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Student Loan Bubble To Exceed $1 Trillion: "It's Going To Create A Generation Of Wage Slavery" And Another Taxpayer Bailout

Tyler Durden's picture


First, this is the total amount of student debt in real time:



While one of the biggest complaints of #OccupyWallStreet protesters, and much of the balance of middle-class America, continues to be the burden of student loans, the paradox is that, as the USA Today reports once again on one of its favorite subjects, student loans are set to surpass $1 trillion in total notional for the first time in history on what appears to be relentless demand and interest for this cheap form of educational financing, making this debt burden the single largest form of consumer debt, well bigger than outstanding credit card debt, and smaller only compared to mortgage debt. "The amount of student loans taken out last year crossed the $100 billion mark for the first time and total loans outstanding will exceed $1 trillion for the first time this year. Americans now owe more on student loans than on credit cards, reports the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. Students are borrowing twice what they did a decade ago after adjusting for inflation, the College Board reports. Total outstanding debt has doubled in the past five years — a sharp contrast to consumers reducing what's owed on home loans and credit cards." What explains this insatiable demand for this kind of debt? Well, it's cheap, it's easily accessible (the collateral is education), and it is fungible - a student can take out a loan, yet use part or all of the balance for tangential purchases (that iPhone 4S sure would make me cool). But this, like every other debt, comes at a price.

Per USA Today:

Taxpayers and other lenders have little risk of losing money on the loans, unlike mortgages made during the real estate bubble. Congress has given the lenders, the government included, broad collection powers, far greater than those of mortgage or credit card lenders. The debt can't be shed in bankruptcy.


The credit risk falls on young people who will start adult life deeper in debt, a burden that could place a drag on the economy in the future.


"Students who borrow too much end up delaying life-cycle events such as buying a car, buying a home, getting married (and) having children," says Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of

Naturally, just like in the credit bubble days, when NINJA loans were fast and furious, the lines in front of banks stretched around the block. Banks may or may not have known that the loans would be repaid, but nobody pressured borrowers to live in that big McMansion that "demanded" $1 down and a 99.9% LTV. Sure enough, when the day of reckoning comes, it is never the fault of the person who probably should have shown some restraint, but no: after all everyone else is doing it.

Well, it is the same thing now. And with generations of people indoctrinated that only those with a college degree can be successful, it is only obvious that student debt is now the next big bubble.

"It's going to create a generation of wage slavery," says Nick Pardini, a Villanova University graduate student in finance who has warned on a blog for investors that student loans are the next credit bubble — with borrowers, rather than lenders, as the losers.


Full-time undergraduate students borrowed an average $4,963 in 2010, up 63% from a decade earlier after adjusting for inflation, the College Board reports. What's happening:

Granted, unlike with the mortgage bubble collapse, this time we know, as Zero Hedge reported earlier in the week, that everyone is on the fraud. We quote from "The Fraud At The Heart Of Student Lending Exposed - The One Sentence Everyone Should Read"

A key reason why a preponderance of the population is fascinated with the student loan market is that as USA Today reported in a landmark piece last year, it is now bigger than ever the credit card market. And as the monthly consumer debt update from the Fed reminds us, the primary source of funding is none other than the US government. To many, this market has become the biggest credit bubble in America. Why do we make a big deal out of this? Because as Bloomberg reported last night, we now have prima facie evidence that the student loan market is not only an epic bubble, but it is also the next subprime! To wit: "Vince Sampson, president, Education Finance Council, said during a panel at the IMN ABS East Conference in Miami Monday that lenders are no longer pushing loans to people who can’t afford them." Re-read the last sentence as many times as necessary for it to sink in. Yes: just like before lenders were "pushing loans to people who can't afford them" which became the reason for the subprime bubble which has since spread to prime, but was missing the actual confirmation from authorities of just this action, this time around we have actual confirmation that student loans are being actually peddled to people who can not afford them. And with the government a primary source of lending, we will be lucky if tears is all this ends in.

So... debtors know it's a bubble, lenders know it's a bubble, everyone knows it's a bubble, yet it is growing faster now than ever before.

If nothing this is a fantastic exercise in observing a slow at first, then fast-motion train wreck from the side. It is without a shadow of a doubt, that not only will the student debt bubble pop, but writedowns on amounts outstanding will be massive, potentially resulting in another hit of 50% to total notionals, or about $500 billion. And since the borrowers will be fully tapped out, and the lenders will plead ignorance, and control the regulators and administration any way, is there any doubt who will once again be forced to pay for this upcoming bail out? This is something that does not require a college degree to figure out...


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Thu, 10/20/2011 - 17:47 | 1794912 redpill
redpill's picture

Undischargable debt = institutionalized, legalized slavery.


Maybe the vote of those with student loan debt should only be worth 3/5ths of a full vote, too.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:15 | 1795015 Don Birnam
Don Birnam's picture

"Full-time undergraduate students borrowed an average $4,963 in 2010..."

Hold the phone -- a debt apocalypse precipitated by a mere forty-nine hundred bucks a head ? The average undergrad frat boy/sorority chick has more outstanding on their A&F card than that indicated balance.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:26 | 1795053 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

That looks like an annual number, banker shill.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:32 | 1795066 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

True, you fulltime debtors have got to borrow that annually; get educated beyond your intellectual capacity; and then join OWS to DEMAND cancellation of all the nasty debt that the BAD wittle banker shills forced you to volunteer for...

Can't Obummer just give you all that FREE money all at once, so you can party like Elvis in Viva Las Vegas? ROFLMAO

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:39 | 1795112 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

What a curious response. I'm no debtor, but I do favor a nice debt jubilee in a massive monetary reset. And I do think college is a racket that doesn't teach any marketable skills for most - though I don't assume much about others intellectual capabilities because I respect others for their own value. And I don't fault others for their indoctrination, perhaps I might try to lift the veil a bit...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:42 | 1795272 i-dog
i-dog's picture

You can't just push 'Restart' every time the goblins get you in 'World of Warcraft'! (you'll have to excuse the accuracy of the characters in this ananlogy: I don't play those games - but you should get the drift). The computer gaming generation has learned some very dangerous lessons.

But the point I really want to make is that a 'jubilee' fixes nothing, other than their immediate spot of bother: the system of debt for unproductive pleasure (whether for acquiring symbols of wealth or symbols of intelligence/usefullness - neither of which is accurate) is the real problem.

A second point I wish to make is that this ponzi debt bubble has been engineered for a purpose - and that purpose was not simply to make bankers wealthy (they already were), but to funnel the ownership of title in all persons and all real property in the US and Europe into a single organisation that is colloquially called "TPTB". After that is to come the debtors prisons, work camps, and obedience to the exalted ones at the top of the hierarchy that has been sorely lacking in the upstart peasantry since the beginning of the "Renaissance" (which, in French and to those of us in the Third Estate, means re-birth but, to TPTB, meant something far less attractive).

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:06 | 1795442 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

You seem to agree that the current monetary system is a fraud to scam and transfer ownership. Then why wouldn't you want a jubilee? The way to destroy the current debt-money system would be to forgive the debt. United States Notes. Republic. Free men. Gold and silver for barter and stores of value. No standing armies. End fractional reserve banking. Etc.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:44 | 1795966 Melin
Melin's picture

So, if a "free" man wants to create a bank, entice customers by providing a provable safe store for their wealth, take deposits, determine and reserve the amount of money he'd likely be required to cover withdrawals, make loans, pay for insurance in case he errs...he should be barred from doing so?  Do I misunderstand fractional reserve banking?

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:14 | 1796081 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

imo, no.  the "free market", in many cases made clearest by a close reading of the 1880 to 1932 period, has flaws of major proportions.  

often the market degenerates into oligopoly and monopoly.  producers pollute, make defective products, etc. because the market has poor pricing for air, water and ugly; buyers and sellers have asymmetric information, etc.  financial panics, waves of bank failures produce enormous burdens for the entire economy, many of whose members made no transaction with the institutions originating the calamity.  

whether or not government (or something else) can countervail, regulate or ameliorate these flaws for long, given the tendency to regulatory capture, is a good question.

like adam smith said, the tendency for capitalists to subvert capitalism is undying.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 04:54 | 1796190 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

unrelated to the thread but relevant on the topic:


Entrepreneur Peter Thiel, co-founder of Pay Pal, board member of Facebook; president, Clarium Capital, Says College Isn’t Worth It

the Fellows will pursue innovative scientific and technical projects, learn entrepreneurship, and begin to build the technology companies of tomorrow. During their two-year tenure, each Fellow will receive $100,000 from the Thiel Foundation as well as mentorship from the Foundation’s network of tech entrepreneurs and innovators. The project areas for this class of fellows include biotech, career development, economics and finance, education, energy, information technology, mobility, robotics, and space.


Laura Deming wants to extend the human lifespan for a few more centuries—at the very least. She started working in a biogerontology lab when she was 12, matriculated at MIT when she was 14, and now at 17 plans on disrupting the current research paradigm by changing the incentives embedded in today’s traditional funding structures. Too often, researchers design quick incremental projects to please grant-making bodies instead of taking on risky, long time horizon problems. With her fund IP Immortal, Laura plans on commercializing anti-aging research, bringing therapies out of the lab and into the market sooner.


