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Spiegel: "It's Time To Ask The People What They Think"
Several months ago we first suggested that the only outcome of the ongoing antagonism between Germany, the now Goldman-controlled European central bank hell bent on generating inflation at any cost, and the rest of Europe's insolvent states, would be a German referendum in which the German people themsleves are asked what they think of the current mess Europe finds itself in. Naturally, days like today, when the ECB does away with inflationary caution and returns to tried and failed methods - because as a reminder conditional secondary market bond purchases are nothing new, and were last tried in the summer of 2011 when Italy became the latest entrant to the SMP program, and failed - is when the impetus for referendum would be highest. Sure enough, German Spiegel has come out with an article pulling precisely on this increasingly more festering wound for the German population.
From Spiegel
It's Time to Ask the People What They Think
After World War II, the West gave Germany two great gifts. The first gift was democracy; the second gift was being integrated into a Europe of free nations. This also included the overriding vision that one day both gifts could be combined to create a democratic United States of Europe. But there was a lack of determination and strength to accomplish this. To make matters worse, both gifts have suffered from the attempt to use a common currency to integrate Europe. Postwar German democracy has never been in such a sorry state as today. It has been a long time since the peoples of Europe eyed each other with so much mistrust.
That is the current situation. Next week, Germany's Federal Constitutional Court will issue another ruling on Germany's euro policy. This is not expected to clear the air or fundamentally improve the situation. A court decision cannot accomplish that. But something must happen. We cannot allow both democracy and Europe to go to rack and ruin. Democracy and European integration form the foundations of our country. The problem is that they have come into contradiction with each other. Assuming the debt mania doesn't continue to spiral out of control, it's a fact that democracy impedes a rapid rescue for the euro, while a rapid rescue for the euro undermines democracy.
Such a contradiction begs a decision. What is more important to the Germans: their democracy or Europe? Or is there a way to reconcile the two, democracy and Europe? It isn't easy. It cannot be done without risks. But there is a way.
...
The State of Europe
If one had to very briefly summarize what characterizes European history, it could look like this: Many of humanity's best ideas come from Europe -- such as democracy, the Enlightenment and the rule of law, along with great discoveries in the natural sciences. But all of this did not prevent Germany from sparking two world wars and carrying out the Holocaust. Despite utter devastation, the nations of Europe nevertheless managed to reconcile their differences and build the European Union.
It's no secret that Europe has always been an elite project. Many politicians in Germany thought that European unity was a good thing, and pursued it more or less surreptitiously, in any case without consulting the population. They built a Europe that suited them, without a strong parliament, but which had a strong bureaucracy and where national governments had great influence. They thought that this Europe would be so wonderful that one day its citizens would be delighted that it existed. This approach, dubbed "output legitimacy" by scholars, is based on achieving legitimacy via results.
It may not be perfect, but it's an acceptable method. Democracy is never flawless; it's never purely the rule of the people. Sometimes a country is governed contrary to the will of the people, or without taking it into account, at least for a certain amount of time. On top of the results that have been achieved, elections then provide a retroactive legitimacy.
But it was, as is now clear, a serious mistake not to link the introduction of the euro to the creation of a European financial government subject to parliamentary control. In its current form, the monetary union is no longer a success. Everyone did what they wanted. Some ran up debts that they could handle, while others ran up debts that they couldn't handle. And now we face a major crisis.
Europe is in a serious predicament. The unifying concept of peace in Europe has lost its appeal. The interests of the member states run counter to each other. Some want as much solidarity as possible in the crisis, while others want as little as possible. And there is no process to resolve these conflicts in a democratic and effective manner. Europe, then, is also in trouble.
Time to Ask the People
German democracy is suffering under Europe, while Europe is suffering under the national interests of the member states and the lack of a sensible political structure. That is the current state of democracy and Europe, the foundations of postwar Germany. What direction should we take now? Does democracy take priority over Europe? Or does Europe take priority over democracy?
