The Rise Of The State

Tyler Durden's picture

The ever increasing un-invisible hand of intervention, manipulation, and disintermediation by central planning regimes around the world is an oft-quoted topic among our discussions. UBS's Global Macro Team published a thoughtful piece late last week on global political issues and the rise of the state.

From Paul Donovan of UBS Global Macro Team

The Rise Of The State

Governments are encroaching into more and more areas of the world economy. This is not just through political drama (as we have seen in the Euro area), nor even through the conventional mechanisms of foreign exchange intervention. Regulation (and regulatory uncertainty), sovereign wealth funds, bond market manipulation and default risks all play a role in financial markets, and all are intensely political in their nature.

There Is No Place Like Home

A more politically nuanced world raises an interesting unintended consequence for global financial markets. Directly, as a result of increased regulation, or indirectly, as a result of increased costs associated with assessing foreign political risk, investors may feel that the rise of the state will increase the home country bias of capital flows - exactly as leaders look for global burden sharing.

The Euro

The Euro continues to represent a mass of political risks, most of which are of course divorced from conventional political assessment. The Euro area is struggling with regulatory, default, and fiscal risk of course, but also with negotiations over the de facto surrender of sovereignty for the collective good of the monetary union. The problems here are changing so frequently it seems useless to speculate on specific outcomes. However one concern is that political and economic objectives are not necessarily coinciding.

Forthcoming elections

Even amidst the specific concerns of the Euro, the electoral calendar does contain some important dates. Spain goes to the polls in November, with polls indicating a new government is likely. New Zealand also has a general election, and Egypt is supposed to begin its process of transition to democracy – albeit slowly.

UBS - The Rise of the State

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Michael's picture

I just thank God for the complete and total worldwide economic collapse so governments won't have very much money to pay police state enforcers anymore.

Vic Vinegar's picture

Not going to happen.  Rather tomorrow will bring:

  • Tyler and friends continue yeoman's work 
  • Graham Summers tells us it's all going to implode soon 
  • the government pays people to come on here and blame "the jews" 
  • Margaret Brennan doesn't get laid 
  • talk of a Eurozone crisis continues and yet nothing changes
Akrunner907's picture

Margaret Brennan does look lonely. 

The Peak Oil Poet's picture



she should hang out at the new American military base to be set up in Australia


it's funny how stupid Australians are - they are all being misled by debate on gay marriage and selling uranium to India while the Julia Gillard government in cahoots with the opposition turns Australia into a nuclear target


it's mind numbing how they get away with it



Oh regional Indian's picture

Pops, it's happening everywehre. Everyone is focused on the right hand. India was similarly distracted by a huge anti-corruption movement over the past 2-3 months while huge scams and most importantly, NEW NUCLEAR PROJECTS were announced, huge scandals that were un-folding were distracted from.... it's a standard playbook.


Plus, all of us "Commonwealth"  nations don't know if our constitutions/judiciary are even valid. Someone from NZ did a huge expose on that recently.

All in all, it's not just the rise of the state, it's the rise of Communism/Fascism.

Fascinating. Fascism, Fascinate....hmmmmmmmmm.... interesting....



Mandlebrot Magic

i-dog's picture

"turns Australia into a nuclear target"

So ... China is going to nuke Darwin because a few American troops are on rotation there? Wow ... your strategic analysis is amazing!

I'd be more concerned that the Australian Government will use the troops and their equipment to fight Australian domestic trrrrrrrsts!

Oh regional Indian's picture

i-dog, actually there is Major American Military presence in Oz (don't have sources handy). Especially HAARP stations, Mil Intelligence kind of stuff. I'll post the link if I find it. But OZ is definitely being reigned into the Fold.


i-dog's picture

Thanks, ORI. I've spent quite a lot of time in Australia and find it sad that they don't realise just how controlled they already are. The PM is as far left as they come and has broken almost as many promises as Obomber, yet the opposition leader and probable next PM is a freaking Jesuit! Lose-lose for the Aussies in their next election! (Identical situation to a choice between Obomber and Gingrich in the US).

Oh regional Indian's picture

Hah! Aren't we lucky in India. We have a Vatican blessed puppet Italian as the most powerful woman in this country. 

And now her dynasty is taking hold. Nuts!

