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The Silent Anschluss: Germany Formally Requests That Greece Hand Over Its Fiscal Independence

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Update 2: the first local headlines are coming in now, from Spiegel: Griechenland soll Kontrolle über Haushalt abgeben (loosely Greece must give up domestic control), and Kathimerini: Germany proposes Greece relinquish some fiscal powers, sources say

Update: Formal Greek annexation order attached.

It was tried previously (several times) under "slightly different" circumstances, and failed. Yet when it comes to taking over a country without spilling even one drop of blood, and converting its citizens into debt slaves, Germany's Merkel may have just succeeded where so many of her predecessors failed. According to a Reuters exclusive, "Germany is pushing for Greece to relinquish control over its budget policy to European institutions  as part of discussions over a second rescue package, a European source told Reuters on Friday." Reuters add: "There are internal discussions within the Euro group and proposals, one of which comes from Germany, on how to constructively treat country aid programs that are continuously off track, whether this can simply be ignored or whether we say that's enough," the source said.' So while the great distraction that is the Charles Dallara "negotiation" with Hedge Funds continues (as its outcome is irrelevant: a Greece default is assured at this point), the real development once again was behind the scenes where Germany was cleanly and clinically taking over Greece. Because while today it is the fiscal apparatus, tomorrow it is the legislative. As for the executive: who cares. At that point Goldman will merely appoint one of its retired partners as Greek president and Greece will become the first 21st century German, pardon, European colony. But at least it will have its precious euro. We can't wait until Greek citizens find out about this quiet coup.

More from Reuters:

The source added that under the proposals European institutions already operating in Greece should be given "certain decision-making powers" over fiscal policy.

 

"This could be carried out even more stringently through external expertise," the source said.

 

The German demands for greater control over Greek budget policy comes amid intense talks to finalize a second 130-billion euro rescue package for Greece, which has repeatedly failed to meet the fiscal targets set out for it by its international lenders.

 

It is likely to spark a strong reaction in Athens ahead of elections expected to take place in April.

"Strong reaction?" Is that the politically correct parlance for "civil war" these days? We must be out of the loop on that one...

The specific language that strips Greece of its sovereignty and which will be plastered over every front page in the Greek media tomorrow:

Budget consolidation has to be put under a strict steering and control system. Given the disappointing compliance so far, Greece has to accept shifting budgetary sovereignty to the European level for a certain period of time. A budget commissioner has to be appointed by the Eurogroup with the task of ensuring budgetary control. He must have the power a) to implement a centralized reporting and surveillance system covering all major blocks of expenditure in the Greek budget, b) to veto decisions not in line with the budgetary targets set by the Troika and c) will be tasked to ensure compliance with the above mentioned rule to prioritize debt service.

 

The new surveillance and institutional approach should be formulated in the MoU as follows: “In the case of non-compliance, confirmed by the ECB, IMF and EU COM, a new budget commissioner appointed by the Eurogroup would help implementing reforms. The commissioner will have broad surveillance competences over public expenditure and a veto right against budget decisions not in line with the set budgetary targets and the rule giving priority to debt service.” Greece has to ensure that the new surveillance mechanism is fully enshrined in national law, preferably through constitutional amendment.

And here is the full formal pre-annexation order:

 

In the meantime, Greeks are already practicing the switchover in the national dance:

Before...

And after.

 


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Fri, 01/27/2012 - 16:41 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

All your budget are belong to Mein Führer.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 16:44 | Link to Comment ACP
ACP's picture

Blitzkrieg!

Vee vill kill za women and rape za horses! Vait...za other way around...

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 16:44 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Ruhr Valley part deux

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 17:02 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Germany essentially has two choices:

 

1)  Give blessing to the ECB to print enough euros to make good on current PIIGSFUK debts and future PIIGSFUK deficit spending (c'mon, does anyone believe PIIGSFUK [PIIGS+UK+France] are really going to employ austerity in real euro terms over anything longer than a year, if at all?), which will devalue the real purchasing power of Germans by a massive amount over a relatively short period of time (as the bazooka solution has to be a quickly deployed one, as in dole the rapidly deteriorating euros out to creditors/bagholders very quickly), or

2) Part ways with with the worst offenders of PIIGSFUK, in an attempt to preserve a smaller, more stable, more sustainable core EU, in which case there will be defaults of the kind that trigger cascading systemic shock events globally.

Option 1 gives Germans a chance to preserve their real purchasing power even if there will be adverse consequences of a different form (there will be adverse consequences regardless as to what path is chosen).

Option 2 crushes Germans and does nothing to fix the core defects that gave rise to the EU crisis, setting the stage for yet another EU crisis in a few short years from now (i.e. kick the can, while making the ultimate outcome far more severe and long-lasting).

 

Hedge accordingly.

 

*You can bet your last bancor that The Bernank, Geithner & Obama are being ordered to pressure Germany to choose option 1, as that's the only way that Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and the other best friends forever of the New York City branch of the Federal Reserve don't have to take big haircuts and aren't put in a worse position vis-a-vis other exposure they have as a result from the EU essentially downsizing.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 17:02 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Two does not exist.

The current US citizen charade would want that the current movement of debt mutualization is done at the advantage of countries like Greece and the rest.

It is not. It is done at the advantage of big players, including of course Germany.

The Germans, like any other US citizens in Europe, know that they have only way to avoid facing the bad side of US citizenism: blobbing up.

Blobbing up has always been the goal from the beginning.

Now, in US citizenism, clearly, it is much easier to monetize fallacy than factual deduction, so US citizens claiming that Germany had some other plan, that the Euro would break up, had the best spot light.

Still...

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 17:10 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

Need to add flaming cheese and breaking plates.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 17:20 | Link to Comment Surly Bear
Surly Bear's picture

German's need veggies, too.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 17:30 | Link to Comment SamAdams1234
SamAdams1234's picture

Really? they did fairly well with Weinersnitzel and spatzel berfore they added a wilted tomato.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 18:29 | Link to Comment The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

 

Get ready Greece for der schnitzelgruben surprise up der tailpipe.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 19:00 | Link to Comment economics1996
economics1996's picture

Hang them high, five at a time.  

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 19:27 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Cue Monty Pythons Greek philosophers vs. German philosophers soccer match!

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 19:36 | Link to Comment Don Birnam
Don Birnam's picture

All together, shout it now --
There's no one who can doubt it now
So let's tell the world about it now
Happy days are here again !

http://www.v-like-vintage.net/uploads/images/Cropped700/00062601.jpg

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 19:45 | Link to Comment smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

bloomberg reported a jeffries downgrade, i think??? along with lay offs

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:58 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

If zees iss true, then we have one of the oldest battle lines re-opened. This is basically a Greco_roman war, with a German proxy. Which were the two fascist states in europe last century? 

And all the little sovereigns have nothing this time around and Rome has Germany and BrrrrrKel and Ze Pope or Il Papas! 

And this time, the Trojan Horse came the other way too. Surely up-side-down times.

Greeked...

ori

watershed-day-may-this-pour-through-a-million-pairs-of-eyes/

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 00:02 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Classic MT...... the archemdian surprise.... :-) Thanks for that.

ori

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:58 | Link to Comment The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

 

"loosely Greece must give up domestic control................."

This is becoming a form of Grecian Formula-16 with Zyklon B.

 

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 09:10 | Link to Comment HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

This is all cute...until the Chinese do the same thing to the Americans.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 20:00 | Link to Comment caconhma
caconhma's picture

Once again (like Hitler and Kaizer), Germany starts a major confrontation in Europe. Once again, Germany will be a boogy-man hated by everyone and fighting a war for Zionist Banking oligarchy for a "New World Order".

Fucking Germans, they just learn nothing from their own history. Looks like once again Germany will be buned in Hell.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 20:20 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

ummm if they won the last time, none of this banking war would be happening

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:22 | Link to Comment Real Money Wins
Real Money Wins's picture

Well, well Merkel is saying it took 67 years but we finally won WWII!!!!!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:11 | Link to Comment palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

The Goldman's of Navarone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpMonrArlHI

So who's playing Niven's character?

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 09:43 | Link to Comment Dugald
Dugald's picture

Basil Fawlty......

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:57 | Link to Comment GenX Investor
GenX Investor's picture

This is what the Greek would like to see in the end...  Thanks Monte Python!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5fGSBsfq8

 

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 10:42 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Please read a little history. The Kaiser was forced into war by the machinations of the French and Russians (with the help of Britain) using the balkans as cover. Hitler went to war to pay back the french for their rape of the reparations and the ruhr. 

History is often written by the winners, but there are other accounts that are often, more reliable in providing a fuller picture. While the Germans are not innocent, they were not the ones who started WWI. 

The Germans understand their history just fine. The publisher of Mein Kampt still refuses to publish that volume in Germany. 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:42 | Link to Comment Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Funny - I was thinking more along the line of their Bring Out Your Dead skit. 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:25 | Link to Comment Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

NO Lube for you

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:44 | Link to Comment ilion
ilion's picture

The real Anschluss is described in this video by Kyle Bass:
http://www.armadamarkets.com/market-info/videos/ 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 18:56 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Two does not exist.

The current US citizen charade would want that the current movement of debt mutualization is done at the advantage of countries like Greece and the rest.

It is not. It is done at the advantage of big players, including of course Germany.