There is a way to avoid this conflict. The Germans can reconcile their democracy with European integration. To do that, they would need to be asked.
Fundamentally, it is a good thing that we have a representative democracy where people go to the polls and politicians make decisions between elections. They have the expertise and the time to consider how society should best be organized. But sometimes we have to decide on the really big issues -- and then it is time to ask the people. The current crisis involves a really big question: Is the population prepared to transfer sovereignty to Europe so that effective euro policies are possible?
This doesn't mean that we have to rewrite the German constitution. It doesn't mean that we have to create a United States of Europe. For the time being, it's enough just to clarify the issue. From a legal perspective, it's not very easy, but it's possible. Where there's a will, there's a way.
The debate that would be held in the run-up to such a referendum would already be valuable in itself. Although the focus is fiscal policy, Germany would have to engage in a broader debate over what kind of Europe it wants and what its own role should be. The politicians would first have to make up their minds and then, assuming they make the right decision, campaign for greater integration. But this time they would use modern arguments in favor of Europe, such as a large shared culture, a greater say in global politics and favorable conditions for German exports.
If the politicians manage to convince the majority of the population, the German government would have a mandate to campaign in Europe for greater integration in terms of fiscal policy, in exchange for relinquishing sovereignty. It would then have a strong legitimization, a strong mandate for pro-integration policies. That would be the better scenario.
The worse scenario, of course, would also be possible -- but it wouldn't spell the end of Europe. The EU has already survived a French referendum that rejected the proposed European constitution. The German government could continue to work to help debt-stricken countries. This would be done in accordance with German budgetary law, which would not be weakened.
No matter what happens, democracy is the winner in such a referendum. The cause of European integration could win, but it could also suffer a setback. But this way the proper checks and balances are in place. After all, when push comes to shove, democracy ultimately has to come first.
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I think most of the "middle-class" people already know :)
Who carez what the people think if most of them spend their time eating junk food and watching junk TV? They deserve what they get, and they are going to get it from the banksters, good and hard.
Are they asking "the people" or "The People?"
It's an important distinction.
The Germans are just as stupid as Americans. Both countries neck and neck on the level of new stupidity generated each and every day.
They pretend to have choices with " referendums " like we pretend to have choices with our own elections, all bullshit all the time.
The "we must pretend" has a ways to go yet.
I play that game with my toddler. Rather than declare, "time to go to bed" outright, which puts him in rebuke/evasion mode, from which things can escalate, I ask, "do you want to read Cat in the Hat or Tawny Scrawny Lion tonight?" Works like a charm.
Apparently, works on adults too!
goo goo goo
dah dah dah
Bears hanging onto a Spiegel-driven referendum rumor. Good for another 5 ES squeeze.
This also included the overriding vision that one day both gifts could be combined to create a democratic United States of Europe.
Spiegel was on the right path until they said the above. As soon as you try to make a big super state - the citizenry has less and less control. No Euro and No EU-SSR.
Bingo. Small states = distributed power = more voice for the average citizen. The Articles of Confederation keep looking better and better.
Plus superior economic stability resulting from redundancy and variety resulting from compartmentalization. Anarcho-syndicalism
Yeah, No Euro and No EU-SSR. Only USSA, errr, USSE(uropa)!
People? Who gives a shit what they think. We have bonds to buy, lives to destroy, and bankers that need fat wallets. People...there are no more people.
What are you, a trading alog?
My P&L is proof I am no algo. :)
He is Jack's complete lack of surprise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club
Tyler, you might want to amend the "Cultural Impact" section of this wiki page. ZH is not mentioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club
Yet, we have to care what a turd thinks?
ps.
Tyler has been asking many people here what they think, they have been mostly wrong on market direction and neutral on pm predictions.
"Neutral on PM predictions." Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Hold on. Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
No, no...seriously. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
YTD my comments are correct .
