Referendum Day To Decide Greek's Future Is 12/4

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Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:32 | 1838963 Mongo
Mongo's picture

This is so coordinated. Papandreou doesn't do anything without approval from the suits at IMF

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:42 | 1838994 dlmaniac
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SARKOZY SAYS REFERENDUM WILL DECIDE GREECE'S EURO FUTURE.

Last thing I remember I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
'Relax,' said the nightman
'We are programmed to receive.'
'You can check out anytime you like but ...'

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:50 | 1839029 SWRichmond
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They who past reason and recovery are devoted to kingship perhaps will answer, that a greater part by far of the nation will have it so, the rest therefore must yield. Not so much to convince these, which I little hope, as to confirm them who yield not, I reply, that this greatest part have both in reason, and the trial of just battle, lost the right of their election what the government shall be: of them who have not lost that right, whether they for kingship be the greater number, who can certainly determine? Suppose they be, yet of freedom they partake all alike, one main end of government: which if the greater part value not, but will degenerately forego, is it just or reasonable, that most voices against the main end of government should enslave the less number that would be free? more just it is, doubtless, if it come to force, that a less number compel a greater to retain, which can be no wrong to them, their liberty, than that a greater number, for the pleasure of their baseness, compel a less most injuriously to be their fellow-slaves. They who seek nothing but their own just liberty, have always right to win it and to keep it, whenever they have power, be the voices never so numerous that oppose it. And how much we above others are concerned to defend it from kingship, and from them who in pursuance thereof so perniciously would betray us and themselves to most certain misery and thraldom, will be needless to repeat.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:01 | 1839081 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

Truly excellent and one of the best arguments against broad-based, popular democracy, such as we have here in the U.S.A., that I have read anywhere.  Who are you citing?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:07 | 1839095 TruthInSunshine
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Extend and pretend, kick the can, wait 'em out, wear 'em down, spray and pray...

...bitchez.

The EUR is as good as dead, unless Myanmar comes through with that big rescue package.

Wait, oh that's right...Germans are going to assume the debt of PIIGSFUK (PIIGS+France+UK). That shouldn't create a mathematical problem for Germany, and the ECB can always just print in Weimaresque fashion, until Europeans use wheelbarrels full of euros to buy a loaf of bread.

What's old is new again.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:10 | 1839105 Coast Watcher
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John Milton, "A Free Commonwealth," I think.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:15 | 1839119 SWRichmond
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Yes, above is Milton, 1660.  Here is Patrick Henry arguing correctly but unsuccessfully against Virginia's ratification of the Constitution.  Things never change.

Will the adoption of this new plan pay our debts? This, sir, is a plain question. It is inferred that our grievances are to be redressed, and the evils of the existing system to be removed, by the new Constitution. Let me inform the honorable gentleman that no nation ever paid its debts by a change of government, without the aid of industry. You never will pay your debts but by a radical change of domestic economy. At present you buy too much, and make too little, to pay. Will this new system promote manufactures, industry, and frugality? If, instead of this, your hopes and designs will be disappointed, you relinquish a great deal, and hazard indefinitely more, for nothing. Will it enhance the value of your lands? Will it lessen your burdens? Will your looms and wheels go to work by the act of adoption? If it will, in its consequence, produce these things, it will consequently produce a reform, and enable you to pay your debts. Gentlemen must prove it. I am a skeptic, an infidel, on this point. I cannot conceive that it will have these happy consequences. I cannot confide in assertions and allegations. The evils that attend us lie in extravagance and want of industry, and can only be removed by assiduity and economy. Perhaps we shall be told by gentlemen that these things will happen, because the administration is to be taken from us, and placed in the hands of the few, who will pay greater attention, and be more studiously careful than we can be supposed to be.