The Germans, like any other US citizens in Europe, know that they have only way to avoid facing the bad side of US citizenism: blobbing up.

Blobbing up has always been the goal from the beginning.

Now, in US citizenism, clearly, it is much easier to monetize fallacy than factual deduction, so US citizens claiming that Germany had some other plan, that the Euro would break up, had the best spot light.

Still...

 

I want whatever AnonymousAsshole is smoking.

Seriously, man, this makes no sense whatsoever.  Are you just a random-word-generating algorithm?  If not, I think you need a transmission service, pronto --- your mental gears are grinding big-time.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 19:16 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

He does seem preoccupied with something doesn't he?

I'm gonna break into a USA! USA! chant everytime I run across him...just to validate his psychosis, its the least I can do ;-)

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 21:35 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

I keep wonderin' whether he/she/it is a really bad AI attempt.  Much-too-much rote out of context blah-blah-blah.

Or maybe he/she/it is ensconsed in the throes of the "Occupy" zone? ?? ???

'sperimentin needed.

- Ned

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 21:50 | Link to Comment Awakened Sheeple
Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:35 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

It was around before OWS...but its definitely AI in a certain sense.

I actually entertained the notion that it was reverse psy-op (to gather up jingoism) but I discarded that after a few exchanges with it...its not an algo IMO.

More than likely a Chinese dishwasher, stuck in Shanghai pissed off for being turned down for a work visa a million times, because he's a fucking nutcase...lol.

I'm goin with that ;-)

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:57 | Link to Comment Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

I'm going with Chinese dishwasher too. Good answer, good answer.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:19 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

goin' with "it"

and, as we all know, we're under constant observation as we post.

- Ned

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:29 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Which makes it all the better...we can lead "it" wherever we wish ;-)

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:37 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Pure delusion.

US citizens are now trapped by their set of beliefs, US citizenism.

They will follow US citizenism, all the other options being too painful for them.

US citizens have built a world of quasi certainty that makes their next moves known to all.

You cant lead me nowhere else than where US citizenism guides you.

And remember, I expect nothing else from a US citizen but to be a US citizen.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 05:48 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Oh my God, this shit is GOLD!

Please, PLEASE AnonymousAsshole, give us more!  You've got me in stitches!

 

You cant lead me nowhere else than where US citizenism guides you.

It just goes to prove the old saying: You can lead an AnonymousAsshole to (rhetorical) slaughter, but you can't make him think.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 08:36 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

USA! USA! USA!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 08:49 | Link to Comment Pope Clement
Pope Clement's picture

I see what you are doing Anony and thanks cuz we are trapped in a dark age of Serf Citizenism and owned by the corporation of the United States rather than free individuals in a true republic...

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:27 | Link to Comment TerraHertz
TerraHertz's picture

With the revelation that the USAF definitely IS funding large scale forum shill operations, complete with software allowing each shill to maintain multiple 'virtual identities', I would not be surprised if there's an option for the software to keep racking up post counts for each virtual identity. By doing exactly what we see here. Random text generated by contextual analysis of the forum. Then when the 'human' wants (ie his talking points sheet tells him) to speak, he can respond through that virtual identity.

So what we see, is a name that mostly talks like a crappy AI, but can respond like a human if questioned. A STUPID, ignorant human, but still...

We're going to have to put up with this shit, until the free forum sites come up with an organized means of flagging posters as paid shills. Something like a public reporting system to each forum (a standard graphic symbol meaning 'this poster is a government/zionist/corporate shill) with a visible 'shill-tag' count next to poster's names. The forums then report suspect poster IPs to a central 'shill database'. Bit like anti-spam defenses. Build up a blacklist of known shill-shed IP ranges, and then forums redirect those posters to some kind of virtual padded room. Where they get to chat all they want with like-minded AI random text generators.

Allowing the rest of us real humans to get on with a civilized discussion.

 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:44 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'm sure Sac & company has a ball logging the IP's for future reference anyways...the better ones are a nice source of amusement. I mean really, Hamy & MDB...lol.

I don't worry about it...it can be a nice pastime just feasting on "our best & brightest" own paranoia ;-)

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:13 | Link to Comment infinity8
infinity8's picture

see something, say something.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:17 | Link to Comment palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

More like a third world moron wannabe who’s plugging away for 4 cents an hour and all the the commandant ass he can suck.
Forget AI or any kind of robots.  Who needs ‘em when you have humans, the cheapest and most easily programmable tool imaginable.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:56 | Link to Comment merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

Robert Anton Wilson: “The most thoroughly and relentlessly Damned, banned, excluded, condemned, forbidden, ostracized, ignored, suppressed, repressed, robbed, brutalized, and defamed of all Damned Things is the individual human being. The social engineers, statisticians, psychologists, sociologists, market researchers, landlords, bureaucrats, captains of industry, bankers, governors, commissars, kings and presidents are perpetually forcing this Damned Thing into carefully prepared blueprints and perpetually irritated that the Damned Thing will not fit into the slot assigned it. The theologians call it a sinner and try to reform it. The governor calls it a criminal and tries to punish it. The psychologist calls it a neurotic and tries to cure it. Still, the Damned Thing will not fit into their slots.”

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:32 | Link to Comment chinaguy
chinaguy's picture

Yeah, you could hire a Chinese worker /w (MB) passable English to insert talking points for about $10/day. Hell, hire three or four & have them each post under 3-4 names a day.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 07:18 | Link to Comment Always Positive
Always Positive's picture

Hey TerraHertz - great idea!

The next step is to transcend this virtual reality, physically round up the 'dissenters' and..well, 'deal' with them. I think you'd be very handy with a spiked baseball bat in a padded cell with a gagged & bound 'shill'. You'd probably get a hard-on whilst beating out some brains.

Why don't you move to Nth Korea where your talents can be put to immediate use?

 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:35 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

My working hypothesis is that this Anonymous Asshole is actually a T-4000 supercyborg sent back in time by the last remnants of the Rothschildian elite in the year 2044 to kill the future leader of the Resistance to oligarchic rule, John Connor, whose political and intellectual awakening was triggered by participation in a ZeroHedge forum discussion on July 21, 2013, regarding the recent assassination of US president Ron Paul.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 21:05 | Link to Comment Whiner
Whiner's picture

"Not dead, just frozen." Parthenon, Acropolis to Anartica. Fourth Reich to Mediterranean. Call El Duche first to negotiate before attacking.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 20:29 | Link to Comment ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I'm with you, akak. What the Sam-hill is "US citizenism"???? Is that a religion where the accolates worship a single U.S. citizen??

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 20:43 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Your guess is as good as mine!

It's like trying to divine meaning from the random babbling of an infant.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:41 | Link to Comment DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

I think he has a suffix addiction

Alex Trebek spent some time at a treatment center in Santa Barbara for something similar

  

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:15 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

"I'll take 'Online Trolls' for $800, Alex"

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:56 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

interesting choice of words, yourself, akak...

as opposed to non-random babbling?

babies are such trolls sometimes!

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:41 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

as opposed to non-random babbling?

Clearly, you did not listen to Obombya's State of the Onion speech this week.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:11 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

L0L!!!  you freakin got that right!

i listened to his first one and decided to stop when i found myself checking the time to see if it was time to turn on the radio for the second.   i went for a walk instead. a long one

this year, i didn't listen or read it even here, but the comments here were +++

+++ tonight, too: we have the old money = debt economic "gospel" coming home to roost, internationally again

if everybody is so erergized about addressing the systemic 'problems' maybe they should address the fuking cause

i've been reading this string for hours and i find it fascinating because nobody has a clue or a plan as to wtf to do about all the "debt" which is getting right up there with the sta-puf marshmallow man in scope, world-wide

i've already said that i thought greece should petition to join the united states as the best solution i could see, here.  fuk the EU!  L0L!!!

this is zH!  we don't let TPTB have a fuking monoply on making up "solutions", here!!!   wheeee!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:21 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Slewie, it is self-evident to me why nobody here on ZH (or anywhere else) has any meaningful plan to deal with the expanding Death Star of worldwide debt: because there is fundamentally nothing that CAN be done about it.  One way or the other --- and there are only two ways here --- the debt will be destroyed through default.  The Powers-that-be can either do it 1) through an official default, which will collapse every fiat currency and the world financial system, or 2) through depreciation of the national fiat currencies involved (the "inflationary" route), which MAY prevent the total destruction of the fiat currencies and financial system.  In either case, the savings, and standards of living, of pretty much everyone in the world are going to be radically diminished or wiped out altogether.  It's really just that simple.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:03 | Link to Comment DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

notice the key difference (aka affected parties) . I wonder which one "they" will choose......

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 10:52 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Akak,

There is a very simple solution to the problem at hand. In one very well coordinated action, you destroy: the menbers of the three branches of the US government (545), the CFR building during the big meeting, the leadership of Britain and Israel and the entire Rothschild family.

Probably 2500 people max and the whole world can go back to being normal.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 13:40 | Link to Comment Diet Coke and F...
Diet Coke and Floozies's picture

Someone else would take there place... So is the nature of humanity... Wouldn't change a thing.

I can appreciate that TPTB were clever enough to use the advantages they had and still have. Most people would. Again human nature.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 14:50 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Spoken like a true sheep. 