Andrew Hsu started doing research in a pathology lab when he was 10. By the time he was 12, he had matriculated at the University of Washington. Soon after, he graduated with honors degrees in neurobiology, biochemistry, and chemistry. He was a 19-year-old 4th-year neuroscience Ph.D. candidate at Stanford University when he left early this year to pursue his start-up, Airy Labs.


John Burnham believes that the search for new resources has driven exploration, expansion, and innovation—from the discovery of the Americas to the California Gold Rush. Likewise, he believes the key to colonizing space is to make it possible to extract valuable minerals from asteroids, comets, and other planetary bodies. John plans on using his fellowship to develop space industry technologies to solve the problem of extraterrestrial resource extraction.


Jim Danielson is working on building a more powerful and efficient motor for electric vehicles. He has already electrified a Porsche 924S, including power electronics of his own design. He is currently co-launching Makt Systems LLC, a start-up to commercialize his research and design. Before becoming a Fellow, Jim co-founded the Electric Vehicle Club at Purdue and was president of Purdue Innovations, the university’s entrepreneurship club.


Dale Stephens flaunts non-conformity in most aspects of his life. At 19, he leads UnCollege, the global social movement that applies the methods of unschooling—the self-directed brand of homeschooling with which he was raised—to the realm of higher education. His first book, a guide to hacking your education, will be published by Perigee/Penguin in early 2013.


Jeffrey Lim wants to increase the amount of voluntary exchange and cooperation in the world by revamping some of our core economic and social institutions. He believes it’s time the means of exchange caught up with the Information Age. Once he stops out of MIT, Jeffrey plans on using his fellowship to create technologies that will help people self-organize to solve social problems. He’s particularly interested in helping people protect the wealth they create from the harmful effects of inflation.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 11:18 | 1797185 Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

I have to agree with Trader Joe, I don't understand the defense of the debt as money system in this thread. I also don't understand why folks think it's good and even noble to own debt (eg the pensioner holding debt). As though somehow getting first in line at the debt ponzi by pure luck of an earlier birth entitles you to enslave later generations. The solution is debt free money plain and simple. "Pensioners" existed in prior times by helping out their families and being helped by their families. Now days everyone wants to break the family unit down to the smallest possible, the individual vs. the created corporate entities. How's that working out for everyone?

Buying into the bankers system (defense of debt, dragging out grandma as a reason the 20 somethings need to be bent over the barrell etc.) means you ENDORSE the bankers system. Do away with debt or else you aren't really against the bankers system, you just want the game tilted in YOUR favor.

Student loan debt is among the most odious due to the age at which the debt is issued at (the same age the military targets due to lower risk/benefit analysis capability compared to mid-twenties and older adults), the fact that one cannot remove it by bankruptcy and the fact that it is insane to charge our citizenry to become more productive (potentially, but those bullshit degrees are side effects of the student debt ponzi). Everyone should get a free education to help improve our society. This is something the ENTIRE REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD agrees on. Once again American exceptionalism at its finest. What's the most hilarious part, is those who hate bankers will come by to give me a thumbs defend the bankers debt system.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:17 | 1795629 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

The reset is going to happen with or without a jubilee. Banks always extend themselves too far. Presumably, a jubilee would be a more organized default.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:59 | 1795700 bankruptcylawyer
bankruptcylawyer's picture


your first comment shows you lack insight into the meaning of jubliee. if somehow, the people are able to push through a social political movement that extiniguishes the vast majority of their debt, then they've succesfully destroyed the current banking system based on the fed. a true jubilee results in destruction of the banking system. a fake one just shifts costs of debt forgiveness from one group onto another group of plebians and leaves the debt issuers in essense a special interest bailout for students at the expense of a different group of proles and consumers. 


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:02 | 1795811 trav7777
trav7777's picture

so all the debtors get to walk away but all the pensioners who own that debt get fucked...yeah, and let's cut SS too.

Someone is gonna suffer

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:34 | 1796047 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture



My pension isn't in debt, the blood of the children and unborne but in real money - sweet silver and gold. For how long will the old suck the blood from the young, the living? Until their marrow is gone and their bones dry and clacking?

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:13 | 1796085 batterycharged
batterycharged's picture

Hey you lazy bum, go get a job and if you can't find one, go back to school!

Hey you dumb loser, it's your fault for taking out that $100,000 loan that you can't pay back trying to get an education and a job!

You have to love the cold-hearted mentality in this country. I think people love to set people up to fail so they can ridicule them either way.

Realize also that many people bought expensive houses because.....THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS ON THE EFFING MARKET.  It's a bubble for a reason! People assumed they could always sell the house.

Jeez. People get caught up in these ponzi scams and you blame them for trying to participate honestly in society??

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 12:01 | 1797361 Willzyx
Willzyx's picture

These pensioners really expect to earn a return by lending to students?

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:06 | 1795889 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"your first comment shows you lack insight into the meaning of jubliee"

Au contraire. I contend that it shows I have insight into the effects of a jubilee. There are many factors at play and I'm just throwing it out there for [rational] rebuttal.

Firstly, the banking system, including the European CBs, is busily transferring all their toxic shit onto the books of the Fed. After which, the Fed will be buried (which is why I don't expect them to do any more QE...just accumulate more "assets"). OK, toxic derivatives out of the way - now, who owns what? (One factor that I haven't looked into--because it doesn't affect me--is what the effect of a jubilee will be on student loans. Given that they can't be absolved in bankruptcy, does the fine print also pre-empt government-declared jubilees?),

Secondly, when the currencies collapse, the person holding the title will be holding the asset. If, however, there is a jubilee (and the bankstaz may even volunteer one), good luck finding your title and claiming "your" property after the "accidental" mixups of MERS! Also, don't be surprised if/when a skeleton is dragged out of the FDR closet that [finally] sheds some light on who actually owns each serf with a SSN and numbered birth certificate (unless, of course, it is only a forged/photoshopped one from the early '60s).

Thirdly, unless the system that built the ponzi - ie. the state (including its guiding high priests and bankers) - is removed from the equation for the 'restart', the ponzi will just start afresh. As a wise friend once said: "If you were to stop the world tomorrow and redistribute everything absolutely evenly then, within 6 months, I suggest the rich would be rich again and the poor would be poor again"!

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 06:10 | 1796218 zen0
zen0's picture

I would just like to point out that the main feature of a Jubilee is that it is predictable 50 years in advance. After a Jubilee, money becomes cheap. As time goes on, it becomes expensive. Consequences ensue.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:19 | 1795937 Melin
Melin's picture

I was already "in a spot of bother" by Tyler's gratuitous attack on Apple, “(that iPhone 4S sure would make me cool)” when the "unproductive pleasure” assault on thinking people with information devices reared its ugly head, yet again. 

There are numerous arenas one can choose to criticize our society. If we're to incur voluntary debt, I can't think of a better "unproductive" pleasure than that provided by instant connectivity with billions of people.

Keep bloggin' people.  Individuals with "unproductive devices" worldwide are tuning in.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:37 | 1796108 i-dog
i-dog's picture

LOL (and condolences). 1 green from me. My life would be quite different now, too, if it weren't for all the spending on fast cars, wine, wimmen, song, toys and travel ... particularly on wimmen. No regrets, though ;)

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:34 | 1795349 flacon
flacon's picture

A nice "Debt Jubilee"/"Debt Forgiveness"... does that mean we get to party like it's 1999 again? Beers for everyone - this life is too easy. 


There aren't any negative unintended consequences of Jubilee Party are there? It's FREE right? The government can pay for it, right? Right?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:13 | 1795467 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

OWS should demand that government only pay 100% scholarships for top 10% of graduating class. Rest get no aid.

This way shitty schools and shitty majors die off intead of living large off of tax payer education subsidies.

This way college degrees mean something.

This way banksters stop pushing shitty loans to those who shouldn't go to college.

This way dumbasses can face reality and go into production jobs. Hey about joining NYPD?

This way intelligence gets respect back and teachers too since grades mean money.

You want a giant football stadium? pay it with ticket prices not education subsidies.



Sat, 12/03/2011 - 12:31 | 1941509 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Dont' forget the effect and cost in real world terms of faculty and staff that skews the curve to maintain the churn.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:19 | 1795491 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Crash the money. Crash the gov. Lots of consequences.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:16 | 1795623 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No, the implication of a debt jubilee is that there is a real and pervasive risk of another in the future, meaning higher interest rates and less borrowing by everyone.  This is a good thing.

Of course, we will have a debt jubilee, but it won't be so explicit.  Rather, we will simply have hyperinflation and a total monetary reset, just like every other time a nation-state has spent more than it has.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:33 | 1796045 JB
JB's picture

"the implication of a debt jubilee is that there is a real and pervasive risk of another in the future"

I'm not sure if it's an 'implication,' but Israel, where jubilee originated, practiced/celebrated it every fifty years. Every sixth year they would plant double, and every seventh year (the Sabbath year) the fields would lie fallow. At the conclusion of the 49 year 'week' (7 'weeks' of 7 years) would be the jubilee.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:48 | 1795170 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

A plumber who owns his own business is often making 80 to 90 thousand per year. Not too many people go into plumbing. All the non college bound want to be mechanics in my area.

