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The Real Dark Horse - S&P's Mass Downgrade FAQ May Have Just Hobbled The European Sovereign Debt Market

Tyler Durden's picture





 

All your questions about the historic European downgrade should be answered after reading the following FAQ. Or so S&P believes. Ironically, it does an admirable job, because the following presentation successfully manages to negate years of endless lies and propaganda by Europe's incompetent and corrupt klepocrarts, and lays out the true terrifying perspective currently splayed out before the eurozone better than most analyses we have seen to date. Namely that the failed experiment is coming to an end. And since the Eurozone's idiotic foundation was laid out by the same breed of central planning academic wizards who thought that Keynesianism was a great idea (and continue to determine the fate of the world out of their small corner office in the Marriner Eccles building), the imminent downfall of Europe will only precipitate the final unraveling of the shaman "economic" religion that has taken the world to the brink of utter financial collapse and, gradually, world war.

Here are the key take home messages from the FAQ (source):

  • We believe that as long as uncertainty about the bond buyers at primary auctions remains, the risk of a deepening of the crisis remains a real one. These risks could be exacerbated should renewed policy disagreements among European policymakers emerge or the Greek debt restructuring lead to an outcome that further discourages financial investors to add to their positions in peripheral sovereign securities.
  • The outcomes from the EU summit on Dec. 9, 2011, and subsequent statements from policymakers, lead us to believe that the agreement reached has not produced a breakthrough of sufficient size and scope to fully address the eurozone's financial problems. According to our assessment, the political agreement reached at the summit did not contain significant new initiatives to address the near-term funding challenges that have engulfed the eurozone.
  • Instead, it focuses on what we consider to be a one-sided approach by emphasizing fiscal austerity without a strong and consistent program to raise the growth potential of the economies in the eurozone.
  • Financial solidarity among member states appears to us to be insufficient to prevent prolonged funding uncertainties. Specifically, we believe that the current crisis management tools may not be adequate to restore lasting confidence in the creditworthiness of large eurozone members such as Italy and Spain. Nor do we think they are likely to instill sufficient confidence in these sovereigns' ability to address potential financial system stresses in their jurisdiction. In such a setting, the prospects of effectively intervening in the feedback loop between sovereign and financial sector risk are in our opinion weak.
  • Despite these encouraging developments on domestic policy, we downgraded both sovereigns by two notches. This is due to our opinion that Italy and Spain are particularly prone to the risk of a sudden deterioration in market conditions.
  • While we see a lack of fiscal prudence as having been a major contributing factor to high public debt levels in some countries, such as Greece, we believe that the key underlying issue for the eurozone as a whole is one of a growing divergence in competitiveness between the core and the so-called "periphery."
  • We believe that the risk of a credit crunch remains real in a number of countries as economic conditions weaken and banks continue to consolidate their balance sheets in light of tighter capital requirements and poor market conditions in which to raise additional equity
  • We estimate a 40% probability that a deeper and more prolonged recession could hit the eurozone, with a likely reduction of economic activity of 1.5% in 2012.
  • We believe an even deeper and more prolonged slump cannot be entirely excluded. We expect this weak macroeconomic outlook if realized would complicate the implementation of budget plans, with slippages to be expected, which would likely further dampen confidence and potentially deepen the recession, as funding and credit is curtailed and the private sector increases precautionary savings.
  • Reports indicate that many investors had hoped that a breakthrough at the December summit would have enticed the ECB to step up its direct government bond purchases in the secondary market through its Security Market Program (SMP). However, these hopes were quickly deflated as it became clearer that the ECB would prefer to provide banks with unlimited funding, partly with the expectation that those liquid funds in banks' balance sheets would find their way into primary sovereign bond auctions. This indirect way of supporting the sovereign bond market may yet be successful, but we believe that banks may remain cautious when being faced with primary sovereign offerings, as most financial institutions have aimed at shrinking their balance sheets by running down security portfolios in order to comply with higher capital requirements, which become effective in 2012.

Shockingly, S&P dares to challenge not only the status quo, but "powerful national interest groups" - easily the first time we have seen something like this out of a "status quo" organization, let alone a rating agency.

  • Governments are also aiming to put greater focus on growth-enhancing structural measures. While these may contribute positively to a lasting solution of the current crisis, we believe they could also run counter to powerful national interest groups, whose resistance could potentially jeopardize the reform momentum and impede the recovery of market confidence.

Why it is all a Catch 22 and why the LTRO "carry trade" has failed:

  • Recent Italian and other primary auctions suggest to us, however, that banks and other investors may still only be willing to lend longer term to governments facing market pressure if they are offered interest rates that, all other things being equal, will make fiscal consolidation harder to achieve.

Let's not forget the EFSF:

  • We are currently assessing the credit implications of today's eurozone sovereign downgrades on those institutions and will publish our updated credit view in the coming days.

And probably the most important observation of the night:

  • As we noted previously, we expect eurozone policymakers will accord ESM de-facto preferred creditor status in the event of a eurozone sovereign default. We believe that the prospect of subordination to a large creditor, which would have a key role in any future debt rescheduling, would make a lasting contribution to the rise in long-term government bond yields of lower-rated eurozone sovereigns and may reduce their future market access.

The S&P itself warns that the entire basis of the European bailout will create a split market in sovereign bonds, in which pari passu treatment will be a thing of the past, and in which buyers will have no clue what treatment awaits them in a worst case scenario. If anyone thought that ISDA's idiotic attempt to kill the CDS market caused a collapse in demand for sovereign paper, just wait until potential buyers comprehend they could be primed every step of the way and the market is effectively two tier.

S&P may have just killed the European sovereign market by saying out loud what only "fringe bloggers" dared suggest in the past.

From S&P

FRANKFURT (Standard & Poor's) Jan. 13, 2012--Standard & Poor's Ratings Services today completed its review of its ratings on 16 eurozone sovereigns, resulting in downgrades for nine eurozone sovereigns and affirmations of the ratings on seven others.

We have lowered the long-term ratings on Cyprus, Italy, Portugal, and Spain by two notches; lowered the long-term ratings on Austria, France, Malta, the Slovak Republic, and Slovenia, by one notch; and affirmed the long-term ratings on Belgium, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands. All ratings on the 16 sovereigns have been removed from CreditWatch where they were placed with negative implications on Dec. 5, 2011 (except for Cyprus, which was first placed on CreditWatch on Aug. 12, 2011).

The outlooks on our long-term ratings on all but two of the 16 eurozone sovereigns are negative; the outlooks on the long-term ratings on Germany and Slovakia are stable. See "Standard & Poor's Takes Various Rating Actions On 16 Eurozone Sovereign Governments," published today for full details.

This report addresses questions that we anticipate market participants might ask in connection with our rating actions today.

WHAT HAS PROMPTED THE DOWNGRADES?

Today's rating actions are primarily driven by our assessment that the policy initiatives that have been taken by European policymakers in recent weeks may be insufficient to fully address ongoing systemic stresses in the eurozone. In our view, these stresses include: (1) tightening credit conditions, (2) an increase in risk premiums for a widening group of eurozone issuers, (3) a simultaneous attempt to delever by governments and households, (4) weakening economic growth prospects, and (5) an open and prolonged dispute among European policymakers over the proper approach to address challenges.

The outcomes from the EU summit on Dec. 9, 2011, and subsequent statements from policymakers lead us to believe that the agreement reached has not produced a breakthrough of sufficient size and scope to fully address the eurozone's financial problems. In our opinion, the political agreement does not supply sufficient additional resources or operational flexibility to bolster European rescue operations, or extend enough support for those eurozone sovereigns subjected to heightened market pressures.

We also believe that the agreement is predicated on only a partial recognition of the source of the crisis: that the current financial turmoil stems primarily from fiscal profligacy at the periphery of the eurozone. In our view, however, the financial problems facing the eurozone are as much a consequence of rising external imbalances and divergences in competitiveness between the EMU's core and the so-called "periphery". As such, we believe that a reform process based on a pillar of fiscal austerity alone risks becoming self-defeating, as domestic demand falls in line with consumers' rising concerns about job security and disposable incomes, eroding national tax revenues.

Accordingly, in line with our published sovereign criteria, we have adjusted downward our political scores (one of the five key factors in our criteria) for those eurozone sovereigns we had previously scored in our two highest categories. This reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of European policymaking and political institutions have not been as strong as we believe are called for by the severity of a broadening and deepening financial crisis in the eurozone.

In addition to our assessment of the policy response to the crisis, downgrades in some countries have also been triggered by external risks. In our view, it is increasingly likely that refinancing costs for certain countries may remain elevated, that credit availability and economic growth may further decelerate, and that pressure on financing conditions may persist. Accordingly, for those sovereigns we consider most at risk of an economic downturn and deteriorating funding conditions, for example due to their large cross-border financing needs, we have adjusted our external score downward.