Social organization is human nature, the type of organization is not. Otherwise, we wouldn't have all different types. In a moment of liberty, taking the opportunity to create a better organiztion is completely reasonable. Just as the Constitutional Republic was an improvement over monarchy/merchantilism, better alternatives now exist to Constitutional Republics.

The danger resides in "the police power of the State" and the creation of law. Choosing liberty with responsibility over managed control would be a great start.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 16:28 | Link to Comment Diet Coke and F...
Diet Coke and Floozies's picture

Well, good luck with your plan to kill 2500 people then. If executed, I'm sure all will be better in the world. Anything is possible I guess...

IMHO, with true liberty, their are no safety nets; people fear this, so they will organize, as a form of 'social insurance'. It is very likely from that point, misallocations of resources will occur. This is virtually inevitable.

The closest thing I can see that was a successful, large scale sustainable social organization was the native north / south americans pre 1492. They didn't stand a chance against the european social organization behaviour though. The choices we make from resource scarcity ensure human behaviour will oscillate between the various social organizations we have created to distrubute said resources. So culling even the top 10% of the world will, at best, only temporarily change human organization. The power vacuum will fill with the clever and ambitious; the cycle will then continue.

"better alternatives now exist to Constitutional Republics" - Examples please.

"The danger resides in 'the police power of the State' and the creation of law" - So anarchy then? The use of force by the individual for resource allocation and property rights vs the use of force by the state for resource allocation and property rights?

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 16:33 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Liberty doesn't preclude safety nets, just that the funding for the nets be voluntary. If the spending is voluntary, how can there be misallocation of capital? 

You might want to examine the Xeer system. Very successful and if the westerners would butt out, it would remain so. As for the western social organization- you are referring to war and the spread of disease. Hardly a social organization.

A free market assures the best allocation of scarce resources. It is the police power of the state and abuse of law that allows for the misallocation of resources and capital. There is no need to cull anything, we just have to stop allocation by government and return to true free markets. 

The power vacuum as you call it would be local and decentralized which may create local tyrants, but not national nor global ones. Anarchy is quite acceptable as a political/economic system- you merely have to define it- which is the crux of having the liberty to do so. Resource allocation does not have to happen by force. It can occur by contract.

As the existing systems have completely failed, what have we to lose? 

You want to continue a failed paradigm, because you fear the unknown, but the reality is that most of the theory has been established and merely requires the opportunity to proceed. The only losers are the free riders, as they are unable to participate as such in this type of economy- is this the reason for your reluctance?

Try "Anarchy and the Law" by Stringham.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 17:56 | Link to Comment Diet Coke and F...
Diet Coke and Floozies's picture

"Liberty doesn't preclude safety nets, just that the funding for the nets be voluntary. If the spending is voluntary, how can there be misallocation of capital?" - Fair enough.

"examine the Xeer system" - Never heard of it. I look forward to reading about it. Learn something everyday...

"A free market assures the best allocation of scarce resources." - Agreed, but wants are unlimited, unlike the resources of the earth. Once resources start to run out, an individual will do anything to survive, including killing others of its own species.

"police power of the state" is necessary for the protection of individual rights. However, I fully agree that "abuse of law that allows for the misallocation of resources and capital." Esp. when the rule of law is changed or ignored to suit the top.

"There is no need to cull anything" - Your inital comment was to kill 2500 people. You have just done a 180.

If I was a "local tyrant", I would always try to expand my power and influence. Again human nature. The syslem would eventually be infiltrated and evolve to what we have on earth now IMO. Heck, the American constitution is being underminded on a regular basis right now. What started as a decenteralized system became what USA has right now, correct?

"Anarchy is quite acceptable as a political/economic system" - I feel that this is unstable and will (d)evolve to the systems we have today. I just think that on a long enough timeline, corrupt people will rise to the top and help themselves to all the resources they can get. Perhaps I am wrong about its unsustability. "Anarchy and the Law" may help in this regard.

"Resource allocation does not have to happen by force. It can occur by contract." - Agreed. There are more ways as well.

As for your last paragraph, what works on paper may not work in real life. I just don't have faith that any system can withstand infiltration and corruption from within over a long period of time. It sounds too utopian, and fails to account for the nature of the human race. Some people will do ANYTHING to get everything they can, some even just because they can. What TPTB did and currently do is not by accident, it is very cleverly designed that way over the centuries. TPTB accompliments are impressive as most plans do not make it past 3 generations. Rothschilds figured out banking was more important than military might before everyone else. Is that not impressive? Would it not make sense for them to leverage that information? Would you leverage knowledge that would put you ahead of others? Would you not want to maintain you new power and success? Of course you would! So to me, that is impressive. They made wise choices and reaped the reward to our loss. If it wasn't them it would have been someone else.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 18:30 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

The police power of the state is not necessary for the protection of individual rights. Private property rights enforced within a private law system are more than capable and in fact, preferable.

My original remark was a little sarcastic (only a little), even these would fail without a federal state and police power ( for example, the elimination of legal tender laws would constrain all leverage).

You cannot expand your power without a network that centralizes power. If this is not allowed, then your power is limited. That is why the decentralization of power is necessary. 

It is the nature of the human race to be greedy. There is no better control for greed than a free market. Which is why you must start with a baseline that NEVER allows the centralization of power. 

Utopian? That is an easy complaint. It takes the focus off what is very real, everyday: the failure of the existing political/economic systems in place today. If what we have is failure, then we should look to something that can replace it, yes? 

We have the locus of the greatest system for democratization in history- the internet. Leadership can be subject specific. Creation can be industry specific. Private property laws can best regulate the behaviors of bad actors. Free markets best regulate the actions of corporations and free riders. Communities can best provide safety nets. 

Finally, they made wise choices? They made self interested choices. This is normal, however, they profited by creating a parasitic organization with the power to determine winners and losers based on wealth and influence alone. There is little wisdom in actions that place an entire species at risk. Just as there is a lack of responsibility by those that allow them to do it or never speak out. 

Economic tyranny does not impress me, continued success in the face of free markets and real competition does. The TPTB have never accomplished this.

 

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 19:00 | Link to Comment Diet Coke and F...
Diet Coke and Floozies's picture

I did a quick read on Xeer system. Interesting.

"You cannot expand your power without a network that centralizes power. If this is not allowed, then your power is limited. That is why the decentralization of power is necessary. 

It is the nature of the human race to be greedy. There is no better control for greed than a free market. Which is why you must start with a baseline that NEVER allows the centralization of power."

Ok, but what force could perpetually never allow the centralization of power? I just can't see it. If I'm a tyrant, I would find a way around that force via guns, propaganda, infiltration, control the food supply, monopoly, etc. Or a combination of these. Now we are back to square one. May take centuries, but it would happen.

"Finally, they made wise choices? They made self interested choices. This is normal, however, they profited by creating a parasitic organization with the power to determine winners and losers based on wealth and influence alone. There is little wisdom in actions that place an entire species at risk. Just as there is a lack of responsibility by those that allow them to do it or never speak out. 

Economic tyranny does not impress me, continued success in the face of free markets and real competition does. The TPTB have never accomplished this." - Fair enough. Wise choices for themselves indeed, but they didn't start at the top originally. They worked for it in the beginning. That is what I like about that story. A jewler became more powerful than a king by planning well and planning a family legacy. Is that not success?

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 19:52 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

No force necessary, just an enduring contract. If it takes centuries, most tyrants will die long before they complete their task.

Even the Rothcschilds needed the ever hungry and depleted treasuries of warrior nations to build their power and influence. Without these resources, they would have needed to succeed in the market and their power and influence would be continuously contested- creating a limit to their ability to succeed.

It was centralized power that allowed for their ascent. 

Success? That is a subjective measure. Obviously, you value their legacy of slavery,death and destruction. I do not. 

Good night.

 

 

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:14 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Whoa, you certainly are a creatific thinkerizer! :>D

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:52 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

to your 0:21 akak:  vesuvius!

i remember as a child first hearing the term "100 years' war" and thinking:  what?  so, it musta been before i learned the f-word

maybe we're in the 'final phases' of a hundred years' war and we're just starting to perceive that we're about to lose a 100years' war?   L0L!!!   better late than never, huh, pirate?

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:44 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Although your writing is often inventive, I sometimes still wonder if you actually understand Fractional Reserve Banking.

You are quite good at being deceptive.

Try being clear sometime.

Or maybe you forget that most of us seek truth?

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:28 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

well, fuk you, too

wonder about anything you want, just don't shit on slewie while you're doing it, ok?

do you know the difference between fractional reserve banking and:  [debt = money?]

i don't think i said one word about "fractional reserve banking" here, did i? i wasn't talking about fractional reserve banking. really.  i was talking about the false premise that [money = debt].  i was trying to point to the absurdity of debt = money and where it has led us, as a planet

how long have you had this problem with "inventive writers"? dude, you can't understand what i wrote?  and that's slewie's fault?

or are you just another of the toy boys who are perennially anable to come to terms with what the US Constitution says?

the only 'truth' you'll find wandering around w/ yer head up yer ass is your shitty asshole self.  just like 'most of' "us" everywhere

group-think about "truth" is still group-think, but you may have lost the capacity to say "i" and have it mean anything beyond the "normal" illusions;  and be unable to get it back, too, perhaps.  pity

and you "wonder" if slewie understands "fractional reserve banking"? L0L!!!  what a fool!

