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Rogue Government Traders

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Mike Krieger

Federal employees whose compensation averages more than $126,000 and the nation’s greatest concentration of lawyers helped Washington edge out San Jose as the wealthiest U.S. metropolitan area, government data show.  The U.S. capital has swapped top spots with Silicon Valley, according to recent Census Bureau figures, with the typical household in the Washington metro area earning $84,523 last year. The national median income for 2010 was $50,046...The flow of federal dollars in and around the nation’s capital helped the region weather the economic slump better than most areas and is contributing to its recovery. The unemployment rate in the Washington metro area in August was 6.1 percent, compared with 10 percent in San Jose, according to Labor Department figures. Nationally, joblessness was 9.1 percent in September for a third straight month.  “The region did experience a shorter, shallower recession than San Jose,” said Sara Kline, a Washington analyst at Moody’s Analytics Inc. in West Chester, Pennsylvania. “The federal government stepped in to take efforts to dampen the recession. It was focused to some extent in the D.C. area as well, given the presence of federal workers there and contractors. That insulated it from more of a downturn.”

- Bloomberg article from yesterday

As a result of an amendment by Sen. Bernie Sanders to the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the Government Accountability Office completed its second audit of the Federal Reserve. This report focuses on the enormous conflicts of interest that existed at the Federal Reserve during the financial crisis. 

Here is what the GAO found:

-    The affiliations of the Federal Reserve's board of directors with financial firms continue to pose "reputational risks" to the Federal Reserve System.

-    The policy of the Federal Reserve to give members of the banking industry the power to both elect and serve on the Federal Reserve's board of directors creates "an appearance of a conflict of interest."

-    The GAO identified 18 former and current members of the Federal Reserve's board affiliated with banks and companies that received emergency loans from the Federal Reserve during the financial crisis including General Electric, JP Morgan Chase, and Lehman Brothers.

-    There are no restrictions on directors of the Federal Reserve Board from communicating concerns about their respective banks to the staff of the Federal Reserve.

-    Many of the Federal Reserve's board of directors own stock or work directly for banks that are supervised and regulated by the Federal Reserve. These board members oversee the Federal Reserve's operations including salary and personnel decisions.

-    Under current regulations, Fed directors who are employed by the banking industry or own stock in financial institutions can participate in decisions involving how much interest to charge to financial institutions receiving Fed loans; and the approval or disapproval of Federal Reserve credit to healthy banks and banks in "hazardous" condition.

-    The Federal Reserve does not publicly disclose its conflict of interest regulations or when it grants waivers to its conflict of interest regulations.

-    21 members of the Federal Reserve's board of directors were involved in making personnel decisions in the division of supervision and regulation at the Fed.

-  The Sanders Report on the GAO Audit on Major Conflicts of Interest at the Federal Reserve. 


Rogue Government Traders

Everything that is happening around the world right now reminds me of the  movie “Rogue Trader.”  In case you haven’t seen it, it is the 1999 film where Ewan McGregor plays the role of Nick Leeson, the Barings Bank trader whose trades gone bad brought down Barings Bank, the oldest merchant bank in London at the time.  The reason why this story is so compelling and why I recommend everyone go watch it is because it demonstrates what can happen when a small loss or mistake is ignored and then covered up in a futile attempt to get back to where you were.  In this case, Nick Leeson started losing money trading futures in Singapore and rather than cutting his losses he kept trading more and bigger.  Pretty quickly, the losses became so enormous he knew he would be forced to close them out if someone noticed and he might even be fired.  So what did he do?  He decided to transfer the losses to a hidden account.  The 88888 account.  He figured he would hide the losses there and then close the hidden account when he got back to even.  He never got back to even and Barings went bankrupt. 

Any of this sound familiar?  Yes of course it does.  Unfortunately for all of us, the story of Barings bank and Nick Leeson is merely happening on a global scale.  However, rather than one trader making bad bets what we are dealing with is a gigantic credit bubble ponzi scheme created by TBTF banks, or as Bill Black more appropriately refers to them, Systemically Dangerous Institutions (SDIs) that now needs to be covered up.  This ponzi first started unraveling back in 2008 and rather than deal with it the best we could, global “leaders” decided to bail them out with taxpayer money and guarantees.  What did we get for this act of kindness?  A dead economy, monstrous unemployment, 15% of Americans on food stamps and a frightening reality that shows Americans are having a much harder time than the Chinese putting food on the table.  See this article Meanwhile, what did the banksters get?  They consolidated even more power over their Washington D.C. puppets because now establishment politicians are “in” the doubled down Nick Leeson bet with Wall Street and of course they got record bonuses and no one was prosecuted.  

So here is the world as I see it at the moment.  You have a gigantic credit/derivatives ponzi scheme created by SDIs that cannot be settled or unwound without a lot of pain.  The banks know this but of course they don’t tell the serfs.  They did tell the governments this back in 2008, but with the caveat that if the politicians saved them they would save the economy and be considered heroes.  Given the financial ignorance, stupidity and massive egos floating around that cesspool called Washington D.C. they fell for it line hook line and sinker.  Well, nothing improved except for bank bonuses and now people are unsurprisingly out in the streets all over America.  Now what?

Well since the politicians are now “in the bet” with the banksters they are just doubling down and doubling down on past mistakes and making things worse and worse.  Except this time they won’t just blow up an old bank.  They will blow up the entire planet.  I mean did you see what Bank of America just did?  They purposely moved their derivatives in with the FDIC insured deposits subsidiary and away from the Merrill unit.  The FDIC is apparently not into this but the FED thinks it is a good idea.  They are purposely putting a nuclear bomb in bed with customer deposits so they have a gun to the head of everyone again.  Aren’t you glad we bailed them out?  Read this and this

No Solution Announced in Europe.  Why?

One of the most hilarious and disturbing things that has dominated market related news lately is the lack of any “solution” in Europe but rather commentary/rumors every other day about some master plan that is to be unveiled any moment.  Of course nothing is ever unveiled and then they say oh it will be “next week.”  It’s always next week.  Just like every bankrupt country on the planet is supposedly going to have miraculous budget surpluses in 2020.  They are lying folks.  No solution has been announced in Europe because there is no solution.  I think it is actually pretty simple.  The extent of the debt problem is so enormous when you include Italy (which you need to do as yields reach back up to 6% on the 10 year bond and people are getting violent in the streets) that any “solution” would have to be so huge and involve a lot of new money/credit creation in the Eurozone that it would pass the buck entirely to Germany and lead to extremely high inflation in the Eurozone.  This is why Germany rightly has not agreed to the bazooka approach that France and Tiny Timmy Geithner is trying to shove down their throats.  While things may not be great in Germany, I don’t think they want a situation where their people have a harder time eating than the Chinese.  That is what Americans have gotten as a reward for pulling out the bazooka in 2008 and bailing out the criminals at the government-ward banks. 

Here is the other problem with the whole thing.  Germany seems to be pushing for greater private sector write downs on Greek debt.  The number floating around is 50%.  While this is the responsible thing to do it isn’t really workable as a “solution.”  Why?  Because why would ANY other nation ever perform austerity and agree to pay their debt burden after that?  They just saw that all you have to do is cheat and riot and the EU will give in because they will to do anything to save their precious little Euro project.  So if Greece gets away with not honoring its debts no nation will ever honor them and then you will either see the biggest chain reaction of debt default in human history or the biggest money printing episode since Zimbabwe.  This is completely binary and there are no good outcomes.  That is why nothing has been announced.  I still think the chance of Germany pulling itself out has a much higher probability than people realize.  To see some of the friction between Germany and France read this quick piece from yesterday

Life in a Looted United States of America

Let this message serve as a warning to Germany.  If you follow the path to mutually assured destruction with the rest of Europe you will end up with what we have here in America.  In a post looted America, the landscape is dominated by criminal oligarchs running around spouting lies via the media to the ignorant sheep.  You see states like Louisiana apparently banning cash for certain transactions.  You see Washington D.C., home of nothing productive or creative but rather a nest of immoral parasites take over as the highest household income from San Jose, home of companies like Apple and Cisco.  You have the only good news from our Nobel Peace Prize winner President this year being the murder of two people.  Osama Bin Laden (which I believe was a totally fake story) and now today Gadhafi.  Wow, America really is number 1.

This is how a nation descends from one of productivity and innovation to ruthless, corrupt feudalism in a very short period of time.  My message for Americans follows up from my email of two weeks ago.  The reason the liberal mainstream corporate media demonized the Tea Party is because it threatens the status quo.  The reason the conservative corporate mainstream media demonizes Occupy Wall Street is because it threatens the status quo.  These are textbook divide and conquer strategies being used on the American people.  Do not fall for it.  Yesterday I read a really interesting gallup poll that stated: “Not surprisingly, Americans who consider themselves supporters of the Occupy Wall Street movement (26% of all Americans) are more likely to blame Wall Street than the federal government for the nation's economic problems. Supporters of the Tea Party movement (22% of Americans) are overwhelmingly likely to blame the government.”  What is most compelling to me is that 26%+22% = 48% so basically almost a majority.  All we need to do is teach people that Washington D.C. and Wall Street are now the same corrupt entity.  They are one gigantic rogue trader sucking the lifeblood out of America.  If we can unite these forces, which I can say with certainty agree on the important issues, we can put an end to the status quo and free ourselves of this bondage. 

Peace and wisdom,


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Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:25 | 1794402 yabyum
yabyum's picture

Divide and conquer, the way of the 1%.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:28 | 1794411 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

But there is a big issue dividing tea party and OWS but I am open to ideas how to solve it.

OWS believes the solution involves even bigger government and more spending. I cant support that.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:39 | 1794430 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Deception by leaders, the way of the 99%.

"Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company...Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." ~ George Washington

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:59 | 1794536 Deadpool
Deadpool's picture

all the really cool kids are in the 1%

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:11 | 1794592 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Tea Party + Occupy Wall Street = revolution


Democrats + Republicans = same old shit


some cool kids in 1% but 0.1%, you got the most spoiled entitled arrogant basturds who have only inheritance holding them up.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:16 | 1794601 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

You better believe it – this IS the beginning of the progressive socialist revolution, and it is UNSTOPPABLE because the truth is on our side. The trendiest brightest young people out there know what the deal is. This economic crisis demonstrates a complete FAILURE of capitalism and freedom. Free market prices are a dated idea, and the younger generation is breaking new ground by supporting tighter regulations, higher taxes and more departments with smart, trustworthy regulators. Many of the government regulators saw this crisis coming well in advance but were unable to act because of ideological free marketers refusing to vote for more government controls over the economy. It is a tragedy that the smartest economic minds in this country are ready to tackle our problems by regulating this economy, but are unable to do so because of the legal blockades that are placed in their way by ignorant capitalists.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:17 | 1794617 akak
akak's picture

Your shtick was cute at first, but is getting a bit stale now.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:32 | 1794855 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Off Topic but astounding (and credible evidence, viewed in the correct context, that TPTB really do want and need PEPRETUAL debt slaves - both individuals and nations):

In 2000, economists were projecting that the U.S. would pay off its national debt.

At least, that's what we know now, thanks to a secret report called "Life After Debt" obtained by NPR's Planet Money through the Freedom of Information Act.


The Clinton Administration Was Terrified About What Would Happen If It Paid Off The Entire National Debt


Debt slaves; it's the same as it ever was. Those now in control, just like in times past, find it the most lucrative business of all to keep nations and people in perpetual debt. Allowing nations and people to free themselves of debt would ruin this most lucrative of businesses.

Don't let the tone of the article linked above fool you; the only reason we didn't and won't pay off our national debt is because our political "leaders" are bought and paid for whores, who carry water for their masters.

The House of Red Shield lives, bitchez.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:45 | 1794910 macholatte
macholatte's picture

Although brilliant and charasmatic, Clinton was/is a very bad dude.  The Center for American Progress was the offspring of Hilary & Soros.  Much of the foundation for the destruction of America was laid during the Clinton years. Most noteably the repeal of Glass-Steagal. With the perspective of hindsight, it is now possible to see that there was little difference between Bush 1 and Clinton. Both were globalists & Progressives. Bush 2 was a real disaster because of the complete failure to regulate. Obama has continued that tradition to an extreme with the complete impotentcy of Eric Holder and a banker as his Chief of Staff. The fix is in, boys and girls.