With respect to the economical operation of the new government, I will only remark, that the national expenses will be increased; if not doubled, it will approach it very nearly. I might, without incurring the imputation of illiberality or extravagance, say that the expense will be multiplied tenfold. I might tell you of a numerous standing army, a great, powerful navy, a long and rapacious train of officers and dependants, independent of the President, senators, and representatives, whose compensations are without limitation. How are our debts to be discharged unless the taxes are increased, when the expenses of the government are so greatly augmented? The defects of this system are so numerous and palpable, and so many states object to it, that no union can be expected, unless it be amended.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:38 | 1839185 Peter Pan
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I salute you SWRichmond for bringing to our attention such a timeless piece of wisdom and commn sense.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 06:28 | 1840058 AldousHuxley
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French and Germans make it sound like they are doing Greece a favor.....when in fact French are just bailing out their shitty banks for shitty loans to Greece and Germans just want to sell more of their shit to Greeks who can't afford it without getting more into debt.

 

Same bullshit in US folks. Instead of regime change due to reality surfacing and Americans revolting, China gives more debt to US Treasury, CONgress distributes it to populace so they can buy more MADE IN CHINA crap. US mismanagement class are just kicking the can down the road by giving debt addicts more debt just to stay in power. Meanwhile Chinese are building their knowhow in business and exports.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:54 | 1841013 Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

Yes, but it was ignored.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 23:20 | 1839789 bankruptcylawyer
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bullshit. democracy will not decide who is free and who are slaves. you can always get more than 50% of slaves to vote for their master. 

free men will decide by their actions who will be free or who will die fighting.

all this democracy bullshit. enough. it is a sideshow of nonsense. and just another lame excuse to bring in the riot police and military to repress the 49%.

but yea, voting plays well on the news when it serves the interests of the plutocracy. 

 

no more voting in greece.  it is time for violence. real violence. not just misdirected rioting.

everyone knows it. and it will stress allegiances in the military or require new ones, which is why you hear that story this week about a military leadership overhaul in greece.

the plutocracy will eventually have to turn greece into a country of shanty towns and barred up guarded fortress like housing complexes for the upper class. and then , the first attempt at a revolution will follow. 

 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:42 | 1838996 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

I won't believe shit until I hear the confirmation from the Health Minister personally.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:21 | 1839134 moneyline
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......hmmmmmmm. Didn't G-Pip say that that Greece found a few billion euro under a sofa in the Panthenon and that they had enough money to last until mid-Nov????? I guess they are going to "find" some money somewhere else????? I might just bailout of the markets all together. This whole thing is starting to sound like a set up before QE3 or something.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:47 | 1839407 Nobody special
Nobody special's picture

Sort of.  It was actually a box of billion euro notes dated 2012.  Apparently a print requisition from TPTB went out too early, so they just saved the notes for after the hyperinflation.  He's not allowed to spend them yet.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 22:27 | 1839675 MS7
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Although I was initially fooled by this move for a referendum, I think you are right. Most Greeks will likely vote to stay in the euro, thus giving away the one card (other than default within the euro zone) that they had.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 01:20 | 1839932 hpro123
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SURREAL!!!

 

First IMF says 6th Installment is Off the table until GPap figures out his referendum thing.

 

Then, 04:45 Athens time, Venizelos, Finance Minister and "Deputy Prime Minister", upon his return from Cannes,  posts in the Official Finance Ministry site that... HE IS OPPOSED to the REFERNDUM and is all for National Unity!!!

 

Stay tuned... 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:33 | 1838965 SwingForce
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Its like the 3 Stooges, they are all idiots who are playing us like a fiddle...

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:41 | 1838991 WestVillageIdiot
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They are more like pool sharks.  They let you have the feeling that they don't know what they are doing but in the end you know they are going to end up with all of your money. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:38 | 1838966 lolmao500
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Funny how a FRENCH decides when the GREEK referendum will be...

The greeks should tell Sarkozy to suck it and they'll do it when they'll do it and he has NO POWER OVER IT.

Little Napoleon can go to hell.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:44 | 1839002 WestVillageIdiot
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The smell of feudalism fills the air.  The masters of the land are telling the peasants what they can and cannot do while the masters seize the harvest.

