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Retail Pulls Money Out Of Stocks For 13th Consecutive Week

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Not like this will come as a surprise to anyone in the aftermath of last week's abysmal FaceBook IPO which pretty much killed all retail interest in equity markets, but in the last week, the "dumb" money pulled another $3.5 billion out of domestic stocks per ICI, bringing the total tally to 13 consecutive weeks of outflows, and 52 weeks of outflows in the past 56 weeks, with redemptions amounting to $46 billion in 2012, compared to just $6.5 billion for the same period in 2011. Algo-matic, the 20 remaining Primary Dealers and whatever hedge funds are left can pass hot grenades amongst each other: the retail money (RIP) has found other ways to amuse itself.

 

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Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:42 | 2460363 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Just makes it easier to manipulate.  Right?

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:03 | 2460453 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

Means the smart money is buying right now. Stocks look super cheap and the risks are exaggerated.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:15 | 2460487 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Absolutely.

In fact one should ignore the $700B pulled out of equity funds in the last 5 years, and lever up and buy all those super cheap stocks. Start with FB tomorrow. I mean yes still about 22x sales, but hell cheaper than it was a week a go.

GO GO Smart Money!!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:30 | 2460540 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

euro about to collapse to the 1.24 handle.
eurobanks who are on the other side of a major short are about to implode.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:40 | 2460575 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

We don't know that it will fall any more. USD longs could be on the wrong side of the trade. The dollar may converge back to equities on more can kicking and the bloombergs will light up green for days / weeks on end.

It happens.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:41 | 2460577 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

How astute.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:45 | 2460586 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

Keep your bearishness in check. Bill Gross of all people was on CNBC telling people to buy treasuries. Last year he shorted them at the top. Might mean that yields have bottomed and the can is about to be kicked again.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:00 | 2460622 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Holy shit...you are truly a simpleton, aren't you?

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:38 | 2460726 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

Just keep this in mind, EUR/USD shorts were at an all-time high a few days ago. Any good news will cause a massive rip in the markets as shorts run for cover.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:36 | 2460871 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

Here is a contrarian trade for you.  Short US treasuries, long EUR.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:36 | 2460722 LynRobison
LynRobison's picture

If you are really interested in how and why Bill Gross ended up getting burned by shorting treasuries, read http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1337803200.php. 

 

Treasuries will crash and the US government will default. It is a foregone conclusion. 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:42 | 2460744 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

Respectfully, I don't agree with your position on treasuries.

I went long the 30 year as Gross went short @ over 4.6%. Now that he's talking them up, makes me think that the market is fixing to rip again and yield are going to explode upward. Fed is out of tools to hold long term rates down. Hate to say it, but might be a great time to short 30 year treasuries and go long stocks.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 21:15 | 2460971 Acorn10012
Acorn10012's picture

And that's why they say there are two sides to every trade. You have an interesting take...a bit contrarian but who knows?

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:34 | 2460709 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

And the CME is making it easy for TPTB folks to move their money out of Euros and into gold and oil.  When the rush is into agriculture/food you'll know we're really in deep shit.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 21:41 | 2461023 bagehot99
bagehot99's picture

Correct. 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:31 | 2460544 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Absolutely!

Better to buy after they plow $700billion in with a sharp contraction of the money supply besides.

 

 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:08 | 2460646 blueridgeviews
blueridgeviews's picture

Love the sarcasm!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:20 | 2460831 skepticCarl
skepticCarl's picture

It's satire, actually.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:17 | 2460494 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Have the corresponding inflows of the retail into the metals?

No! That can't be! The metals are the sharp square trade!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:22 | 2460516 Joe The Plumber
Joe The Plumber's picture

GLD is still the biggest etf right?

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:34 | 2460559 Bill D. Cat
Bill D. Cat's picture

This one time , on a dare , I tried pulling out . Unfortunately , I'm still paying for it .

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:43 | 2460893 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

The next 18 years are gonna be a bitch, eh?

