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Santelli And The November Obamacare 'Referendum'

Tyler Durden's picture


In a brief clip this morning, CNBC's Rick Santelli said a lot in a few words. His critical insight was that today's decision is about process and not preference and that the real decisions will be made in November when it becomes 'the people's choice'. He is a big believer in the 'pragmatic process' we should all enjoy and suggests today's SCOTUS decision (doing what they do best in comprehending the law) should be 'taken with respect' but notes the analogy to Europe:

"You can try to have the mighty above tell the people below how they should live their lives, what they should get, and 'the government big enough to give you everything you want, and', in the words of Thomas Jefferson, 'big enough to take away everything you have.' But what are we left with really? We are left with an issue that should, by all indications be voted on by the American public. No matter how the Supreme Court decision worked out; no matter what the legislative process tells us; no matter how ugly this process was to get passed; in the end, I think it's more than appropriate that this will be, in my opinion, part of the referendum in November as to whether the public wants this or not."



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Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:37 | 2569549 Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture

Look at the taxes under Obamacare. We ARE France on steroids!!!!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:48 | 2569626 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

as a share of the economy, taxes are now the lowest since 1950.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of your ignorance.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:55 | 2569670 HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

OK, smart ass, get up off of the floor and walk. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Any thought that taxes as a share of the economy are so low because HALF THE DAMN COUNTRY doesn't pay any?

That really leaves a burden on the other half...oh, and the deficit, which hurts the overall national debt.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:01 | 2569709 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

HIT PIECE coming re Obamacare on my blog tonight.  Higher taxes, less liberty.  A bad day for America.

This election will test my recent thesis that there is 14 cents worth of difference between the R-Team and the D-Team.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:30 | 2569841 Ceteris paribus
Ceteris paribus's picture

This will all be fixed in November because our masters have told us we can vote for Obama or Rommey, America the free.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:05 | 2569951 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture



If unlimited Obamacare covers people with mental illness, obesity, or STDs 4 life, no one else will ever get an appt. 2 see a doctor.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:13 | 2570046 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

researchers explain that health costs continued to go up over the period in question, and their overall findings are “incompatible with claims that health reform has cut medical bankruptcy filings significantly.


Does forcing you to buy auto insurance lower the cost of insurance?


Healthcare costs is the reason why people didn't buy insurance.


COST is the culprit

  1. produce more doctors (it is a service business, get rid of doctors union)
  2. single payor reduces overhead (merge vets, medicare, medicaid all those systems into one)
  3. force the public to be healthier (smokers, binge drinkers, fatties need to be taxed more to pay their fair share)
  4. limits to what's covered (government should be spending $2M  college scholarships on 110yo granny who is going to die anyway)
Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:14 | 2570065 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

American taxes are about to go Canadian. You don't know what it is to pay taxes until you have experienced the European utopia.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:20 | 2570428 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

New taxes


0.9% increase in Hospital Insurance tax for $250k + income family or $200k individual

40% excise tax on cadillac plans

2.3% tax on imported medical devices

2.5% floor increase to 10% of AGI for medical expense deduction

10% tax on indoor tanning

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 17:32 | 2571243 JeffB
JeffB's picture

and when income taxes were first levied in 1913, the rates were 1% for incomes over $3,000 with a 6% surcharge for those earning over $500,000.

Takeaway: Original tax rates never stay the same.

The camel's nose under the tent isn't really all that big of a deal. Things can get a little crowded, though, when you're sharing your tent with the camel. If some of his friends or family decide to join him, it could even get downright uncomfortable.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:19 | 2570089 Michael
Michael's picture

Hopefully under obama care, black abortions go up from 51% to about 100% and the incidence of Autism goes from 1 in 50 to 100% as well.

People deserve what they get for being so stupid.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:19 | 2570425 Cranios
Cranios's picture

We can vote for Romney or Obama, and the Dems can steal the vote for Obama.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:04 | 2570003 Michael
Michael's picture

I am now most definitely going to vote for Obama in November.

This will help make the impotent USA crash and burn much faster.

The people of the USA needs to be so fucked up the ass there is no more ass skin left on their bottom.

I just thank God so much every day on my knees for the complete and total economic collapse of the USA and the world.

It's the only thing that will solve most of our problems, when everybody gets nothing, NOTHING!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:27 | 2570474 sansnobel
sansnobel's picture

Yep, absolutely.  The something for nothing crowd in this country needs a serious dose of reality.  I can't wait for complete and utter collapse.  The truth in the end will always triumph over these snake oil salesmen politicos.  Ofcourse, when the people come for the culprits they will have already escaped on their private jets to mountain Chalais in Switzerland were they will sip champagne, revel in their smugness and come up with new schemes to deceive mankind. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 22:15 | 2572017 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Federal tax rates are also the lowest they've been in decades, correlating with the fact that the bitching about taxes is at an all-time high.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:55 | 2569674 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:58 | 2569687 MJ
MJ's picture

Theft is ok as long as it's less theft...

