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"The Student Loan Racket" - The Complete Infographic

Tyler Durden's picture





 

When we looked at the latest release of consumer debt a few days ago, we spread the data into its constituent government and non-government loans. Needless to say, taking away the "government" means consumer credit has imploded. So where does all this government debt go? Two places: car financing (see previous post about retail sales surging on a spike in car sales especially subprime loans to Government Motors clients), and student loans. Below we look at the letter. As the following infographic from HealthcareAdministration.com shows, student loan debt, now at $830 billion, has surpassed credit card debt—a statement not likely to have been heard 20 years ago. Student loans, unlike any other form of debt, cannot be forgiven via bankruptcy—these loans must be repaid. Is this the next bubble to burst? Look for clues in this comprehensive infographic.

Exposing the Student Loan Racket in America
Via: HealthcareAdministration.com

 


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Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:20 | Link to Comment Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

Most of the kids don't understand the terms of the loan anyway, so they are put at even more risk. After graduation, entering a workforce with 0 available job's in their skillset, forces them to take any job, and that is where the train leaves the tracks. The first time their SS# is popped for with holding tax after graduation, that loan becomes hot. Now they have a degree, and a job working at Jack in the box, with a student loan payment equal to or greater than their entire monthly pay.

STUDENTS: If you cannot find a job within your degreed skillset, DO NOT WORK. The loan will remain dormant for a period of time, while you file suit against your education institution, for failure to deliver on THEIR promise to properly prepare you to enter the workforce, thereby enabling you to repay the loan.

The govt loans you the money, while saying at the same time, they will have job's created and ready for you, when you graduate.

That is a LIE. Now, you have been taken advantage of.  

Sue them for breach of contract, educational failure, and anything else you can think of. If your going down the loan shitpipe, at least make those lying fucks spend some frn's defending their sorry asses in public.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:30 | Link to Comment Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

Must read for college bound students and their parents:

Debt-Free U: How I Paid for an Outstanding College Education Without Loans, Scholarships, or Mooching off My Parents by Zac Bissonnette and Andrew Tobias (Aug 31, 2010)
Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:46 | Link to Comment koaj
koaj's picture

my boys are 3 and 1. i have plenty of time for this thing to collapse.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:15 | Link to Comment Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

We prepaid state tuition when our children were 1 year old (15-16 years ago).  It is by far our best performing investment with a value around 9-10x the original investment (for a state university) with practically no downside risk.  It is transferable elswhere at a lesser value, but still much more than we paid.

Not sure I would do that now, since the benefits are reduced, the costs are higher, and there is a real risk of default or dillution.  Your plan to let things shake out is a good one.

I have three college bound children in high school now.  Everybody understands that student loans are not an option. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:21 | Link to Comment Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Good for you. However, when I grew up, it was understood that higher education was the financial responsibility of the child. Costs were low, before the boom in easy credit for students. If you really wanted an education, you could work for it. How many people do you think would work hard weekends and after school, do without iPhones, TVs, other luxuries, in order to get a degree in Womans's Studies or African-American Studies etc? I would venture to say none. None of these nonsense degrees would be out there if the student themselves had to pony up the money on the line.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:27 | Link to Comment CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

I (now) disagree with the notion that all kids should go to college. Some should go, others should do something vocational (journeyman or 2 yr associates), and the rest should just go into the work force.

The pre-pay thing paid off because the cost of education is outracing everything else. That is going to change as soon as government stops guaranteeing the studen loans (paying off the original lender). The risk free money (to the lender) has allowed prices to go to the freaking moon.

This is old, but this was covered to some degree on Ritholtz's blog (before I stopped reading it).

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/student-loan-sch...

Regards,

Cooter

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:55 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Not all kids should go to college, but those that do should understand the terms of the loan.  Are the loans excessive?  Are they fair?  It doesn't matter; if you sign that loan, you should pay.

Of course, I am all for a massive loan default by former students.  The education system is half assed, overpriced, and many programs could be better studied in the public library.

But, we should not bail this system out when it comes down, we should let it fail.  We should not bail out the students, or the Universities.  We should let them fail, and let the higher education system burn so that we can remake it for the better.  This, of course, is what we should have done with the financial system 3 years ago.

This is what we should have done with the Major Banking Houses.  It is difficult to decide how to pick apart the system and that is why we should end all bailouts by ending the Fed, take all the capital from the Major Banking Houses and recapitalize the Treasury, back it with gold, and say hello to our little friend- a gold backed system; one with substance and security.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:31 | Link to Comment pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

I haven't signed in for a while, but I just wanted to say.. WORD.

