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Sometimes "No" Means Exactly That

Tyler Durden's picture


From Mark Grant, author of Out of the Box

Sometimes "No" Means Exactly That

I was interviewed last night on BBC radio. The questions were good and the newsman was knowledgeable. The concentration was on Greece and Spain and as I detailed the real debt to GDP ratios for the two countries which included all of their liabilities and not just the ones that Europe wants to count the whoosh of breath could be heard across the Atlantic. I am afraid I startled the poor fellow as I explained that this was not my opinion nor was it a particularly complex matter past finding the data which requires some hours of digging around in Eurostat and the Bank for International Settlements data bases. Then it is just simple addition and the division by the official GDP for each country and you arrive at the conclusion. What is so eye opening then is the real number and this is why, of course, that these nations are in trouble as various liabilities turn from contingent to current as the economic crisis deepens. It should come as no surprise to the knowledgeable but to those that have long believed the official debt to GDP ratios put out by the European Union; the actual explanation and the dawning of what it means always seems to provoke a certain gasping of breath.

I do want to address one thing this morning that has been on my mind. I am not nor have I ever called for Armageddon or the end of the world. I find these kind of statements, by anyone, to be quite irresponsible and mostly self-aggrandizing. The world will pick itself up one way or the another and solutions will be found albeit quite painful ones for Europe I am afraid but there will ultimately be solutions. Over my many years on Wall Street I have seen one soothsayer after another rise and fall and then try to repeat the experience with the next Big Call. This is not what I do nor do I find any appeal in this kind of behavior at all. My commentary is certainly unique as it is almost totally directed at keeping you out of trouble and it is the rare moment when I suggest something of interest. I learned long, long ago the great and terrible secret that if you can avoid losing money that you are way ahead of the Great Game and better placed than your competitors.   This is why Grant’s first ten Rules are the first one reiterated another nine times, “Preservation of Capital” which comes first and foremost and is a gift that just keeps giving if you get it right.

Difficult Times

As it dawns upon the world that Ms. Merkel means exactly what she says and is not going to back down you may expect a quite negative reaction in the equity markets and a widening of spreads for some risk assets along with a strengthening of the Dollar. I am talking about the “Trend” here and not some trading strategy for today’s business. Germany is not going to flinch and cannot both due to local politics and to the now obvious fact that Germany has just about reached the limits of what she is financially able to do with a $3.2 trillion economy. To put it quite simply; they have run out of excess cash and more European contributions are only going to weaken the balance sheet of the nation and seriously imperil Germany’s financial condition. I say, one more time, Germany is not going to roll over and all of the pan European schemes brought forward by the bureaucrats and the poorer nations are not going to go anywhere. There is one novel possibility here and that is that the Germans, like the British, may opt out. Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, Finland et al may just say, “Fine, go ahead if you wish to have Eurobonds and the like but we will not guarantee them.” All plans do not need to have an either/or solution and this may well be Germany’s position in the end which would place the periphery nations and France in quite an interesting, if unenviable, place.

“So do we pass the ghosts that haunt us later in our lives; they sit undramatically by the roadside like poor beggars, and we see them only from the corners of our eyes, if we see them at all. The idea that they have been waiting there for us rarely if ever crosses our minds. Yet they do wait, and when we have passed, they gather up their bundles of memory and fall in behind, treading in our footsteps and catching up, little by little.”


                       -Stephen King

Investing in Difficult Times

First you want to have a healthy position in Treasuries as the safe haven bet for the world as things begin to run askew and get worse. The Emerging Markets will get seriously hurt as the European banks funded these countries and these banks are now drawing in their horns and returning to their own home turf not just as a result of Basel III but as a result of their balance sheets, so full of fluff and tomfoolery, run up against the reality of their asset bases and cumulative loans no matter how Europe allows them to be categorized. Loans that aren’t paying and Real Estate securitizations that aren’t paying take the same bite whether you call them roses or daffodils or you claim their mark-to-market worth is some fantasy number concocted by the banks and approved by the central bank of any given nation. Many of the European banks have hit the wall now and are standing there staring at the tiles. With the few exceptions I would not want to be the holder of European bank obligations at this time.  Neither do I advise to be the owner of most of the European sovereigns; first as connected to their banks which are three times the size of the sovereign countries of the EU-17 but also because their real debt to GDP ratios are so far into the red that whatever solutions are found, and printing money will not help as there is plenty of liquidity in the world and the real issue is solvency, so that any grand liquidity play will not do much good past the shortest of terms. In fact, the liquidity play has run out in my estimation and now the hard choices, the unpleasant choices, are all that remain and they will be painful; any of them.