  1. do you understand that slewie understands that [debt = money] is NOT truth?
  2.  i think you do
  3. i think that fact that [debt = money] is not true very possibly threatens you very deeply
  4. try getting clear sometime
  5. or maybe you forget that slewie could tell the difference between shit and shinola better than the average bear
  • honestly, i truly feel some pity and compassion for you
  • again, how long have you been like this?  if you can start to answer that, maybe you can help yourself out, a little
  • good luck to ya, toy-boy!
  • you can junk me till the day you die and it won't help you one little tiny bit
  • trust me!

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:40 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

i do so hope mr_W2 gives me higher grades for clarity now!

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 00:47 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

WTF are you talking about? Not even useful. At all.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:17 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

What a flibberty-gibbet!  It's like there's an autogyro in yer shirtwaist! :>D

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 07:54 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

maybe that's from riding a schwinn

or from packing this robotic greek sammy for lunch...  ~~~|:< 0)

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 11:34 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

I was a young piglet when this post started ;-) - Ned

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:45 | Link to Comment TerraHertz
TerraHertz's picture

Posting obviously nonsensical garbage text should be an instant IP banning offense. There's no gray area, even humans with very poor English as a second language are _clearly_ human, and _always_ clearly human.

As opposed to a markov random text generator. Google it. These things _always_ generate senseless gibberish.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:49 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

the pi-rat may not cross all the eyes and dot all the teas in china, but I can still get where he's going, grammatically correct or no. A shining eg. of content vs rhetoric. You're the guy that sent Pirsig's motorcycle maintainer into electro shock therapy.

Even if  the 'America, fuck ya' team is bang on and AnAn is a dishwasher; at least he's working. No shame in that.  Hell, it's my understanding that Eric Blair was into scullery for awhile.  And if  AnAn's goal is to sweep  the duped jingoist garbage into a neat stinking little  pile, looking above I'd have to say he's made a fairly decent job of it (with a few exceptions) 'reverse double secret probation psyop' or not. Now if only we could find a dustbin...

OTOH, i have to agree: if there was a point in that comment I missed it past getting the  vague impression of  a perfectly understandable disgust with those dreaming of some sort of American dominated global hegemony, which of course we all know is just plain silly.

 AnAn: wtf is 'blobbing up'? 'Blotting up' you mean?

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:07 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

I would have no problem with this Anonymous character "sweeping jingoistic garbage into a neat stinking pile", as you put it --- in fact, if that were truly what he were doing, or ALL that he were doing in his innumerably similar posts, I would be applauding the loudest.  What I find utterly offensive and revolting, however, is his implicit if not explicit (very hard to know which, given his bizarre use of language) broad-brushing of ALL Americans (and now apparently at least some Europeans) as being equally guilty for the crimes of our increasingly if not all-but unaccountable power elite, as if the mere fact of being a "US Citizen" automatically makes one morally if not practically complicit in the monstrous US neo-imperialism and warmongering, and the equally abominable US financial corruption and repression.

Does he not, or can he not, realize that there are MILLIONS of Americans who are JUST as repulsed by these policies and actions, many of whom are also FIGHTING those policies and actions, some at great expense to their pocketbooks and personal lives?  It demonstrates the most grossly simplistic, intellectually vacuous and morally reprehensible failure of logic to condemn an entire population based on the actions taken by their political leaders.  I mean, do I really even need to argue this point?  Is it not self-evident to ANY rational person that this Anonymous Asshole insults EVERYONE by repeatedly issuing such flippant and repugnant blanket condemnations?

This is why I challenge and attack his posts with such vehemence --- such blind, bigoted prejudice against a single nationality is reflective of the worst attributes of the collectivist insanity that bred Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot.  Are these "opinions" that ANYONE here should honestly be defending?

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:30 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

This is why I challenge and attack his posts with such vehemence --- such blind, bigoted prejudice against a single nationality is reflective of the worst attributes of the collectivist insanity that bred Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot. Are these "opinions" that ANYONE here should honestly be defending?

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This is not what you are doing. And you betrayed yourself.

I made a countless number of times the point that US citizenism is not US citizenship.

US citizenism is the same as Americanism.

US citizenism is not a nationality. It is a state of mind, a doctrine, a set of beliefs.

US citizens('Americans') are the proponents of US citizenism ('Americanism').

Noticeably, would I use Americans to refer to Europeans who are proponents of Americanism, it would be worse.

American Europeans is not satisfying and misleading.

Keep claiming that you defend US of A nationals when I speak of Americans as believers of the set of beliefs known as Americanism.

And you know this because in one of your posts, you claimed that Americanism did not exist and was the product of some leftist european propaganda.

As a US citizen though, your doctrine leads you to dilute your own responsibility into a group and try to expand the base group by claiming that pointing out US citizens, proponents of US citizenism, is the same as pointing out US citizens, holders of US citizenship.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:07 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

When (if) you grow up, and realize that there is no such thing as collective guilt, and can put aside your blind, bigoted hatred of an entire nation of people for the actions of their leaders (as admittedly sociopathic as those leaders are), get back with us --- until then, you will remain one of the offensive, misguided, irrational, truly repugnant posters here, and I will continue to loathe and oppose your savage, hateful diatribes with every fiber of my being. 

Behold the face of collectivist evil.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:15 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

You should not have answered to that post. Stupid move.

It exposed you. Once again.

It wont certainly not prevent you from claiming that US citizenism is the same as US citizenship, even when you have read it is not the same.

But that is duplicity. And US citizens are duplicity.

Collectivism?

Laughable. US citizenism is a set of beliefs. When pointing out some features in a set of beliefs and by then, in the believers, well, it is mere factually based generalization.

Pointing out that Christians/Muslims/Jewish people do believe in one god is not collectivism, it is a totally valid general statement on Christianity and Christians.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 05:34 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

You know, if you are going to attempt to converse with somebody, much less in a language that is clearly not your native tongue, the first thing that any rational person would do would be to NOT make up words, or assign arbitrary meanings to existing words, so as to utterly destroy any possibility of meaningful communication.

Aside from that little linguistic quirk of yours (as annoying and impeding as it is), it is still a fact that you continue to blame ALL Americans for the actions of their leaders, and tar them all with the same unthinking, ignorant, anti-American brush.  You are as bad as Hitler blaming the Jews for all of Germany's ills, or any groupthinking tribal member who instinctively hates every member of his traditional enemy tribe. 

US citizens are now trapped by their set of beliefs, US citizenism.

 

They will follow US citizenism, all the other options being too painful for them.

 

US citizens have built a world of quasi certainty that makes their next moves known to all.

 

And remember, I expect nothing else from a US citizen but to be a US citizen.

 

But that is duplicity. And US citizens are duplicity.

Your own words here damn you as an irrational, anti-American, stereotyping bigot.  Just WHERE in any of the above quotes do you not EXPLICITLY condemn ALL US citizens collectively?  I mean, there is no disputing the obvious here --- you are blasting ALL Americans together.  This is prejudice and collectivist hate, pure and simple.

You have over and over blamed "US Citizens" (which means ALL of them) for just about every ill of the world, you retarded Chinaman, and that is beyond dispute, so I have nothing more to say to you other than that you have my complete and total contempt, and I hate you, and every monster like you.  Yes, I hate YOU --- but I do not therefore hate your fellow Chinese countrymen, as unlike you I am rational, and judge individuals AS individuals, and not as members of monolithic groups that do not in fact exist except in the mind of kneejerk collectivists.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:22 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

The rabbit hole is way deeper than "US/European citizenism"

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:15 | Link to Comment merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

Akak wrote: "...as being equally guilty for the crimes of our increasingly if not all-but unaccountable power elite, as if the mere fact of being a "US Citizen" automatically makes one morally if not practically complicit in the monstrous US neo-imperialism and warmongering, and the equally abominable US financial corruption and repression."

I think you make a good point in insisting there be some further criteria beyond simply 'citizen' or 'resident' in order to share the guilt; in my mind, that distinction is 'tax-payer', as they are the people who do offer material support to the war machine, and they do it with full foreknowledge (if not comprehension) of the atrocities that will ensue on account of their, and everyone's, complicity.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:18 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Hey, made me laugh.

US citizenism is not US citizenship.

US citizenism is what is improperly called Americanism.

But hey, once again, proponents of US citizenism are just that, proponents of US citizenism. They cant admit that US citizenism is different from US citizenship.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:56 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Then WHY do you even use the fucking meaningless phrase "US Citizenism" in the first place, you moral and intellectual cripple?  If you desire to attack the policies of the US federal government, you could do so in perfect unambiguity, much as most of us ZHers do here daily.  But NO, that is not enough for you ---- you want to lay some specious and nonsensical collective guilt on ALL Americans, and so you invent your weasel-words in order to condemn EVERY American as complicit in the crimes of the their (sociopathic) leaders.  You are an intellectual failure.  Should I pity you or hate you?  I think I will do both.

Tell me, do you represent the very best that the Chairman Mao School of Anti-American Internet Trolls has turned out?  Because while you may have received an "A" in Blather and Annoyance, you certainly could not have received better than a "D" in Logic and Rhetoric.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:58 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Save your rage for trav, akak.  At least your interactions with him are entertaining.  And trav is a cool dude.  I can't say the same for what you are responding to above.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 05:15 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Maybe you're right, VV.  I feel like I am trying to converse with a limited and malfunctioning robot --- "I am not programmed to respond in that area ...."