I started rooting - you know, sticking up joints - with some older guys. By now I had gotten a taste of what the racket world really was - the glamour, the way they dressed, the way they always had a pocketful of money.
Mickey Cohen

This American system of ours, call it Americanism, call it capitalism, call it what you will, gives each and every one of us a great opportunity if we only seize it with both hands and make the most of it.
Al Capone

I loved the Godfather. I thought that was the best interpretation of our life that I've ever seen. 
Sammy Gravano

We're not children here. The law is-how should I put it? A convenience. Or a convenience for some people, and an inconvenience for other people.
Paul Castellano

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:29 | 1795757 Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

Progressive? How in the world are those guys progressive unless you mean progressively making things worse? I thought Progressive meant trying to you know, give more people civil rights and that sort of thing. Sometimes I'm kind thrown by the use of terms around here that have always meant one thing, but become their polar opposite on ZH.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:51 | 1796124 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

another idea, mistaken imo, that is popular here (see original post) and elsewhere, is that the outcome of the current crisis is binary: constant bailout or lehman style collapse.  this is not true.  

there is also orderly restructuring where the shareholders, bondholders and management take the haircut/clawback and depositors and counterparties are paid.  derivatives can be unwound with netting out and maybe some aren't paid in full (better this than the lehman case of weakest link attacked first so the gross amount becomes the killer).  i'm no econ phd but this guy is, and a good one:

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:11 | 1795829 Lord Blankcheck
Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:17 | 1794618 Dumpster Fire
Dumpster Fire's picture

smart, trustworthy regulators my boy and all but you're letting go of the rope here a bit.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:18 | 1794622 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture


When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; when you see that men get rich more easily by graft than by work, and your laws no longer protect you against them, but protect them against you... you may know that your society is doomed. ~ Atlas Shrugged

¿Tienes plata gringo?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:21 | 1795033 greenfire
greenfire's picture

Ideology-bound folks who have cemented that one, and only one, neural pathway in their brain, will be of NO USE.  They tend to often be haters, intolerant of other views and generally not adaptable. The free market utopia of the libertarian is just as impossible, as that of the communitarian.  We will need to take the more cogent TPers and #OWSers and weave a majority that sweeps the elites from power.  Look at the way they strain to separate us now.  

From the right: "Dirty, smelly hippie communist socialist, etc."

From the left: "Racist, ignorant hillbilly, gun-toter"

Meanwhile, deeply esconed in the center are the elites, with all who are most vested in the current paradigmn, protected by the sheeple frozen with fear, that just want to get back to the World Series.  The center cannot hold.  It is rotten deep within, and we hear the creaking and groaning.....What will be the spark that ignites a fire?

Don't get me wrong.  I most enjoy those who have read and studied enough to have an ideology, but those seeking purity will never find it.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:06 | 1795256 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

Totally right man. What the purists don't get is that the world is not black and white. This means that ALL universal principles are invalid, everywhere all the time. You can NEVER come up with a universal principle, because the world comes in shades of grey. This is what purist libertarians fail to understand, and is the reason why it is morally valid and necessary for experts to manage the economy.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:32 | 1795342 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Hehe, I saw what you did there. 

'If I always lie it would be impossible for me to tell you that I am a liar'

OTOH, economics is a pretty 'grey' science IMO, if it can be considered one at all.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:55 | 1795795 Goolie
Goolie's picture

<<This is what purist libertarians fail to understand, and is the reason why it is morally valid and necessary for experts to manage the economy.>>

Experts?  What experts?  There is no such thing.  The free market is the expert.  It's the collective wisdom of all participants.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 14:41 | 1797989 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

can you say, 'facetious'? There ya go...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:27 | 1794658 Chump
Chump's picture

Junked for not finding a new and creative way to include "nerdy libertarians" this time.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:47 | 1794725 Gadfly
Gadfly's picture


We (the bankers) must proceed with caution and guard every move made, for the lower order of people are already showing signs of restless commotion. Prudence will therefore show a policy of apparently yielding to the popular will until our plans are so far consummated that we can declare our designs without fear of any organized resistance.

Organizations in the United States should be carefully watched by our trusted men, and we must take immediate steps to control these organizations in our interest or disrupt them.

At the coming Omaha convention to be held July 4, 1892, our men must attend and direct its movement or else there will be set on foot such antagonism to our designs as may require force to overcome.

This at the present time would be premature. We are not yet ready for such a crisis. Capital must protect itself in every possible manner through combination (conspiracy) and legislation.

The courts must be called to our aid, debts must be collected, bonds and mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible.

When, through the process of law, the common people have lost their homes,
they will be more tractable and easily governed through the influence of the strong arm
of the government applied to a central power of imperial wealth under the control of the leading financiers.

People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. History repeats itself in regular cycles. This truth is well known among our principal men who are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world. While they are doing this, the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism.

The question of tariff reform must be urged through the organization known as the Democratic Party, and the question of protection with the reciprocity must be forced to view through the Republican Party.

By thus dividing voters, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us, except as teachers to the common herd. Thus, by discrete actions, we can secure all that has been so generously planned and successfully accomplished.

 From The Politics of Common Sense

The above was taken from the "Banker's Manifesto", for the private circulation among leading bankers only, taken from the "Civil Servants' Year Book, "The Organizer" of January, 1934. The Banker's Manifesto ties in with U.S. Senate Document No. 43, 73rd Congress, 1st Session (1934)

Some things never change.  Anyone on this website who still thinks this is a Democrat versus Republican issue, or conservative versus liberal, or government versus private enterprise, still doesn't get it.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:57 | 1794768 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Some things never change.  Anyone on this website who still thinks this is a Democrat versus Republican issue, or conservative versus liberal, or government versus private enterprise, still doesn't get it.

1000% TRUE!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:49 | 1794918 11b40
11b40's picture

This is the drum I have been pounding on this site since I arrived. 

The left/right, conservative/liberal, Dem/Repub paradigms are employed by our masters to keep us distracted and at war with one another.  This war was put on steroids when the "conservative" (whatever that is suposed to mean)/Christain right married the traditional Republican Party and Social Issues were thrust to the forefront of every political debate.  Even now, with the entire economy about to fall down on top of us and with our military involved in multiple wars, what is Congress doing?  Well, how about this...there have been 7 bills drafted to restrict women's reproductive rights this year alone.  That's almost one per month.  You can probabaly guess that they are coming from the charlatans who captured the Tea Party.

Now, please don't start ranting about the evils of homo's or abotionists.  It's not the point.  In fact, if you do so, it only re-enforces the point, which is, these people we have representing holding office in Washington are screwing America royally.  Truly, fiddling as Rome burns.  I support both OWS & the Tea Party in principle.....and it's got nothing to do with Socialism, Communism, or anything except the message from the money masters, which, if we need a label, let's call "up 'ur assism", 'cause that is where they are sticking it to the rest of us.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:58 | 1794775 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Million Dollar Bonus is shilling for either Fascism or Communism. We had ample of both the last 100 years. I am going to shill for actually trying capitalism. Where's the next control freak shill? Need more better chess players you people are boring me.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:16 | 1795018 11b40
11b40's picture

MDB is trolling for mental stimulus.  His posts are brilliantly designed to poke the most ingrained beliefs we have, and to piss us off.  He has few equals here.

Now if you are bored, why don't you go outside and play in the street?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:38 | 1795104 greenfire
greenfire's picture

No different that the free market purity trolls, too blinded to the the opportunity, who come out in 3...2...1.....

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:38 | 1795105 greenfire
greenfire's picture

No different that the free market purity trolls, too blinded to the the opportunity, who come out in 3...2...1.....

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:08 | 1796011 gorillaonyourback
gorillaonyourback's picture

why you little suck dick minion,  just because some boy has been takin nietzsche a little to seriously  AND is probably a test dummy for the video game industry , test piloting the new supraman video game,  does not mean he has ANYTHING OF VALUE TO SAY.  In fact ,if you enjoy his/her percieved pedantic mumblings so much, please by all means get his number and go sucks his limp little dick.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 07:52 | 1796315 11b40
11b40's picture

Guess it's obvious that MDB pulled your chain pretty good.  Now go take your meds like a good little boy.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:27 | 1795324 prains
prains's picture

You better believe it – this IS the beginning of the progressive socialist revolution, and it is UNSTOPPABLE

MllionsofNumbNuts YOUr system went socialist the minute Gdubya bailed out his buds with YOUr cash and YOUr kids cash (although on many levels i hope you can't/won't/be uable to procreate). Schtick or not you don't strike me as someone who swings much of a dick. Chinese size i suspect.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:16 | 1794834 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Well past time for OWS to GO HOME.

They are being played for suckers. Like in every revolution past...

OWS Watch and Learn and GO HOME.....

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:45 | 1795140 ClassicalLib17
ClassicalLib17's picture


What,  now you favor the TeaParty?  GFY

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:17 | 1794619 Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

OWS has a decidedly collectivist bent.  That they refuse to articlate their demands indicates that thier demands would be abhorrent to the 60-70%.  They certainly don't "represent" the 99%.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:34 | 1794433 FinalCollapse
FinalCollapse's picture

Yes and No. The OWS is not a bunch of commies or nazis, as FOX would like you to believe. It is a legitimate anger, that has multiple outlets. Are you for the Greenspan's no regulation nonsense, or are you for enforcing stricter regulations, and putting the Wall Street criminals behind bars?


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:34 | 1794439 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

To your point. I saw one of the "Commies" here at the Occupy Pittsburgh site with a "Ron Paul 2012" sign this morning.

Leftist socialist scum!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:50 | 1794501 FL_Conservative
FL_Conservative's picture

And you'd also see others having sex under a tree and yet another dropping a large one on the hood of a police car.  Sorry, these folks are the furthest thing from the tea party and are being legitimized by Obama, the liberal Dems and the thug union leaders who look at the Sheeple as supporters for the class warfare that Obama wants to wage.  The leftist-statist cast sees an entirely different America that those that subscribe to the Ron Paul political ideology.  If they were a bunch of Ron Paul supporters, the crowds would behave similar to the tea party know the ones that Obama and all the liberal elite attacked?  Whatever geniune intent may have been mixed in to the OWS throngs has been thoroughly co-opted by the Marxists that have piled into the situation.  If you believe otherwise, you're just flat out wrong.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:01 | 1794543 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture


Anyone that doesn't support Ron Paul 2012 is either a fascist, socialist, anarchist, et al...

Dr. Paul isn't perfect, but he's the strongest AMERICAN political leader running for POTUS!

Beware those that speak ill of him...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:06 | 1794570 FinalCollapse
FinalCollapse's picture

Accidentaly, Ron Paul was the only GOP candidate to defend OWS. When OWS demands prosecution of WS criminals, it is also Libertarian/Ron Paul agenda. Bear it in mind. Btw - there is no need to agree 100% on everything.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:10 | 1794810 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

I haven't been to an OWS march, but I can guarantee that the people who are reporting on the marchers are the same people who have been lying to you your whole life.  The MSM doesn't like them.  CNBS doesn't like them.  The Republicans don't like them, and the Dems don't like them.  And yet, the movement grows.

That should be a clue to everyone that something special is going on.  Whether that power is harnessed by the forces of good or evil is something we cannot predict.  Right now, it's up for grabs.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:47 | 1794899 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

I'm not part of the (D) & (R) Free Crap Empire™ - I'm a decendent of the Sons of Liberty - And I don't want to see the OWS DECEPTION  hoodwink the USofA about what the majority of OWS are pursuing:


Good luck with your attempt at getting others to join your circle jerk...

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:17 | 1796019 stirners_ghost
stirners_ghost's picture

You are a boring nationalist turd who fails to see the obvious contradiction at the foundation of his secular religion. Rule of Law and Individual Liberty are not in the least bit compatible--they are polar opposites. To be ruled by law you must--submit to it; you must sacrifice your own values to those of the hive. Tell me, where does individual liberty enter this picture? Liberty to do that which is allowed? That which your master has granted you the "right"? Congratulations, you have achieved the freedom to act obediently, just like every other slave and prisoner who has ever existed. Most of them, though, were not so ignorant about the realities of their situation.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:57 | 1796128 akak
akak's picture

An interesting argument, not often made.


