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The Question(s) Of Italy's 2451.8 Tons Of Gold
As the following update from the World Gold Council reminds us, at the end of October, Italy had 2,451.8 tonnes of gold, or roughly $140 billion dollars at today's price. We doubt we are the only ones keeping track of all this gold (most of it almost certainly 'safe and sound' about 150 feet deep under the infamous LIberty 33 location). We also doubt we are the only ones curious about its future, which we see as have five distinct possible outcomes: i) nothing; ii) it is currently being shipped quietly from The New York Fed to Italy for "general corporate purposes); iii) it has already been shipped and is currently being loaded up in Silvio's private jet; iv) the G-20 is already preparing to launch a formal demand that in order to remain in the Eurozone and to find the EFSF, which will be used to buy Italian bonds, Italy will have to do its patriotic duty and remit it to the ECB, an extortion attempt which was tried with Germany last week and which failed spectacularly; or v) it is being lent out to other countries who have long since sold their gold and continue to pretend they have some hard asset backing to the currencies issued by their own central banks. We hope to get an answer shortly.
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You sure it is just not painted bricks?
Amazing how much attention is being paid to this inedible traditional barbarous relic.
So very amusing to see that when these ponzi pricks are finally forced to face the music, the real questions start being asked. How much gold you got?
I mean, like, really. Who are we kidding? Like, its not even backed by Anything.
Indeed, the Shitwinds are a' blowin'
Shithawks are circlin....big, dirty shithawks.
It's like a game of Texas hold 'em, except instead of only 5 cards in the middle, they just keep turning them over in hopes that someone can get a royal flush. But now that the deck is running out of cards, people curiously want to start seeing each others hands.
In response, so many countries want to talk talk talk talk about why they shouldn't need to turn over their hands, why can't we just split the pot? But as the remaining cards dwindle, the words mean less and less and less. Soon it is just noise, an obvious attempt to avoid the inevitable. STOP JAWING AND FLIP OVER YOUR CARDS, I'M CALLING YOU. Then things get fun.
The cards will not be flipped - because US Empire, via NY FED, "holds" most European gold - except it's not there anymore, because US Empire stole it and sold it off long ago, because its strategy is to fuck the entire world with the three satanic weapons of empire:
FIAT, FIAT-DEBT, MILITARY
or - in mafia language:
NON-EXISTING VALUE, NON-EXISTING PRETEND-VALUE, BRUTALITY SOLD AS PROTECTION
If the cards were flipped, these self-evident truths would be revealed, US Empire would crumble - and even the majority of the 99% citizen slaves, don't want that.
US Ivy Leagues spew execs for Wall Street, US Corporation, US corrupt politicians, CIA, Pentagun, HomeLand Security - the new faces of National Socialism.
The game is rigged. Get your revolvers out. It IS the WILD WEST all over - except your up against not a few rotten apples, but an entire satanic system - and whoever draws fastest lives another day. It is each man for himself.
Justice and truth are fairy tales.
I'll get the revolver out, since you need something to shoot on your way to get your rifle!
YOU ALL ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKING MORONS!!!
Gold's not backed by anything? Are you serious? LOL!!! Dumbasses!!!
Gold is backed by GLDs and ETFs, you idiots!
If you can't get your hands on physical, they'll give you a bunch of certificates!
I mean, who wouldn't want a bunch of certificates?
In case you morons haven't noticed, it's NOVEMBER and shit's about to get COLD!
And as you all know, you can't burn gold. But you can burn paper all day and all night to keep your asses WARM!
Jeezus! Now, let's get back to talking about 9-9-9 plan. I hear it's like, totally hip right now. MSM tells me so.
9 pizzas with 9 toppings for 9 tenth-ounce silver coins!
too expensive. i'll pass.