And them Jesuits... ......  ........trouble. Have you read the secret (not so secret obviously) Jesuit manual? Scary stuff.


i-dog's picture

I've read some Jesuit stuff, but if you read one NWO manifesto you've read them all. They are all derived from (and sponsored by) the Jesuits ... Illuminati, higher-degree Masons, Mormons, Round Table, Trilateral, CFR, Bilderberg, John Birch, CNP ... the whole fucking lot were created by them as part of their ongoing hegelian dialectic exercises to meet the needs of the moment. It wouldn't surprise me if Hegel was trained by them, too! (note to self: must look into that).

Oh regional Indian's picture

yep, the Vatican Attack Dogs...


i-dog's picture

Partly. They started out in 1534 as the "Pope's militia" (allegedly), but they quickly became (if indeed they weren't right from the start) in opposition to orthodox catholicism and battled the Vatican hierarchy until they finally gained control of it from 1878. During those earlier centuries, they were expelled from around 83 countries due to their political machinations - and many of those expulsions were from catholic countries and were ordered by the pontiffs of the day!

Carlyle Groupie's picture

What government are you talking about?

You must comply Vic. Boycott Israel and The US government will target you.

DavidPierre's picture


The Super Committee Farce is next.

Next Wednesday is the farce deadline for the Congressional "super committee" to come up with between $1.2-$1.5 Trillion of cuts that were promised back in August when the debt limit was raised. First off, this amount is basically a "ham sandwich" compared to what the real problem is.

This $1.5 Trillion is over 10 YEARS so it amounts to a mere $120-150 Billion per year.

To put this in perspective, we have already spent an additional $600 Billion+ in just over 3 months since the debt deal so the concept really is laughable. What is even more laughable will be when they they deadlock and cannot come up with any cuts!

Assuming that they do actually come up with a plan,... What will "normalized" interest rates do to these plans?

If interest rates were to rise to the lofty levels of say just 5%, how much is that on $20 Trillion (where we will be in less than 3 years) worth of debt? The calculator says...$1 Trillion per year...EVERY YEAR in interest alone! Heck, 5% on an additional $5 Trillion is $250 Billion which dwarfs these proposed fantasy cuts by this super committee.

The immediate problem is that this fiscal wrangling will bring the U.S. back into the financial spotlight, something they can ill afford.

Better to point fingers at European deadbeats so the world is distracted fom looking under our hood where the real problem is!

Complacency abounds everywhere ... face the fact of a 100% mathematically assured financial collapse that ends with new currencies being issued.

It is only a matter of time and "how many zero's" are added to Gold and Silver's prices when the current currencies go the way of the Dodo bird.

How anyone can miss this as it could not be more obvious. Governments far and wide including... especially the U.S. have debt levels (denominated in already fake and worthless pieces of paper) that are unsustainable and cannot be paid back even with interest rates at zero. Factor in "real" interest rates that are not negative and the top blows off this baby!

Were the U.S. to back just it's debt held by foreigners, Gold would need to be priced at nearly $20,000 per ounce. If it were priced to back the admitted and "on the books debt", that number is over $60,000, expand it to cover the "off books debt and obligations" and you arrive a tover $400,000 per ounce.

Of course this assumes that we have the Gold that we say we do, ...likely or unlikely?

Today's bond buyers are "investing" in entities that cannot be paid back in even the current worthless currencies.  They will be paid back in EVEN MORE worthless, if that's possible, paper!

It makes no sense. It is this very core belief, namely that "government bonds are the height of safety" that will be the undoing of the whole system.

The "lunatics"... those who believe in hard and real currency... will finally get to run the asylum in a fair and just manner where "settlement" is actually real and accomplished for trade and payment of wages and debts!

Michael's picture

Complacency abounds everywhere in the face of a 100% mathematically assured financial collapse that ends with new currencies being issued.

That is a fact Jack. Thank God for the 100% mathematical certainty. 

Under a gold standard, a loaf of bread can cost 10 cents.

Michael's picture


These two get along swell together.

Nancy Pelosi and Newt Gingrich Commercial on Climate Change

DavidPierre's picture

That ad would have appealed to every ameriKlan if they had just brought Ronnie Reagan's corpse dancing in at the end.

Go to:


mtomato2's picture

Including me.  I liked Reagan.. Fuck you.

topshelfstuff's picture

""""""""It is only a matter of time and "how many zero's" are added to Gold and Silver's prices when the current currencies go the way of the Dodo bird."""""