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:01 | 2569704 DOT
DOT's picture

I count my State taxes together with the Federal. Unfunded mandates have forced the states to increase taxes. I believe total tax burden to GDP is now about 30 %. Federal burden in 1960 was about 17.5 %.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 17:35 | 2571255 JeffB
JeffB's picture

Of course outright taxes are only 1 of the 3 ways we're funding government spending.

Don't forget all of the borrowing and the money printing.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:01 | 2569710 beentheredonethat
beentheredonethat's picture

you are an idiot- lets just stop spreading this bullshit.- the effective tax rate vs. the "standard" are completely different things. In 1960 the standard rate was 70+%. no one paid this. there were deductions- for example investments were advertised as 10 to 1 or 5 to 1 or 20 to 1 -- in other words, you invested 1 dollar and got a 20 dollar write off on cattle farms for instance (and you did not need to know anything about cattle). so the effective rate was way less. maybe 20% or 30% if you were a dope. no one paid the published rates. thats how the AMT came about - they published a list of I think 50 millionaires who paid no tax - and so congress passed the AMT. Which of course effects 50 millions americans next year. STOP SPREADING THIS BULLSHIT.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:02 | 2569714 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

More telling is Federal spending as a percentage of GDP.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:32 | 2569859 DOT
DOT's picture

Indeed, the burden becomes clear.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:14 | 2569756 rebelscum1967
rebelscum1967's picture

What economy?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:16 | 2569770 Nick Jihad
Nick Jihad's picture

as a share of the economy, taxes are now the lowest since 1950.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of your ignorance.

Deficits are merely taxes deferred.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:34 | 2569864 mraptor
mraptor's picture

~50% dont pay taxes

and then ~50% are on stamp foods... (they intersect)

what this means is there is boatload of ppl that live for free on the back of the others...

Any 1% more tax is unfair, doesnt matter what was the tax 1950 or 500BC..... as long as the majority of the population don't do shit to add to the pie any tax on the rest is stealing.

And btw borrowing is disguised tax (future inflation) too.. so you should summ it up..  Total-tax = todays-tax + borrowing

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:36 | 2569874 narnia
narnia's picture

Federal, state & local governments will spend close to $7.0 trillion this year directly and God knows how much more off-balance sheet & contingent liabilities.  The US spends more per captia than any other country in the history of the world, and this just added a huge burden right on top of that.  

All of this spending is paid for in current or future direct taxation or inflation.  People who don't get that are the ignorant ones.

It's all kind of b.s. anyway.  This ship has long since hit the iceberg.  We're screwed with or without this.  

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:40 | 2569894 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture



Can someone clear this up for me, for example:


Let’s say I work at McDonald’s and I need $50,000 heart surgery. I have no money.


With Obamacare who pays?


Without Obamacare who pays?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:47 | 2569944 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

Regardless of how much m0ney you have or don't - where the hell you gonna find heart surgery for 50K?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 17:38 | 2571264 JeffB
JeffB's picture



Thu, 06/28/2012 - 22:18 | 2572026 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

In Costa Rica, Thailand, Mexico, etc etc.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:49 | 2569948 pacu44
pacu44's picture

Can someone clear this up for me, for example:


Let’s say I work at McDonald’s and I need $50,000 heart surgery. I have no money.


With Obamacare who pays?


Without Obamacare who pays?


How should a Micky D worker needing a surgery be pushed off on me paying for it under any circumstance? I dont even know this guy... Why hold a gun to my head?

If gubment would get out of the medical business, it would not cost as much, that I know...

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 17:46 | 2571286 JeffB
JeffB's picture

"If gubment would get out of the medical business, it would not cost as much, that I know..."


True dat. Everything the government gets involved in goes up in price. Health care... college education.

Health care that isn't covered by medicare, medicaid, health insurance in general has gone down in price...

See lasik surgery, plastic surgery etc.

I recently came across the bill for my birth in the mid '50s. It was a little over $300 and included two weeks in the hospital for my mother and me. The terms were ~ $103 due one month before the expected birth, $103 at birth, and $103 a month after the birth.

Of course they didn't have air conditioning and cable TVs, but that should be an option for people I would think.

Why do wealthy people go on "health vacations" to "3rd world countries" for serious operations even when they may have health insurance coverage here? Supposedly the health care there is better. It's also often significantly cheaper.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:31 | 2570146 Tom Servo
Tom Servo's picture

Scenario 1: you, or nobody.  McDonalds will get a waiver.  McDonalds doesn't offer peons like you health insurance.


Scenario 2: you, or nobody.  McDonalds doesn't offer peons like you health insurance.


