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Precious Metal Margin Warfare Jumps The Pacific, As Shanghai Hikes Gold Margins For Second Time In A Month, Prepares To Crush Silver
Wondering why gold dropped by almost $100 today? Wonder no more: today the Shanghai Gold Exchange lifted gold margins for forward contracts the second time this month to 12% beginning on Friday, in a move that is starting to resemble the CME's vendetta with silver back from May. Should we expect 3 more SGE margin hikes in the next 2 weeks? Or will the CME rightfully accept the baton and do everything in its power to dent the parabolic rise in the alternative reserve currency? We are cautiously looking at what the CME will do today and will advise readers. In the meantime, here is what else happened in Shanghai: "China’s main precious metals exchange will also widen daily trading limits for those gold contracts to 9 percent, up from 7 percent, the SGE said on its website on Tuesday. The contracts to be affected include Au(T+D), Au(T+N1) and Au(T+N2). This is the second time the exchange has raised collateral requirements on gold forward contracts this year — both times in August — as international gold prices hit a series of record highs over the past few weeks, boosted by a flight to safety on worries over a stalling U.S. recovery and crippling sovereign debt in the euro zone. Shanghai Gold T+D contract lost half a percent to 387.8 yuan per gram, or $1,884.47 an ounce, down from an intraday high of 391.9 yuan when the market opened."
More from Reuters:
“Gold prices on the global market have been rallying strongly and at an increasingly faster pace. The margin hike is a pre-emptive move in case prices crashed and caused great volatility in the market,” said Li Ning, an analyst at Shanghai CIFCO Futures.
At a time of market turmoil, exchanges routinely increase the margin requirements to cover the risk of a default.
With the SGE’s margin requirement exceeding its daily trade limit, the hike seems aimed at squeezing some speculative froth out from the market, some traders said.
The Shanghai Futures Exchange could raise margins on its gold futures contract soon too, said Li.
The new margin would require an additional 490.4 million yuan ($76.6 million) to be posted to the exchange.
Trading volume on the most popular gold forward contract hit a three-month high of 26,032 grams on Aug. 11, and eased to just shy of 20,000 grams on Tuesday as the exchange finished the afternoon session. The average volume so far this month stood at 14,999 grams, compared to a daily average of 9,138 grams in 2010.
The exchange also said it was closely eyeing silver contract price movements and would consider raising trading margins, transaction fees or costs of rolling over forward contracts should volatility persist.
At least the cause is now known. And when the effect from the SGE has been priced in and diluted, it will then be the turn of the CME. Unless of course it is much sooner.
That said, to all those who have been looking for a dip in gold, here it is.
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Gold (and its price in FRNs), is our only frame of reference.
The massive margin increase announced is demonstrating exactly what these paper markets always have been. They understate the real world value of the physical product by valuing it using margin opinion, not real physical supply and demand. If the markets get out of whack because too many players move away from holding "American Style" paper wealth and want the real thing,,,,,,, then the paper markets adjust by reverting to cash settlement using the "understated opinion price".
None of the recent commentary touches on the fact that the shorts also face the same huge margin increases. In reality, the move is a precursor to forcing cash settlement if needed. Once a crisis threatens to shut down paper trading, cash settlement liquidation is enforced. This is why the shorts need to carry 150%++ MARGIN to make sure of cash settlement (not physical settlement). The fact that the longs must also have the same margin does make the weaker players fold their hand. But still, many longs will stay for the end.
This is very much what is coming for our gold market, worldwide. Yes, just as in palladium (if it fails), long paper gold traders will smile at their big cash gains (if they can get them). But their smiles will fade as they notice how their $1,000 / ounce settlement only represented the "margin opinion" of real physical value. In the aftermath of a paper gold market shutdown they will buy a 1/10 ounce for that $1,000, if lucky!
In today's world, it's the physical traders that hold all the cards and will gain the most wealth for their future. The value is there today for anyone that want's it. The paper markets we know and love will die before they can ever equal the real value that's coming for gold.
To close:
The true physical gold demand in our world today is poorly understood and poorly calculated. While physical trades are documented as well as possible, little weight is given to the countless investors that own gold using the international margin/deposit paper markets. Yes, most of these players don't have the "here - with - all" to make good on their gold purchases by taking delivery 100%. Mostly they play the "gold price" in a paper game rigged against their ever seeing full value.