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 22:14 | 2461091 moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

and then come those college student loans! Halp obama! haaalp!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:27 | 2460845 WatchingIgnorance
WatchingIgnorance's picture

MARKETS = CASINOS.

Don't end up selling your hair to a wig shop!

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 00:09 | 2461302 peekcrackers
peekcrackers's picture

You would have a better chance shooting craps in a back alley in Deroit .

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 21:14 | 2460969 jus_lite_reading
jus_lite_reading's picture

LMAO!! Are you the new Million Dollar Bonus aka Hairy Wanker aka Hamy Wanger etc etc etc?

You've got to be kidding...

Or as dumb as Leo Kalakas...

Or one of Obumbos brand spanking new propaganda AI puppets trolling the internet...

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 05:55 | 2461568 Element
Element's picture

Well he does sound audaciously hopeful.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:07 | 2460465 HD
HD's picture

Exactly right.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:35 | 2460560 Cdad
Cdad's picture

@brother boiler

Per the question of manipulation...maybe in the very short run.  However, you cannot have stable markets without capital formation.  With capital running away at full speed from these stupid, totally bogus markets, all you will really ever have is volatility.  Which will, of course, drive even more capital out of the markets...which is why Ben Bernanke keeps printing dollars...and round and round we fuckin' go.

Way to go Ben!  Way to go criminal syndicate Wall Street!  You have killed capital markets.

I feel your frustration, Boiler...but take heart.  The dipshits on Wall Street have now opened a 60 point S&P gap...between here and the breaking point at 1280.  This is going to be fun.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:25 | 2460841 skepticCarl
skepticCarl's picture

"retail money (RIP) has found other ways to amuse itself."  The most popular way is buying ETF's, instead of old fashioned MF's.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:42 | 2460364 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Boomers are cashing out. Young people have no jobs, so no money to invest.

Game over.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:19 | 2460505 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Sums it up, buddy. The chips are gettin cashed in. It gets pretty sad when there's only 2 of you left at the craps table and everyone else has gone. The croupiers all try to keep it cheerful and snappy, pretending that everything is fine. But it's not. Still they only have one speed: fast, so that you make more losing bets that they can scoop up. 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:27 | 2460700 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Good thing the financial services industry is as bloated as it still is!  Buy bank shares and be the mostest smart "value buyer" on your block!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:44 | 2460367 GenX Investor
GenX Investor's picture

We love hot grenades, it's what we do down at the Shore with our wing-men!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:52 | 2460404 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

hi ho hi ho it's hand grenades I throw...

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:44 | 2460898 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Hot grenades are expensive, what with the thermite and all.

Molotov Cocktails are much cheaper.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:44 | 2460368 malikai
malikai's picture

iCrap.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:44 | 2460371 ACP
ACP's picture

Not only is there no trust in the markets, a lot of people simply need the cash.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:50 | 2460396 devo
devo's picture

Couldn't you use this as a bearish argument against gold, too?

i.e. If people need cash for basic necessities they're not going to have money to put into gold and silver. I think a large part of the continued bull market and eventual bubble relies on joe sixpacks getting into gold.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:03 | 2460449 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

I think you just demonstrated how much higher gold has to go.  It will be awhile before Joe Sixpack cancels his cable, and his monthly igadget contract, drives less to save on gas, and transfers that money into gold.

We are nowhere near that yet.  It will take a lot of fear/greed for that to happen.  And until it does, there are many who argue that the top can't be called.

I tend to agree.  

Nobody had the money for a house, either.  But they still bought them.  When Joe is borrowing to buy gold maples, that will tell us something.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:08 | 2460467 devo
devo's picture

If Joe is charging gold maples on his credit card (which he never intends to pay back) the government/JPM will flip their wig, though. This should get interesting.

Ps. No need to thumb me down, guys. I love gold and silver just as much as you do. I'm just asking a question.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:15 | 2460488 fuu
fuu's picture

"I think a large part of the continued bull market and eventual bubble relies on joe sixpacks getting into gold."