Unfortunatly, the people at who make the rules make a ton of money from this system, so it won't be allowed to burn... until they've pulled out - they we will be stuck with the emtpy bag, again.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:39 | Link to Comment saiybat
saiybat's picture

Let the education system burn K-12 to university. They're only good for indoctrination and learning trivia. They took logic and civics out of curriculum after the Vietnam war for a reason. All of it needs to be brought down.

 

George Carlin on American Owners and Education

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jQT7_rVxAE

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:04 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

how about "the rest should just go into the slaugherhouse".  emm...I mean, the armed forces.

Semper fool!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:51 | Link to Comment Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

 

 

Tyler,

I respectfully disagree with a point in your article. With regard to car sales, you're connecting dots that simply cannot be connected. 

You claim the surge in car sales is due to GM's subprime loans, but you provide no proof of that.  You simply provide a link to a MarketWatch article from the summer of 2010 when GM purchased AmeriCredit.  Do you think all car sales are anchored to AmeriCredit? In other words, is the balance sheet of AmeriCredit a mirror of the entire car business?  Furthermore, do you think all GM's subprime loans go to AmeriCredit? Where's your forensics of AmeriCredit's portfolio and of GM's sales?

You're cynically trying to say that the surge in car sales is directly rooted in GM's subprime loans, and this just isn't correct.  I think you're trying to make it look like GM's only business is subprime, and that the only reason car sales have surged is due to GM ratcheting up their subprime portfolio. 

And this is just false.

We want truth, not propaganda.  If you insist on spinning everything negative, then you're no different than CNBC who spins everything positive.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:31 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

"We want truth, not propaganda."

Coming from you that is rich.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 01:50 | Link to Comment CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

To obviously disrespect the USMC with "semper fool" does not contribute anything to the conversation. It is easy to pick your favorite Marines in history; for light or dark. Doing so shares a little bit about who you are as a person.

To dismiss a whole branch of the US Military as such, that sir, makes you an asshat. This commentary will color my interpretation of anything you have to contribute henceforth.

Regards,

Cooter

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:10 | Link to Comment porrannor
porrannor's picture

As everything else, through comercalization based on the misguided gov subsidies (student loans and other programs), the concept of the Higher Education has been redefined. Suffice to say, with some exceptions, it is a joke. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:55 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

What if the State declares bankruptcy? 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:20 | Link to Comment TheClub55
TheClub55's picture

Word... mine are 3 & 5, love em to death but no way I will ever co-sign for loan.  I will do the same thing my parents did, disown them at the start of college (yes, I will loose the duction).  But, once that happened (it took a year), I receivced in-state tuition in a new state, was offically poor so recieved grants that paid 100% of tuition.  This only time in my life I've gamed the system to my advantage (I've still paid much more in fed tax than the grants they gave me) and only took some very low dollar staffor loans that got locked in at 3%.  Then found a company to pay over 80% of grad school (paid the 20% cash).

If all goes well we'll have massive restucture of the loan progam w/ in 5 years!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:21 | Link to Comment DOT
DOT's picture

Be prepared to home school.

Read Plutarch's "Lives" to them!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:51 | Link to Comment twotraps
twotraps's picture

...daughter is 17 months.  Bad news is that it could be 700K to put her through by the time she gets there.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:09 | Link to Comment SteveNYC
SteveNYC's picture

My kid is even younger. Trust me, by the time they hit 18 the education financing system as it currently appears.....will be gone. There will be no $700k tuition, relax.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:36 | Link to Comment candyman
candyman's picture

Move to New Mexico. If you graduate from a HS in NM you can go to UNM for free, the taxpayer picks up the bill. My nephew got a 4 year free ride.  There may be some restrictions now thou.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:18 | Link to Comment Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

You're correct, this will collapse.  Because even people who have jobs are paying a reduced amount on the loans via IBR or income based repayment.  Many who are paying loans and are working a good job my be making 60,000 or more a year, but after their monthly studen loan debt they are making 30,000 a year.  That is why you have someone who is in an important job or good position living with their parents or not living as high on the hog (many don't do this they live on credit), because they don't have any money left.  You can't pay a loan of over 100,000 dollars (and that is being cheap from some schools) from a good school if you can't get a job that pays well enough to pay the loan and also allow you enough income to buy into the "american dream". 