You know, I bet that chart up there in the article, is a complete and total fiction. If you look into the US gold, well, do we have any? Think the other countries are any different?
two words...Bob Rubin
I reject your "99% citizen slaves" comment. It's much closer to 95%. There are still intelligent people left in this country, we just unfortunately don't have the political or financial might to do much about it. You can blame this on our two-party joke of an election system which consistently lets us choose between 'awful' and 'worse.'
Say what you want about our politicians, but we as a people are pretty pissed off.
Something's not right here..
$61 Billion in gold ain’t squat compared to €1900 Billion in debt.
Unless that gold is worth a whole lot more than $61 Billion..
http://nationaldebtclocks.com/italy.htm
The something not right there is in the header of the WGCs table. If you believe that fiat currencies are debt instruments, a promise to settle (as opposed to pay, they got paid in paper) then the percentage down the list should be 100% (if you don't want to lose your sovereignty). The reserve of only resort is gold. It has been leveraged by sovereign promisary paper and will be reformulated by demand for settlement.
Germany, Italy or any other country will never let go of their only settlement device. It will be gold or war that settles this. There are no other alternatives that present themselves that I can think of.
Exactly Watson......
The gold is worth a lot more than what it's on the books for :)
At the current $1780/oz, 2451 tonnes of gold is worth around $140 billion. Still a piss in the ocean compared to that much debt.
You are all wrong, Italian gold reserves are worth in US dollars 116.05 billion.
There are 2,451.8 tonnes, that is a metric ton at 2,200 pounds to the ton = 5,393,960 pounds of gold @12 troy ounces per pound = 64,727,520 ounces @ $1,793 per ounce two minutes ago = $116,056,443,360
Anytime you see the word TON spelled TONNE it is a metric ton at 2200 pounds. Please keep that in mind, and do not forget that there are 12 troy ounces in a pound, save you a lot of embarrassment some day.
Ton, tonne. It doesn't really matter, they are in the same order of magnitude.
We are talking about a material that is practically priced by the atom. Not only does that 200 pounds per ton matter it matters even more that there are 12 troy ounces in a pound rather than the 16 most of you think are in a pound where gold is concerned, like you would have for hamburger or your own body. Look at how far off TD's original calculation was, nearly forty BILLION dollars. That is not the same order of magnitude, and his correction was little better, still off by 24 billion dollars.
It makes me question the knowledge here of all the die hard gold bugs that cannot even make such a simple math calculation. It would mean to me that many or most here are operating on false assumptions and do not even care. That is mob mentality not the deliberate consideration we will need to get through what is about to happen to all of us.
It DOESN'T MATTER? Fine, then sell me 100 pounds of gold at spot (just make sure you count out 16 coins per pound). In fact you sell me those 1,600 one ounce coins and I will pay you 10% over spot. Then we will see if it matters to you because I will have just stolen 15% of your gold, ethically speaking, by taking advantage of your ignorance.
"There are 2,451.8 tonnes, that is a metric ton at 2,200 pounds to the ton = 5,393,960 pounds of gold @12 troy ounces per pound = 64,727,520 ounces @ $1,793 per ounce two minutes ago = $116,056,443,360"
Really?
There are 32,150 troy ounces in 1 metric tonne (1,000 kilos) so 2451.8 tonnes = 78,825,370 troy ounces @ $1793 per ounce = $141,333,888,410.00
Don't they teach math in school these days?
OK smart ass, setting aside conversions and math from metric tonnes to avoirdupois to US short tons or troy ounces, and multiplying by the spot price of the moment in dollars, here is what the Banca D'Italia says Italian gold reserves are worth and they ought to know since they hold Italy's gold:
The increase in the value of gold (79 million ounces or 2,452 tons) was entirely due to the rise in the metal’s price.
For what it is worth that is the statement made by the central bank of Italy on it's total gold holding as of 12/31/2010.
?NOW, multiply that by the US dollar spot price and we have no more arguments.