Right. It has nothing to do with fiscal policy, debt load, and what not.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:20 | 2460508 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

The early movers (those who buy at the bottom) are the ones who know it has everything to do with fiscal policy, debt load, and what not.

Joe Sixpack will buy PAPER gold for the wrong reasons at the wrong time.  Just because he heard its "the thing to do."  He will not understand the value of physical, firstly.  Secondly, if he buys the physical, he will be doing so to try to make a buck selling it immediately (not for insurance against fiscal policy and debt load run amok).

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:38 | 2460569 devo
devo's picture

What about the supply side of the equation? As Joe Sixpack buys at the wrong time, more and more upstart miners begin producing and saturating the market. We see this in action on the TV show "Gold Rush".

I think gold bulls should want oil to rise as it will slow down production/supply. Speaking of supply, I noticed Gainesville is out of 10oz silver bars. Interesting...

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:48 | 2460591 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

How much mining until the physical even gets close to meeting the paper claims on said physical?

All the mining in the world just cannot keep pace with the rate of printing, IMO.

I just don't see "too little fiat chasing too much gold".   If that happens, I think it would happen in paper markets, which don't mean shit to me.  I stored my labor hours in gold at a certain price.  I'll extract those labor hours from gold and exchange them for consumption of goods, at a certain price.  All the events in the middle, while significant to the world, don't affect my willingness to buy and hold PM's.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:53 | 2460608 devo
devo's picture

I agree, but a "mining bubble" could reduce purchasing power (in theory, and depending on several factors) even in a currency collapse. Say inflation is 10% and gold extractions goes up to 5%. The gold would be worth more than the paper, but it might only be able to buy a cabin instead of a single family home.

I buy gold for the same reason you do. I'm just thinking out loud. We can move on.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:16 | 2460671 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Who holds the most gold?

Same folks who run the printing presses?

The idea that somehow gold is a safe haven from same folks you desperately trying to hide from all the while they are the gold market is hysterical!

It has to do with future demand, without QE to infinity it has already been shown gold has no more buyers than anything else.   Oddly though, that is not true  with equities is it? Afterall the retail guy does not own it up to his eyeballs already like he does gold.

As they trade near 52 week lows and the YOY returns are commensurate with most other asset classes.

 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:40 | 2460730 fuu
fuu's picture

"Afterall the retail guy does not own it up to his eyeballs already like he does gold."

You're fucking high.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 23:31 | 2461204 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

I resemble that remark

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 00:54 | 2461354 fuu
fuu's picture

Not that there is anything wrong with that per se.

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 01:58 | 2461421 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

could you maybe say something to my dad? 

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 09:07 | 2461846 fuu
fuu's picture

Tell him you learned by watching him.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:47 | 2460755 SPAREPARTS
SPAREPARTS's picture

Don't be waiting on Joe, he doesn.t have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Gold is driven by institutions or its over. just an opinion

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:16 | 2460493 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

It was a good question.  Made me think.

Also, it makes me feel better that I've purchased my gold when the money was a monthly "surplus", not at a time when things really get tough and I need the money.

Joe Sixpack will buy at the peak with money he can't afford to spend.  Sad.  But thats what makes it a market top - when people are gambling with money they can't afford to lose on an outcome that has little chance of happening.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:25 | 2460521 malikai
malikai's picture

All good questions above.

But are we all considering the likely outcome or a possible outcome?

The reference here is, are we talking about a currency collapse or are we talking about a traditional market top? They're very much different.

In a currency collapse, all bet are off. Everyone takes every remaining useful piece of credit or liquidity and turns it into something real, or loses all value it holds.

In a market top, suckers are going long and getting crushed.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:30 | 2460541 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

Good point.  And since I don't intend to try to time a market and sell at the "top" I spend little time contemplating it.  I think of PM's as insurance.