This is going to collapse because students aren't finding the high paying jobs promised, if they even can find a job.  Their laden with debt and can't really buy a house or even think about getting married because fo the debt.  I think of all those trillions used as guarantees and payments to the banks to protect them so they don't damage whats left of the economy.  lets take the two traunches of 750 billion that congress agreed to give the Fed, that 1.4 Trillion dollars.  That money could have been used with alot left over to buy up all the bad mortgages and it would still be cheaper.  That money could have allowed the govt. to say we will allow the students and individuals to discharge their debt in bankruptcy and/or by helping for one year in some capacity for the govt.  So much money that could have been used to better the US but was wasted on the banks and overseas.

When this implosion happens, it will take down alot of people and institutions.  It will literally change the face of the US.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:19 | Link to Comment Woodyg
Woodyg's picture

In Oregon they pump out around 5,000 new teachers a year - most with Masters - last year less than 500 new Teachers were hired.

Let's just Face Facts - there simply not enough jobs in a centralized, automated economy for the large and ever increasing population.

I beleive the new crisis for society is what do we do with this problem of population rising faster than available jobs?

Just ignoring the problem CANNOT fix this problem - except to perhaps deliver us a revolution in the streets.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:46 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Infinite growth on a finite world is impossible.  Looks to me like the system is so structurally flawed that it will collapse.  Population can not increasse exponentially (which is what the system depends on).  unfortunately most do not understand how an exponential equation works.  So be it, peak humanity, peak stupidity.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:00 | Link to Comment fourchan
fourchan's picture

dont tell thet to the federal reserve.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:00 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Hey Luddite

There is always a job available. In a true free market no productive asset is allowed to go to waste, even labor. It is a profit center for someone, somewhere.

We could easily employ the bottom 20 percent as servants to the rest of us, if nothing else. Of course that would require getting the government and the lawyers out of the way.

Right now the bottom twenty percent is overly incented to fall down your stairs. For that reason i wont employ anybody but latino immigrants. They are still too honorable or naive to commit that kind of fraud. The bottom 40 percent of americans can eat a shit sandwich and go to hell. I would never hire them anymore. They are just looking for their chance to join the lawsuit lottery.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:42 | Link to Comment unerman
unerman's picture

And you, shitstain, is what makes America the disgusting pig she comes across as.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:42 | Link to Comment unerman
unerman's picture

And you, shitstain, is what makes America the disgusting pig she comes across as.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:39 | Link to Comment dondonsurvelo
dondonsurvelo's picture

Stoploss, Nobody put a gun to their heads and made them sign up for a loan.  My nephew went to a community college for two years and he was 4.0 in HS.  He was then able to get scholarships for his undergrad degree.  Sure it is not cool or glamorous to spend two years at a commuter school but he has no debt.  He is now a TA at a university getting his masters in geology.  I want to see where in the loan contract that a job will be waiting for them.  You are full of it.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:52 | Link to Comment lilmac929
lilmac929's picture

Here's a nice little story that fits this crazy world that makes no sense...

I know a guy who was unemployed over 2 years ago, for a whole year, taking vacations and having fun while "waiting for a job he wanted."  He finds a job he thinks is worthy, and works there until recently when he was let go.  Now he is busy again planning a fun year + (snowboarding, vacations, etc), and recently told me he may be able to go back and get his masters...which the gov't will pay for too!  What a deal!  Parents pay for undergrad, and the rest of society pays for you to get your graduate degree!  I'm so glad I could help!  I really feel good about getting a job the week I was legally able to work (14 yrs old), and working ever since to help pay for all of you that "just need a little help."  I mean, I might argue that I needed a little help when I was working 40-50 hrs per week while putting myself thru Engineering school for almost 7 years because I didn't have parents to pay for school, or car, or clothes, etc...but I guess my opinions don't matter because I'm a maker and not a taker.  Is this what they mean by "social justice"?  

This shit has got to stop!  This is F'ing rediculous!  Let this bitch burn to the ground and let the cards fall where they may.  Mother nature will sort this shit out.  I'm done being some politicians bitch so he can buy votes.  STOP STEALING MY PROPERTY AND "REDISTRIBUTING" IT YOU FUCKS!

Well...I feel better!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:04 | Link to Comment Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

... and another libertarian is born!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:44 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I worked my way thru college as well.   If about 50 to 100 people with your views met up with the OWS crowd there would be blood.   Not amongst you -- I don't mean that.   The blood would come from the "establishment" who tried to control a crowd full of the likes of me and you.   Remember when we used to call them "the establishment"?   Only the names have changed; they are still there are still hanging onto control wherever possible.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:00 | Link to Comment Melville1977
Melville1977's picture

Two college grads ending up suing their respective colleges citing the college failed to live up to its objective---helping them find employment. One student was from Boston College and the other I think was from Trinity College. I don't know if they won or not but I think it is a sign of the shitty economic times.