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 09:31 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Pretty much...if it can't explain something it so fervently believes, its not worth the effort to understand it.

I suspect...but can't be sure, because its always so disjointed...at some level its talking about extreme "nationalism" without the indictment of any other national BUT a "US citizen" which makes it a logic fail.

As this would exclude our brave dishwasher' brother (or even itself) from the act of stomping on the Tibetan monks faces or its government manipulating their currency in much the same way Timmah & Ben do or the Chinese government strip mining the globe (in fact or by proxy) for natural resouces.

So, at the end of it, its just a general bashing of "US citizens" trying to impose some elemental guilt trip.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 10:37 | Link to Comment Archduke
Archduke's picture

This is out of the topic at hand, but I like your more precise use of "US Citizen".

There's plenty of North, Central, and South Americans that aren't US citizens.

 

Stratfor's George Friedman argues the duplicty of the US citizen, a national,

vs the American, a constructed ideal of continental and global supremacy.

 

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/geopolitics-united-states-part-1-inevit...

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 11:24 | Link to Comment buckethead
buckethead's picture

 

@merizobeach

Not entirely accurate. Your post fails to recognize the fact that US income taxes (along with other forms of taxation) are coersive acts of confiscation. Resistance is met with superior force at every stage. 

You don't pay, they confiscate/garner/aggressively collect.

You attempt to subvert their collections, find yourself imprisoned.

You attempt to meet their force with force in an attempt to remain free/retain your possessions, they kill you.

Our constitution was designed to prevent this very type of systemic plunder, but we as a citizenry failed to prevent it from happening. 

There is the extent of complicity for the citizenry at large.

I'm happy to help clear this up for you!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 07:47 | Link to Comment Always Positive
Always Positive's picture

It's true, akak, that Anon does take a somewhat broad (and often garbled &  confused) stance against Americans. Unfair? Maybe.

Not all of you on this site for example, hate the Jews, so it's unfair to paint all with the same brush.  But a lot seem to; sometimes the hatred is controlled & contained, sometimes not. Should it not be pointed out, commented upon? Most let such comments go through to the keeper. Maybe that's where Anon is coming from. A comment on the moral turpitude of America/Americans.

In general, Americans do present a large and very slow moving target. Let's face it, you've gone from the leading power on Earth to a Third World food stamp economy VERY rapidly. Your 'Empire' is at an end, after what, 70-odd years?  Wow! What an achievement.

Of course, you blame 'Them', TPTB, the Elites, The Bankers etc etc. Fact is buddy, you've no-one to blame other than yourselves. All of you have permitted, by your action, inaction & indifference to allow America to have become what it is today - a failed state.

Enjoy your inevitable & well deserved demise.

 

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 09:03 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Of course, you blame 'Them', TPTB, the Elites, The Bankers etc etc. Fact is buddy, you've no-one to blame other than yourselves. All of you have permitted, by your action, inaction & indifference to allow America to have become what it is today - a failed state.

My God!  I simply can NOT believe the failure of logic, and the moral degeneracy, of some of you people.

By your insane and perverted reasoning, every Jew killed in Nazi gas chambers fully deserved their fate, because, after all, they were part of the society that "permitted" the Nazis to come to power, and so they equally shared the responsibility for the rise of Hitler.  By the same reasoning, every Negro slave in the Old South deserved their fate, because they were part of the culture that condoned and practiced slavery. 

My mind reels at the sheer depravity of such collectivist moral perversion, and intellectual bankruptcy, that is pawned off as "thinking".  Go ahead, condemn an entire population based on the policies and actions of its leaders, or of SOME of its members.  And when one child in a classroom misbehaves, it is right and proper to punish the whole class too, right?  Because they are all collectively responsible for each other's behavior, right?  Nobody is really to blame, because EVERYONE is always to blame, is that it?

You could not disgust me more.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 11:16 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Ouch! That had to hurt. Well done Akak.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 06:00 | Link to Comment Always Positive
Always Positive's picture

Hey Sean - that all you got? Light-weight.

PS Yep, I feel like akak  thrashed me with a soapy shaving brush. Mmmmm! That was soapy.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 06:06 | Link to Comment Always Positive
Always Positive's picture

Akak… ‘some of you people’? Me, by any chance? Don’t be shy. Say what you mean.

By your insane and perverted reasoning, every Jew killed in Nazi gas chambers fully deserved their fate, because, after all, they were part of the society that "permitted" the Nazis to come to power, and so they equally shared the responsibility for the rise of Hitler.

Dumbo! If they’d taken action (as they WILL THIS TIME) it wouldn’t have happened. What occurred  was horrendous BUT COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED.

Just as if YOU had taken action years ago - instead of being just a KEY BOARD WARRIOR - what is about to happen to America and consequently the World  COULD have been avoided. Too late, because you and the rest  are  cowards who refuses to take responsibility for your own actions/inactions. . It’s all ‘someone else’s fault’. Riiiight.

Listen akak, listen carefully: we are ALL responsible for our present actions and the future consequences of those actions (or non-actions).  Individual. Group. Nation. It’s the Law. Not a popular concept but that *may change in the next 24-36 months.

Don’t slag off at me for intellectual bankruptcy: you may be well intentioned but just don’t have a clue as to reality.

Finally akak, you don’t disgust me, you make me sad..well, more weary at your lack of real knowledge. You have superficial  intelligence but it's gone to waste.

 * No. On reflection it won't change. Most people would - and will - rather die than admit they are responsible for their own fate. That's true ignorance. Ring a bell, aka?

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 14:31 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

are we talkin'bout tyler's manIntheMirror here? 

who is that good-looking, intelligent, suave, urbane, witty hero of truthJustice&l'Ameli-camWay?

...satan???

charlieManson's gonna die w/that swatika tattood on his forehead, others with a number on their armz
"unworthy" to bear debt, unwilling too
free of bankster-judicial "judgment day"
high on a bicycle dead-head
playing games singing songs of the femawemafarms

cali-fuk_u sunshineHot
do you know what your child's thyroid is doing tonight?
but s/he hasn't even been born yet
yeah that one the longest night
about to experience 'pressures'
no concept to help her own birth
about to get a numbered account
for the digitized net worth
+ that bolt of amazingLight

that mirror that man whoDat [say "name"]
attached to that numbered head
is either a packet of soap-like potential
or more likely completely condition-R-ed-dead
L0L!!!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:39 | Link to Comment MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

You guys are sucking all of the air out of the room -- I'm starting to get light-headed.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:47 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

1y.45w.63pp\p

ban the IP?  omg that's huge!

i had a similar "vague impression".  sometimez  people get a few "facts" and then form "conclusions" which are completely illogical, especially when learning about new things

but here we have a complete lack of cogent detail about anything and yet somehow an>>>impression>>>of something>>>perhaps too real for clarity, too:  monet?

this whole landscape is a bit difficult to grasp so maybe the "vague impression" is generated by the surreal, too;  or the surreal conditioning 

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:27 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

At layer 2 (I believe) of TCP (Transport Control Protocol), IP addresses of the sender and receiver of a packet of data is encoded into the packet, so that routers/switchers know where to send the data.  Smart programmers can manipulate these packets and set them up for various purposes, both good and bad.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:15 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

AnAn: wtf is 'blobbing up'? 'Blotting up' you mean?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////

To blob up is expansionist lingo.

It means growing up into a blob.

It is primarily useful when running an extortion business along with the expansion scheme.

Extorters (and some other groups) want to dilute their individuality into the group.

If an extorted retaliates against one extorter, extorters want this move not to target an individual but the group of extorters.

If you retaliate on one extorter, you retaliate on the whole group.

As a consequence, extorters always look for a critical mass in terms of group, they want to grow big enough to force the extorted into obedience.

Europe is on this path.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:56 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

i went back to look at that and that's sorta what i got

"the blob" was a "horror movie"  when i was taken to the movies in a 50's car and given a quarter for the show.  being a blob was its defining characteristic, too, and i guess it was into blobbing, tho i never thought of that way before tonite, but, man, it sure kept getting bigger!

if the ginormous debt's strangling and taking over everything = "the path of blobbing":  well, what the hell,  slewie can live w/ that!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:15 | Link to Comment Return2Sanity
Return2Sanity's picture

 

If you use the Google translator to change Random Babbling into English, you will find that AnAnonymous actually meant:

“Option two is not viable. TPTB in the US would like everyone to think the European bailouts are being done to help Greece.

Not so, the bailouts are only done to keep the big financial players afloat.

The Germans, who have aligned their financial interests with the US, are only willing to assist Greece because of those interests.

The mutual guarantee of debts among European countries has always been the plan. However, it is easier to get the people to tolerate money printing by central banks if they believe it's only being done to help out Greece or to keep the EU from breaking up, so that's the storyline that gets promoted.

However...”

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:54 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Hey nice translation. Well, well well, that's not such a bad comment after all. Now I wonder if any of AnAn's down-thumbers are big enough to admit that, or at least deal with the substance of the comment rather than mercilessly deriding its presentation simply because it seemed like an easy target at time (or, far more likely, they attacked it as belligerent fools will do when something goes over their heads).

