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Referendum Day To Decide Greek's Future Is 12/4

Tyler Durden's picture


Just headlines, via Bloomberg, for now as Juncker and Sarkozy play good-cop / bad-cop:








and then Angie butted in:







Christine then added, rather passive-aggressively (given out earlier note on Greek maturities):


Initial reaction is ES selling off 3-4pts and very slight downtick in EUR

UPDATE: ES -6pts and EUR -35pips - some CONTEXT for where markets stand based on ES rally today as broad risk-assets generally sold off:


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Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:32 | 1838963 Mongo
Mongo's picture

This is so coordinated. Papandreou doesn't do anything without approval from the suits at IMF

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:42 | 1838994 dlmaniac
dlmaniac's picture


Last thing I remember I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
'Relax,' said the nightman
'We are programmed to receive.'
'You can check out anytime you like but ...'

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:50 | 1839029 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

They who past reason and recovery are devoted to kingship perhaps will answer, that a greater part by far of the nation will have it so, the rest therefore must yield. Not so much to convince these, which I little hope, as to confirm them who yield not, I reply, that this greatest part have both in reason, and the trial of just battle, lost the right of their election what the government shall be: of them who have not lost that right, whether they for kingship be the greater number, who can certainly determine? Suppose they be, yet of freedom they partake all alike, one main end of government: which if the greater part value not, but will degenerately forego, is it just or reasonable, that most voices against the main end of government should enslave the less number that would be free? more just it is, doubtless, if it come to force, that a less number compel a greater to retain, which can be no wrong to them, their liberty, than that a greater number, for the pleasure of their baseness, compel a less most injuriously to be their fellow-slaves. They who seek nothing but their own just liberty, have always right to win it and to keep it, whenever they have power, be the voices never so numerous that oppose it. And how much we above others are concerned to defend it from kingship, and from them who in pursuance thereof so perniciously would betray us and themselves to most certain misery and thraldom, will be needless to repeat.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:01 | 1839081 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

Truly excellent and one of the best arguments against broad-based, popular democracy, such as we have here in the U.S.A., that I have read anywhere.  Who are you citing?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:07 | 1839095 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Extend and pretend, kick the can, wait 'em out, wear 'em down, spray and pray...


The EUR is as good as dead, unless Myanmar comes through with that big rescue package.

Wait, oh that's right...Germans are going to assume the debt of PIIGSFUK (PIIGS+France+UK). That shouldn't create a mathematical problem for Germany, and the ECB can always just print in Weimaresque fashion, until Europeans use wheelbarrels full of euros to buy a loaf of bread.

What's old is new again.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:10 | 1839105 Coast Watcher
Coast Watcher's picture

John Milton, "A Free Commonwealth," I think.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:15 | 1839119 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Yes, above is Milton, 1660.  Here is Patrick Henry arguing correctly but unsuccessfully against Virginia's ratification of the Constitution.  Things never change.

Will the adoption of this new plan pay our debts? This, sir, is a plain question. It is inferred that our grievances are to be redressed, and the evils of the existing system to be removed, by the new Constitution. Let me inform the honorable gentleman that no nation ever paid its debts by a change of government, without the aid of industry. You never will pay your debts but by a radical change of domestic economy. At present you buy too much, and make too little, to pay. Will this new system promote manufactures, industry, and frugality? If, instead of this, your hopes and designs will be disappointed, you relinquish a great deal, and hazard indefinitely more, for nothing. Will it enhance the value of your lands? Will it lessen your burdens? Will your looms and wheels go to work by the act of adoption? If it will, in its consequence, produce these things, it will consequently produce a reform, and enable you to pay your debts. Gentlemen must prove it. I am a skeptic, an infidel, on this point. I cannot conceive that it will have these happy consequences. I cannot confide in assertions and allegations. The evils that attend us lie in extravagance and want of industry, and can only be removed by assiduity and economy. Perhaps we shall be told by gentlemen that these things will happen, because the administration is to be taken from us, and placed in the hands of the few, who will pay greater attention, and be more studiously careful than we can be supposed to be.

With respect to the economical operation of the new government, I will only remark, that the national expenses will be increased; if not doubled, it will approach it very nearly. I might, without incurring the imputation of illiberality or extravagance, say that the expense will be multiplied tenfold. I might tell you of a numerous standing army, a great, powerful navy, a long and rapacious train of officers and dependants, independent of the President, senators, and representatives, whose compensations are without limitation. How are our debts to be discharged unless the taxes are increased, when the expenses of the government are so greatly augmented? The defects of this system are so numerous and palpable, and so many states object to it, that no union can be expected, unless it be amended.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:38 | 1839185 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

I salute you SWRichmond for bringing to our attention such a timeless piece of wisdom and commn sense.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 06:28 | 1840058 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

French and Germans make it sound like they are doing Greece a favor.....when in fact French are just bailing out their shitty banks for shitty loans to Greece and Germans just want to sell more of their shit to Greeks who can't afford it without getting more into debt.


