This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Psssst France: Here Is Why You May Want To Cool It With The Britain Bashing - The UK's 950% Debt To GDP

Tyler Durden's picture





 

While certainly humorous, entertaining and very, very childish, the recent war of words between France and Britain has the potential to become the worst thing to ever happen to Europe. Actually, make that the world and modern civilization. Why? Because while we sympathize with England, and are stunned by the immature petulant response from France and its head banker Christian Noyer to the threat of an imminent S&P downgrade of its overblown AAA rating, the truth is that France is actually 100% correct in telling the world to shift its attention from France and to Britain. So why is this bad. Because as the chart below shows, if there is anything the global financial system needs, is for the rating agencies, bond vigilantes, and lastly, general public itself, to realize that the UK's consolidated debt (non-financial, financial, government and household) to GDP is... just under 1000%. That's right: the UK debt, when one adds to its more tenable sovereign debt tranche all the other debt carried on UK books (and thus making the transfer of private debt to the public balance sheet impossible), is nearly ten times greater than the country's GDP. To call that "game over" is an insult to game overs everywhere. So here's the bottom line: France should quietly and happily accept a downgrade, because the worst that could happen would be a few big French banks collapsing, and that's it. If, on the other hand, the UK becomes the center of attention (recall this is the same UK that allows unlimited rehypothecation of worthless assets, and the same UK that unleashed the juggernaut known as AIG-FP's Joe Cassano - after all there is a reason why the UK has 600% its GDP in financial liabilities - financial innovation always goes there where it is least regulated), then this island, which far more so than the US is the true center of the global banking ponzi scheme, will suddenly find itself at the mercy of the market. At that point the only question is whether the vigilantes will dare to take down the UK, as said take down will result in an implosion in the very fabric of modern finance, much more so than what even a full collapse of France could ever achieve, or if due to the certain Mutual Assured Destruction that would follow a coordinated UK onslaught, the market will simply very quietly proceed to ignore the elephant in the room.

Source: Anthony B. Sanders testimony to Congress, December 15, 2011

 


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:46 | Link to Comment Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

The Queen Is Dead

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:57 | Link to Comment kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz5IFl7uCis -

She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:24 | Link to Comment The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

 

If the Brits go to war with the French all they have to do to utterly obliterate them is cut off their food supply and feed them their's.

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:49 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I seem to recall making this exact point about the U.K.  9 days ago, citing the same chart, and having the blind defenders and loyalists of the British Dump of Toxicity go batshit crazy in response:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/and-scene-europe-agrees-disagree-next-summ...


 

Assuming Haver Analytics, which I believe is a semi-independent affiliate of Morgan Stanley, has their data set in good shape, total debt (governmental, household, financial, non-financial) as a % of GDP is far and away the highest in the UK out of any developed nation in the world, at just under 1000%.

In  the developed world asylum of debt addicts, the UK is 'Chief Crazy Pills', full on lobotomy (and a huge reason why is their cesspool, gangrenous financial sector, which is a plague and scar upon the land):

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/4edb70a56bb3f7b433000030/debt.png

 

And let me state, in anticipation of what I assume may be part of [the response of blind defenders and deflectors of the U.K. and objective, arithmetic-derived observations regarding the U.K.'s morbid financial condition], that in the final analysis, if one assumes that this debt gets repaid, even if by devalued fiat and therefore as just a mere technicality and not truly in substance, there won't be any difference between how financial sector debt and governmental debt is prepped and treated, as the financial sector debt will all be nationalized anyways (thus ultimately becoming governmental debt).

 

And the point about the financial sludge representing such a major % of U.K. debt shouldn't be narrowly construed to the woes of the U.K. and its extremely large, inefficient & incredibly subsidized financial sector, either, because the U.S. is literally walking in the shadow footsteps of the U.K. (the central fractional bankers who plot U.K. and U.S. monetary policy work from the exact same playbook, and in fact, are nepotistic and incestuous, to a large degree) - it all stems from the successes of Nathan Mayer Rothschild literally buying Britain, and then using it to deeply penetrate the colonies way back when.

The U.S. is literally 40 to 50 years behind the U.K., because the fractional reserve conjurer/sorcerer bankers control the money supply in both England and the U.S. (look at how the UK lost its domestic manufacturing companies, and went to a FIRE economy, with finance, in all of its wealth draining variations, being the foundation of their now collapsing house of cards, while at the same time deeply capturing the legislators and regulators in England, and thus sucking the taxpayers to the edge of death, and crowding out productive, efficient investment --- just like the United States).

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:38 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Indeed TIS. Given that the UK is the home of fractional reserve malarky, it makes sense that they are the most fractionally reserved and the most un-reservedly insane nation.

Of course, Paris is in-seine, but that is a whole other story. What this story does is re-cast the spotlight on why was the UK buying so much US debt off late?

And back when in 1999, why did Brown sell the gold? So cheap?

I think there are too many hidden currents to make linear assumptions about GB OR the GBP for that matter. It's been kept out of the Euro for a reason.

ori

/this-that-and-the-4th-reich/

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 07:20 | Link to Comment philipat
philipat's picture

Depends on the definition of "Financial" debt. In either definition, it doessn't include CDS and other derivatives exposure. Most of which have, at the very least, counterparties on both sides in NY. When "Net" becomes "Nyet" the SHTF. So don't be so fucking cute, the financial markets will sink, or swim, together.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 07:33 | Link to Comment fourchan
fourchan's picture

other than being next to each other, what do france and germany have in common anyway?

these buddy buddy pictures with merkel and sarko always leave me with a big WTF?

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 17:15 | Link to Comment tooktheredpill
tooktheredpill's picture

not all debt is equal though - length of maturity has to be taken into account.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 08:25 | Link to Comment BobRocket
BobRocket's picture

 If you repeat a lie often enough it will become the truth (unless you can do the math)

 

 'why did Brown sell the gold? So cheap?'

 

He got ~16 barrels of brent crude for every ounce he sold.

 

How many barrels of brent crude could you buy today with one ounce of gold, surprise surprise it turns out to be ~16

 

You might notice that you require 7 times more dollars to buy an ounce of gold today than you did in 99, gold is worth what it always was, the dollar is now worth shit.

 

 

 

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 07:24 | Link to Comment NuYawkFrankie
NuYawkFrankie's picture

Re The U.S. is literally 40 to 50 years behind the U.K.