Ain't gonna work on Merkel's farm no more. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:49 | 1839020 Let them eat iPads
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Day's never finished...

Massa' got me workin'....

Someday massa' set me free...

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:00 | 1839072 letitgo
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Make sure you take a look at Sarko's pretty angry reply to the French-speaking reporter who suggested they were meddling in Greece's affairs.  He basically said that they have enough to deal with in their own countries and aren't doing it out of pleasure.  Probably not too far wrong on that exist.  The rest of his reply talking about how the programs had worked in Spain, for example, were a little further from the mark.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:07 | 1839097 sitenine
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Meanwhile, in Greece:

The dismissal of Greece’s top military chiefs has the opposition up in arms. With the Greek crisis worsening by the day, PM George Papandreou has been accused of trying to rein in the armed forces before a potential government collapse.

http://rt.com/news/greece-military-dismissal-papandreou-393/

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:15 | 1839292 Almost Solvent
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That's the real question for any "western" government. 

 

When the shat hits the fan and "normal" civil society breaks down, who's in charge of what?

 

Questions like that are always answered with force.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 04:44 | 1840012 zuuuueri
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the actual changes aren't to take effect for quite a while. The very top officers are all political appointments anyway and they get cycled in and out. It's the level or two below those guys who really run the military establishment, and any changes there are seldom published in any real way. 

no, the truth is that those in the halls of power in greece are completely, 100% out of touch with what's happening on the streets of the country. They are living in their own fantasy land, whose primary occupation is the import, manufacture, and export of more pipe dreams. The disconnect between the top echelon of politicos and the rest of the country is getting enormous now. 

I'd bet that there will be a set of institutions on paper labelled the greek government which are kept on life support for far longer than any of us would ever imagine rationally possible, still officially speaking on behalf of the nation, possibly still being 'elected' , while the reality on the ground drifts into a strange mix of local rule, quiet (not violent) anarchy/self rule, and miserable corruption.. different areas will have a different mix of the three..  

 

 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:56 | 1839058 YesWeKahn
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you got it wrong bro. It's the money who decides.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:02 | 1839084 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

you mean "the money printers who decide."

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:09 | 1839104 pacdm
pacdm's picture

I smell a rat and little French Rat at that and as for Germany they lost 2 World Wars so the people of Greece tell them to piss off. The rest of Europe need Greece to Default 100% put an end to the Euro for good.

I am from England i can smell the rat from here.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:33 | 1839523 chindit13
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Funny how a FRENCH decides when the GREEK referendum will be...

No, it's funny when a Hungarian decides when the Minnesotan should call a referendum in Greece.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:36 | 1838975 qussl3
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Everyone is raising each other, but no one dares to call.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:45 | 1839007 WestVillageIdiot
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But that only happens during The Last Hand when nobody wants the game to end, everybody hoping they can recoup their losses in one fell swoop.  That seldom works out well. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:38 | 1838981 Bill D. Cat
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Another month of this shit . Great .

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:52 | 1839044 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Not even...if they make it another week, it'll be a miracle. Credit markets are signaling some heavy weather, soon. Yo, Rome, batten down the hatches. 12/4? As if

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:38 | 1838984 kengland
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Take the money the greeks were set to borrow and fill the holes left in your banks. Kick the Greeks out and be done with it. If you are hell bent on borrowing your way out then just get it done for crying out loud. The market would absolutely start crying in celebration if they did that

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:39 | 1838985 New American Re...
New American Revolution's picture

I'LL CALL.   I've got a yo-yo with a broken string and 2 used popscycle sticks and I'm all in, and that's more than France has got.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:46 | 1839010 WestVillageIdiot
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Does that beat a used condom on a baguette? 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:56 | 1839059 fyrebird
fyrebird's picture

Not in France it don't.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:41 | 1839195 knukles
knukles's picture

OK, then a used condom with a hole in it and a half eaten sourdough baguette.