?http://www.bancaditalia.it/pubblicazioni/relann/rel10/rel10en/en_rel_2010.pdf
?79,000,000 X 1793 per ounce = $141,647,000,000. OK? We good?
?See page 232.
?
That's why I use avagadro's number and always do my conversions in moles.
a troy oz is 31.1 grams,which is(454/31.1)= 14.6 toz/lb
TD's caught the math error.. : )
Settlement device... yes..
I vote for war. That way the victor gets the gold AND the women.
War? Excellent! I call dibs on 10,000 oz. and Monica Bellucci.
Central Banks list their gold holdings as "gold and gold receivables" as if the leased gold is the same as the physical...US Treasury sure does.
Is it a coincidence that gold spiked around the time Venezuala took delivery?
no. and remember the first one to default/demand bullion back/haircut sovereign debt does best. second one to do so does next best ....
Yes, there is always the chance that gold is worth more. Like today, for example, when it looks like the scales are falling from a few people's eyes: $1798 spot.
Notice the sudden respectability of the quaint tradition? No, it's not money, that is unless you want to acept my gold as collateral, and then it's nein!
Moving south, the German response is followed quickly by Va fa un culo!
High-larious. =)
Shitclock's ticking, Bubs.
I am not a gold bug, but I do have to admit actions speak louder than words.
Germany just informed the world that gold is the ultimate asset.
Notice how suddenly theyre not talking about free leveraged up money out of thin air? Uh oh.
You will come to the dark side, Luke. Your "Come to Jesus" moment will arrive sooner rather than later. Some "Get It" by reasoning, others have to be clubbed into submission. What's it to be?
Tradition bitchez
www.pmbug.com
Loved that last top call...keep them coming until about $1,965 pls
Price action in PMs today in response to EU demanding that Germany use its gold reserves to back EFSF? Perhaps gold is now once again being seen for what it really is? Real money and the only safe haven in existence?
I think once the word "Italy" became the big headline today, a big portion of the market took a small squidgy shit in their pants and realized this could all get very ugly. In a world where giant amorphous leveraged super funds with unclear guarantees are heralded as the savior of modern economies, it is suddenly very comforting to own something real that does not rely on any promises from politicians.
Agreed.
Italy is going to make Greece look like a picnic just like 2011/2012 is going to make 2008 look like a cake walk.
or those MF Global accounts were shorts and front run.
Oct 31 was just before the beat down to $1,681 so a lot of them might have been like that MF G unfortunate quoted by BBerg with the 8,000GC who stood to "lose a lot of money"...not if he was long.
Not enough.
Tungsten is short as sovereigns demand physical shipments. Gold Bricking is the only other option.
No, it's 100% pure gold-plated titanium!
one is left to question how many paper lease claims are on those golds. Or when leased was it paper sold or physical sold...
Que WWWIII
If Italy's gold is being held at 33 Liberty St., there is no reason to fight. Just change the name tags on the pallets. Done.
No one would dare melt it. The melting point of Tungsten is higher than Gold.
24k Au melt = (Centigrade) 1063.
Tungsten = 3680 Centigrade (or 6656 Fahrenheit)
Unless one moves the smelting operations to the vicinity of Ground Zero, where melting points--indeed, the laws of physics themselves!--are meaningless and totally arbitrary, completely at the whims of governmental bodies and quasi-scientific boards.
no laws of physics were violated at ground zero, nor were they proposed to have
Yes. You're absolutely correct, Trav. No Laws were broken. Many laws were broken, but no Laws. Both observations are obvious to all who wish to see beyond the puppet show.
So I take it you are not aware of the melted gold story beneath the WTC, huh? Or you are aware, but have your hands over your ears? eyes? Perhaps moving them over your mouth so you can't type or speak would be the best course of action.
Thermite burns pretty hot, I hear.
There is already 40 or more name tags on every bar. They're running out of room.
dupe
Cue WW3 ?
QVC on the WWWeb ?