Hmmmm.... that's a howler!  The USA & UK are co-joined, they operate as one - the Bonnie & Clyde of high finance.

Make no mistake, when the UK goes down, the US follows - and vica versa

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 11:40 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I think you either misinterpreted my statement or that I wasn't clear enough in terms of what I wrote.

By writing that "[t]he U.S. is literally 40 to 50 years behind the U.K.," it was my intent to state that we in the U.S. are walking in the footsteps of England, and that one can literally predict the future of the U.S. (in terms of composition of economy by sector, debt levels, income distribution, and even media trends [e.g. With outright gossip comprising the bulk of the news consumed]) by studying England now.

The U.K. went from the greatest power on earth for a short spell, to a major industrialized nation with a still disproportionately large MIC, to a de-industrialized FIRE economy with a large but trending smaller MIC (as the U.S. and NATO provided umbrella of protection), to what is now a banking/financial sector top heavy capsizing vessel, with the ill financial health of limitless bank/financial sector bailouts and propping up of that sector crowding out other segments of the economy, and imposing brutal externalities upon taxpayers and other businesses, with a social entitlement system that literally can not be sustained given the demographics of the nation and the extremely low level of labor force participation and youth unemployment.

Hence, the U.K. trends ever closer to rich man-poor man society, in a more pronounced way than since the Dicken's "worst of times, best of times."

The U.S. is now about where the U.K. was back in the 1940's, pre-WWII, economically (obviously, the massive war machine the U.S. had assembled, but which will now be disassembled as it's no longer sustainable, is the one critical difference between the U.S. and U.K., given the U.S.'s status as protectorate of much of the oil producing Middle East).

Ultimately, the U.S. is on the same trajectory as the U.K., and for the same reasons - a massively subsidized and net-net wealth draining financial/banking sector that cripples the rest of the economy and absolutely punishes taxpayers and private consumption.

Germany chose not to subsidize its banking and financial services sector to nearly the same degree as the U.K. or U.S., and thus enabled market forces to create the conditions to allow the other segments of its economy to not become surcharged and crowded out, nor taxpayers to be anally raped on a constant basis to bail out cancerous financial/banking actors due its ability to prevent deep capture of German legislative and regulatory bodies by fractional reserve banking interests (Germany has moved towards a much more balanced economy, adapting to many of the challenges raised by a globally integrated economy with cheap labor abundant in eastern europe, south america and China, while ensuring that a good chunk of its high wage and advanced fabrication/production methods that center around many highly technical and even proprietary information stays within Germany).

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 16:37 | Link to Comment Hive Raid
Hive Raid's picture

Well congratulations, you get the Golden Coxucker Award. It's not exactly a knighthood, but knights are a little light in the gauntlets these days. I now annoint you: Sir Golden Coxucker. And if you stop me again whilst I'm walking you'll be next in line for a Nobel. Now scram!

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:50 | Link to Comment Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Ponzi collapses do not care if the UK is in the EU or not, everything and everyone is interconnected these days, so they are all fucked anyway. They are arguing who should pay the bar tab in the Titanic at this stage!

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 04:48 | Link to Comment Boeing Boy
Boeing Boy's picture

Duck gizzard salad?  I don't think so.  For all you Americans, it is very easy to buy healthy salads and be served wonderful seasonal vegetables in any British restaurant.  I always bring vitamin pills when touring America.  French food is stuck in the middle ages, still using cheap cuts of meat and cooking it for days, or, worse still lake fish.  

My recommend would be all things Italian.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:39 | Link to Comment vxpatel
vxpatel's picture

marmite cluster bombs - bitchez.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 02:26 | Link to Comment jaffa
jaffa's picture

The debt is an obligation owed by one party to a second party, the creditor, usually this refers to assets granted by the creditor to the debtor, but the term can also be used metaphorically to cover moral obligations and other interactions not based on economic value. Thanks.
Regards,
Scottsdale Real Estate

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:26 | Link to Comment New Normalist
New Normalist's picture

Oh, has the world changed or "has England" changed?

Mon, 04/16/2012 - 01:45 | Link to Comment jaffa
jaffa's picture

The debt obligation is considered secured, if creditors have recourse to the assets of the company on a proprietary basis or otherwise ahead of general claims against the company. Unsecured debt comprises financial obligations, where creditors do not have recourse to the assets of the borrower to satisfy their claims. Thanks.
Regards,
fitness clubs in mississauga

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:18 | Link to Comment NumNutt
NumNutt's picture

This is off topic but did anyone else just hear that the crazy ass leader of North Korea just died?  Can't wait to see what his son has in mind for that country....

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:47 | Link to Comment alex_g
alex_g's picture

bullish

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:11 | Link to Comment The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

 

Winning!!!

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:48 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

Talking about winning;

Public Policy Polling: Paul 23% Romney 20% Gingrich 14%!

http://www.dailypaul.com/194317/p-paul-23-romney-20-gingrich-14

Breaking news - Paul Passes Gingirich in New Hampshire at 21% ! ! ! !

http://www.dailypaul.com/194329/breaking-news-paul-passes-gingirich-in-new-hampshire-at-21

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 02:14 | Link to Comment natty light
natty light's picture

Donation site surpasses $4 Million goal. As of right now at $4,019,513.86  

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 08:35 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

I pray God he's got effective security.

If Ron Paul becomes prez he'll have more would-be assassins than JFK, MLK, Jesus, Rabin and every other would-be peace-maker combined.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 10:12 | Link to Comment Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

ONLY if he does not do what TPTB want him to.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 04:05 | Link to Comment dolly madison
dolly madison's picture

Was "that crazy ass leader of North Korea" really crazy, or do they just say that about any leader that goes against the ponzi.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:40 | Link to Comment vxpatel
vxpatel's picture

my crazy is less crazy than your insanity?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 08:36 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

Both.

Haven't you seen Team America?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 10:55 | Link to Comment Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

I don't think Team America was a documentary.  I am pretty sure it was a puppet show.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 12:15 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

IS THIS TRUE???

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 15:48 | Link to Comment vxpatel
vxpatel's picture

depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is....