WHY WERE SOME EUROZONE SOVEREIGNS DOWNGRADED BY TWO NOTCHES AND OTHERS BY ONE NOTCH?

We believe that not all sovereigns are equally vulnerable to the possible extension and intensification of the financial crisis. Those we consider most at risk of an economic downturn and deteriorating funding conditions, for example due to the large cross-border financing needs of its governments or financial sectors, have been downgraded by two notches, as we lowered the political score and/or the external score reflecting our view of the risk of a marked deterioration in the country's external financing.

On the other hand, we affirmed the ratings of sovereigns which we believe are likely to be more resilient at their current rating level in light of their relatively strong external positions and less leveraged public and private sectors. These credit strengths remain robust enough, in our opinion, to neutralize the potential ratings impact from the lowering of our political score.

In this context, we would note that the ratings on the eurozone sovereigns remain at comparatively high levels, with only three below investment grade (Portugal, Cyprus, and Greece). Historically, investment-grade rated sovereigns have experienced very low default rates. From 1975 to 2010, the 15-year cumulative default rate for sovereigns rated in investment grades was 1.02%, and 0.00% for sovereigns rated in the 'A' category or higher.

WHY DO THE RATINGS ON MOST OF THESE SOVEREIGNS HAVE NEGATIVE OUTLOOKS?

For those sovereigns with negative outlooks, we believe that downside risks persist and that a more adverse economic and financial environment could erode their relative strengths within the next year or two to a degree that in our view could warrant a further downward revision of their long-term ratings. We believe that the main downside risks that could affect eurozone sovereigns to various degrees are related to the possibility of further significant fiscal deterioration as a consequence of a more recessionary macroeconomic environment and/or vulnerabilities to further intensification and broadening of risk aversion among investors, jeopardizing funding access at sustainable rates. A more severe financial and economic downturn than we currently envisage (see "Sovereign Risk Indicators," published Dec. 28, 2011) could also lead to rising stress levels in the European banking system, potentially leading to additional fiscal costs for the sovereigns through various bank workout or recapitalization programs. Furthermore, we believe that there is a risk that reform fatigue could be mounting, especially in those countries that have experienced deep recessions and where growth prospects remain bleak, which could eventually lead to lower levels of predictability of policy orientation, potentially leading to another downward adjustment of the political score, which might lead to lower ratings.

We believe that important risks related to potential near-term deterioration of credit conditions remain for a number of sovereigns. This belief is based on what we see as the sovereigns' very substantial financing needs in early 2012, the risk of further downward revisions of economic growth expectations, and the challenge to maintain political support for unpopular and possibly more severe austerity measures, as fiscal targets are endangered by macroeconomic headwinds. Governments are also aiming to put greater focus on growth-enhancing structural measures. While these may contribute positively to a lasting solution of the current crisis, we believe they could also run counter to powerful national interest groups, whose resistance could potentially jeopardize the reform momentum and impede the recovery of market confidence. In our view, it also remains to be seen whether European banks will indeed use the ample term funding provided by the ECB (see below) to purchase newly issued sovereign bonds of governments under financial stress. We believe that as long as uncertainty about the bond buyers at primary auctions remains, the risk of a deepening of the crisis remains a real one. These risks could be exacerbated should renewed policy disagreements among European policymakers emerge or the Greek debt restructuring lead to an outcome that further discourages financial investors to add to their positions in peripheral sovereign securities.

For two sovereigns, Germany and Slovakia, we concluded that downside scenarios that could lead to a lowering of the relevant credit scores and the sovereign ratings carry a likelihood of less than one-in-three during 2012 or 2013. Accordingly we have assigned a stable outlook.

HOW DO WE INTERPRET THE CONCLUSIONS OF THE DECEMBER EUROPEAN SUMMIT?

We have previously stated our belief that an effective strategy that would buoy confidence and lower the currently elevated borrowing costs for European sovereigns could include, for example, a greater pooling of fiscal resources and obligations as well as enhanced mutual budgetary oversight. We have also stated that we believe that a reform process based on a pillar of fiscal austerity alone would risk becoming self-defeating, as domestic demand falls in line with consumer's rising concerns about job security and disposable incomes, eroding national tax revenues.

The outcomes from the EU summit on Dec. 9, 2011, and subsequent statements from policymakers, lead us to believe that the agreement reached has not produced a breakthrough of sufficient size and scope to fully address the eurozone's financial problems. In our opinion, the political agreement does not supply sufficient additional resources or operational flexibility to bolster European rescue operations, or extend enough support for those eurozone sovereigns subjected to heightened market pressures. Instead, it focuses on what we consider to be a one-sided approach by emphasizing fiscal austerity without a strong and consistent program to raise the growth potential of the economies in the eurozone. While some member states have implemented measures on the national level to deregulate internal labor markets, and improve the flexibility of domestic services sectors, these reforms do not appear to us to be coordinated at the supra-national level; as evidence, we would note large and widening discrepancies in activity and unemployment levels among the 17 eurozone member states.

Regarding additional resources, the main enhancement we see has been to bring forward to mid-2012 the start date of the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), the successor vehicle to the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF). This will marginally increase these official sources' lending capacity from currently €440bn to €500bn. As we noted previously, we expect eurozone policymakers will accord ESM de-facto preferred creditor status in the event of a eurozone sovereign default. We believe that the prospect of subordination to a large creditor, which would have a key role in any future debt rescheduling, would make a lasting contribution to the rise in long-term government bond yields of lower-rated eurozone sovereigns and may reduce their future market access.

We also believe that the agreement is predicated on only a partial recognition of the source of the crisis: that the current financial turmoil stems primarily from fiscal profligacy at the periphery of the eurozone. In our view, however, the financial problems facing the eurozone are as much a consequence of rising external imbalances and divergences in competitiveness between the EMU's core and the so-called "periphery." In our opinion, the eurozone periphery has only been able to bear its underperformance on competitiveness (manifest in sizeable external deficits) because of funding by the banking systems of the more competitive northern eurozone economies. According to our assessment, the political agreement reached at the summit did not contain significant new initiatives to address the near-term funding challenges that have engulfed the eurozone.

The summit focused primarily on a long-term plan to reverse fiscal imbalances. It proposed to enshrine into national legislation requirements for structurally balanced budgets. Certain institutional enhancements have been introduced to strengthen the enforceability of the fiscal rules compared to the Stability and Growth Pact, such as reverse qualified majority voting required to overturn sanctions proposed by the European Commission in case of violations of the broadly balanced budget rules. Notwithstanding this progress, we believe that the enforcement of these measures is far from certain, even if all member states eventually passed respective legislation by parliaments (and by referendum, where this is required). Our assessment is based on several factors, including:

  • The difficulty of forecasting reliably and precisely structural deficits, which we expect will likely be at the center of any decision on whether to impose sanctions;
  • The ability of individual member states' elected governments to extricate themselves from the external control of the European Commission by withdrawing from the intergovernmental agreement, which will not be part of an EU-wide Treaty; and
  • The possibility that the appropriateness of these fiscal rules may come under scrutiny when a recession may, in the eyes of policymakers, call for fiscal stimulus in order to stabilize demand, which could be precluded by the need to adhere to the requirement to balance budgets.

Details on the exact content and operational procedures of the rules are still to emerge and -- depending on the stringency of the rules -- the process of passing national legislation may run into opposition in some signatory states, which in turn could lower the confidence of investors and the credibility of the agreed policies.

More fundamentally, we believe that the proposed measures do not directly address the core underlying factors that have contributed to the market stress. It is our view that the currently experienced financial stress does not in the first instance result from fiscal mismanagement. This to us is supported by the examples of Spain and Ireland, which ran an average fiscal deficit of 0.4% of GDP and a surplus of 1.6% of GDP, respectively, during the period 1999-2007 (versus a deficit of 2.3% of GDP in the case of Germany), while reducing significantly their public debt ratio during that period. The policies and rules agreed at the summit would not have indicated that the boom-time developments in those countries contained the seeds of the current market turmoil.

While we see a lack of fiscal prudence as having been a major contributing factor to high public debt levels in some countries, such as Greece, we believe that the key underlying issue for the eurozone as a whole is one of a growing divergence in competitiveness between the core and the so-called "periphery." Exacerbated by the rapid expansion of European banks' balance sheets, this has led to large and growing external imbalances, evident in the size of financial sector claims of net capital-exporting banking systems on net importing countries. When the financial markets deteriorated and risk aversion increased, the financing needs of both the public and financial sectors in the "periphery" had to be covered to varying degrees by official funding, including European Central Bank (ECB) liquidity as well as intergovernmental, EFSF, and IMF loans.

HOW HAS THE EUROPEAN POLICY RESPONSE AFFECTED THE RATINGS?