Just joined the stupid queue tonight?
Ahhh ignorance - how the signs do surface to put the lie to a poorly expressed thought.
Wait, never mind - there was no thought to begin with.
Berlisconi used it on hookers
A ton here, a ton there.
Before you know it, that's a whole lot of Gold plated Tungsten.
I'm going with iv)
The first of the twelve steps back to the tungsten standard.
I'll take the "tungsten standard" over this Biatchfest of a currency system.
Was it Clinton that had 100,000 bricks made out of tungston back in the 90's
The only solution is for Germany to return to the DM.
Bizzarely, that will improve the banking sector's capital position, when bund yields collapse.
Then the ECB can monetize all it wants, and PIIGS debt can stay marked to fantasy for as long as needed till banks get it off their books.
Rooting for Germany to leave.
They can either pay with a strong currency, or fiscal transfers for generations.
Except there is a gaggle of sociopathic narcissists in Brussels who need the EU Soviet power structure to survive as envisioned in the late '50's. Can't have the key player exit without the whole house of cards tumbling. There would be a giant whooshing sound of fleeing capital out of the majority of EU states into Germany if they bailed. And I mean worse than it already is.
No one is talking about what really needs to happen. A global debt reset. 100% haircuts all around or at least close to that -- pay off the nominal principal and negate CDS's. These loud mouths barking that they are entitled to 100% of notional when they have miniscule actual nominal skin in the game is getting annoying. Fiat currency is bad enough but fractional Fiat currency is full retard.
It's bad enough that we have a measley three score and 10 years on this planet without being hounded by f&*(ing shylocks.
So, let me see if I have this straight: You're proposing a security's value actually be tied to its prospect of delivering a cash-flow?
What is this strange language you speak?
***
Randy? Close the windows in the trailer... A shitstorm is a' comin'.
You can feel the shit clinging to the air on a day like today Randy...shit tsunami.
Birds of a shitfeather flock together, Randy.
Randy just doesn't understand. I mean I love him dearly, but I hate Ricky more. I just don't want to have to put up with that prick for the rest of my life. You know, he grew up as a little shit-spark from the old shit-flint. And then he turned into a shit-bonfire and then driven by the winds of his monumental ignorance, he turned into a raging shit-firestorm.
If I get to be married to Barb I'll have total control of Sunnyvale, and then I can unleash a shitnami tidal wave that'll engulf Ricky and extinguish his shit-flames forever. And with any luck, he'll drown in the undershit of that wave.
Shit-waves.
Leopold, you need to get a better grasp of English so you can express yourself without using "shit". Still searching for maturity?
You need to search Youtube for "shit hawks bubbles". Then you too shall understand.
i don't have debt, therefore, no reset.
Rumor: The Germans have ordered D-Marks from the printer.
Using gold to make the bond purchases? Wait a minute....now we're talking about not fake printed up paper promises money, but an actual hard asset to keep the Ponzi rolling? Totaly different game there, Im not holding my breath.
Wonder what happens if the ecb buys a couple of 100 ton in the open market.. gold at 20000 per ounce.. how much do they have to sell then ?
gold.. any price will do
I loves me some Eye-Talian cuisine.
Anyone know how Eye-Talian Gold tastes?
Like tungsten.
The debt issue must be solved with an equity swap. What will it be? Infrastructure? Land? Or a barbarous relic that nobody cares about right now?
'Nobody cares about gold' to the tune of about $1,800 an oz today.
While I'm being somewhat sarcastic, which trade would be easier to hide from the people? Easier to explain?
Why not just sell the people?
because people have been sold out already.
then again, i guess they could start creating paper derivatives of people and sell people out over and over and over...
They already do:
http://worldwideponzicollapse.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-your-government-...
The People have been sold and levered 80X over.
They call that a birth certificate. The derivative is the SSI card.
People bought and sold in the marketplace? The sex trade is only the most obvious version.