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:21 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Fucking Limeys.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 10:32 | Link to Comment fredquimby
fredquimby's picture

Aussie twat

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 10:33 | Link to Comment NotSpartacus
NotSpartacus's picture

+1 If you mean the 0.0001% 

-1 If you don't

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:17 | Link to Comment He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

"The Queen Is Dead"

Nonsense, she and all her kin will move back to Germany and take all Anglos and Saxons with them and leave that floating pile of smelly sh*t at the mercy of Picts and Sharks. heheh

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:04 | Link to Comment old naughty
old naughty's picture

He-WC,

so you are saying UK is kept out of the EU so it can become a dump-site for debts, with no reserve...?

Mon, 12/26/2011 - 14:12 | Link to Comment DrunkenMonkey
DrunkenMonkey's picture

Well it is the fastest place to discharge debts in bankruptcy proceedings at 12 months, currently

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:04 | Link to Comment maxcody
maxcody's picture

Big difference Britian can Print money the French can not.  Yes the food in

France is better but the Germans have the best wheat Beer.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:09 | Link to Comment vipobviously
vipobviously's picture

Queen has no clothes on/naked,

Ugg Guess your version was better

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:17 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

That's some scary beyond-zombie shit!

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 03:23 | Link to Comment The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

"The Queen is Dead"...............

 

Hey, I'm pretty sure Elton's still alive, man.

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:11 | Link to Comment sharpe
sharpe's picture

These are interesting points, but miss the main point. Rating agencies are looking at government debt here. The UK government has a far longer duration on its bonds than other states, which means it will require much funding over the next few years than other nations. And unlike France it can print money which means it can default at its own leisure.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 08:39 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

I thought by now we'd pretty much established that financial debts are government debts, or will be made so rather than have the precious share/bond holders take a hit.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 07:43 | Link to Comment Quintus
Quintus's picture

Check this out.  'Noyer' translates as a noun to 'Nut' in English (A Walnut specifically) and as a verb to 'Sink' or 'Drown'.

Could a lunatic in charge of a sinking economy possibly be named any more appropriately?

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:47 | Link to Comment JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

And there you have it.  Once again the Brits lead the world in mass destruction.

This is very sad really when once considers the global empire they once were.

Take a very good look America.  Here is our future.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:50 | Link to Comment bill1102inf
bill1102inf's picture

Except America has more intrinsic value than most of the world.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:50 | Link to Comment kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

It's just math.  Credit/debt money loaned into existence with interest.  Repent.  The end is near.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:52 | Link to Comment gangland
gangland's picture

 

 

  (             )
 `--(_   _)--'
      Y-Y
     /@@\
     /     \
      `--'.\                     ,
        |   `.__________/)

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:13 | Link to Comment Cursive
Cursive's picture

The text only deer in headlights.  Classic.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:08 | Link to Comment d_senti
d_senti's picture

WilliamBanzai's work has suffered in quality but increased in humor, it seems. Good stuff.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:53 | Link to Comment nuinut
nuinut's picture

And you think Noyer, with positions at both the ECB and the BIS as well as heading the Banque de France didn't know all this already?

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:54 | Link to Comment Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Actually, yes.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:21 | Link to Comment nuinut
nuinut's picture

Yes, he knew?

I'd be surprised if he didn't.

Noyer has been an integral part of the euro rollout for over a decade. Some context for those who do not know who he is can be found here:"The Gold Man" (not Goldman) at the BIS, as well as a different perspective on what it is exactly that he is a part of the quotes from Noyer are down the page a little, but the preceding text gives context.

Considering both who he is and what he certainly knows, I'd say there's a very good chance he knows exactly what's going on and what he's doing.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:24 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Ever heard the term, "useful idiot"?

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:34 | Link to Comment nuinut
nuinut's picture

For whom and in what fashion do you believe Noyer to be a "useful idiot?"

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:37 | Link to Comment YawningChasm
YawningChasm's picture

I think he's talking about MervK mate, BoE cheif and a member of the ECB Council - like every other EU central bank chief

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:40 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

He is a tool of people with names like Rothschild and Soros.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 06:24 | Link to Comment ConfederateH
ConfederateH's picture

Hey Blondie, does FOFOA know that you're still posting here?  Judging from his recent tirades about ZH it's pretty clear that ZH contributors are personna non grata over at his blog.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:54 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Wait, what? You mean debt is not a national asset? ;-)

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:51 | Link to Comment lewy14
lewy14's picture

Britain appears to be - to a first order - a giant fixed income hedge fund. Kinda like Iceland was, actually.

So. I know it's not the house style in this instance but let's look at this issue dispassionately for a moment. Let's look at each debt component according to the cash flows that service it.

Government, household, non-financial - these all seem to be reasonably sized (or no more unreasonable than their peers). Further, the government debt is denominated entirely in sterling, as is (I'm guessing) most of the household and non-fin corporate debt. (Less sure about that latter). So no special reason to call it out on these grounds.

Now - all that financial debt - presumably there are in fact assets on the other side of the balance sheet, which is servicing that financial debt. Sort of. For now. Maybe.

How crappy are those assets? What's it holding? And further - in what currencies? In other words, what currency regions will massive debt deflation be exported to in the case of a run on Britain Capital Partners LLC?

Personally I'm more interested in this angle than the "omg so big!" thing that Tyler went with here, but whatever.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 06:44 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

A lot of those Liabilities exist within the UK on BANK Balance Sheets and the so-called "Assets" acting as collateral are in Australia, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Cyprus, USA. The City was recycling Chinese and other funds through London to Russian Oligarchs (ABN AMRO) and all sorts of rubbish in the USA through subs of RBS and HSBC and Barclays etc. So it is not actually UK Citizens' Debt so much as Banking Debt located in London or Irish SIVs with no benefit to the British taxpayer. London is not actually part of the UK - it is an Onshore/Offshore Tax Haven for funk money and the Bumbling Brown took it all onto the taxpayer sheet because he was rolled over by the Bankers just like Philip Snowden in 1931

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:51 | Link to Comment Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

National past time as it turns out..........

well now you know where Blythe learned her trade..... Bullshit and lies fucking people over since the stone age..... of which the second coming is not so far away...

Limey scum, limey scum,

I throw a bomb and still they come 

Limey scum limey scum ...... chorus from an old irish folk song

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:27 | Link to Comment vipobviously
vipobviously's picture

of course it is, at one time I had $60,000 saved in my "available credit" account. It was a "asset" until I lost my job and spent it, then it became a debt, without which the local econamy(NATION) would have suffered. it finally became a "write off" and dissapeared, and nobody realy lost anything because they just created those electronic zeros through fractional reserve banking(thin air.)