I just like to try to step back and take health care and insurance out of the equation. Just try to get a lib to admit that it isn't constitutional to force individuals to enter into contracts with for profit corporations.  Leave other mundane details aside, they always go, BUT WE ALL NEED HEALTH CARE.... that's irrelevant you mindless drone!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:44 | 2569928 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

Dear Assface, What were property taxes in 1950? What were sales tax in 1950? What were state and local taxes in 1950? What were auto reg fees in 1950? What were telephone taxes in 1950?  Oh, never mind, just blow me

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:13 | 2570060 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

Why is that statement always trotted out as a justification to raise taxes? Who cares if "taxes are lowest since XYZ", just because they are doesn't mean we need or want to make them higher.

Here's an idea... you tell us what you would use higher taxes for, and we'll vote on whether that's what we want or not. As a hint, you may not want to tell your constituents how 'ignorant' they are and that you know best when trying to push your agenda through.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:00 | 2569707 battle axe
battle axe's picture

Do not bother me, I have to take my pants down and bend over so that the Federal Govt can reem the shit out of me. Thank you....

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:38 | 2569554 Abner Doon
Abner Doon's picture

Please report on this Zero Hedge.

From letters sent to Michael Mashburn, SEC and Daniel Stefek, FINRA, from Tasha W. Sheehy, Enforcement Attorney, State of North Carolina Secretary of State

I put my career on the line to call them out,
and not one financial blog has put it up
and not one for profit news outlet has touched it.

Please help.




Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:39 | 2569559 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

anyone who thinks that the election is a referendum or that the law will go away is a prime candidate for walking fucktard award. romney is pandering liar. his election would alter this law. besides, there are armed military at intersections all over america who will compel an appropriate vote.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:41 | 2569576 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

There is probably a mandate for the military to patrol our streets.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:12 | 2570055 DOT
DOT's picture

Or private contractors from another country.
Our military must be kept overseas.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:43 | 2569597 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

According to the Constitution, the people do not directly elect the President

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:57 | 2569685 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

The states elect the president.  We have a republic of united states created by the states. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:26 | 2569813 CH1
CH1's picture

We have a republic of united states created by the states.

Well, we did for a few years, anyway.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:53 | 2569979 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

We did. Right up to the war of Northern agression... but not after. We no longer have a republic, either.

I junked ya for being historically illiterate.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:06 | 2569725 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Right, you have to be "chosen" to do that.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:45 | 2569598 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

and sadly, if it is a referendum i think there are enough deadweights around to override the opposition and re-elect the man anyway.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:47 | 2569615 Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

Actually, Romney and the republicans have vowed to repeal the law..The democrats want ti fix it.. The public will vote on the issue in November..If you want the ACA, you will vote democrat..If you want it repealed, you will vote republican..It is that simple...

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:55 | 2569671 Ms. Erable
Ms. Erable's picture

So the Republitards will save us from the Demsheviks? Riiiiiiight...

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:02 | 2569717 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

Repubs won't manage but a half hearted dog and pony attempt at repealing RobomneyCare.  Any "attempt" to kill it will die in the senate.  It's another thing we are people are stuck with till collapse. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:09 | 2569741 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Yes.  And the Tea Party will take a few more seats away from the permanent political class, and gradually restore the Constitution, growing in strength every two years.   Or  the Obama Crime Family will gin up a national crisis that he uses to cancel elections.  Either way the Marxists are doomed. This is not Europe. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:30 | 2570142 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

The Tea Party will gradually restore the Constitution... You mean, like in supporting uber-agents of change candidates like Newt "Moonbase" Gingrich, Rick "Bomb-them-all" Santorum and Mitt "MassachussetsCare" Romney?

Fri, 06/29/2012 - 02:07 | 2572403 LarryDavis
LarryDavis's picture

Fuck the Tea Party. Fuck anyone who has ever prayed to remedy a practical matter. I'm very tired of these assholes. Isn't Rick Santelli a seminal figure in the Tea Party? That says alot about these assholes. Rick Santelli is a charlatan with an iq 3-4 points higher than Pisani(still below 80).

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:51 | 2570284 Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

I don't like Romney or Obama....But that is what the SCOTUS is is a political issue now..If you are for the ACA, vote democrat, if you are against republican...I am non partisan but I suspect. the democrats will be devistated come November and for decades to come..60% according the last poll are against the mandate...It is simple math..

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:56 | 2569677 Hmm...
Hmm...'s picture

If you want the ACA, you will vote democrat..If you want it repealed, you will vote republican..It is that simple...

perhaps.  but the converse is NOT true.  (i.e. voting democrat does not mean that one wants the ACA).

I hate the individual mandate aspect of the ACA.  I find it unconstitutional.  I want the law done away with.  I hate Obama and I hate Romney.  However, of the two, I hate Romney more.  I typically vote for Denis Kucinich every election cycle, at least I did in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2012.  (Voted for Bush in 1992, Clinton in 1996 if that matters).