I think the "gold bubble" discussion occurs in a functioning market, where there is a top and then a sell-off. 

We may not find ourselves in the midst of something so orderly.

Both of the above could happen though.  One after the other.  Paper gold bubble, market "top", selloff (perhaps set off by economic collapse of some kind that drives ppl into dollars, appears deflationary), into which Joe sells his paper at rock bottom prices, while some of us buy more physical.  Then the "solution" to the collapse comes via money-printing, at which time those who haven't bought and held physical realize they should have.  ??

Your guess is as good as mine.  If I have PM's I sleep better at night.  I worry little about a "chance to sell at the top".

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:35 | 2460562 malikai
malikai's picture

It's more about survival than getting rich picking tops. But I do appreciate the paper markets for the very predictable fleecing routines the kind folks at the Morgue play which I use to aquire more physical.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:43 | 2460578 devo
devo's picture

I have a hard time envisioning a currency collapse any time soon (i.e. 5 years), but 10 to 15 years, sure. I think trading in dollars for Yuan is a good deal. I know they're all paper, but that paper should appreciate over that time period.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:29 | 2460846 GernB
GernB's picture

Right now the market is being driven by two sides: one that understands the severity of Europe and that without Ben dropping more money from a hellocopter markets will continue to slide, and the other that beleives stocks are undervalued, Technocrats will save us anyway, and this is the bottom. The technocrats are back to playing the chumps by making vague remarks everytime the selloff really gets under way, and the headline algos and poor delluded fools who suffer from extreme language comprension problems oblige by panic buying on every word.

The bottom will happen when the printing resumes and not before. We just need a little more panic in the markets to justify turning on the printing press.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:26 | 2460532 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

You're all missing something: it's only a bit about Joe Six anymore. Meet Tsingtao Min. And Kingfisher Deepak. 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:38 | 2460545 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

Very true.  

Not only do they matter, but I also wonder, after listening to comments on ZH: "How can we be at a top in gold if even the goldbugs still want to buy more?"

I don't know about y'all, but I'll buy buying more if I can, and price really doesn't do all that much to disuade me.  We haven't even gotten close to the end of goldbug buying, much less meeting Chinese or Indian demand, all which will likely occur before Joe Six even notices gold.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:39 | 2460571 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Jesus Negra Mordelo also should be included in that list.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:55 | 2460613 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

Pardoname senor.  CLCC

Compre Las Caidas Chingadas!

I hope that translates.......Rosetta Stone hasn't covered that yet.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:35 | 2460868 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

And when the Chindia sheeple have had enough of the markets....look out below.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:25 | 2460649 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

So the posts here last year about maxxing out credit cards to buy silver when it was around $40 were what exactly?

The tupperware gold parties are what exactly?

The endless infomercials buy gold here, sell gold there are what exactly?

The $700billion that the retail traders withdrew from equities went where exactly?

To pay bills? Try again.

I could give out the mnia and still mania would not come up.

why should anyone believe that the retail investor doesn't already own a disproportionate amount of gold relative to their investment portfolios?

There is nothing besides hopium that has come up around here.

 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:33 | 2460554 bdc63
bdc63's picture

I don't know of many (actually, I don't know of ANY) gold and silver coin dealers that will take credit cards.  Usually they require a check, and don't ship the metals until it has cleared and they have the money in the bank.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:53 | 2460607 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

You can use cards on internet dealers sites.  They just make you pay more to cover the transaction % on the card.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:09 | 2460803 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Joe Sixpack is just a danmed fool if he isnt maxing out his credit cards buying gold and silver in anticipation of defualting on the payments.

Who is really gonna give two shits about phone calls from collection firms when TSHTF.