It's been lent out, or in the back of Sil B's Gulfstream. I'm sure he'll tell the ECB to go pound sand. or, maybe they never had that much to begin with.
http://vegasxau.blogspot.com
Being gold above 41 euro/gram I guess Italy's gold is closer in value to euro 100 bn. It will certainly be used either as collateral for short term funding in case of a complete inability to access the markets at any price or it will be given to the EFSF to cover Italy's share as you suggest.
how about gold at 410 euro per gram ? All they have to do is buy some with fresh printed euros
i'll loan Italy money at a 50% LTV, senior secured by their gold(and a few ferrari's)...anything else is too rich for me.
60 billion? that's kind of a drop in the bucket at this point. better than nothing i guess.
You can include as collateral the 19 new armoured Maseratis the Italian Ministry of Defence ordered. Austerity, bitchez!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8856149/Italian-gover...
That's what I thought; Just 60 billion?
But but but, i was told gold is not money, it's just a barbarous relic that banks hold because of tradition. And this came from the highly respected monetary wizard, seasoned market practician and he even has a PhD!!! I'm sure he knows better and he sure wouldn't lie in public.
Kelly's Heroes.
No plane can carry that much tonnage. Good! we get to keep it.
Its a little absurd that Germany demands from Italy that it provide its gold for an EFSF plan, while it doesn't do the same for itself, only from the point of view of German bund yields at historic lows, priced in Euros.
That being said, the same thing was said about Greece, they actually bought some gold in the interim. They also bought some used tanks.
Replace for itself with for Italy, and you're on the right track again.
That'll buy a lot of Ferraris
that will BUY Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Zonda...that's a lotta pasta rockets
wouldn't buy a ferrari for an ounce of gold unless i can resell the ferrari and convert it for more gold. ferraris cost too damn much to maintain. be more practical and buy a lexus or something. fuck cash-draining "supercars."
does anybody know if chavez ever got his gold delivered? haven't seen any news about it.
Last week I read somewhere that there were "problems" but nothing in weeks other than that. Don't remember where I read it.
Anyone?
i did a 10 minute google search about two weeks ago and there was nothing.
Anyone else have a problem with the "percent of reserves" figures?
China does!
TYLER WHEN ARE WE GOING TO BE ABLE TO BUY A ZH VERSION OF THE GOLD OR SILVER EAGLE ?? Many have mentioned that an artwork could be made and then engraved on the coin. Anyone else interested +1
Please us the motto "Money Bitchez".
Silver Bitchez! on the Silver coins and Tungsten Bitchez! on the Gold Plated Tungsten coins.
just don't call it a "dollar" eh, fuu?
i also like "e pluribus BiCheZ"
Using dollar will land you in jail.
In Bitchez We Thrust!
"Tradition Bitchez!" on the front, "Do Not Eat" on the back.
I would much prefer a 1oz Gold Plated Tungsten ZH coin.
That would be great. I could hang it on my with the 100T Zimbabwe bill, and the copy of a 1MM FRN.
The Bernank must surely be amused at all of this attention being paid to a mere "traditional" asset.
It's easy to understand his confusion though, as it's traditionally an ultimate extinguisher of debts, a concept that is completely alien to him.
All this talk about gold, how barbaric! Shiny baubles for the peasantry, thats all...PHD guys like Bernank know the real deal is in fake printed up money out of thin air.
What's with eurchf the last couple of days?
Talk of a higher peg again?
Swiss parliamentary panel call on SNB to raise EUR/CHF floor to 1.3000 from 1.2000: bit.ly/tm5x4fGold is nearing it's all time high. Excellent.
Gold game on bitchez
"Dear Italy, I.O.U. 2,451.8 tonnes of gold. love, Benny"
Whats more valuable than gold? Just about everything.
Right, everything is worth more than $1,800 an ounce.
You cant sell your gold for 1800/oz to anyone right now.
derp
Oh bill, bill, bill... You just showed your hand.