But if even 10% of this ---"I own real gold in paper form but haven't paid for it yet and have the cash to do it "--- demand was to surface outside the futures related arena? This demand would take all the supply available in an "adjusted" post paper gold world. Only then will the real demand equation be understood. Only then will physical gold trade for it's fair value as a world currency outside official paper gold control. That day is coming for the owners of real gold.
You see,,,,,, any excess supply would mostly flow to filling those that have contracted for it and have something the world cannot live without! OIL!
In time the real value of gold will be represented by real demand not subject to currency supply. Not the unlimited paper supply that values gold for political ends.
To reword Another's strange post: One gold is coming my friends, one gold!
+$55,000
Quite right Flore,
Many PM bulls thought the Shenghai Gold Exchange was bullish, but some knew better. If it operates like the COMEX and the LBMA, then it's just another paper / futures exchange to siphon demand from physical today for physical tomorrow! We can see this evolve now, we can see over the horizon from a lofty view. Margin hikes gets the small players out of the way and sets the stage for a big brawl, no? Eventually, all longs will be in strong hands and all shorts will be paper-ponzi backed commercials...and the lions will battle. Small dogs would do better to escape with the food already in their belly, indeed. Buy physical and get out of the way! If oil bids gold directly, without going through a paper currency, then that my friend is our Ice9 moment. Paper currency (all paper!) is revealed as false and commerce will all but stop! If commerce stalls, where will tomorrow's physical come from? Gold is the transmission of wealth through time, it gets its value from the past! Currency and commercial promises derive its value from the future! Government paper, commercial paper, stocks, bonds, derivatives, MBS, CDOs, etc all depend on a functioning currency market, on a functioning commercial market.
After the US occupation, why was the Iraqi Dinar gold-backed? Funny, you'll never here that question come from the MSM lips to little Timmah.
IFester
"Eventually, all longs will be in strong hands and all shorts will be paper-ponzi backed commercials...and the lions will battle."
I wonder. Eventually, after all the hikes, paper gold/speculating in the Comex+LBMA will be for the rich and powerful. They drive up the prices for physical too. So gold will be only for the rich in any case. Then the Big Boys will start asking delivery, bit by bit, and so see all the physical walking in. They build of their paper gold and so all the physical will be theirs, leaving all the small people with no gold and hence powerless.
Someone's been walking the Trail.
The shorts get hit for more fiat just like the longs right? So raising margins cuts the throats of both parties right?
Are you new here? THe big shorts (JPM and friends) have unlimited cash
our cash
Actually not. What JPM does have is better margin requirements. They are allowed (by virtue of their board seat on the CME), 100x the margin of a normal trader.
But the problem with margin is it works both ways. So nice when it's going your way, and 100x worse when it isn't.
The massive short position is going to become untenable at a point.
Right. So does Shanghai raising margin requirements hurt the US bullion banks and if so are they doing it on purpose?
They definitely are waging a low level currency war, and control over PM prices is one of the theaters. However, they don't want an all out collapse. The game for China is to just keep boomeranging our worthless fiat for real stuff (like gold and silver), and to keep prices of PMs from going through the roof. They have less of an incentive to price controls on PMs, because they can let the western bullion banks do that for them. Keeping the game going for a long time works to their advantage, because they are trading worthless paper for gold and silver. Eventually they'll have enough gold to back their currency as an alternate reserve (their reserves are at a paltry 3% compared to 78% for us in gold).
The Chinese markets will simply funnel more demand into the markets making them harder to manipulate. Further, they can get their people to participate simply by reporting their metal news differently. They could report "Gold drops by 2% in after hours trading," or ignore the (manufactured) volatility and say "Gold up 0.5% again". I've noticed that socialist and communist countries actually do care about the common person being informed, whereas the Western countries are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. It's an odd thing to admit that the Western countries are now preying on their constituency (I'm sure this was always the case, but somehow today there is more contrast at least for me).
It does seem that most of the manipulation (i.e. the so-called waterfall declines, as we saw at the open/middle/close of the LBMA today), occurs during LBMA hours. Then the PMs rise in the Asian markets as Chinese swoop in for some bargains. By the open the next day we are often at net zero, which gives us high volatilaty, and often a sideways market.