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:09 | 1794580 The-Dirty-Scurd
The-Dirty-Scurd's picture

I think Ron Paul is good stuff for the most part. There shold have been and should be a bunch of his type in govt. I believe it is way to far gone and way to little, to late. There will be no man or woman stop or fix what is happening. When I vote I will vote for Ron Paul(because I take some responsibility in USA and voting is part of our duty to country) but to look at things objectively Ron Paul is not enough. It's just another distraction from the ultimate truth of all this and another false hope.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:10 | 1794584 Deadpool
Deadpool's picture

To know what is wrong with the Federal Reserve, one must first understand the nature of money. Money is like any other good in our economy that emerges from the market to satisfy the needs and wants of consumers. Its particular usefulness is that it helps facilitate indirect exchange, making it easier for us to buy and sell goods because there is a common way of measuring their value. Money is not a government phenomenon, and it need not and should not be managed by government. When central banks like the Fed manage money they are engaging in price fixing, which leads not to prosperity but to disaster.

The Federal Reserve has caused every single boom and bust that has occurred in this country since the bank's creation in 1913. It pumps new money into the financial system to lower interest rates and spur the economy. Adding new money increases the supply of money, making the price of money over time—the interest rate—lower than the market would make it. These lower interest rates affect the allocation of resources, causing capital to be malinvested throughout the economy. So certain projects and ventures that appear profitable when funded at artificially low interest rates are not in fact the best use of those resources.

Eventually, the economic boom created by the Fed's actions is found to be unsustainable, and the bust ensues as this malinvested capital manifests itself in a surplus of capital goods, inventory overhangs, etc. Until these misdirected resources are put to a more productive use—the uses the free market actually desires—the economy stagnates.

Enlarge Image



Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke

The great contribution of the Austrian school of economics to economic theory was in its description of this business cycle: the process of booms and busts, and their origins in monetary intervention by the government in cooperation with the banking system. Yet policy makers at the Federal Reserve still fail to understand the causes of our most recent financial crisis. So they find themselves unable to come up with an adequate solution.

In many respects the governors of the Federal Reserve System and the members of the Federal Open Market Committee are like all other high-ranking powerful officials. Because they make decisions that profoundly affect the workings of the economy and because they have hundreds of bright economists working for them doing research and collecting data, they buy into the pretense of knowledge—the illusion that because they have all these resources at their fingertips they therefore have the ability to guide the economy as they see fit.

Nothing could be further from the truth. No attitude could be more destructive. What the Austrian economists Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich von Hayek victoriously asserted in the socialist calculation debate of the 1920s and 1930s—the notion that the marketplace, where people freely decide what they need and want to pay for, is the only effective way to allocate resources—may be obvious to many ordinary Americans. But it has not influenced government leaders today, who do not seem to see the importance of prices to the functioning of a market economy.

The manner of thinking of the Federal Reserve now is no different than that of the former Soviet Union, which employed hundreds of thousands of people to perform research and provide calculations in an attempt to mimic the price system of the West's (relatively) free markets. Despite the obvious lesson to be drawn from the Soviet collapse, the U.S. still has not fully absorbed it.

The Fed fails to grasp that an interest rate is a price—the price of time—and that attempting to manipulate that price is as destructive as any other government price control. It fails to see that the price of housing was artificially inflated through the Fed's monetary pumping during the early 2000s, and that the only way to restore soundness to the housing sector is to allow prices to return to sustainable market levels. Instead, the Fed's actions have had one aim—to keep prices elevated at bubble levels—thus ensuring that bad debt remains on the books and failing firms remain in business, albatrosses around the market's neck.

The Fed's quantitative easing programs increased the national debt by trillions of dollars. The debt is now so large that if the central bank begins to move away from its zero interest-rate policy, the rise in interest rates will result in the U.S. government having to pay hundreds of billions of dollars in additional interest on the national debt each year. Thus there is significant political pressure being placed on the Fed to keep interest rates low. The Fed has painted itself so far into a corner now that even if it wanted to raise interest rates, as a practical matter it might not be able to do so. But it will do something, we know, because the pressure to "just do something" often outweighs all other considerations.

What exactly the Fed will do is anyone's guess, and it is no surprise that markets continue to founder as anticipation mounts. If the Fed would stop intervening and distorting the market, and would allow the functioning of a truly free market that deals with profit and loss, our economy could recover. The continued existence of an organization that can create trillions of dollars out of thin air to purchase financial assets and prop up a fundamentally insolvent banking system is a black mark on an economy that professes to be free.

Mr. Paul, a congressman from Texas, is seeking the Republican presidential nomination.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:19 | 1794626 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

be careful,... very careful when you deliberate your thoughts as heartfelt idealism as that of empirical truism -

washington's closest confidant, advisor, and personal friend was hamilton,... whose sole 'grandeur' was that of implementing a central bank -

jefferson, madison were not in alliance   




Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:20 | 1794628 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

"Anyone that doesnt support Ron Paul is a socialist, fascist, blah blah blah..."

Shut the fuck up and quit letting the ignorant bullshit flow out of your mouth. You sound like a fucking tool.


Signed, a Ron Paul supporter.


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:40 | 1795118 greenfire
greenfire's picture

+100,000 gold bars

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:05 | 1794545 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

Class warfare.

You mean the kind that allowed the average CEO - such as the former one at the bank at which I work, who took home a paltry $18 million last year - to make roughly 440 times the average American's salary?

And the kind that allowed him to get a $30 million golden parachute upon his ouster - er, resignation (LOL) - which represents $20,000 for each of the 1,500 announced layoffs here at this bank?

You mean THAT class warfare?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:05 | 1794564 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yes, crash the fucking system already so that compensation can finally return to people who are actually worth a shit.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:12 | 1794595 bnbdnb
bnbdnb's picture

Paying every working person in the world $8/hr would be a cost of $54 trillion/yr

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:31 | 1794656 FinalCollapse
FinalCollapse's picture

Almost twice as much, but you math is wrong. Not everyone is working. Let's assume on 4 Bil people work, the rest are elders or young kids, and they work 8 hours per day. I understand that some kids work too, and some people work much longer hours, but this could be a starting point.

4 Bil * 8 hrs * 365 * $8 = $93T/yr

Luckily many people work for themselves. The big corporations of this world destroy the small business either directly or through goverment manipulation. Something needs to be done to create a smart environment for small business. Right now Democcrats/ Republicans/Tea Party just talk, and spin like crazy, but they do absolutely nothing to fix this problem. Don't listen what they talk, observe what they do. 

I support OWS, and trust me, I would be the last person in this World to be accused of any commie or nazi symphaties. I come from a family with long tradition of fighting both.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:33 | 1794672 bnbdnb
bnbdnb's picture

I was only assuming about a 50% work rate. And only 40 hrs a week, not 365 days a year, but basically yeah. We are all screwed.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:59 | 1794779 Audit the beaver
Audit the beaver's picture

Work 365 days a year? Pfffffff In the "developed" world, a person working more than 250 days a year is pushing it.  You wanna see society break down, tell people they have to work every day, every year they work...revolution would happen instantly.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:22 | 1794852 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

bnb, if everyone lived a little simpler life and not under the yoke of advertising driven consumerism, we don't need 8 bucks an hour. HEck, we don't even need 4 bucks an hour. 

It's just a totally broken paradigm that is dis-integrating, barely worth the energy to type about it.


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:17 | 1794615 eureka
eureka's picture

Tea Partiers just don't want to pay taxes - except for war spending, of course.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:58 | 1794533 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I think there is common ground.
We can band together and end the political duopoly, hit the reset button, then once our enemies are finished we can peacefully fight among ourselves.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:12 | 1794593 saiybat
saiybat's picture


There's probably about the same amount of libertarians there as there are socialist. The poll shows 6% socialist and 6% libertarian. It seems there's a significant number of people still stuck in this left-right charade and they are the ones that'll be given the media coverage. 33% do not identify with any political party which is great but unfortunately 32% identify as a Democrat. You can expect networks like Fox to paint all the protestors as Marxists and networks like MSNBC to paint them as frustrated democrats. They absolutely do not want people to be unified in stamping out fascism else the networks stop receiving tax money. OWS will be co opted and used just like the Tea Party.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:15 | 1794612 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

You think that "Americans" are the ones that founded, funded and guide this new movement aka OWS?!?

OWS-NY is a couple of blocks from where I work (no, not in financial mafia) and I was for a short time a member of it...when I thought there might be hope to stopthe tyrants with the RULE OF LAW...

I can't speak about the other locations across the nation (and I have no interest/affiliation with Europe et al.), but what I see happening at OWS-NY is nightmarish!

If you care about the AMERICAN experiment, you should be aware that there are -0- AMERICANS @ OWS-NY/NJ...

Moreover, the "leaders" of the kamp are dyed-in-the-wool SOCIALIST agitators, every one is Marxist brain-washed and a Hegelian dialectic practitioner - EVERY ONE OF THEM!

Have you read the book Animal Farm?  If not I suggest you do it asap if you want to understand where this is headed...

The people that started this have NO idea the monster THEY'VE created, it is truly time that the adults pay attention before the children burn the house down!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:23 | 1794642 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

Nice bullshit copy and paste job you fucking tool. Go back to shilling for something else somewhere else.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:31 | 1794666 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

what's with the copy paste man?  You got a copyright pending on that shit, it was so good?  You're looking like a fucking script bot all of a sudden.

Heglian, 'an shit like that.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:34 | 1794683 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Plenty of original content I've added in this thread to tittilate your senses...

Sometimes the truth bears repeating, certainly when you have entities that would like to push it off the page.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." ~ John Adams

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:58 | 1794772 saiybat
saiybat's picture

Facts are well and all if you actually cited any or are you just throwing that quote in there?


"It's not easy being green." ~ Kermit the Frog

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:20 | 1794846 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Here's a factoid for you, just so you know you're not the only one out there...

P.S.  I think I actually saw this guy in Washington Sq Park on Saturday!  lol

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:46 | 1794911 saiybat
Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:45 | 1795148 greenfire
greenfire's picture

<yawns, amused by the provocateur>

What is the .gov paying for those astroturfing contracts, these days? 

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:57 | 1794767 Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

Take a look at Tyler's Greek riot post from earlier today. You will see people fighting each other. They are not fighting together against those who got them into the bankrupt place in which they find themselves. It's just a lot of blood & head banging for no good reason. That's what happens when groups cannot give up their ideological differences long enough to join together and defeat the real enemy. 

Argue your way to the poor house, while the 1% take whatever you have left, like a bunch of fools, or create a large enough and inclusive enough group to do something about it. 

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:28 | 1795058 11b40
11b40's picture

There seems to be an amazing support group for the staus quo here today.  In the past, some of them have even chided America to get off our collective asses and do something about all this corruption and theft.  Now that the protest is coming alive, and people are actually raising their voices and their fists, all many of these former rabble rousers want to do is criticize the movement and try to pick it apart.

It's way too early to know where this is going, but there is a steady drumbeat to categorize and demonize the OWS crowd.  Many of the posters are little better than the MSM....worse, actually, 'cause most here should know better.  I have to wonder how many actually read the article, since the essence of what was written is a message of unity and fighting back.


Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:54 | 1796062 Rynak
Rynak's picture

My way or the shit way.....'s a little thought experiment.... it may be complete bullshit or not.... but hey, it's a possibility, that rarely is considered:

For whatever reason, humans of current cultures have an obsession with believing in "the one right answer". To some, that is one specific way to do something (absolutism) - to others, it's "everything is right.... someway" (egalitism)....... notice that none of them consider the circumstances at hand, or dig deeper..... get your fav maxime from your next-door supermarket, and everything is fixed.

Why am i bringing this up? Well, let's see.... can anyone think back to any society in recent history, which's system was satisfying to most people, and sustainable?

Next question: How different are the systems that have been employed? You know, they had all kinds of tags put on them, from all kinds of different ideologies.... so, umm, besides of aesthetics similiar to political parties, how did they differ?

Assuming they didn't differ much, we have established something perhaps not so obvious: People someway assume, that there have been all kinds of different systems attempted - So, just choose a camp, and then say "oh, if we only do it right this time, it will work - it was just done wrong".

Oh, sure, that may work out.... however, since there basically has only been ONE system implemented in the past, how can you have any idea, how many possible working systems there may be, each with their own blend?

Another thing to consider: As you may know, you exist, and other people exist. As you may also know where there is a group, there must be individuals. And where there are individuals, there also is a group (even if they may not associate with each other - what i mean here, has only partially to do with choice of association.... but more with: Where you have a pile of stuff, you also have bits of stuff).