Plumbing is the way to go.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:45 | 1795395 d_senti
d_senti's picture

Hey fellow ZHers, I'm considering going back to school and looking for some advice. I'm late twenties, wife and young son, and have a crappy security job. I live in North Dakota, where the economy isn't doing too badly.

I'd like a decent job. I've been considering going to a tech here/online (legit school), probably to get an accounting clerk certification. It'd take a year if I went balls to the walls full-time, but I could do it. I considered trades like plumbing, carpentry, mechanic, etc., but I'm partially disabled and so that makes those things very difficult.

I'm quite certain that student loans are a racket, and the fear of being stuck with a debt I can't ever discharge has discouraged me so far. To do it full time and as quickly as possible (maximizing value, as far as I can tell from the numbers I've checked), I'd have to quit my low-paying job, which means to get by I'd need to take out something like 10k for the year in loans. From what I've gathered, there are quite a few job opportunities for accounting clerks, so barring TEOTWAWKI, I'd be likely to find a job.

My question is: is it worth it? I've never been in serious debt before for anything (besides our mortgage, wife and I are debt-free). I've searched in vain for a decent-paying job for a year and a half (with multiple interviews that didn't pan out). I'm willing to work my butt off to provide for my family, and I'm a pretty smart guy. In the seventies, I'd have just found a decent job and worked my way up, but today? You need the piece of paper, no matter what you know or are willing to learn.

So what is your collective advice? Are there other fields you think I should enter instead? Is it worth the debt? We are dirt poor and save what we can (no movies, cable, eating out, etc.) but there's always something. That's life, and I'm fine with it, but it limits my options when it comes to saving up for anything, and the little savings I do have are in PMs for my SHTF collection (food, ammo, blah blah).

So let's hear it, and thanks to anyone who replies!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:14 | 1795473 Short Squeeze
Short Squeeze's picture

I think that would be a BIG mistake. You are going to spend a year in school, making no money, and have to pay back the student loan.  I dont see a whole lot of need for bookkeepers or accountants a year from now. Maybe i'm being pessimistic, but there are years worth of recent graduates still trying to get that same job you are looking at. All that debt with no guarantee of a job would scare the hell out of me.  I have a college education, but i ended up going into a skilled trade instead. I learned the ropes while getting paid, then started my own business. Even in this sucky economy, i'm still making 100k+ a year. Just my humble opinion.   I realize the disability limits your choices, but maybe there is a trade you could do? Good luck!


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:52 | 1795580 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

he's disabled?  Just collect free checks and spend your free time protesting and lobbying for more


why fight the rip tide?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:17 | 1795632 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Get a job as a debt collector.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:00 | 1795647 Janice
Janice's picture

No it is not worth it. Sorry, I got interrupted. I am a CPA and I do not recommend that you take an accounting clerk all, period, nada. You either pursur an accounting degree or don't bother. If you want to break into accounting, I recommend that you learn quickbooks. If I were counseling you, here's what I would suggest. Start applying for jobs as an accounting assistant. They will teach you all that you need to know. Look in the phonebook or google "associations" in your town. They usually have entry level jobs. Google bookkeepers and see if they have jobs. Work as an assistant, go to community college, get your two year AA and move on to university if you want. OR, work as an assistant, learn, move your way up. I worked with a lady who had a high school degree and was making 45k. You can make 35k - 85k with little more than an associates degree with experience. I do not recommend that you sit for your CPA, but you give it much consideration. I have found my CPA license to be more of a hinderence than help. Don't get into tax at all. Tax accounting and the preparation of tax return sucks. Lots of busy work, liitle reward.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:21 | 1795861 Janice
Janice's picture

Let me also say this. Happiness comes from being content with what you have. It's bad to say, but no one is ever satisfied. They always want more, work harder and are enslaved by their desires. With money and higher positions comes stress and anxiety. I hear you trying to eek out a living, but our current economic environment will not allow it. Only a few are "making it" and those that are usually spewing money like a leaky faucet. In one hand, out the other. If you had saved money, where would you put it? In the bank, you'd be lucky to get it back and inflation will eat it away over time. You are better off to reduce your cost of living than to make more money, for example, tracfone instead of verizon. Our cable goes full tilt during football season, but gets reduced to basic service from Feb - Aug. Your labor is money, money is precious, don't waste it. Lynard Skynard had it right, "Be a simple kinda man, be someone, you love and understand." And with that, you've heard the advice that I give my own family.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:05 | 1795931 d_senti
d_senti's picture

Hey, thanks everyone for the replies. Very much appreciated.

Short Squeeze, I definitely considered the backlog of graduates, and it makes me hesitant too. A trade would be possible if it were something that didn't require much for physical labor, but there is very little that falls into that category obviously. I'd love to learn a trade but I really don't think I'd be able to do it. Have any that fit the bill in mind?

Dark Pools, haha, that's one way to do it. But I'm not a leech; I'm getting by alright, and won't go on the government dole unless I'm a step away from homeless (and even that is pretty much only because I have a family to care for, as I'm opposed to most/all those programs on principle).

Ahmeexnal, no way I'm becoming an enforcer for the debt charade. But I'm sure there'll be work available!

Janice, thank you very much for your advice. If you'd be willing, I'd like to talk to you a bit more about it given your experience. Hate to have to do this, but given the lack of options, my email is my username above at hotmail. Please no one else spam me. And I entirely agree with being content with what you have. I'm not looking for big money; what we want is for my wife to be able to stay home so she can care for our son and home school him. I'm only looking to make something like half the median income to get by (minimum). Anything I saved above and beyond that goes to preparation (PMs, etc., as mentioned above).

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:17 | 1795949 Janice
Janice's picture

Will email....cabinet building is the only other thing that I can think of that is relatively within your parameters. Oh you know, my cousin is an electrician and he repairs elevators. Elevators have to be inspected every year. He is making 80K plus. No college, just pisses me off, but he's a smart, good guy. No boss on your back because he has to drive from location to location. Company truck to take home. Job can't be outsourced to China.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:18 | 1796022 defender
defender's picture

d_senti, you might want to consider machinist as a trade.  Most of the time is spent watching the machine to make sure that it doesn't screw up in the middle of the run.  Also in your favor, many of the people that are in the trade are baby boomers, which means that they will be hiring when you graduate.  After you have saved up some money, you can buy your own machine (they are cheap if the world is falling apart) and make a little cash on the side.  The only thing to watch out for is the sweat shops that think they own you. 

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:54 | 1796067 d_senti
d_senti's picture

That's very interesting, and would definitely be a useful skill in any environment. Do you have personal experience with this? I will absolutely look into it, thanks.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:03 | 1796075 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

FWIW, the vast majority of jobs listed around here are either CNC or RN. Both seem to have good placement out of college also. If you have any aptitude in either of those fields, or feel you might, explore them.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:08 | 1796076 defender
defender's picture

Sadly, my only experience is in passing.  My dad had a hobby machine shop when I was a kid, I wasn't smart enough then to take the time to learn the trade.  Every manufacturing plant has at least one machinist, and there are a lot of smaller shops that do mostly machine work.  I would suggest the manufacturing plants b/c they have better pay and benefits, and they usually treat their machinists well.  You can take classes from most of the community colleges, and you don't have to go full time to get a degree.  Also, once you get a few classes under your belt, you can switch jobs to something that uses the skills that you are learning.

Good luck to you.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:13 | 1796086 defender
defender's picture

Also, do anything CAD that you can get your hands on in college.  It is worth its weight in gold, and especially for a machinist.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 06:18 | 1796220 e-recep
e-recep's picture

It ain't that simple. Enemy is lurking outside. It is hungry, it is greedy, it is scrupulous. You constantly have to make progress to defend your being, your enemy never sleeps. And that progress comes with a price. You can't sit idle and hope to live happily ever after. 50's, 60's and 70's are long gone. It's time to fight for survival. Evolution never forgives species that are content with what they have.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 06:54 | 1796243 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

To give the private, corporate side of what Janice said.

I am a corporate controller for thrity two companies spread across California and Arizona (Nevada was shut down in 1992).  I passed my CPA exam however did not get licensed because I never had my minimum field audit work.

From what you said, I have to assume your around my vintage...50's or older, due to remarks about getting work in the 70's.

First, TAKE NO LOAN.  Student loans will rob you of ANY income you may scrape together.  I can attest it can be to the point where your bank account is frozen, liened...etc.  I found out the hard way because I didn't realize that I actually had two loans, to two similarly named accounts.  I went to school in my late 30's and got my associates, bachelors and most of an MBA in three years.

Second, I actually hire accounting clerks from time to time...but haven't since 2005.  If you were to come to work for me you would make about $30k per year, IN CALIFORNIA, and you probably wouldn't see any sort of raise until the economic crash reverses.  We haven't had a single wage/salary increase since 2007.