This is the first year in some time that I might not vote for Kucinich.  Instead, I probably will vote AGAINST Romney by putting a check mark next to Obama.  But if I can stomach it, I do it with a heavy hand and vomit in my mouth. 

But my vote in no way endorses the ACA.

Santelli is talking out his ass.  There is no "people's referendum" on anything this election.  People are split 50/50 on a lot of issues.  I think this is the weakest candidates we've been given in > 100 years.  One candidate will win by default. A conservative voting for Romney will be just as pissed as a lib who votes for Obama.  (newsflash, libs hate Obama... but are afraid of Romney/Bachmann/Santorum).

As for the ACA, hordes of democrats hate it.  They didn't want this.  This is a Republican center-right bill that was rebranded as Obamacare.  But the essential idea (including mandate) came from 1990's Republicans.  The liberal wing of the democrat party wants (and wanted) a Public Health Option which Obama did not support (because he, too, is a center right corporatist President).

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:27 | 2569814 AlamoJack
AlamoJack's picture

Without PAPER BALLOTS it's all bullshite anyway.  Maybe the ANONYMOUS crowd can hack the election.  Yeah, that's the ticket.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:54 | 2569891 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

Both parties are for Obamacare because Healthcare is one of the chosen industries (has high local content and significant barriers to entry) although it's mostly make-work with managing chronic conditions that can better be managed by life style changes. But, a weak charactered population is not up for it.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:23 | 2570098 adr
adr's picture

Kucinich bankrupted Cleveland and turned it into what would have been the poster city for failed government, if it hadn't been for Detroit.

Kucinich stayed in power by giving huge handouts to the welfare class along with Tubby Jones. They both scammed millions off food stamp programs. Those two both worked together to break the mafia control over Cleveland and give it to the black gangsters. From the mid '70s on Leveland turned into a shithole and the ghetto climbed Euclid ave into the great suburbs, destroying them forever. In 1982 you could let your kids play alone in th streets of Cleveland Heights, by 1986 after huge block busting ghetto pushes, financed by the Cleveland Metro Housing Authority, you were lucky if you didn't get shot by. A crack dealer in what used to be middle class white neghborhoods.

Kuni aways claimed he was "For the little guy", but he was really for lining his pockets along wth his associates. Cleveland is right behind Chicago in crony government graft and theft. For votes Kuni created the grand plan of free water and free power for all city of Cleveland residents, who happened to be mostly black, by massively increasing taxes on business. The vacant husk of thousands of warehouses was the result.

But yeah, support that communist turd if you want because he opposed the gulf wars. Kucinich is the ultimate, watch what he does, not what he says guy.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:01 | 2570329 Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

I disagree...there is a referendum...No matter how you look at it, taxes are going up dramatically which directly affects the middle class. What people fail to understand (at this moment..this will change) is that the states do not have to pay for the expansion of Medicare..that means the fed government will have to fund it..This will add 100's of billion to the costs...and that cost comes out of the economy via taxes...If you want one of the largest tax increases in history, vote democrat, if not, vote is a referendum and I think SCOTUS did a good job at leaving it up to the American voter...The ball is in the voters hands...

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:57 | 2569683 Melin
Melin's picture

Are you pulling an MDB? Republicans have "vowed" to repeal the law? 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:26 | 2569811 Nels
Nels's picture

Romney has vowed to 'repeal and replace'.  The weasel word replace means that not much will change in a Romney administration.

Obama will be able to capitalize by saying that maybe the current ACA is bad, but Romney's version will be worse.  Why bother changing from one horse to another midstream, when both are going the same direction?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:29 | 2569827 CH1
CH1's picture

If you want it repealed, you will vote republican

LOL... Puh-LEEZ!

Let's trust the pubs to grow a spine and not cave for the 585th of 585 times?

Who's smoking hopium now?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:25 | 2570108 toady
toady's picture


Now there is a BIG time republican word! They are always "vowing" this and that, vowing not to raise the debt ceiling, vowing not to raise taxes, vowing to shrink government, then turning around and doing the opposite. Hmmm, kinda reminds me of someone ... OH YEAH, the democrats!

Still, ALOT of folks will buy yet another false "vow" .

How can you tell if a politician is lying? Its lips are moving!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:36 | 2570179 akak
akak's picture

We don't need this, or any, law to be repealed.



We can all take action here, if we have the courage to do so, by simply refusing to pay.   If 20 or 50 million Americans refuse to submit to this law, it is null and void by default.

I know that I am going to refuse to submit to this law, as I have vowed from the beginning.  Who is with me?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:53 | 2569637 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

What's the percentage of laws repealed???

Well below 1% I'm sure.

Keep dreaming suckas.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:01 | 2569706 knightowl77
knightowl77's picture

Vote anyway...make him prove he is fucktard....

He says he will repeal it, MAKE HIM DO IT. Hold his feet to the fire or march on Washington if he doesn't.