I've noticed this whipsaw effect also! When is the JP Morgue gonna realize that the (price) saw is getting too hot to hold onto?
How many more Venezuelas have to demand their bullion be returned to them to empty the London vaults?
Well said. That is why we have $1,500,000,000,000,000.00 derivatives that eventually must be unwound to cleanse the system. All it takes is the default of one counterparty to bring the whole house of cards down. LTCM X 1000! Tuco
They will not let it happen. Banks will be zombies for many years (= forever) like in Japan. But alas, Japan still exists.
Keep the margin hikes going and we will have buyers abandon the futures market. Am I correct in thinking that for someone to create a short contract someone else has to take the opposite side ? If I am correct then the shorting capability will diminish as buyers abandon the futures market.
Just raise the margin's to 100% and lets get the game over with.
My margin is 100%...because all I would ever consider buying is a physical hunk of the stuff.
The fact that people out there who only put up 12% of the cost of a hypothetical commodity can then "Sell" their position (which really represents gold that does not exsist) and this can effect the price - either on the upside or the downside...just seems fucking ridiculous to me.
There ought to be two prices for Gold listed each day...One that lists the price for a physical delivery of the actual metal...and what that lists the price for some make-believe shit in which there are 100 times more contracts than there is actual material to back them up...and which said contracts will never be executed to take delivery on....meaning that the "gold" that they represent will NEVER have to materialize...(and thank God...because it does not exsist)
So...Fuck the CME and Shangai Exhange...and all the the fucktards who trade
this "paper gold" shit (paper gold...what the fuck is that anyway?) ...hahahaha (I am really not this pissed....and why should I be....I still have the same amount of gold I had earlier today when it was $1917.00 an ounce - I just think its funny to act like a badass on the "internets" - bitchez
I've said this before....It's akin to having earnest money deposits serve as "comparables" for real estate appraisals. Those who rely on appraisals (banks and state govts) would never allow it. Why? Because the appraised value of your home would be absurdly easy to manipulate.
Speculation is one thing, but true "hedging" is a valuable instrument for mining companies and other entities in the physical gold market. Therefore the paper markets should not be outlawed. Tuco
LOL. Reading the Chinese news today shows that the retail stores are out of physical gold and have long lists of buyers.
Link please
Page two of original article translated:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout...
Original link (In Mandarin)
http://biz.cn.yahoo.com/ypen/20110823/544453_2.html
Fuck margin. Do not trade or buy on margin. You don't want some fat-assed, sweaty, weak-handed bitch calling you about margin calls or forced redemptions. So tell fatty to fuck off. Only buy what you can afford and no more. If only the corrupt mother fuckers in D.C. would learn this lesson. Instead they funnel trillions to banks a la TARP and the Fed window. To hell with this bullshit system.
when a margin call reaches you, close your account...never meet a margin call...you are on the
wrong side of a market...why send good money after bad? keep that good money for another
day.
Jesse Livermore
You don't need safe haven assets like gold anymore that's why the price has plummeted. US indicies up 3%+, everything's peachy now. Ignore any bad economic news, that's the solution now.
Bwahahahaha! What a comedian!
and the world of debt calls their bluff...
Margins to 100% => futures to irrelevance. Just do it!
that,s exactly how futures started in agricultur. You sell 60% of your crops at 100%!
Ben Davies, @Hinde Capital and a gold bull, doesn't think the gold margin hikes are out of line, given recent movement and prices, so doesn't necessarily see it as price suppression here. There are already people getting wiped out here on these moves (and it's not RoboTrader). His comments do not apply to silver margin hikes, which remain to be seen.
Been looking for another dip, so this looks like it...
Meantime: Rickards says the Venezuela repatriation of gold will deleverage it.... Kazakhstan says it will keep it's gold mined there....
I've been enjoying those interviews a great deal. I do Kingworld news (Rickards has a good one there today), but also been finding those Turk interviews on the Max Keiser site.
Agree generally with both these guys.
Serious question: What is happening vis-a-vis the banks and the 100 tons of gold they have to now find? Are there any stories from the field that anyone has heard? It would be interesting to know some anecdotal evidence of the strain (or lack thereof) that this request is causing (I'm thinking it has to be massive).