 

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 00:15 | 2461305 peekcrackers
peekcrackers's picture

+1 Devo

the best part of " joe " not intending to pay back on the the cedit cards " will be like beating JPM at they'er own game. They dont intend on ever paying out.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:24 | 2460527 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Joe sixpack doesn't have any gold, other than the ring he put on wifey's finger.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:33 | 2460555 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

That aint no gold, it is Aureate-Bronze-plated Nickel.
And it aint no diamond, it is a cubic zirconia.
Anyway, the wifey took the ring to the pawnshop back in 2008. She got just enough for a case of Michelob light.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:53 | 2460771 SPAREPARTS
SPAREPARTS's picture

got that right Papasmurf

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:41 | 2460735 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

I think it provides a lot of people/companies who are/were in euros a place to hide out while currencies race to the bottom.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:58 | 2460430 spinone
spinone's picture

They need the cash because we are in deflation

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:46 | 2460379 brainwashed
brainwashed's picture

Shouldn't this info be viewed as a contrarian indicator? Normally the public buys into hype at the highs and sells into panic at the lows. If retail clients are pulling money out there could be two reasons:

1) they don't feel they can invest effectively by themselves and would rather go through so-called pros (i.e. mutual funds, hedge funds)

2) they are short on cash and selling their holdings to cover expenses

All in all, I see this long-term development as net positive for equity markets

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:49 | 2460393 moldygoat
moldygoat's picture

Shouldn't this info be viewed as a contrarian indicator?

I think in the new normal, the contrarian indicator is a contrarian indicator.

I would go all in.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:54 | 2460413 Joe The Plumber
Joe The Plumber's picture

You are either really witty or an idiot

I am not smart enough to figure it out

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:38 | 2460874 GernB
GernB's picture

Um. Let me diagram that... The fact there were only 4% gold bulls a few days ago is a contrarian indicator that gold had hit the bottom, which, in the new normal, is a contrarian indicator that I should sell all my gold. Got it. I need to go call a gold dealer now.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:52 | 2460406 malikai
malikai's picture

Margin requirements are being reduced so that effectiveness of hiking margins exists when gold hits $1900 again. There is something positive: There will be at least 1 sucker cut to pieces by going long at $1900. I can say this with confidence as the crimex has existed for this long.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:34 | 2460558 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

It wasn't a net positive in Japan. 2013 is a set-up for an earnings letdown and P/E multiple compression. Go check out the aggregate bottom up forecasts overlaid against the inventory cycle. All the momentum in PEG ratios, rate of change, etc, are fixing to go the other way.

Greece is a sideshow. Short on good news.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:49 | 2460385 nasa
nasa's picture

This trend will continue until we see a perp walk or two.  Seeing Jaime, Lloyd, and Corzine in leg shackles might get me back into the market. 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:05 | 2460795 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

And Obama into a second term.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:48 | 2460386 xtop23
xtop23's picture

Anyone with any sense, cashed out their 401k and left the building a long time ago.

Mandatory treasury purchases with your retirement can't be far away now.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:52 | 2460403 devo
devo's picture

I'm in my 30s and will take a 35% hit if I cash out. I'm wondering if it's worth it. Right now I'm all out and sitting in cash in that account.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:55 | 2460417 malikai
malikai's picture

Look at it this way, you either take the 35% hit now, or you get 100% of some unbelieveably low number paid for in treasurys yielding (-10%,-20%,-50%, i don't know..) real.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:58 | 2460427 devo
devo's picture

I know...that's what I was thinking. I was hoping housing would be marked to market so I could take it out with only a 25% hit as a first time buyer, but that's not going to happen...

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:56 | 2460418 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

If your contract decreases penalty within year or two, buy paper gold/silver and keep until you get smaller penalties.

If penalties are always 35%, better cash out early, while banks are still open.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:58 | 2460429 Joe The Plumber
Joe The Plumber's picture

Makes me wonder if this dumb retail investor should go all in. I dont want to, but I am also a contrary indicator

So maybe I should, but i am too scared so i wont

Therefor the market is guaranteed to rise

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:03 | 2460451 spinone
spinone's picture

http://jimhemphill.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/shiller-cape1.jpg

buy when the graph goes below the green line.  sell when the graph goes above the red line.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:59 | 2460433 pacu44
pacu44's picture

I'm in my 30s and will take a 35% hit if I cash out. I'm wondering if it's worth it. Right now I'm all out and sitting in cash in that account.