Same bullshit in US folks. Instead of regime change due to reality surfacing and Americans revolting, China gives more debt to US Treasury, CONgress distributes it to populace so they can buy more MADE IN CHINA crap. US mismanagement class are just kicking the can down the road by giving debt addicts more debt just to stay in power. Meanwhile Chinese are building their knowhow in business and exports.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:54 | 1841013 Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

Yes, but it was ignored.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 23:20 | 1839789 bankruptcylawyer
bankruptcylawyer's picture

bullshit. democracy will not decide who is free and who are slaves. you can always get more than 50% of slaves to vote for their master. 

free men will decide by their actions who will be free or who will die fighting.

all this democracy bullshit. enough. it is a sideshow of nonsense. and just another lame excuse to bring in the riot police and military to repress the 49%.

but yea, voting plays well on the news when it serves the interests of the plutocracy. 


no more voting in greece.  it is time for violence. real violence. not just misdirected rioting.

everyone knows it. and it will stress allegiances in the military or require new ones, which is why you hear that story this week about a military leadership overhaul in greece.

the plutocracy will eventually have to turn greece into a country of shanty towns and barred up guarded fortress like housing complexes for the upper class. and then , the first attempt at a revolution will follow. 


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:42 | 1838996 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

I won't believe shit until I hear the confirmation from the Health Minister personally.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:21 | 1839134 moneyline
moneyline's picture

......hmmmmmmm. Didn't G-Pip say that that Greece found a few billion euro under a sofa in the Panthenon and that they had enough money to last until mid-Nov????? I guess they are going to "find" some money somewhere else????? I might just bailout of the markets all together. This whole thing is starting to sound like a set up before QE3 or something.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:47 | 1839407 Nobody special
Nobody special's picture

Sort of.  It was actually a box of billion euro notes dated 2012.  Apparently a print requisition from TPTB went out too early, so they just saved the notes for after the hyperinflation.  He's not allowed to spend them yet.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 22:27 | 1839675 MS7
MS7's picture

Although I was initially fooled by this move for a referendum, I think you are right. Most Greeks will likely vote to stay in the euro, thus giving away the one card (other than default within the euro zone) that they had.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 01:20 | 1839932 hpro123
hpro123's picture



First IMF says 6th Installment is Off the table until GPap figures out his referendum thing.


Then, 04:45 Athens time, Venizelos, Finance Minister and "Deputy Prime Minister", upon his return from Cannes,  posts in the Official Finance Ministry site that... HE IS OPPOSED to the REFERNDUM and is all for National Unity!!!


Stay tuned... 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:33 | 1838965 SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

Its like the 3 Stooges, they are all idiots who are playing us like a fiddle...

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:41 | 1838991 WestVillageIdiot
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They are more like pool sharks.  They let you have the feeling that they don't know what they are doing but in the end you know they are going to end up with all of your money. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:38 | 1838966 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Funny how a FRENCH decides when the GREEK referendum will be...

The greeks should tell Sarkozy to suck it and they'll do it when they'll do it and he has NO POWER OVER IT.

Little Napoleon can go to hell.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:44 | 1839002 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

The smell of feudalism fills the air.  The masters of the land are telling the peasants what they can and cannot do while the masters seize the harvest.

Ain't gonna work on Merkel's farm no more. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:49 | 1839020 Let them eat iPads
Let them eat iPads's picture

Day's never finished...

Massa' got me workin'....

Someday massa' set me free...

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:00 | 1839072 letitgo
letitgo's picture

Make sure you take a look at Sarko's pretty angry reply to the French-speaking reporter who suggested they were meddling in Greece's affairs.  He basically said that they have enough to deal with in their own countries and aren't doing it out of pleasure.  Probably not too far wrong on that exist.  The rest of his reply talking about how the programs had worked in Spain, for example, were a little further from the mark.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:07 | 1839097 sitenine
sitenine's picture

Meanwhile, in Greece:

The dismissal of Greece’s top military chiefs has the opposition up in arms. With the Greek crisis worsening by the day, PM George Papandreou has been accused of trying to rein in the armed forces before a potential government collapse.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:15 | 1839292 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

That's the real question for any "western" government. 


When the shat hits the fan and "normal" civil society breaks down, who's in charge of what?


Questions like that are always answered with force.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 04:44 | 1840012 zuuuueri
zuuuueri's picture

the actual changes aren't to take effect for quite a while. The very top officers are all political appointments anyway and they get cycled in and out. It's the level or two below those guys who really run the military establishment, and any changes there are seldom published in any real way. 

no, the truth is that those in the halls of power in greece are completely, 100% out of touch with what's happening on the streets of the country. They are living in their own fantasy land, whose primary occupation is the import, manufacture, and export of more pipe dreams. The disconnect between the top echelon of politicos and the rest of the country is getting enormous now. 

I'd bet that there will be a set of institutions on paper labelled the greek government which are kept on life support for far longer than any of us would ever imagine rationally possible, still officially speaking on behalf of the nation, possibly still being 'elected' , while the reality on the ground drifts into a strange mix of local rule, quiet (not violent) anarchy/self rule, and miserable corruption.. different areas will have a different mix of the three..  



Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:56 | 1839058 YesWeKahn
YesWeKahn's picture

you got it wrong bro. It's the money who decides.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:02 | 1839084 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

you mean "the money printers who decide."

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:09 | 1839104 pacdm
pacdm's picture

I smell a rat and little French Rat at that and as for Germany they lost 2 World Wars so the people of Greece tell them to piss off. The rest of Europe need Greece to Default 100% put an end to the Euro for good.

I am from England i can smell the rat from here.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:33 | 1839523 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Funny how a FRENCH decides when the GREEK referendum will be...