I think trends forecaster Gerald Celente is right in regards to his prediction of the collapse of the college industrial complex. One college used their campus as collateral with Skank of America. Some colleges are even starting to lower their tuition. Riots took place at UCLA last year when it was announced there would be fee hikes.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:16 | Link to Comment Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Do you know of any examples of a single plaintiff who have been sucessful suing an institution of higher learning on your theory?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:02 | Link to Comment MacGruber
MacGruber's picture

Exactly. You'd also have to set precedent. I'm sure the defense would merely say the plantiff didn't fulfill their end, and if they had that they wouldn't have even filed the suit. Education is a perfect racket for these thieves because it you have a de facto out - the student.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:40 | Link to Comment Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

For what it's worth, another alternative to actually attending college and subjecting yourself to the incessant brainwashing offered up by our "ivy league" institutions, is to use your computer for what it was built for. FREE EDUCATION. I have always considered my computer to be the premier educational tool, that knows no limits, has no bounds, and most importantly, does not offer biased information in a monotone drone voice.  I have done this for years, as i also was spit into a zero job workforce in the early 80's.

Pick your college, log on to their library sites, and start reading, reading and read some more. Then go to the cirriculums of your chioce to view the info sources of the particular course you are interested in, and start reading. When you have finished, and think you are ready, you may purchase the test out exam, (back in the day i paid 700 - 1200 per exam, and take the test. These exams are different than offered by the professors, since they exempt of any and all opinions of said professor, as well as "likeability" by said professor, you know what i mean..

I chose Princeton University for my free education, and read everything Lord Keynes ever wrote, But i have no need to test out at this stage in my life. What i do have though, is the playbook as to exactly how this all ends.

How do you like me NOW Ben??

Oh, and FUCK YOU, your day is a commin'.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:45 | Link to Comment lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

just lie and make up a different SS#, you think the illegals work'n at jack'n the box have a  valid SS#.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:51 | Link to Comment infotechsailor
infotechsailor's picture

****

 

 

I agree with you mr. stoploss... but instead of not working, why not just leave the country? your degree is still valid, and by renouncing your citizenship, your debt goes byebye. sure, might be hard to come back, but why would you want to? China, australia, singapore, switzerland, japan, korea, etc.

lots of places better than this land of wallstreet socialism and useful idiots who elect them. if ron paul doesn't win, I'm tempted to move to south america.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:59 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

no lawyer will take such a case.  he or she will say there is no money in it for them and suing the government is no win situation..

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:19 | Link to Comment Thisson
Thisson's picture

You are wrong.  There are currently a slate of class action lawsuits being brought against lawschools on the grounds that they lied regarding their post-employment job placement statistics.  In other words, that they fraudulently induced the students into attending and paying tuition. 

Had the schools told the truth, there would be no basis for relief.  But I believe that the schools have lied about their job placement stats, and that the cases do have merit. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:59 | Link to Comment MacGruber
MacGruber's picture

Riiiight, sue for breach. Good luck with that. With what money? I have a friend that just graduated with 100k in loans, his monthly payment is 1,000. He now paints houses for a living because he can't get a job in his field. How is he supposed to find the time, money, and energy to sue someone?

The problem in education is the same as it was for housing. Everyone is doing it, so the cancer seems normal. The way to solve this is to stricture the educational institutions. Make it painful for them to charge large amounts for tuition. When I went to school I lived in a converted barracks, ate at the cafeteria, and my tuition at a state school was $1400/semester. Now kids live in mini-hotels, eat off campus and pay 1400 just for books. The problem is that the educators forgot that its about EDUCATION. The huge, modern buildings and outsized admin salaries do not contribute to the bottom line - which is learning.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:16 | Link to Comment Ruffcut
Ruffcut's picture

I have bitched about this bloated education and healthcare monsters for over a decade. Double digit inflation, on and on and no one gave a shit.

Now it comes to roost. My kid graduated from a private engineering college and had minimal debt. I helped him pay it off. I know many people in their sixties that have "parent loans" that they have paying for years. Even when their kids buys a new Audi and they still pay his education and can't afford to retire.

NO ONE SAID YOU HAD TO PAY FOR THE KIDS HIGHER EDUCATION.