Avoid Health Care.  There are so many enrolled in health care there will be a glut in a couple of years.  On top of that, unless(until) Obamacare is repealed, lower echelon healthcare workers will be frozen in place wage-wise, and theere will be a mass of 'qualified' people to fill each position.  There was a time when I was a paramedic, though volunteer, and with my mom as the earliest family nurse practitioner with the first FNP clinic, along with step-mom and step sister in health's not something you want to do as an entry level geezer.

What you might want to think about is communications technology...fiber optic splicing, cablesystems monitoring...hands on stuff.  Alternatively, you might want to think about old cobbling (making shoes), tinsmithing, weaving...similar stuff.

If/when our fantasy economy collapses we're going to be in a weird sort of state where we have all this technology infrastructure but no basic skills to supply every day items.  Shoes, jeans, shirts, coffee pots, blankets and most everything else are imported these days.  I'm expecting that those imports will cease in a dramatic and sudden fashion.


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:18 | 1795484 Bumblebee Tuna
Bumblebee Tuna's picture

What might often be overlooked about schools is that it isn't the student loan itself that is a racket, but the tuition.

In my case, I attended a graphic art school.  Tuition was about 10k/year for the full time program, but after one semester it became clear that the only valuable information was in about 2 of the 6-7 courses within the program.  By the second semester I pulled out of full time and took the important courses as a part-time student.  It saved thousands.

This may not apply in your case, but I found school put a lot of filler 'fluff' in their programs to justify making it full time.  In the end, it just pads their pockets and causes students to have bloated student loan debt.

Maybe it doesn't occur so much in the accounting schools.  I think school can be really valuable if they remove the garbage.  A few good courses and the connections you make while attending will likely serve you well if you're motivated.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:59 | 1795594 davepowers
davepowers's picture

on top of the tuition racket is the college textbook racket. Eighty-ninety bucks for a thin, very thin, dog earred paper back. More for the dog earred hardbacks.

And then they change texts so you can't sell them back. or some massively overpaid prof issues a 'new edition' of his or her previously issued boring text. or so forth. 

And many of these texts are works that people would never buy if not required to buy. 

The college text book price bubble can't implode soon enough.


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:57 | 1795800 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

They have PDFs now so almost zero distrobution costs


you want cheap textbooks? go get a past version for quarter of the price and just copy over the corrections in the latest version.



Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:21 | 1795859 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

The little prince is used to wearing the season's latest A&F, lining up to buy the just released iDebt gadget....and you are asking him to buy older books?? G-d forbid you suggest he buy a *gasp* used book.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:52 | 1796065 d_senti
d_senti's picture

You're overgeneralizing (if that's a real word). I grew up with plenty of those d-bags, but I also grew up with plenty of people who are just as annoyed by it, including myself. Virtually everyone I know that went to a university - including those from rich families - bought used books when at all possible.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 03:12 | 1796138 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Because makig anything more than $150k a year for 50 something parents is considered too rich, so even the "rich" kid has to suffer. Also, no college gives you living costs which is probably $10k/year.


Plus parents might foot the bill for $30k undergrad, but when it comes to $200k law/med/MBA school, parents aren't going to pay and neither the government or the school. It is all on the kid's debt books.


So in the context of hundreds of thousands of dollars, $50 A&F shirt to last you 4 years is nothing. That's like two days of taxes saved by not paying in California for illegal aliens.







Fri, 10/21/2011 - 04:44 | 1796184 d_senti
d_senti's picture

No idea who you're talkin to, but it ain't me. I just said that not all people my age are gadget-obsessed spoiled brats. They're just the most prominent.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 05:24 | 1796197 Mr Kurtz
Mr Kurtz's picture

Back in the day when I was in college, I always purchased textbook directly from the publishing house. I would go to the college bookstore, copy the ISBN numbers and then make the call. Could count on anywhere from a 25-50 percent price break. Even snagged a few "Teacher Editions" and "Solution Manuals".

My wife is currently finishing her Master's and has saved a boat load of cash by downloading textbooks directly from KINDLE. Many for only $9.99 a pop. It takes time but there are ways to get around the greedy bastards.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:45 | 1795908 Janice
Janice's picture

Agreed Bumblebee, but the real pain there is often, you have to have pre-requisites to take the courses that you want. Also, you have to fight the advisors who want to keep you coming back.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:11 | 1795943 d_senti
d_senti's picture

I agree with school being mostly fluff. That's why I want to focus on a hard, practical skill, like accounting. It significantly cuts down on the excess, as the so-called "soft-sciences" have become groupthink echo chambers. Any alternative viewpoints are quickly dismissed.

I would argue, however, that the student loan racket is directly tied to the tuition racket. It's the same as subprime; you throw around a lot of easy credit and you'll send prices through the roof. Healthcare, school, housing, treasuries, and on and on, all a consequence of easy money from TPTB.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:19 | 1795488 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

None of the normal financial planning rules apply in these screwed up financial times.  The question is - do you just want to make more $$?  Then, skip the school and buy commodities, gold and silver.  Learn hedging techniques.  If you actually want the education, then take out the loans, take out more and buy gold if they let you, and wait for the hyperinflation to hit.

I went seriously in debt for my education, looking back it was the best investment ever.  What looked like a ton of cash back then seems like nothing serious now.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:20 | 1795640 Deadpool
Deadpool's picture

I hear Apple has an opening for chief P.R. dude.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:02 | 1795813 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

That job went to some Chinese college kid for $1 /hour because Steve Jobs didn't want to pay American living wage.

Instead of factory worker suiciders jumping off of corprote dorms, we will have white collar worker suiciders jumping off of high rises.


Steve Jobs was an ass for giving us some new toys and wants everyone else to be a workaholic like him.

His father was a jerk too.

He wrote the book because he loved his company more than his family and wanted his kids to learn about their father from a freaking book.


Corporate execs attract jerks who don't give  a shit abotu any normal human beings and want money money money.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:38 | 1795681 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

A tip you may or may not have considered yet, look into CLEP tests and other forms of self-guided study. 77 bucks for the test, you can find all the information you need to learn to pass the tests online for free, and if you pass you get between 3-8 credit hours per test accepted at most schools. Most schools allow up to 32 credit hours from CLEP, some up to 64. Thats two years worth of worthless core classes you can knock out for a couple hundred bucks. After that get your max Pell grants for the classes you'll actually use. If you stay in-state and work part-time you should be able to get by student loan free for the most part. At least I did. Another thing to consider is lengthening out your timeline a little. You dont get a larger Pell Grant for taking more courses and you sacrifice your ability to work part time and spend time with your family if you take too many courses. Take your 13 credit hours required for max Pell Grants but theres no need to take 19 to finish sooner when you can just stay in for an extra semester and get those credit hours covered by more grant money. 

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 04:42 | 1796183 d_senti
d_senti's picture

Not a bad call if I'm looking to maximize how much I can get from grants, but in my mind it's important to get a skill and a job ASAP. I see things turning south very soon. If it turns a little south (depression), having a job means I have a good chance of riding it out (if I'm not fired of course, but getting hired during a depression isn't easy). If it goes very south, then it's not gonna matter either way, right?

CLEP is definitely a smart choice though. Yet another bit of good advice. This is why I brought it up on ZH instead of anywhere else: smart people, different ideas, no rose-colored glasses and no mainstream "college is a universal good" mentality.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:57 | 1795714 Stevious
Stevious's picture

Make a ficticious name, get a ficticious email.

Research and create a decent accounting clerk resume.

Send 100 out to appropriate potential hirers.

Count the interested responses.  If greater than 5, go for it.

If zero, you're being misled.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:30 | 1796111 batterycharged
batterycharged's picture


That's what I have done. You can't base job demand on want ads, because you don't know how many of then are bogus and how many get 1000 applicants per.

You can also call HR departments and ask how many applicants they get.

I bailed on nursing when I was told by an HR rep that there were a ton of fresh applicants for the few jobs they had.

It's very difficult finding a career niche now. And the outrageous cost of college makes it a huge gamble that you don't want to lose.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:58 | 1795715 Stevious
Stevious's picture

Sorry double post

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:53 | 1795791 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture



  • 1) go to adult school
  • 2) take quikBooks course
  • 3) self-paced, if possible, but w/ a good instructor (there are many)
  • 4) get to work, BiCh!
Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:58 | 1795802 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

check this out!

presidential candidate ralphie-boy nader endorses presidential candidate ron paul-introduced bill HR 1831: Let It Grow 

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:24 | 1795870 fuu
fuu's picture

It's almost a match made in heaven.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:59 | 1795806 John Wayne
John Wayne's picture

Hey fellow ZHers, I'm considering going back to school and looking for some advice. My question is: is it worth it? So let's hear it, and thanks to anyone who replies!


I'm Going to Kill Myself Tonight

I haven't worked a steady job in 3 years. I don't have any savings, I don't have a car, I don't have a home, and I no longer have a sense of basic human dignity, nor even the frail hope that I will someday be able to regain it. I tossed around the idea of robbing and stealing all week, but I guess I'm not cut out for it. All I have is a bad credit score, a pile of inescapable student debt, and until about 5 minutes ago the last handful of Oxycontin I had after trading away my pistol for it 2 weeks ago(so I wouldn't shoot myself. Turns out I'm not a good drug dealer either).