No, it's funny when a Hungarian decides when the Minnesotan should call a referendum in Greece.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:36 | 1838975 qussl3
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Everyone is raising each other, but no one dares to call.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:45 | 1839007 WestVillageIdiot
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But that only happens during The Last Hand when nobody wants the game to end, everybody hoping they can recoup their losses in one fell swoop.  That seldom works out well. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:38 | 1838981 Bill D. Cat
Bill D. Cat's picture

Another month of this shit . Great .

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:52 | 1839044 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Not even...if they make it another week, it'll be a miracle. Credit markets are signaling some heavy weather, soon. Yo, Rome, batten down the hatches. 12/4? As if

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:38 | 1838984 kengland
kengland's picture

Take the money the greeks were set to borrow and fill the holes left in your banks. Kick the Greeks out and be done with it. If you are hell bent on borrowing your way out then just get it done for crying out loud. The market would absolutely start crying in celebration if they did that

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:39 | 1838985 New American Re...
New American Revolution's picture

I'LL CALL.   I've got a yo-yo with a broken string and 2 used popscycle sticks and I'm all in, and that's more than France has got.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:46 | 1839010 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Does that beat a used condom on a baguette? 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:56 | 1839059 fyrebird
fyrebird's picture

Not in France it don't.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:41 | 1839195 knukles
knukles's picture

OK, then a used condom with a hole in it and a half eaten sourdough baguette.


God, I just wish to fuck that somebody would embarass the living shit out of that short sawed off little shit Snarkozy so he'd have a coniption fit an d break down crying on the telly.

Why the fuck would any country join the EU just to wind up being bossed about and have it's pockets emptied by that little rodent?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:39 | 1838986 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

"Initial reaction is ES selling off 3-4pts and very slight downtick in EUR"

But I was watching metals a little while ago and they took a sudden jump.  This had to be the news that caused it.  If you were Greek wouldn't you be making sure that some of your savings were in shiny objects? 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:40 | 1838989 letitgo
letitgo's picture

Watching Sarkozy and Merkel live.  She just said that she'd prefer the Eurozone with Greece, rather than without them, but the German priority is a stable eurozone and this might require going without them.  Sarko is now backing her up in more vague terms.

So they're either playing hardball with Greece or finally recognising that they might be better off without them.

Surely this is bullish for the euro either way, but it's currently dropping.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:49 | 1839019 lolmao500
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but the German priority is a stable eurozone and this might require going without them.

You are sure they are not talking about Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Italy or France?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:53 | 1839046 letitgo
letitgo's picture

No, she was only talking about Greece.  A few minutes later Sarko proudly proclaimed how the programs were working in Ireland, Portugal and Spain.  It's just Greece.

Sorry if the use of the plural was confusing, I was translating from German on the fly.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:56 | 1839056 lolmao500
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No, it's just that my post was SARCASM... maybe it was lost in translation too.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:04 | 1839088 letitgo
letitgo's picture

No worries, but that was far too close to the true state of affairs to be read as sarcasm.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:53 | 1839214 tom a taxpayer
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Merkel may be letting the cat out of the bag. It should soon dawn on the rest of EU and the banking cartels that they can not tolerate a Greek referendum. Period. 

Not in January. Not in December. Not in November.

Regardless of whether the Greeks vote Yes or No on the referendum, the precedent set by having a REFERENDUM will strike a stake into the heart of the banking cartel vampire.

If Greece sets a precedent by voting on the Faustian bargain, TPTB know the game is up, and the Genie is out of the bottle, 

As soon as the EU, IMF, and G-20 wake from their last hurrah in Cannes, they will realize the ONLY solution that serves their Masters in the Banking Cartels, is to throw Greece out of the EU before the referendum.


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:52 | 1839428 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

Interesting observation, and probably true. Maybe it is all a setup to throw them out, to seem as if they are in control. Trouble is, you KNOW the banks have CDS exposure here that is far greater than the actual debt, plus they are so thin on capital that it won't take anything to send them into receivership. But Europe will survive without the current crop of bansk - new ones will spring up, and the cycle begin again. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:32 | 1839521 tom a taxpayer
tom a taxpayer's picture

Yes, it will be bitter medicine, even for the banks, but the alternative of allowing referendums, I think, is sure death to EU and the banks-as-we-know-them.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:40 | 1838990 Quantitative_Ap...
Quantitative_Appeasing's picture

Looking forward to the following headlines -






Followed by -








Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:47 | 1839013 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture




Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:51 | 1839037 Let them eat iPads
Let them eat iPads's picture

*France loses AAA rating

*France surrenders

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:08 | 1839100 adr
adr's picture

actually it is:

*Greeks vote no on bailout

*Greek no vote revoked by state official

*IMF says Greek losses have stabilized

*Greek referendum vote restored

*Market panics as Greece defaults

*Markets rise 8% in one day as Greek default upstageg by $5 trillion ECB bailout

*Markets plunge as ECB bailout hits court snag

*Greek default postponed as new Chinese bond program launced, futures rise

*Chinese plan backfires as Beijing announces no bond program exists

*Global leaders meet to discuss plan to rescue Greek default

*2016 US General election held

*Greek default vote once again looks likely

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:56 | 1839235 surf0766
surf0766's picture

If that happens I am calling out sick and drinking for 3 days. I figure 72 hours before the mass realizes what happened and begin demanding 24-7 DWS

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 04:24 | 1840006 theMAXILOPEZpsycho
theMAXILOPEZpsycho's picture


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:41 | 1838992 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

G-Pap is handing the manacles and keys to the Greek people and suggesting at the point of a gun that they chain themselves.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:41 | 1838995 chump666
chump666's picture

What the f*ck is up Sarkozy's a-hole?   That dickhead should be a lot more concerned that this coming winter France will grind to a halt i.e strikes galore, same with Germany.  Both countries have become arrogant and lazy.