Hoist em all then on the point of a pitchfork!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:31 | 2569843 AlamoJack
AlamoJack's picture

Screw the CONTRIVED PHUCKING BALLOT.  I'm writing in LINDSEY LOHAN.  At least you know she's drunk or stoned.  I think most of these philandering insider trading politicians are freaking CYBORGS.  I listen to them and I wonder, "Where were you during high school speech class anyway.  Probably in the boys shower.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:40 | 2569895 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

That's right. Robomney-care is here.  The end.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:41 | 2569561 midgetrannyporn
midgetrannyporn's picture

That should be in the editorial page not as a report. Besides, I doubt mittens would sign a repeal. You have no choice comrade.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:17 | 2569775 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Romney will follow the lead of Congress if he wants to suceed.   Otherwise he will get challenged in the next primary. Just think, no more lectures from the Dimwit in Chief.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:31 | 2569844 CH1
CH1's picture

An empty dream, based upon negative evidence....

Step away from the hopium pipe.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:40 | 2569567 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

Where was Santelli when Citizens United came out? 

It was 1000000000000000x's more important, and got 100000000000000000000000000000000x's less coverage?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:47 | 2569613 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

He scared them with "Europe" "Big Government" what more do you want?

oderint dum metuant.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:53 | 2569662 divide_by_zero
divide_by_zero's picture

The CU case just leveled the playing field of free speech between unions and corporations (FWIW I don't agree that either should be allowed free speech as a an individual, they should have ruled neither have a right but that was not the issue). The AZ and ACA cases completely threw the constitution out the window, instead of the sovereign states granting limited power to the Feds, the SCOTUS has ruled unlimited Fed power.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:58 | 2569689 Hmm...
Hmm...'s picture

you have a funny way of using the word "leveled"

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:07 | 2569731 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

Solution -- get rid of corporate taxes and get rid of their ability to fund campaigns.   Taxes should only be applied directly to individuals (voting entities) so they can understand how much they are paying for government and then better decide whether they want more of that government or not.  Burying taxes inside corporations which incorporate them into their product prices, keeps the individual voter in the dark about how much they really pay for taxes.   

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:22 | 2569788 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Dumb question unless you're a progressive. Citizens United was a victory for freedom.  Don.t tread on me.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:40 | 2569568 Hype Alert
Hype Alert's picture

Well, that does it for me.  I'm moving to Greece!!  Let the German's pay, it's the right thing to do!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:41 | 2569571 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Santelli is right.

If you dont like what happened today, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

The founding fathers gave us a Republic whose key officers are elected by popular vote, thus giving us the ability to change our government when it errs or grows disrespectful of the public will.

So talk to your friends, post on the internet, call your Congresscritter, but DO SOMETHING constructive.

Try to win the next election even if its for the lesser evil.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:44 | 2569600 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture


Look up the "common definition."

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:09 | 2569742 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Lol, so if you are drowning in a flood, you would stop trying to swim after how many strokes failed to get you to dry land?

LIFE IS A STRUGGLE. Dont expect anything less and you wont be disappointed.

We have the best form of government to have a fighting chance against the PTB.

If you arent able to suck up the courage and wherewithal to engage in that political struggle then go die in a corner without me or mine.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:05 | 2570028 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Your way or fuck me? Seriously?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:02 | 2570339 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

It is the law of nature; struggle to survive or get out of the way and go die in a corner so the rest of us can get things done.

Fuck you? No, think I'll have to pass on that one, lol.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:15 | 2570399 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Tool, fucking tool. You're not struggling, you're flailing. I reckon if it's any consolation, the "PTB" appreciate your alegiance to their "greatest political mind-fuck" on Earth.

Root for your team, dipshit.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 16:37 | 2570950 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Spastic King, you well named yourself, lol.

Why do you think domestic intelligence often hires provocateurs like you?

Because it works in their favor for hotheads to jump the gun and go postal out of sync with all the others who are upset.

You are the tool, bubba, not those who are using every other means available other than violence.

You can go back to you X-Box game now and pretend to be a revolutionary, lol.

Sensible people do not want civil war and all that other crap. We want change but we would prefer to do it like civilized people and not go to the mattresses.


Oh, and 'flailing'? Lol, no, we are overturning the current society right this very minute. You are just too dull to see it I guess. In 1960 a law like this would have never been openly opposed after three years. This country is far more respectful of personal liberty than it used to be in most respects.


Back in the day, a challene like this one would have been laughed out of court from the git-go.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 16:49 | 2571035 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

I reckon there are those who despise Obma, and hold their noses at Mittens, who would be aghast if anything really changed.

But I think you're just a nutjob.

Hold your flag high and keep the dream alive and keep listening to those voices inside your head - unless they tell you to do something bad to yourself or somebody else.

All the freaky people make the beauty of the world.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 16:58 | 2571086 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Lol, you cant resist dramatic hyperbole, can you?