Although I only recently became a member, I have been reading this blog for a long time. It has been one of the only consistent bright spots in my life. I can't sit back anymore and watch my country and the people in it dissolve into nothingness at the hands of the kleptocracy. I've spent many sleepless nights contemplating bringing my own justice to the pillagers and murderers of Wall Street and Washington, but that would only give them more power. But...YOU BASTARDS ARE KILLING US! WE ARE OUT HERE STARVING! Someone not quite as fearful of God WILL come along and take no mercy on you or your families if you don't change your ways. That NASDAQ breach should be a wake-up call.

Normal people, the poor and middle class families you lying psychopaths pretend to care about whenever there's a microphone nearby, have been taking to the streets for over a month now. It is time to stop spending money on wars nobody here wants, and stop giving "aid" to countries that hate us when there are people at home with NOTHING! Stop giving your bankster friends BAILOUTS while the average person goes to the JAILHOUSE for speaking up. It is time you spineless hawks and gutless hogs stop spending OUR -LITERAL- blood, sweat, tears in ways that only serve to enrich you and your den of thieves. If you can print up trillions of dollars to hand foreign banks and wall street pimps, no strings attached, why do you have to tax US(A) to death? Let WE THE PEOPLE keep our money! LET US HAVE A FAIR CHANCE AT SUCCESS!

I don't have anyone to say goodbye to, so that's why this is here. Thank you Zero Hedge for being a voice of reason in a batshit insane world. Thank you to all the members for, if nothing else, being one step ahead of most. I hope there are many more people out there who WON'T succumb to weakness as I have.

PS - It's not worth it.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:19 | 1795853 Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Don't off yourself yet.  Aren't you the least bit curious to see if the Fed is still around after 12/21/12?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:27 | 1795875 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

You know you could fight your student loan debt through debt validation letters. 

I wouldn't just give up on life, things get better if you make it better. Just my two cents.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:08 | 1795928 Janice
Janice's picture

I swear, I know what you are going through, there are a shit-load of people in your same place. I'm not trying to pander religion, but you may want to find a church. It seems like you have morals & standards, maybe you need to surround yourself with like-minded people. I know that people aren't always cool in church, but there are some good churches, with a few good people left. Visit several churches before you commit to one. It's not always about the offering plate.

I always get upset when someone talks about suicide. In my mind, suicide is a hollow act. There is someone out there who desperately needs YOU, whether it is a companion, a friend, or a child who needs a mentor. It is your responsibility to seek that person out, to complete your life by bettering theirs. I swear, I've know so many people who have committed suicide, but if they'd just waited, one day, one week, one month, one year or five years, their life would have been ok.

Life sucks and it's not fair. But ending your life without fufilling your purpose sucks and is unfair also.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:48 | 1795990 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

He's sick of the student debt racket...and you want him to fall into the religion racket?

He has lost all his you want him to lose his soul too??


Fri, 10/21/2011 - 09:13 | 1796449 Janice
Janice's picture

Against my better judgement, I will respond to your comment. Not religion so much as the Bible. And where do you study the Bible? In church. Look, I am certainly not a religious zealot. Religion has been use to kill multitudes. But what do you believe and where do you find confirmation of your beliefs? I believe that all things happen for a reason. Ultimately, I believe in justice, that truth will prevail. So where do you find those two concepts, justice and a reason? Well, I know where I won't find them. I won't find them in our legal system, not in our President, not in the schools, not in our military, not at work, not in my spouse, kids or parents, not in Greek mythology, not in drugs, not in psychology, not in Freud, not in Einstein, not the government. There's a long list of places where you find no reason and no justice. Those are Biblical concepts.

So, what do you believe and where do you find confirmation of that belief? If you believe that it dog eat dog, and survival of the fittests, then by all
means don't let my beliefs deter your path. Keep doing what you've been doing, you are on the right track to confirm your beliefs. Eventually, you'll be eaten by a bigger, stronger, better dog. Eventually I'll be eaten by a bigger, stronger, better dog. But for me, it will have happened for a reason and ultimately the appropiate party will have justice, whether it's them or me.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:09 | 1795938 Banksters
Banksters's picture

I love you.  We'll make it.  Don't give up.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:03 | 1796008 The_Nihilist
The_Nihilist's picture

You are just saying that to keep extracting money from him you evil banker!

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:20 | 1795953 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Man, if you read this, reply back. There are some good people in this world. Some people that have been where you are and would like to help.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:22 | 1795957 d_senti
d_senti's picture

John Wayne, as this is an internet message board, it's sometimes hard to tell whether or not someone is being serious. But if you are, then don't do it. You may not have any present hope in the current system (and for that I can hardly blame you) but there are other options. My worst-case scenario consideration is to fall back to friends and family, together in a household, and spread the costs of living. You can form a community, or join one, that can provide support, and you wouldn't have to play the game anymore.

There's also the hope that things will, finally, start to change. We have dark days ahead of us, but who knows what will come out of that? You and all of the informed out there have a part to play in that, maybe even a big part.

My generation has a lot of problems. There's no denying it. And I worry that it will, quite frankly, turn to communism as the answer to our problems, on account of its sense of entitlement and hatred of perceived capitalism. But there is an element to our character which is different than any other generation since WW2. We are ready for big changes. We are ready to watch the world burn to end the current corruption (at least for a time). This is why we see OWS, the Tea Party, Anonymous, and whatever comes next.

The system that is irredeemably corrupt will not survive our coming to adulthood. Some new corruption may replace it, but something better might too. And we need men like you in the fight to come, whether it be ideological or more literal. So don't give up; realize you're a soldier in a war of ideas. You are among the casualties of this war. But you can still see it through, and help to make a better world come out of it.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 05:01 | 1796189 Element
Element's picture

To that I would add that you can also learn, to your ecstatic delight, of things you never suspected were possible, and real.

Don't do it.

Curse if you must, scream and demand better treatment, and a just world, if you must, in fact, UNRESERVEDLY DEMAND IT

But please don't waste yourself, just because of the venal stupidity has crushed your lesser part. There is a greater inside you, and you must let it come out.

I wish I could make this less glib, but have faith ... not religious faith in a nebulous arcane figure or belief ... but faith in life's very process, and why you're part of this life.

It's your greatest gift, use it, anyway you wish, just use it, and let it use you.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:03 | 1796009 Coldfire
Coldfire's picture

Everyone has their limit of suffering. But think about suicide from a different angle. Imagine you killed yourself and life just went on for those around you. I'm not saying this to be mean, but to encourage you to get out of your own head. Probably the best thing you can do right now is get to a doctor for some Prozac or similar SSRI. It really helps. Life can be beautiful. Don't let it go.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:24 | 1796029 tgeorge
tgeorge's picture


Reading your post, has disturbed me beyond words.

Many reading this have to feel helpless, in realizing there is a chance you will (or have) followed through, and there is nothing we can collectively do.

There are highs and lows in life, very few things last forever, they get better and worse and better again and worse.

Nothing is certain.

Some things are irreversible. We hope you are reading the posts, and you are ok. There will be many bad days ahead either way, mixed with some good.

I am more than willing to help in any way, if you want, just ask....




Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:35 | 1796048 I think I need ...
I think I need to buy a gun's picture

Are you young? Good health? Physically Fit? Get in a car or bus and drive to North  and South Dakota. Find work in the Balkin oil share area, there are people sleeping in their cars there. I'm not saying sleep in a car there but my understanding is there are jobs there. Most americans won't do it, I have a business most people would not do, thats why its partially sucessful. But if you agree to get your hands dirty for 4-5 years by then things will be a little better. If you don't like the cold go to texas and try there. Remember you don't need a cell phone, you really don't need a car, you don't need ONE FUCKIN thing except food, temporary shelter and work. Alot of these jobs are 80K a year.......If you can get dirty for a few years it feels great rather than pushing paper around......McDonalds in Balkin area starts at 15 plus an hour......

if your on oxy get go get clean for a month useing the "system"

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:49 | 1796059 d_senti
d_senti's picture

I live in eastern ND and I can tell you that they are hiring by the boatload out west. My cousins and aunt live in Williston, and the town has literally doubled in size in the last 3 years from all the people hired to do work out there. I'd do it myself if I could, because it pays great. I have a buddy who went out there in 04 and has ridden the boom afterward; he makes 70k a year as a high school graduate now.