 

By all means, wait and take 100% hit... It is your patriotic duty, just listen to the talking box in your living room...

 

No one but Paul.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:00 | 2460442 xtop23
xtop23's picture

I took it in the rear a bit last year when I liquidated my 401k yeah. The only cash I have in there is money that can't be removed.

2013 is going to be worse for removal on the tax front if you leave it in there then decide you'd rather not.

Fish or cut bait I'd say.

$27 seems like a pretty good time to pick up some Ag with those FRN's. You should make out nicely long term and regain what you lost in tax liability. 

You also get the satisfaction of starving the beast and relaxing knowing you hold something real.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:04 | 2460456 Landrew
Landrew's picture

You will always take the 35% hit if you are in a 401k/403b. It's the 10% penalty that is the kicker. Your total tax + penalty = 45%! That's how they keep you locked in.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 23:39 | 2461224 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

401k's are an illusion to move liquidity to a casino part of the system. The problem is that the party is over, and people want to cash out. 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:13 | 2460480 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

There are multiple exemptions.  

And multiple ways to offset any penalty you pay be decreasing your tax liability by using the money in the right way.  Start a business, and you'll have "operating losses" for years to counteract that 35%, plus the opportunity to actually make money off of the cash.  Thats just one way.  There are many.

They write these loopholes into the laws for themselves. You just have to find them.  Then do the math to see if its worth it.  

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:59 | 2460784 Max Cynical
Max Cynical's picture

Cashed out my SEP/IRA in January.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:04 | 2460794 SPAREPARTS
SPAREPARTS's picture

companies have assets, they will go down but not to 0, eox,jnj,ibm are not going out of business, least I dont think so, cash is a risk, Mining not a bad place to be given your choices

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:44 | 2460882 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

Devo:                        Good for you.  Stay there until blood runs in the streets and then buy only the best of the best.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:08 | 2460802 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

They've suddenly and quietly made it easier for the Chinese to buy our Treasuries which is scary in itself.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:53 | 2460409 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

aaaaand they're gone

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:58 | 2460431 bobnoxy
bobnoxy's picture

If you can't spot the sucker at the table, it's you. The game is being run by computers, short term traders and gamblers, none of whom care one bit about fundamentals. I sat down, saw that I was the sucker, and got the hell out.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:59 | 2460437 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

I tell everyone I know/meet that the stock market is a bankster bot controlled con-job.  I highly urge them to remove all their money from the market, even if they have to pay the 10% penalty... which is another scam in itself.

We all must opt out.  If you are a trader, or keep fiat currency in a retirement fund or a bank, you are enabling this fiat fraud and the criminal banksters system.  

Please get out now while you still can. 

 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:08 | 2460470 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

You do realize that sentiment such as yours is when truly sustainable bull markets are born.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:45 | 2460810 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

It's also indicative of a Depression if past history counts for anything.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:11 | 2460472 brainwashed
brainwashed's picture

Your argument is quite convincing.

But I need advice, I'd like to buy several shares of a well-run small company, how should I do it if there is no price discovery mechanism of the market?

 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:15 | 2460484 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

Don't worry. Live for the moment.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:22 | 2460519 brainwashed
brainwashed's picture

thanks for the tip, buddy.

I'm just perplexed with the fact that most retail clients lose money when they behave as traders and not investors and then turn around and blame the system, which they hoped to use to get rich quick.