London is busy looking under the piles of paper for the missing grams, even as we speak(type)! :>D
Asian physical offtake will crush the paper exchanges within 2 years.
"Badges, we don't got to show you no stinkin' badges!"
The recent revelations of SEC criminality and the S&P change and of course MS and BAC, seems to indicate that the CFTC will NEVER impose position limits since the corruption is now so thoroughly imbred that only a revolution could stop it. I firmly expected a free market price for the PMs at least by 2012; now I know that it make take at least 5 years. Oh well; my PMs are for my grandchildren, not for me.
Oh, and don't forget CME PM OPEX is the day after tomorrow. Funny how that works, isn't it?
Precisely, this is soooo predictable. They always take the prices down for G&S before OPEX. No big deal, next week, we'll be flying high again.
Yep!
<<<<< PM sell-off actually funded Dow rally?
<<<<< PM sell-off had nothing to do with today's rally. It was due to great economic news.
<<<<<PM sell-off had nothing to do with today's rally, PPT hard at work.
I come in from the shop, the homepage loads, and find a gift certificate for discounted Gold and Silver. Sweet!
Meh. It is no longer in anyone's interest to the price of gold do anything but quickly rise. The exchanges will do steady margin raises every 100 points up. But the governments and central banks all need an asset to balance their debt. That is why they want gold at its correct price.
As the central banks have unlimited cash, how can there ever be a gold "price" which is too high for them? If I could print as I please I could sell my gold at $300 / oz in the 1990ies and then buy it back at $1800 / oz in 2011. There would be no loss for me. In the end I still get my ounce of gold.
There is a gold price that is too low to act as an asset to balance the debt they spawned their cash from. The jig is up. They do this every few decades. They need to vet the system with gold again.
CME's 22% gold margin increase on August 10th caused gold to fall for 2 1/2 days before it resumed its uptrend. It'll be interesting to see how long this downturn will be. I say it depends on Ben on August 26th.
The thing with the CME is that they say they assess the margin requirements everyday, and since they also use a measure of standard deviation to calculate the dollar value of margin, and considering that the standard deviation was close to 80 the other day(it was 40 when they made the 1st hike), they should have raised it already, several times. In fact the SD has not been here for many many years, currently at 89, so they are holding back for some reason, either because the short accounts are well capitalized or there just is not that much speculative interest, maybe its all physical.
WHAT IS THIS?!!! GREECE?!
WHY CAN'T WE GET A ISLAND TO GO WITH IT?!
CME BIRD OF PREY OF THE PORT BOW!
RED ALERT!
ALL POWER TO SHIELDS & FORWARD DEFLECTORS!
They call Gold a bubble and seek to reign it in. Meanwhile morons keep bidding US Treasuries to the Moon for the right to get a 2% return (in paper) over the next 10 years. Makes sense to me.
At least tulips yielded beautiful flowers that were a delight to the eye.
Holding US Treasuries which yield a nominal 2% interest, when the US dollar is currently depreciating by 5 to 8% annually, is a sucker's bet that only a complete sheeple fool would make --- but there are sadly no lack of them to make such bets.
And you can eat tulip bulbs. Cook them like onions.
Actually, I believe that they are poisonous, aren't they?
Not nearly as poisonous as the evaporating paper promises of governments masquerading as honest money, however.
http://alloveralbany.com/archive/2008/05/09/tulips-really-are-edible-sort-of
Tulip - It's what's for dinner... if you don't have any gold, silver, or spam.
I'll still take semi-poisonous tulips over beets, those revolting vegetable spawns of Satan, any day.
Greenspan was quoted today in Bloomberg:
“Gold, unlike all other commodities, is a currency,” he said. “And the major thrust in the demand for gold is not for jewelry. It’s not for anything other than an escape from what is perceived to be a fiat money system, paper money, that seems to be deteriorating.”
Wow.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-23/greenspan-says-the-euro-is-breaking-down-may-harm-stock-prices.html
Anyone else ever think that Greenspan started this shit on purpose?
He used to hang with Rand. One version of things has him infiltrating the Fed to destroy it.
A modern Fransisco d'Anconia aka the "Maestro".
IFester
Yes, I have had that theory for quite a few years now.