Clearly you can see how the nation benifited from this! I was creating jobs with that 60g's for a little while. Somebodys got to support the service industries and local boat marinas

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:55 | Link to Comment JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

The UK's GDP to debt is 950% when the financial sector is profitable.  What happens when the financial sector collapses?  Then the GDP to debt will be 2000%.  The UK may never recover from that.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 02:20 | Link to Comment 12ToothAssassin
12ToothAssassin's picture

Soooo... Youre implying that they CAN recover from 950%?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:11 | Link to Comment Bwahaha WAGFDSMB
Bwahaha WAGFDSMB's picture

If by "recover" you mean print.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 08:03 | Link to Comment spankfish
spankfish's picture

If by "recover" you mean print. Sir, ZH grammar rule: after the word "print" the word "bitchez" should appear.  Hate to be a grammar Nazi, but we have to keep up appearances.  For the children.  Oh, rule Britannia bitchez.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:18 | Link to Comment DogSlime
DogSlime's picture

Most of that debt is banks.  The banks will fail.  The UK couldn't possibly prop them up even if the public were OK with the idea.

...and with the multinational nature of banks these days, it's everyone's problem when those banks inevitably go bang - not just the UK's.

The banks just based themselves out of London because that's where the regulators had been most successfully neutered - they're not in the UK out of patriotism, that's for sure.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:56 | Link to Comment Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Meh.  One day Parliment will change the currency and order all tallies..er Pounds to be burned in the basement of Westminster.   Ironically, the fire could spread to the Parliment building resulting in a huge inferno and burn the government to the ground.  Surley UK could not survive such an outlandish series of events, could it?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:56 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Always remember, the 5th of November...

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 08:07 | Link to Comment spankfish
spankfish's picture

Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 10:22 | Link to Comment Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

Guy Fawkes day.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:56 | Link to Comment azusgm
azusgm's picture

Bring it on. The longer this festers, the worse the collapse will be.

Duck and cover, y'all.

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:56 | Link to Comment Solid
Solid's picture

There's no big deal with that debt. They'll just devalue their currency like everyone else.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:03 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

I doubt they could devalue further.

Consider one UKP was backed by ONE POUND of STERLING SILVER (.925 purity).

That amouts to around 13.5 TROY OUNCES OF PURE .999 SILVER.

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:33 | Link to Comment He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

Hey germanophobe village idiot, seems you do know your bastards rather well, dontcha?

and I quote: Why should the UK bail out those lazy bastards from France and Germany, who spend their time drinking wine, ouzo and beer, on endless vacations, with all welfare benefits, early retirement, free education....all at the expense of the UK taxpayer???

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/britain-about-scuttle-last-ditch-plan-z-eu...
boludes!

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:58 | Link to Comment Duffminster
Duffminster's picture

Tyler, that you've stated it means its already too late.  So, the only question is "where is your gold and silver?, in the UK, Federal Reserve, or in your vault?"  I hear the printing presses moving into nuclear mode.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:58 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

EURO KUNG POW!

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:00 | Link to Comment gangland
gangland's picture

i recommend high denomination notes

ZIMBABWE CASH CASTLE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yFnXAZgMA

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:19 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Lol.. nice one :)

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:33 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

In the end, it all boils down to sticks.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:13 | Link to Comment d_senti
d_senti's picture

Hey Jim, just curious, but you got any Fukushima updates? I wish you were a contributor btw.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:55 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Not much to update.  I try to read the Japanese press (in English), look at the earthquake and tropical storm maps, and generally stay on top of it.  They just announced that the site is in cold shutdown, which is of course nonsense, but it meets a self-imposed end of year deadline.  The technical notes from TEPCO continue to read like a horror show, with new problems, water leaks, etc. cropping up about twice a month.  Entropy is decaying the systems over time. 

Key point: No one has actually seen the reactor cores or the fuel.  Too radioactive for any human or bot.

It is in 'spray and pray' mode.  As long as nothing else goes wrong they can keep the fuel from re-heating at a cost of huge amounts of irradiated water.  The water treatment is going fairly poorly, but not a crisis at the moment.  But with hundreds of thousands of fuel rods in over a dozen damaged cores/pools, they are playing a very defensive game.  I read that they are on a 40-50 year time frame which means 'after we all retire'.

Fukushima City and smaller towns in the area are basically fucked.  It is a sad story and you can find out more if you like.  'Washing' over 100,000 houses...rice and soil turning up hot every month someplace else...schoolkids not gaining weight appropriately for their ages...it's disgusting how the central government just keeps ducking. 

As for Tokyo, it is worse than has been acknowledged but of course there's no way to know for sure.  A school just turned up a big roof tarp that was way over the limit last week, it had just been sitting on the grounds for months.  The incinerated sludge is being shoddily stored here and there with towns playing 'really hot potato' passing it back and forth.  There has been ocean and harbor contamination but very little measurement.

In sum, there was about a Chernobyl of acknowledged air and ocean release, with several more Chernobyl's worth in the onsite super-irradiated water.  That's where most of the radionuclides went, the cooling water.  It could still go very bad, so let's pray it doesn't.  Hundreds of failure pathways (things that could lead ot major new environmental release) are possible. 

What is truly sad is the human impact and the governmental neglect and refusal to be honest.  It all just reinforces the story here at ZH that we are not fully in control of the complex systems that we have devised, yet we continue to increase our reliance on these very systems.  Corruption makes the disasters more frequent while ensuring that the costs--er, fallout--only impact ordinary, hard working people.  Not the perps in charge.

thanks for the kind words....all the best this Holiday season.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:31 | Link to Comment Andre
Andre's picture

I was showing a new guy around at work. He had just come from Tokyo. The claim was, everything beyond 60 km was safe. Not that I believe this, but that (apparently) was the official line, and he believed it.

Take care, and thanks for not letting this die.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:32 | Link to Comment steelrules
steelrules's picture

Didn't you guys hear on NHK, the government says all 4 reactors are in cold shutdown and they are going to begin a plan to move people back in.

SICK FU*KS.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/movie/feature201112162004.html

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 04:14 | Link to Comment taxpayer102
taxpayer102's picture

NHK now saying :

Nearly 90 percent of Japan's nuclear reactors are expected to be offline soon.