That may sound like master of the obvious.... but is it? If you look at the ideologies with which people associate themselves, aren't they besically all concerned with rejecting one pole of a dichotomy, while affirming the other? Aren't their only fundamental differences, rooted in nothing more than a mix of egoism/altruism, individualism/collectivism, reductionism/holism?

Kay, having established this as well, is that efficient?

- Does it make a system function better, if the parts are more concerned with their influence on others, than others influence on them?

- Does it make a system function better, if people are more concerned with others influence on them, than their influence on others?

- Does it make a system function better, if one focusses on the detail, and ignores large-scale patterns and dynamics?

- Does it make a system function better, if one focusses on large-scale patterns, while ignoring the details of whom those patterns consist?


Or is the only thing resulting from the above, defects, conflicts, disfunction, inefficiency and imbalances?

And notice - this doesn't even have anything specifically to do with sociology, economy or politics. It is universal.


Divide and conquer.... it starts in your own indoctrinated mind.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:32 | 1794434 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

"OWS believes the solution involves even bigger government and more spending."

I suppose you can support that claim. I mean, surely you've been to their web sites and to their camp sites.

And you've spoken to them in person and read their demands and signs.

Thanks for playing.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:37 | 1794450 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Three words on uncountable numbers of signs spout confirmation of their demand. "Eat The Rich".

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:45 | 1794484 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Actually i have been up there serving food. I hang out with some leftist chics occasionally cuz they are a blast. Yes most lean left.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:02 | 1794788 Audit the beaver
Audit the beaver's picture

I bet they also have morally casual attitudes and low self-esteem.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:34 | 1794442 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

They are Marxist and Communists. If their wishes came true they would be the first pushed into the mass graves after being convicted of being Useless Eaters.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:44 | 1794481 calltoaccount
calltoaccount's picture


  from: Conservative Karl Denninger on the risks facing America today-- defends OWS Movement
OWS: The Risks Facing America Today


I was skeptical that the protests were serious.

I suspected they were yet another "demonstration" - the sort where people come, they wave signs, they complain, maybe even they riot a bit, and then they leave.

In 2008, in fact, on August 26th of that year, I said the following:

In short, once again, fraud.  Legal, but fraud nonetheless.  You, America, seem to think this is just great as your grocery and gas budgets get squeezed. 

You must think its great for your budget and lifestyle to get reamed, since I've yet to see a groundswell of people in Washington DC protesting or our city streets swarming with people who refuse to leave and shut down commerce.

And I amplified the point with:

Let me know when y'all get mad enough to do something about all this nonsense..... (funny how during the Democratic Convention last night the buzz was all about the second round of sore loserman with Hillary delegates rather than the outright theft and fraud from the people that the party supposedly claims to be most-closely aligned with!)

I guess that time has arrived.

Even CNBC has been effectively forced to recognize that this is not just a bunch of Soros-funded hippies.  Oh sure, they're there; so is the SEIU, so are the other "usual suspects."  And why not - they're always "there" when there's a good flag to be waved and a movement to try to co-opt, exactly as was the Tea Party, exactly as was "9/12", exactly as were the Tax Day protests (two of which I have spoken at locally.)

But then they went home.  The streets were empty, the signs and people gone.

This time it's different.

This time support is coming from surprising places.  Like former corporate activist (and buyer of companies!) Asher Edelman.

Here's the problem for the "powers that be" who have been trying to ignore this movement: They erroneously believed, as did many others (myself included), that this would be like the Tea Party (which was de-fanged and turned into a fraudulent shell of what it began as) or the other "movements" such as the "protests" at G-20 meetings.  That is, people would show up, they'd wave signs, a few would commit random acts of violence and guarantee severe negative billing on the local TV and then they'd all go home and wash the tear gas out of their eyes.

But something different happened this time.

The people came.  They didn't throw molotov cocktails, sticks and bombs.  They did wave signs, but then they didn't go home.  They did what I said would have to be done - in 2008 - in order to make a difference: THEY STAYED.

There's been plenty of detractors spewing about the "Progressive Stack"; I have not witnessed it, and if it's true that actual discrimination is being practiced, then we have a problem, as the fact remains that representative government demands that justice be color and gender-blind.  If it's not, and the allegation is being made that it is not, then gentlemen, we have a problem - a serious problem.

But I won't throw bombs on this issue until I know.  And toward that end, this weekend I will be attending one of the local protests.  With a bullhorn.  With others.  With people in the political sphere.  I am going both to talk to those who want to listen (if there are such people) and to listen and observe myself, and will take pictures while there.

Yes, at the end of that day I will go home.  But some others may not.  In fact, many others may not.

Here's the thing: Even today, CNBC is still talking about "recapitalizing the banks."  What's "recapitalize" mean?  It means steal from you.  See, the reason you need to "recapitalize" these firms is that they pissed away their own capital by doing dangerous, risky, even fraudulent things.

The corporate media and politicians are still claiming that "we made a profit from TARP" and that "everything was repaid." 

This is a bald lie.  AIG didn't repay their money.  Neither did GM.  Money was shuffled around in a complex shell game to appear that all was repaid but in fact what happened was that you, the taxpayer, were looted.

You were looted through higher prices at the gas pump, higher prices at the grocery store, lower wages and at the same time zero interest rates so those of you who were prudent got fucked THREE TIMES instead of twice!

Representative government?  Where?  By anywhere from 100:1 to 300:1 the people demanded that TARP NOT pass.  That the banks that did foolishand in some cases criminal things be forced to eat the consequences. 

Again, as I've said for four years: We need a banking system because we do indeed need a way to clear payments so you can pay a bill or buy gasoline and food - so commerce can flow.  We do not need these banks that committed these acts.

But rather than do the right thing, our politicians were bought and paid for on both sides of the aisle.  It's particularly telling - and galling - that when allegedly being "grilled" by Hank Paulson in 2008 the banksters left the meeting smiling and yucking it up.

First they fucked you, then the government paid them to fuck you again.

Now, finally, it appears that the people have awoken.  A day of ineffectual sign-waving isn't enough any more.  Oh sure, that's part of it, but the part the media is ignoring - for now - is what's happening after the "able to be ignored political rally" is over.

The people are organizing a Congress - a real one - in the public square.

They're passing around ideas.

They're debating.

They're arguing.

And then they're VOTING.

It's self-organized.  It's real.  And while the crooners in the mainstream media are trying to ignore what's actually happening, they're not stopping it - and in fact, they probably can't stop it at this point.

Washington  - and Wall Street - now has an issue.  One that may not be able to dispelled or dispersed any longer.  One that may have now taken root and grown beyond the ability of the various factions in our government to either ignore it or stomp it out. 

The people have, for four years, demanded that the foundational principle of representative government be followed: One citizen, one vote.

They didn't get that.

There are many confused people at "Occupy Wall Street."  They know they were robbed, financially raped and serially abused by banksters and politicians, but they're not exactly sure how it happened.  I've written over 4,000 columns and a book - due out in a couple of weeks in hardback form - that details all of it, and Leverage details a path forward that I believe will address the problems on a permanent basis. 

But that few of the OWS folks understand how it all happened doesn't mean they don't understand what happened.  After all, it's not difficult to figure out that your job got offshored to China and you're standing in the street after you are foreclosed upon.  You might not understand exactly why it is that your home went down in value by half or more, but you sure understand that you're broke.  You may not understand that you've been promised things like Medicare from politicians like Jeff Miller and Steve Southerland, along with Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell and of course Harry Reid that there is no mathematical way for you to actually receive ten or twenty years hence, but you do understand that you're 50, unemployed, that nobody will hire you and while they won't say it (because it's illegal to "discriminate" on this basis) you have a stinking suspicion it's because the embedded cost of your medical insurance is $2,000 a month and the company you applied to can't afford it.  You may not understand exactly how you, the 20-something college graduate got ripped off to the tune of $100,000 by your "alma mater" for a worthless degree (proof of which is that you're unemployed) but you sure as hell do know that the debt collectors are harassing you on a daily basis!

And let's not kid ourselves - there were plenty of felonies committed here and both political parties are responsible for them, either as principals or accessories.  100,000 perjured affidavits in foreclosure cases?  That's all ok?  Appraisal fraud that was rampant for nearly a decade - blacklisting appraisers that were honest and refused to play along so the bubble could be further inflated?  That's ok too?  How about making loans that the lender knows can't be paid (a business decision) but then marketing them as good loans to others when selling them on (fraudulent misrepresentation) - is that ok?  How about intentionally arming Mexican drug gangs who then shoot both Mexican and American citizens with the apparent full knowledge of the US Attorney General? Is that ok?  How about letting a major bank have a pass on criminal prosecution for money laundering for those very same drug cartels?  For a more "home grown" example how about the Jefferson County Alabama residents that have seen their sewer bills go up by something like a factor of five over the last few years due to a corrupt project that was rife with graft and tricky financial deals - and while some of the politicians and others went to jail in Alabama, not one bankster who works for the major financial institutions that were involved in the scheme was even indicted, say much less imprisoned. Or, if you prefer, half a billion taxpayer dollars "invested" in a company that, it appears, the government knew was going to fail. There are dozens, even hundreds of other examples of rank corruption within our political system.

Since our bought and paid-for politicians won't lock up the fraudsters and do what has to be done to dismantle the looting of the American citizen they're beingliterally replaced wholesale.

Yes, right now this is "local government" with a small "l" and a small "g".  But make no mistake, this is representative government.  It is people hashing out what they want and how to obtain it from a process of debate and discussion.  Ideas are being circulated, argued, discussed and then voted upon.

That's government folks.  You're seeing it.

What comes next?

Well, that depends on whether the denizens in Washington DC pay attention and wake the hell up.  Whether they decide to STOP THE LOOTING AND START PROSECUTING.  Whether they stand and demand that the frauds and the schemes not only end but those responsible are held to account.  We tried it their way - "we must move on" - and the behavior didn't change.  The swilling banksters not only didn't go to jail, they didn't stop looting either.  They stand on their 30th floor balconies sipping champagne and jeer at the "hoi polloi" below who are being literally bled dry by their schemes and scams.

The fact of the matter is that the cabal of looters, including Bernanke who is stealing from Granny each and every day with his "zero interest  rates" in a puerile and outrageous attempt to prevent those who ripped her off with "home equity loans" and 30% interest on credit cards from having to face the music for their idiocy, still haven't repudiated their failed policies and faced the mathematics: What they're doing can't work; the victims of this vampiric attack have been sucked dry and have no more blood to "donate" by force!

There is only one question left to answer: How serious are these folks in the various cities?

If the people have truly awakened then the government had no option but to STOP THE LOOTING AND START PROSECUTING.  To deflate the odious and unpayable debt rather than try to build the pyramid higher.  To cease deficit spending.  To accept that the contraction that must come will come, but to refuse at the same time to protect those who did idiotic and even criminal things from the just deserts of their acts. 

Yes, such a path forward will bring more economic pain in the short term.  But the bulk of that pain should fall on the over-levered individual (who will be forced into bankruptcy) and the fat-cat banksters who intentionally lent money they did not have and knew couldn't be paid as agreed, who will also go bankrupt and join the ranks of the destitute.

There are members of the "1%" who got there through honest industry.  But they're damn few in number.  Those who exploited offshore labor - kids and near-literal slaves, along with poisoning the air and water in China to make billions (e.g: all the "darling" companies people know and love) are not innocent capitalists.  They're rapacious bastards, just as guilty as are the predatory lenders bilking people on serial refinances and University Reagents who built ivory-tower bullshit predicated on outrageously-abusive "lending" peddling worthless "degrees."  Then there's the medical "industry" that rips you off for $20 for a dick pill in America while a Canadian - hardly a poor nation - can pop the same pill for $2.  It's all part of the same racket, and it's time to tear away the special privileges that have allowed these people to literally steal your future and that of the youth of this nation.

I suspect that this movement will not go away.  Indeed, should the power of the government be abused further to try to stamp it out with violence there is a very real risk of revolution.  This is the fear I've voiced before; history says that for every 1 George Washington you get 10 Hitlers or Pol Pots.  The odds suck should the people decide they're not going to stand for it, which is why in The Declaration the following appears:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

The Colonists more than 200 years ago knew the risks.  There were certainly many examples of attempts to form a more-perfect union that had failed in the past, resulting in totalitarian states.  Most of the Colonists came from one or another - they knew what bondage was!

No, I do not wish to see violence.  I do not wish to see Revolution.  I fear it, because I have read history, I have studied history, and I know the odds.  The odds suck ladies and gentlemen, but these odds are known to the Washington elite as well.