He will have destroyed a lot of other things along with the FED.
Greenspan works for Paulson: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/2782593/...
Paulson is the largest holder of GLD: http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1035674/000103567411000003/pco063011.txt
Definition of "talking your book": http://www.investorwords.com/8436/talking_my_book.html
It all fits.
I have a fantasy where Alan Greenspan, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton all jump off the Golden Gate Bridge hand in hand! Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
What happens next? What are they wearing? Would this make a good script for one of those viewing booth porn things with the holes that they have in them so they can pass notes?
What would a sweet young lady such as you know about pr0n booths & Glory Holes? :>D
Deviance is one of my areas of specialization. Seriously. But I prolly do have too much fun wid it.
It was time for a correction and this news just helped it along. One more day like today and I will add more physical. They can slow the train down but they cannot stop it.
Tyler, how high are the margin requirements for silver for the moment?
Can't find it anywhere....
$21,600 for new and $16,000 to maintain 5000 oz. silver
Gold is $7,425 and $5500 per 100oz..... Curious. Way more spendy to trade silver.
http://www.ccstrade.com/futures/GC/margin/
Thx!
Beaten down to make it easier to fill Venezuela's order?
If we go full conspiracy theory on this, more likely smacked down so K-Daffy gets less mercenary per ounce.
Or price went up as they scrambled to gather physical for Hugo.
Price went down from selling Libyan gold.
Or price went down as the rebels looted the palace and found lots of goldplated AKs to pawn
shanghai surprise bitchez!
I am so looking forward to a silver crush.
James Debevec at Minyanville headlines his article "Indicator Warns of 93% Collapse in Silver's Purchasing Power"
He compares Silver values to Realestate values. Yeah, he does.
http://tinyurl.com/3mp7j6h
Yeah, I believe that silver will drop to a mere fraction of its production cost --- right after angels start flying out of my asshole.
That could never happen to me, on account of how tight my butthole is.
Once the Bernankster is finished cornholing all of us, NOBODY'S butthole is going to be very tight.
I just choked. Good one! And it takes a lot to choke a coon -- ever seen some o' that stuff in garbage cans after a few days of fermentation. Euwww!
It might not be quite so bad if the Bernankster would at least have the decency to use some lube before plunging it in --- but, you know, he gets so caught up in all those "animal spirits" that he loses all self-control:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_azimCSzqNnc/SaQjgtWXfII/AAAAAAAAAgM/twLnYavzT2...
Good thing that he only has a pindick --- you can tell that from his lisp.
Who cares about the long term relationship between silver and real estate? Real estate is dead for the next 25 years. The currency is being debased right now.
"Wondering why gold dropped by almost $100 today?" --- Why? Because it did. Nobody needs a reason, that's just a waste of time. Looking for reason why something that is up 500% drops 2% is a fool's game.
Correct, just "noise"!
And the possibly of raised margins?
What's so strange about some chickenshit traders taking profits on a huge run-up? I'd have done the same but can't /won't do that with my physical. That explains the paper metal markets: quick and dirty. It's a trader's world out there. I don't take no truck in it myself.
i'm actually pumped. BUYING MOAR WITH BOTH HANDS!
TYVM!!!
What...if there is EVER a correction or...."gasp".....a down day...it has to be some sinister plot to take gold down.
Gold has had a huge run. It is all over the media and CNBC touts. A lot of jackoffs and their wife/sister are buying at the interim top. This is definitely not the top, but it needs to have a rest. The suckers need to get beat to a pulp again. This may be a top for a while.
I saw on my facebook page a post about gold today. There has never been anything on my FB page about money up until now with the exception of GE not paying tax. It that is not a contrary signal I don't know what is.
My mom is talking about gold. That is the ultimate signal. She only talks about things when they are on the nightly news.
I have been a physical gold owner for going on seven years. I have been watching the market for 8 years. These corrections have come and gone.
Very sensible post and I agree. However, there really is a regular, fairly predictable pattern where the price goes down just before options expiration. We don't need to know "why" to see that this one happens, too. Like your post, just the facts, Jack!
Did I blink or is this the first mention of good ol' Op-Ex hocus pocus on this thread?
I gave you "Thumbs Up" because I found your post to be very sensible, BUT....................