We have generally adjusted downward our political scores (one of the five key factors in our published sovereign ratings criteria) for those eurozone sovereigns we had previously scored in our two highest categories. This score change has been a contributing factor to the rating actions on the relevant sovereigns cited above. Under the political score, we assess how a government's institutions and policymaking affect a sovereign's credit fundamentals by delivering sustainable public finances, promoting balanced growth, and responding to economic or political shocks. Our political score also captures the potential effect of external organizations on policy settings.

It is our view that the limitations on monetary flexibility imposed by membership in the eurozone are not adequately counterbalanced by other eurozone economic policies to avoid the negative impact on creditworthiness that the eurozone members are in opinion view currently facing. Financial solidarity among member states appears to us to be insufficient to prevent prolonged funding uncertainties. Specifically, we believe that the current crisis management tools may not be adequate to restore lasting confidence in the creditworthiness of large eurozone members such as Italy and Spain. Nor do we think they are likely to instill sufficient confidence in these sovereigns' ability to address potential financial system stresses in their jurisdiction. In such a setting, the prospects of effectively intervening in the feedback loop between sovereign and financial sector risk are in our opinion weak.

HOW DO YOU EXPECT MACROECONOMIC DEVELOPMENTS WILL AFFECT THE REFORM AGENDA?

We believe that the elusiveness of an effective policy response is likely to add to caution among households and investors alike, weighing on the growth outlook for all eurozone members. Our base case still assumes that the eurozone will record moderate growth in 2012 and 2013, i.e. 0.2% and 1%, respectively -- down from 0.4% and 1.2% according to our early December forecast, with a relatively mild recession in the first half of 2012. Nevertheless, we estimate a 40% probability that a deeper and more prolonged recession could hit the eurozone, with a likely reduction of economic activity of 1.5% in 2012. Furthermore, we believe an even deeper and more prolonged slump cannot be entirely excluded. We expect this weak macroeconomic outlook if realized would complicate the implementation of budget plans, with slippages to be expected, which would likely further dampen confidence and potentially deepen the recession, as funding and credit is curtailed and the private sector increases precautionary savings.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS IN GREECE AND WHAT IMPACT DO THEY HAVE YOUR ANALYSIS?

We did not change the rating on Greece, which had been downgraded to 'CC' in July 2011, indicating our view of the risk of imminent default. Negotiations with bondholders have taken longer than originally anticipated and we believe may now run close to a large redemption of €14.5 billion on March 20, 2012, raising the specter of a disorderly default. Such an event would in our view further complicate the restoration of affordable market access for other sovereigns experiencing market stress. We understand that the main unresolved issues are related to the treatment of holdouts, the participation of official creditors, and the coupon of the new bonds that will be offered (which partly determine the effective recovery, which we continue to expect to lie between 30% and 50%). We do not believe that private-sector involvement will necessarily be a one-off event in the case of the Greek restructuring and would not be sought in possible future bail-out packages in a future case of sovereign insolvency or prolonged loss of market access. All the more so as official lenders are less likely to bear any future losses as their lending will be channeled through the ESM, a privileged creditor that is expected to be senior to bondholders in any future restructuring.

HOW DOES STANDARD & POOR'S VIEW THE ECB's RESPONSE TO DATE?

In our view, the actions of the ECB have been instrumental in averting a collapse of market confidence. We see that the ECB has eased its eligibility criteria, allowing an ever-expanding pool of assets to be used as collateral for its funding operations, and has lowered the fixed rate on its main refinancing operation to 1%, an all-time low. Most importantly in our view, it has engaged in unprecedented repurchase operations for financial institutions. In December 2011, it lent financial institutions almost €500 billion over three years and announced further unlimited long-term funding auctions for early 2012. This has greatly relieved the funding pressure for banks, which will have to redeem over €200 billion of bonded debt (excluding in some jurisdictions sizeable private placements) in the first quarter alone. By lowering the ECB deposit rate to 0.25%, we believe that the central bank has implicitly tried to encourage financial institutions to engage in a carry trade of borrowing up to three-year funds cheaply from the central bank and purchasing high-yielding government bonds. Recent Italian and other primary auctions suggest to us, however, that banks and other investors may still only be willing to lend longer term to governments facing market pressure if they are offered interest rates that, all other things being equal, will make fiscal consolidation harder to achieve.

Reports indicate that many investors had hoped that a breakthrough at the December summit would have enticed the ECB to step up its direct government bond purchases in the secondary market through its Security Market Program (SMP). However, these hopes were quickly deflated as it became clearer that the ECB would prefer to provide banks with unlimited funding, partly with the expectation that those liquid funds in banks' balance sheets would find their way into primary sovereign bond auctions. This indirect way of supporting the sovereign bond market may yet be successful, but we believe that banks may remain cautious when being faced with primary sovereign offerings, as most financial institutions have aimed at shrinking their balance sheets by running down security portfolios in order to comply with higher capital requirements, which become effective in 2012. We believe that the ECB has not entirely closed the door to expanding its involvement in the sovereign bond market but remains reluctant to do so except in more dramatic circumstances. In our view, this reluctance is likely prompted by concerns about moral hazard, the ECB's own credibility (particularly should losses mount), and potential inflation pressures in the longer term. We think it may also be the case that the ECB (as well as some eurozone governments) is concerned that governments' reform efforts would falter prematurely if market pressure subsides.

We believe that the risk of a credit crunch remains real in a number of countries as economic conditions weaken and banks continue to consolidate their balance sheets in light of tighter capital requirements and poor market conditions in which to raise additional equity. However, the monetary policy actions described above may mitigate the risk of a more extreme tightening of credit conditions, which, if it were to come to pass, could put further pressure on economic activity and employment.

In summary, while the monetary policy reaction has not been as accommodating as many investors may have anticipated or hoped for, we believe that it has nevertheless provided significant breathing space during which progress on policy reform can be made. Furthermore, the ECB may yet engage in additional supporting steps should the sovereign and bank funding crises intensify further. Therefore, we have not changed our monetary score on eurozone sovereigns.

HOW DOES STANDARD & POOR'S ASSESS THE REFORM EFFORTS OF THE NEW GOVERNMENTS IN ITALY AND SPAIN?

In our view, the governments of Mario Monti and Mariano Rajoy have stepped up initiatives to modernize their economies and secure the sustainability of public finances over the long term. We consider that the domestic political management of the crisis has improved markedly in Italy. Therefore, we have not changed our political risk score for Italy because we are of the opinion that the weakening policy environment at the European level is to a sufficient degree offset by Italy's stronger domestic capacity to formulate and implement crisis-mitigating economic policies.

Despite these encouraging developments on domestic policy, we downgraded both sovereigns by two notches. This is due to our opinion that Italy and Spain are particularly prone to the risk of a sudden deterioration in market conditions. Thus, we believe that, as far as sovereign creditworthiness is concerned, the deepening of the crisis and the risks of further market dislocation that could accompany an inconclusive European crisis management strategy more than offset our view of the enhanced national policy orientation.

WHY WAS IRELAND THE ONLY SOVEREIGN AMONG THE SO-CALLED "PERIPHERY" NOT
DOWNGRADED?

We have not adjusted our political score backing the rating on Ireland. This reflects our view that the Irish government's response to the significant deterioration in its public finances and the recent crisis in the Irish financial sector has been proactive and substantive. This offsets our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of European policymaking as a whole remains insufficient in addressing the deepening financial crisis in the eurozone. Excluding government-funded banking sector recapitalization payments, the authorities have adjusted Ireland's budget by almost 13% of estimated 2012 GDP since 2008 and plan additional fiscal savings of close to 8% of GDP for 2012-2015. All other things being equal, we view the government's fiscal consolidation plan as sufficient to achieve a general government deficit of about 3% of GDP in 2015. In our view, there is currently a strong political consensus behind the fiscal consolidation program and policy implementation so far has been extremely strong.

In our view, Ireland has the most flexible and open economy among the "periphery" sovereigns. We believe that Ireland's economic adjustment process is further advanced than in the other sovereigns currently experiencing market pressures. This is illustrated by the 25% depreciation in the trade-weighted exchange rate since May 2008 and Irish exports growth contributed positively to the muted Irish economic recovery in 2011. However, in our view this also leaves the Irish economy and, ultimately, the Irish government's fiscal consolidation program susceptible to worsening external economic conditions, which is reflected in our negative outlook on the rating.

WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS FOR THE EFSF AND OTHER EUROPEAN MULTILATERAL LENDING INSTITUTIONS?

Following our placement of the ratings on the eurozone sovereigns on CreditWatch in December, we also placed a number of supranational entities on CreditWatch with negative implications. These included, among others, the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF), the European Investment Bank (EIB), and the European Union's own funding program. We are currently assessing the credit implications of today's eurozone sovereign downgrades on those institutions and will publish our updated credit view in the coming days.