I therefore hope - indeed, pray - that instead we will see contemplation in our seats of political power.  That we will see the government do the right thing and respond to the will of the people, not the will of the looter.  The looters are not the people in the parks waving signs - they're the ones in the balconies.  They're infesting The Federal Reserve and indeed Congress as well.

There remains time for reform.  To level with the American people: You were made political promises that are mathematically impossible to keep.  The political machinery of this nation and indeed of other nations as well built edifices that ensconced and protected frauds, both legal and illegal.  These edifices must come down.  Those who did criminal things must be and will be punished, those who did stupid things must and will be exposed to the natural outcomes of foolish acts.

No, you cannot have the pension you were promised: Those who promised it to you lied.  8% compounded growth forever is impossible.

9% growth in medical costs cannot be sustained forever either.  Drug and device companies, along with the medical industry generally, lobbied furiously for special protections so they could literally loot the economy, more than doubling the share of economic activity they plundered from you.

The education industry is just as bad.  College costs have gone up some 500% over the last 30 years.  This too was driven by two fraudulent edifices: The claim that "everyone should go to college" along with "free" money lent to everyone to attend, even though those doing the lending knew damn well that a huge percentage could not pay and would not find employment.  We know this is true because these lenders lobbied for, and received, special protection to prevent students from going bankrupt and discharging their debt!

The housing industry lied as well.  10% growth projections in price trumpeted by many were a knowing lie.  That too is mathematically impossible on an indefinite forward basis; hell, even on a 30 year (duration of a mortgage) basis it's impossible.  The $150,000 house turns into a $2.4 million one if you believe those numbers.  Yet this is what you were "sold" and worse, the financiers enabled it by "selling" you money to chase that which they knew would blow up.  They just didn't know when it would.

We still hear people talking about "investing for the next 20 years" in companies that tout 5-year expected earnings growth of 20-25% annualized.  One such company, were this to prove up over 20 years, would have revenues of more than $2 trillion by that time.  Not billion, trillion   That clearly isn't going to happen, yet that same claim was made in the 1990s and virtually every one of those firms collapsed - they were ultimately a zero!

Removing the artificial supports that propped up these schemes, scams and frauds will cause the economy to go into freefall.  That's a fact.  But we can mitigate some of these harms, and we must. 

We must stop believing in "globalization" where what it really means is offshoring labor to places with 1/30th of our labor cost as they employ children and near slaves, literally having to place nets around the buildings so the workers can't commit suicide.

We must stop allowing people to come into this county as "migrants" when in fact the reason businesses want them here is that they're undocumented, cheap to employ, cost-shift their education and health care to everyone else and are being literally abused as if slaves here in the United States.  No instead these people must leave - and those jobs must go to Americans.

We must recognize that the consequence of ramping inflationary impacts on assets -  including "home prices" - must be allowed to correct.  If you support widespread homeownership why is it that basically nobody actually owns a house?  You don't own something if the bank has the title nor do you own something that you must pay taxes on every week, month or year.  I own my computer; it's paid for and there is no continuing payment to government or a bank for it.  I do not own my house; while I have no mortgage to a bank I sure have one to my local county, don't I?  We must stop lying to the people about what is really going on, have the debate on what we want, and how we're going to pay for it.

In short the schemes, scams and frauds have to end.  I recognize that there is short-term pain involved in doing this but it doesn't matter - it has to happen and it will.  Our only option lies in choosing to do it on our terms rather than through societal and political collapse.  For those interested in justice not only will ending the scams mean prosecution for those who deserve it, it will mean bankruptcy for many of those "Fat cats" who really aren't rich - they're living large on the same leverage that the common people were during the housing bubble years, and when it collapses they will be rendered broke as well.

We can either face facts in this nation or the nascent beginning of a potential replacement of our current government will grow, as will the risks.  History says that the people are usually ignored by the looters right up until a substantial fraction have lost everything and therefore have nothing to lose.  When that group become of sufficient size and decide to organize, the game's over and the outcome is usually very undesirable.

Do not hope or pray for revolution my friends.  Down that road lies terrible risk and poor odds.  Instead, pray for wisdom and change by our elected and appointed officials, that they choose the path of sanity rather than compounding insanity.

The time to do the right thing is running out.

View this entry with comments (registration required to post)


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:09 | 1794489 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Karl is a Socialist/Fascist empire lover that supported Obama/Biden 2008...nuff' said!

P.S. Fuck that egomanical, know-it-all asshole and the fascist puppets that suck his every word...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:21 | 1794590 akak
akak's picture

It would probably be more accurate to describe Karl Forumfuhrer Denniger as not only a fascist --- witness his utterly intolerant and iron-handed approach to silencing any traces of dissent within his own forum --- but a fascist with a burning, undying love of the whole fiat, fractional reserve, paper financial Ponzi house of cards, from which he made his living and wealth, and which he is evidently going to vehemently defend to his dying day. 

Karl Klownshoes Denninger has steadfastly refused to acknowledge that it is not the people in charge who are the problem, it is the entire corrupt and unsustainable SYSTEM that is fundamentally at fault.  Klownshoes not only will not acknowledge this fact, he has vitriolically denied it on numerous occasions.  "Really, just make me the dictator, and everything will be just fine!" seems to be his guiding principle.

Karl Denninger is nothing but a fool, a fraud and a fascist.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:24 | 1794640 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Thus Karl's empire love!

But do not be deceived; their are elements of Karl that are quite socialist, as long as HE is in charge!

Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. (i.e. fiat currency and fractional reserve banking, which KARL WORSHIPS)

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:36 | 1795764 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Good points AKAK.  I got hurled from his forum after only 2 posts (a world record even for me, lol), and that explains things nicely!  He's a pretty sharp cat financially, but like most public commentators (even my favorite Santa) when they cross the line into Political predictions and observations they start to look ...  very normal ... and that's putting it nicely.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:13 | 1795837 akak
akak's picture

After perusing his stalag/gulag of a forum at length one day, I fled without ever looking back or revisiting that sad excuse of a venue for honest or intelligent discussion.  When I want to read or hear my fill of ass-kissing, mindless sychophancy, I can always turn on CNBC and listen to Steve LIESman gush about Bernanke and the Fed.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:53 | 1794516 divide_by_zero
divide_by_zero's picture

Denninger may be fiscally conservative but more often than not he's spewing the progressive line, on progressive shows, with progressive hosts.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:21 | 1794563 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Progressive + Progressive = Socialist/Fascist hybrid

The math doesn't lie!  lol

Niceville = Herpaderp FTW

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:36 | 1796049 stirners_ghost
stirners_ghost's picture

That's funny. A little ways up the page I could have sworn you were channeling Karl Denninger with your screaming about the virtues of Rule of Law and whatnot. Karl always had a real hard-on for that particular precept.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:04 | 1794794 AchtungAffen
AchtungAffen's picture

Hah, another one who sees the sickle and hammer even on the soup. I haven't seen a real american communist since the 70's... If only you had some real commies, they would be good to balance with the crazies on the right too.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:37 | 1794449 Capitalist10
Capitalist10's picture

Exactly.  OWS believes the problem with crony capitalism is the capitalism.  The Tea Party believes it is the cronies.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:39 | 1794459 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

He forgot to mention in his data that 48% of the OWS crowd will vote for Obummer.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:44 | 1794473 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

He forgot to mention in his data that 48% of the OWS crowd will vote for Obummer.

In my personal experience at OWS-NY, it was more like 98%...

Once OWS coronates Obama/Stalin 2012, there'll be free U$D money for everyone!

Who needs those capitalist barbaric relics of pigish imperialists - Gold & silver are for the 1% bourgeoisie!

Now, where is my red flag...


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:05 | 1794495 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

The solution is easy.  OWS & Tea Party should target Washington lobbying, and support public funding of elections to stop interests groups (unions & big business), from interfering in policy, by using PACs, and other means.


You stop the outside money, and you stop distortion of  economic & fical policies, because it must be mapped onto a 2/4 year election schedule.


Campaign finance reform is a near cure-all.


The public needs to firewall politicians from big money (unions & big business).  Then our voices will be heard, since they won't have to spend x hrs calling, and making promises to donors for their re-election apparatrus


Government is not expanded.  You spend a lil tax payer money, but you protect the Treasury from being redistributed to the 1%.  That's smart governance.


The Roman Empire fell for the same reason:  excessive outside money (Marcus Crassus vs Pompeius Magnus) interfering in elections


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:05 | 1794796 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

A flat tax will do that, too.  No need to get the government involved any more than you have to.

I do agree that it is both parties and ... of course ... the banksters.  I conveniently tag'em as Washington and Wall Street.

Personally ... I consider myself a progressive libertarian.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:24 | 1794856 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

OWS & Tea Party = Red v. Whites Oct-Nov 1917

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:07 | 1794572 Syrin
Syrin's picture

It is even depper.   The Sesame Streeters solution is to take property from fellow citizens trhough coercion using the gov't as the vehicle.   Sorry, I'll NEVER support that on any level.   Want to talk about what greed is?   GREED is taking the fruit's of ANOTHER'S labor.   That's greed.  Meanwhile I imagine MOST of the Sesame Streeters belong to the 47% that pay NO income taxes and have NO skin in the game yet have the same voice, rights and priviledges as those who DO!   Yeah, fair share my ass.   Legal theft of their neighbor's property is what they want.  

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:37 | 1794895 libertus
libertus's picture

That is not accurate. OWS is interested in democracy and capitalism. It not just a bunch of collectivists. The tea party should join in---wait they all ready are. 

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:00 | 1794953 toady
toady's picture

Actually, The opposite is true.

The OWS people are all over the map. I haven't heard a unified voice calling for big government.

The tea party is the group saying 'don't touch my SS or medicare, and that equals big government to me.

I can't support that.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:18 | 1795022 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

I haven't heard a unified voice calling for big government.

Well, hear you go then...the manic screams of the Lumpenproletariat:

IV. Suggested Content of the Petition For A Redress of Grievances:

In order to facilitate the timely election of the 870 Delegates to the National General Assembly by July 4, 2012 and petition the government for a redress of grievances before the 2012 elections, the Working Group on the 99% Declaration, founded and duly announced to the New York City General Assembly on October 15, 2011, shall draft a suggested list of grievances to be respectfully submitted to the Delegates of the National General Assembly no later than June 30, 2012. The final version of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES ratified by the National General Assembly, MAY or MAY NOT include the following issues suggested by the Working Group on the 99% Declaration:

1. Implementing an immediate ban on all private contributions of money and gifts, to all politicians in federal office, from individuals, corporations, "political action committees", "super political action committees", lobbyists, unions and all other private sources of money or thing of value to be replaced by the fair, equal and total  public financing of all federal political campaigns. We categorically REJECT the concepts that corporations are persons or that money is equal to free speech because if that were so, then only the wealthiest people and corporations would have a voice. The complete elimination of private contributions must enacted by law because it has become clear that politicians in the United States cannot regulate themselves and have become the exclusive representatives of corporations, unions and the very wealthy who indirectly and directly spend vast sums of money on political campaigns to influence the candidates’ decisions when they attain office and ensure their reelection year after year. Our elected representatives spend far too much of their time fundraising for the next election rather than doing the People's business. The current system's propagation of legalized bribery and perpetual conflicts of interests has reduced our once great republican democracy to a greed driven corporatocracy run by boardroom oligarchs who represent .05% of the population but own 38% of the wealth.

2. The immediate abrogation, even if it requires a Constitutional Amendment, of the outrageous and anti-democratic holding in the "Citizens United" case proclaimed by the United States Supreme Court. This heinous  decision, which equates the payment of money by corporations, wealthy individuals and unions to politicians with the exercise of protected free speech. We, the People, demand that this institutional bribery and corruption never again be deemed protected free speech.

3. Prohibiting all federal public employees, officers, officials or their immediate family members from ever being employed by any corporation, individual or business that they specifically regulated while in office;  nor may any public employee, officer, official or their immediate family members own or hold any stock or shares in any corporation they regulated while in office until a full 5 years after their term is completed; and a complete lifetime ban on accepting all gifts, services, money or thing of value, directly or indirectly, to any elected or appointed federal official or their immediate family members, from any person, corporation, union or other entity that the public official was charged to specifically regulate while in office. In sum, elected politicians and public employees in regulatory roles, may only collect their salary, generous healthcare benefits and pension. Any person, including  corporate employees, found guilty and convicted of violating these rules in a court of law by proof beyond a reasonable doubt, shall be sentenced to a term of mandatory imprisonment of no less than one year and nor more than ten years. 