This will happen when the No. 4 reactor at the Genkai nuclear power plant, the only operating reactor of the Kyushu Electric Power Company, is halted for a regular inspection later this month.

The Kansai Electric Power Company has halted 10 of its 11 reactors.

With the planned shutdown of the Genkai No. 4 reactor, 48 of Japan's 54 reactors will not be generating power.

Some of the idle reactors are now undergoing stress tests, a prerequisite for deciding whether to resume operation.

Others are waiting on a decision by the industry ministry's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency which is reviewing test results.

All nuclear reactors in Japan which are currently operating are scheduled to undergo regular inspection by next spring, at the latest.

If the present stalemate continues, the country could see all 54 nuclear reactors shut down.

Monday, December 19, 2011 07:58 +0900 (JST)

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:07 | Link to Comment Reptil
Reptil's picture

That's ok, it's not like there's a country full of healthy people working in a booming economy soon anyway.

It's not a "hard" or "soft" landing, it's an irradiated landing. The new model for 2012?

As for the UK, the only way to "solve" their problem, short term, is to export some of the pile toxic sludge. Or re-pool it, chop it up, distribute evenly and sell it to their own citizens. Just like Tepco.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 12:10 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Just another day on the radranch:

Contaminated water found in plant's tunnel

The operator of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says a large quantity of contaminated water was found in a tunnel below a building storing highly radioactive water.

The Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, is investigating how about 230 tons of water flowed into the tunnel.

TEPCO says a worker found the pool of water on Sunday. The water reportedly was about 50 centimeters to 3 meters deep throughout the 54-meter long tunnel.

The utility says the level of radiation at the surface of the water is 3 millisieverts per hour. It is just a fraction of the level of the highly radioactive water stored in the waste processing facility above.

TEPCO suspects that the radioactive water of the facility may have flowed into the tunnel and was diluted by groundwater.

The utility says the tunnel is not connected to the sea.

The discovery raises questions about TEPCO's inspection and management capabilities because the firm failed to notice the water in the tunnel after the waste processing facility was completed in April.

Monday, December 19, 2011 05:28 +0900 (JST)

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:38 | Link to Comment MsCreant
Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:29 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

The shadows are kinda weird as is the difference in her skin color from her neck to the terminator line.  Something  looks fake to me.  Was this done by the same govt. contractor that did Barry's BC?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 03:24 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 04:32 | Link to Comment Reptil
Reptil's picture

What has been seen, cannot be unseen.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 08:20 | Link to Comment spankfish
spankfish's picture

+1 for Merkel tits, - 1 for having to look at them.  Should have photoshoped in some nice big breasted beer garden madien boobs.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 22:59 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"after all there is a reason why the UK has 600% its GDP in financial liabilities - financial innovation always goes [] where it is least regulated..."

Stating the obvious.  And yet, the free market purist/no regulation crowd continues to gain strength and traction in the U.S. political debate.....

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:01 | Link to Comment Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Just where does the "no regulation" crowd demand that the government bail out those who fail?

We are waiting.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:13 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Those same geniuouses coined TBTF....

 

De reg = consolidation. Consolidation = Systematic Risk. Systematic Risk = TBTF.

 

Come on Tyler... 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:28 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Agree. De Reg was a total joke because it was started with total Fed and gov backing. They never would have plunked their money down without guarantees. They want their risks socialized but the profits de-reged. 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:43 | Link to Comment LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Nice try guys.

Now get back under your bridge.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:48 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

When you have nothing intelligent to say, say "now get back under your bridge."  Nicely done. 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:52 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

It's important because instead of "pure capitalism" they sold you crony capitalism, which is drifting fast to state-backed monopolies. Unchecked there will be no competition, no ability to start new businesses and wages/prices will be controlled as well as the choices on what to spend money on

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 08:55 | Link to Comment Green Leader
Green Leader's picture

I always read what you have to say--and pass it to friends.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:04 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Wow..

 

So of the hundreds of views, no one has yet clicked 'evil down red arrow' on tyler's post.

 

Herd mentality is alive and well, even on ZH.  

 

(Yeah I know, we're a better kind of sheep here... not like those *other* sheep. Baaaa! That was a sheep noise.. not france's credit rating...)

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 02:35 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

You could just exlain why you disagree?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 02:52 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Tyler implied that the 'no regs crowd' did not drive the culture of bailouts for private entities that we've been enduring.

 

I disagree with that position. I think they are one and the same 'crowd'. Whilst you could argue that it's the polies not the bankers that issue the bailouts, it is widely accepted here by Tyler and others that the polies are in the banker's pockets, so the logic breaks down.

 

Anyway.. regardless of that, my point in the above post was to draw attention to the massive 'positive' imbalance. This site is all about behavioural observations after all :)

 

Tyler's post is at best, worded ambiguously. So.. if it wasn't for some degree of hero worship/sheepism, it should not have received such resounding positive response. 25+ to -1 so far.  I'm not suggesting tyler isn't worthy of respect for all the work he's done, but I don't think that comment is going to earn a pulizter any time soon. Look at the normal distribution of +/-.. the herb blindly agrees with tyler.

 

On a site where everyone claims to be a rugged individulist, contrarian, 'f*ck the system', down with gov. anarchist, it amuses me to see the same 'me too' herd behaviour that is so frequently bemoaned here.

 

I was drawing attention that which I found amusing :) 

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 03:10 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Yeah fine, there are pre-polarised types here, just less of them.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:40 | Link to Comment Dismal Scientist
Dismal Scientist's picture

Fewer, not less.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 03:42 | Link to Comment Belarusian Bull
Belarusian Bull's picture

You can easily find Tyler's posts with as many minuses as pluses.

You have to understand, that agreeing with the owner of the site is the main reason people visit this particular site. So, seeing positive -\+ ratio on Tyler's posts is no brainer.

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:43 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

ROFL... too true :)

 

Thanks for the link :)

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:25 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Herd mentality is alive and well, even on ZH.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

And why should it not be present?

Most posters here are US citizens. US citizens have the passion of the group.

US citizens do not oppose behaviours, they oppose others behaving the same.

US citizens do not oppose herd mentality. They favour it.