 


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Fri, 01/13/2012 - 19:58 | Link to Comment navy62802
navy62802's picture

Bomb Iran and end this corrupt bullshit once and for all. Bombing Iran will speed this process up quite a bit.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:03 | Link to Comment Future Tense
Future Tense's picture

It's amazing how long this whole process is taking.  This sovereign debt train wreck feels like it is moving so much slower than the housing crisis.  Once we finally get the first default or major bankruptcy out of Europe it is going to trigger chaos in both China and Japan.  Here is a good article discussing what guys like John Mauldin talk about in Endgame through the lens of a butterly effect:

http://www.ftense.com/2012/01/2012-outlook-global-butterly-effect.html

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:07 | Link to Comment LaLiLuLeLo
LaLiLuLeLo's picture

They're going to stretch this thing out further than Kim Kardashian's g-string.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:09 | Link to Comment I think I need ...
I think I need to buy a gun's picture

THE PLAN is in place

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:22 | Link to Comment The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Dude, the bombing of Iran can't start until October 2012, otherwise its effectiveness at helping re-elect a wartime President Obama will diminish as the "war" becomes yet another protracted conflict. 

BTW, you can also expect the second killing of Osama around the same time.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:46 | Link to Comment UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Nah, with 3 carrier groups in sortie range, the fireworks will start pretty soon.

After all, with a "righteous war" going on, TPTB can blame Iran on the collapse of the global economy.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:05 | Link to Comment Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

Quick, look over here at Iran while we double down on the failed bureaucratic experiment!

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:53 | Link to Comment eureka
eureka's picture

THE TYLERS HATE EU - AND EUROPEANS TOO - THEY JUST FORGOT TO LIST THEIR OTHER FAVORITE DEROGATORY TERMS FOR EUROPEAN BUREAUCRATS: "FAT AND BALD" - 

one could get the idea that THE TYLERS ARE TOOLS FOR US EMPIRE - as in "THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE" - i.e. only one centralized conglomeration, one empire, in this world - and that is of course the US one -

the Tylers do criticize the Bernank and the FEDERAL RESERVE, but NEVER EVER US Corporate and Military Empire, i.e. the other leg of US EMPIRE AND ITS COLLECTIVIST AND BUREAUCRAT DRIVEN DEATH MACHINE

never mind that US & UK - the USUKs - are the biggest financialization scumbags in the history of the world - rigging and ripping off everybody for way too long - including rigging EU with TOTAL GARBAGE US PAPER - thereby executing a consistent US strategy to kill the EUR and EU, who was getting way too strong way too fast for the taste of the "noble" US Elite, noble US kleptocrats and noble assorted US hegemons -

NOTE TO THE TYLERS:  YOU BIASES AND ALLEGIANCES ARE GETTING ULTRA TRANSPARENT - AND BORING.

IF EU goes down - mark my words: US EMPIRE goes with it.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:54 | Link to Comment UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Wow.  Read much?

Better yet, comprehend much?

Do you need a hug?

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 06:32 | Link to Comment Ethics Gradient
Ethics Gradient's picture

He certainly hasn't read the 'about' page: http://www.zerohedge.com/node/13972

Zerohedge biased? Yes. It's advertised as such.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 11:11 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

The socialists have killed millions.

 

Perhaps we should get a clue and just get rid of the socialists.

 

Seems like it would solve a lot of problems.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 15:16 | Link to Comment tj3
tj3's picture

The physicists' have killed millions.

Perhaps we should get a clue and just get rid of the physicists.

Seems like it would solve a lot of problems.

ftfy

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 18:01 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

Wrong.....physicists have designed things that have killed millions.

 

You must be a socialist.

 

Only a socialist is that freakin dumb.

 

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 20:30 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

GetZeeGold claimed:

Only a socialist is that freakin dumb.

No "ism" or "ist" has cornered the market in stupidity. It is distributed more equitably than anything else in the world.

 

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 09:29 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Pure horseshit ami...........go read a fu_king history book.

Until you do please shut up.

 

 

 

 

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 09:44 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

GetZeeGold proved my point when stating:

Pure horseshit ami...........go read a fu_king history book.

No need to do so, buddy. I've learned through direct observation that no matter how you categorize people into groups, each group will have its share of both sensible people and stupid people.

Until you do please shut up.

Please go fuck right off.

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 12:33 | Link to Comment hunglow
hunglow's picture

That's a header exhaust gasket for a 63 Lincoln, right?

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 20:56 | Link to Comment UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Rotor from a Wenkel engine, most likely a Mazda RX engine.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 07:47 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

perhaps a hug would help! +1 for offering one

no I think eureka is just fuming about some of the preconceptions around the language this Tyler uses:

 

"Europe's incompetent and corrupt klepocrarts" - the question is all of them? compared to...?

"true terrifying perspective eurozone ...faces" - what perspective? default? this would not be terrifying...

"failed experiment is coming to an end" - this is a baddy, because for most EU denizens, it's all about not having any wars in Europe anymore, i.e. decrease national policy collisions, so here the misunderstanding is about the goals and the means... Tyler is not aware enough of the non-British-view-in-Europe

"the Eurozone's idiotic foundation" - what? a common currency? did we not have once a gold-standard? again, a bit vague and sounds like half-baked basic propaganda for Continental Europeans ears...

"was laid out by the same breed of central planning academic wizards who thought that Keynesianism was a great idea" - aha! here comes the beef, the central US-Austrian view that all in Europe is Keynesian-socialist. Here the Tylers just don't understand many of the reasons of the EU and the eurozone, how much of it is a reflection on the US hegemony and how much thought was put into it from people that would agree with the Tylers in many points and did foresee some little things like new currency and trade wars. Too much British propaganda/POV, that's all.

"the imminent downfall of Europe will only precipitate the final unraveling of the shaman "economic" religion that has taken the world to the brink of utter financial collapse and, gradually, world war."

And here the grand finale: Europe has to fall (to what? again? worse then the WWs?), so that the shaman religion is taken down (Neo-Keynesianism), financial collapse (but please do not include the whight knight hedgies into it, they are doing it right, they are the riders of the apocalypse) and, of course, world war.

IMHO, you can't have all three, but, ok, ok, we'll see...

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 09:20 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

"And here the grand finale: Europe has to fall (to what? again? worse then the WWs?), so that the shaman religion is taken down (Neo-Keynesianism), financial collapse (but please do not include the whight knight hedgies into it, they are doing it right, they are the riders of the apocalypse) and, of course, world war."

lol...yes, having foreign financial institutions dictate how sovereign nations and their people will conduct their own internal affairs is a much better enslavement strategy.

Sorry, my sarc button is rusted, needs a little Greece ;-)

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 10:05 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

LOL, Greece is good for drama, tragedy (of the commons), irony and sarcasm...

I get reminded of Churchill and his "soft underbelly of Europe" theory he applied in WW1 and WW2

BTW, I do not hate Neo-Keynesianism, I just think it's the usual rob-as-you-go corruption as seen in history hundred times...

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 10:14 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"enslavement" is a big word - there are so many like ally, vassal, follower, debitor, creditor, "the one that pays for G.H.Bush war", "those who set up a shadow-dollar-called-euro", "those who attack Lybia", and "those who throw a temper tantrum".

the relationship between the US hegemon and the european hegemony is old and complex, like an old man, his three wifes, 23 concubines and the sexy cook.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:01 | Link to Comment Karl von Bahnhof
Karl von Bahnhof's picture

Hey guys, think twice, it is not Europe AGAINST Us... At least it should not be!

But propaganda runs 300%

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:48 | Link to Comment piceridu
piceridu's picture

Yes, and how many primary dealers are foreign entities?

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:17 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

it's a "fat bald thing" apparently.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:01 | Link to Comment Biff Malibu
Biff Malibu's picture

you're very new here aren't you.  Put on your dunce cap and take a seat up at the front.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:01 | Link to Comment Biff Malibu
Biff Malibu's picture

you're very new here aren't you.  Put on your dunce cap and take a seat up at the front.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 23:19 | Link to Comment Betty Swallsack
Betty Swallsack's picture

Seems to be an echo

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 04:39 | Link to Comment Dugald
Dugald's picture

No no, he stutters a bit......

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 11:15 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

The NSA bots are still under development.......should be a lot more reliable as time goes by.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:04 | Link to Comment Rynak
Rynak's picture

Those anti-tyler troll-posts are getting repetitive.... can't you folks at least employ more than one contractor to write them, so that we can have some diversity in rethorics?

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:11 | Link to Comment Richard Whitney
Richard Whitney's picture

Your remarks are characteristic of degenerate, mephitic European 'thinking'. You are doomed. You blame the Anglo-Saxon world for all of your own self-inflicted misfortunes.

 

 

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:33 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

I love the smell of complete and total worldwide economic collapse on a Friday evening.

I can finally say it; I TOLD YOU SO!

