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Peter Schiff Discovers No Country For Corporate Profits

Tyler Durden's picture





 

While the general economy continues to float along a depressionary bottom across all key verticals including housing (quadruple dip), jobs (the "new part-time normal" even as real unemployment has risen to 2012 highs), and manufacturing (contracting for 3rd month in a row and lowest since mid-2009): a bleak picture manifesting itself in a sub-stall speed GDP in the third year after the "recession ended" despite trillions of fiscal and monetary stimulus (not to mention that according to Gluskin Sheff 100% of the developed world is now contracting), one aspect that has not only kept the S&P buoyant, but shoved it to near all time highs, has been the general offset to atrocious labor conditions and low salaries: namely surging corporate profits.

Needless to say (because we have said it many times), corporate profits are no longer surging, and together with corporate revenues, have now peaked on a year over year basis and are declining, but sure enough over the past 3 years, the ability of companies to refinance at ZIRP-levels, and to fire tens of millions of full time workers (offsetting in rare cases by hiring hundreds of thousands of part-time workers) has allowed the build up of a massive cash buffer allowing companies to better prepare for the next systemic crisis, as well as handle the never-ending geopolitical uncertainty. Most importantly, it is this transient yet record profitability, together with now endless central planning intervention by the Fed, that saw the S&P close at the highest level since 2008, a fact which the president will undoubtedly mention and take credit for during the DNC speech in two hours.

So while on one hand corporate profits are something to rejoice over, at least when not blaming them on the previous president, on the other hand it is these same "evil" corporations, in various populist narratives, that are the root of all evil, and are the reason why America's real unemployment rate continues to be sticky in the 15% range.

One such narrative was discovered by none other than Peter Schiff who pulled an OccupyWallStreet (remember that whole Occupy movement?) where but at the Democratic National Convention. What he did, was succeed in exposing some very disturbing prevailing beliefs about the government's role in establishing the 'utility' value of the free market as manifested by corporations, namely that according to a broad cross-section of society, it is the government job to "explicitly outlaw profitability."

We wish to remind readers that this has been done on numerous occasions in the past, but most "effectively" in the Soviet Union's centrally planned regime. Until the USSR's failure of course. The premise of eliminating profitability is also quite popular, and even has its own name: nationalization, and its result in a business "manager" who is perfectly ambivalent if the state owned enterprise makes or loses money. After all the wage is determined by a politburo, and is not a function of the profits, or losses, a business may engender.

Furthermore, it is probably worth reminding that the primary tenet behind capitalism is the production of goods and services for a profit.

Sadly, quite a few of these concepts appear to have not been made clear to not just one or two Americans as the following clip demonstrates.

 


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Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:07 | Link to Comment Capitalist
Capitalist's picture

A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers. - Friedrich August von Hayek

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:09 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Peter Schiff may not be perfect but he catches way too much shit on here. He is a good dude and he has the right intentions. I am glad he got some exposure here.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:19 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I have yet to meet anybody who is perfect, but I can say I like Peter Schiff. He is way ahead of the curve.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:40 | Link to Comment The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

That boy's sure got an ego though. Hard to swallow when he's wrong, but I like him nonetheless.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:49 | Link to Comment economics9698
economics9698's picture

I like Schiff, pretty insightful.  Von Mises, Rothbard, Rand, Friedman, and a few others.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:55 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Going Clint:

http://www.corriere.it/gallery/esteri/09-2012/sedievuote/1/eastwood-disc...

Time to grab an empty chair and have a chat with TOTUS.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:12 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

She needs to be on the lookout for Leprechauns....surely they will be after her lucky charms.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:25 | Link to Comment Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

"Send Schiff a bottle of Bollinger on me....No, make it a case"-Lloyd Blankfein

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:42 | Link to Comment palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

I liked this video better than the one where Schiff tries to bootleg moonshine at the M.A.D.D. convention.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 01:11 | Link to Comment redpill
redpill's picture

One of my accounts is with Schiff's firm precisely because I admire his guts and his ability to definitively call things.  His stock picks are usually foreign, in appreciating currencies, with good dividends.  As sensible approach to equities as one can have these days, imho.