They oppose others displaying herd mentality because in this US driven world, herd mentality is highly profitable.
So they want herd mentality for themselves and themselves only.

Nothing surprising, only US citizenism.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:50 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Uh-oh.. 

 

"When moving amongst the herd, be sure you maintain a face full of ass. Otherwise you're likely to be trampled."

 

One thing I learned about Americans, never talk national pride or politics if you want to be friends. It's just unpleasant... and yet some of the funniest US comedy is about national pride and politics... irony or conspiracy? You decide... <dun-dun-daaah!>

 

Man I have a lot of spare time this time of year...

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 03:38 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

De-reg --> financial expansion. Financial expancion --> Systemic Risk. Systemic Risk --> Find a Patsy. Find a Patsy --> MF Global. MF Global = daylight gangbang = Ass getting sorer by the day. 

Thank you, regulators. Thank you, hedgies. Thank you, banksters. Thank you, my representatives.

Cunts.

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:33 | Link to Comment illyia
illyia's picture

Does that not depend on whether your "no regulation" crowd has co-opted the T-Party in order to protect its profits (banksters need no damn regulation)? or whether the "no regulation" crowd are, in fact, Austrians who follow Rockwell/Paul, et al.

Eh?

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:44 | Link to Comment LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Stop trying to feed logic to trolls, it makes their heads explode and that's a mess even Billy Mayes couldn't clean.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:54 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

The pure unregulated free market rocks, as evidenced by history.  Example:  The slave trade created numerous jobs:

1) the shipbuilders who built the slave ships, including the iron workers who developed the chains in the hold;

2) the lumberjacks who cut down the trees to build the slave ships

3) the sailors/officers who sailed the free market ships to Africa;

4) the security personnel at the ports

5) the slave auctioneers

6) the bounty hunters who chased escaped slaves 

7) the whip manufacturers

Too bad the evil elected government fucked up the free market in slaves!  

Douchebag.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 02:30 | Link to Comment ctlaltDEL
ctlaltDEL's picture

Slave trade? You need to re-read Rand's philosophy.

And who signs off on their posts as Douchebag anyway?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 09:07 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

Are you genuinely that stupid?

'Free market' means exactly that - people are free to make their choices, on both sides of the trade... ie, slavery does not exist in a 'free market' system, because the slave is not free to make his/her choices.

And yes, we need a coercive monopoly (government) to ensure that free markets remain as predator-free as possible.... without the government becoming the main predator itself, which is what we have now.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 09:22 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Not easy to systematically distinguish predator from competitor.

 

Slaves were a reflection of a more free market. One group just had radically more bargaining power than another... and exherted it's will. There was no governance (regulation) over that mode of business. If you think both sides are more equal now, stop paying your taxes and see what happens. 

 

Alternatively, have a look at iraq. Even the international bodies that were supposed to prevent unilateral aggression lacked the ability to intervene. US forces killed thousands of civilians, yet the families of those lost have extremely limited recourse. None at all most of the time. US would not stand for that for it's own citizens, but thats because it doesn't have to.  

 

A contract, an equal obligation, is an artifical construct thats derived to make interactions more civil. It exists because of regulation only.

 

I'm not interested in the moral argment, just saying in a free market the stronger party sets the terms. Always has, always will. Regulation is supposed to temper this...  

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 12:14 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

No, usually it's fairly easy to distinguish a predator from a competitor. A competitor is someone I can attempt to out-compete on price, quality, or service. A predator is someone who puts a gun (figurative or literal) to my head and forces me to behave in ways that I otherwise wouldn't, on pain of various harms they themselves will inflict if I disobey.

And yes, the US government is a perfect example of predatory power. Well done. I see your time here has not been completely wasted.

As for the 'stronger party' setting the terms - no, in a free market, the terms are set mutually, with the power going to whichever party is less desperate to clinch the deal - which may or may not be the 'stronger' party. Failing mutual satisfaction the deal doesn't go ahead. But you are probably using 'stronger' here in an attempt to score points via equivocation. Tsk, tsk.

And, no, slaves were not 'a reflection of a more free market' any more than the mafia demanding 'protection money' are 'a reflection of a more free market'. They had absolutely no say in their slavery, no freedom to refuse the deal. Slavery is a reflection of coercive power, in this case the slavers and the governments that didn't recognize slaves as having the same rights as their owners.

Slavery was highly regulated, by the way. So are the finance industry and taxation today. Doesn't stop them being utterly predatory, though.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 18:37 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

I think you need to expand your horizons a little in regards to your definition. I'm going to ignore your condescension, as ZH is a welcome distraction from real work atm.

 

In a free market, if a dominant player is much larger than you, they will set the terms. You define this as predatory, I don't disagree, but companies and people are predators. At the most basic level we're all scrapping after a finite pool of resources.

 

You idealise that you can back out of a deal, or even turn it down. If the dominant player wants something, and has the resources to procure it, they will have it. You will not get a say, you're a littlejim, getting eaten by a biggerjim. The only reason you can resist a deal is because the government gave you a mechanism to do so. Why do you think lawless countries swarm with armed gangs? They lend power to individuals and allow them to negotiate with others. If you're not in a gang, you have nil power, so your side of any 'deal' is nil.

 

RE slaves, step back a bit. Look at it from a supranational level. Country A procured resources from Country B, and expended it as they saw fit. Yes, they had 'internal' regulations, but I doubt those regs. meant much to those being stolen from their homes, the regs weren't meant for them. Slaves were a commodity to be traded, their opinion mattered no more than that held by the cow being led to slaughter. A commodity has no bargaining power, no one cares what the cow thinks, it doesn't get a seat at the table. Not everyone gets a say, you're delusional if you think they do, regulations buy you a seat where you otherwise wouldn't have one. 

 

Mafia was indeed a reflection of the market. They collected resources and built power because of a poorly regulated market. As migrants they were isolated from the workforce and education, and the prohibition laws on drugs, alcohol and prostitution provided them with revenue. They used this to procure manpower and weapons. This gave them bargaining power.  Prohibition is an example of 'predatory' behaviour, it dictates in absolute terms, it is not the same as regulation.

Standover tactics reflected a lack of influence, a lack of effective regulation by law enforcement.

 

Look at mexico.. its a friggin shambles because of US policy. Lack of regulation once again, lending power to those that have the balls to take it. How do they pay ('coerce') their people? USDs. How do they arm their people? USDs. Where to the USDs come from? US citizens. Free market baby, prohibition and enforcement of social contracts have failed. 