Let's watch, but I wouldn't hold my breath...

<crickets>

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:22 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

doesn't look like it so far...

welcome to thezeroZone

BiCheZ!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:32 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Meh, lots of commenters here get "bees in their bonnets" about something.  My pet peeve is Progressive/Socialisism and its faulty logic -- used to get around the logical conclusions that their principles (or lack thereof!) lead the World (usually straight to perdition, kinda like what's happening now!)

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 17:55 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

My pet peeve is people who misnomer ideologies, either deliberately or ignorantly. Especially when they then go on to equate two opposing ones, or draw ridiculous conclusions about another based on some Pavlovian bell being rung, rather than any sort of actual research.

All in all though, I could give a flying fuck about labels, I'm far more interested in what works best for the most.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:47 | Link to Comment optimator
optimator's picture

They can buy Greece, heck they bought East Germany from the Soviet.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:34 | Link to Comment hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

Im starting to understand why Russia resisted.

                 Banks instead of tanks.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 00:58 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"ZH: read ze Germans" TD, are you serious or do you just cater to the tastes of some readers? Are Trichet, Draghi, van Rompoy, Barroso et al. Germans? What's the matter with you?

Is the average American really that baffled by the Current Concert of Europe? Or just plain uncaringly ignorant?

Meanwhile, the big debate around this post is about what US citizenship really means - perhaps this is the reason? Do you have lost the sense of what citizenship means in general? Part of the libertarian culture seems to be centered on a rejection of any form of community and communality anyway... Very little of this here in Europe, I can tell you...

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:00 | Link to Comment palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

"Part of the libertarian culture seems to be centered on a rejection of any form of community and communality anyway... Very little of this here in Europe, I can tell you..." [Emphasis mine]

I think you meant 'collectivization' and yeah...fuck yeah!

And 'Ze Germans', apart from the obvious suggestion that the ECB is the German Central Bank, is most probably a nod to the movie Snatch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oK_trZhVdk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqvqW2tjG4I&feature=related

You should get out more..maybe a walk with your dag

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 05:03 | Link to Comment hourglass86
hourglass86's picture

Zero Hedge of course doesnt mean the German citizens who are innocent and have to suffer under Merkels shadowy government. Dont forget that ECB is actually Bundesbank...

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 09:57 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Part of the libertarian culture seems to be centered on a rejection of any form of community and communality anyway... "

Not at all.

There are many Libertarians who post inside the virtual ZH community. They also live outside it and I would venture to say there is zero chance that they don't share the same thoughts and opinions in the real world they express here.

They do however, stridently object to the "community" telling them to STFU, become absorbed into the Borg "collective" and pay progressively for the imposed "privilege".

"Very little of this here in Europe, I can tell you..."

And how is that workin out for you Borg collective types? ;-)

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 00:55 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

They do however, stridently object to the "community" telling them to STFU, become absorbed into the Borg "collective" and pay progressively for the imposed "privilege"

What twaddle. You idiots who constantly agree with this ironic Babbitt are sure useful.

Sincerely, I hope you all get what you're asking for and there comes a day that the moment you leave your driveway you're on a toll road, paying for breathable air and sunlight. I'm sure the rest of the world will be happy to accomodate.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 01:14 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

There are those who are born with an innate and instinctive need to question, to challenge, to understand, and to defy injustice and conformity.  Then there are those who are born to naturally follow, to conform, to serve, to kneel, to blindly accept, to never question authority or "truth" as it is unthinkingly handed to them.

You are clearly in the latter camp.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 02:04 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Yeah yeah, I don't question anything, I just follow. It must be so because I disagree with akak and his ilk's ill conceived pipedream. Again, I sincerely hope that you get what you're asking for in your lifetime. Who knows, in a short time the rest of the world may be more than willing to accomodate. The only breathable air you'll be able to find will say "made in china" on the bottle; after all, there's no such thing as 'public property' in akak-land. Just imagine: all of your libraries filled to the brim with books... from Oprah's best-seller-to-be list. Ah the joys of anything and everything being a priori privately owned.

You lot are so fucked.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 01:45 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

They do however, stridently object to the "community" telling them to STFU, become absorbed into the Borg "collective" and pay progressively for the imposed "privilege".

Good grief, what utter twaddle. You idiots who keep applauding this ironic Babbitt sure are useful. I sincerely hope you get what you are asking for, and there comes a day that the moment you walk out your door you're on a toll road, paying for breathable air and sunlight.

"And how is that workin out for you Borg collective types? ;-)" Once again implying every last nation/group/people in 'Europe' represent

a) some sort of singleminded biomechanoid

b) the same sinking boat politically, fiscally and culturally

Meanwhile, the truth says otherwise, so many different ways. Here, allow me to show you the only one that carries any weight with the "I'm all right so fuck all the rest"  crowd:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/may/27/debt-deficit-oecd-countries-data

Norway tops that list. And they don't even have a 'Patriot Act' to S them the FU.

mwen knows this, I can personally guarantee you that he's seen this, but when confronted with it he and his fluffers stuff their fingers in their ears and scream like  two year olds:

"The Stars at night, are big and bright!" <clap clap clap clap>

Because facts are only valid if they support their myopic world view, expect a slough of bullshit 'Exceptionalism' rationalizations in 3, 2, 1... 

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 02:24 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

I truly hate you and your disingenuous bullshit.

It is funny how you just LOVE to parade your HIGHLY anomalous example of Norway as some ideal beacon of statist permanence.  The fact is, you utterly worthless statist piece of crap, your beloved Norway can ONLY sustain such levels of so-called "social spending" because of its vast (but quickly shrinking) pool of North Sea oil --- once that source of wealth is gone, let us just see how well Norway does in maintaining its bloated, cradle-to-grave, one-size-fits-all welfare state. 

Like every other statist, you cannot argue without taking a highly selective and blinkered vantage point, and pointing to the motes in your opponents eyes while ignoring the beams in your own.  Your precious Norway's welfare state is just as doomed as the welfare/warfare state of the USA, and for the exact same reasons: because it is unsustainable, and because it violates fundemental human freedom and liberty.

 

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 04:38 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"I truly hate you and your disingenuous bullshit." 

Well, that's a step up from wishing that I would die I suppose, we must be making some progress. Thanks for dialing it back a bit...or maybe you still feel it, but you just don't want it on record?

Norway is one example.  A good one. All your wishful thinking hasn't made their country fail yet, call me when it does.

Otherwise all that you wrote was "quack quack quack quack quack quack".... and yes, I am being dismissive, because we've been over this a few times now, but you're not getting it.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 04:43 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"freedom and liberty"? My silly borg brain thought they were the same? ;-)

How much is statist for you? Where is the line?
To put it differently: what would a model libertarian state be taxing and how much?

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 06:13 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

A model libertarian state, I suppose, might not BE a state, at least as states are commonly known today.  But in any event, I would have to say it would be taxing not at all, as all taxation is coercive and therefore morally repulsive and unacceptable. 

Is it due to historical precedent, or intellectual inertia, or what, that so many people --- the vast majority of people --- just assume that some level of coercion MUST exist within a society?  Have you EVER questioned that premise?

 

And as for you, GoinNowhere, yes, of course you are dismissive --- because you have an utterly closed mind, and refuse to question your lifelong statist conditioning and assumptions; and that is why I am in turn so dismissive of you. 

But let me leave you with this situation to ponder: I have known a number of people, and read of many, many more, who were initially statist in their political orientation, but who eventually learned about and accepted the principles of liberty and of a voluntary action-based society, as opposed to the traditional statist, coercive model; I have "converted" at least two such people (both after several years of discussion and debate) myself.  However, I have NEVER known nor read of ANYONE who, once having grasped and adopted the libertarian position, was thereafter ever swayed back to the statist paradigm. While there may be a tiny handful of such people, they can be nothing more than that --- a tiny, insignificant handful.  Now please explain that moral and intellectual dynamic to me, if you possibly can, and how such a dynamic is not reflective of general enlightenment instead of just a casual or shallow shifting of opinion.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 06:21 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I mulled quite a time over the question - including as you rightly point out, questioning the premise. I have a counterargument to this: cities. Any substantial density of population automatically generates a human requirement for some order - more order than in less densily populated, since the coordination necessary for waste disposal, transport, fair commerce and just security in general is higher, this in a small medieval city in Tuscany as much as in N.Y. Up to now, this has generated since millennia some kind of communal funding.

Coercion? The city dweller steps in the morning out of his door and wants "someone else" to have done some homework for him - kept the street on his way to work clean and safe, guaranteed that the goods he buyes on his way are not sold by a known crook, etc. So he expects "someone else" to have applied coercion "to someone else" even before the morning breaks. Be it the known Shitter-on-the-street or the Seller-of-spoiled-meat been thrown out of the city - he can't know his whole environment, you see? You can't have a "naturally trustworthy environment" in a city, too many people, and this counting only the locals, not the passing-throughs. And so the city-dweller, the classical citizen, is somewhat willing to endure/endorse the funding of this communal effort, either trough fees, city gates tolls, funds stolen trough war, or, gasp! taxes.

The higher the density of population, the higher this communal requirement is.

This explains, by the way, some part of the red/blue politics in the US - I say some part because the transportation system changes the perspection of your political environment, and in the US there are some very peculiar mixes.