Dont worry about more wars, the sheeple can't even pay back the debt  they already owe.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 23:10 | Link to Comment J 457
J 457's picture

I love the smell of complete and total worldwide economic collapse on a Friday evening.

Wheres the collapse?  Seems this downgrade was already discussed last Friday, and today seemed a non-event.

That's a far cry from worldwide economic collapse.  ES almost green when downgrade announced.

 

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 23:25 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

It's priced in!  Carry on!

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 11:24 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

And the final price is............

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 11:19 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

The final price is zero.

 

On a long enough time-line the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

 

I think I read that somewhere.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 00:42 | Link to Comment The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

You must be a time traveler from Pompei.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 01:20 | Link to Comment chinaguy
chinaguy's picture

The trolling comes hot & heavy as the MSM & their handlers realize that this was all reported WEEKS ago & maybe it's time to overweight hashing the "fringe bloggers" .

a big HAW Haw! to all you troll motherfuckers & how cheap do you sell your cunts for?

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 03:29 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

Why is this video not on the front page of ZH for the whole weekend?

Ron Paul's Spirit Visits the Texas Republican Senatorial Debate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwVxec6uesA&feature=player_embedded#!

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 04:51 | Link to Comment zhandax
zhandax's picture

this was all reported WEEKS ago

I have to admit, as I read the actual FAQ, I was wondering whether Tyler had been moonlighting over at S&P or if he had a nice plagiarism suit.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:19 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

we're the MSM now. while i will make an exception for CNN...that's it.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 05:41 | Link to Comment Dubious Intentions
Dubious Intentions's picture

Rust damage of the structural steel of a bridge can go unnoticed for quite some time...

...until it collapses and kills all those unfortunate enough to find themselves on it at the time.

Cheers

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:43 | Link to Comment ViewfromUnderth...
ViewfromUndertheBridge's picture

...or under it.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:29 | Link to Comment Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Jeeesus!  Remember back in the day when the left derided us and wondered why we could not be more like the Europeans.  I am reminded of an old idea. At some point you run out of other people's money.  Stolen from M.T.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 19:09 | Link to Comment bombimbom
bombimbom's picture

note to himself: reasons for gratuitous hate - europe being an example for american leftists. rightists hate leftists. libertarians even more.

it must be because of the fact most of europeans didn't forget nor ignore the fact that man is a social animal and community/society is a natural part of men. so, welfare is not really political (political is how and how much) for most of us, it's something that has to be. it's civilization. (a propos, remember, out of your exquisite, albeit socialist, altruism, to tell americans not to hold their breath waiting for european welfare to cease to exist).

 

 

 

 

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:59 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

At least he is not as bad as the anonymous troll who endlessly and mindlessly drones on about his nonsensical "US Citizenism".

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 00:01 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Akak, Mr. Anonymous might rankle the ZH rank and file, but his comments apply to the Average joe really really well. it is truth told bitterly, again and again. And it's true. The world is un-fortunately, living the American Nightmare.

You hate it, I hate it, everyone hates it. And the citizenry looks guilty by sins of omission. It's true all around, but unfortunately, at this time, Usrael has the world by the cajones.

And as for the EUSRAEL attack on sovereignity, clearly ratings agencies, so thoroughly dis-credited, are tools or weapons even. The goal, direction....all clear as day.

ori

-vishwakarmas-pyr-cone-amid/

 

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 05:06 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

While Mr. Anonymous' comments have some validity when leveled against the US government, I must strongly disagree with, and take offense at, his inane and ludicrous broad-brushing in implying that those policies are somehow not just reflective of, but the direct and inherent product of, ALL Americans collectively, a sweeping accusation which he hurls in virtually every sentence he writes under the nonsensical and meaningless rubric of "US Citizenism" --- as if merely being a US citizen automatically entails adherence (and UNANIMOUS adherence at that) to some dark and evil ideology, the existence of which he constantly claims, but the details or even outline of which he can never seem to describe or explain. 

This poster is a collectivist in the truest and most pernicious sense of the word, ignorantly and irrationally accusing EVERY citizen of the United States for the actions of its oligarchic, unaccountable federal government.  If that is not blind and unjust stereotyping, not to mention a complete failure of elementary reason and logic, I don't know what is.  It would be fair play if this AnAnonymous told me which nation HE is a citizen of, so that I could blame HIM for all that government's policy failures and faults.  But being sensible and rational, I would not do so.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 06:34 | Link to Comment mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

Ya, I'm sure the country he's from is "utopia".

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 09:02 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

C'mon akak, which country is riding the world rough-shod right now? Are it's citizens complicit or not? Who is the Army composed of? Who is pulling the triggers? Who is flying the drones? Who did Abu Gharib? Who pisses on dead opponent's bodies?

Who did Vietnam? Korea? Napalm? Agent Orange? On and on.

Un-deniable, no? Deal with it, your country is the scrouge of the world right now, whether by proxy for some demented Eu driven ancient history or following it's own demented script for manifest destiny.

ori

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 11:03 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, damn ORI...I thought you guys said shape shifting reptilians or jooos were behind all this...its hard to keep it straight without the proper program guide...lol.

This half hearted outrage of Marines pissing on the heads of dead Taliban has me a little perplexed though...in light of many posters around here professing evil must be killed by a good hanging from the nearest lampost.

Where is the moral indignation when the Taliban kills women for simply showing their face or doesn't "fight hard enough" against a rapist (honor killing) or keeps little girls from learning to read & write?

Or when they chop off someones very much live head instead of just pissing on a dead one?

The silence is always deafening ;-)

And what were the cirumstances involved with this particular group of dead Talis...that is, how did they come to be dead? What had they done earlier in the day or week  to warrant such an affectionate send off party to paradise?

Inquiring minds...

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 12:09 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

NM, always interesting to see where people's biases are. You say end the FED but buy the MIC lies? Is your Lielihood dependent on wars continuing? 

Did Jay Leno's wife convince yuo of the horror of Afghani women, or was it NAtional Geographic NM, because I'm damn sure you've never been there.

You cherry picked, weakens your stance completely.

Agree to disagree on this. Strange though.

How is the post Spill Gulf Nm? Thriving again? Was it all hype?

Do tell.

ori

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:57 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Post spill is fine. Its was bad but not the world shattering event many predicted. Goin fishin tomorrow as a matter of fact.

"...always interesting to see where people's biases are."

Yes indeed. Not unlike the caste system one could suppose ;-)

I'm already on the record (as you know) as saying we should no longer be in Afghanistan and I've stated my reasons why. Hardly supportive of the MIC's "cause" I would say.

Jay Leno's wife?...NG?...lol..I note you chose not to respond to what the Taliban calls "normal" operating procedure. But by your inference, I have to take it you have been with them yourself and can categorically dispute anything I said. But you chose otherwise.

So we will agree to disagree...on something not quite nailed down yet...lol.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:19 | Link to Comment mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Thanks, NM.  Good post.  I'm not quite sure I understand the double and triple and infinity standards that the USA is held to.  Dragging our dead bodies through the streets, decapitating our live heads off of our live bodies on television,  hanging us from whatever's handy and dancing around like wild indians, ...

We are not saints.  No, no we aren't...  and we may or may not be complicit or even responsible for the world's wars.  But regardless, when we get read the Riot Act for peeing while they're busy with public beheadings, it's incomprehensible how we turn even on ourselves at times such as these. 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 15:33 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

I would get my head straight about this

we may or may not be complicit or even responsible for the world's wars.

before I began to make my mind up about anything else.

perspective.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 16:21 | Link to Comment mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

"Getting your head straight" on that is not even worth trying for at least another hundred years or so.  If such a thing were possible, I would agree with you.  But it takes a long, long time to accurately write history.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 23:08 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

has it ever happened?  the accurately written history, I mean. . .

I believe there are accurate accounts of amrka's military escapades written, and I'm sure you'd agree there are many contradictory reports - I guess it's down to each of us to decide which versions support our differing points of view. . .

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 04:13 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

CA, it seems we are Sysiphus here. Up goes the boulder. Down comes the boulder.

Perhaps we need to get bolder. Fascinating change in the tone here, overall. Tells me Jingosim is a-coming.

ori

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 17:15 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

"We are not saints.  No, no we aren't..."

Exactly. We are not. Some things that happen in a war should stay right there, in the war.

Countries retain the prerogative to go to war anytime, for any reason.

To try and equate pissing on a dead Talis head to what the Taliban do to others while they are still alive is like trying to equate a high school boys prank to Hitler...its off by a few orders of magnitude.

None of us here will be the ones to judge why they did it. It could be they were tracking these guys for doing some pretty inhumane things to the living. They will be punished for breaking military regs, imposed by our military on itself. As much for the stupidity of filming themselves doing it as anything else.