It is high time that these bloated universities sharpen their pencil. And the kid needs to grow up faster to figure out how to help themselves. Stop making your kids a bunch of leechfucks. They ain't your friends and don't give two shits for you. You only help them to make enuff to get the fuck out of the house.

No wonder my friends that never had kids look years younger. My brother who is a pharmicyst has two kids and they never even finished high school. Currently both are in jail.  Most people call me a prick for getting into my kids' shit all the time. Enuff of this nurturing shit and prepare these fucks for the new normal.  "kids are a blessing", my aching asshole they are.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:21 | Link to Comment Thisson
Thisson's picture

You're wrong.  In NY you do have to pay for your kid's college education.  It's completely F'd up.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:37 | Link to Comment Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/27/AR2007092700958.html

It was not an accident that these loans skyrocketed during the Bush years.  What's next, debtor's prison? 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 20:24 | Link to Comment Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Rent to own America's youth.  The Fed gives "easy money" to people too dumb to realize the scam.  What a great way to enslave a generation.  Of course they made that debt non-dischargeable in BK as so many kids would come out of school, get a job and stick it to Uncle Sugar Daddy.  That is you and me.  BK while your young wasn't that bad a strategy.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:26 | Link to Comment zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

I will gladly pay you Tuesday, for an education today.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:01 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

government supported colleges are about the same as government schools in general............garbage in and garbage out.  the never ending lie.............

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:39 | Link to Comment Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

Good article about student loans and their connection to none other than the Vampire Squid. (Following the money is getting so easy these days, since you only have to look in one place.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/14/goldman-sachs-for-profit-college_n_997409.html

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:09 | Link to Comment myne
myne's picture

Doing it right:

As a general rule, all students who attend Australian tertiary education institutions are charged higher education fees. However, several measures are in place to relieve the costs of tertiary education in Australia.

Most students are Commonwealth supported. This means that they are only required to pay a part of the cost of tuition, called the "student contribution", while the Commonwealth pays the balance; and students are able to defer payment of their contribution as a HELP loan. Other domestic students are full fee-paying (non-Commonwealth supported) and receive no other direct government contribution to the cost of their education. They can also obtain subsidised HELP loans from the Government up to a lifetime limit of $100,000 for medicine, dentistry and veterinary science programs and $80,000 for all other programs. Australian citizens and (with some limitations) permanent residents[1] are able to obtain interest free loans from the government under the Higher Education Loan Programme (HELP) which replaced the Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS).

HELP is jointly administered by the Department of Education, Science and Training (DEST) and the Australian Taxation Office (ATO).[2]

In addition, qualified students may be entitled to Youth Allowance or Austudy Payment to assist them financially while they are studying. These support payments are means and assets tested. Further assistance is available in the form of scholarships.

HELP loan management

HELP debts do not attract interest, but are instead indexed to the Consumer Price Index (CPI) on 1 June each year, based on the annual CPI to March of that year. The indexation rate applied on 1 June 2006 was 2.8% and 3.4% on 1 June 2007. Indexation applies to the part of the debt that has been unpaid for 11 months or more. Thus, indexation is calculated on the opening HELP debt balance on 1 July of the previous year plus any debt incurred in the first half of the current year (usually for first semester courses) less any compulsory and voluntary repayments, with bonus. Any HELP debt incurred on second semester courses (usually determined in June) will not be subject to indexation until the next year. After indexation, the new balance is rounded down to a whole dollar amount.[13]

HELP account debtors can make voluntary repayments. These repayments attract a 10% bonus for repayments over $500. This means that if a person voluntarily repays $1000, the debt is reduced by $1100. If the remaining debt is less than $500 the bonus still applies on repayment of their balance of the debt. As making voluntary repayments does not exempt the person from compulsory repayments, if the person intends to pay off the total debt voluntarily, it is financially advantageous for them to do it before lodging the tax return. This will attract the 10% bonus on the repayment, and there would be no balance on the debt to which the compulsory repayment provisions can apply. Better still, if the voluntary repayment is made before the indexation date of 1 June, the avoiding of the indexation adjustment is an additional bonus. Even factoring in the 10% bonus on voluntary repayments, many people elect not to pay off their debt in advance of the required repayments because it still works out to be probably the cheapest loan someone will ever receive.

If a person with a HELP debt dies, any compulsory repayment included on their income tax notice of assessment relating to the period prior to their death must be paid from their estate, but the remainder of their debt is canceled.