You did not ask what ( I ) think about the future . I have some PHYS, PSLV , GDXJ , GDX . Some gold ,silver and lots of top of the line Argentinian wines at home, and i mean LOTS , 2 weapons . 2 homes , land , O DEBT . So we are somewhat on the same page.
BUT i still have longs in the market , only one short SCO , and LOTS of CASH in MM.
I am a provocateur. So this is easy pickings here whith so many "ALL IN " hold em players.
SO BWWOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA You , gold roach.
What is your time frame ZH posters on being right or wrong ?
YTD? ZH has been beating the metals drum for years. So I wouldn't call them "neutral". Also, congratulations for being able to come to the internet as an anonymous entity patting yourself on the back for all of the wine and paper assets you own. Must feel good. We are all proud of you for owning 'top of the line Argentinian wine' and '2 weapons'. You are truly missing the point of ZH if you think this is a site to come to in order to boast about your stuff. Good for you my man, good for you. 'All in' hold-em players...what does this even mean?
it means you go all in with a pair of jacks in your hand...
So NO one here mentions GUNS , GOLD , PAPER assets and FOOD....just me , bwwaaaaa FU.
I'm here because this site is very good. Lot,s of people with a decent brain , some roaches , you know the good and the bad.
I'm just looking around the table jacks guy.
You are wrong on so many levels. JJ hold cards seems like a pretty good hand in my opinion...
Only three better hands, no? I would argue more hands have been won than lost with JJ hold cards. Could you disagree with that? I digress...
This has no bearing regarding your original comment that ZH has been 'neutral on their PM calls'. Why can't you just admit you are wrong? Instead you boast about the things you own and then presume to think people will tell you are awesome for owning 'LOTS of cash', '2 weapons', and 'top of the line 'Argentinian wine.'
only three better hands, lol , yet you get the green arrows,,
bwuuuuuaaaaaa funny funny.
i care about this year and the next not what has happened in the last decade on pm.
only three better hands, lol , yet you get the green arrows,,
bwuuuuuaaaaaa funny funny.
i care about this year and the next not what has happened in the last decade on pm.
$4.00 gas is already a problem. Imagine another $1.00. Remember, perception and actual buying power are everything.
hmmm .... I wonder if Obummer will mention $4 gasoline in his speech, or if he'll be too busy taking credit for the newly achieved stock market highs ...
If he is re-selected - it will go to $5 or 6 because of dollar devaluation. Even if Romney is somehow decent - it will be hard to avout $5 gas. The dollar is over.
Cuz' everybody knows that gas always goes UP after Labor Day at the same time usage drops to multi-year lows.
Welp, I guess that's what all those fucking tanks are for. Yipee!
The lack of trust is the direct result of a lack of "rule of law" and no bad consequences for bad behavior and theft (where is John Corzine?).
Europe can thank Goldman Sucks, that is all.
"We have been Hijacked" is what they say.
Yeah right ...what the people think. What a joke.
I think kim kardashian should breakup with snoop dogg
I'm waiting for Betty White's opinion.
Actually, she's dating Bob Marley.
Germans, FFS just give them your money or get the fuck out of the EU. There are no other options.
No comments from Merkel or Weidman this morning.
I suppose it takes time for her to complete a poll.
I hear that filling out all that 'sucession' documentation can be REALLY time consuming ...
They may need quiet for the Bundesbank to sever its fiber optic link to the ECB and for Merkel to prepare her speech to the German people describing the process of EU departure.
I would guess they would do it all quietly rather than loudly.
But it was, as is now clear, a serious mistake not to link the introduction of the euro to the creation of a European financial government subject to parliamentary control.
And a very lucky mistake for the Germans.
Otherwise, the referendum which you are now proposing would be meaningless now wouldn't it?
Of course, it wasn't a "mistake," but an impossibility. The "mistake" was calculated as the only achievable compromise at the time, and everyone knew full well, back then, that this very situation WOULD occur, especially once the facade of "not exceeding the 2% limit" was revealed to be nonenforceable, and thus mooooooooooot!