But it certainly doesn't rise to the level of brutality the Taliban has meted out in the past or that they still do now.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:37 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

nmewn said:

To try and equate pissing on a dead Talis head to what the Taliban do to others while they are still alive is like trying to equate a high school boys prank to Hitler...its off by a few orders of magnitude.

You're absolutely right. You're also smart enough to know that every group which is engaged in a power struggle quickly learns that propaganda is a powerful and effective tool. Every propaganda victory that we give to the Taliban (and that's exactly what this was) results in more loss of life, both American and Afghani.

How many additional Americans will come home in a box just because this incident tipped a few marginal Afghanis toward the decision to become suicide bombers? Sure, most of them will just see this as further evidence that Americans are hypocritical assholes, but a few of them living on the fringes of society (and we're talking the fringes of Afghanistan here, waaaaay out on the margin) who would otherwise have likely died from opiate addiction or inter-tribal warfare will be prompted by this incident to give their pathetic life meaning by way of martyrdom.

"Sorry kids, daddy isn't coming home. Those idiots pissing on the corpses was enough to drive Ahmed the heroin addict over the edge, so he blew himself up, along with your daddy and a dozen other people."

None of us here will be the ones to judge why they did it. It could be they were tracking these guys for doing some pretty inhumane things to the living.

That could very well be the case. It could also be the case that they were a handful of psychopaths that killed some yak herders and then got off on the idea of being youtube celebrities. We don't know, and likely never will.

But it certainly doesn't rise to the level of brutality the Taliban has meted out in the past or that they still do now.

Again, you are correct. The culture of the Taliban is brutal and violent, and we both find it repugnant and backwards. That's because we hold ourselves to a higher standard, as do the vast majority of our military personnel, and that is something we can be proud of. Trying to live up to high standards takes both effort and courage. I think you'll agree that this incident is a slap in the face to every man and woman in our military that puts forth the courage and effort every day to live up to our standards.

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 20:41 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

mtomato2 said:

I'm not quite sure I understand the double and triple and infinity standards that the USA is held to.

We're not held to a double standard, we hold ourselves to a higher standard, as we should.

 

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 23:50 | Link to Comment mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Yeah.  Obviously.

Also obviously, I thought, was the fact that I was referring to the standards to which OTHERS hold us.

My point was that regardless of the height of standard we self-impose, it will never be high enough for the rest of the world.

Peace.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 11:51 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

ORI said:

C'mon akak, which country is riding the world rough-shod right now?

I would phrase the question differently and, moreover, as a set of questions.

Which country has, for the past century, had its government subverted, manipulated, infiltrated, and controlled by powerful international financiers who, being above such quaint notions as nation states, have allegiance to no nation?

Which nation has served, and continues to serve, as a very successful test platform for the propaganda theories of Edward Bernays?

Which country has built up a system of mandatory indoctrination called public education in order to shackle its citizens with imaginary freedom, condition its citizens to be distrustful and suspicious of genuine freedom, perpetuate the myth that that nation is, and has always been, the "good guys", and deify the nation's founders while obfuscating their views on liberty, views which would now earn them rendition to a foreign gulag for "enhanced interrogation"?

Which country has, for the last sixty years, deployed the single most effective brainwashing tool ever devised (television) and wrapped it in enough vapid entertainment that a majority of its citizens voluntarily purchase the propaganda infrastructure and submit to a lifelong regimen of daily indoctrination?

(For those with three and a half minutes to spare, Frank Zappa's 1973 song "I'm the Slime" is as succinct and profound a description of television I've ever seen.)

Which nation's occupational government has diligently and desperately kept its citizens divided into multiple groups of manufactured ideology and used wedge issues to train these groups into believing that the other groups (or, occasionally, wicked foreign bogeymen) are the cause of all their problems?

Are it's citizens complicit or not?

That's a very good question. It is undeniable that some of its citizens certainly are complicit. The media are a big part of the problem, as they are the ones which provide the prescribed sedation. This is why it was important that the media were absorbed into the power structure. The politicians are certainly to blame, and this points out one of the biggest flaws of democracy: those who actively seek to attain power are invariably the worst people to wield power.

When it comes to citizens outside of the power structure, the question becomes more complex. If you are asleep and dreaming, and in the dream you kill a villain, does that make you a murderer? Many Americans are living in a dream not of their making and have no idea that they are asleep. The problem is that their actions in this dream state have real consequences and affect other people, often resulting in pain, misery, destruction, and death.

Who is pulling the triggers? Who is flying the drones? Who did Abu Gharib? Who pisses on dead opponent's bodies?

While it can't be denied that some of the people doing these things are sociopaths and were drawn to this field of work by their love of human suffering, I believe that the majority of them genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the good of their country. They don't understand that their actions are harming and undermining their country and its constitution because they have been kept asleep. They are not sheeple - they are sleeple.

The biggest fear of the occupational government in Vichy, D.C., is the awakening of the sleeple, especially those in the military. Once awake, the former sleeple would turn on the Vichy occupiers with an unmerciful vengeance. This is why they are kept deployed overseas, isolated and controlled. This also explains the coordinated attacks on Ron Paul from both "liberal" and "conservative" media. Ron Paul is not the threat to the power structure, his message is the threat, because it has been waking people up.

The best hope for the future of the people of America, and indeed the people of the world, is for all of us who have awakened to continue to try to awaken those who are still sleeping. We must remain cognizant of the strong forces which continually try to lull us back to sleep and we must also recognize that the best of us can be subject to periodic drowsiness.

In the words of Grand Funk Railroad,

"Some folks need an education,

don't give up or we'll lose the nation."

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 12:05 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

hey The4thS, thanks for that awesome response.

ori

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:00 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

"occupational government in Vichy, D.C"

+ 10e infinity for that analog.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:50 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

nice and catchy! +1T

"They are not sheeple - they are sleeple." - "The biggest fear..." "...is the awakening of the sleeple"

I was writing here 2064447 something quite "complementary" imho:

...Now my two cents: we live in a global village where JoeSixPackUS is waking up and wonders why the city council charges him - and only him - for the costs of having JoeSoldierUS patrolling the village, when JackBankerMultinational and NancyCorpMultinational are making lots of dough thanks to that and paying no taxes at all, compared to him... well, yes, he has a retirement account with some shares of Jack and Nancy. But is this a good deal? Furious indignation follows with constant calculations, back and forth, including an increasing infatuations for speculation...

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:07 | Link to Comment FMR Bankster
FMR Bankster's picture

Well said. Words have power and that's why Ron Paul is attacked from both sides of the establishment. Simplified, as V said in the movie, "While there are some more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, if we want to know who's responsible we need only look in the mirror."

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:32 | Link to Comment mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Good  post, and +1000, except for the part about the founding fathers.  I'm reading about them, one at a time, right now.

There has never been anyone as excellent in character and moral fortitude as George Washington.  He was a miracle.  I could go on and on, but time and space don't permit me right now. 

I know it is ALWAYS in vogue to trash our founders these days.  I'd say most of the fodder is dredged up from the agenda-centric garbage of the MainStreamMedia, who have an avid interest in our hating ourselves.  (Calling Doctor ORI..)  I strongly encourage anyone who is tempted to jump on this bandwagon to actually engage in a little reading and thinking before doing so.

Hint:  Context is EVERYTHING!

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 15:41 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

hopefully you'll bear in mind that those who control the story - see 4thStooge above - are invested in the books that tell it - history may inspire you, but always know that it's someone else's story you're reading - who got left out of the story?  what's their story?

else you'll just be condemned to repeating, as history does tend to show.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 16:22 | Link to Comment mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

I read... a lot.

No one controls everything.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 16:41 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

mtomato2 said:

Good  post, and +1000, except for the part about the founding fathers.  I'm reading about them, one at a time, right now.

There has never been anyone as excellent in character and moral fortitude as George Washington.  He was a miracle.  I could go on and on, but time and space don't permit me right now.

I apologize if I wasn't quite clear in what I said:

"Which country has built up a system of mandatory indoctrination called public education in order to (...) deify the nation's founders while obfuscating their views on liberty, views which would now earn them rendition to a foreign gulag for "enhanced interrogation"?"

What I am saying is that the public education indoctrination system has put the founders of the United States on a pedestal, but deliberately hides the founders' views on liberty, because those views are dangerous to the current power structure. It's analogous to the way that a large swath of Christianity will cherry pick verses from the Bible to justify persecution, hatred, killing, and war, while ignoring, subverting, and going against the actual teachings of Christ.

If George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, or, for that matter, Jesus Christ, were to return to Earth, they would quickly be branded as "terrrists" and sent to Guantanamo for eternity. If Jesus were to shout, "Father, awaken them, for they know not what they do," as he was dragged away to a one-way rendition flight, none of the media would report it.

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 19:31 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Awesome series of posts you have in this thead, FourthStooge --- bravo!