 

God, I just wish to fuck that somebody would embarass the living shit out of that short sawed off little shit Snarkozy so he'd have a coniption fit an d break down crying on the telly.

Why the fuck would any country join the EU just to wind up being bossed about and have it's pockets emptied by that little rodent?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:39 | 1838986 WestVillageIdiot
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"Initial reaction is ES selling off 3-4pts and very slight downtick in EUR"

But I was watching metals a little while ago and they took a sudden jump.  This had to be the news that caused it.  If you were Greek wouldn't you be making sure that some of your savings were in shiny objects? 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:40 | 1838989 letitgo
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Watching Sarkozy and Merkel live.  She just said that she'd prefer the Eurozone with Greece, rather than without them, but the German priority is a stable eurozone and this might require going without them.  Sarko is now backing her up in more vague terms.

So they're either playing hardball with Greece or finally recognising that they might be better off without them.

Surely this is bullish for the euro either way, but it's currently dropping.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:49 | 1839019 lolmao500
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but the German priority is a stable eurozone and this might require going without them.

You are sure they are not talking about Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Italy or France?

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:53 | 1839046 letitgo
letitgo's picture

No, she was only talking about Greece.  A few minutes later Sarko proudly proclaimed how the programs were working in Ireland, Portugal and Spain.  It's just Greece.

Sorry if the use of the plural was confusing, I was translating from German on the fly.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:56 | 1839056 lolmao500
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No, it's just that my post was SARCASM... maybe it was lost in translation too.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:04 | 1839088 letitgo
letitgo's picture

No worries, but that was far too close to the true state of affairs to be read as sarcasm.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 19:53 | 1839214 tom a taxpayer
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Merkel may be letting the cat out of the bag. It should soon dawn on the rest of EU and the banking cartels that they can not tolerate a Greek referendum. Period. 

Not in January. Not in December. Not in November.

Regardless of whether the Greeks vote Yes or No on the referendum, the precedent set by having a REFERENDUM will strike a stake into the heart of the banking cartel vampire.

If Greece sets a precedent by voting on the Faustian bargain, TPTB know the game is up, and the Genie is out of the bottle, 

As soon as the EU, IMF, and G-20 wake from their last hurrah in Cannes, they will realize the ONLY solution that serves their Masters in the Banking Cartels, is to throw Greece out of the EU before the referendum.

 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 20:52 | 1839428 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

Interesting observation, and probably true. Maybe it is all a setup to throw them out, to seem as if they are in control. Trouble is, you KNOW the banks have CDS exposure here that is far greater than the actual debt, plus they are so thin on capital that it won't take anything to send them into receivership. But Europe will survive without the current crop of bansk - new ones will spring up, and the cycle begin again. 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 21:32 | 1839521 tom a taxpayer
tom a taxpayer's picture

Yes, it will be bitter medicine, even for the banks, but the alternative of allowing referendums, I think, is sure death to EU and the banks-as-we-know-them.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:40 | 1838990 Quantitative_Ap...
Quantitative_Appeasing's picture

Looking forward to the following headlines -

 

*GREECE VOTES NO ON BAILOUT MEASURES

*GREECE SET DEFAULT ON ALL PREVIOUS BOND ISSUANCE

*GREECE TO RETURN TO THE DRACHMA IN 2012

 

Followed by -

 

*FRENCH BANKS CAPITAL POSITIONS DRASTICALLY WORSEN DUE TO GREECE VOTE

*FRENCH GOVERNMENT LOOKS FOR SOLUTION TO SHORE UP LOCAL BANKS

*FRENCH GOVERNMENT UNABLE TO COME UP WITH VIABLE RECAPITALIZATION PLAN

*FRENCH BANKS TO GO "TITS-UP" FOLLOWING LACK OF ALTERNATIVES

 

 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:47 | 1839013 WestVillageIdiot
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*FRENCH ARE THANKFUL THEY ARE NOT ITALY

 

 

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 18:51 | 1839037 Let them eat iPads
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*France loses AAA rating

*France surrenders

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