Before anyone dips their toes into the market, they should know that stats show that 80% of frequently trading accounts are underwater over a 12 month period and even higher percentage over larger periods. So, yes, people should get the hell out of the market if they are in it for speculation. The math is not on your side.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:18 | 2460826 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

If you're going to buy at all, buy the way Buffet, Soros and the smart money vultures do:  Buy when blood is running in the streets.  Then sit back and wait for the sheeple to buy at the next top. 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:01 | 2460447 theTribster
theTribster's picture

Leaves just the robots creating their own headlines and then consuming them, that ought to create some interesting trading days - maybe like yesterday and today?  This also tends to make it more obvious that manipulation is occurring  because it tends to be more extreme, less resistence from the sheep.

Uncertainty is one of the biggest reasons for the pull out, not just the lose of faith in the markets although that plays a substantial role. The hardcore folks must finally be exiting, to me this means that they don't know how to position themselves so better to hold the cash - typical response to uncertainty in the markets.

Europe is at the root of it but China plays a role as well now that the term hard landing is back in the daily financial news. JP Morgan coupled with MF Global, Bernie Madoff and the fact that most people know someone that has had a pension slashed and or lost a job - these conditions and events are wearing on everyone's psyche, especailly investors because they know it matters.

Hopefully, they remember to handle their 401k and IRAs as well otherwise they'll sorry at the end of the year when the global financial system goes tits-up.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:12 | 2460478 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

China will introduce a giant stimulus, central banks will print and Europe will kick the can down the road. Just saying.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:22 | 2460685 poor fella
poor fella's picture

Gooood Times!!

Be thankful there are plans in place and one just needs patience to let them play out. I'd sure like to know what I'm waiting for though.

At least the world isn't like it was last year [and year before [and year before [and year before [and year before [and year before [and [and]]]]]]]!!  pffffffft

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:04 | 2460454 ITrustMyGut
ITrustMyGut's picture

This data gives me a chubby, actually. Even though it does make it easier to manipulate.. it gives me *hope* that the joint is slowly... waking up!

Have aguy next ot me at work.. been BTFD with FB >,< despite my best efforts to wake him with ZH Articles... /sigh

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:06 | 2460460 I should be working
I should be working's picture

So now it only takes an 7% correction to get all the weak hands to fold?

Bye bye retail suckers, see you in 2013!!!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:18 | 2460504 Joe The Plumber
Joe The Plumber's picture

They folded long before the seven percent drop. You are talking to permabears and eventually they will be right

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:25 | 2460481 Morrotzo
Morrotzo's picture

Retail knows it is a rigged game. Facebook wasn't just this little thing.

"Oh enough about Facebook. It isn't important."

No, it is important. It is the final nail in the retail investor coffin. It is a completely exposing and embarrassing incident. It is as if the stock market was financial pro wrestling and they violated kayfabe on a 100 billion dollar scale. Morgan Stanley and Mark Zuckerburg stopped the match, turned to the hard cameras and said "It's all bullshit, folks. Totally rigged bullshit." The behavior surrounding it and the subsequent lawsuits of insider trading, full disclosure violations, rigged robo-trading and stock price manipulation will do it. Any retail guy not getting burned to a crisp by Facebook is watching every other retail retardo getting burnt to a crisp on Facebook. Afterwards everybody will listen to the retail retardos when they tell retail to get out and stay out because Facebook burned their collective retard ass to a crisp.

 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:17 | 2460499 KandiRaverHipster
KandiRaverHipster's picture

people with real responsibilities need the money.  luckily i'm in my mid 20s and don't believe in doing anything with my money but buying physical things like food, partying, Diablo III, silver ingots and an occasional dinner date with my girl

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:43 | 2460896 skepticCarl
skepticCarl's picture

Hipster, make sure that she picks up her share of the checks.

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 10:31 | 2462164 KandiRaverHipster
KandiRaverHipster's picture

i am a gentleman, a scholar and a Paladin.  she pays for naught!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:23 | 2460523 Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture

 

 

JFC, if this keeps up pretty soon there's going to be a shortage of muppets!

 

long on muppets bitchez...

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 04:50 | 2461542 Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture

 

 

 

 

Can we rehypothecate muppets??