I have posted about this several times, and firmly believe its Two Zero's to be added. This is the Only way to seriously address the US Debt. The Only way to make it possible to Pay and Erase that Debt. By adding Two Zero's the Current Debt is Payable at 1%, 1/100th, of its Current Dollar Valuation, with NEW US Dollars.

The US "Paper" would be made Payable in full, no default, just with New US Dollars.

At the same time the other Major Problems, like the Mortgage Fiasco Disaster, that must be dealt with, is also done away with.

A rough draft of how this would work, and of course it needs to be worked on, is the following:

A Bank Holiday [Closing] is called, perhaps for One Week. ALL CASH is called in, and those Dollars are Exchanged for NEW Dollars. The New Dollars will be 100 times the Face Value of the "Old"/Current Dollars. Bank account Balances would be adjusted. Its only the outstanding CASH that needs to be exchanged...after this date the current dollars would not be acceptable, so they have to be turned in.

Mortgage Debt would be kept Fixed, as-is, priced in Current Dollars, yet Payable with the New Dollars. There would also be a need to scrap all the problematic Mortgages, doing away with the multitude of questions re: The Note, who actually has the mortgage, Title, etc.....All that swept away and replaced with a Clear Clean Mortgage.

The other Item to address would be Student Loans. These also would be handled as the Mortgages. IOW, Student Loans would remain priced as-is and Payable with New Dollars. (these 2 items, at least)

Of course, a person's Pay, lets say for example a person making $800 a Week currently, would then get a Pay of $80,000...though of course the $3 loaf of read would then cost $300...all in all nothing really changes except the Currency.

Commodities would also see the Two Zero's added. An ounce of Silver at $3,500 New Dollars would be equally Valued to a person at $35 Today.

Consider that much of the world already has their Currency like this. The YEN a great example.

mtomato2's picture


Except student loans are the future indentured servitude to the Federal Government.

They'll NEVER relieve us of them.  Period.

disabledvet's picture

yeah, well--how exactly does "the rise of The State" correspond with "The Collapse of private Sovereign Credits" again? They're friggin' defaulting with the entire CONTINENT of Europe becoming a case study in the perils default. Those nations will NEVER recover. The fact of the matter is the CDS has destroyed pretty much the entirety of governments worldwide save for either the United States (which is too liquid to fail) and very small "city states" (Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc) which simply don't have the capital demands which require the use of CDS contracts or probably more true and certainly most importantly "the economic intelligence" to deal with them in the first place.

rwe2late's picture

investors may feel that the rise of the state will increase the home country bias of capital flows - exactly as leaders look for global burden sharing.”

“Rise” of the state? How about demise of the state? How about the subordination of governments to the oligopoly of larger-than-most-states global enterprises and those who head those enterprises?

The author confuses the “regulations” designed to suppress local competitors with the deregulation (in fact or in practice) of uncontrolled trans-national corporations.

The author uncritically accepts the pretense that the “global sharing“ of the “burden” is to be done within nation states, but not by global enterprises. That pretense cleverly posits the mistaken notion that accepting the burdens of such sharing is the “patriotic” thing to do. Actually, of course, it is quite the opposite, as the wealth of each nation is to be diverted away and auctioned off.

How little different in concept is it from the heads of a large corporation demanding sacrifices from each department in order to maintain rigged company accounts and CEO profligacy?

The state “leaders” are Goldman Sachs et al insiders whose only intention is to insure that the burdens are not “shared” by their elite club. They will use their control of both international and national organizations to accomplish that purpose. The “bias” is not toward nations, not even to the national hub of empire, but for the network of power and wealth that now holds sway over both national governments and international organizations.

lolmao500's picture

Who is John Galt basically?

slowimplosion's picture

John Jamie Dimon Galt?  John Lloyd Blankfein Galt?  John Angelo Mozilo Galt?


John Galt is a fictionaly character like Superman or Batman, the only difference being that some people actuallty believe he's real.

nmewn's picture

"Who is John Galt basically?"

One of the highly productive 49% of any population who has grown weary of exerting 100% only to recieve 50% pay for his efforts as he supports the other 51% + himself.

disabledvet's picture

No. It's more like "Who is Jerry Sandusky and why is playing with the little boys again?"