The local coin shop is selling gold this minute (just phoned) @ $90 over spot for eagles, $50 over for canadian or south african. Spot being 1794.50 plus at least 45 premium to beat the coin shop by a few bucks, I can sell my gold day and night in any quantity for 1840 an ounce. Of course I would have to get some pliers and rip my teeth out since that is the only gold I have.
I will buy all the gold you have for $1000/oz then.
No? How about $1200?
$1400?
Tell me when to stop...
Hm. Didn't think so.
Some do say Silver will be more valuable than Gold, I just never thought a stupid ass troll would agree.
Whu? ....WTF are you smoking Bill and where can I get some??
Looking with Amazement is that you?
Dollars, not Gold is the safe haven, just as Bloomberg News.
Yes because gold is backed by nothing but the Dollar is backed by the US Government and the FED.
The fuck.
Gold as a solution for Europe to recapitalise its banks etc can only have a positive effect if the WHOLE of the Eurozone commits its gold to the EFSF. Such an act will send gold soaring and will provide the EFSF with naturally occuring leverage through appreciation rather than debt enhanced leverage.
If gold were trading properly over 10k an ounce, Italy would be solvent and this whole mess would disappear. But thanks to some idiot quotes by Volcker, people seem to think gold is the enemy. But I do like Volcker's tall tale about how he saved the dollar by raising rates. The fact that gold rose until we could back the dollar 100% again had nothing to do with it. LOL.
Gold over 10k = happy world. Gold suppression = financial ruin.
Interesting point! Thinking cap on...
a source for your "fact" would be appreciated...
100% backing of currency? or close to 40% backing of net foreign debt per Jim Sinclair.
FOFOA has offered some interesting observations related to the role of Eurosystem member nation's gold to the Euro project in such posts as Euro Gold and RPG Update #4.
And FOFOA just published a longer piece, titled Moneyness, that fits this picture of the evolving role of gold in the international moentary system with a deconstruction of MMT. Not for the weary of words, but its very illuminating for the intrepid.
Does FOFOA see why his defense of the euro/ECB in light of the G-20 attempt to sequester German gold makes no sense?
smackdown, BiCheZ!
L0L!!!
my problem (well, ok, one of them) is how unreliable these data about gold holdings must me. and, yes, i got the the </s/> in tyler's last sentence. but zeroHeads have gone ape-shit about the phyzz to such an extent that who tf is gonna believe the "world gold council" and their "reports"?
the US or x/y/z//? reports its "holdings" to the WGC and it gets published. this doesn't make it true, now, does, it?
the PM prices are decoupling a little, today, it seems; i like higher PM prices on both risk 0n and risk 0ff days
wheeeee!
apologies for dual post - meant to link to Tyler...
!! Tyler - Are you sure you got your conversion right? I calculate roughly $57 million USD/tonne (see link below). Thus, Italy's 2,451 tonnes should be valued closer to $140 billion USD. Please correct me if wrong. Cheers - Big Slick
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
Is wiki messed up in their values??
(On the other hand, what's $80 billion per tonne between friendly manipulators of the capitalist system?)
No
I like reading FOFOA's perspective but I fail to understand his support for the Euro.
My guess would be that he's long Euros.
2500 tons would be on Silvio's boat, not his plane. Lots of space for young models as well.
It is interesting .. if You add numbers together ..and imply some numbers for the remaining european countries NOT mentioned .. that EUROPE combined ..holds close to as much GOLD as the rest of the world combined..including the US ... :) ..
It used to be ours. I think we want it back.
"holds" is the key word here.
Much of it is stored by the NYFed for "safe keeping."
> most of it almost certainly 'safe and sound' about 150 feet deep under the infamous LIberty 33 location
Italian gold is in Banca d'Italia. Viewable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u4iSEQOxyk
It shd read "The Quest for Italian Gold"