To capture any sort of yield is now a painful affair. The corporate debt that is deemed worthy and safe is trading within basis points of Treasuries and the spread is so insignificant that these names have become proxies for Treasuries and hold now, in my opinion, very little value. There is a tendency in the markets to regard the financials with one viewpoint as categorized in one basket. I do not share this view. The major European banks and the major American banks are now two totally separate categorizations in my view. It can be said that they are all banks but the leverage, the financial accountability and the basis for investment is the separation of the Earth from Mars now. For yield I would look at the senior debt and perhaps some hybrids/trups of the major American banks because they are not going anywhere and the United States does have the wherewithal to make quite sure of that. We are in a financial crisis no doubt and I expect a world-wide recession by the fourth quarter as caused by the antics of Europe and long experience dictates that you want to be at the top of the capital structure, not in equities or preferreds during this kind of cycle but if yield is high on your agenda then I would take a look at senior debt of the American financials which would be both the banks and some of the insurance companies. Choose carefully, be cautious, but at current spreads there is value in this sector in my opinion. Remember that dividends can come and go and that the dividends for Preferreds can be waved by the gesture of hands at some Board meeting but senior debt defines whether a company is still in existence and is far safer than other securities further down in the capital structure. In general the marks-to-market may decline but the senior financial debt will pay and there are not many good choices to get any sort of yield now.

In the Next Days

Germany will not back-up. This summit will prove to be quite contentious as the beggars want to be the choosers and that is not the way the world works. Hopes will get dashed and reality will invoke its presence and the platitudes of the last thirteen years since the EU was formed will run head on into the unavailability of funds and shockwaves will reverberate across the Continent. That is my prediction. Then Greece will beg and plead and perform its ritual dance but this time, after the Troika has looked at the progress of Greece and found it severely wanting; there will be no more money and it is even dubious that there will be any meaningful extensions. Spain will also dance the dance of the alms seekers and money will be given, virtually exhausting the availability of the EFSF funds which were pledged and are about to become a matter of payment $425 billion which will now be on the table for Greece, Portugal, Ireland and now Spain so that pledged liabilities become current liabilities and cash on the barrelhead is quite a different matter than promises to pay; as we all know.

Patience, patience; we are getting down to it and while the road has been long and the twists have been many and varied in the final analysis it will be the actual amount of the available capital that will answer the long awaited question of when this all ends. I submit that this Summit will offer all of us a “Moment” and that will be when Germany and the rest just say “No;” and then the tide turns, the water begins to pour out and realization, like the morning sun, dawns.

“I feel them steal softly upon my thoughts, pattering gently like drops of rain against my window of thought. And so I lay, wandering the long halls of my thoughts, allowing the shades of memory to slip quietly through my mind, remembering starlight and shadows, days of refulgent glory and nights of moonless pitch, and I allow the needle of the tiny compass inside me to swing wildly… First towards the bright dawn of the morrow…then towards the long night behind me: and I think, and I wonder… When Fate comes to collect one of her sons… which way will the compass lie?”


                              -Joshua Azevedo


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Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:12 | 2567802 battle axe
battle axe's picture


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:14 | 2567812 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Oh come on know how much I luv you!!!!


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:50 | 2567913 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

I'll tell my wife we're going to divorce next month. Promise....


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:59 | 2567936 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

But, sweetie, you partied down with the rent money and you called me a Nazi when I said the kids need shoes.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:38 | 2568070 Stock Tips Inve...
Stock Tips Investment's picture

Thanks for the post, which I think is very good and timely. The general opinion in Germany is that this country should not expose its economy to high levels of risk. Obviously the economy is the most solid alemna Europe. But it is also true that shares the same problems as the rest of their neighbors. It is a highly indebted country with a large fiscal imbalance and poor economic growth. The international community still does not want to look at this situation. But the Germans are aware that their economic situation is fragile. From now on we will see the alemnes saying "NO" to everything they can.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:15 | 2567814 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Maybe the PIIGS and a couple of others are the 57 states Obummer was talkin' about.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:02 | 2567941 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Don't forget Cyprus and Slovenia, where they speak Austrian.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:17 | 2567982 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Shush, lower your voice. They know it, but they are sensitive about it

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:16 | 2567815 michigan independant
michigan independant's picture

"Ich tu dir weh?"