Voluntary Exchange's picture

Those who choose human cooperation rather than fraud, theft, and initiation of force.  The most dangerous of the non-"human" class  seeks out "monopolies of force" as tools so that they might steal, lie, and kill with impunity. So .....



"Let's Make a Deal"



Political power is the path to destruction.  Sooner or later "humans" will figure that out and keep all their individual power and control over the "non-humans" by resorting to free markets to provide key security and justice services instread of giving some gang a monopoly of force and then hoping to find "justice" by forcing one group's views upon others by guns and through political power capture. 


"Democracy- The Joke's on You!" - By Larken Rose


Troy Ounce's picture



Hayek’s central thesis is that all forms of collectivism  lead logically and inevitably to tyranny. He further argued that the failure of central planning would be perceived by the public as an absence of sufficient power by the state to implement an otherwise good idea. Such a perception would lead the public to vote more power to the state, and would assist the rise to power of a “strong man” perceived to be capable of “getting the job done”. After these developments Hayek argued that a country would be ineluctably driven into outright totalitarianism. For Hayek “the road to serfdom” inadvertently set upon by central planning, with its dismantling of the free market system, ends in the destruction of all individual economic and personal freedom.

Carlyle Groupie's picture

We all travel “the road to serfdom”. There is a fork in the road where you must take action in order to get to high ground.

Recognize that PM's are preferred monetary units for commerce. If you are a business owner accept PM's as payment for goods and services. It's time to go-live with the transition.

Discredit jew confetti as the other path to the lowlands.

tarsubil's picture

This won't work while PMs are grossly undervalued.

caerus's picture

l'etat c'est moi

- louis xiv (and the rest of the bastards)

DavidPierre's picture



Honnête argent!   La seule réponse!
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Dreaming you will find a safe haven country to reside in, that has fascist free government, run by honest politicians, is like choosing Cut-throat Island as home sweet home. There's nowhere (politically) to run.

caerus's picture

l'homme est libre au moment qu'il veut l'être.

DavidPierre's picture
Le secret de la liberté est courage.
caerus's picture

ego illud adsentior davidpierre

DavidPierre's picture

Gratias agimus tibi! I videtur? Mea latine est malus.

caerus's picture

better than most, my friend! you are a gentleman and a scholar! cheers!

WonderDawg's picture

You're up early, Caerus, or maybe up late. I hope you had a great weekend celebrating a big win last week. Cheers to you, sir.

Seer's picture

So, it's not that corporations are controlling governments?  And in their doing they are effectively collectivizing?

As far as Hayek and "collectivism" goes, it IS a natural tendency to coalesce when energy is applied.  Heck, capitalism really comes down to INCREASING capital, which IS a collective action (concentration).

All said, centralized power is not a good thing.  And, BIG = FAIL!

I'd think that people would get more traction out of dropping the direct referencing of "State" and just go with "centralized power."

War is the Health of the State - Randolph Borne

War Is A Racket - Smedley Butler

I'll make this point for the umpteenth time- if you want property rights "protected" then you're asking for the power of the State.  Where this road leads is clear, we see this today- MASSIVE "ENFORCEMENT" powers.  I'm NOT arguing AGAINST property rights, I'm just (repeatedly) asking the tough question of how we can have them and NOT end up with a police state.

Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Seer... "I'll make this point for the umpteenth time- if you want property rights "protected" then you're asking for the power of the State. Where this road leads is clear, we see this today- MASSIVE "ENFORCEMENT" powers. I'm NOT arguing AGAINST property rights, I'm just (repeatedly) asking the tough question of how we can have them and NOT end up with a police state."


Our founding fathers anticipated the growth of the US Gov and attempted to limit it with the catch all phrase 'all powers not specifically assigned to the Federal Gov are reserved for the individual states' (paraphrased).

Lincoln, whether purposely or not, took the very large first step down the road to turning the tables and making the individual states subservient to the Fed government. The US Civil War was in fact the first step toward US Imperialism, followed by the Spanish-American War in 1898, etc.

At the time of the US Civil War slaves were the largest single asset class in America. In effect Lincoln, by freeing the slaves, destroyed the single largest 'property right' in America by eliminating the single largest asset class in America. (BTW, I am not in favor of slavery and believe that slavery should have never existed in the US... or, anywhere). From the end of the Civll War through 'reconstruction' and until this day there has been no turning back, no giving back to states the 'powers reserved unto them' and there has only esisted a continuous build up of power within the Federal Government. Each new war brought new power and expansion to the Fed Gov.