Vote NO Greece, get your asses out of the EU. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:51 | 1839040 letitgo
letitgo's picture

The French are used to strikes and haven't actually had that many recently by their standards.  You won't see Germany grind to a halt, they don't know how.

Sarkozy's only problem is likely to be re-capitalising French banks.  Merkel's main problem will be dealing with any increase in the value of the euro when the weak links drop out and everyone else prints because of market turmoil.


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:06 | 1839093 chump666
chump666's picture

No Europe is done. The French will go into the cycle of riots/protests/striks and anything else, Germany are experts at rioting and the like.  The point is, both countries are almost 100% reliant on Chinese demand.  That is slowing to a possible halt.  The print jobs to date have been eye bleeding, and they have flopped each time (apart from the QE2 meltup 2009/2010).  The EZ/EU is gravely ill, say they get hit with with stagflation Europe will explode.  The Germans hate oil inflation as does the French.

This is the endgame, there is no infinity in markets, a beginning and an end.  We are close to the end.  If Europe goes + China hardlanding = Doomsday overkill.

In the meatime you got some nice volatlity/swing trades (news headlines). 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:20 | 1839132 letitgo
letitgo's picture

Some pretty ridiculous statements to back your outlandish claim that (all of) Europe is done.

Germany experts at rioting and the like!?!  Anything to back this up? You sure you're not thinking of the UK?  Real riots usually stem from unemployed youth.  German youth employment rates are the highest they've been since reunification.  Unlikely, to say the least.

Then you seem to be arguing that Europe is dead because of a Chinese hard-landing and US & UK money printing.  Maybe you should be focusing on China, the US and the UK instead, the EZ is hardly printing by comparison and there's no evidence of fake demand for German goods in Europe.

Both France and Germany almost 100% reliant on Chinese demand!?! No, Europe is actually a massive consumption market and China is much more dependent on European consumers than Germany is on China's consumers.  If you want to look at countries reliant on Chinese demand, cast your gaze in the direction of countries exporting minerals to them, particularly Australia.

You might be right that the markets are in for a crash, but that will actually cause much more trouble in the non-European G20 members than in Europe where, unlike elsewhere in western world, people aren't up to their eyeballs in personal debt with huge amounts of their wealth locked up in the stock and property markets.  Many people in Continental Europe couldn't care what happens to the markets, the shockwaves of any crash will be much larger elsewhere.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:40 | 1839192 chump666
chump666's picture

Germany and France both feed into the China luxury demand markets.  Been to China?  Seen the traffic jams of BMW's, Mercs etc etc etc.  Now look at CDS spreads on German/France which i might add are a c-hair away from contracting/recession. And there is no correlation? China crashes it will take out France and Germany in a second.

Look man, EU is kaput, if Greece goes, Italy will follow suit and will Spain and if Merkel gets kicked out - and she will at somepoint, Germany my also go.

As for riots, Germans lose that cheap EZ labor, China goes, oil inflation up...I'll bet you'll get riots.  Plus the Germans are locked in on a 40%+ tax to bailout zombies economies. The got shafted.

As far as France, same thing.   

Europe is 100% worst than the US. I mean the whole world is F*cked, but EZ is totally done. Sorry.  I mean you see the headlines, that's all we are trading on...and we are drifting lower.  Means?  Market is pricing the EU implosion.

That's life and life is pain.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:46 | 1839206 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

German export industry is well diversified, not so much dependent on China alone. And German labor is compared to their productivity one of the cheapest in the Euro zone, there is not even a minimum wage like in the US.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:09 | 1839470 fnord88
fnord88's picture

"German export industry is well diversified"


HAHAHAAAA You mean they loan the rest of the euro money so they can sell them stuff.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:48 | 1839568 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Somehow these export surpluses have to be funded, as long as others are not productive enough to have enough goods for exchange. Same problem here in US: trade deficit is funded by banks and foreigners.

Only banks can create credit, not people. Take a look at the shareholder structure of German companies. Foreigners hold a majority stake in most DAX companies. So the majority of profits flows out of the country.





Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:39 | 1839377 LeZinc
LeZinc's picture

Not to forget that the slogan "En France, on n'a pas de pétrole mais on a des idées" may have helped back in the 70s' oil crisis, but will have no effect in the face of the end of cheap oil. Its total dependance on oil imports on top of this deep financial crisis spells disaster--->riots&stikes soon. By the way, I'm not sure french people, when they adopted american fast-foods and Halloween celebrations, didn't adopt the american-way of spending (debt) too. Should be fun to look at some comparative data, say today versus the 70s or 80s even. May be free, or almost free education and universal free access to health care may put french people in a slightly better position though. But then again, France carries a huge deficit...

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 05:00 | 1840018 letitgo
letitgo's picture

I think you'd be better off basing your predictions on trade figures than on how many BMWs and Mercs you saw in China, even if, based on what I've seen in both China and Europe, there still see many more German cars in Europe than China both on a number of units and percentage basis.

I'm still struggling to understand how a Chinese hard landing makes "Europe 100% worse than the US" -- it's a very interesting and very ZH question which side of the pond would ultimately suffer more in a Chinese hard landing that we shouldl debate some other time.  I'm trying to understand the real situation in the long term, the last thing I'll be looking at is the series of superficial headlines and rumours we're trading on.