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:17 | 2567817 q99x2
q99x2's picture

England took up finance and Germany technology. The Brits need to get rid of Queeny and go poof as well when Germany takes a hike.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:10 | 2567964 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Britannia cannot rule the waves without the Queen or Abu Charles.  Even Maxwell Smart likes the Queen.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:19 | 2567994 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Only because of Margaret Thatcher who destroyed manufacturing simply to destroy Unions

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:57 | 2568148 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Not so, she believed deeeeeeeeeply in Oligarchy rule in Europe, and despised the welfare state: "like my dear friend Ronny we hate those socialists and LOVE Pinochet!"

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:33 | 2568045 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

We need to get rid of the current parliament and reinstate true constitutional monarchy founded in Magan Carta and the Bill of RIghts as we had in the past, electing a proper king on the throne who is true to his oath of office and having a House of Lords that is actually one of lords, and not of hysterical females and ennobled monkeys.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:49 | 2568123 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:05 | 2568181 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

And what is inherently more correct in your own crypto-Marxian twaddle you peddle here from day to day besides your own subjective inclinations, eh, that you would scoff at me? Sod off, you emasculated frog.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:56 | 2568141 falak pema
falak pema's picture

more stale porridge; lay it on thick! Dieu et mon droit; honni soit qui mal y pense. Cassoulet et bouillabaise learnt from the french. Maybe the frogs can trade you the Count of Paris for victoria beckham and the spice girls.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:12 | 2568246 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

I see I've picked up a stalker in the racial bastard who has gotten it into his head that he is a European - hence his fanatical desire for his multicultural European state, lacking any real identity, that is identity of the blood - biological identity - of his own.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:17 | 2568290 falak pema
falak pema's picture

when you post racism you will find your antithesis here. No skin off my nose. If your bile stays as vile as your stenchy breath. I don't stalk I walk in the open, and I talk straight.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:35 | 2568483 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

That is only to be expected; that with your being a racial bastard you must resort to the dominant moral discourse on the 'evil' of 'racism' to establish your own worth to yourself, as though you weren't quite sure of it; much like the Christian engages in apologetics.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:48 | 2568639 falak pema
falak pema's picture

while you're at it why don't you condone the Holocaust and we'll shake on a "seig heil" from your aryan perspective of knights of the shitty garter that lost their marbles at the table of human rights. You must love that Norwegian marvel called Anders Breivik and his last Templar stand. Come on say it out loud and we'll know you don't just spout John Bull stout, you also believe in all-out racial rout. My worth is timeless as its anchored in greek legend and logic; it knows no country, race or creed. Just good chardonnay.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:53 | 2568690 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

My worth is timeless as its anchored in greek legend and logic; it knows no country, race or creed.

What blathering bullshit. You contradict your absurd assertion with the very word with which you qualify legend and logic: Greek.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 11:16 | 2568921 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Nope the Iliad was not logic it was legend but a beautiful tale like the Odyssey, with many moral messages. Logic came later. So don't bend reality to fit your mindset. We learnt as much if not more from legend than from logic. That's Greek history and its mythlogical construct.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 11:07 | 2568784 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

while you're at it why don't you condone the Holocaust and we'll shake on a "seig heil"

Godwin's law is verified once more.

from your aryan perspective of knights of the shitty garter that lost their marbles at the table of human rights.

Human rights being an intellectual invention, I fail to see how rejecting them in ones own moral paradigm implies some kind of mental illness.

You must love that Norwegian marvel called Anders Breivik and his last Templar stand.

Is this what passes for psychological insight in your mind?

Come on say it out loud and we'll know you don't just spout John Bull stout, you also believe in all-out racial rout.

Are your rhymes supposed to be cute? You're projecting again. You're the one who is calling for genocide, and setting the stage for ethnic conflict, in your cries for a multicultural Europe, which will end in the same morass of indistinct, cultureless, historyless brown Fellahin as has every other empire before it. Vienna and Florence will become as Giza and Memphis: the Europe of tomorrow is the Egypt of today.



Thu, 06/28/2012 - 11:11 | 2568874 falak pema
falak pema's picture

say what you have to say, don't walk sideways you're playing that bogeyman game and its sham from square one. Stand up man and don't box at shadows. 