They, also knew that when this blowup was to happen, it would create the mandate to "fix" the system (yet another facade) and it they will create the union by force that they could not achieve at the ballot box, all those years ago.
A bump in the road for the NWO? Either another Weimar and potentially another Hitler, or a fuck you to the whole Euro concept.
That's the crux of the German Court decision
" good is good and bad is even better..."
Fuck Central Planning
These "man on the street" segments are usually classic. They find the most brain dead puppet available and then put them on TV to support the desired position.
Anyone remember the poor guy who took his mother's nest egg to buy facebook at $40 ++?
The media only ever tells half the story.
He did that so his total assets would fall to under $2000 and he and his ma could qualify for Medicaid.
people hahaha that is some funny stuff. $4 gas and the market continues its run. wonder where the market will be when we hit $5?
Hmmm, I recall that when this was attempted in Greece the Troika pulled the "No Soup for you!" card (Seinfeld reference) - But what do the people know...I mean look at the governments we have put in place....Can we go back to August Holiday - everything seemed 'more sensible' then....</sarc off>
Today is depressing - I have watched the markets explode on the basis of Mario Draghi making a promise whic he is not authorised to make about buying bonds - which is the 3rd...4th...I can't even remember..attempt at solving this crisis.
How stupid are traders? Are they seriously saying this bond buying will change anything?
Don't they even look at the previous attempts and how they turned out?
Don't they consider the long term effects of such a policy?
I simply cannot understand this world anymore - it's utter, utter madness.
How stupid are computers? There are no humans left in this 'market'
You hit the nail on the head when you said "traders". Many of them know what is coming down the road but just want to make a quick buck. Personally, I don't have the guts for it so I stay out of the casino. I am slowly accumulating some PMs and will weather the coming storm, if and this is a big if...I don't have any boating accidents.
so i have a question about what people think...im in the market for a .45 (acp) handgun...i only have another few weeks before my permit to purchase runs.............nothing over the top price wise.....(a colt m1911 is a dream)....what does anybody think about a reliable .45 semiautomatic handgun?? suggestions?......thoughts???..
Nah, not a .45...
Get a Model M95 Barrett :)
Purists will disagree but I would check out the Sig 1911 line. For half that price, the ones made in the Phillipines appear to be functional. Keep in mind that a .45 Glock is a far more reliable and practical choice.
Or make your gun yourself from diffrent parts like "hitmans" do :)
unless you reload, those rounds are already very expensive, get a thudbuster, uses .410 shotgun shells.
The Colt m1911 is a nice gun. Have you given any thoughts to the Springfield XD .45? It's a pretty sharp gun .
have you had any issues with the springfield...i dont know why, i cant get myself to look at one........
That's too much gun for a concealed semiautomatic, I prefer my 9mm with upgraded ammo. I like my Taurus .357 revolver, too. The added bonus is it shoots .38 ammo.
Just get something bigger than a .380 and practice, practice, practice.
Glock is pretty reliable. The 36 model is a single stack 45acp, 6 rds, which is good for C&C. They have a newer gen 4 45acp that holds more rounds in a double stack configuration but that makes the grip pretty big. Probably not something you'd want for CC but good for around the property. I've heard good things about it but have never shot it. I have the 36 and it's been reliable. Hope that helps some.
thanks chubbar, i will look into the glocks....i thought their .45s were geared more towards their own calibar bullet the .45 gap......which doesnt seem to compare to the acp............