For the moment all I can say is that if you're right and the market is pricing in Northern European economic implosion, then there'll certainly be a massive rally sometime in the next 12 months when Germany et al do not implode.  So let's see if you're right.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:41 | 1839194 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Lenin knew: "If the Germans staged a revolution at the train station, they would buy tickets for the platform first".

And Stalin said: "In Germany you cannot have a revolution because you would have to step on the lawns."

This pretty much sums German mentality up.


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:50 | 1839219 chump666
chump666's picture

there you go punk.

germans kick ass when they get pissed (off).  They just got played by the gov, so a matter of time.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:06 | 1839265 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Of course, they have the same problems like in Britain, where in some areas migrants make up 70 percent of the population. Completely different mentality and not Germans.



Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:14 | 1839481 Rynak
Rynak's picture

The only reason why "germans kick ass when they get pissed off", is because it takes so long for them to be pissed off. So there you got your combination of "germans typically aren't rioters" and "when germans riot (instead of just demostrate), run for the hills".

They in this regard behave pretty much inverse to the french: Those will riot at the slightest provocation, but they will just as quick cool down again.

So yeah, you're pretty much both wrong..... and both right.... at the same time.... yet without getting the complete picture.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 05:04 | 1840023 letitgo
letitgo's picture

If you read the actual article and not just the headline and first paragraph, you'd say that other than the police union trying to get themselves more hours and fancy riot gear, everyone else quotes makes the opposite point to what you were trying to make: namely that Germany is not like the UK and not at risk of such riots.  They justify their points well too.

Too busy trading the headlines only to read and consider the whole article, I guess.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:21 | 1839497 rosex229
rosex229's picture

chump666 i must admit i would have agreed with your general premise a few short years ago. that is the premise that the whole house of cards will come crashing down in a rapid fashion. one day greece leaves the eu, 3 days later italy says 'well if they can...' it turns out that this kind of thinking about how events will unfold is a result of the way we educate ourselves about the collapse/fall of past societies. when we read books or watch shows on social and economic collapse they always tiddy things up into a neat sequence of events that, for entertainments sake, take place fairly rapidly. this is not how reality works.

this european debt crisis is a stunning example, as is the 2008 financial collapse that began in the u.s. economic, political, and social systems don't generally collapse completely overnight. i would relate this to the evoltionary theory of graduated equilibrium. there is stability. or equilibrium in an ecosystem for some time until the right combination of factors leads to an inflection point whre the system gyrates wildly until settling in on a new state of equilibrium. 

its clear that the equilibrium or stable state of the last several decades is being pertrubed by several converging factors. these pressures are putting equal negative force on all world economies, but the weakest links are breaking first. however, a chain snapping under too much stress may seem sudden, but in a frame by frame perspective has predictable starting conditions, and proceeds rather slowly. 

the world will seem exactly the same tomorrow when you wake up, as it will the next day and the day after that. collapse when lived and experienced, as opposed to being read in a book or viewed in a documentaryg is a rather slow process. in fact, its slow enough that most of the people around yo dont even realize what is happening, which i'm sure is frustrating for man of us.u

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:00 | 1839074 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

That dickhead should be a lot more concerned that this coming winter France...

As a politician, he's got an IQ a point or 2 above plant life. Clever perhaps, but not too bright. That's why he's where he is.  (That goes for US politicans too, of course.)

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:42 | 1838997 Conax
Conax's picture

Won't the Greeks default by then?  Or is the emergency not all that emergent?

I don't get it.


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:43 | 1839000 Rainman
Rainman's picture

I suspect Pap has a ballot stuffing plan that he hopes will vindicate him for what he wants and keep him off the gallows. Just doing the will of the people, etc. Only flaw I see is thinking he'll get to 12/4. But hey, he owns the whole crew of aid helpers now. They gotta let him slide on a due date or kaboom.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:52 | 1839039 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Now watch what happens with this date.  People will act like this date will be the end of the world.  And then it will come and go, like so many other "critical" dates of the past 3 years, and nothing substantial will have changed.  How many times have we held out breath about QE announcements, bailout deadlines, elections, Arab uprisings, mark-to-market rulings, etc.?  And yet the world, with all of this fraud in the financial world, continues to spin.

I don't mean to shit on anybody here.  I'm just being realistic.  December 5th will come and go, and by that point this will have been downplayed into a non-event.  I will stand by that prediction. 

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 05:14 | 1839994 saulysw
saulysw's picture

At some point the sheer weight of the worlds problems start to feed on themselves in an unstoppable feedback loop. I guess you will be one of the people saying "nobody could have seen that coming!". The rest of us, here, are watching out for this. I don't claim to know what will start it, but something will, and probably sooner rather than later. Looks like we will get to 2012 at least, on that I agree with you.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:43 | 1839001 PontifexMaximus
PontifexMaximus's picture

I really do not understand why people are talking about Greece, it's a no-brainer! Make up ur mind about the 800lb gorilla, called bunga bunga. Yet there is not enough fire under their ass!

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:44 | 1839006 letitgo
letitgo's picture

Sorry to post again, but this is an entertaining press conference, even by Sarko's standards,  He's now losing it at a reporter who was very critical.  Merkel is being a real hard arse and doing a fair bit of that smirking that she managed last week when she got her way.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:52 | 1839008 mynhair
mynhair's picture

What happened to the poster reporting Merkel live?