Multicultural europe is a reality and I didn't create it. Now you have to live with it or its ethnic cleansing time. Stand up! Don't act the Nazis who blamed the Jews and Crystal night. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:26 | 2567821 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

NADA = goldilocksCrisisTM "resolution"

i put that up yesterday

nice to see markG is paying attention

for a change

aaaand it looks like risk0ff as moDebt may be shying away from 2moochDebt at the coltillion

in unrelated news, if anyone wishes to read an excellent piece about the politics of fundamentalist v liberal Islam The Democratic Party Decides Not to Take Part in Libya's Forthcoming Elections

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:36 | 2567870 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture


somebody upset we didn't get QEIII again, yesterday?  L0L!!!

here's another interesting piece for the zH anti-intellectuals who follow mark's sophomoric ploddings

Libya: Armed Forces, ICRC Sign Agreement

the RedCross nannies are goin in and teach the libyan military how to be proper goonies!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:22 | 2567830 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

What's the "or else" again? "opting out"? "copping out." "copping a plea." "pleading the fifth"? I mean SO WHAT?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:22 | 2567833 morning_glory
morning_glory's picture

Willst du bis zum Tod, der scheide
sie lieben auch in schlechten Tagen


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:25 | 2567841 bdc63
bdc63's picture

Tyler's I have a special request:  could you please start putting Mark Grant's name in the title of his articles so that I don't have to waste my time clicking on them anymore? ... It would probably inprove his ratings as well 'cause everytime I see his name it's an automatic '1 star' from me.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:26 | 2567842 KNiCKER
KNiCKER's picture

As a Dutch citizen, I genuinly hope that we opt out together with the Germans and a few others... Let them fix their shit in the coming 10 to 15 years and then we'll talk again (or go to war earlier for that matter, and that's my biggest fear. It's like the 30's all over again)

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:32 | 2567858 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Another Dutch citizen is hoping for a banking collapse. The freak show must end.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:38 | 2567876 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



....and they're laughing their asses off in Iceland.


Is that another banker I see? Throw his ass in jail too!


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:48 | 2567895 KNiCKER
KNiCKER's picture

We should take Iceland for an example as those Eurocrat Fascists indeed!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:40 | 2568081 OttoMBMP
OttoMBMP's picture

So NL and GER with aligned interests this time. Cool.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:33 | 2567863 machineh
machineh's picture

Yes, an autarkic trend is apparent, and not just in Europe.

In South America, Unasur (with about the same population as the EU) is committed to a common passport and a common currency for its dozen members by 2019. 

With the lesson learned from the euro (a common currency doesn't work without fiscal integration), Unasur members must realize that a common South American currency is a pipe dream.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:39 | 2567868 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

That seems to be a logical solution - let the stronger countries form a super-Euro and the remaining countries can stay in the Euro and issue alll the euro bonds they want.  Otherwise, Germany and Holland will go broke carrying debts of the profligate nations.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:20 | 2567995 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Hey Duch boy, your ass ain't pristine either. Just sayin'

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:50 | 2568125 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Please describe the war scenario that you fear? Which countries?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:29 | 2567850 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

worst article ever.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:41 | 2567880 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



The Bankers Local Union 201 approves this message.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:06 | 2567953 bdc63
bdc63's picture

plus one for using the word "banker" and "union" in the same sentence ...

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:30 | 2567856 JohnKozac
JohnKozac's picture

Collapse of Currency a 'Very Likely Scenario'

Investment experts at Deutsche Bank now feel that a collapse of the common currency is "a very likely scenario." German companies are preparing themselves for the possibility that their business contacts in Madrid and Barcelona could soon be paying with pesetas again. And in Italy, former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is thinking of running a new election campaign, possibly this year, on a return-to-the-lira platform.

Nothing seems impossible anymore, not even a scenario in which all members of the currency zone dust off their old coins and bills -- bidding farewell to the euro, and instead welcoming back the guilder, deutsche mark and drachma.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:16 | 2567981 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Slowly, then suddenly.  Stock up on tobacco and rolling papers.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:35 | 2568060 eclectic syncretist
eclectic syncretist's picture

The bankers want to issue bonds that are guaranteed by German taxpayers, which is bullshit.  If the bankers really wanted to issue bonds bad enough, they would issue them with no guarantees of repayment, but solely based on mutual trust.  And that my friend, they will never do. 