Best gun(s) is (are) the one(s) that fits hollow point bullets if you live in the USA :)
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/why-is-homeland-security-buying-450-mill...
get a Norinco--- a chinese 1911 knock off-- will operate for ever with no problems-- will eat any kind of +P hand load you want to feed it. get 10 exrta mags, get a set of carbide loading dies, a "O" press and 5000 cases, 15,000 bulk hollow points and large pistol primers. Get a loading book and 20 pounds of ball powder of your choice and some ear/eye protection. Practice practice practice. don't just bang away-- make every shoot count. After a few thousand rounds down range you'll start to get a feel for it--- 30,000 or so and you'll be able to hit in the dark-- no kidding -- just, sound, grip and muscle memory-- its cool.
Smith & Wesson M&P .45 is affordable, reliable, has ambi controls and a reversible mag release, accessory rail, and 10rd capacity. Only shortcoming is the trigger, it's got a mushy reset. But, good news is there are aftermarket fixes for that: https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid16.html
what is the difference between their newer m&p line and their 1911 series? is the m&p holding its own?
I have shot the G21 (the full sized Glock .45ACP). It's surprisingly decent and very reliable.
I'm a pretty hard core 1911 guy, but I like Glocks, too. They're reliable and functional and not picky about ammo. They ain't pretty, but they're good guns.
After steel receivers, I prefer polymer. I don't like alloy receivers for handguns.
The best of all is a Void Density Core Weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Men_in_Black_weapons
phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range?
blaster?
HK USP. If you have big hands, anyway.
Oh hell no...they are getting ready for Octoberfest...omm pah baby...omm pah
OCTOBER FEST is awsome , i,ve been you,ve not !
BULLISH with SEptember 12th pre party !
complete mayhem today, tomorrow and maybe the rest of the month will be madnes... we can only hope. Soon we will all be saved come November lol
Ask them how they feel about bailing out the PIGS and maybe France. Both Greece and France reported increases in unemployment today.
http://confoundedinterest.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/draghis-hard-road-ahead-greek-and-france-unemployment-rise/
Euro stock markets closing ... both spain and italy are up over 4% on the day ...
"Output Legitimacy" has to be one of the most insidious euphimisems of all time. Ends justify the Means you mean...
Please please please.......gooooooooooooo
Ireland always had a Pack of Hyneas up in Dublin Castle willing to serve anybody who credits 30 pieces of silver (or modern Euros) into their bank account.
We need to get these Bastards off our back - Germans can help us in a quest to stop the export of hard currency.
Irish oil imports Jan – June…….+ total yearly oil imports expressed in Ktoe
Y2012 : 2,709 Million Euros (latest est.)
Y2011 : 2,628 Million Euros…………………….Y2011 : 8,776 KTOE
Y2010 : 2,087 Million………………………….. Y2010 : 8,912 KTOE
Y2009 : 1,574 Million Euros (price slump)……. Y2009 : 9,019 KTOE
Y2008 : 2,545 Million Euros (collapse level ?)…..Y2008 : 10,386 KTOE
Y2007 : 1,954 Million Euros……………………..Y2007 : 10,291 KTOE
Y2006 : 1,936 Million Euros……………………..Y2006 : 10,793 KTOE
Y2005 : 1,469 Million Euros……………………..Y2005 : 11,180 KTOE
Y2004 : 972 Million Euros……………………..Y2004 : 10,184 KTOE
Y2003 : 816 Million Euros……………………..Y2003 : 10,171 KTOE
Y2002 : 757 Million Euros……………………..Y2002 : 10,476 KTOE
Y2001 : 410 Million Euros……………………..Y2001 : 10,353 KTOE
Y1998 : 303 Million Punts……………………..Y1998 : 8,886 KTOE
Y2006 :Irish National debt interest paid to
residents : 826 Million Euros
Rest of the world :990 Million Euros
Y2011 : national debt interest paid to
residents :1,101 Million Euors
rest of the world : 4,067 Million Euros........