His venturing into the heart of this beast of fucking lunatics deserves some respect for patience if nothing else.  Granted I probably would have wanted to punch just as many people in the face at the GOP convention, just for different reasons.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 06:20 | Link to Comment Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

Schiff you are amazing.  Great books too.  And great radio show www.schiffradio.com 10a-12p EST 

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 08:32 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

How about the above posters talking only about how they dislike or like Schiff do something a little more constructive and actually talk about what Schiff exposed in the interviews. I think that was why Schiff did it.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:15 | Link to Comment LMAOLORI
Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:24 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Empty chair with teleprompter is a clear giveaway as to the identity of the invisible seated person.

http://www.theabsurdreport.com/2012/the-empty-chair-gets-a-teleprompter/

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:29 | Link to Comment LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture

 

 

ROFL that's pretty good too!

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:52 | Link to Comment otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

not peddling any AIPAC bullshit tonight Ahkneel?

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:10 | Link to Comment Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Dems are the clueless Marxist lot in our political system. This should be expected. No good comments can be made about the other side either except they are a little more aware of economics.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 08:50 | Link to Comment FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

There is no "thought or reason" in the democratic party, only emotion.  I have tried to have some very reasonable and respectful discussions with my Mom (who is a die hard Obama fan), but her positions are all based on emotions.  I have given up trying to open her mind to the realities of economics.

I am afraid the same thing is happening with the republicans, too.   The neocons have become very emotional in their "love and hate" of certain things.

Ron Paul was the only guy who made any sense to me, and now he is gone (although on Leno he joked of resting up for a 2016 run).  The whole political landscape is sad and depressing (two more emotions).

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 13:24 | Link to Comment monad
monad's picture

You just know Debt Brother was watching Clint Eastwood, and Clint Eastwood knew it too. The chair was just an excuse to address Debt Brother, live. Clint Eastwood 2012 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:25 | Link to Comment Tom in AZ
Tom in AZ's picture

You people are out of your minds repeating the drivel coming out the those cultists.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 01:39 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I brought my blue tennis shoes. How 'bout you?

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:35 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

schiff is sharp. he can go to either convention and get the net same result: all sides scary. all people really. 

 

 homo sap limitless stupidity no cap can cap.

 

 

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 03:28 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

'Americans' are a very uniform group indeed.

Does not make up for the rest of humanity even though in 'American' myth, only 'Americans' are human beings...

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:49 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

Looks like he is adopting Michael Moore's style of interview, with specifically targetted, carefully worded loaded questions, and you only show the people that agree with your questions.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:12 | Link to Comment Lewshine
Lewshine's picture

Your misguided compassion for individuals who validate that there should be an IQ test given to receive the right to vote...Or in your case, procreate...Is hysterical!

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:37 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

First, Compassion? I was not saying anything about the people in the video, but commenting on the style of questioning posed by Peter Schiff.

Second, I don't think you understand what Rights are. They are inalienable.

Third, "I don't like what your saying, so I'm going to lash out with a personal attack! ha ha!"

People naturally want to agree with other people when talking face to face. Put a camera in their face, and they really want to be cooperative. How you word your questions helps you get people to give the answers you want. How many people did he talk to, in order to make this clip? 100, and choose the top 3?

This is exactly the same techniques used by Michael Moore or Borat, to make your target group appear how you want them to appear.

 

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 00:39 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

So Matt, if Peter Schiff approached you and put a camera in your face and asked you the same question he asked in the video, how would you respond?

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 00:47 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

The first guy had it right: "thank you for your time, I gotta go". 

Any of these "comedy guys", Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, Bill Maher, or apparently Peter Schiff, they have a tendency to creatively edit to create whatever image they want. The only way to win is not to play.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 00:57 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Why not answer truthfully?  Aren't you capable of that?  If you tell him what you honestly think, how can that be a bad thing?

Imagine if he had a video of him asking all these people this question and each time he asked, the person refused to answer.  Wouldn't that make a similar statement about these folks in the video?

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 03:40 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

How could it?

Funny duo dancing as it often happens with 'Americans'...

here's an example:
-------------------
People naturally want to agree with other people when talking face to face. Put a camera in their face, and they really want to be cooperative. How you word your questions helps you get people to give the answers you want.
----------------------

How could it make a similar statement if 'americans' refused to comment? It would blow the perception of cooperation as they would display the option of willingness to cooperate.

Second, the other 'american' provided an answer. 'Americans' know no freedom of speech and as usual, only use that concept to conceal what 'Americans' rely on: censorship.

The first 'American' stated it as it is: when you have no power to censor, it is useless to participate to the 'American' game. Schiff has all the power of edition so he has the power to censor.

And the other 'American' could not take it: as he feels he is on the same side as Schiff who has the power, people walking away from the power scheme are lost assets, an insult on the power structure.

'Americans' run a business of extorting the weak, farming the poor. In such conditions, you simply dont walk away.