1. WTF are you doing on Facebook?
2. WTF are you doing on Facebook?
Also, and I think this is important:
3. WTF are you doing on Facebook?
I got a letter from Chase saying credit limit on my credit card is lowered. Could it be because I frequently use the card to by coins from apmex, and they dont like it? I always pay the balance off every month
Interesting.
JPM is the APMEX bank so I do not think that is reason for credit limit decrease. How dare you pay off your card each month depriving JPM from making interest out of funds they created out of thin air!
Citi bank did the same shit to me. Then charged me a brand new 60 dollar charge I refused to pay (new fee for paying off the card every month). I called and asked them to fuck them selves. They removed the charge, I closed the account. They can take their $27,500 credit limit and shove it where only Ben goes.
In this day and age, that move prolly hurt you more than them. Your so-called credit rating (BS, yeah, I know) suffered the reduction of "available credit". What a scam that you get hurt for doing the right thing!
I still have an 828 Rocks.
JPM is the APMEX bank so I do not think that is reason for credit limit decrease. How dare you pay off your card each month depriving JPM from making interest out of funds they created out of thin air!
The APR on that card is a whopping 17.5% I think. So there's no way I'd keep a balance there. Plus I have to pay it off so that I can make new purchases. APMEX allows customers to order by check or bank transfer (for 3% off) but I consider that a tremendous hassle: going to the bank or going to the post office, tracking the mail, the agony of an extra week of waiting... So I decide to let the credit card make that 3%. These SOBs are not satisfied with the $50 annual fee and 3% transaction, i guess
Of course I can order with debit card, but that's for gainesville coins. These people typically ask for $50 less than APMEX, however, they ship coins 7-10 days after you place the order
These dips are just a low tide. Ever try to stop a high tide from coming in?
This could be the ocean receding just before the tsunami rolls in.
Maybe people started selling gold after reading the last week's worth of ZH comments
This constant belief that eveything is gamed is really getting tired. Even Martin Armstrong who has gigawatts more cred thatn anyone here says these people are fucking idiots and have no goddamned idea what they are doing.
It does make sense from a business perspective to limit your liability and ensure trades get completed properly.
Shithead Zero dead Spec mortgaging their wives and kids does not make a safe trade people after a 25 % percent lift in 2 weeks.
Lock down the fucking specs, let's let gold and silver go back from the trader's abyss to being a safe haven.
They are NOT a safe haven right now. They are a sucker's bet and many weak hands just got crushed.
disclosure - I sold my tradeable gold yesterday just like my 49 dollar silver. I bought 32 dollar silver 4 days later.
I hate trading but that is the way the traders have made this bet
Oh ain't you the smart guy. I just hang onto my shit so i don't have ta smoke the commission pipe. Eh?
...and I suppose nobody knows how to play chess either. Pretty presumptuous.
Nice to see you show up after gold has run 300 dollars higher Mogul. How easy for you to make the call Mr Rearview Mirror.
As you can see, nobody believes your bullshit around here.
My #1 safe haven play. 2 FRN's deposited in BAC at ZIRP.
This seems like a coincidence to me (yes I know, there are no coincidences). Gold, when looked at from a technical perspective, was overbought, by just about any measure. Despite that, there are the arguments for a new higher trend for gold, which while compelling, will require a bit more confirmation.
So I'm thinking this is just a reasonable move to damp a little of the too fast, too soon speculative behavior of gold.
Note, I'm a huge gold and silver bull and believe the bull has a long way to run, especially when looked at from the standpoint of the fiscal properties of all the Western economies, their balance sheets, and political structures, as well as their short term bouncing from crisis to crisis, solving nothing (but somehow providing just enough to mollify the moronic momo crowds).
Really, I hope that the COMEX raises silver margins mercilessly, because you can't raise them about 100%, and once they get to 50%, then what is the fucking point of trading through the COMEX? 2 times leverage? At a certain point, if the COMEX is truly interested in price suppression (which I'd maintain they are), they will have to eliminate all margins on PM, or leave some last single bullet in the gun, which is never used (I've maintained that silver has 1 bullet left for the COMEX, after which it's out of control).
I'm praying for a few more good buying opportunities, but I have a feeling this one will be very short lived.