4.  Term Limits. Members of the United States House of Representatives shall be limited to serving no more than four two-year terms in their lifetime. Members of the United States Senate shall be limited to serving no more than two six-year terms in their lifetime.  The two term limit for President shall remain unchanged. Serving as a member of Congress or the President of the United States is the one of the highest honors and privileges our culture can bestow. These positions of prominence in our society should be sought to serve one's country and not provide lifetime career designed to increase personal wealth and accumulate power for the sake of vanity.

5.  A complete reformation of the United States Tax Code to require ALL citizens to pay a fair share of a progressive, graduated income tax by eliminating loopholes, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and deductions, subsidies (e.g. oil, gas and farm) and ending all other methods of evading taxes. The current system of taxation favors the wealthiest Americans, many of whom, pay fewer taxes to the United States Treasury than citizens who earn much less and pay a much higher percentage of income in taxes to the United States Treasury. We, like Warren Buffet, find this income tax disparity to be fundamentally unjust.

6. Medicare for all American citizens or adoption of a single-payer healthcare system. The Medicaid program, fraught with corruption and fraud, will be eliminated except for the purpose of providing emergency room care to indigent non-citizens who will not be covered by the single-payer healthcare system.

7. New comprehensive regulations to give the Environmental Protection Agency expanded powers to shut down corporations, businesses or any entities that intentionally or recklessly damage the environment and/or criminally prosecute individuals who intentionally damage the environment. We also demand the immediate adoption of the most recent international protocols, including the "Washington Declaration" to cap carbon emissions and implement new and existing programs to transition away from fossil fuels to reusable or carbon neutral sources of energy.

8. Adoption of an immediate plan to reduce the national debt to a sustainable percentage of GDP by 2020. Reduction of the national debt to be achieved by BOTH a cut in spending to corporations engaged in perpetual war for profit, the "healthcare" industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the communications industry, the oil and industry, and all other sectors that use the federal budget as their income stream. We agree that spending cuts are necessary but those cuts must be made to facilitate what is best for the People of the United States of America, not multinational and domestic corporations who currently have a stranglehold on all politicians in Washington, D.C. in both parties.

9. Passage of a comprehensive job and job-training act like the American Jobs Act to employ our citizens in jobs that are available with specialized training and by putting People to work now by repairing America's crumbling infrastructure. We also recommend the establishment of an online international job exchange to match employers with skilled workers or employers willing to train workers in 21st century skills. In conjunction with a new jobs act, reinstitution of the Works Progress Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps or a similar emergency governmental agency tasked with creating new public works projects to provide jobs to the 46 million People living in poverty, the 9.1% unemployed and 10% underemployed.

10. Implementation of a student loan debt relief forgiveness program. Our young students are more than $830 billion in debt from education loans alone with few employment prospects due to financial collapse directly caused by the unbridled and unregulated greed of Wall Street. Interest on these debts should be reduced and  deferred for periods of unemployment and the principal on these loans reduced or forgiven by using a Wall Street corporate tax surcharge as reparations for their conduct leading to the economic collapse of 2007-2008 and current worldwide recession. 

11. Immediate passage of the Dream Act and comprehensive immigration and border security reform including offering visas, lawful permanent resident status and citizenship to the world’s brightest People to stay and work in our industries and schools after they obtain their education and training in the United States.

12. Recalling all military personnel at all non-essential bases and refocusing national defense goals to address threats posed by the geopolitics of the 21st century, including terrorism and limiting the large scale deployment of military forces to instances where Congressional approval has been granted to counter the Military Industrial Complex's goal of perpetual war for profit. The annual estimated savings of one trillion dollars per year by updating our military posture will be applied to the social programs outlined herein to improve the quality of life  for human beings rather than assisting corporations make ever increasing profits distributed to the top 1% of wealth owners.

13. Mandating new educational goals to train the American public to perform jobs in a 21st Century economy, particularly in the areas of technology and green energy, taking into consideration the redundancy caused by technology and the inexpensive cost of labor in China, India and other countries. Eliminating tenure and paying our teachers a competitive salary commensurate with the salaries of employees in the private sector with similar skills because without highly skilled teachers, there will never be a highly skilled workforce.

14. Subject to the elimination of corporate tax loopholes and exploited exemptions and deductions stated above, offering tax incentives to businesses to remain in the United States and hire our citizens rather than outsource jobs. Introducing an "outsourcing tax" to discourage business form sending jobs overseas. Providing tax breaks to companies that invest in reconstructing the manufacturing capacity of the United States so that we again make everyday products in the United States rather than importing them from countries like China and India.  

15. Implementing immediate legislation and WTO intervention to encourage China and our other trading partners to end currency manipulation and reduce the trade deficit.

16.  Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act and increased regulation of Wall Street and the financial industry by the SEC, FINRA and the other financial regulators, and the commencement of a Justice Department criminal investigations into the Securities and Banking industries practices that led to the collapse of markets, $700 billion bail-out, and financial firm failures in 2007-2008. Introduction of a small financial transaction fee to collect a tax on each and every stock trade and all other forms of financial transactions. Uniform regulations limiting what banks may charge consumers for ATM fees, the use of debit cards and other miscellaneous "fees". Ending $4 billion dollar a year "hedge fund loophole" which permits certain individuals engaged in financial transactions to evading income tax rates by treating their income as capital gains which are taxed at a much lower tax rate (approximately 15%).

17. Adoption of a plan similar to President Clinton’s proposal to end the mortgage crisis and instead of the Federal Reserve Bank continuing to lower interest rates for loans to banks who are refusing to loan to small businesses and consumers, the Federal Reserve Bank shall buy all underwater or foreclosed mortgages and refinance these debts at 1% or less to be managed by the newly established Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (and foreclosure task force described below) because 1% or less is the interest rate the Federal Reserve Bank loans to the banks directly who hoard the cash rather than loan it to the People and small businesses. The immediate formation of a non-partisan commission, overseen by Congress, to investigate the economic risks and possibility of eliminating the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank and transferring its functions to the United States Treasury Department.

18. An immediate one year freeze on all foreclosures to be reviewed by an independent foreclosure task force appointed by Congress and the Executive Branch (in conjunction with the  Consumer Financial Protection Bureau ) to determine, on a case by case basis, whether foreclosure proceedings should continue based on the circumstances of each homeowner and the propriety of the financial institution's conduct when originating the loan.

19. Subject to the above ban on all private money and gifts in politics, to enact additional campaign finance reform requiring new FCC regulations granting free air time to all candidates; total public campaign financing to all candidates who obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to get on the ballot and participate in the primaries and/or electoral process; shortening the campaign season to three months; and allowing voting on weekends and holidays; issuance of free voter registration cards to all citizens who are eligible to vote so that they cannot be turned away at a polling station because they not have a drivers license or other form of identification and the option to mail-in voter ballots in all elections.

20. An immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and a substantial increase in the amount of funding needed for veteran job placement and the treatment of the physical and emotional injuries sustained by veterans in these wars. Our veterans are committing suicide at an unprecedented rate and we must help now.

There's your *BIG* .GOV buckeroo...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:57 | 1795428 toady
toady's picture

You really believe those people out in the street wrote that lawyer-speak?

I also note the non-response to the tea parties stance on not cutting SS or medicare, the two biggest budget-busters out there.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:05 | 1795249 schadenfreude
schadenfreude's picture

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. But to kill the enemy first and discuss the differences afterwards is a good idea.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:37 | 1794413 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Anyone that really wants to find out what OWS is really about, spend at least a day inside the kamp @ OWS-NY...

Beware, it'll take at least 2 showers to get the stink off!

P.S.  I'd also suggest spraying some anarcho-socialist repellent on your clothing, lest you become a victim...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:09 | 1794577 Syrin
Syrin's picture

Hide your walllet and valuables since they are deciding to re-distribute it already.   In Cleveland they are even getting down with the rape.  I guess that's paying the "fair share" as well. 

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:07 | 1794802 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

I'm good with redistributing Waren B's holdings.  He's insolvent and I see no reason for me and my fellow tax payers to give him one red cent.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:34 | 1794680 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

okay, I apologize for ragging you about the cut/paste earlier.  This was cool.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:18 | 1794837 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

Well done.  You don't hear that much nowadays.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:55 | 1794524 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

Who is co-opting who?

 Washington wants to co-opt OWS.  Excuse me … but you’ve got it all wrong.  What OWS is looking to do is co-opt politicians.  In other words … OWS to Washington … if you ain’t part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

 Here’s a suggestion … set up an open mike for politicians who want to give speeches on supporting the rule of law.  See … if the 1’ers are bankrupt and they “own”80 to 90 percent of assets, then we the 99’ers don’t actually have a problem.  Talking about wealth redistribution …

 Stop Bernanke and Washington from bailing out the 1’ers by taxing the 99’ers overtly and/covertly.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:15 | 1794602 eureka
eureka's picture

Let each take responsibility for his own actions.

Anyone who believes in US exceptionalism, US military and financial world domination, and that includes many Tea Partiers and most republicans - are equally responsible for dividing the US population. They are also elitists.

So therefore, let Tea Partiers, republicans, neocons and hawkish democrats all give up the entitlement called empire - and maybe the left faction of Occupy Wall Street will give up the entitlement called socialism. And get rid of the Fed.

Right wingers love military spending - left wingers love social spending - the only difference of opinion is on what to spend. So how about we spend on none of it?

Otherwise - we will remain divided - and we will go down - all sides and factions.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:42 | 1795385 ClassicalLib17
ClassicalLib17's picture

@eureka,  you don't know shit about the TeaParty, so stfu.  You are not fooling anyone here.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:42 | 1795776 Thomas Paine
Thomas Paine's picture

Anyone who believes in US (American) exceptionalism"

the term does not imply superiority, put simply it implies unique and non-traditional concepts rooted in individual human liberties and rights permanently endowed by a Creator, not to be granted or toyed with by government; with a unique Constitution strictly limiting government intervention and traditional forms of tyranny and collectivist excesses including triballism, monied interests, emperors, kings, monarchy and know-it-all politburo progressives (dickhead control freaks).  Collectivist central bankers with fiat printing presses are primary among these groups of itinerant looters.  That is the original meaning of the American Exceptionalism experiment, which is now severely bastardized along with the original intent and protections of the Constitution.

- tom

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:25 | 1794861 macholatte
macholatte's picture

Mr Krieger: Good Job   +10

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:49 | 1794889 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

True, but isn't that article like a no-brainer?

Should someone even be put in the position to dispatch the truth to a brain-dead citizenry that can't even stop their servants from looting?

Honestly, I think there is indeed no hope...people just don't want to be Sons of Liberty anymore.

WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.


WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Wakey wakey sheeple; if you don't figure out YOUR legal solution soon, the Congress' Super-comintern will do it for you!

RIP 'MeriKA, we hardly knew ye - Wish I could say it was nice knowin' ya :-|


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:32 | 1795075 macholatte
macholatte's picture

Should someone even be put in the position to dispatch the truth to a brain-dead citizenry that can't even stop their servants from looting?

And what have you been doing all day on this particular thread? (Good Job)

Paul Revere was necessary. May I submit that the tone has changed in the past couple of weeks. Maybe it's because of Ron Paul or Cain or OWS. Nevertheless, as the kinds of charges made by Krieger get more traction then more people will become enlightened. Maybe even the Hollywood crowd will see the light and toss Bill Mahr and the MSNBC Progressives off the air. But I'm not holding my breath.

In case you missed it........



Mon, 01/16/2012 - 09:57 | 2068426 adrin
adrin's picture

That is a really nice read for me, Must admit that you are one out of the top bloggers I ever saw.Thanks for posting that informative article. Luton airport parking and if you are looking for some best deals on meet and greet airport parking services you can get easily but im sure you need to eat some delicious things for that you need to learn sushi recipes

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:28 | 1794412 Timmay
Timmay's picture

Let's get the heads of both movements have a sit down and map out the overlap of the things they want and then form a broader coalition to get those goals politically. The edges may still battle over fringe issues, but the core can focus on the  REAL issues.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:05 | 1794561 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

There is some common ground here. We need to reach out and discuss ideas with them. Thats one reason i hang out with lefties occasionally.