So my question: can pure libertarian principles be applied to let's say NY or Amsterdam? Probably yes, but only by doing some compromises and forsaking some of the pure-but-inapplicable parts, like the no-coertion-no-regulations-at-all-costs meme. And historically with the rise of semi-statist groups, like the ancient guilds. Or the modern multi-national-corporations.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 06:52 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Ghordius, I absolutely agree with you about cities, and city dwellers, requiring a higher or deeper level of "order" to maintain their dense and qualitatively different and more complex social and physical environment --- I have, in fact, lived both in a densely-packed city, a suburban setting, and a much more isolated rural setting, so I think I have some feel for the fundamental differences between each environment.

Where I guess I differ with you would be in the mechanics of how that order is obtained or maintained.  You seem to implicitly if not explicitly equate order with coercive governance, whereas I believe that is a false premise.  Order can equally be maintained through voluntary cooperation and interaction, at least when such order is desired and demanded by a sufficiently large number or percentage of people.  I still fail to grasp why coercion is required at almost any level of the process, such as taxation, as such coercion cannot produce any more funds than already pre-exist within the private economy to begin with. 

You stated:

The city dweller steps in the morning out of his door and wants "someone else" to have done some homework for him - kept the street on his way to work clean and safe, guaranteed that the goods he buyes on his way are not sold by a known crook, etc. So he expects "someone else" to have applied coercion "to someone else" even before the morning breaks

But again, the city dweller has a need or a desire to have the streets cleaned, or to have the neighborhood patrolled, or to have his trash picked up, why must such services be funded through coercive taxation?  Why not let him pay for those services he demands or requires, and not pay for those which somebody else might want but which he does not?  That is possibly one of the reasons that first turned me against the statist model: the "one size fits all" mentality which I utterly despise, as I myself have so often in my life been the one who did not want what most others wanted, or who wanted what most others did not.

And you are correct, it does appear that cities tend to be the hotbeds of the most active (I would say virulent) statist policies and politics.  To be honest, I have come to almost loathe large cities, and city dwellers, for exactly that reason, and sometimes can't help but feel that the USA would be a vastly freer place if both the East and West Coasts just fell into the sea.  But my feeling is that such rampant statism is so disproportionately represented in the large cities because power-seeking opportunists are able to capitalize on the social and environmental stresses in cities to enhance that power, and the laws that support that power, in a similar manner to how the neocon warmongers and neo-imperialists in the USA use the threat of terrorism, or the occasional terrorist attack, to justify (rationalize) the expansion of  their own power and their twisted, militaristic agendas.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 06:33 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

akak, I am not being dismissive of libertarianism - and I have always hated total statism, in the form of Communism, enough to have done some courier runs for the intelligence against the USSR. If you relly want to place me in a diagram, I'd be a Centrist with strong leanings for more personal and economic freedom. Personal freedom should end, always, only where the freedom of the next person begins.

but getting rid of total statism, enduring some statism or advocating the total stop on any form of organized communal effort are points on a long, long line. while I agree that When In Doubt, Better Start With The Total Freedom Position is good, you do have to somehow be also willing to accept and tolerate that there are statists, in various degrees... ;-)

does this make me a "mindless borg", as mnwn was suggesting?

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 07:06 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Ghordius, based on our dialogue here (I must admit I cannot remember having interacted with you here in the past), you strike me as FAR from "Borg-like", and I have enjoyed your posts and our discussion, even if we have a far amount of political ground between us.  Nothing you have written has frustrated or infuriated me, in any way, in the manner that a certain small handful of posters here often manage to do.  I know I can lose my cool here at times, but that only happens when I am faced with a particularly close-minded, arrogant and/or dishonest poster, NONE of which I have seen in you.

And for the record, there is of course no monolithic, universally agree-upon, rigidly enforced set of positions within the libertarian movement in the first place.  Honest people of good faith can and do disagree with each other while believing that each upholds the true pro-liberty position ---- the question of abortion is a particularly thorny example.  But it still amazes me how such disagreements are for the most part relative quibbles compared to the often heated and constantly shifting opinions and positions taken within either (or any) section of the typical left-right political paradigm, which always seemed flawed and hopelessly limited to me anyway --- but I recognized, from my first dawning political awareness, that I was neither "conservative" nor "liberal" nor "moderate", and only a while later discovered that there was in fact a label and a position for what I believed in; it just happened not to fall on the left-right line.

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 06:21 | Link to Comment Archduke
Archduke's picture

there's plenty of oil-rich banana republics that are failed states.

it's a good thing that norway choses to manage its wealth better.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 19:22 | Link to Comment ffart
ffart's picture

Hey, I looked at what you said crooked eyed and it kind of made sense. Too bad it'll probably go on until after I'm dead instead of just falling apart in a huge flaming shitheap. Also, I'm curious now if you can quantify what a "US citizen" is. 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 21:53 | Link to Comment HarryHaller
HarryHaller's picture

I just looked at AnAnonymous' post real hard and started squinting... and... NO SHIT! THE PICTURE STARTED POPPING OUT ALL 3-D!!!

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:39 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Well, don't keep us in suspense --- I am DYING to know what the 3-D image was!

 

(Please don't tell me that it was Jesus on the side of a rusty refrigerator.)

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 20:42 | Link to Comment Wipeout2097
Wipeout2097's picture

Oh, everyone is rating down that post from AnAnonymous? Hit a nerve, rednecks?

 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 21:56 | Link to Comment HarryHaller
HarryHaller's picture

You should have seen some of his posts about property rights.  Much more coherent, but just as outrageous.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:32 | Link to Comment perchprism
perchprism's picture

 

Dude, what are you talking about?   Hit a nerve?   Yeah, it hit a nerve, my optic nerve, trying to figure out what the hell he was babbling about!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:24 | Link to Comment sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

You must be living in the same crackhouse as AA if you understood that rant

Go back to the Puffington Ho's and stick your head back up that rich old hag's vagina.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 22:00 | Link to Comment old naughty
old naughty's picture

AnA, Still... But...

crosssing the oceans, we add JUS to the PIIGSFUK.

Merging of a few corporations, no big deal.

It is peaceful.

Greece becomes the craddle of de-civilization!?

 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:58 | Link to Comment Monedas
Monedas's picture

The last time I tried to monetize my phallus....the scam didn´t work ! I had to pay for my pleasure like everyone else !  Monedas  2012  Just another blobb story !

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 17:20 | Link to Comment macholatte
macholatte's picture

Is it the ECB that's doing the printing or the FED?

One way or the other, the American tax payer is going to get it up the ass on this. Today they're using Greek olive oil for that slippery feel. Tomorrow it might be Mateus or Eiswein or Grappa. My question is this, is it still beastiality if it's with brain dead sheeple or would that be necrophelia?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfyn-mkvbx4&feature=related 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 18:49 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Whatever choices "Germany" has don't seem to involve Germans. The German public have paid 71 billion Euros more Tax than anticipated but rather than using this to reduce German Budget Deficits or produce promised Tax Cuts it will be used for Euro Bailout....so German taxpayers are paying extra taxes for Greece etc. They are being mortgaged through the ECB and pay the largest sums into the EU Budget.......meanwhile they are evicting people from apartments, closing libraries, shutting down public facilities- and watch Greeks paying no taxes retire at 50 and unmarried daughters of the deceased get State Pensions.  Too many people write on this blog as if 80 million Germans have any say in their country - they have about as much as they had in 1938

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 20:34 | Link to Comment margaris
margaris's picture

what I dont get is, why do you humanize the germans but in the same time demonize the greeks?

Its the people on both sides who are completely fucked.

What you say about the germans is true, but in the same time you use the same old stupid lies about the greeks...

Dont play into the hands of the elite...they want you to blame the people... when in reality you should blame the banks and the governments only.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 23:50 | Link to Comment TerraHertz
TerraHertz's picture

Hear hear!

But don't forget the owners. The Rothschilds, Committee of 300, Bilderbergers, etc.

Stringing them up, maybe less than 1000, would make a huge difference to the world. Might not even be necessary to work down through the bankers and politicians.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 01:22 | Link to Comment sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

The Germans are productive and work hard for their lifestyle and retirement. The greeks not so much

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:58 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

 

Either you're a bald chested liar or just an useful idiot. 

"Since the crisis in Greece has hit the headlines there have appeared in the...media many stories about how Greece has too many civil servants, how the working week is very short, how people retire early on fat pensions, and so on, as if this were the cause of the crisis. Facts and figures, however, can be very stubborn things and they tell a completely different story.

.. Let us look at some facts. According to Eurostat, Greek workers work on average longer hours than the rest of Europeans. They work a 42-hour week, while the average working week in the 27 member states of the EU is 40.3 hours and within in the “Eurozone” it is 40 hours. So that is myth number one dispelled.

... according to Eurostat, Greece also has the most underpaid private sector employees compared to the rest of the “Eurozone”. In Greece, the average gross monthly wage, including social security and taxes, is 803 euros [about £700 or US$1063], while the lowest gross salary in, for example, Ireland is 1300 euros, in France 1250 euros and in the Netherlands 1400 euros. So myth number two doesn’t stand up to any serious analysis of the real figures.

