxed Enough Already

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:08 | 1492527 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

Are you a greedy Bengal (?) that doesn't like paying 50 cents on every dollar to bail out banks, GM, "the Libyan people" etc. (sarc)

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:44 | 1492617 caerus
caerus's picture

The true Texas tea is, of course, west Texas intermediate...glad you liked it btw...from the atx

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:42 | 1492459 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Hangin on to their necks like pitbulls...DC hasn't seen anything like this in years, their skeered ;-)

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:29 | 1492421 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

There are many ways to skin a cat.  I propose that we not reelect any of the current CONgress or Senate.  That will reduce their pension funds and health benefits -- even with their own, private super,duper pensions and health benefits structure they voted for themselves.

Until I see the laws of this land apply to our government I won't be happy.

What we need is a law and order candidate which starts with Washington and Wall Street.


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:34 | 1492435 mynhair
mynhair's picture

-1 for advocating torturing cats

-2 for not having a TEA party member represent you

-4 for not realizing when these scum are eligible for pensions or HC

+6 for realizing there are laws

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:40 | 1492600 nedwardkelly
nedwardkelly's picture

That will reduce their pension funds and health benefits

How so? Dont congresspeople become eligible for full benefits after three years? Unsurprisingly less than a full term?



Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:34 | 1492431 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Excuse me, but this a bit OT, but I think if you get HIS(His Majesty before a LaRaza Goup) inference, it will scare the shite out of you.

Totally different issue (but relevant IMO), as to where we may wind up, if we do not WTFU.

Direct Quote:

"The idea of doing things on my own is very tempting, I promise you, not just on immigration reform. But that's not how our system works. That's not how our democracy functions," Obama told the National Council of La Raza.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:37 | 1492445 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Heil Oweblahma!  Screw the Constitution.  Clinton did.  LBJ did.  (hmmm - lbj, but I digress)

FDR and Wilson did.

When in doubt, stack the Courts with moron drones!

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:51 | 1492486 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

Especially when pesky campaign contribution limits get in your way:


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:42 | 1492455 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Seems like our recent presidents are fond of such ideas...for example:

Things would go easier if this were a dictatorship so long as i'm the dictator” - George W. Bush

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:44 | 1492576 i-dog
i-dog's picture

They (Bush, Obomber and the Congressional leaders) know what's coming ... this stage-managed and scripted standoff between the House and the Senate is the perfect setup for a President to "take charge" and "do what's right for the country at this critical time". It'll happen before 4Q2012, so expect it to happen either now or, more likely, after just one more kick of the can into next year.

IMO, the election will be called off next year and Obomber will impose martial law under a "state of emergency". All the necessary Executive Orders have been in place for ages---and supplemented by the Patriot Act extension (passed by 2:1 in the House and 3:1 in the Democrat Senate).

In the meantime, Obomber willl just continue playing golf until he gets the stage call from The Directors.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 23:02 | 1492963 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Will the trigger be food riots, false flag terror, or Obama's imminent loss to Ron Paul?

c) All of the above, and the PC left and the neocons will cheer.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:45 | 1492462 SovietCong
SovietCong's picture

Reid: “This proposal satisfies Democrats core principles by protecting Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security and providing a long-term extension of the debt ceiling that the markets are looking for. The bill also meets Republicans demands – two major demands: it contains no revenues and the amount of the cuts meets the amount of the debt ceiling increase.”

So here's the Dems' vision of how the economy works: markets primary concern are long-term guarantees of continued debasement of dollar and money printing so that entitlements can be maintained. Latest polls suggest Americans in their majority approve Mr. Reid's take on economics.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:07 | 1492524 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

It contains no revenues?



Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:21 | 1492558 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

You cannot seriously talk about deficit reduction and balanced budgets without cutting war spending.  Republicans seem to want to take the money from Grandpa on Social Security and give it to Blackwater. 

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:46 | 1492467 poor fella
poor fella's picture

Who the hell wrote this? Kudlow? Really? "Job-destroying tax increases"?

I never realized IT'S SOOO EASY! Not increasing taxes will create jobs!! ??

Spread the word!! We're saved!! Better times ahead!! 'They' figured it out! I'm going out right now to buy some shit I don't need... cuz taxes ain't goin' up! I been on the sidelines sooo long waiting to buy sumpin'

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:53 | 1492493 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture


Both tax increases AND spending cuts are fiscal contractionary.  They will reduce GDP.  