Merkel should grow a pair and put the ball right back in their court.  Why should the German taxpayers backstop the banksters ongoing game of raping them.  The idea is ludicrous.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:35 | 2567865 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture



Well...we're talking about politicians in a FIAT currency system. They ALWAYS find the money, somewhere..unexplicably..mysteriously

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:47 | 2567896 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture


they'll find "the money" to keep the checks in the mail and kick the can

real drama eh?

meanwhile the "markets" will continue to remain relatively full of "money invested" and there will continue be little near-random "waves" across the surface of the money pond or pool

systemic stability has been achieved for the time being and they ain't gonna pull the rug out from under their own fuking bankstering system again this week as perhaps a zombie or two gets something besides moMoney for its pig-man

trust me

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:42 | 2567874 Ol Man
Ol Man's picture

"First you want to have a healthy position in Treasuries as the safe haven bet for the world as things begin to run askew and get worse...."

Because the Treasury BuBBLe  can only get bigger!!! Right?!?!?


"What is so eye opening then is the real number and this is why, of course, that these nations are in trouble as various liabilities turn from contingent to current as the economic crisis deepens..."

And they will all come back to reality except the biggest one (the US), Right?!?!?



Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:49 | 2567908 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

That is what I was thinking.  However, given the fact that any previous attempts to predict anything in the "markets" have been dead wrong (and why I just play the spreads the tylers point out or do my own homework on solid innovative dividend paying companies and buy PMs when they are cheap - like the mid 90's 2001, and 2009) you might be suprised.  Saying the treasury bubble can't get any bigger is like saying that the "average" person can not possibly get any more stupid.  I would definitely take the other side of that trade. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:55 | 2567928 Ol Man
Ol Man's picture

Oh I think it can get a little bigger, though with real yields swinging into the negative territory there isn't much room, but sooner (maybe) or later (can't be avoided forever) it is gonna burst...

The graveyards are filled with indispensible people... and economists...


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:09 | 2567962 AUD
AUD's picture

You might be surprised at just how irrational human history's biggest credit bubble can get.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:11 | 2567965 falak pema
falak pema's picture

very difficult to be an economist in the mist of a heady roller coaster run that fogs your eyes and takes your breath away. These guys are just hanging in there trying to make sense out of wild compass-onomics; it would be comical if it weren't astronomical in fallout pain. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:26 | 2568014 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Yeah.  Remember how the Maginot Line saved France.  I'm betting on bullion and miners.  But I'm just a dumb truck driver and retired cut block gorby.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:41 | 2567883 Nachdenken
Nachdenken's picture

A political / German No against schemes of Eurocrats for life whose exorbitant salaries and pensions depend on European Union contributions - tough call. 

Angela Merkel is in a corner, but she has switched unpredictably in the last two years on domestic policy.   Germany has the least pain with a No, so too the "northern" Eurozone nations. 

Your fat tail conclusion ... the trades opening tomorrow - lots of wet trousers.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:43 | 2567887 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

US citizen Merkel is one of the most vocal when it comes to demand more European integration.

One could wonder how this qualifies as rejecting the pan European project.

Struggle for power going on in Europe. All are trying to show who's the boss alright.

Cheap propaganda to claim it means that Merkel does not favour pan European project.

She is a US citizen after all.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:47 | 2567897 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Make you a deal.....give us back Merkel.....and we'll give you Obama.


We'll even throw in his extra cost.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:57 | 2567931 Nachdenken
Nachdenken's picture

What would that solve ?  The teleprompter might swing the deal tough.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:16 | 2567980 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Well....we're not sure what the teleprompter is going to say but it's a package deal. We want that teleprompter gone.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:15 | 2567979 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

AnAnonymous, stuck in a rut, said:

US citizen Merkel is one of the most vocal when it comes to demand more European integration.

Here we go again.

She is a US citizen after all.

No, no she is not. A US citizen is one who holds US citizenship.

But hey, your mental infirmation provides entertainment after all.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:43 | 2568092 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

Word games. You know exactly what he means.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:11 | 2568174 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Hey Stooge - you obviously went to school somewhere in the dismal mid-west.  According to the Oxford English Dictionary, you are wrong about a/an historic.  The fact that you are so adamant makes you kind of look like a pedantic and in your case, foul-mouthed, bumkin.