 

A free market is NOT A UTOPIAN IDEAL.... Blind capitalism = spoils to the victor and no 'calling uncle'.... 

 

So many like you on ZH.. free market blah blah blah... Whats in the water...?

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 20:33 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

Good Lord. Where do I start. I'm not sure if you are genuinely making so many conflations because you really can't differentiate between meanings of words used in different contexts (leading to equivocation) or you are deliberately doing it to try to win your argument (ie, you're a troll). Given the clarity of your writing, and repeated twisting of other people's arguments to mean something they clearly had no intention of expressing, I have to believe the latter.

But, just in case you are debating in good faith, let me address a few of your points.

If by 'expand my horizons a little in regards to my definitions', I will have to twist the meanings of words out of all recognition to have any chance of winning a debate, I'll stick with my narrow horizons, thanks. And I think you'll find condescension begets condescension. Try reading your posts - you come across as unbearably smug.

In a free market, if a dominant player is much larger than you, they will set the terms. You define this as predatory, I don't disagree,..

What a twister you are! In my post, I state that terms are not set by the more dominant player - so how can I define that as predatory? So, for instance, say company 'A' is the 'dominant player' in broadband (we'll assume here that by dominant you mean they have the largest market share... or by 'dominant', do you mean they go around holding a gun to their customers' heads, forcing them to buy broadband from them?) I can say yea or nay to buying their broadband as I like. They can't force me to buy their broadband. Unless, of course, they have a monopoly... and how is that enforced? By government regulation.

As for the slaves, again, get it into your skulls that a 'free market' doesn't mean everyone can run around doing whatever they can get away with. It means they are free to conduct voluntary transactions. Slavery is not a voluntary transaction, ergo, it does not arise in a free-market system. And, yes, as I stated previously, we need a monopolist coecive power to ensure that transactions are voluntary. But that is not the same as willy-nilly 'regulation', the vast bulk of which is restricting what companies can or cannot do even within entirely voluntary transactions with clients.

As for Mexico - it's current drug-war problems are entirely a result of regulation - the regulations prohibiting recreational drugs. Get rid of the regulation, and the profits that arise from illegal trafficing disappear, as does the incentive to run around shooting competitors, who now enjow the protection of the law... and can't compete with big pharma, in any case.

Tue, 12/20/2011 - 02:08 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

hehehe.. I'm a troll am I?

 

I believe you replied to my post, unsolicited, and opened the conversation with an insult. Do you disagree?

 

I do this with good humour... it matters nothing to me what other commentors think, this is just entertainment. Sometimes I come across people with better views, and I learn. Other times, not so much... I am not married to my opinions, I'll argue either side, but I do depise dogma... of which there is plenty on this site.  

 

I never stoop to personal insults unless the other person does first, see my earlier comment about this being entertainment. You my friend, made it personal, review your first post.  I replied in kind, I don't really care either way is entertaining.

 

Smug is subjective measure, not qualitative, hardly a fitting rebuttal if we're having a gentlemans debate. (Yes I realise that was likely perceived as smug, but its still subjective :P). When I'm not trading am I writing, unfortunitely it leaves me with a diverse vocabulary, and a tendency to structure things formally. I make no claims to spelling.

 

"As for the slaves, again, get it into your skulls that a 'free market' doesn't mean everyone can run around doing whatever they can get away with. It means they are free to conduct voluntary transactions.

Yes, but that is not a free market. That is a regulated market. You seem to think that regulating a market 'just enough' makes it a free market.. a free market is free from regulation. The 'just enough' is a properly regulated market.

Without regulation preventing the consolidation of telcos you would have 1 provider in the US. You would have a choice, pay what they ask or forgo telecommunications. What's stop them demanding your first born? Regulation.

If a new provider sprung up, they would buy them up, lock them out, or price gauge. Monopolies that occur due to concentrated capital investment can only be broken up by government, not protected by government. The only reason you have more than 1 telco in the US is that the government broke up bell, and passed regulation that forced shared access to infrastructure. Don't kid yourself into thinking bell (or standard oil) would have split on it's own, and let competitors get a foothold. That's anti-capitalist...

 

Some facts:

- US DID NOT INVENT the concept of a 'free market'.

- US Founders DID NOT ENDORSE the concept of 'free market'. They were very sensible men.

- A perfect free market has *never* existed, just like perfect capitalism or perfect communism have *never* existed. All are dogmatic ideas, dangerous because engender hope whilst causing people chase the end of the rainbow... They cede power to the financially powerful. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_capitalism

 

I stand by my earlier assertion that in the absence of regulation, as I define a free market, the biggest and the baddest will win.

 

At least we can agree on the drugs analogy, if not the definitions of regulation, prohibition, and free market...

 

 

I dunno where this post is going so I guess it's over.

Tue, 12/20/2011 - 08:44 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

...I believe you replied to my post, unsolicited, and opened the conversation with an insult. Do you disagree?

Indeed I do disagree. I replied to LetThemEatRand's post with an insult. You then replied to my post unsolicited.

Let's see now... Lying about events? check. Twisting other people's arguments? check. Incessant straw-manning? check.

Yup. You're a Troll.

Tue, 12/20/2011 - 09:27 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Aren't you perky :) I'll put my troll hat on especially.

 

It appears you're right, I guess the I wasn't paying quite the scholarly level of attention to the commments that I thought I was. My lunch must have gotten the better of me.

 

Even still, your whining doesn't change the fact that your position is baseless, and you change the definition of your arguments to suit position, and you've offered nothing more than dogmatic opinion in everything you've submitted so far. Sorry, if my straw man offended your straw man.

 

Snuggle up with your flag and cry about how perfect free market capitalism would be if only everyone played fair, if only it wasnt for the banks, if only it wasn't for the politicians, if only it wasn't for all the people, and I'll go on doing my trolling thing.

 

 

Merry xmas and thanks for the laughs.

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:34 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

The bankers who are receiving the bailouts are part of -- indeed the leaders of -- the "no regulation" crowd.  N'est pas?  