Cost of living is also lower and we have the lowest unemployment in the nation, and in the paper nearly every day I see job openings for most trade skills if you have one. And this is in a city of 60k. The options are there; look online, apply for some jobs and tell them you're moving into the area. Heck, if it's nearby, You can come over for a barbecue. Life's not all bad.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:16 | 1796090 I think I need ...
I think I need to buy a gun's picture

one more thing, most people are broke, even the ones living in the big homes. My neighbors are broke my friends are broke all they have is debt.  Life is what you make of it. I have a house and I haven't contributed one fuckin thing to this economy is 4 years except for my kids events. Otherwise I sit here do my business and watch tv staring at the fuckin wall and I'm fuckin happy supporting the precious metals dealers. I won't even drive the car thats cash to buy metals.  The system is definitely stacked against the common person even if you can't break into a fortune 500 company and kiss ass for 10 years to become CEO assistant you can go have a life near a mining town, oil town or agriculture town. Simple man. Keep it simple and you need to get the fuck off the OXY if your not taking it for pain that will not help you pick a new location to resume a new life, new people, they win another fuckin suicide if you do it and that pisses me off. Do you know how many murder suicides there are everyday in this country because of this banking cartel. Fuck them. Use google and find the location where you are headed. I'm telling you Dakotas............

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:48 | 1796058 quacker
quacker's picture

Yes but the banksters are going to keep on robbing even if you are gone.

Think about US!

Don't leave us here to fight them alone. You're an intelligent person, we could use you in a fight. Hang around and help us PLEASE! We are stronger with you than without you.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:00 | 1796073 dalkrin
dalkrin's picture

Most days we readers and posters on this blog are able to put a humorous, cynical spin on the fundamentally serious subject matter that so affects our lives, but which we have so very little power to influence.  We try to joke about it, so we don't go insane.

In this instance, I'd like to step out and make a direct human appeal to you that you ought to refrain from ending it.

About 8 years ago, I was in a similar situation.  I had been spiraling downwards for some months, and finally reached a point where I had given up on the life meme.  Thankfully my chosen method was not violent, and I pulled myself out in time. 

Life has since improved dramatically for me in the past years.  My once solid arguments against living were found to be flawed.

I realize your situation seems bleak.  I know I was in a world of pain and ennui after having spent only 6 months jobless and discouraged, while also in a different country. 

Seeing a doctor/psychologist would be best, but in the meantime you have people here you can turn to.

If you see no other options at present, be homeless, use food banks, but just survive.  Make your way to OWS, you will find sympathy and warmth to your plight.  Don't let the banks win:  they are conducting both economic and psychological crimes against the remainder of us. 

You have intrinsic worth, you are not your job.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:09 | 1796078 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

yeah, its worth it....

ive learned from zh....and from you...

are you going to deny people, the ones who dont know what its all about, the truth....

you are not alone...were here....and we need to learn more....

dont deny it, dont cheat yourself....and dont cheat us....

yeah, its tough, but your tougher than this...

besides...its in the end game, its almost over..

i know it, as you do, just walk alittle further...

lets see it together...

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 04:02 | 1796169 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

Agree with this, and the many posts above it.

Get on youtube, and search for "New Radicals You Get What You Give", and listen, really listen to it.

I've had my moments of despair, too, and I find music - everything from Beethoven's 3rd to Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros "Johnny Appleseed" - restores my soul, and gives me strength for another day. Sometimes you need a little anger to rev you up - "Adam Raised A Cain" by the Boss, or "Know Your Rights" by the Clash will help there. Sometimes you need a little perspective - "Turn, Turn, Turn" by the Byrds, or "Do You Realize" by the Flaming Lips. Sometimes you need a little spur - "Freedom of Choice" by Devo, or "Walk On" by Neil Young. You can find all these free on youtube, and then follow the links to related music. I promise, in an hour, your dark mood will pass.

Good luck to you, my friend.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 04:04 | 1796171 mephisto808
mephisto808's picture

My brother, do not do it. Stay here and fight the good fight.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 05:33 | 1796200 Mr Kurtz
Mr Kurtz's picture

You gotta hang in their brother, we've all contemplated traveling that long lonesome road at one time or another. On a lighter side, what better reason to hang in there then to occasionally "eyeball" the ta-tas on vic vinegar's avatar!

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 06:30 | 1796229 e-recep
e-recep's picture

Join the Occupy movement.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:18 | 1796083 bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

College is worth it if you can figure out how to do it without borrowing money.  With a wife and kid in these times its going to be very tough.  In the 1960s a family could live well off the wages of one working adult.  Today you need 2 people just to make ends meet.  You should consider moving into to somebody's parent's home.  3 generations under one roof will be the new (old) normal.

These days it seems everyone has a bachelor's degree.  In terms of education, one needs a masters or professional degree just to set themselves apart from the pack.  Some of the comments about cpa are on the money.  I took all my extra cpa course work via ucla online.  got to the end and then decided that cpa was not for me - too restrictive. get a bootleg copy of quickbooks and be a subbookkeepper on craiglist.

Nobody gets rich working for someone else.  If you can swing college, great.  But understand that going to college in North Dakota will be like becoming World famous in Poland.  Its not Oxford baby.  Outside of ND, your degree is not going to mean much to anyone. Skills do matter.  Think about being a locksmith. It dove tails with your guard card.  The fascist apocalypse needs a few good men.  Keep a clean record and the world is yours.  DHS on the Canadian border.     A few years of apprentice work and you get a van and a bond and hit the high road.  If times get tough you can always be a thief.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 04:25 | 1796178 d_senti
d_senti's picture

Locksmith isn't a bad idea. I'll look into it.

My concern with the piece of paper isn't about acquiring the skills. I'm a reasonably intelligent person with a strong motivation to provide for my family, I got a perfect 36 on the math section of my ACT, took all the advanced classes in high school, have a small amount of bookkeeping experience...the skills aren't an issue. The issue is the piece of paper, which in my experience is seen by your typical employer as a plus. Why, I have no idea, as many people finish college without having a friggin clue about how to work, think critically, learn new skills, operate independently, etc. But there it is. They want a piece of paper, so if I have to jump through that hoop, then I will.

I'm not on the best of terms with my immediate family, and my wife's family lives many states away. I have very close friends, but I wouldn't impose upon them unless it was absolutely necessary. We could cram more people in here though; I've suggested renting our spare room out to the missus, but she'd rather not if we can avoid it. I suspect, like many, that it may eventually come to that (moving in with friends/family) for many/most of us, at which time I will do so.

I know a degree from ND isn't worth much, but it's either a mentality issue or a liability issue for employers. Could save myself a lot of effort and lie, but I don't lie. My record is squeaky clean (never even a speeding ticket). I wouldn't steal either, with the sole possible exception of food from some dictator-type when we're starving. Yes, by the way, I was a boy scout.

Locksmith matches up with machinist suggested above in that they are useful skills in any scenario. That is very appealing to me. ND will never have a shortage of food if we aren't overrun by marauding hordes, so a tradable skill would be a major boon.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 03:41 | 1796158 GoNavy
GoNavy's picture

In heaven's name, why are you "barring TEOTWAWKI"?

Seems like a bad assumption to me so long as Barry O'bamanation is running thigs....

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 04:29 | 1796180 d_senti
d_senti's picture

Haha, I'm not barring TEOTWAWKI. I see it as a real possibility. I also see it as a possibility that in some areas, things may be (relatively) normal-ish, with life operating on a local level. Any skillset useful at that time means I'm interested. So lawyer/art major is out, but locksmith/machinist is in. My goal is to plan two lives which overlap as much as possible: my "depression" life where things are semi-normal, and my TEOTWAWKI life where I stockpile, prep, and learn useful skills.

BAU life isn't a legit possibility in my mind anymore.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 06:15 | 1796222 zerotosixty
zerotosixty's picture

Don't do it...  what ever you think you'l pay when you are done will more than double if it's not paid off within 5 yrs. This is speaking from experience.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 10:09 | 1796825 GoatETF
GoatETF's picture

but I'm partially disabled and so that makes those things very difficult.

So what type of diability do you have? Something that makes longer, physical work hard...problems with lifting. Some more detail might help with some direction on blue collar work, if it is an option.

Many good recommendations in the follow-up comments and I would agree with the ones that encourage you that some courses might give you the necessary training without the full degree. No degree here but work as a consultant in I.T. Went to a 6 month intense I.T. training that I didn't finish because it was apparent continuing was not going to help. Applied for jobs and had accepted a position within a week. By living extremely frugally, made enough in my first 6 months to pay off school.

Have you considered something outside the box? For example there may be needs in your community that are not being met currently and require minimal training. If you're looking for a job then you go the route everyone else is going but if you look for opportunities around you they abound if you keep your eyes open. One example that seems to be prevelant in many places is a shortage of people to work with geriatrics on things such as computer training, caring in-home care, etc. My wife gets offered a p/t job at least every 4 months from people during her meals on wheels deliveries. In our case we found demand is far outstripping supply at the farmer's markets around us so we've been raising things on our acreage that people need most and are getting paid top $$ for doing it. At the rate we're going I'll probably be walking away from my job in the next 5 years. We're building it slow and debt free which takes longer but my risks are much lower.

Mon, 01/16/2012 - 05:41 | 2068186 kall
kall's picture

You may have some options but you'll have to think them all through to fit your situation. I'll tell you what I did to avoid a student loan: I applied for an online mba degree and now I am about to get it. After these years I don't regret my decision, in fact I am quite happy that I found the solution. Something tells me that the next years will register an exponential growth of the online education options.

Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:50 | 2202118 A82EBA
A82EBA's picture

I recommend the opposite. I'm in my late 40s, went to work as an electrician's apprentice 20 yrs ago and have worked as journeyman electrician since. Just now taking courses to get Electrical Engineer B.S. so in two yrs I'll have 20 yrs real-world experience AND a brand-new up-to-date relevant degree as a 50 yr old. Good luck to you.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:09 | 1795459 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

The party will happen with hyperinflation.......when the debts are essentially wiped away because of government incompetence.

What is $200K in debt when a loaf of bread costs that much?

Get the loans, get the education, nobody can take the education away from you!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:22 | 1795646 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

It's not education. It's conditioning.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:38 | 1795680 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

It's both. If you have a curious mind attending university can be an intellectual renaissance.

Sat, 10/22/2011 - 13:35 | 1800135 aleksbel
aleksbel's picture

but what if someone owes 4 loafs of bread?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:08 | 1795727 Michael
Michael's picture

There should be a specific  minimum age limit when an individual can declare bankruptcy on student loan debt, say at 35 years old.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:50 | 1795916 Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

So now you are for big government, ruling every aspect of our lives? ;-)

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:45 | 1795987 ForTheWorld
ForTheWorld's picture

I'm fairly sure that Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan et. al. were allowing government funds to flow for things such as student loans as well. Lets just blame everything on the current president though.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:50 | 1795993 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

I bet you a buck you voted for Ogolfer.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:57 | 1796003 ForTheWorld
ForTheWorld's picture

I'm not a US citizen, so I had no need or desire to vote for him. I'm just pointing out a problem with your argument.

edit: Can you send that buck via paypal? You'll need to pay the fee of course.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 04:31 | 1796182 d_senti
d_senti's picture

Nobody here is blaming Obama exclusively. The big concern with student loans, however, is that they recently became almost entirely federalized, which happened under Obama. So yeah, if you had to pick just one guy...

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 00:10 | 2285966 jaffa
jaffa's picture

In a loan, the borrower initially receives or borrows an amount of money, called the principal, from the lender, and is obligated to pay back or repay an equal amount of money to the lender at a later time. Typically, the money is paid back in regular installments, or partial repayments, in an annuity, each installment is the same amount. Thanks.
Garage Door Aliso Viejo

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:39 | 1795111 Jay Gould Esq.
Jay Gould Esq.'s picture

Spoken like a true frat boy behind in his payment to Nels.

College is a privilege, not a right. Plan - i.e., lay the groundwork for financing - accordingly. I, for one, do not want my tax dollars going to subsidize some deadbeat grad living in Mom's basement, whining about how the "banksters" made him sign for a student loan.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:44 | 1795141 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Yup, I'm just sitting in my mom's basement. No debt here, fucktard.

But is it the fault of the college administrators and professors and government subsidizers and bankers and big corporate HR departments (making a degree a requirement for any old job) OR is it the fault of some 17 year old kid who's just listening to all of the adults around them?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:10 | 1795269 Jay Gould Esq.
Jay Gould Esq.'s picture

It appears we have struck a nerve with young, ranting Trader Joe, alone in the family cellar.

Your rubbish merits no serious response, as you seem to preface your comments with various epithets from the Urban Dictionary, "fucktard."

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:37 | 1795358 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

You assume much. Why would an anarchist want to subsidize others? And boy do I wish I was young. But to break down the system I'm happy to have that benefit others in a Jubilee.

And the only us v them I believe in is the ppl v the bankers.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 01:10 | 1796012 The_Nihilist
The_Nihilist's picture

traderjoe have you read "Debt: The first 5000 years" by David Graeber? I just started it, seems like a good book. The author is an anarchist and helped start the OWS movement. 

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:20 | 1796097 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

I'll check it out, Thx!

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 02:56 | 1796122 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

@ Jay Gould


I agree that what many students did was foolish, including myself. But having realized that just like in the case of mortage loans, students loans are also built on fraud I feel no remorse about what I did today. To be honest the entire system is built on fraud when one group or individuals has the power to create money, and others do not. 

I do not live in my parents basement. I have a wife and a son. I work for 12 dollars an hour full time and half my income goes to rent. I refuse to pay any of the student loan alleged "debt" not because I did not receive a benifit but because no loss was suffered on part of the creditor. It is even self evident by the very fact that the loans are promissory notes, and are unilateral. The very nature of a contract is that an obligation is made, and it is witnessed by both parties. In a unilateral contract only one party, the signatory, is making an obligation or witnessing the event. I have tired countless times to collect information about the origination of the "loans" and not a single shred of evidence is ever presented. I only ever receive in response a copy of the original contract which is not in of itself evidence of a loss. I was actually told in person from a woman who worked at a State University that was trying to collect money from me that the money did not come from the University but came from a pool of money provided by the federal government.

I understand where you are coming from when you think that people who borrowed need to pay, but money is debt, all they borrowed was money that was created from their own signature. If we were using gold and silver as money I would agree with you, but we are using fucking paper. So get off your high horse and realize what it is, its a fucking scam. 

And another point if I may add, what the fuck is the federal government doing loaning money to people with no income, and why is the debt secured. Talk about fucked up. Student loans are the only debt you can not walk away from. And talk about a shitty thing to do to young people, they push college and taking on student loan debt in high school constantly, not to mention the fact that if you asked a teenager what they would rather do, go to college and sign here or go work full time to barely make ends meet for a few years till you moved up? Teenagers are not thinking about starting careers and families so the whole idea of working to make money is not even considered. I am not defending the stupidity of it, simply pointing out that when you are young and horny you make a lot of stupid choices. 

Most teenagers do not know what they want to do, don't know how easy it is to get a good paying job out of high school if they just have the desire to work, and just want to party to give two shits. Student loans to a teenager are like offering children candy, they won't say no. 

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:43 | 1795386 rbg81
rbg81's picture

Even a 17 year old can figure out what college degrees are worth the expense and which aren't,  If they can't, well maybe.....they don't BELONG IN COLLEGE.  In truth, many of those in college right now shouldn't be there.  Everyone knows this, especially the Professors.  But its all about getting asses in seats.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:37 | 1795540 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

A 17 year old indoctrinated by the educational system?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:25 | 1795654 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

You want awareness spoon fed to you?


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:34 | 1795671 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture


It would help if people would help spoon feed others then maybe with practice they could learn to feed themselves.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:28 | 1795755 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

I believe the media, the government, the banks, the multi-national corporations, and the educational complex are in on a vast conspiracy to create debt-slaves. With those powerful forces aligned, I don't blame 17-year olds for not understanding. They don't even teach home economics anymore, much less the present value of investments (the value of an education).

These threads, imho, bring out this meme of blame the irresponsible. Ppl seem to be really invested in this us v. them. But the real evil is the monetary fraud all around us.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:48 | 1795991 ForTheWorld
ForTheWorld's picture

 @Ahmeexnal - So you burst forth from the womb carrying your own silver spoon and a copy of "How to be fuckin' awesome" by I. M. A. Sphyncter? 

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:58 | 1795224 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

sure college is a privilege when secretaries reequire college degrees.


how much did you pay for your law degree esquire?

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:10 | 1795828 trav7777
trav7777's picture

mine cost me like 70k in debt?  I came out owing like 100k, undergrad plus grad...staggering sum but nothing at all compared to what others were obliged for and little compared to what grads now emerge with for similar educations.

There's always the option of lying on your resume.  Congressmen do it all the fuckin time

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:09 | 1795265 NumberNone
NumberNone's picture

Apparently Mom is claiming she has a son in the basement going to college...even when he's not.  Over $3 Billion in college student tax credits were wrongly given out last year.  Interestingly enough the program that is causing the is issue is the American Opportunity Tax Credit, created in President Barack Obama's $825 billion economic stimulus law of 2009 as an expansion of the Hope Scholarship Tax Credit.   I'm sure it had good that makes it all right.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:44 | 1795557 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

$3 Billion is what 1% of what was wasted on AIG?

Lot's of money wasted on higher education. Far too many colleges and students but the big bucks are sucked up by the white collar fraud emanating from Wall St types.


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:23 | 1795313 rwl160
rwl160's picture

Thank God i became a plumber...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:01 | 1795599 oddjob
oddjob's picture

Excellent ground work.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:04 | 1795817 TheMerryPrankster
TheMerryPrankster's picture

Colds on the right, hots on the left and shit flows downhill.

Plumbing 101

That said, it takes talent to sweat a joint and not burn up the subfloor. Plumbing 'bots will probably be the last thing invented.

When the water don't work anymore, folks get panicky and pay whatever you ask. You can't outsource it and so far the illegals haven't tried to move into the trade.

Honest work and when you're done, you can see what you did and people can use it, unlike software where nobody knows wtf you did and in a year it will be obsolete or thrown away cause management decides they want a different system.