Was 'moved to a more appropriate thread'.

Are MW interns on ZH now?  letitgo


Oh, up above.  Never mind.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:45 | 1839009 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture


Oh REALLY? I would call your bluff on that.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:50 | 1839031 Rainman
Rainman's picture

The fix is in...they already know the outcome.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:27 | 1839332 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture


Nothing personal Rainman. I'm just getting sick of 100s of conspiracy comments each day, and yours was handy.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:48 | 1839017 max2205
max2205's picture

When do those 1 year Greek bonds pay off? Looks like a quadrupole for us

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:50 | 1839026 Grimbert
Grimbert's picture

Here's the Germans' POV:

Fuck you Papandreou


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:58 | 1839062 Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

+1 - Falco never sounded so good

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:11 | 1839281 fuu
fuu's picture


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:24 | 1839318 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Indeed I am a big supporter of Greece holding a referendum, and admire Georgios Papandreou's boldness here ...

But that is a damn funny video you just linked there, to the tune of Falco's Amadeus:

« ... And then the leaders of the Eurozone said 'F-ck you Papandreou' »

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:50 | 1839027 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

* Merkel says Greece only gets next tranche of first bail out after Oct 27 deal is fully implemented.

also this gem...

*It appears there are 10-12 'rebels' in Berlusconi's party, enough to bring the Italian government down

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:50 | 1839028 St. Deluise
St. Deluise's picture

soooo whatever the market decides on this week will be the trend until dec. got it.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:50 | 1839030 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

sarkel, merkozy, la_grande_lagarde, and the junckster

what a line-up!  muderers' row!

they sound like a bunch of rushing chairpersons during...

...greek week?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:25 | 1839141 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

what a line-up! muderers' row!

Sarkozy, Merkel, Lagarde and Junckster... would be nice if that would be the names of the people on death row.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:51 | 1839035 caerus
caerus's picture

god forbid the greek people should have a say...referendum indeed!

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:51 | 1839036 sheeple2012
sheeple2012's picture

I guess Diebold said they need a month to get set up in Greece so they can "count" the vote?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:03 | 1839042 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

does it even matter.. If Italian bond yields continue to increase, it is game over.  Doesn't Italy have to roll over 300B Euros next year?

Therefore, higher yields implies greater Italian austerity to narrow the budget gap, leading to Greco like social upheavels.  And then an Italian referendum question?

Even if Greece stays in the EZ, contangion will likely not be stopped.  And the entire point of the EFSF was to stop contagion reaching Italy.


The bazooka has been shown to be the chewing gum variety.


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:52 | 1839043 daily bread
daily bread's picture

I expect that a few days before the referendum Greece will announce it has run out of paper to print ballots.  They'll ask people to go to a website to print the ballot, and mail in with their vote.  But there won't be anyone checking the originating PO, so folks in France/Germany etc.  [Wall St?] will be able to send in their vote!

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 05:05 | 1840025 zuuuueri
zuuuueri's picture

hah.  a sad reality on this subject is that the greek state has firmly resisted any kind of absentee ballots for years - maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the voting population lives abroad, and they are exactly the segment of voters who have the least connection to the corrupt politicians, they are the most productive and wealthy greeks, and they are by and large pissed at how things have gone down the toilet under the 'leadership' these past couple decades. But, to vote in greece you have to go back to the very place you are registered, in person. For the couple million greeks in the US, canada, and australia, this is simply too much 99% of the time and the greek politicians know it. so, no, there is no chance of an absentee ballot here.

fuck it, i'm going to make the trip to vote against more bailouts. ticket from here is only a few hundred bucks.

as for bringing diebold in to help count the votes.. i'm afraid it might be more than just a joke. Ballots are still paper in greece but i wouldnt put it past them to also simultaneously announce some new shiny machines.

its also possible the find a way to not actually hold a referendum after all. 

dont put anything past these slimeballs.


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:53 | 1839045 fyrebird
fyrebird's picture

So I guess that's how long they think it will take to get all the real money safely hidden under the floor boards.


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:53 | 1839049 Racer
Racer's picture

Greece lost 8B? oh so that is where Germany found some of that money....

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:54 | 1839050 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Take a page from the Book of Iceland.  Tell them to cram it

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:54 | 1839051 PaperBear
PaperBear's picture


Oh Sarkozy is the Greek PM is he ?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:25 | 1839140 Mark123
Mark123's picture

Everyone is scared of Big Sarkozy after he led the brilliant campaign against the greatest and most powerful military regime the world has ever know (Libya).  What the Big Sarkozy says is law.


Someone get him one of those ermine fringed royal robes.  OH, and one of this really big crowns (like in those old margarine commercials).

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:55 | 1839053 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

With all the yammering and lecturing, at a certain point - and we're at or near that point - the vote in Greece is going to become completely about saying 'Fuck You' to Europe whatever the consequences. That would be so Greek. Philotimo.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:56 | 1839054 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

sorry - double post

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:58 | 1839057 tallen
tallen's picture

So to the greek people

A) Stick with the Euro but get screwed perpentually for the rest of their lives.

B) Default and all the poor bankers will lose their bonuses.

Please end this BS already, it's all too much for me. DEFAULT. Let the contagion begin so we can do some Zombie-Bank killing.


Any bets on the vote being rigged?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:05 | 1839066 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

I still don't understand how they are going to IMPLEMENT the Oct 27, accelerated EFSF when they can't even get off a EUR 3B bond?