This is a long winded way of saying 'there is no way to insure individual property rights UNLESS the US Constitution is strictly adhered to... and we both know that over time no piece of paper is strictly adhered to. Any soverign government held in check by a piece of paper will find a way, usually war, to circumvent it's restraints.

What are the alternatives? Anarchy, which is by definition rule by the strongest and devoid of property rights for any that are not well connected to the tyrant du jour.

Socialism, which is what e have now in the US for the joe six packs along with heavy dose of fascism for the Fed Gov and it's supporters, big biz and big finance (a symbiotic relationship).

Capitalism saw a spectular bust in the crash of 29 and the Great Depression. It is little noted in history texts today but FDR intorduced many socialist programs to prevent revolution, ousting of the Fed Gov and a turn to total communism, which had gained great traction among starving citizens in the US. The real reason that deflation is so feared among US pols and the Fed Reserve is that deflation is accompanied by the possibility of popular uprisings and revolutions. Isn't this why the Fed and Federal Gov print fiat in hopes of preventing deflation?

The founding fathers included a clause in the constitution that said if the citizens become fed up with a gevernment that has become tyrannical that the citizens have a right to call a constitutional convention and, basically, modify the constitution and oust the burdensome government. Of course, this is impossible today just as it was impossible in the time of Lincoln, LBJ, et al.

The US Gov, over time, has eroded almost all that was set down in the constitution.  Over time the republic morphs into an empire. We see it in Roman history, we see it in the US today. All empires have an 'expire by' date. But, will what follows offer property rights for the common man? I cannot answer your question.

i-dog's picture

"if you want property rights "protected" then you're asking for the power of the State"

Why does a failure of imagination always revert to "we must have a state"?!

Every individual, even a 2-yr-old, knows what is theirs. Every community knows what is theirs, who owns what, and where the boundaries to individual properties and the community as a whole lie. The only purpose of a "state" in this regard is to maintain a register - which could easily be provided by interoperating entrepreneurs. And, in this age of instant communication, full peer reviewed information can be easily accessed over the intertoobs by each individual.

As for enforcement: communities are well able to police transgressors through mediation, respected representatives and privately funded and competing security agencies (which ensures that no single agency becomes 'too big to control'). An armed community is also far more peaceful than one that depends on the arrival of an outside armed "force" to settle a dispute.

Your problem only arises because you are trying to find a one-size-fits-all (ie. collectivist) solution for over 300 million people scattered throughout tens of thousands of individual communities. For centuries, all these problems were solved at the 'parish' and 'county' levels, long before the central state was born. There are still many examples operating in remote communities, such as islands, rural backwaters and more "primitive" societies (as if modern American society isn't even more primitive)!

Problems only arise when there IS a central, corrupt state that IS too remote and 'too big to control'!!

Snidley Whipsnae's picture

"For centuries, all these problems were solved at the 'parish' and 'county' levels, long before the central state was born."


Not exactly... Your 'solution' does not recognize the greed of the 'rentier class'... a part of human nature... From 'Tin Horns and Calico"...

"Howard Zinn's short history of the Anti-Renter movement against the patroonship system, created in the 1660s when the Dutch ruled New York. The rich had vast land holdings and the tenants paid taxes and rents. The movement grew to 10,000 men and was finally put down by a cavalry unit of 3,000 who came up from New York City.

In 1839, around the time of the Dorr Rebellion in Rhode Island, when a deputy arrived in the farming area of in the Hudson Valley near Albany, New York, with writs demanding the rent, farmers suddenly appeared, assembled by the blowing of tin horns. They seized his writs and burned them.

That December, a sheriff and a mounted posse of 500 rode into the farm country, hut found themselves in the midst of shrieking tin horns, 1,800 farmers blocking their path, 600 more blocking their rear, all mounted, armed with pitchforks and clubs. The sheriff and his posse turned hack, the rear guard parting to let them through.

This was the start of the Anti-Renter movement, described by Henry Christman in Tin Horns and Calico. It was a protest against the patroonship system, which went back to the l600s when the Dutch ruled New York, a system where (as Christman describes it) “a few families, intricately intermarried, controlled the destinies of three hundred thousand people and ruled in almost kingly splendour near two million acres of land.”