If horrific was pronounced ‘orrific’ and historic was pronounced ‘istoric’ then it would be appropriate to refer to ‘an istoric occasion’ or ‘an orrific accident’.

BTWstooge - you are misquoting.  I did not write 'an historical'.  And stupid shit??? you do seem to have some behavioral / socialization issues?

And here you play around with AA again.  Very entertaining /not.  Why not get a room and get it out of your system?

2548346 TheFourthStooge-ing

Thank you. So many stupid fucks never paid attention during second grade to simple rules of english grammar. As a result, they hear other dumbshits saying "an historical" and, because they're dumbshits, they ape the same behavior.

I never heard anyone saying "an historical" until sometime in the mid to late 1980s. It was retarded then and it's retarded now. The difference now is that so many dumbshits have been mimicking this idiocy for the last quarter century that most Americans (who have no clue at all about the workings of their own fucking language) say it, without knowing why, because they believe it is correct.

Very entertaining.  I'm happy I finally get to meet [virtually] a real grammarian like you stooge.  Please share some more of your simple rules of wisdom.  Perhaps they'll be equally entertaining?? And where did you say you learned all this wisdom?  The great state of Ohio I think it was?  Well ... say no more stooge ... Ohio, well known, the world over for it's important grammar instruction as well as Porkopolis and the flaming Cayahoga River.

All hail the Flaming Cayahoga!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:09 | 2569319 akak
akak's picture

So you are caught in an obvious, yet minor, grammatical error, and you give us a 500 word ad hominem exposition attacking FourthStoogeing, the essence of which is his damnation for living in Ohio?  One postively trembles at the hideous sight of the poor strawman thus hung, drawn and quartered.

PS:  Thank you for completely wasting approximately 90 seconds of my life.

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 23:51 | 2582458 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

AKAK - Why do you ignore the OED and still claim you are right?  You are the one caught in the error unless you think are a bigger, better authority that the OED.  

Let me ask you, is this really necessary? So many stupid fucks never paid attention during second grade to simple rules of english

Let me answer for you.  No, it is not.  Especially when you are the "stupid fucks" that missed out in 2nd grade.  And the fact that you want to continue, makes you both look like inbred yokels.

You can be pendantic and wrong and I would have left it alone.  Hence, you see, I didn't reply to you other than showing you the OED link.  Throwing out 'stupid fuck', etc. and being wrong calls for a different response.  So that's what the scatalogical stooge got.

However, if the shoe fits you, wear it.  Your extra fingers and toes are maybe useful for card tricks and counting past 10.

It's funny you are so sure and so obviously wrong at the same time.  Maybe you should write a letter to the OED?  Tell them how Ohio public grade school trumps the OED.  Should be good for another laugh.


Mon, 07/02/2012 - 23:57 | 2582668 akak
akak's picture



You still haven't been able to grasp that your OWN cited source clearly proves you wrong?

Is this simply comedy masquerading as ignorance, or sarcasm masquerading as insanity?

Either way, it is an hysterical travesty of logic (and/or a pathetic demonstration of the obsessive inability to move past a trivial conversational defeat).

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 01:04 | 2582769 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

My cited source says there is more than one accepted way to pronounce the three words cited, included in that set is the word 'historic'.  It then goes on to say that when pronounced with the 'h' silent, it is appropriate to use 'an' instead of 'a' as the indefinite article.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 01:29 | 2582796 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Here read this Mr. Pendantic Pants.

"In the Independent of 14 November 2005, a story included the line, “being housed in an historic building with very particular architectural features”. The Newcastle Evening Chronicle for 15 November 2005 had “Today they addressed Tories at an hotel near Newcastle”. It would be possible to find thousands of other examples in recent decades, to which could be added copious cases of an hypothesis, an heroic, an horrific, and others. All these reflect the actual spoken usage."

I don't have any beef with an Akak gramar observation/critique/debate.  The point of my response was Life could be better if your toady could keep the "stupid fucks" accusations/ language out of it when it's really not appropriate.

Thanks in advance for comprehending this. 

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 16:54 | 2570416 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Butthurt crybaby Bringin It whined:

Hey Stooge - you obviously went to school somewhere in the dismal mid-west.  According to the Oxford English Dictionary, you are wrong about a/an historic.