And please, all you traders out there, stop buying fucking SLV and GLD. The difference in premium for something like PSLV and PHYS is substantial, however, you don't want to get caught out when the musical chairs stop (and who knows, Chavez may be stopping the one for GOLD, which will infect SILVER too).
And to all you gold and silver top calling fucking idiots: Do you really think these currencies and balance sheets are going anywhere but into the toilet? As Roy Batty would say: "Wake up, time to die."
Great post as always, Fiat2Zero.
You are the Roundup to the anti-gold trolls' weeds of disinformation and lies.
flat2zero
that a big 10-4
The gold and silver top calling fucking idiots have never gone to the St Louis Fed website and seen the M1 monetary base chart, it is absolutely vertical. Every week or so I check it out and it scares the shit out of me. Bottom line, Gold and silver to the moon.
We got Shanghaied! Someone's gonna pay for this. Fuck with my tradition will ya! I will beat your yellow asses bloody, I shit you not. Out here on the fringe, we do things the ol fashioned way. Capiche?
Hate on them Chicoms all you want (I do), but don't fuck with those people in real life. Those fuckers are some of the most severely repressed/overly agressive parasites I've ever dealt with.
Market interference is just one of the reasons why I hate modern governments. They pick winners and losers and have no regard for consequences to real folks. That is not supposed to be the purpose of government.
Stiff upper lip goldbugs. If someone told me last month my substantial horde could be sold at $1861 an ounce, I would have been delighted. After a solid to weeks of 1%+ advances, what did you expect.
This reeks of intrique, throwing all they have into making Jackson Hole more than just a conference held in a hurricane.
If you are a trader, then trade. If you are an investor, everything is as expected. Gold will be "crushed" and right back where it was a month or so later, just like in May. The difference is they will have used up more of their finite number of margin hikes.
PBoC lookin to buy some gold today? ;-)
That's my first thought too. China's just like the rest of us who are hoping PMs will stay "cheap" a little while longer so we can accumulate more. Of course, we can't order our own personal exchanges to crush speculator demand the way they can...
Anybody that has followed this market knows of the impending OPEX this Thursday. This is nothing new. Look for the people that were waiting for a dip to step in and take more physical off the market.
http://gold.goldprice.org/2011/02/gold-and-silver-options-expiry.html
Like clockwork...Will they ever learn T'g'?
OPportunity EXtravaganza
Oopsy!
All this over a traditional barbaric relic?
I'm shocked! SHOCKED!
That would be "barbarous" relic, and Keynes was referring to the gold standard, not the metal. Soon enough, the gold paper markets will be the relic.
thought for the day
any poster that gives long winded post about gold and silver claiming expert status
ask where were you at 325 gold and 4.25 silver
if they squibble and started trading the golds on margin and using their little lines and macd..
then just fade um.. as they are late to the dance . and try to run the music with blatther
who gives a rats what a 30 year old diaper has to say.
Fair enough. I think the same thing sometimes. Just looking at some rolls of Silver Eagles that I bought at under $8 per coin, a few slabbed (numismatic) gold coins I bought in the mid 1990s, and 3 X 100oz silver bars at just over $600 per bar. The numismatic stuff is going on the auction block soon, and the 100oz bars are going to auction at the very second I think the market is topping -- maybe a few years to go? The silver Eagles, decent silver coins, and the generic gold will go into deep storage for the duration of the "troubles". The junk silver is on hand for daily purchases in the turmoil. Hopefully I have prepared sufficiently not to have to tap the wealth that has been set aside to come out the other side reasonably intact.
is anyone else concerned with the 1830 open? anyone?
not concerened for a second.
what is this concern crap.. do you know nothing aboiut the fi9nancial system and the great debt overhang.
or are you a trader of paper junk, and pretend to buy gold
buy my gold infant...
diaper mouth ,, and how much 300 gold and 400 silver are you clinging on to .
patience infant...
so you speak through several layers of diapers
a swaddling little league person sounding out the moves of the big boys , kick dirt , adjust belt spit adda boy
now how much 400 silver did you say you had .. now run along and join the folks looking for a partner at the last of the music dance ,
im too old for this
so no 300 gold 400 silver , i bet your younger lol
in your late fiftys or early 60s still a young whippersnapper
allright fucker...grant me your wisdom on any trade
dont trade for a living . fools game
bought in gold at 300 silver at 4,25 ,, just watch the action
have a gold stock or three ,, do aokay .. into hui at 40 , left the pile at 400,
just read and chuckle
even sinclair said to keep your 550 gold not trade have you done better than that in your little trading cha ching as gold hit 1830..
all meat no potatoes
hurry up asshole!!! i want numbers!!!
where are we now, in your opinion..in the precious metals market?
just starting. long way to go.