If you want to have a successful revolution, you have to wait for the right time and that time comes when the government has become so drunken with hubris and power that it begins to trample your average Joe. When that starts even the governments own agents will start to turn against the government.

You go rushing in like some berzerk fool then all you will do is get you and a few other fools killed along with you.

Try to stay calm and encourage others to do the same. Dont trickle your anger out in small doses posteuring on internet forums. Wait for the real thing. This isnt a Nintenda game, dude, this is real life and people actually get killed and maimed in these things and you cant just reload your last save.

Look at the history of successful revolutions and the one thing they all have in common was a long period of grievances that the government ignored and even engaged in provocation over.

Revolution has never been won by keyboard jokeys with delusions of grandeur ranting about waving flags on their monitor and comparing taxation to slavery, lol.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:10 | 2570382 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture

The REAL political fights happen at the local and state level. Get involved there. Get your friends involved there. The transformation occurs from the bottom up. This is what Ron Paul has been stealth advocating.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:09 | 2569736 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

You are missing the simple fact that people are brainwashed by the boob-tube and no longer think for themselves as they are told what to like and do.  The founding fathers didn't imagine that there would be a ubiquitous mind control device pumping single outcome "choice" into their feeble minds that were softened and molded by public education.  Additionally the founding fathers knew that fiat money would be the cause of serious loss of control of the governmental bodies to private interests, thus they put restrictions on money creation and coinage.


The founding fathers would line up most "Americans" today and shoot them for treason.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:26 | 2569812 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Only about a third of colonists actively supported the revolution.  Yet won.  Dig it. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:37 | 2569878 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Thats a very dubious figure.I've seen estimates a lot lower.

However one figure is certain.Only 3% were actively involved.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:46 | 2569938 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

The point is, they won. Dig it.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:12 | 2570054 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

They voted mad old King George out of office? Awesome!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:09 | 2570367 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

What the FF did was out of desperation as the King had already dispatched tens of thousands of troops with the intent of disarming the populace and had occupied the biggest manufacturing base the colonies had at Boston.

Most attempts at revolution, called 'rebellion' are called that because they end badly. Look at histories record of how many revolts, rebellions there have been versus how many successful revolutions.

There have been far more failed remellions than successful revolutions.

Revolution is an act of desperation doomed to fail in the vast majority of cases.

While there are peaceful options they need to be exhausted before resorting to violence.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 17:02 | 2571101 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Only about a third of colonists actively supported the revolution.  Yet won.

More like 40% to 45%


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:15 | 2569765 BurgundianRon
BurgundianRon's picture

You cannot have a 'lesser evil'. There is only good or evil. In the same way you cant be 'less alive' or 'more dead'. - Just sayin

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:56 | 2570309 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

In the abstract, yes, the lesser of two evils is still evil, but in the real world we have to make such decisions daily.

Labor is considered by many to be the lesser of two evils and where would we all be if everyone shared your perspective in regard to labor? lol

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:29 | 2569829 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

The "Founding Fathers" 'gave' nothing.  They took their rights with force.  We will have to do the same, voting will not help you now and saying this is the solution makes you part of the problem.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:59 | 2570328 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

No, I am not a part of the problem, but hotheaded reactions are.

Government agent provacateurs eat people like you for breakfast.

Always go for the ballot box in preference to the bullet box, at least until the ballot box is taken away.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:22 | 2570444 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

How would you even know when it was gone? It's gone now, retard! Dumb fuckers like you "voted"  year after year in the old CCCP - up until the very end! Take the fucking blinders off!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 16:40 | 2570977 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Spastic King, you are so caught up in your own hyperbole you cant even recognise what is reality and what is not.

We DO still have a vote. And we WILL turn this country around. It is happening as we speak.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:34 | 2569863 CH1
CH1's picture


I loved the DO SOMETHING part of your post, but if it involves politics, it's nothing more than working in either the left side or the right side of Massa's field.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:04 | 2570344 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Struggling in the political arena is slavery?

Hmmm, we need to let the NAACP know abou this.  :D

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:40 | 2569573 tamboo
Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:08 | 2569733 DOT
DOT's picture

Would make a great contest for DEFCON. Most votes wins !

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:34 | 2569869 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Paper ballots work.  They can be challenged on site and the count can be done quickly.   

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:42 | 2569579 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

should we have the public vote on banking regulation too?  How about how we run the military?  How about all sorts of things the average joe public DOESNT understand?

Healthcare is a fundemental human right, whats would the vote be on?  should only rich people be allowed to have healthcare?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:43 | 2569596 midgetrannyporn
midgetrannyporn's picture

Interesting. I wonder where the outspoken Santelli stood on the GE bailout?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:37 | 2569882 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

He was very much against it.  You don't know much about Santelli.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:45 | 2569607 pods
pods's picture

So you are saying slavery is a fundamental human right?