Very entertaining and shows how 'Americans' work in duos.

What is concealed? US citizen nature. 'Americans' are duplicitous. Who cares what they tell on a camera? They wont tell their objectives.

On the very contrary, 'Americans' telling outright how 'Americanism' is would have been very surprising.

Expect 'Americans' to propagate and fancy over, not report facts...

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 10:28 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

"Why not answer truthfully?  Aren't you capable of that?  If you tell him what you honestly think, how can that be a bad thing?"

 

You clearly don't understand how this style of "interview" works.

First, interview several people, and edit out the ones that don't give the answers you want.

Ask loaded questions, in the form of yes or no, and if the target tries to give a long form answer, pressure them into a "simple yes or no, answer the question".

Word your questions awkwardly, and say them really fast so the person doesn't get a clear picture of exactly what you are asking.

Get three Yes answers in a row, and you greatly increase the odds of getting a Yes to question number 4.

You can see his view is going to be slanted and edited to show what he wants right at the start with "wait a minute, this is the Democrat National Convention, they don't want to work".

His first question: " Do you think it is fair that corporations make all these profits?"

He wants a yes or no answer. The answer is more complicated, but he has already framed it as a simple yes or no. Which corporations? Profits gained through tax loopholes and regulatory capture, or corporate profits gained through legitamate success?

He is the one who follows her answer with "that's right, we need to ban profits!" then cuts to the next person, so we don't see what her reply or reaction is.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:40 | Link to Comment HD
HD's picture

Schiff is one of the few people that even when I agree with him - I still want to punch him in the face. He seems to work at being as obnoxious as possible.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:44 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

he has to be. takes thick skin to get laughed at for years until he was right. takes balls to have the courage of your convictions too.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:06 | Link to Comment Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture

 

 

I love Schiff too, but yes I do agree with your statement [face punch]. If you are good, you don’t have to tell anybody ……… they will know.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 00:44 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

My suggestion...put on a Peter Schiff mask and punch yourself in the face a few times.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:56 | Link to Comment Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

I like Schiff too! Tyler needs to give him more exposure here, not sure why he does not! Especially when Compared to that old bastard Biderman and some other folks who get an audience on ZH!

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:39 | Link to Comment T-Silver
T-Silver's picture

Democrats scare me

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:45 | Link to Comment surf0766
surf0766's picture

Marxist scare me?

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:48 | Link to Comment prains
prains's picture

Jingoistic xenophobic (I'm the best) americans scare me too

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 06:54 | Link to Comment Mareka
Mareka's picture

I am only for outlawing corporate profits when the corporation in question is only still in existence as a result of government intervention, i.e, Goldman Sachs, AIG, JP Morgan.  The planets finally aligned in a way to rid the world of these parasitic M.F.ers and my government had to jump in and save them using my money.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 05:57 | Link to Comment Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

It is more than just Democrats that scare me. All those that lend their weight and presence to any ideological gathering, without giving serious thought, scare me.

H L Mencken put it well: "[D]emocracy gives [the beatification of mediocrity] a certain appearance of objective and demonstrable truth. The mob man, functioning as citizen, gets a feeling that he is really important to the world—that he is genuinely running things. Out of his maudlin herding after rogues and mountebanks there comes to him a sense of vast and mysterious power—which is what makes archbishops, police sergeants, the grand goblins of the Ku Klux and other such magnificoes happy. And out of it there comes, too, a conviction that he is somehow wise, that his views are taken seriously by his betters—which is what makes United States Senators, fortune tellers and Young Intellectuals happy. Finally, there comes out of it a glowing consciousness of a high duty triumphantly done which is what makes hangmen and husbands happy."

 

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:47 | Link to Comment unrulian
unrulian's picture

i don't think they're scary.....just stupid... however, moon bases and mormon leaders...that's scary.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 01:39 | Link to Comment Freddie
Freddie's picture

Yeah let's grab corporate profits.  Start with all the libtards or Dem frielndly companies first like Apple, Google, Microshaft, Amazon,  Elon Musks shit companies, Starbucks, McDonalds faux shit food, Berkshire Hathways, Facebook - wait no profits there.

How about grab the "profits" Corzine stole and throw his ass in jail.  

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 08:30 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

But unfortunately Hayek didn't take into account corruption or cronyism. Thus even in a totalitarian system, you don't have equality. In any system, there will be those that have more "equality" then others.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:07 | Link to Comment The Wizard of Oz
The Wizard of Oz's picture

GOLD BITCHEZ!!