If you believe reducing GDP destroys jobs, and it's likely everyone does believe that, then tax increases are indeed job destroying.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:02 | 1492513 mynhair
mynhair's picture

23% think Mikey really likes it.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:04 | 1492518 poor fella
poor fella's picture

I get it, just sick and tired of these simplistic arguing points that are constantly prattled off. What if there was a petroleum tax that went into a real energy policy and research into transportation fuel? Perhaps using the lease money from PUBLIC LANDS. Market forces don't exist for large national projects. This is a minor example - NONE OF THESE PEOPLE THINK LONG TERM! That's the problem. Ryan doesn't fool me.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:08 | 1492526 Misean
Misean's picture

No of course not. Why, it was a government project that discovered a use for petroleum in the first place. And rocketry...why without government, it would have never got off the ground. Of course Edison and Tesla were both government project whores who got no where until Unky Sugah started handing out funds...and don't get me started on Mr. Westinghouse...

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:12 | 1492542 poor fella
poor fella's picture

And a rising GDP is smoke and mirrors. Price * Production

So what..  Prices go up you say? Yay! Rising GDP and standard of living for all! 

The Bernank and Jeethner can take a two-ended formula, stick each end in their bumm, and have at it.

These politicians are like Richard Dryfus in 'What About Bob' and none of them have a clue how the world works outside their bubbles! Pimping books and photo ops - that's what's important!

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:59 | 1492507 Misean
Misean's picture

Someone's forgotten to take his lithium again...

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:22 | 1492561 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

Thanks for the laugh.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:49 | 1492477 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

now is the time

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:51 | 1492488 Blagio
Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:12 | 1492540 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture


...another fav from the same album: N.W.O.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:51 | 1492490 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Yep, no difference between these two parties none... sarc..  On a more serious note for years, the fat years, there was no difference they just called their outrageous spending different things.  Hopefully the tea's can make a difference keep the left's fantasies of unending equal outcomes going for a few years.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:57 | 1492500 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

You would think that will all this horrific news about political gridlock and infighting...

And the USA on the brink of a catastrophic default...

I'd expect ES and bond futures to be lock limit down and gold at $2,000.

But instead, cult tech stocks like AAPL and retail stocks with insane P/E ratios over 100 are getting Heatmapped to new highs every day, and gold stocks like AEM are left for dead like a frozen corpse.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:00 | 1492510 Misean
Misean's picture

My stock of gold is doing quite nicely.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:03 | 1492517 mynhair
mynhair's picture

My stock of gold (miners- AU)  took a dump at close.  What's up with that?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:10 | 1492534 Misean
Misean's picture

Dunno. That's why I don't "own" paper promises to pay paper promises which promise nothing.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:39 | 1492596 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Think South African Nationalization talk.  That's why I'm short BVN (Peru nationialization fears) but long gold itself.  General theme, Long the commodity short the producer.  But I like GG for their geographic diversity and good reserves and NXG for their buy out potential.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:26 | 1492573 caerus
caerus's picture


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:57 | 1492502 poor fella
poor fella's picture

Aww, one whore doesn't like another whore's eyeshadow?

It's a wonder they can fiddle with the sleight of hand going on.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 19:58 | 1492506 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

fuk tyler durden & Total Score

  • free zHedge!
  • end The Committee To Keep Total Score!
  • eat shit; lay eggs; and die young
Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:04 | 1492521 mynhair
mynhair's picture

It's the plank for you, Mickey!  You scurvy rat!

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:25 | 1492569 ping
ping's picture

What IS it with this Total Score stuff? And no, I didn't read the instructions! When I come home from a hard day disconnecting the electricity from old people's homes, or whatever it is I do, I don't have time to read about this kind of communist comments system! I don't want to familiarise myself with it. That's what the muslims would demand of me! You're forcing Obama's sweaty dong down our throats, Tyler Durden!!!

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:42 | 1492610 cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

sou you're the one that un-hooked my Granny's house! right after i report you to obama, I'm gonna....I'm gonna....

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:47 | 1492627 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

It may be subjective, but I believe that finding that oven pizza you thought you ate already AND then finding $20 you forgot about would be a total score.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:31 | 1492586 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

i got this over on   And The Kickers In Reid's Proposed "Deficit Cutting" Plan Are...

slewie the pi-rat (Total Score:2)     YAY!

but only on one post;  someone may have objected "2" me discussing them licking tyler's butt-plug;  who could ever tell?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:59 | 1492654 caerus
caerus's picture

I'm keeping score at home...currently at 69

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:04 | 1492514 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

So he calls Reid's a trillion dollar gimmick?

So Ryan's is a x trillion dollar gimmick?

Hey Dumbass fascist Paul Ryan, you do know if we do your plan, or even a more austere plan, it is only kicking the can down the road, right?

You don't mind kicking the can down the road, nor do any republicans, as long as it cuts 'entitlements' in the process.

We don't have a spending problem, we don't have a taxation problem, we have a fraudulent debt problem.


Boehner is a fucking idiot, because his plan doesn't work.