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 23:53 | Link to Comment mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

I agree.  I much enjoy the banter he enables between us all.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:36 | Link to Comment palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

akak said:

This poster is a collectivist in the truest and most pernicious sense of the word, ignorantly and irrationally accusing EVERY citizen of the United States for the actions of its oligarchic, unaccountable federal government.

These are not so much accusations as they are projections of his own Borg-hive mentality onto the threat of individuality to his collectivist programming.  He is a pure cultist, unable to think for himself outside of the special Jonestown colony that controls his mind and what passes for his soul.

He is a Troll and an Op(erative) making him, simply, a TrollOp...the biggest type of whore on the Internet...

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 23:40 | Link to Comment agNau
agNau's picture

Give much thought to your screen name?

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 01:42 | Link to Comment sgorem
sgorem's picture

#1 leave our tylers alone. #2 tell US something we don't already know. #3 what the fuck is your question btw? "If EU goes down-mark my words: US EMPIRE goes with it".  Kinda like "sticks and stones will break my bones, yadda, yadda, yadda". jeeeeesh..............

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 02:44 | Link to Comment terryfuckwit
terryfuckwit's picture

Tylers attack all nations governments and bankers with fairly equal measure..

 

amen

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 02:54 | Link to Comment Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

You are so shooting into the dark way off the mark a tyler didn't even bother to try to fix you.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 03:15 | Link to Comment lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

we already know we're going down; except, we smiling, cause we gots guns an golds :) see my smile.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 07:08 | Link to Comment bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Not only lots of gold, but also lots of guns here in Europe, despite what Americans think ...

25 million privately-owned handguns, rifles and shotguns in Germany

19 million private civilian-owned firearms in France

... and so on (1.9 million civilian guns in our tiny Belgium, too ... great American gun designer John Browning died in Belgium, while we were manufacturing his later products when he had trouble being backed in the USA).

Certainly the USA is #1 in gun ownership, and in Europe we do not carry them around, but our civilian 'militia' is well-armed enough for a decent dust-up if the Nazis or someone similar come back. - And meanwhile, we Europeans are much better at protests - hitting the streets in demonstrations, general strikes, and shutting governments down.

This is a site with information about gun laws, gun ownership, how many millions of guns owned, and so on, in countries around the world:

http://www.gunpolicy.org/

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 07:58 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"Europeans are much better at protests" - +1T. hell, it's a lifestyle for some here!

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 09:49 | Link to Comment Fred C Dobbs
Fred C Dobbs's picture

Good luck to you Brussels.  Thanks for posting.  

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 07:42 | Link to Comment bombimbom
bombimbom's picture

That the Tylers hate anything european was apparent since long ago. it's not only because of what and how much they say, it's how they say it. you can perceive the love from the chosen words. you can perceive the sadist sexual arouse.  :)

of course the root motive is simply a mix of incomprehensible envy, foolish confrontation and political issues. if europe dies, welfare state dies. at least, in their minds. btw just guessing, i really don't know or care.

now they have fully joined mainstream medias on their task to divert the attention from USUK's problem.

don't get too angry, remember: "he who laughs last, laughs best."

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 07:55 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"if europe dies, welfare state dies" well put - though one Tyler just shortly made a comment of Bismark-style Social Security being now 160 years old - which is something that might gnaw at the confidence that "this must all fall", particularly when you study it and find out this kind of schemes have a propensity of dying (wars, defaults and such) and being set up again and again and again...

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:48 | Link to Comment Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture

First rule of ZH. Know what the fuck you're talking about. By the way, I don't obey the first rule of Fight Club. I tell anybody that will listen about it.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 01:54 | Link to Comment Tyranny is Love
Tyranny is Love's picture

The timing hangs on whether Obama is meant to be a two term President or there for just one.

if just one the it crashes and burns May/June so the next guy can fix the problem. Otherwise they will use the middle class's wealth  (and the future generations) to buy time until October the war collapse and blame it all on Iran.

 

roll in the solution, which the people are begging for, and hit reset. less every one that died in the war plus those that starved to death when the bulk tankers carrying the food didn't sale. not much food held in the worlds reserves most of it is just in time delivery.

 

can someone tell me how many days of food is in reserve globally? I think its averaged at 28 days.

 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 07:28 | Link to Comment zhandax
zhandax's picture

The better question is how many days of food are in reserve locally?  Are you dependent on the supermarket?  Grow any?  Have friends who do?   Are you one of those people with a half pound of 6-month-old velveta and 3 beers in the fridge?

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 08:24 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

They were there last night... But this morning I woke up & they had mysteriously vanished!

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:15 | Link to Comment hunglow
hunglow's picture

Is it fuzzy and need of a shave?

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:04 | Link to Comment YBNguy
YBNguy's picture

Beware the Ides of March... and zombie Osama!

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:32 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

"The Guns of Fiat" by Barbara Tuchman Bernake

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 18:39 | Link to Comment General Decline
General Decline's picture

"The Dogs of Lust" by The The?

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 23:33 | Link to Comment TwelfthVulture
TwelfthVulture's picture

25% of the American voting public will not remember that he was already killed and buried at sea, and

26% of the American voting public will say, "Aha, I told you so, it was a 'false flag event.'"

In any event, 51% of the American voting public will fall for it.  Just like they fall every election cycle for the idea that they are voting for a candidate that represents their interests.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 00:49 | Link to Comment Yamaha
Yamaha's picture

You are forgetting he will also receive his second peace prize! Another Europeanian FUCK UP!

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:30 | Link to Comment The Limerick King
The Limerick King's picture

 

 

Could this be all part of a plan?

Is Genocide Ben still a man?

Do Banksters all lie?

Does Dolly still dye?

Will the shit soon be hitting the fan?

 

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:42 | Link to Comment CClarity
CClarity's picture

OT - Did any of you other ZHers get a load of emails from info@zerohedge today?  Mine informed me of new member role - coded by precious metals depending on points.  I suspect a hack job, but they did have my correct name and email.  Feels like Stratfor again.  Anyone else?  Thanks!

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:00 | Link to Comment Mariposa de Oro
Mariposa de Oro's picture

I got the same. I have no idea why or what it means

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:22 | Link to Comment CClarity
CClarity's picture

I sent a message via twitter asking, and posted here.  Can't find anyway to write to zh direct and I don't want to hit reply on these emails.  Said I was now qualified for Silver and Copper status, but no idea what that means or accesses.  Like I said, I suspect their email and account info has been hacked since the correct email address meshed with my account name - and that randomly wouldn't happen.  Concerned for ZH as well as for us.  If same folks that hacked Stratfor, they nailed the servers and put them essentially out of business for a couple weeks.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 00:18 | Link to Comment Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

I got them as well- but they were followed by a message from Sacriledge.  

Doesn't appear to be anything sinister, just a new feature that got rolled out a little prematurely.  We'll see soon enough, I'm sure.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 04:51 | Link to Comment Dugald
Dugald's picture

Yup me toooooo, bin promoted to Copper, Silver and Gold in one hit, last time that happend I was made Sergeant in one fell swoop, took three days of grog to get past that one. Didn't last I told an officer his ideas were crap, they made me a private quick smart, such is life!

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:56 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

ooohhhhh, happened to me too, up to Platinum and First Lieutenant...

perhaps I had too little grog (in my case it was whiskey, though) with me

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:02 | Link to Comment Bindar Dundat
Bindar Dundat's picture

Count me in, I was sent an email   I am now a member of Cooper , what ever the FUXX that is.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:22 | Link to Comment CClarity
CClarity's picture

Check again.  Was it Copper?  Still don't know what the flip that is - - - though the precious metals theme seems appropriate for ZH

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:29 | Link to Comment Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

Same her...WTF?

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:29 | Link to Comment Kayman
Kayman's picture

Me too. Copper, Silver, Gold.  It is all bullshit.  Just a test run before the information blackout.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:33 | Link to Comment Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture

wait for it...

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:32 | Link to Comment CClarity
CClarity's picture

Tyler?   And now I just got an email from "Sacriledge" supposedly at ZH.  Previous emails addressed me as CClarity. This one says the following.  Still feeling hacked.  Let us know on main page ZH.

 Hello,

Unfortunately, while working on some exciting new features in our development environment, you were contacted by our automated systemsalerting you to an upgrade in user status. While we’re looking forward to implementing this, and other free user features in the future, this currently isn’t available in production.

 

 

 

To help prevent such things from happening again, we’ve removed user email addresses from the development database, and shut down our CMS’s internal messaging system.

 

 

If you have any questions about this, or about any other aspect of ZH, please don’t hesitate to contact me!

  Best,  Sacrilege. 

 


 


 

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:44 | Link to Comment The Profit Prophet
The Profit Prophet's picture

Sacriledge codes for ZH....sounds like a system glitch during development.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:48 | Link to Comment Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture

He does.
It is.

I asked him to drop us a line here to prove it.

Give it a few minutes... then panic bitches!