Hang your empty head in shame. You were so butthurt about this that you spent an entire week looking for some sort of authoritative source to clarify the 'a historic/an historic' question:

Good job, except for one small detail. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, I am correct. That whatever schooling you received was an utter waste of time and resources is clearly indicated by your subliterate reading comprehension.

I'll give you credit where due, though: it takes a special kind of oaf to so forcefully, so stingingly spank his own ass as you've done here. You've failed in a stunningly majestic manner. Such accomplishments aren't seen every day.

The fact that you are so adamant makes you kind of look like a pedantic and in your case, foul-mouthed, bumkin.

Proving my point again that grammar is not your strong point. Pedantic is an adjective. You meant to say that I look like a pedant. Or perhaps you meant for pedantic to modify bumpkin and just got the comma grouping out of place. Foul mouthed? Look, fucker, this isn't the Princess Sparkle Pony web site. If bad words make you soil your diaper, perhaps you should ask an adult to install NetNanny on your computer.

BTWstooge - you are misquoting.  I did not write 'an historical'.

Oh, pardon me, you are partially correct. You wrote 'an historic'. Who's the pedant now? Of course, I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting akak, since it was his post to which I was responding. Here, take a look:

And stupid shit??? you do seem to have some behavioral / socialization issues?

My reply wasn't even to your post, and yet here you are, still stewing with rage a week later. You combed through my comments until you found one where I mentioned that I'm in Ohio and, thinking yourself brilliant, made an enfeebled attempt at an insult based on something that happened to a polluted river up in Cleveland back in the 1960s. After stewing for a week, you pounce at the chance for vindication, only to slip and fall in your own excrement. Blazing the trail of stupidity, you posted this magnum opus of yours not only here, but as a follow up to the original week old thread as well. You might want to look closer to home regarding any behavioral or socialization problems.

Please share some more of your simple rules of wisdom.  Perhaps they'll be equally entertaining??

I'll gladly share two of them. First, don't end a sentence with a question mark unless it asks a question. Second, when you do something really stupid, don't draw attention to it by doing something even more stupid.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 21:34 | 2571911 akak
akak's picture

I stand in awe.

You are my new crybaby-asswhooping hero!

This post of yours was a joy and a delight --- and quite a chuckle --- to read.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 21:38 | 2571926 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

I want to sign up for six more ZH accounts so I can up vote you more.  Bravo!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:23 | 2568007 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Bo Bo Bo........Bo Xilai is the Man !

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:01 | 2568166 i-dog
i-dog's picture


"Merkel is one of the most vocal when it comes to demand more European integration. One could wonder how this qualifies as rejecting the pan European project."

My thoughts, exactly. I'm still waiting for her to pull the "Oh...all can have a lolly!" to the screaming infants. Or, maybe, the "We had no choice!" justification after the fact.

(Now...I need to go take a shower after agreeing with you...I feel sort of dirty....)

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 06:55 | 2575855 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

Struggle for power in Tibet, a few thousand monks against 1/4 of the worlds population, this is chinese mighty victory against non communist terrorists, very good for chinese citizenism.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:46 | 2567894 Frastric
Frastric's picture

No = maybe

Maybe = yes

Yes = Dow Jones orgasm

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 08:52 | 2567920 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

and THAT is why god invented ROOFIES!


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:04 | 2567945 evolutionx
evolutionx's picture

CDS on banks explode again

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:04 | 2567947 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

If Germany goes all in on this, I'll be surprised.  On the other hand, politics is the sickness of humanity and one can never be sure which way is up....   If I could talk with Ms. Merkel I would tell her not to touch any more Eurobonds with a 10' pole.  Not everyone needs to drown; better to have a few survivors: be a survivor, Germany.  Wir lieben euch alle! (We love you all!)


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:11 | 2567967 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

How Germany thought binding themselves together with a bunch of deadbeat socialist spendthrifts would benefit them in the long run I have no idea. They want to rule the eurozone, but not to pay for the stupidity of others? Good luck with that one.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:21 | 2568001 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Germany is a deadbeat socialist spendthrift especially under Helmut Kohl. Germany has just increased its debt ceiling to pay into the ESM. You are potty if you think Germany has been practising what it preaches. Look at Merkel's Government now spending borrowed money on Kitas - childcare centres to woo women voters. Bananenrepublik Deutschland

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:27 | 2568019 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

...thought binding themselves together with a bunch of other deadbeat socialist spendthrifts..