To plumbers, long may they plumb.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 03:39 | 1796156 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Beats the septic truck driver that came out today to empty the tank. That guy takes shit from everybody!(it is steady work though)

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 03:20 | 1796142 saiybat
saiybat's picture

I wouldn't even consider college a privilege. It's something you're compelled to pay for to get that seal of approval. It's a racket and a ponzi scheme. Who would have thought a product quality stamp would be worth 100k? They draw people in just like a ponzi does and that's what it is; pay in your 100k and make 2 million. It's a pyramid scheme too because the people that got in decades ago it actually paid off. The recruiters get their little commission from every high school sucker that takes the bait (the commission probably goes to pay off their own debt). Now you're just shit out of luck and stuck paying compound interest for the rest of your life after you've been promised the world. The only people making any money is those at the top of the pyramid and they'll bleed it out of you thanks to collaboration with the government to garnish your wages.

If you're still paying for an indoctrination see Walras' law and cut your losses. Drop out and don't think for a minute that college isn't an investment. It is and you might as well buy and hold on Dexia. You don't need no education.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:33 | 1795082 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

college degrees are worth nothing. What is the average debt for professional/graduate degrees that gets you a real job?


dental schools are $300,000!!!! guess what these dentists are going to do once they get out? They are going to rip you off so that they can pay back the loans!!! So will lawyers, MBAs, doctors, etc.


It is amazing that boomers were brainwashed into thinking that inflation doesn't affect them while they saw shitty house for $200k turn into $500k making them believe that they are rich now and should vote for Bush back in 2004.


They didn't realize that they did so at the cost of their children's future who will now pay $100k for college instead of $10k and if they have more than one child, each child will have to pay the doubled up housing costs while wages are stagnant and paying back quadrupled student loans which they can't even walk away.


DUMB AMERICANS, now boomers want their kids taxed more to pay for obamacare and their pensions.


Young Americans better move out. Look at Japan and Europe. They are screwed for decades. Going to school until their mid 30s. Two tiered unions. Two tiered pensions if any. Unaffordable assets. Things won't get better unless there is a civil war!

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:40 | 1795121 I think I need ...
I think I need to buy a gun's picture

hey these colleges need brand new sports facilities so they can play in the rose bowl

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:55 | 1795201 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

have you seen the salaries of these colleges' administrators?


Not professors, but paper pushing administrators make way more then $200k/ year with near guarantee of job security like a government job.


And sure, football coaches get paid millions while MIT phD guy running a cancer cure lab gets maybe $120k/year. That MIT brain better use it to optimize football playbook than curing cancer because Americans put more emphasis on entertainment than any scientific progress besides war machines.





Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:55 | 1796001 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Haven't been to a fuckin dentist in years.

Besides ripping you off, they will pour poison into your system.



Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:58 | 1795204 HCSKnight
HCSKnight's picture

Huxley, your spot on points are diminished by stupid calls to civil war.

The fact is, and politicians know this, IF people have a house over their head, a big screen TV, an XBox and can get a Big Mac they become SHEEPLE.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:06 | 1795252 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

TV, XBox, Big Mac may work for a while, but like southern Europe and JApan. When these unemployeed but degreed twenty somethings age into 30s and 40s and still no house, probably even more debt from some other degree that promised a job, no marriage or family, xbox isnt' going to cut it for 30 year olds. And what will they do when their parents get laid off in their 50s and 60s?


Plus what about teenagers now. They are going to hit their twenties with same bullshit with even greater debt and less hope.


When interest rates go up cutting off debt for all this spending....That's when things get explosive.




Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:13 | 1795274 john39
john39's picture

sooner or later people realize that they have been deprived of something far more important, their freedom.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:32 | 1795350 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

isn't it ironic that JP MOrgan Chase's credit card is themed "FREEDOM"?


Freedom for what? to buy useless junk and get in debt? freedom to become a debt slave? Being stupid is always free and educated costs arm and a leg.



Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:13 | 1795836 TheMerryPrankster
TheMerryPrankster's picture

Nobody was using them when they called them "SLAVE CARDS" - bad marketing move. 1st rule of propaganda always call it the opposite of what it really is.

Patriot Act - use a bunch of drones to group the public and wiretap anyone anywhere anytime and oh yeah declare a citizen a threat and imprison them without a warrant or a hearing. Can't seem to find the patriot part in there.

Bringing Democracy to Iraq - I still giggle when I hear that phrase.

Know Your Customer - Banking program that requires banks to profile all their customers and report any suspicous transactions of any amount - apparently Know Your Money Launder was to judgemental.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 18:56 | 1795208 malek
malek's picture

Are you telling me it's better in Europe or Japan - or that Europe and Japan already are screwed for decades, just like we to become?? I do hope the latter, otherwise you are delusional.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:14 | 1795282 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

America follows Japan population wize. so it doesn't surprise me that US is having a lost decade few years after Japan. Housing bubble, bankster bailouts, same path....but that also means same shitty economic conditions for many young Americans.

Smart ones know....future is grim...and this is even with ZIRP.

Only way to get ahead now is for your daughters to become a mistress and for your sons to enroll in the military to risk his life. Welcome to the New World Order.


OWS is not a US only problem. It is a global problem. Ask why this is global. Because not one group/person is responsible... democrat, republican, obama, bush, clinton....because they have different groups and politicians in Europe and Japan. It is a global problem because of global economic system is flawed.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 23:20 | 1795858 TheMerryPrankster
TheMerryPrankster's picture

My point exactly. You could put Ghandi in charge and this fucked up system would bend him like a pretzel and in 10 years he'd have a hot tub full of ho's and pimps and a dozen swiss bank accounts and a fleet of Hummer Limos.

Its not the people, we can swap obama, for Ron Paul and we'll still get the same old shit. One man can't hold back the ocean.

The system is broken, corrupt, and corrupting. The system must be changed before it destroys us all.

"If voting could change anything it would be illegal" - George Carlin - that should be on the one dollar bill along with his portrait.

Fri, 10/21/2011 - 07:53 | 1796321 Overflow-admin
Overflow-admin's picture

"It's not the people"

When I try to talk about the system, problems and ways to resolve with friends, colleagues and also completely unknown people, I tend to conclude that in fact the problem is in the individuals - not people - but the distinction is not easy...

It's been for years I try to find people around around me (in real life, not in the bloguosphere) that are willing to discuss the problems we all face. I might find some but everytime it's time to act they all seem to have something more important to do (something to buy, someone to visit, some party to attend, etc.)

It's the people, but the roots of the problem aren't the people. The roots of the problem is in what the people have forgotten. They don't understand anymore basic concepts like RIGHTS, MUTUAL AID and COMMUNITY. They prefer to remain lobotomized in front of their new 80' HQ flat screen in their own pathetic self-interested 'entertained' life because if they wake up, they feel so unconfortable for the situation they put themselves in that they just can't stand it and prefer to shelter in their illusions.

I'm OUTRAGED to see that individuals just don't give a shit about society! They can discuss the matter but act?!? How hypocritical is that?!?

I'm OUTRAGED to see that in the 50 people I asked personally to attend on october 15, only 3 had the will to demonstrate!

I'm OUTRAGED finding so much people trapped by their cognitive dissonnance and locked in their illusory self-constructed wonderland.

I'm OUTRAGED and soon will be the day I will start distributing my manifesto even to whom I would have called 'friend' not much time ago...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 20:47 | 1795564 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

College is generally free in advanced countries except the US.They may be screwed but not by student loans.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:33 | 1795666 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

You just got the fucktard of the month award.

College is generally free in advanced countries except the US.

How can people get it in their heads that THERE AINT NO FUCKIN FREE LUNCH?

College is free in Europe? What a crock of shit that is. You mean professors teach for free? Publishers give away free textbooks? No, idiot. College in those "advanced countries" is paid by everyone else but the student! Debt is socialized.

How would you like to pick up the debt tab of "educating" america's retard youth?


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 22:23 | 1795747 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture





Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:18 | 1795296 Louie the Dog
Louie the Dog's picture

What a fucking cunt. Of all the little nancy-boy whiners on ZH you take first prize. Yeah, blame an entire generation for your problems.  You have nothing to do with the fact that you're a loser.  A fucking pussy that didn't have the common sense to know he (she) might not have the ability to pay back the cost of four years of psychology and art appreciation courses.

Here's some advice, why don't you kill mom and dad, the evil boomers that gave a retard like you life (apparently mom is pro-life), bury them in the backyard, sell their house ($500k) and pay off your college debt that the rest of us boomers forced on you.  

A generation of pussies.  Fuck you.  But hey, keep paying for my SS and medicare.  LOL.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:26 | 1795323 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Yup, the greatest generation.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:35 | 1795675 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

The PEPSI generation.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 19:40 | 1795375 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

I found Louie the Dog's picture on the interwebs!


Thu, 10/20/2011 - 21:29 | 1795660 BandGap
BandGap's picture

I have a PhD, have made about 2.5 million in the last 22 years and am debt free.  It isn't the colleges so much as the stupid assinine degrees some of these people get.  Science, engineering, medicine, etc.  Get a fuckin' degree in something useful. Those dithering assholes at OWS with a fuckin' degree in Spanish Literature so they could teach with 150K of debt got what they asked for. But they sure had fun in collgee, especially those semesters "studying" in Spain. 

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