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:14 | Link to Comment slaughterer
slaughterer's picture

OT: commodities and Nikkei not looking so good right now on overnight futures market.   Why is that? 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:20 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Because 160k on the NFP tomorrow is a done deal. Fed is absolutely on hold next week. But lets be clear there is no going back from here. The data has to stay good. Like real bullshit good. No way they levitate this market without real good bullshit data in the absence of QE.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:31 | Link to Comment flacon
flacon's picture

Not so fast:

Fed Likely to Ease Even With Strong Jobs Report

http://www.cnbc.com/id/48931343

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:37 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I would love to see that. Love it. Lets send crude off the charts, couple it with a treasury selloff and watch gold shoot up. Then after a week or two at best, watch the market sell the news. Have at it.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:51 | Link to Comment WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

I'd love it, too. My TLT puts would zoom, which I think they'll do anyway, but why leave anything to chance? Bring it on.

The calls I bought on SWHC today are flying, and I'm sure a little QE would be good for them, too.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:48 | Link to Comment HD
HD's picture

LIESman used to be a reporter I respected. He's just another Fed mouthpiece now. Reporters sell their integrity for "access".  Bartiromo is in Italy right now demonstrating the CNBC art of anilingus for Mr. Draghi - usually such treatment is reserved for Jamie Dimon.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:56 | Link to Comment Meesohaawnee
Meesohaawnee's picture

you gotta be kidding me...consider the source.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:32 | Link to Comment Lewshine
Lewshine's picture

Fonzanoon,

Not true...Very wrong in fact. Here's tomorrow's action - and why: Tomorrow morning we will get a shockingly (yet absoutely false) high number, well above 160K, probably around 180/200K. Commodities will be torched overnight (as they were this afternoon into close), preparing for the well manufactured, multi-billion fiat fest targeted for response to the FAR better than expected number that the gatekeepers will pull out of thin air. We will see this amazing task take place IN ORDER to continue the facade that it would simply be foolish NOT to vote for the man that literally doubled the stock market, and brought our economy back from the brink. It's theatre pal...Don't confuse it for your reality.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 03:49 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

im not sure where we disagree...

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:08 | Link to Comment flacorps
flacorps's picture

I wonder what would have happened had he asked a Republican conventiongoer or two to choose between a "reasonable profit" and an "obscene profit?"

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:12 | Link to Comment SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

In a truly free market it is up to the consumer which corporations profit. we live under an oppressive corporate fascist regime where big corporations lobby big goverment to pass competition killing legislation thatvsets massive bars to entry. 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:41 | Link to Comment WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Hmmm, I like Schiff too, but he doesn't seem to mention this fact.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 00:51 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Don't hate the corporations.  Hate the politicians who allow themselves to be corrupted by the corporations.  If the politicians wouldn't allow themselves to be bought and paid for, the lobbyists would be ineffective and would cease to exist.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 01:36 | Link to Comment scaleindependent
scaleindependent's picture

"Don't hate the corporations. Hate the politicians who allow themselves to be corrupted by the corporations."

 

That is the most idiotic statement I've read tonight. 

What an idiot.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 03:42 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Welcomed careful movement: tonight.

It usually takes one 'American' to outdo another 'american' but it will happen.

Just stay tuned to find a new most idiotic statement...

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 05:40 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

When you actually find a job, perhaps you'll have a clue how things work in the real world. Problem for you is that finding a job while unable to form a sound argument to support your position will be tremendously challenging.

Keep trying.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 01:17 | Link to Comment Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

In a truly free market, corporations as they have been throughout history (incorporated - granted a business charter by the state) do not - can not - exist. In a truly free market there are no public-law legal entities because there is neither a res publica nor a body of public law nor a public legal system. Please don't feed the ignorant statist shills by confusing private enterprise with "corporations", the term has earned its very very negative connotations. Ignorant statists like to pretend that the worst consequences of state power are actually the consequences of the market, leading to absurd opinions such as that monopoly corporations are a result of the market rather than a symptom of a lack of freedom in the market/excess (presence) of state intervention.

Best of all, such imbeciles outnumber us a million to one.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:22 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Who determines what is an obscene profit? You? ... Obummer?.... The polit bureau?

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:36 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Morality determines it.

An obscene profit is a profit acquired by doing business with the government.