If I want you to do something for me that I cannot pay for, I can find a third party to force you to work for me?


Mow my lawn asshole!


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:50 | 2569640 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

wow, I figured it may be too much of a concept for you to handle.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:58 | 2569690 pods
pods's picture

Not really.

You: "Healthcare is fundamental Human Right."

That kind of implies that someone has to CARE for you, does it not?

If it is a fundamental right of mine, my ability to pay does not factor in, right?  It is fundamental to being human.  Not an employed human, rich (or poor) human, but human.

If I have a right to someone else's labor is that not slavery?

I would like an honest answer.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:10 | 2569729 BliptoP3
BliptoP3's picture

An honest answer:  The government is like a fairy godparent - you vote on stuff and then the government gives it to you.   They don't  have a magic wand so much as a magic printer.   Get over 50% of the population to agree you need you lawn mown, and they'll print that right up.  I would start by contacting your congressman.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:18 | 2569777 pods
pods's picture

Sort of agree.  It can only be "printed" when debt is added on the other side of the ledger.  And the interest is taken out of my ass, again.

I do like it when someone argues that someone else has to do anything for them without their consent.  

Income taxes are the same thing.

Someone else decides how much of my labor I may keep. The percentage is not important.  What matters is the power to take a penny of my labor without my consent.

Slavery.  New and improved.  Kinder and gentler. 

Like today's kinder and gentler police state.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:38 | 2569888 Sofa King Confused
Sofa King Confused's picture

I totally agree with you pods.  The reason why it was passed and not being able to opt out is very simple; cuz if that happened everything would be in question.


Medicare and Medicade: (Opt out) I'll probably die before i use it anyway

Social Security: ( Opt Out ) I'd rather have that money in my check and I'll be dead or SS will be by the time I get there

Federal Taxes: ( Opt Out ) They go to the IRS which is a private company like the FED and I can really use the extra money in my paycheck

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:02 | 2570012 BliptoP3
BliptoP3's picture

In all seriousness, I'll disagree with you slightly: When tax money is spent on public goods, it is an appropriate role of government.  But we're  80 years past that point, so yes: public money spent for private goods is just theft.   Why are you still working?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:14 | 2570063 pods
pods's picture

I am working because enough of my labor has not been stolen yet.

I have no problem with tax money being spent on public projects.  As long as those tax monies have been properly collected, ie CONgress is authorized to take them.  The income tax, if not voluntary, is an unapportioned direct tax, and is unconstitutional.  

If we are in fact not functioning under the constitution, then all they need to do is tell us.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 16:46 | 2571025 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

If we are in fact not functioning under the constitution, then all they need to do is tell us.

I think that they have told you that we are not working under the Constitution as you understand it a very long time ago.

If you dont like it either get involved in the advocate your interests in the political system, leave the country or shut the hell up.

All the wannabe revolutionaries that fill these boards are just hilarious. I'll bet most of them havent ever had a single bullet ever fired at them and they wanna go all Simon Bolivar on everyone, lololol.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 17:19 | 2571178 pods
pods's picture

I will just wait for the end of this system, if that is okay with you?

Love how freedom is always entertained, except the freedom for someone else to pose an argument that goes against your beliefs.

Good luck in your system!  Work hard and you may get a seat at the big kid's table.


Fri, 06/29/2012 - 17:17 | 2574725 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Pods, you have every right to say whatever you want, but I was expressing my belief that your whining is counter-productive.

Educate the sheeple, yes, that is needful, but throwing in the towel from dispair is pointless self-destruction.

So I am not asking you to get productive or shut up due to you disagreein with me. Disagree all you want, that is your right, but by the same token I have the right to say that I think you are wasting everyones time with demonizing the government and turning every reversal into a despondent disaster.

Besides this isnt my system; it was put inplace due to the efforts and neglect of my fellow citizens. I have no right to force them to agree with me, and vice-versa. But winning a debate with my fellow citizens sure beats playing 'Bosnia Target Shooting' anyday of the week.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:31 | 2570136 Argonaught
Argonaught's picture

Nope.  It doesn't matter what the money is spent on.  It is the taxation that is the theft.  Most of us can agree that we would trade some of our labor for items that can not be generally procured individually, so we always end up at the "social contract".  Which always gets abused more and more until revolt.  Then back to dark ages.   Then, eventually, a new, better social contract.  The next one will have hard, even limits on taxation, better limits on what Uncle Govvy can spend it on, and very VERY short term limits.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:44 | 2569931 BurgundianRon
BurgundianRon's picture

Honest Answer: in the base sense, you are correct the care provider is the slave because you (master) have the right to his/her labor without regard for exchange in like kind. However, the varied nature of the word care might lead me to believe that this caring human being would be contented in giving away his/her care, receiving nothing in exchange other than self satisfying emotions, to those other humans which need it. When one is doing something to content - it's difficult to see how that might be slavery. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:56 | 2569991 pods
pods's picture

It is slavery because the one providing the service or labor is not, as GWB would say, the decider.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:15 | 2570071 BurgundianRon
BurgundianRon's picture

I must have misunderestimated it! :-)

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:03 | 2570021 BliptoP3
BliptoP3's picture

Please, Keep your stupid religion to yourself.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 16:48 | 2571030 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Good Lordy, I that pods was bad.