Fixed it. I am not pro-germany in this as my comment may suggest. This was just an attempt to balance out my "blame germany" rhetoric of yesterday.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:44 | 2568095 OttoMBMP
OttoMBMP's picture

You are a good boy after all.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:50 | 2568127 midgetrannyporn
midgetrannyporn's picture

Hello Otto, nice to see you again. :kiss kiss:

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:11 | 2567970 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

I think the author is underestimating the desperation induced madness that will stike our world "leaders" when the shtf. I expect MASSIVE fiat printing accompanied by war. Quite possibly global thermonuclear war. The opposing sides are shaping up nicely right now. It is a fuse in search of a match. Or maybe, it's a slow burning fuse and has already been lit. Only time will tell, but you should never discount human's capacity for self destructive insanity. Just take a look at out known history. Pretty scary.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:14 | 2567972 Element
Element's picture

And now for something completely different ...


Hollande calls for swift action to help struggling EU states
June 28, 2012 03:50 PM
BRUSSELS: French President Francois Hollande called on Thursday for "very quick solutions" to help eurozone nations in financial trouble as he arrived for a crucial EU summit.


[... not that he's desperate of nufin]

"I have come to find very quick solutions to support the countries facing the biggest problems in the markets,"
Hollande told reporters, in a clear reference to Italy and Spain. ...


[we're saved!!!!]


... said Hollande, adding that a growth pact that EU leaders will discuss must total between 120 billion and 130 billion euros, which "we want to be spent rapidly."


[.. oh Rocky, that trick never works ... ]


In other meaningful news: 

"Michael Jackson's tiger dies of lung cancer"

June 28, 2012 03:08 PM


A state funeral will be held in Disneyland on Tuesday.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:59 | 2568158 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

Who were the thinkers and political actors who have inspired Hollande? He cites the influence of Marx’s analysis of capitalism (“utile pour comprendre ce qu’est le capitalisme”) even if the system has changed, Jean Jaurès for his synthesis of socialism and republicanism, the communist black poet, Aimé Césaire, Victor Hugo and Albert Camus.

No surprises here from this tribal cousin of the Phoenicians posing as a Frenchman.


Thu, 06/28/2012 - 10:11 | 2568234 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

L’Étranger was excellent, I think you'd find the inner monologue of the main character much like your own thinking: dry, stale, detached in the most severely complex way.

You love to hatem dontcha buttsnake?

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:27 | 2568021 ak_khanna
ak_khanna's picture

Any individual, corporation, state or country has to learn to live within their means sooner or later. The overspending countries cannot expect better disciplined countries to keep on giving them money to spend till they drag them in the same mess in which the pheripheral countries have gotten themselves into.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:29 | 2568028 ak_khanna
ak_khanna's picture

Any individual, corporation, state or country has to learn to live within their means sooner or later. The overspending countries cannot expect better disciplined countries to keep on giving them money to spend till they drag them in the same mess in which the pheripheral countries have gotten themselves into.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:42 | 2568079 falak pema
falak pema's picture

REmember at the end of this eurocouncil lies the eventuality of the EMS : a mechanism which holds the sovereigns by their nuts; they have SEVEN days to pay, and the decisions of the EMS are irreversible and cannot be contested by anyone, even in the court of law! Total immunity for this fund run by uber-alles german technocrats accountable to no one and who can save whomever they like in a neo-liberal and Oligarchical world! 

Play on! A structure like this is the antithesis of democratic europe!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:48 | 2568100 slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

'Sometimes "No" Means Exactly That'
No it doesn't.....oh wait...

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:46 | 2568106 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Francois is the visionary who found Owsley's stash.  Ya wanna watch sidewalks melt? Paris is where it's at.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 09:59 | 2568153 sbenard
sbenard's picture

I just hope that "no" remains a firm, irrevocable, indefatigable, and unbending "NO!"

Wall St seems to think that "No" means "Just not today!" They treat Merkel's "No" as temporary and as nothing but a negotiating position! I hope it is something more to her!

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:20 | 2569422 Youri Carma
Youri Carma's picture

WTF!!! Schaeuble says Berlin open to euro-bond talks: WSJ

Schäuble On German Endgame Plans or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb. Schäuble’s Survival Plan

Hitler gegen Schäuble ein Vergleich

Dr Strangelove – Schäuble PIC

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