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:48 | Link to Comment CClarity
CClarity's picture

That is what I hope.  Thank you Profit Prophet.  

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:53 | Link to Comment Sacrilege
Sacrilege's picture

CClarity, 

It was a code glitch. We weren't hacked. We're developing new stuff for the users, and sometimes in doing so, there is an error here or there; I'm just sorry this one was so public. 

 

-sac. 

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:57 | Link to Comment Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture

You may now return to your normal programming bitchez

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:18 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Programming bitchez....sounds like some PUA stuff.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:42 | Link to Comment Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture

Interesting.

Not my bag, though.

I operate water treatment plants, and lose things in boat accidents.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:46 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Dude, chicks dig motorboats!

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 23:06 | Link to Comment CClarity
CClarity's picture

 Ahhhh, my son doesn water treatment plants too.  Treatment and backflow licenses, and desal stuff.  And brews beer.  So far, not with reclammated water  or grey.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 02:05 | Link to Comment GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

I'm a python and ruby engineer and would love to help out with ZH. I don't know your framework but if you need help let me know.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:59 | Link to Comment Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture

*echo from the TV in the back bedroom*

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:59 | Link to Comment CClarity
CClarity's picture

Thank you and good luck fixing the glitch!  Relieved it isn't something that would impair this excellent site with its nearly real time information that is so much better than anything else out there. Keep up the good work and I look forward to the enhancements when they're ready.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:00 | Link to Comment Mariposa de Oro
Mariposa de Oro's picture

Mystery solved, lol. ZHers are a paranoid bunch. I say this with all affection. :o)

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:06 | Link to Comment Sacrilege
Sacrilege's picture

Hah! I know, right? "Your role has been upgraded" response: "Something must be terribly wrong!"

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:17 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

We're all gonna die!

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:30 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

What is this avatar?  It conjures up the CFR logo. 

http://www.mainemediaresources.com/mpl_whitehorse.htm

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:48 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

12 Monkeys

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 23:45 | Link to Comment sampo
sampo's picture

I guess Blythe has to occupy several dozens of monkeys, concerning the matters to be faced not in the so far future..

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 22:20 | Link to Comment Mariposa de Oro
Mariposa de Oro's picture

Totally understandable these days, eh?  Lots of fraud and watch lists around.  Just gotta laugh at the reaction.  A hack was my first thought when I saw the emails.  I then forwarded to two other Zhers to get their thoughts.  I'm still laughing at myself.  Thanks for the excitement today.

:o)

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 23:55 | Link to Comment Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Whoever rooted the servers leaves a few comments in the pits and everyone is relieved? Shame. Shhhaaaaaaameee.

Listen. BURN EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 00:20 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

I was gonna burn everything but then I remembered last week you told me if I wasn’t a slave I’d be out there fighting. 

So I loaded up with every type of firearm ever referenced in the Zero Hedge comments section and scurried on down to Dupont Circle, crying out that anyone who didn’t join me was a slave.

 And yet, Conrad, you were no where to be found. 

 Can you say hollow words?  Yes. 

 Do you deserve a Katy Perry video?  Indeed.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ShTYMMjQ0

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 00:22 | Link to Comment Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Nah.  I'm an "essential war worker."  They'll just chain me to a PC in an office and give me caffeine.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 00:37 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Nice post Prom.  Your point is well-taken.

Remember that they = you...LOL!  They didn't chain you to a PC and you chose to suck down that last cup of coffee. 

You do it to yourself, you do.  And that's what really hurts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_qMagfZtv8&ob=av2e

Anyhow, tomorrow will bring more bad news out of Europe, Tyler and friends will continue to be the best source of news on the web, and the grey bag-head-spambots will keep overwhelming this site.  As cliched as it is: It is what it is.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 01:00 | Link to Comment Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Sadly, it's all true, Vic.

I'm coming around to "Looking with Amazement"'s POV.  Boring world we live in.

Doesn't stop me from stacking silver, canned goods and ammo for a rainy day, though.  One day, it will stop being boring, and then it'll be interesting- for better or for worse.

I've got my reasons for doing what I do, and it's not an easy choice- just the best I can do for now.  Tomorrow will bring new choices.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 11:48 | Link to Comment Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture

+1 to all of that.

This little mystery was easily resolved by just hitting the "reply" button. There was nothing to lose at that point anyway, my "real" name was already in the open.

Clay's rule for interweb info gathering after possible exposure:
check your six, then go straight to the source.

C'mon folks, if one tenth of the stuff that gets prognosticated on this site comes to pass, yer gonna need a set that clank when you walk.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 01:50 | Link to Comment sgorem
sgorem's picture

well i feel left fucking out! hope i wind up in the gold tier, i've been trying to keep it fucking  respectable.......

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 02:12 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

And yet no one has ever read or cared about anything you said. 

Nice work with the bold however, frutie.  When you pass from this plane of existence, pls let me say a few words. Tnx.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 02:24 | Link to Comment OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

My email said I was in the dipshit tier.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 04:16 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

The kneejerk reaction to your comment is: let the record show that that email was correct.

However I would also ask everyone to ruminate on this:

Zero Hedge has been around for three years.  Sure, the cool kids were reading ZH three years ago and many have already bailed on this site.  Yet the ‘sheeple’ are just about ready to start reading here.  Why do you think ZH is being inundated with the kind of nonsense we see per “OldPhart”?

Tyler: your site is more important and relevant than ever and as such it is being overwhelmed by forces trying to derail it.  I’m seeing something so I’m saying something.

I'm sure others can top this idea: but why not only let those who have been members since 2010 comment?  Myself and some others would be excluded but I would happily give up the chance to comment ever again if it meant not being subjected to all the garbage this site gets hit with.

As powerful as your articles are, the comments section used to be just as powerful if not more so.  Please don't let it get overrun by this noise.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 04:21 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Just to hammer the point home: if you ain't ahead of the curve, you are behind it. 

I'd rather see six voices I trust comment on an article than 90 whose voices I have to sort through. 

Why give us such quality news coverage/writing and let spambots/paid operatives overrun the site?  It makes no sense.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 10:09 | Link to Comment Melin
Melin's picture

must...shut...down...ideas...with...which...I....disagree...

What does it mean to 'overrun" the site?  I read almost everything posted here and the site was never "overrun" to the point I was unable to read them.  The reason the collectivists want to ban ideas from regular discourse (PC, anyone?) is so that some ideas never get aired and discussed openly.  Agendas remain hidden. 

Best to know the dopey lines of argument the collectivists/statists use in order to combat them. 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:00 | Link to Comment Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture

"I read almost everything posted here"

I love the site too, but you need to get laid.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 14:02 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

melin, you are right with "dopey lines of argument of the collectivists/statists"

I have not read any arguments from them that were not dopey - here

but I can tell you, there are some out there that would quite shake the currently firm grounds of your beliefs

what you call "collectivism" is a strong force - perhaps even "built in and part of the human nature"

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 12:07 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Vic Vinegar squirted out the following through a Fleet nozzle:

why not only let those who have been members since 2010 comment?

Fuck off, douchebag!


Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:37 | Link to Comment TGR
TGR's picture

The self-appointed ZH mall-cop deserves some credit though for his suggestion that he himself be excluded from commenting. 

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 07:10 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Meh, be glad that no one here can whack your peepee...

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 13:54 | Link to Comment Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture

A glitch in the Matrix?!?!

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 21:49 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Doubtful.  It sounds like bullshit just like our new Copper status on ZH.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 01:01 | Link to Comment Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

They only gave you a copper, Vic?

That doesn't sound right- you've been around the block here more than a few times.

Sat, 01/14/2012 - 01:38 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

I got silver and gold too as we all did.  I just referenced the Copper status b/c :a) it’s funny and b) I never made a comment here that was all that great.  Copper status for me it is.

One more thought from my ZH uncle before I bounce:

To paraphrase Willie S., "What's in a name? That which we call a default by any other name (devaluation) would smell as bitter."

It's not a surprise to anyone, other than the truly brain dead, that the US is heading towards default. And it's not really a mystery as to which form it fill take: devaluation.

So we all know the score. Since financial assets, including equities, MBS and Ts will appreciate in proportion to $USD devaluation, these assets classes no longer provide any meaningful measurement of economic health.

At this point, it's really just a waiting game till the SHTF. Actually, it's a good time to continue making preparations for the upcoming social chaos.

At a macro level, someone really had to hate us pretty badly to treat us this poorly. What did we ever do to them? Or do stupid victims, like our typical US citizens, deserve their fate because they are so pitifully stupid? What goes through the minds of psychopaths who enjoy torturing others just because they can? Will there be justice or will they get away with their crimes against humanity?

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/sprott-surreality-check-part-two-dead-government-walking

If it is just a waiting game until the SHTF then I guess I'm just here to get my panties in a bunch over the grey-bag-spambots and learn a few more things along the way.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!