In other words: receiving stolen goods.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:43 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Whose morality ? Yours? The Catholic churches? The local Tabernacle ? The Wickens? Whose mortality determines it? What if I don't have the same belief system as you? I believe a free market should determine what an obscene profit is. If your company can't stand without government support then it deserves to die. I believe that obscene profits are healthy... It encourages other entrepreneurs to enter into competition which will bring costs down.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:59 | Link to Comment surf0766
surf0766's picture

You forgot the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:10 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Indeed! Perhaps those who can first devise clever, yet illogical, schemes to have said profiteers declared witches, and who are able to rouse the populist's pitchforks and torches, and shall decide.

Is it even possible to profit in a free market, in which, one actually exchanges value for value, and there exists some objective method of measuring that value? How much profit is realized as the result of currency debasement between purchase, and sale? Volts and Fiskers being notable exceptions. My Merc Dimes still buy the same basket of goods that they bought in 1950. Did I profit, or did I refuse to consent to theft through currency destruction?

Here's to weighing less than a duck. Hic!!

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:39 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

My answer was morality. Each person's individual morality. I never said anything about whose.

My take on obscene profits is based on my morality and is probably the same as yours: profits should be determined by voluntary action.

My question is why the emotional response? It was uncalled for.

 

 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:52 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

It's wasn't an emotional response. I just asked a basic set if questions trying to nail down your point. The way in which you responded that morality should decide what obscene profits are, you made it sound like some higher moral authority should be making that decision. I'm a free market person , I believe that markets will take care of obscene profits on their own. The problem lies in the fact that when government puts up barriers to entry into the profitable field , it makes it harder for an entrepreneur to compete in that industry.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:03 | Link to Comment Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Ah the amoral argument should be given equal weight, so it's ok to rape three year olds and steal granny's pension because I have a different morality.  I call B.S.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:36 | Link to Comment flacorps
flacorps's picture

I'm just suggesting that the tendency toward rapacity, oligarchy, monopoly, etc. ... with the end result being plutcronyistikakistocracy ... is what tends to cause the reaction that profit is bad, etc.

You just can't get to Marxist/Leninist thinking without a bunch of people doing a bunch of things to hurt other people, at least some of whom are undeserving of the mistreatment.

That is reality. And you will find just as much distorted thinking in the Elephant camp as the Donkey camp.

And very little, by the way, over in the Ron Paul camp...

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:47 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

"obscene profits" are healthy , it encourages other companies to enter into that industry. Profits promotes competition and job growth. What I know isn't healthy is capture regulations that make it harder for a start up to get into that field.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:01 | Link to Comment flacorps
flacorps's picture

I think there are three types of high margin situations. One is first mover advantage. If you get cold fusion working to power a car, you're going to get a lot of money, at least until others can figure out how to make it work, and perhaps longer if your patent holds up.

The other legitimate situation is one where you've found a way to do what others don't want to. If you're the only guy (or one of only a few guys) who wants to go put out oil well fires, you get paid.

The illegitimate situation is where some modern day guild erects barriers to entry ... whether it is union membership requirements, training or whatever.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:06 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Agreed.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 00:57 | Link to Comment daxtonbrown
daxtonbrown's picture

What people never look at is how many losers it might take to get one obscene profit. I've been part of about ten startups, one with obscene profits (but I thought I was going to get killed). Two or three ho-hums and 4 losers.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 06:46 | Link to Comment Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

There are two types of profit: legitimately earned and ill-gotten.

The problem is America's economy and bigger employers, got most of their profits by ill-gotten gains. 

Defense contractors using propaganda to put fear in the people about terrorism to score government contracts (whose workers are on the take).  Big banks and investment houses committing massive amounts of fraud in housing and the stock market.  Multinationals using slave labor in Indonesia and China while destroying their environment, and not paying workers back at home while abusing the laws in a COMMUNIST COUNTRY.

Not all profit is beneficial.  If that was the case, heroin drug sales would go towards GDP (it might via the CIA and Afghanistan).

 

 

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:47 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

All of what you describe has been allowed to happen by our govt.

Minimum wage laws and unions push jobs overseas. It's not slave labor. There are legitimate companies in India and elsewhere providing services to US based companies because of cheaper labor. It's not the practices of these other countries that make them attractive but rather the US govt regulations which make it so.

Remember, corporate management is incentivized to make profits for it's shareholders. More profits, more incentives. If they are breaking laws to achieve it, then you are correct, ie supporting politicians for favorable treatment and I agree that defense contractors and banks have benefited but most big companies have not.

If the government was run by fair minded and ethical people, we wouldn't have as many of these issues. They can be influenced by $$$ and they are.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:00 | Link to Comment surf0766
surf0766's picture

Ropn Paul isn't running. Give up. I did years ago.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:52 | Link to Comment Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

So, we're going to get a workers paradise then?  I pretend to work and they pretend to pay me?  Never any goods on the shelves, and lines to infinity to purchase what isn't there?  At lease we will all be equal -- equally poor that is.  