The other reason is that they have the best weed and leftist pussy is passed around rather freely!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:57 | 1794757 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Yeah, I hate to break it to you, but you're not fooling anyone,

"This whole episode to me underscores an unpleasant development for OWS. There is going to be a fusillade of attempts from many different corners to force these demonstrations into the liberal-conservative blue-red narrative."-Matt Taibbi

Not you, nmwen, or any of the other disingenuous pricks here on ZH who think their divisive rote is persuasive, subtle and clever. It isn't.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:11 | 1795001 toady
toady's picture

If we could just find a 'head' of either organization!

Of course, once a leader is recognised the character, or out-right, assasination begins!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:28 | 1794415 Steel_Preacher
Steel_Preacher's picture


Brick wall + Blindfold for all of them.....


after due process of course

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:20 | 1794629 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I think we have reached a consensus, gentlemen.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:29 | 1794417 FinalCollapse
FinalCollapse's picture

About half of Tea Party supporters, also supports the OWS movement. This gives you 37% (26+11).

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:49 | 1794418 redpill
redpill's picture

There's only one person in the running for US President that actively supports these goals, who defends the interests of both the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street. His name is Ron Paul.

If you want to make a difference, get out there and explain this to your friends and family and refuse to be led around by your nose by the theatrics of the useless tools we call US Television Media.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:30 | 1794421 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Another shippment of US cheap propaganda.

No. Nothing to teach.

US citizens support fully inequality (save when it comes to their crimes and all, suddenly, everyone is equal and has done as bad as uS citizens)

Inequality requires an element of power to make sure you are onthe right side of equality.

For OWS, this element of power is WS. If they destroy WS, they will go onthe right side of inequality.

For TP, this element of power is thegovernment. Same stuff here.

Inequality makes the struggle over the means to achieve domination absolutely necessary.

No majority here. They are united though in that they support inequality.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:36 | 1794610 akak
akak's picture

"Blah blah blah ... I hate Americans ... herp derp dederp .... US Citizens are the source of all evil in the world ... blah blah blah .... all Americans are the Devil .... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ....."

If you weren't anonymous, I would visit you at home and punch you right in your mangina.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:40 | 1794706 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

There is always inequality unless u r a communist.
Sounds like another eurosocialist.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:58 | 1794900 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Blah blah blah... socialism is Stalinism is communism is authoritarianism is a mixed economy... I lump every European nation into one category, which I deliberately misnomer, while disregarding any and all examples of obvious success that plainly contradict my arrogant wilful ignorance...only 'anarcho capitalism' (or whatever I'm calling my vain fantasy) can produce a rainbow shitting unicorn because the power vacuums I imagine are eternal, but don't you DARE expect me to provide a functioning example because they only exist in my addled can only be a 'nation' if you meet my narrow minded definition of one, or if the Pope says so; personal attack, rant fume hiss, etc. etc..."

If you weren't such a kak I'd meet you down by the bicycle rack at 3 oclock and sock you in your festering gob, you tit.

"The stars at night, are big and bright..."



See what I did there?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:45 | 1795134 akak
akak's picture

The ongoing accumulation of power by statist psychopaths worldwide, and the abject surrender to institutionalized force (a.k.a. government) by their sheepish enablers like you, GoinNowhere, are the reasons why civilization is collapsing today.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:13 | 1795250 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Yeah yeah, we've already covered your egregious misconceptions regarding me and a great many other things.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:37 | 1795063 Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture

Please explain how 320,000,000 people using approx 31% of global resources [88kw/person] can be maintained without massive exploitation, and I won't come around and use your total lack of perspective as a punchline to a joke.

Oh, and if you're over-weight, I get bonus points as I rack up the combos.


Bonus round: you used the "herp derp derp" meme, which means I get to play intarweb style with you. Here's hoping you're more /b/ than Reddit, otherwise this will be short.




p.s. It is already clear that your tiny penis has AIDS, but we'll do the usual "pictures or GTFO". Unless you're over-weight, at which point we'll play "Where's Wally" & we'll get some prior references to determine the empirical truth.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:36 | 1795536 Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture



Akak wanted to play, so responded to all of the above. But when a genuine intarweb playa came, he chicken'd out & ran away.


We'd go for Monty Python, but this is more apt:

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 16:27 | 1794653 Ruffcut
Ruffcut's picture

If walls street corruption has destroyed our future then they need to be destroyed, you anonymous moron.

Fuck you and yours. Mom, upstairs too!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:30 | 1794423 Peter K
Peter K's picture

The reason the liberal mainstream corporate media demonized the Tea Party is because the legacy media is a bunch of racist bigoted douche bags. The reason the conservative corporate mainstream media demonizes Occupy Wall Street is because they are a bunch of losers who smoked one too many bongs. And besides, they need a bath. Oh,and this.... socialism es muerte:)

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:24 | 1795043 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Hey Peteski,

would you consider Norway 'socialist'?

If so, humour me and scroll down the 'Data Summary' table provided in the link below and tell me if you can detect a heartbeat:

or were you just soliciting fluffers?

All in all, you can take your polarized stereotypes and shove them up your... nose.


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:53 | 1795179 akak
akak's picture

Yep, the solution to EVERY problem with you statists is to surrender ever-more power to the organized gangs of thugs known as governments.  Government-created problem at hand?  I know the solution!  Give them more power, MORE power, MORE, ALWAYS MORE POWER! The Hegelian dialectic.  Just like caveman Krugman, for whom too much deficit spending is NEVER enough.  Yes, increase the level of institutionalized force and coercion within society --- that's the ticket!

Government: a disease masquerading as its own cure.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:59 | 1795384 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

So that's Norway to you akak? Well, I suppose if you don't blithely ignore reality that whole utopian fantasy thing you're white-knuckling would instantly begin to fade away...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:38 | 1795507 akak
akak's picture

Yes, that is Norway --- even peaceful, harmonious, rainbows-every-day Norway.  To the extent that "The State" (read: an elite using institutionalized coercion) controls the economy and the lives of the people, to that exact extent the Norwegian people are not free.  Same for the Swedes, same for the Finnish, same for everyone else.  They may currently be doing "OK" (an oil bonanza certainly helps), but eventually they are going to face, no, ARE facing, the same problem as every other socialistic regime: in the end, socialism ALWAYS runs out of other people's money.  Sure, a welfare state can operate "successfully" -- for a while; so can any other Ponzi scheme.  But reality always wins in the end, and it is simple reality that statism is at odds with the necessary conditions for a long-term healthy and prosperous society.

The fact that Norwegians are culturally homogenous, and have an advanced culture that has prevented them from descending into the chaos of say Zaire or Rwanda as the government came to dominate more and more of society, in no way takes away from the fact that they would be MORE prosperous if the state interfered less with their economy.  Throughout history (that inconvenient area of study so embarrassing for you statists) there has been a direct correlation between prosperity and freedom (from government).  I challenge you to find ONE example of a highly statist society that is/was also prosperous, particularly for the average citizen/subject.

Anyway, thanks for the strawman argument, such as it was.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:48 | 1795674 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Norway was the subject of my question, idiot. You're the one introducing strawmen here; or are you just raving as usual?

" the end, socialism ALWAYS runs out of other people's money." What a load of insipid 80's rote.

So that's your oil those inconsiderate Norwegians are benefiting from then? How stupid are you, seriously? And Maggie Thatcher (amongst other loonies) wants to talk to you about the discredited rote of others you keep regurgitating and trying to pawn off as your own.

Until Norway actually fails, you've got nothing but wishful thinking, dipshit. Oh, of course they could do so much better if they followed your 'sage' advice; send 'em a note, I'm sure they'll take it under consideration, lol! Yah, their SWF sure looks like it needs YOUR help!

You don't actually know very much, do you? Paying attention to details that contradict your position isn't exactly your strong point, is it? I know Iknow: if it was, you'd have to grow up and actually face your inanity.

 Norwegians have the same, if not more, civil liberties than you do, rule of law applies to all (more than less) access to top notch affordable healthcare... Look, I've been over this long, impressive by any sane person's standards, list before, I'm not wasting my time repeating it to you again, you disingenuous brown eye.

I've repeatedly given you my examples of highly successful mixed economies, and they are indeud exemplary. It's been your turn to pony up something specific for quite some time, ass.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:00 | 1795701 akak
akak's picture

You disingenuous, lying piece of shit. I can go into Norway in detail if I cared to, but what is the point?  Is Norway --- a HIGHLY anomalous, and anomalously rich, nation the end-all and sine qua non of civilizations, by which all others are to be measured?  Why do you continually focus on one of the MOST unrepresentative of your so-called "mixed" (semi-free, semi-authoritarian, semi-statist) societies?  Oh yeah, of course --- because your argument in defense of statism is laughably weak and unsupportable.

One could have made the same blinkered and laughable comparison between the USSR circa 1970 and, say, Zaire.  "Look at how much more prosperous we are than those poor benighted Africans, comrades!  Socialism is undeniably the wave of the future!"  Yeah, and how did that work out for them? 

None of that is to say that I support the increasingly statist society here in the USSA either --- it is failing, and will collapse, due to the very same reasons that the USSR collapsed: the growing power, and inevitable inefficiencies and mismanagement, of government.  You statists always try to argue details and minutia, but invariably refuse to look at fundamentals and the big picture, that picture being that statism is nothing more and nothing less than institutionalized coercion, FORCE to be blunt.  History has proven that a prosperous, long term healty and sustainable society requires just the opposite: a minimum of state control, and a maximum of voluntary social interactions within a free market.  The broad sweep of history supports my case, and damns your own.

Ironic that "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented in Scandinavia --- a syndrome with which you, and millions of other sheep around the world, are obviously afflicted.  The "need" for government is nothing but a myth and THE single greatest crime perpetrated by humanity against itself, and when enough people finally realize that, we will see the most profound and fundamental advancement of human civilization since the invention of agriculture.

Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:41 | 1795745 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Is Norway --- a HIGHLY anomalous, and anomalously rich, nation..."

 'exceptionalism' non sequitr. Fail. Also, how was all that wealth 'distributed' exactly? <cough>

 "..the end-all and sine qua non of civilizations, by which all others are to be measured"

As usual: I have never, ever, written anything even remotely close to that effect. It's just the MO of extremists like yourself to extrapolate someone else's words well beyond their meaning; as a substitute for you having an actual argument.

Norwegians definitely have some great ideas worth looking at, however. And SWF's are hardly dependent on a country's ethnicity.

On that note: We're all still waiting for that shining (recorded) historical example of your 'anarcho blee blea bleau' utopian fantasy.  

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:45 | 1795778 akak
akak's picture

Why, then, do you constantly bring up Norway as the ONE, apparently classic, example of your so-called "mixed economies"?  And it has not just been today, or with me --- I have seen you make the same disingenuous argument with others, for quite some time now.  But that is the nature of statists, who never learn from history, and keep dragging themselves, and us, into the same stupid mistakes, by submitting to the same gangs of sociopaths and psychopaths, over and over again.

Compare the dynamic economies, and opportunities for advancement and self-improvement through self-employment (as opposed to being the wage slave of giant multinational corporations) in the USA or Canada in the latter 19th and early 20th centuries to the situation today.  Gee, not a very favorable comparison, is it?  Now just why might that be, and what about those societies has changed in the last century?  Oh yeah: the power and scope of government, and the choking mountain of bureaucratic rules and regulations that are stifling individual enterprise.  Just as they did in the later Roman Empire.  And the "solution" always proposed and advanced during their similar decline?  More and more bureaucracy, and more and more government rules and regulations!  And the worse their economy became, the more desperate the calls for "more, More, MORE!" government power became.  By the end, the economy of the (Western) Roman Empire was virtually entirely state-controlled, yet highly less productive than it had been before the state took on so many powers.  In fact, money had almost entirely ceased to circulate for many decades towards its fall, as it was all but useless within an economy controlled by government decrees and mandates.  But THAT, it seems, is what atavistic power-lovers such as yourself seem to want to inflict on the rest of humanity.  God damn you and your collectivist fantasies and utopian notions, which in reality always end up in statist nightmares.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:52 | 1795941 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I keep referring to Norway because it so obviously successful (should be a moot point by now).

"Compare the dynamic economies, and opportunities for advancement and self-improvement through self-employment (as opposed to being the wage slave of giant multinational corporations) in the USA or Canada in the latter 19th and early 20th centuries to the situation today".