This is all confirmation for the long side of gold and silver. Chill the fuck out.
300 400 what?
300 dollar gold 4,00 dollar silver . mr quick as a cat
idiots
so no 300 gold or 4,25 silver
just fess up lol
i now think your in the late 30's big mouth little brain
Ya'll have been a scream! Awesome!
I have a theory... the Chinese will want to drive down the paper price of PMs temporarily.... this is their opportunity to get in BIG.
The US$ is finished... and the Chinese know it... they are also buying PMs directly (mainly gold) direct from miners and bypassing the exchanges.
the effects of margin hikes are over exaggerated..
usually, the effects are temporary because margin hikes affect short positions as well as long positions.
an orderly ascent is in everyone's best interest. corrections accomplish this.
if you know when to expect the monthly 'adjustment' (see turd & harvey), you can actually move ahead if you can anticipate the dips. i now see it as a monthly fire sale at my local bullion dealer.
thanks harv, thanks turd, thanks max, thanks santa, thanks gata, thanks peter, thanks dan, thanks bill..... !
I have been very satisifed with the way the gold and silver has behaved. I am not going to say "I told you so" but I will say that the powers that be will make damn sure that Silver will NEVER break 50 and Gold cannot be allowed past 2000.
Pondering further, I don't know yet what will need to happen before those chains are broken. I see in my mind masses of stupid lemmings buying paper shares and being told that they should now go out and eat steak and lobster every night; all is well etc etc etc.
It's very.. scary to see last week, the week before that and the developing numbers this week validates the decisions I made to sell Gold and back off the silver with a bit of profit taking.
Anytime the prices are driven down, there are increasing numbers of.... greedy bottom feeders with ever larger amounts of cash ready to buy the dip. Buy low, sell high.
Also one final note.
They Powers that be who set these rates, will have to consider breaking up the ounces into grams. That will shatter the current market into one that has many very small sized products as there are stars in the sky. Theoratically they will never again have to worry about physical gram demand.
EARTHQUAKE MY ASS, I WAS SITTING OUTSIDE ON 10TH AVENUE AND 62ND STREET WHEN IT HIT, AND I THOUGHT IT WAS AN UNDERGROUND AMTRACK TRAIN GOING BY BENEATH 11TH AVENUE.
when i heard the 'big news' i realized what i thought had been an odd underground train ( since i knew none ran directly beneath 10th) was the earthquake.
screw that, gimme a 7.0 any day.
all that glisters is not gold
often have you heard that told
many a man his life hath sold
but my outside to behold
gilded tombs do worms enfold
with a grieving heart the prince takes hasty leave of portia, who is happy to see him go, saying, "A gentle riddance."
Silver has been tame compared to everything else. Why even mention Silver in the report unless you have a vendetta against it.
Folks:
While many here own physical, the focus on the paper manipulation whenever Gold goes down detracts from trading it effectively.
The paper market exists because a vast majority DO NOT want to have the hassles of owning physical. Their long position in Gold is just a part of their portfolio; nothing more nothing less. Like those who are short paper gold, those who are long paper gold are also nothing but speculators.
You can not make jewelry out of paper gold; nor can you bury paper gold in your backyard. If there is truly a short supply of physical gold, the paper market will react to it. As more people lose trust in the paper market, they will demand physical gold. And when that happens the now real physical demand will show up in the paper-market.
Blaming margin hikes for fall in the price of paper gold is frankly quite ridiculous. The margin on GC is less than 5%. So anyone who is forced to liquidate because of margin hikes was levered 20:1 and clearly a speculator who has no interest in owning physical using that money. So if the price of gold goes down because the stops of these speculators get hit, then it is just a part of the price discovery process; it went parabolic on the back of the same speculators.
So when you are trading paper, do not treat as physical. Paper is paper, a means to speculate.