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 08:39 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

The main question was to expose if those delegates thought profits were bad. You are trying to distort it by qualifiers between "reasonable" and obscene". BS buddy and fail.

A simple question was asked about that exposed that democrat delegates economic thoughts. Without even prodding those delegates, those liberals gave answers that were outrageous and show how ignorant they are.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:09 | Link to Comment SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

The level of ignorance with regard to economics among the typical American is both astounding and terrifying.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:21 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

yep, that's State education (cough) for you

when you think loony-leftie Paul Krugman is typical of Economics Professors in the US and Europe is it any wonder even qualified students have learnt zip

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 01:21 | Link to Comment Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Krugman's textbooks are standard fare for undergraduate economics courses in many countries.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 04:50 | Link to Comment Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

How much 'obscene' profit for the sale of such texbooks does Krugman make? 

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 13:26 | Link to Comment monad
monad's picture

Zero. He's a commie. They just gave him a trophy and a pay off and he's good.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:43 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Sheeeit homestyle. You ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:57 | Link to Comment Meesohaawnee
Meesohaawnee's picture

oh god.. Dead on.. Most of them are lappin up this biden speech

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:25 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Bidens on?...I'm outta here...I gotta see this...ROTFL!!!

////////////////

ROTFLMAO!!!...way to go Joe, what day is it? What century?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJINYXR5ems&feature=player_embedded

He's always good for a laugh...just a heartbeat away from fucking reality.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:59 | Link to Comment Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

All you really have to do is ask people if they are better off then they were 4 years ago.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 02:03 | Link to Comment Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You're right, but what does your average rest of the world citizen know?  Less the American average citizen knows, I guarantee you that.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 09:45 | Link to Comment ONO47
ONO47's picture

Three words "WE ARE DOOMED"

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:11 | Link to Comment Hedgetard55
Hedgetard55's picture

Three tenets of liberalism.

 

1. There is a free lunch.

2. You can get something for nothing.

3. Money grows on trees.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:20 | Link to Comment Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

You forgot this - it is always for the children

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:25 | Link to Comment Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

You mean - It's always for the children and my children are better and smarter than yours.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 08:43 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Yep, a very good one for them because liberals are nothing but adults that never grew up.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:24 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

4 ) It's okay for me but it's not okay for you.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:33 | Link to Comment r00t61
r00t61's picture

5. We are all equal.  Though some of us are more equal than others.

6. You are required to love everyone.  Otherwise, we will kill you.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:26 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Just as it should be.

Liberals are the cultural-biological descendants of hunter-gatherers.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:27 | Link to Comment LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture

 

 

A liberal lunch = Order anything you want and the guy behind you has to pay for it.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:27 | Link to Comment adr
adr's picture

Minorities can't be racist

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:45 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Unless they're white.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:34 | Link to Comment flacon
flacon's picture

4. The playing field needs to be level with the lowest common denominator so that we can all be equal.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:11 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yes We Can!!!

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 01:40 | Link to Comment Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

I find that liberals are unwilling to accept the realities of economic scarcity and the profit motive, as such they are essentially mentally incompetent and unfit to be judged. Basically, they believe that emotion trumps reason and reality, even those who admit that their (political-)economic philosophies are doomed to failure prefer to keep them than accept that life is unfair. Discussing any political or economic matter with a liberal will almost inevitably devolve into you being accused of unbounded greed and selfishness for declining to support the socialization (nationalization) of any given industry, and being told you are essentially an evil person, who deserves to die, for preferring economic reality to smug sentimentalism. So much for that compassion and humanism bullshit. It bears repeating, with enough prodding, some WILL admit that their economic philosophies are a joke, but literally do not care, because in the meantime we could be 'helping more poor people'; that this is tantamount to the oldest most elementary critique of socialism - that equality is found at the least common denominator - is of course incomprehensible to the liberal mind.

PS: I have been told by a real, adult human being that, and I quote, "there will always be [more rich] people to tax somewhere" as the reason why the UK's National Health Services cannot and will not ever run out of money.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:49 | Link to Comment spooz
spooz's picture

Corporate "profits" that are subsidized by crony capitalist paybacks should be looked at.  

My ideal economy has little or no regulation and low taxes on small, local/regional businesses who don't contract with multinationals.  I would reserve tight regulation and high taxes for multinationals.  Any repatriation of profits would be taxed at the highest rate.  