Just ask yourself, what has changes within our fucked up borken monetary system, if we give up entitlements, and nothing else changes? Oh that's right, nothing that got us here. Wall Street will still be taking it all, and will have latitude to take more.

Paul Ryan and Boehner's plan, doesn't change squat, it only throws people to the wolves, to pay off bankster fraudulent debt.

So if you are for Boehner's plan, or Ryan's plan, how does it feel to throw people to the wolves for bankster fraud, how does bankster dick taste? I wouldn't know, but anyone that is swallowing Boehner's or Ryan's plan and saying to them to hold firm, sure does.

My guess is salty.

Boehner and Ryan, throwing people to the wolves for wall street since, well forever.  They and their cut, cap, and puke plan(s) are fascist, bankster approved bullshit.

Enjoy drinking the sophistry they're offering, hell do 10x what they are offering, it won't change the broken system one bit.

Glass-Steagall is 1000000000000000x whatever Ryan, Paul, Boehner put forward...AND you won't be throwing the real people to the wolves.

We have a fraudulent debt problem, so if someone wrote a fraudulent check on our national account, call the bank and cancel it.  Oh wait, just because it IS the bank that wrote the bad check that's different? Hell no.

Enjoy the taste of dick, Boehner, Ryan plan supporters surely must.  Fraud is fraud.  Boehner and Ryan's plan doesn't address the fraud one bit. Thus their plans do nothing to change what's broken.  But people will get their needless sophistry filled, propaganda instilled bloodlust.  Enjoy the rush, and you must be joking that these plans will change anything.  So why kill grandma? I guess for fun. There is no other reason.  It's grandma season. (oh and impeach Obama)

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:06 | 1492523 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Could you share your thoughts on Harry (I had a stroke 10 yrs ago, and no one noticed) Reid?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:44 | 1492616 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

Picture the scene from the road warrior where they are making the big escape and Mel asks the crazy pilot dude what the plan is...

Plan? There's no plan.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:49 | 1492630 Blanche DuBois
Blanche DuBois's picture

Re impeaching Obama, interesting read on that subject here:

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:07 | 1492525 bigwavedave
bigwavedave's picture

At 9pm President Barrack Obama is to announce a 10 year 'austerity' plan saving trillions of dollars in Gov't spending. To make it more palatable I thought I would share with you all a classic from 1959... Enjoy

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:08 | 1492528 mynhair
mynhair's picture


Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:46 | 1492622 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Just hope it doesn't include 10T$ of savings from not coating the moon's surface with yogurt!  Though that concept is very attractive from a performance art standpoint.  And will we make the yogurt on the moon or transport it there?  How will it be spread?  The mind boggles!

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:10 | 1492536 mynhair
mynhair's picture

The Whole World Wonders...

what the fuk happened to waste, fraud, and abuse?

Shit, that's the entire Goobermint.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:11 | 1492538 T-roll
T-roll's picture

All of their plans are garbage, Ryan's included.  Does he realise that his plan would be unconstitutional if an amendment is passed to balance the budget?

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:40 | 1492601 r101958
r101958's picture

Let me get this straight.....passing a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution would be unconstitutional?.....hmmm, something's not clicking here.....

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:45 | 1492876 T-roll
T-roll's picture

No Ryan's budget plan would be unconstitutional because it doesn't balance the budget for several years.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:12 | 1492541 Debtless
Debtless's picture

If we don't cover the moon with yogurt right away, the terrorists win.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:25 | 1492567 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture


Well, if you are talking about the War on Terror, then their is an umlimited budget.  No equal outcomes for Grandpa, just guys at Blackwater.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:40 | 1492599 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

A planet of yogurt! Talk about a bacterial culture.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:17 | 1492548 poor fella
poor fella's picture

When America defaults, I wonder how many quadrillions of dollars are needed to bail out the world banks, the rich, and multi-nationals? This is starting to sound like a lot of money.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 00:37 | 1493483 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

Unwinding the quadrillion derivatives market will take about $1.98 net.

Let's see, I might have change here. 

Aw forget it, here's 2 bucks.  Keep the pennies.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:18 | 1492553 T-roll
T-roll's picture

We all complain about this mess in Washington, yet "We the People" are ultimately responsible.  We elect these idiots into office, complain about what they do and don't do, but we do nothing but sit on the internet and bitch, bitch, bitch.  Where are the riots and protests?  Obviously we Americans like this political theater.  Pass the popcorn, please.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:20 | 1492554 mynhair
mynhair's picture

To the Eurotrash out there,

Do your coin dealers buy the junk US silver?  The boobus wif wants to have sister-fest on your god-forsaken subcontinent, against all advice.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:35 | 1492592 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

Oh, enjoy the TEA.

Specially in Holland.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 20:21 | 1492557 JuicedGamma
JuicedGamma's picture

Sweet Jesus, what a bunch of idiots.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!