Anyone think market conditions in the EU are going to get better soon? Bueller?

Also Merkel said they are "prepared" for a country to leave the EU. Prepared? There is NO legal framework in place for a country to leave the EU. What the hell is the ECB going to do with all their greek bonds denominated in EUR when Greece leaves the EU? What about all those Greek bonds currently being used as REPO instruments as the ECB?

Who do those Eurocrats think they are fooling?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:00 | 1839071 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

The Greeks held EU for ransom when they first joined, requiring 30B of presents to let Spain and Portugal in. That was G-Pap's dad. EU should have learned then. Kick them out!


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:41 | 1839196 Rynak
Rynak's picture

I'd like my country to be kicked out too! This is discrimination!

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:01 | 1839079 MindTheGAP
MindTheGAP's picture

This referendum is a joke. It's like deciding with which weapon you'll blow your brains. Choosing between shotgun and AK-47 doesn't really make any difference.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:02 | 1839083 pragmatic hobo
pragmatic hobo's picture

"Initial reaction is ES selling off 3-4pts"

ES moving 3~4 points is hardly "selling off" ... from what I can tell ES can move 10 points in matter of seconds on just few hundred contracts and that's during market hours.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:12 | 1839108 Mark123
Mark123's picture

For F__KS we have to wait on the results of the Greek referendum....another month of this endless BS in the media day in and day out.  I can't stand it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Greece is flat broke and can never repay more than a token amount of what was lent to it.  By all means send in the auditors to see who profited from all this and punish them, but write down the debt now. 


Time for another distraction....cue Israel (with full NATO support) attacking Iran.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:17 | 1839122 Mark123
Mark123's picture

Can we start using Iceland as a verb.....e.g. "Greece should really Iceland those banksters"


Speaking of Iceland, has there been any in depth analysis of how things have worked out for them?  How has their currency behaved, GDP, exports, imports, shortages, pending liabilities etc etc.  It would be interesting to know!

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:18 | 1839127 mfoste1
mfoste1's picture

kick the can is what they do best!

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:19 | 1839128 Mark123
Mark123's picture

Has anybody considered that this is just an excuse that Germany can use to gracefully back out of the Euro and blame it all on Greece?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:29 | 1839156 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

no I had not considered that...


The Euro is good for Germany. As the most stable and superior country of the group it gives them cover to export cheaper goods to other EZ countries and to the rest of the world...If they had the Mark their FX rate would be higher and in the current situation it would skyrocket if they stepped out.   


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:44 | 1839203 Mark123
Mark123's picture

That is the consensus, but I think the Germans have a longer, more realistic view of how competitive devaluations works out. 


The Euro was only good for Germany if the rules were followed.  The rules were not followed and now they are being asked to cover all the bad debts - including France - without any real consequence for the bad behavior.  Yup, that will play really well with the German people.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:53 | 1839230 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Too bad, that the german people - for the sake of sacrificing their lifes and domestic market to exports - have by now accumulated so much frustration, that they sure as hell won't be "rescueing" or "paying" anything. If this abomination called the EMU breaks up, then at least regarding germany, they will not be able to rescue stupid banks - it just isn't doable without the german riot cam... and: you don't want riot cams of a society that is supposedly conformist.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:46 | 1839207 Rynak
Rynak's picture

The Euro is good for Germany.


Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:26 | 1839145 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

a pity? it's a "pity they lost those billions"? what the phuck does that mean? "cuz now we're have to kill you?" why is it every time a German opens his/her mouth it sounds like a threat? talk about beating a dead horse:

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:27 | 1839151 ziggy59
ziggy59's picture

What year?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:28 | 1839153 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Anyone got a link for the press conference? Mainly Sarkozy since I don't speak german? Thanks

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:31 | 1839163 wawazat
wawazat's picture


ES +135 "limit- up" , EUUSD +800 bps

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:36 | 1839179 Mark123
Mark123's picture

Still not enough I'm afraid.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:34 | 1839169 Curtis LeMay
Curtis LeMay's picture

What the HELL is the IMF Chief even doing at a G-20 meeting???

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:35 | 1839171 Mark123
Mark123's picture

Those Greeks shall vote when I tell them!  They shall vote on Dec 3rd or 4th, but not a day later or a day earlier!!  That is MY decision and it SHALL BE SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sarkozy is king....long live the king for he is all knowing and all powerful (and a little pompous ass)

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:36 | 1839180 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Amazing that the French President is announcing when the Greeks vote. Slap in the face.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:37 | 1839183 rodocostarica
rodocostarica's picture

I dont know about the rest of you but I was thinking I would be happy to send a few bucks to the Greeks if they pull out. So I went searching on google to find an email address to offer some support.

Got a lot of Greek websites and now I know what they mean wehen they say it all sounds Greek to me.


So anyway here is the page to send a mail to the Greek embassy. Here is what I sent them.  I would be happy to send a few bucks if they pull out. And think it would be their best bet.


Anyone else want to pony up a half ounce of silver?


email address


My message


Hello. I would like to help your country in a small way by donating if you decide to leave the Euro. I think it would be best for you in the long term but that is for you and your country to decide. Very good of you to have a referendum. It is important that all your  citizens decide democratically.

And the world should respect your decision.
I would be happy to donate a small amount of money to help you should you leave the euro.

Please let me know after the vote how I can do so.