So, yeah, I don't throw all corporations into the same basket.  Propagandists do.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:12 | Link to Comment Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

The best argument against a democracy is a 3 minute converstaion with the average voter

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:30 | Link to Comment Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

People need to start attributing quotations:

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.” ~ Winston Churchill
Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:45 | Link to Comment LongBallsShortBrains
LongBallsShortBrains's picture

.

"People need to start attributing quotations". ~Temporalist

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:08 | Link to Comment Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

That's why we have a republic and a bill of rights.  Oh, I forgot.  NDAA got rid of those pesky rights.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:12 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Cue the progressives running through here with their hair on fire...lol.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:18 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

fkin funny nmewn.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:28 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

nothing quite like a progressive with their hair aflame to cheer up your day

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:33 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...I'm glad rational heads prevailed on the OWS crap.

No one...right, left or in between wants anyone to gain their wealth through bribes, extortion or cronyism. The "legality" of it is the issue.

That will always come from DC, the money for bribes in order to get "legal", comes from Wall Street and lobbyists. They have no army.

We do ;-)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:13 | Link to Comment Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 

 

07-03-12 | STATISM- Part I - Charles Hugh Smith - MACRO ANALYTICS 

Statism Is Slavery 

Hello Mr. Obama, the Global Community will see through your jobs speech in just less than an hour. Carry on.

 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:54 | Link to Comment prains
prains's picture

well you'll be ecstatic when Robama/Ryden take over to do the real heavy lifting

that is more crony capital siphoned off to the 20 other players waiting in the wings for their turn at the trough

GOOD RUCK

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:13 | Link to Comment Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

I have publicly stated my election vote on ZH. I have also declared, this is about central planning wet dreams. Look up my prior post.

 

Clowns to the left of me,

Jokers to the right, here I am,

Stuck in the middle with you,

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:30 | Link to Comment Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

"I am Bananamerican, and I approve this message"

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:15 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

FIRST, START WITH THE MILITARY IND COMPLEX AND END ALL CORPORATE WELFARE.PERIOD.

 

Then we can talk

 

 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:33 | Link to Comment 11th_hour
11th_hour's picture

Hey Dick,

 

They have no interest without an event they can captialize on.  Nice try, though.

 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:33 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

No way you are dick's ghost. Dick loves to bail out failure.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:17 | Link to Comment JohnKozac
JohnKozac's picture

Bankers took home record profits and bonuses for the 3 years Barry was in control. So he is not completely against corp profits...only selectively against it.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:47 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Well, somebody got some hopey changey then.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:17 | Link to Comment Obadiah
Obadiah's picture

unfuckingbelievable

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:33 | Link to Comment James
James's picture

Having ran a former business for over three decades I stand in humble awe to those still trying to make it work.

I won't do it any more.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:24 | Link to Comment shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

I feel ya...

I SOLD MY BUSINESS TO SOMEONE WHO WAS DUMBER THAN ME.

Thanks be he was there. I would hate to be in it these last few years.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:22 | Link to Comment Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

Not sure if I should laugh or cry.

Actually, this is fucking depressing. I live in a country where there are so many stupid people and all of them can vote.

 

 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:33 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

you're correct all the stupid people (sheeple?) vote

the ones with common sense, the 50% that do not vote because it "changes nothing", leaves plenty of room for hope

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:36 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Hope? Of what? I still see over 7 billion "unfunded liabilities" walking around either way.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:52 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

you mean $7 Trillion not Billion yes?

as long as we're stupid enough to sponsor Govt, by paying tax, we get what we pay for

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:53 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

No, I mean 7 billion. Last time I checked this is roughly where the human population was. Try to keep up ZG.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:08 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

The funny thing about governemnt debt math is we can hit clear on the calculator.

The best and brightest minds of europe just said so. The other great thing is, when they said it, it means taxation doesn't matter ;-)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:23 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

LoP  -  sorry for my mis-understanding, didn't spot the liabilities were "walking" around

in order to fund them we need all the productive wealth we have in the pockets of productive people so that as much of it is re-invested on a rolling basis back into the next productive project

that's where the parasite Govt puts a spanner in the works. It sucks (wealth). Compound that year after year especially as by 'virtue' of being a monopoly it has no control over itself and so grows like a cancer eating its host ...which is precisely where we are now

the sooner we stop it the better because if we don't as mentiomned Govt will continue to run riot until we crash and burn (see Greece)

 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:49 | Link to Comment WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

 I live in a country where there are so many stupid people and all of them can vote.