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 18:38 | 2460567 Floodmaster
Floodmaster's picture

When money becomes zuckerized...This is the last act, the US will default on its debt. Depression is coming ...

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:29 | 2460848 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

Depression is here; the markets are a farce.  With fiat currencies racing to the bottom, the Dow companies holding their overseas profits in Euros have no where to put it now unless they move it to oil/gold whose prices are fortunately/conveniently down now.  They can't repatriate it without paying heavy taxes.  2013 will be a year with a lot of bad numbers for global companies.  Look out below.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:02 | 2460628 q99x2
q99x2's picture

The FED, the banks and some hedge funds own all the corporations. Its a conspiracy.

I always see workers in the office of a nearby Scottrade. They must be cancelling accounts and handling the final withdrawals post zuckered.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:13 | 2460666 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

So muppets are leaving the train?

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:43 | 2460750 covert
covert's picture

jim henson would love the free promotion of his business.

http://covert.ias3.com/expose/

 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 19:43 | 2460748 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

Joe six pack sold his gold two years ago and has no credit.  When the 99 weeks and food stamps stop he will get his gun.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:23 | 2460836 skepticCarl
skepticCarl's picture

As has been pointed out by many on previous posts relating to this topic, most of the retail money going out of equity mutual funds goes into the new ETF's.  When these puppies loose their following, let me know.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 20:53 | 2460917 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Hilarious how "stupid retail" has been 100% correct by piling into bond funds, 35-years worth of dollar cost averaging, 100% of all those buys are now in a winning position.

Biggest bull market in financial market history, and the "GUMS" have been correctly positioned the entire time by dumping equities and running pell mell into bond funds, muni-bonds, and money market funds.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 21:06 | 2460945 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Fuck off poser.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 23:03 | 2461069 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

RT!  you're back!

i junked you first!

the devil is in the detail that retail has high-tailed w/ the do-re-mi due to the fat tail of fail, and youR outa jail!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 22:34 | 2461120 fuu
fuu's picture

It's awesome you're getting the band back together man!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 23:24 | 2461167 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

joliet robo

...1 metric ton of retail bullshit, ...1 fake rolex, ... 1 (is that a paisley?) bra, ...

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 00:08 | 2461299 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Robo ! Welcome back ! I'm the third red !!!

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 21:26 | 2460993 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

And the primary count for the SP500 weekly remains wave 3 down.

 

http://bullandbearmash.com/index/sp-500/weekly/

 

 

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 21:30 | 2461005 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

 

 

Is the retail exodus at all tied to retirees selling stocks?

 

Just wondering how much of this is demographic and not necessarily a consumer choice for "investment".

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 22:20 | 2461099 michaelsmith_9
michaelsmith_9's picture

Stocks are set to make a big move lower next.  An intermarket analysis approach tells us that a risk-off currency move like a bearish AUDJPY agrees with the bearish bias.  The wave count suggest a big move lower will unfold next.  www.marketoverflow.com

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 22:37 | 2461127 WallowaMountainMan
WallowaMountainMan's picture

"the "dumb" money pulled another $3.5 billion out of domestic stocks per ICI, bringing the total tally to 13 consecutive weeks of outflows, and 52 weeks of outflows in the past 56 weeks, with redemptions amounting to $46 billion in 2012, compared to just $6.5 billion for the same period in 2011"

perfect. only 'real players' are left. that means if the fed sits still and forces the hand in europe to be played out, us everyday folk won't get hurt as bad. to ease that pain, there will be cheaper oil, etc. betcha common folk be happier.

corporations happy too. big big piles of stronger dollar cash sittin there waitin, patiently, to buy whatever.

i know i'm harpin on it. but really.

zh has the ability to run this scenario in detail. check it out. tear it apart. even 'nanex' it.

be patient fed. patient. usa is your home team. win now.

never have to worry about exit strategy. no reverse repo do da day problems. etc.

:)

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 08:43 | 2461753 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

Retail needs to eat

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