DOC, quick question, how many bankers in Ireland were arrested and prosecuted for the indebtedness and rip off of the whole Irish economy? Head of Anglo? How many years did he get? Allied? Anybody? Ireland had no external sov debt till those banks went tits up, now the people will never again know a time without austerity and huge taxes to pay for this. I actually considered relocating to Ireland till I saw that you are getting a brand spanking new property tax on top of the existing stamp duty (for Americans reading this Ireland had no property tax but rather a stamp duty of how much DOC? About 7%, like a sales tax on real estate transactions, once it was paid you never had to worry about losing your house or land for tax reasons) my Irish passport expires on the 19th a week from next Wednesday, I believe I will just let it stay expired, I am too embarrassed by the hang dog submissiveness of a once great fighting people to the banksters of Europe, I am so glad my father is not alive to see what Ireland has become.
Ireland has ALWAYS functioned like this ..... but outside the Euro or European transfers those traitors had a limited amount of bounty to play with.
I don't really care about Seanie boy or the rest as they were /are mere local merchants of debt - they need the Venetian banks to provide them with the optimum operating envoirment.
As long as we remain withen the Euro and indeed the EU things will get worse as more little Seans Grow up - although in truth the process has probally gone too far now.
Especially post 1987 the country really no longer exists.....its a mere conduit for capital with desperate labour following the Euro pied piper.
Stay out of this Shit hole - its over here.
It's Time to Ask the People What They Think
hahahahahahahahahaha!! What this means translated is to ask the Jewsih Gangsters on Wall Street and running the money what they think!
I remember hearing that if the Irish got a referendum vote............ well they'd shove it up the bankers' asses! Well, the Irish got one....and rolled over like puppy dogs.
Heerrre Fido, fetch the debt.
who counted those votes?
Partly right, they had the vote on two referendum issues and both times the people voted it down, but the government simply said OK then we will revote till the people get it right. What is the point in voting no when you then just have to revote till you say yes?
The 10 T Oz of silver and .5 T Oz gold I keep on my desk seem pretty calm about it all. Just laying there, oblivious to all the hubbub. I am guessing they don't know anybody named "Mario" and have only seen fiat in "passing".
About debt sterilisation : Draghi promises this in all transparency.
How does this work for Tier A, shrt term bonds, which are controlled by ECB? Unlimited buying of this mean unlimited sterilisation as well, which is problematic; eliminating liquidity elsewhere. How does this work without adding net assets to ECB balance sheet?
I know Tyler has commented on this but its a little hazy. Looks like a huge open ended gamble by Draghi if the market does not buy into this two tier system.
It is Germany's turn to serve the banking cartel. Then they'll look like Greece. Then they'll get an army. Then they'll make allies to hunt down banksters. Then
In my speech class the book covers political correctness and ethics. The author writes that a list of words should be made illegal on campus but as of yet they have been upheld by the supreme court. The author has not been pepper sprayed at my college yet.
The bankers have not been pepper sprayed yet.
A German referendum? Just another "can-kicking" date to be manipulatd by the Criminal Elite.
Prih-T weak.
Shit, they don't even HONESTLY ask for input from the "people" in the supposedly most democratic nation on the globe, the USA. Yeah right, the banksters really want to listen to a bunch of useless eaters complain about their lot in life. If they ever do I am sure Diebold will be more than happy to count those votes.
Had the opportunity to speak with a native German woman who recently moved over to US with her military husband.
I asked her what the German people thought about all this.
She said that she used to be able to buy a couple weeks worth of grocery for 100EU.....now is to the point that 100EU barely covers the bottom of the shopping cart.
One has to wonder at what point the German populace decides enough is exactly that.
Or are they sheeple like the Americans?
The German people have an ominous history of obedience to their government.
Ask the people? Won't happen, because the MerkelMonarchy knows perfectly well what would be teh answer.
Reminds me of Obama going after the banksters, after he gave all the money to the banksters.
Talking of referendums - didn't this all start with the idea of giving the Greek people a referendum on whether to be debt slaves or just tell the big banks to go f*ck themselves - should have had that referendum instead of kicking out the then Greek Prime Minister - he had it right!