Your 'freedom' talking point is ridiculous blather, disingenuously designed to elicit a Pavlovian response from your fellow zealots. Contrary to your inane assertions, absolutely no one in Scandinavia is prevented from pursuing any avenue of happiness they choose, barring their own limitations and respecting the shared rights of their fellow Scandinavians, natch. And 'state control' is almost entirely in the hands of their highly educated and politically involved populations, also contrary to your ignorant statements.

Comparing them to NA a century ago... are you serious? Present day Scandinavia leads the way in practically any category you should care to examine, pilgrim.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:49 | 1795781 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Oh please AKAK is not the extremist here.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:32 | 1795849 akak
akak's picture

Actually, JLee, I am an extremist -- in defense of liberty.

Too bad this GoinNowhere, like most people in the world today, has no clue about how necessary liberty is to a healthy and prosperous society, nor apparently any understanding of what liberty actually means or entails.  But that just makes him part of the 95+% who suffer from Stockholm Syndrome at the hands of the gangs of ponerists who call themselves "government".

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:44 | 1795892 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

oH ghod help me, here come the fluffers...

Certainly you're not suggesting that noting the success of a nation like Norway, different though it is from Akak's imaginary fantasyland is 'extremist' JLee?

 Power vacuums don't last. Period. Which is why mixed economies (not 'russialism' or whatever it is you insist on incessantly mistaking them for) will always be the most successful in the real world.

But at least you can finally admit that you are an extremist Akak; baby steps buddy.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:39 | 1795942 akak
akak's picture

Now you are just babbling senselessly, and to no purpose.

Your "point" (was there one?) about "power vacuums" is irrelevant and a complete red herring.  Or are you trying to imply that a free society would be automatically incapable of defending itself against thugs and those willing to dominate it?  And just what do we call thugs and gangs who come to dominate and claim a monopoly over the exercise of power within a society?  Oh yes, governments.

But again, statist, you refuse to acknowledge that history (you know, that thing which you statists hate so much, and avoid discussing whenever possible) clearly demonstrates that the degree to which a society prospers, and honors the dignity and rights of the individual, has been without exception in inverse proportion to the power and size of the government presiding over that society.

You can throw around Norway as an example all you want (and just WHAT is your fetishitic fascination with that one nation, anyway?), but I can give you dozens, no hundreds, of examples of "mixed economies" that fare, or fared, far worse than Norway is (temporarily) today.  How about just about any African nation of the last half-century?  How about ANY Eastern European nation in the period 1945-1990?  (And even there, the slightly freer ones, such as Hungary and Yugoslavia, were clearly better off than those that were more under the Communist state thumb.)  But this is all beside the point, as ALL economies are and have been "mixed" (i.e., subject to state control) to some degree or another.   But it is the EXTENT to which they have been free from government interference or control that has virtually always determined their prosperity, or the lack of it.  Yes, minor and transitory (my new favorite word) exceptions can be found from this trend, but they are only the exceptions that prove the rule.

In the REAL world, it is the extent to which a nation or society's economy is FREE --- operating via voluntary interactions within a free market, as opposed to being subject to government coercion and control --- that will determine the degree to which that nation or society, and its economy, is successful or not, as well as the degree to which that society is fair, open and just.

I realize now that you are really not worth debating, as you are fully inured to the statist paradigm and mindset, and therefore hopelessly resigned to being a state subject and slave.  I merely write this for the many readers who are not participants in this discussion.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:22 | 1796031 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

No, a government in a 'free society' derives its power from a mandate from the masses. It is the subject of the sovereign, which is the people. It has a constitution designed to protect inalienable individual rights from the majority.

And yes, I'm saying that in your wacked-out definition of a 'free society', with absolutely no regulation or organised civil oversight (gub'ment) whatsoever, the power vacuum created would be filled by thugs of a kind that answer to nobody but money, which is completely amoral, faster than you can skin a squirrel for dinner. IE, you'd have a government of some denomination or other whether you like it or no, and right smartly too. Hell, it would probably be very much like the one you have now, only moreso.

 Are you seriously attempting to equate the economies/political climate of present day Scandinavia with that of Eastern Europe 1945-90 under Stalinism, you raving lunatic? If so, it's pretty plain that I am not continuing this conversation for your benefit... yikes. Not that this has any chance of making it through your thick skull: but not one of those nations under Stalin were allowed to operate any Sovereign Wealth Funds, lol. Stalinism isn't socialism isn't communism isn't a mixed economy anything even close to what Norway has today.

Oh, and as far as the success of the Magyar of that era go, look into how well their "Forradalom" went in '56. 'A beka segge alatt' if memory serves.

"In the REAL world, it is the extent to which an economy is FREE that will determine the degree to which they are successful or not --- as well as the degree to which their societies are fair, open and just."

Indeud, and that describes Norway to a freakin' T, and it shows.

 "But this is all beside the point, as ALL economies are and have been "mixed" (i.e., subject to state control) to some degree or another. But it is the EXTENT to which they have been free from government interference or control that has virtually always determined their prosperity, or the lack of it. Yes, minor and transitory (my new favorite word) exceptions can be found from this trend, but they are only the exceptions that prove the rule."

Heh, that last sentence sure sounds like it says something, but it's really just you and your ilk's wishful thinking again. Trust me, in the highly unlikely event that your incredibly biased and unprecedented 'prediction' comes true, I'll be the first to admit the Scandinavians weren't 'dynamic', or 'free' enough.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 03:02 | 1796131 akak
akak's picture

PS: I think this guy is Norwegian.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 16:12 | 1798422 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

PS: I'm absolutely certain that Akak doesn't know his ass from a teatowel holder, or a hat.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 16:35 | 1798512 akak
akak's picture

Keep digging yourself into that hole of non-credibility that you inhabit, GoinNowhere, you statist bastard and specious asshat troll.  I laugh at your feeble and nonsensical attempts to defend your captors as your saviors.  You really are a willing slave to evil.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 17:04 | 1798586 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Yeah, yeah, we're all too familiar with your delusions, no need at all to keep reinforcing them. It was mildly amusing at first, but... you know. You truly are a willing concubine to your inanity.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 05:02 | 1796191 Rynak
Rynak's picture

The problem with your argument, is that you're ignoring that current implemented forms of government, are exclusively based on a mix of dictatorship and representative democracy.

And pure representative democracy, doesn't even deserve the implication, that it has anything at all to do with demographics.

I.e., whenever some moron argues, that the citizens of a nation, are responsible for what the representatives and the elite does... because they elected them.... i cannot decide if i want to cry, or punch that idiot into the face.

Elections? Fucking elections? Why, the ONLY influence i do have in such societies is:

1. Vote for someone/something, from a selection decided by the elite. And i write "voting for SOMEone/SOMEthing" for a reason - i'm not even voting for that someones/somethings policies, because they can enact whatever policies they want, as opposed to what they implied to support during election

2. Send "pleaseplease!" letters to my representatives - who are under no obligation at all to respect them.

3. Vote with my wallet, by i.e. boycotting some products.... to bad, that i can't survive from nothing, and can only buy from the sellers available. Also too bad, that thanks to the political-economic structure, my wallet never can compete with those holding the most power.

4. Kick physical ass.


So, there you have it.... modern government styles: You choice only matters, if you kick someone in the ass. And even that only counts, if a lot of people do it - else you're just a criminal. Remind me again what was so "free" about that? Remind me again about my "responsibility" for actions not available to me?

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 16:44 | 1798386 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Hey, thanks for the reasoned response Rynak; and what a breath of fresh air in here it is too when compared to the thoughtless, contradictory, vitriolic rote the  'kak incessantly regurgitates and presents as if the conflicted mess is somehow composed of  'the pearls of his paternal wisdom'.

"...are exclusively based on a mix of dictatorship and representative democracy."

Like any complex system, all gov'ts have their problems and inefficiences. Even the Dr.'kak unwittingly acknowledged that to some extent gov't is req'd for a functioning society, inadvertently decimating his pet 'anarcho unicorn fantasy'.  Though I'll wager that he will continue to vehemently argue that only he is privy to the precise dose of gov't req'd, regardless of any successes plainly evident in any country that doesn't fall in line with his exact, self righteously expressed prescription for his utopian delusions. Anything and everything but what the 'kak imagines as perfection will be putatively (Rule34) too big Big BIG! Oh, and every position of every gov't that has ever existed in all of recorded history (excepting Canada and the US 100 years ago,LOL) is, no must be by definition, occupied by socio/psychopaths hell bent on the destruction of the electorate that handed them the mandate.

I repeat:like any complex system involving a vast collection of variables, all gov'ts have their problems and inefficiences

 Norway is no exception in this regard; as imperfect as any other system. Eg. like Canada and others, via their monarchy they still cling to "..outdated imperialistic dogma that perpetuates the economic and social differences... " (MP) in their society. As far as influencing policy and legislation these monarchs are ceremonial and effectively powerless; though if push came to shove in the case of Canada the Queen could technically resume autocratic control of the country (Governor General is 'Head of State'), assuming Canucks would actually allow that. (Canada is much more like an 'oligarchy of elitists and their lawyers', IMO) However, this does not qualify either country as a dictatorship.

"And pure representative democracy, doesn't even deserve the implication, that it has anything at all to do with demographics. I.e., whenever some moron argues, that the citizens of a nation, are responsible for what the representatives and the elite does... because they elected them.... i cannot decide if i want to cry, or punch that idiot into the face." 

It certainly doesn't make for much of an argument.

"1. Vote for someone/something, from a selection decided by the elite. And i write "voting for SOMEone/SOMEthing" for a reason - i'm not even voting for that someones/somethings policies, because they can enact whatever policies they want, as opposed to what they implied to support during election"

To a large degree that isn't the case in a country with a well educated, politically active electorate and transparent gov't that actually adheres to the precepts outlined in its constitution.

"2. Send "pleaseplease!" letters to my representatives - who are under no obligation at all to respect them."

Oh, the obligation to respect them exists all right; doesn't mean they will though... right right right. 

"3. Vote with my wallet, by i.e. boycotting some products.... to bad, that i can't survive from nothing, and can only buy from the sellers available. Also too bad, that thanks to the political-economic structure, my wallet never can compete with those holding the most power."

Actually, that is probably your most powerful avenue of action (peaceful one, anyway); effective in practically any political system. 320 million people with fifty bucks each, acting cohesively, can take down some pretty sizable players should they wish to.

I'm beginning to get the impression that you've confused the political environment you yourself  reside in, which doesn't sound much like much of an actual 'representative democracy' in anything but name, with the system in Scandinavia...


Fri, 10/21/2011 - 16:48 | 1798539 akak
akak's picture

GoinNowhere, you write like an arrogant, know-it-all college freshman who has learned a lot of fancy words, and scattered fragments of ideas and concepts, but lacks the broadened perspective or wisdom to fit them all together into a coherent whole.  Moreover, you need to take a few courses (or at least one) in elementary logic, as you continually seem unable to grasp the basics of logical debate

I have had many equally fruitless arguments with assholes like you both here and elsewhere, and they never amount to more than metaphorically plowing the sea.  You THINK you know so much, and have all the answers, yet your ignorance is abundantly evident for all to see.  But I am glad you at least have so clearly aligned yourself with the statist social and economic paradigm, so that other readers here can thereby automatically dismiss your rants and nonsense as they appear down the road.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 18:12 | 1798698 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Heh, it sure is rich getting educational advice from anyone  like you who would aggressively maintain that Scandinavia is operating a political system akin to Hungary's behind the iron curtain. Not to mention being told your contentions are lacking cogency from someone whose chief method of persuasion consists of " I a 'kak: your argument is invalid, rote, blather, bombast, dither, drivel. I know you are but what am I, I'll see you at the bicycle racks after school, you and how many of you friends, you're a troll etc. etc..."

And IMO anyone with half a brain is more than capable of discerning, on this thread alone, how regularly you contradict yourself and backpedal on your own farfetched,  insipid 'thesis', misnomer the most basic ideas and principles, and attempt to pass off the outdated rote of others as your own. 

Sat, 10/22/2011 - 00:12 | 1799525 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Erm, as much as i woud like to reply with a useful response, the only summary i can reply with is:




Oh and, akak - mea culpa. Sorry, for even having interfered in this at all.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 00:48 | 1803309 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

 You've mistaken the economic/political climate you've allowed to entrench itself in your own country for the prosperous system to which I keep referring. All clear?


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