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:46 | Link to Comment LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

I love the way you beat that strawman.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:49 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

You are more of a smiley face than a strawman.  But thanks.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:59 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

Tyler,

The no-enforcement of regulations crowd are the ones screaming for the bailout.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:05 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

The free market would never allow a corrupt entity like the federal reserve to exist.  I believe that we should vote out the corrupt government leaders of the Fed and replace them with private bankers.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:13 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Someone's gotta issue the paper....

 

Unless you go to a metals backed regime. In that instance though, power would vest where the resources lie, queue another round of world wars as everyone scrambles for the gold mines.

 

The metals crowd always conveniently forgets that the last 2k years of war and conquest were driven by securing PMs in order to control money supply...

 

I dunno what the answer is... but someone somewhere has got to push the button...

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:17 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

The sheep are all told to invest their nest egg prudently, put it in a bank...so some asshole who drives six Ferraris can find a way to lose it for you?

Bring back Glass Steagall.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:28 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

By purchasing more Ferraris, they are creating jobs. 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 01:08 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

$1.2M Rolls Royces autos create even more jobs.  Several people need to mine and refine the gold, kill the cows that form the leather, etc.  The more wealth is concrentrated at the top, the more opporutnity the rest of us have to serve them.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 05:24 | Link to Comment Reptil
Reptil's picture

They've been telling the sheeple straight, they really don't know what they're doing, but any connection between an economic deregulation and otoh bailouts and austerity is carefully avoided.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suZb9Z0b05I

Simple model, really; just seperate cause and effect with confusion, and put some time inbetween it. most sheeple would be too busy "keeping their head above water" anyway.
So "no one" really understands where the hell the failure to run an economy came from. Divert further attention by accentuating the "rich vs. poor" bullshit. AVOID at all cost accountabillity and DON'T mention corruption and incompetence, because sheeple might start thinking it all could've been avoided. Debt and bailouts are ACTS OF THE DIVINE.

But that realisation, that it's because of mismanagement is sinking in... slowly. It's going to be a total mess. Guess who'll profit?

 

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 07:47 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

I've been waiting for him to roll out the case for socialized home ownership that the "no-reg crowd" must have pushed so hard for back in the 30's.

Heavy snark, of course...it doesn't get anymore "regulated" than a GSE...and they "regulated" them right into the ground.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 00:32 | Link to Comment Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Amen WB7! The black holes known as our banks are sucking all capital and pissing it away.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 04:59 | Link to Comment terryfuckwit
terryfuckwit's picture

no good game ever existed or ever will without rules...and not bailing out failed business is one of the few simple rules that need rigorous implementation....

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:09 | Link to Comment kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Regulation is a red herring, I believe.  You can't do anything about the nature of the monetary system through regulation.  In a system where virtually all money is debt that is loaned into existence with interest, debt can do nothing but expand until such a time when the burden to maintain the debt overwhelms the productive economy.  That is baked into the system.  What we are witnessing now (what we've been witnessing for the past 15-20 years, really) is the system going into some sort of hyper-drive.  It's nothing more than the survival of the system.  It could be over tomorrow or in 10 years. Hedge accordingly.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:36 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

YES, exactly. Regulations confer nothing except a false sense of security. Expecting a government bureaucracy to regulate an entity that has 100,000x more resources available to it is childishly naive.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:48 | Link to Comment MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

"Regulations confer nothing except a false sense of security."

Because they are not enforced, they are ENFARCED.


We don't commingle client account funds with company bets. Really.

Sure that gold bar with the #0000XXXX on it belongs to you. Honest. 

Fill in more, here: ______________(hint, Not just MF Global, but Govt. Motors, and more).

 

Future enfarcement:

401ks (or is that 201ks)

Your pension

Social Security

FDIC

Fill in more, here: ____________(hint, all of it).

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:58 | Link to Comment Thunder_Downunder
Thunder_Downunder's picture

Haha great word :)

 

Enfarcement, love it!

 

Given the large number of bankers and politicians that ended up in jail after the financial crisis, clearly degrulation has aided the correct operation of markets.

 

Oh.. they didn't go to jail.. what? No criminal fraud? No breaching of risk covenants? Not even large scale civil action..?

 

Enfarcement and de-regulation. The system works :)

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 03:46 | Link to Comment Belarusian Bull
Belarusian Bull's picture

Spot on. This is a pure crisis of the unnatural monetary system.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 03:55 | Link to Comment ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

The traction is perception; talk is cheap.

The RNC has lost a generation or two of voters since the bail out of banks and corporations in 2008 they voted for - they are spitting in the wind to talk of free markets and capitalism.

Another 20 years of talk from Republictrats and Demicans about Freedom, Responsibility, Compassion, and Progress and "meeting in the middle" to pass 5,000 pages of legilslation and we will all be headed for or working in the Soylent Green factory.

Ron Paul is the only candidate making sense but this scares people, so he is marginalized.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 03:58 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

The free market purists have an simple proposal that can legitimise transactions on a global scale. It's called settlement. Your position seems to support the status quo, the release of bankers from safe reserve ratios and open slather credit creation. You my friend, have a major bondage fetish.

Do you understand the difference between payment and settlement? I'll assume not, as your post, though not explicit, leans toward the creationist camp. Money by immaculate conception.

Here's a deal. What ever assets you own, I'll write you a cheque for them for any amount you care to ask. You'll forgive me I'm sure, if the credit note that I use in exchange for your years of effort, only has my good faith and credit backing it. You can frame it and smile that mesmeric smile you get when you stare at a credit note like the ones in your wallet. Like an unregulated, fractional reserve practicing banker, I'll celebrate over your poor choice of counter-party vetting.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:00 | Link to Comment midgetrannyporn
midgetrannyporn's picture

At least the UK wasn't dumb enough to join the Euro debacle. :points at france and sez "ha ha" [/nelson]:

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:00 | Link to Comment Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

The room is full of Elephants, Dinosaurs, Whales, Bears and Gorillas ... Greece is an ant.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:42 | Link to Comment WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

Not quite. If they were insignificant, they would have been allowed to crumble. Leverage makes them an ant with a stick of dynamite.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 07:11 | Link to Comment toothpicker
toothpicker's picture

and politicans & journalists are made to believe they are at the zoo "hum hum hum nothing wrong here - a gorilla there - an elephant there"

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:00 | Link to Comment AUD
AUD's picture

It's been 80 years since the Old Lady on Threadneedle Street reneged & that wasn't for the first time.

The UK has had a pretty good run.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!