The tenants paid taxes and rents. The largest manor was owned by the Rensselaer family, which ruled over about 80,000 tenants and had accumulated a fortune of $41 million. The landowner, as one sympathiser of the tenants put it, could “swill his wine, loll on his cushions, fill his life with society, food, and culture, and ride his barouche and five saddle horses along the beautiful river valley and up to the back- drop of the mountain.”

By the summer of 1839, the tenants were holding their first mass meeting. The economic crisis of 1837 had filled the area with unemployed seeking land, on top of the layoffs accompanying the completion of the Erie Canal, after the first wave of railroad building ended. That summer the tenants resolved: “We will take up the ball of the Revolution where our fathers stopped it and roll it to the final consummation of freedom and independence of the masses.”

Certain men in the farm country became leaders and organisers: Smith Boughton, a country doctor on horseback; Ainge Devyr, a revolutionary Irishman. Devyr had seen monopoly of land and industry bring misery to the slumdwellers of London, Liverpool, and Glasgow, had agitated for change, had been arrested for sedition, and fled to America. He was invited to address a Fourth of July rally of farmers in Rensselaerville, where he warned his listeners: “If you permit unprincipled and ambitious men to monopolise the soil, they will become masters of the country in the certain order of cause and effect…"

Thousands of farmers in Rensselaer country were organised into Anti-Rent associations to prevent the landlords from evicting. They agreed on calico Indian costumes, symbol of the Boston Tea Party and recalling original ownership of the soil. The tin horn represented an Indian call to arms. Soon 10,000 men were trained and ready.

Organising went on in county after county, in dozens of towns along the Hudson. Handbills appeared:... "

Remainder can be read here...

i-dog's picture

What is your point to pasting this book? That 10,000 men can easily be mobilised to defeat a takeover by a small number of rentiers?!

Snidley Whipsnae's picture

No, the point is that a rentier class will always arise and that your simple but elegant solution of anarchy will only aid and abet the aims of the rentier class. If you read Howards Zinn's history you will find that at the outset of revolution in the Hudson Valley the rentier class had no 'middle government structure'; ie, no large sheriffs departments with permanent deputies and therefore, no permanent law enforcement agency for the farmer/renters to fear.

Once one of the rentier class rode out to collect rent and was shot dead by farmers all of that changed immediately. The rentier class saw no reason why they should be shot when they could hire flunkys to enforce their laws.

So the first structure of bureaucrats was formed as sheriffs, deputies, clerks of court, construction of larger jails, county records office expansions, etc.

The rentier class had built an insulating layer of bureaucrats between themselves and the renter/farmers. Huge governments of today are a mere extension of this trend. Bureaucrats always strive to enlarge their little office into an entire building of underlings.

...and, the mobilisation of 10,000 men did not defeat a small number of rentiers, the mobilisation defeated the small renters/farmers... at least, it taught them that they had to use the ballot box or risk a trip to the gallows.

The problem lies in limiting government and the solution is not anarchy which leads to many but different problems as we face today. If anarchy really worked in large, complex societies why is it not in use today in large, complex societies?


CH1's picture

We have this new thing called communication, see? and it allows all those scattered pawns to communicate and know about the nasty things being done.

The state protects property rights all right - its own!

No, we do NOT need them.

Snidley Whipsnae's picture


"We have this new thing called communication, see? and it allows all those scattered pawns to communicate and know about the nasty things being done."


...and, who owns 'this new thing called communications'? Do you own/control it? Or, does the state own/control it?

You will be allowed to use 'this new thing called communication' until it becomes obvious to the state that it is a threat to their power... then the state will shut it down.

Optimusprime's picture

Unworthy reponse, Snoopie.  Well below your usual standard.  His point was clearly stated, and it was in reponse to your reminder that local community standards and solutions are what is needed (this, incidentally, is the stance of the Daily Bell, which calls for a return to tribal and common law absent so-called "universal jurisdiction").


He said, "Not exactly... Your 'solution' does not recognize the greed of the 'rentier class'... a part of human nature... From 'Tin Horns and Calico'..."


Well said.  This is an important debate, IMHO, and needs to be advanced, not cut short.


The issue was summarized decades ago by Albert J Nock, who remarked to the effect that any "government" strong enough to enforce property rights is strong enough to infringe them.  Seems like the world in which we live.