Another idea being bandied about is that if it were not for the EU and the IMF stepping in and imposing strict measures, the Greeks would have happily continued to live on ever-increasing wages. However, according to the Labour Institution of the GSEE [the Greek general confederation of private sector unions], the austerity programmes already imposed by recent governments in Greece even before the current crisis had erupted had already cut the real average wage in the private sector to 1984 levels.

What about the age of retirement and pension levels? If we were to believe the... media Greeks live in a kind of workers’ paradise, where they can all retire early and nice big pensions. Again, facts and figures are stubborn things and they give a completely different picture. The average age of retirement in Greece is 61.4 years, a little higher than the European average of 61.1 years.

And what about these fat Greek pensions? According to the GSEE Labour Institution, the average pension in Greece is 750 euros per months [£650 pounds or US$990], while in Spain this figure reaches 950 euros, in Ireland 1700 euros, in Belgium 2800 euros and in the Netherlands 3200 euros. Moreover, this figure was calculated before the implementation of the new government measures, which increase the age of retirement from 65 to 67 years while at the same time cutting pensions by 30 to 50%.

Furthermore, according to the annual report of the joint GSEE-ADEDY trade union confederations on the economy and employment levels in 2009, of the current four and a half million labour force, more than a million work without any social security or other forms of legal protection. According to the report of the Commission for Social Security, established by the Greek Ministry of Labour, this figure reaches 30% of the overall workforce, while in the rest of the EU the percentage of workers in these conditions are only between 5 and 10% of the total.

And whose fault is that? Contributions are supposed to be calculated by the bosses, who pay a part themselves and the remainder is paid by the workers out of their wages. But that would mean declaring the workers legally and paying taxes on the profits made. The bosses prefer to hire a sizeable number of workers illegally, in the “black economy”, and thus save on both taxes due to the state and contributions. If the bosses had paid all taxes due in recent years, and if they had paid what they are supposed to pay into social security funds, the situation would not be anywhere as bad as it is today. It is the Greek capitalists and the foreign investors who have profited from this situation. But who are they blaming? The Greek workers and poor, of course!

On top of all this, in Greece there is also the phenomenon of around 300,000 “false self-employed workers”. These are workers who have in reality been forced to set themselves up as self-employed. In reality they work for a boss who can freely assign the manner, the time, the place of work, and the working conditions and thus this form of working is essentially employment by a boss, but with the added advantage that he can sack them whenever he wants, as formally he is the workers’ “client”. Bosses prefer this method of employment because these workers are not treated legally as employees; they don’t have the same legal rights as the rest of the working class, such as monthly salaries, paid holidays, etc. Employers can fire them freely, even without any compensation. We must also add to the list the 200,000 “part-time” employees, most of whom work full-time but are being paid half-time.

In the smear campaign, there have been many reports concerning the supposedly “excessive” number of civil servants in Greece. According to reports of the ILO (International Labour Organization), civil servants in Greece represent 22.3% of the total workforce, while in France the percentage is 30%, in Sweden 34%, in the Netherlands 27%, in the UK 20% and finally, in Germany 14%. So we can see that Greece is actually below the average. The most important fact, however, that has to be borne in mind is that 300,000 of the public sector employees are working under temporary contracts, which means they have far lower wages and much fewer rights.

Instead of civil servants’ wages going up in recent years, we have seen the opposite phenomenon. As a result of the constant cuts carried out since 1990, according to an ADEDY report [the civil servants trade union confederation], the total real income of civil servants has fallen by 30%. During recent years, governments have preferred to grant “allowances” to civil servants instead of real wage increases. These allowances have neither been included in the annual pay rises nor are they taken into account when calculating pension levels upon retirement.

The...propaganda also continues to attacking the so-called “13th and 14th month’s salary”, in an attempt to create the impression that Greek workers enjoy higher wages than their European counterparts. In reality, these extra “salaries” are bonuses for Christmas (the 13th salary), Easter and allowances (14th salary), which were given separately as a method of fragmenting total annual income, in order to facilitate commercial and tourist growth during “peak periods” (i.e. holiday periods), in a country whose economy is based mainly on commerce and tourism. With the new recent measures taken by the government, civil servants and pensioners lose both of these salaries. What must also be noted is that all the wage levels, all the facts and figures about the Greek workers’ wages listed above include these extra “salaries”.

The myth of the “opulent” Greek workers is ultimately destroyed if we look at the massive increase in the cost of living in Greece. While the wages and salaries are among the lowest in the Eurozone, the prices of basic goods keep soaring. Let us take a look at a few examples. In Greece a packet of cereals costs on average 2.86 euros, while the same packet costs 1.89 euros in the UK (51% cheaper than in Greece) and in France 2.25 euros (27% cheaper). Greeks buy a toothbrush for 3.74 euros while in the UK the same toothbrush is sold for 2.46 euros (52% cheaper). A pack of soft drinks that costs 3.1 euros in Greece, costs 2.76 in Belgium, 2.3 in France and 2.68 in UK. The most prominent examples are a cup of coffee or tea: in Greece the average price is between 3 and 3.5 euros, more than twice the average in most European countries.

Of course, during the same period, there are some Greeks that could be accused of living in opulence, indeed at record levels, compared to both Europe and globally. But these are not to be found among the Greek working class. During the first half of the past decade Greek capitalists were constantly in the three top places in the league table of profitability globally, while Greek bankers even now are enjoying the highest rates of interest in Europe. This is not by chance. Their profits have been based on the fact that they had at their disposal a workforce that has been on some of the lowest wages in Europe. Added to that they had a sizeable section of this workforce employed in the “black economy”, where they were able to save huge sums on taxes and social security contributions.

The smear campaign of the...press throughout Europe is thus based on nothing but lies. "

Which you are either blithely or wilfully propagating, asshole.

Get your tongue out of Lllllloyd's ass ol' Tzu; dogs do that. You're not a dog, are you Tzu? And while you're at it put some clothes on for fuck's sake.

"Before ze Germans..."

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:06 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Useless.

US citizens want to see the current crisis resolution as primarily benefitial to Greeks and done at the expense of Germans.

US citizens are propagandists. Propagandists do not use facts to adjust to reality but as material to produce propaganda.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:33 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

The post above yours had reason and was well written.  Per usual, your comment = shit.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 05:15 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

hey, Vic!  great new look!  but the "old" was also +bold+

A2 seems to be running the multidimensional mulitiplex of meandering meanings, symbolically, tonight, eh? 

you just getting home?  doesn't sound like you got laid...

ps:  i thought A2 agreed w/ G_F's post & the "useless" was implying that such info is wasted on the ameliquanz who have been brainwashed into junking such ideas...

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 05:20 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

slewie you are one of my favorite people on this site.  I always listen to what you have to say. 

Back in the day, I listened to what every commenter on ZH had to say...now it's a matter of cutting through the noise.

OT but on topic: I used to get my panties in a bunch over Oh Regional Indian pimping his shitty blog.  Buddy I heard you the first 100 times, I know what your website address is.

Then I realized: a) ORI's a nice guy and b) his passion for pimping his blog is the same as my passion for hating on people who try and disrupt ZH.  We all gotta live what we love!

Keep up the good work slewie.

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 05:30 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Interesting response VV.

Slewie is definitely .... unique.  I can't say I could mistake his style of writing for ANYONE else's, LOL!

Do purposeful disrupters here enrage you as much as they do me?  I find such worthless turds as despicable as those who willfully propagate dishonest, pro-Establishment disinformation and propaganda, such as some of the former rabidly anti-gold trolls such as JohnnyBravo and MethMan.  "Only $5 to dig from the ground!", ROFLMAO!!

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 05:50 | Link to Comment Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

I see trolls like JohnnyBravo and MethMan as a benefit to this site b/c they get people talking about precious metals and what real money is.  Getting these thoughts on peoples' brains/tounges/fingers is a good thing.

Things like AnAnonymous enrage me.  They don't have a point and they don't stimulate debate - they are just meant to distract.

Contrast A2 with your other mortal enemies: trav or RobotTrader.  At least trav and RT make good points, even if you disagree with them.  We all can learn a thing or two from those guys. 

Yet if we have to listen to AnAnonymous, we will just be sucked into this vortex.  It's deliberate nonsense.  Whoever is writing those comments is a despciable human being. 

Sat, 01/28/2012 - 06:09 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

In hindsight, I can agree with you to a point about the trolls like MethMan and JohnnyBravo, as endlessly irritating and infuriating as they were at the time.  But this AA is a whore of a different color.

You know, it is interesting, I just happened to think back on two of the very worst online trolls I have ever encountered, each in a different forum than this one, and one of which utterly destroyed the forum in question due to the spineless moderation refusing to take action until the damage had long been done.  In both cases, the trolls had a weird, disjointed, semi-autistic manner of response that reminds me EXACTLY of this AA character --- writing in disconnected sentences that often did not quite logically relate to each other, or to the preceding post, but always in a highly antagonistic and blindly repetitious manner.  

Could it be that such trolls are really not people at all, but merely programs purposely designed to disrupt and derail anti-Establishment online discussion?  Both prior forums in which I noted this behavior were hardly similar or related to this one, and were based on particular topics other than finance, yet all three maintain a consistent anti-Establishment bias.  Could this kind of trolling actually be an attack by TPTB?  I am not the first one by any means to entertain every sort of "conspiracy theory", but the similarities are downright creepy.

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