With all due respect to your country and its people.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 23:56 | 1839842 MS7
MS7's picture

That is so sweet!!!! You have restored my faith in human nature. But, I must tell you, this referendum may not be as it seems. I was fooled yesterday about it too. It seems like Papandreou (with the other EU leaders who, I suspect, are now playing dumb) is confident that the people will vote to stay in the euro, as they have been told that a return to the drachma will be the end of times, etc. This will then be seen as approval of all of G-Pap's austerity measures, and will weaken the negotiating position of the next Greek government vis-a-vis the EU. Of course, I could be wrong, and I hope I am.. I hope the good karma you are sending comes back to you a million times.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 02:50 | 1839979 drider
drider's picture

Another one drinking the hopium cola. The answer of the refendum is destined to be no. This is what you get when you never pause to ask your people on European treaties.

Freedom bitchez!

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:38 | 1839184 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

All is saved!

  • China's vice finance minister says EFSF bonds are already included in China's FX portfolio
  • China's vice finance minister says we have confidence in Europe
Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:40 | 1839191 ricocyb13
ricocyb13's picture



well, if she would have any sense of democracy, she might have guessed that in some cases it is fair to ask the people of a nation.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:58 | 1839241 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Can't do that - her own nation which in polls by majority wants the DM back, would respond "Stimmt genau Frau Merkel! Wann gibt's bei uns ein Referendum?"

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:14 | 1839290 ricocyb13
ricocyb13's picture

sehe ich auch so ;-)

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:50 | 1839227 Mark123
Mark123's picture

It's OK for millions of people in the USA to stop paying mortgages and continue to live in their homes, so why not Greece too?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:57 | 1839237 Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

Yesterday, David Zervos of Jefferies sent out a wildly popular note on the Papandreou referendum:

Bravo to Papandreou. He is peeling back the layers of the rotten onion that is EMU and exposing the Italian, French and Belgian situations for what they really are!

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:58 | 1839243 chump666
chump666's picture

major selling on crosses.  chaos on.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:00 | 1839253 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Greece, want to mess with Juncker,  Sarkozy and the banksters? Start printing Euros. That will mess them up bigtime. Use other country designations. 


The euro notes are printed in member countries. You can tell the origin of the note by looking at the first letter of the serial number. The first letter represents the country of printing. 

Z Belgium Y Greece X Germany (W) (Denmark) V Spain U France T Ireland S Italy (R) (Luxembourg) (Q) Not used P Netherlands (O) Not used N Austria M Portugal L Finland (K) (Sweden) (J) (United Kingdom) (I) Not used H Slovenia G Cyprus F Malta E Slovakia

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:06 | 1839268 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

That would be a declaration of war. No way they do that, they are too sold out. Not to mention, they don't have the printing presses.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:01 | 1839256 mynhair
mynhair's picture

O/T, but more ammo for pulling CNBS off the air.  Yesterday, those morons boxed 'KKR in talks to buy all or part of Sampson Oil & Gas'.

Gee, it is Sampson Investment Co, a totally different entity.  SSN spiked up 20 cents (it's a penny stock) on the 'news'.

They never aired a correction.

Only noticed cuz I was overheated, on the couch, watching the tickers with no sound, and have SSN in expectations of a takeover.

My point is that some morons trade off of CNBS still, just like morons will vote for ODummer again.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:06 | 1839269 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

What the EU is saying is that the EU social experiment just died.

G-Pip can pick any day Greece wants to hold the referendum.  If early December is too quick to organize, take your time on an important vote like this. 

You wouldn't want to rush the vote, not be prepared and then have the EU to blame for a failed referendum?

Going forward, all national decision making models will be used to determine the direction the EU goes.  Gone are the days that a national leader can ignore the electorate and accept a retroactive EU treaty change without consulting the people either through an election or referendum.

This is a very positive move.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:13 | 1839284 ricocyb13
ricocyb13's picture

sad thing is that the Greek people will never see any of that bailout money. All the EFSF-money is going to the bondholders (Germany and France banks) only.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:13 | 1839286 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

All the religious right who love Israel whatever crime they commit must see this :

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:35 | 1839363 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture post it on ZH?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:36 | 1839540 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Well maybe some of you know right wingers?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:27 | 1839333 Mitzibitzi
Mitzibitzi's picture

For those that don't already know, I commend Jerry Pournelle's blog.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:44 | 1839393 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

Although ridiculous, I'm afraid you can bank on the fact that somehow this referendum will end with the Greek people "overwhelmingly" supporting the bailout, austerity condiutions, and continued membership in the EU. Have your shorts gone by this date.  Guaranteed. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:01 | 1839444 riley martini
riley martini's picture

The USA needs to use referendums to control the thivery and corruption in the White House , Congress and Senate . Referendum is the only way to force the criminals at the federal level to be subject to the same laws as the citizen . G-Pap is doing the right thing and the fascist hate it.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:08 | 1839462 Destinapp
Destinapp's picture

This funny Hitler video on Merkel sums it all up:



Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:29 | 1839514 LookingWithAmazement
LookingWithAmazement's picture

Referendum will be cancelled with the confidence vote.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:33 | 1839524 chindit13
chindit13's picture

One month of endless rumors in front of us.  That ought to be good for a dozen or more explosive rallies as Zogby, Gallup et al release the latest poll numbers---with a +/-49% margin of error---on the Greek referendum.  Then, after the vote, there still will be nobody who knows what the heck it means.  After the referendum, to paraphrase Jack Nicholson in The Departed, "it don't make your EFSF any bigger".  Then there's Italy......

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