Like it makes any difference.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:18 | Link to Comment CharlesH
CharlesH's picture

My political analysis is that barak obama is going to do a 2nd term.

If not and romney comes in, shit is going to hit the fan out of proportions.

My bets are on Obama.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:22 | Link to Comment SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

Then you are about as intelligent as the good folk Peter was interviewing...

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:23 | Link to Comment Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

All of those Dems are right!  Apple must die they make to much in profit and should be giving away iPads and iPhones for free because the people need them and deserve them.  It is only fair! 

Disney makes way too much money they should allow people to visit the park for free and give everyone free videos and Mickey and Minnie dolls!  Children can't be happy without Goofy and Cinderella!

Justin Beiber and Kanye make way too much money they should be singing for birthday parties for free and writing songs for anyone that has a child on welfare!  Cap that profitable ass!

Eveyone should have a Prius or Volt for free they need to bailout the car companies even more so that their prices can be slashed!  Forward!

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:29 | Link to Comment adr
adr's picture

Funny how the most liberal corporations are the ones making the most obscene profits.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:36 | Link to Comment Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

OMG you just reminded me that the fashion industry makes WAY too much profit and they should definitely be giving away free designer clothes like Donna Karan and Ralph Lauren, Gucci, Dolce & Gabbana.

Hollywood makes hideous amounts of money they don't need such palatial homes in the hills of Hollywood they should be turned into assisted living facilities and halfway homes and low income housing and celebrities should be making breakfast for poor people every morning!

And clearly health care companies, pharma and insurance companies should never make a profit ever because medical care should be free for all!

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:49 | Link to Comment LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture

 

 

And pay  the least in taxes (My Seinfeld waiver not that there's anything wrong with that just pointing that out)

 

GE Filed 57,000-Page Tax Return, Paid No Taxes on $14 Billion in Profits

 

Report: 26 U.S. Companies Not Paying Federal Income Tax

 

vs

Taxation Hero: ExxonMobil Pays $3 In Taxes For Every $1 In Profit

 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:26 | Link to Comment moonstears
moonstears's picture

Van Jones at the beginning of the clip, there? Didn't he sing "Brown eyed Girl"?/sarc

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/09/06/van_jones_resigns.html

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:37 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Van Jones...confirmed communist...at the DNC.

Shocking ;-)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:51 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Nothing shocking, both President Obumma and Hilary Clinton are zombie drone students of Saul Alinsky (confirmed communist)

bwankers love, love, love these leftie loons as puppets.. nobody wracks up debt faster to reach their end-game of ransacking whole nations 

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:39 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

True.

From 10T to 16T in less than four years. Its a record.

At least he appointed a blue ribbon panel to tell us what the problems were and then ignore it, that was helpful ;-)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:44 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

By 2016 that number will be 24t.... and that's before any wars ,either in the works or soon to be ,are calculated into the debt.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 05:01 | Link to Comment Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

What ever happenend to Amerikan exceptionalism?  With a more concerted effort to create GDP10 this figure could top 50T even 100T :/

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:24 | Link to Comment adr
adr's picture

Is a profit based on fake sales and accounting tricks really a profit??? Executives make make most of their wealth through grants of stock, not from the profits of the corporations they represent.

Most non-public corporations I work with are barely making a profit. Since there is no reason for them to fake books to goose stock, they actually have to make payroll from the incoming cash flow.

Input cost for my company's materials has been rising for the past six years, but we haven't been able to increase our wholesale price at all. In fact every retailer has been hammering us for more margin.

Try to find any profit in this scenario. Base manufacturing cost of $6.85 with a wholesale cost of $8.90 with 6% retailer chargeback and 4% to the sales rep. Retail is $20. The profit from the sale of the product all goes to the giant publicly traded corporation.

Best case we make about a $1.25 gross profit per item. From that we need to pay warehouse costs, rent, payroll, benefits, taxes, and finance new inventory. After all that we end up with almost nothing.

And I get to watch corporations like Amazon that lose money on every product hit all time highs with a 300+ P/E after announcing a new line of money losing products.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 22:34 | Link to Comment shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Yabut...

Amazon's losses are on high volume...

Hence the 300 P/E.  :)

 

If it says ".com" some chump will buy it.

It may become the next facebook.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:24 | Link to Comment nah
nah's picture

ibm is gay

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:24 | Link to Comment AgShaman
AgShaman's picture

It's painful to see the truth....that the National Conventions of both parties are riddled with idiots and losers.

This country needs a purging.....since stupid has certainly taken over, and rules the landscape for sure.

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