Dude, you are delusional.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:31 | 2569846 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I am not a Mormon, but.

One thing I do know as fact,they are the most patriotic,and staunch defenders, of this country compared to any other religious group,and far more aware than the rest of the sheeple about preparedness.

They are preppers as a second nature.

Now it remains to be seen if Romney holds true to the LDS belief system if elected, we shall maybe see.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:42 | 2570233 akak
akak's picture


Now it remains to be seen if Romney holds true to the LDS belief system if elected, we shall maybe see.

I think Romney puts much more faith in his LSD belief system --- lies, sophistry, disinformation.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:51 | 2569645 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

yeah Canada is such a slave factory, what a terrible place with all these people on healthcare and looking at for one another.  How horrible..

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:59 | 2569695 pods
pods's picture

Will you weedwhack my back hill too please?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:00 | 2569698 NumberNone
NumberNone's picture

Oh Canada....Surgery wait times longest in 18 years 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:00 | 2569701 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

When healthcare costs are infinite, we will have ZERO healthcare.  But everyone will be equal right?  Isn't that the most important thing?  Equality?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:36 | 2569875 nantucket
nantucket's picture

not right now at this very instance Crawldaddy, but once the precendet of government having certain powers over the citizens is established, it is almost guaranteed that tyranny/despotism is the end result.  can't you see that?  once the people rely on the government for X, then it expands to Y, and then it morphs into Z and then, get the picture.  It's incrementalism.  Death (of freedom) by a thosand cuts.


This isn't a one-off deal. it's a process.  a long process...but we know where it ends.  5,000 years of recorded human history has shown us 1,000 times over where it ends.


this time is no different. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:58 | 2569996 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

I lived in Canada 23 years.  Their provincial medical plans are nothing like the Orwellian garbage that is Obamacare.  They also understand their much higher taxes are a result of their medical payment system.  The Marxists have lied about that from day one.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:54 | 2569664 Richard Head
Richard Head's picture

A-hole, you don't have a "fundemental human right" to have someone expend their time and/or money to care for you, simply by virtue of being born.  

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:44 | 2569929 Hype Alert
Hype Alert's picture

It's amazing how many people have a difficult time extrapolating this to it's logical conclusion.  Including how this gives someone else the "switch" of not only when it should start, but most importantly, when it will stop.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:52 | 2570282 Ayn NY
Ayn NY's picture

You have two kidneys and I need one, the logical conclusion is that you should be forced to give me one of yours.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:10 | 2569743 DOT
DOT's picture

Doctors should be bred and raised by the State.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:25 | 2569805 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

Ah yes -- the "average joe public is incapable of understanding" important things -- THEREFORE, the government must step in to provide health care, retirement, etc.   This reveals the very low view of people that liberals have -- people can not be allowed or trusted to find their way through life -- they might make bad choices, suffer terrible consequences, or do something the government does not want them to do -- and THERFORE the omnipotent and omniscient government must step in to protect people from themselves.  

This decision opens up endless opportunities for more govenment control / coercion -- how about a $1,000 "penalty" for everyone who does not buy their car from GM (the State has a vested interest in this since they own GM).  Why would that be a bad idea for government??

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:01 | 2570009 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Excellent point, Bob.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 15:25 | 2570462 crkennedymd
crkennedymd's picture

@crawldaddy. Healthcare is a right? Fucking moron. The pursuit of a healthy body may be a right, but assuming the right to the fruits of another's labor is fucking theft. I spent eleven years and $200,000 to earn my MD. I'm nobody's fucking slave. Kiss my educated, indebted ass

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:42 | 2569581 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

You cannot be serious.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:25 | 2569641 oddjob
Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:43 | 2569588 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Why are precious metals going down?  This news is very bullish for higher deficits and more QE.  Gold and silver should be surging on trillions of new spending.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:45 | 2569605 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

what new spending?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:46 | 2569614 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Romney says Obamacare will add trillions to the deficit.  Healthcare spending will surge.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:51 | 2569647 crawldaddy
crawldaddy's picture

and Romney lies about 4 times every minute of every day.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:17 | 2569773 knightowl77
knightowl77's picture

Name his lies from yesterday Clown

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:58 | 2570000 pods
pods's picture

Now this we can agree on, although I would add only when his lips are moving.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 13:02 | 2569711 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

You mean we aren't running a 1.3+ trillion dollar deficit?

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