Repayments

HELP debts are administered by the Australian Taxation Office and will be repaid compulsorily over time through the taxation system. If the HELP Repayment Income (HRI) of a person with a HELP debt exceeds a certain threshold, which for the 2007/08 financial year is $39,825, a compulsory payments will be deducted from the person's tax for the year. To work out the HRI, the ATO will add back to the person's taxable income any net rental loss claimed against that taxable income and add fringe benefits and exempt foreign income received, which have not been included in the taxable income. Unlike marginal tax rates, the repayment rate applies on the full HRI, so that a person with a HRI of $39,500 in the 2007/08 tax year would not have to make any compulsory HELP repayment, but a person with a HRI of $40,000 would make a payment of $1,600. This is 4% of the HRI (not taxable income or the debt balance) of $40,000. The compulsory repayment amount cannot exceed the balance of the HELP debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_education_fees_in_Australia

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:18 | Link to Comment Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

AZ ROCKS - we win most people in default - how do you like us now, B!tchez ?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:22 | Link to Comment GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Phoenix is a shithole. Northern AZ is amazing, they couldn't build a nice city up there somewhere? Putting five million in the middle of a desert is American stupidity at its peak...

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:30 | Link to Comment Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

Nobody "put" anyone anywhere morphadite, people moved there for jobs at one point.  Where do you reside Gene, Mogadishu ?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:59 | Link to Comment GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

I see I've struck a nerve... I am sorry... that you live in a pile of dry feces. I hadn't any idea that people live there willingly.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:02 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Wet humid feces is much worse. It i called south mississippi. For some reason people live there voluntarily too.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:11 | Link to Comment Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

People do crazy ass shit:

I moved to Brazil over a year ago, São Paulo is fucking ugly.

I used to live in Mexico City, the place is a shithole too.

I used to live in Chicago, the work there sucked.

There's no place to go, it's more like what do you want to put-up with.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:32 | Link to Comment imapopulistnow
imapopulistnow's picture

Have a nice day.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:41 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

But at least in brazil you can have all the hot babes you want even if you have below average looks. The privilege of being a caucasian USA citizen.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:43 | Link to Comment Blano
Blano's picture

And why are you now only revealing this???????

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:03 | Link to Comment pelican
pelican's picture

How about fat middle aged losers, yet white and American?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:10 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Yes absolutely!
I have several good stories on that one too!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:08 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Because i wish i knew in my twenties what i know now.

Take advantage of the wisdom of your elders.
Go get some south american poon. It is an
all you can eat buffet, and it is possible to
overeat and barf!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:57 | Link to Comment lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

"is possible to overeat and barf"... dude looks like a lady...

if you're smart; just stay away from all the poon until you want a kid. Its a waste of time. create something instead; the poon will come to you, and you'll be richer for it. Its just a power trip that leads nowhere.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:49 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Now there is something I never expected to read on ZH.

ORI

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:21 | Link to Comment falun bong
falun bong's picture

Pick a better country next time. I moved to Australia, really expensive but there are plenty of jobs, good pay, unemployment just went down again.

My kid will go to a great university and it will cost me $1500/year.

You might also consider Panama...Costa Rica...Chile...Singapore...Denmark...Argentina...Canada...New Zealand etc etc

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:08 | Link to Comment Thomas
Thomas's picture

This issue of how to allow kids to fund higher education through loans without defaults running wild is not an easy one. What is clear, however, is that the banks (generically referring to a large collection of financial vermin) have figured out how to game the system and enjoy Bongo orgies. The situation we are currently in--a generation of young adults hopelessly in debt--is catastrophic.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:53 | Link to Comment Obaminator
Obaminator's picture

Fuck You! Northern AZ is a cess-pool of liberal universities, deserted towns, dwindling populations like Holbrook where kids leave the second they are old enough to get out of town, Oh...and a huge portion of the Native Americans who dont work and live off federal subsidies. Id take Phoenix any day over that.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:24 | Link to Comment Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

Never been to phoenix eh?   They put the jobs there man,  where do the people live?  In the shithole.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:22 | Link to Comment DOT
DOT's picture

Snowflake is nice

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:10 | Link to Comment seek
seek's picture

Ssssh! That's a secret!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:07 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

phoenix az and the 33rd degree latitudinal line...........hmmm.  there is a reason for the city of phoenix. but you have to be familiar with the fire in the minds of men to understand it all.............

http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/10oct/33.html

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:55 | Link to Comment krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

I guess you're the best edumacated debtor state then?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:11 | Link to Comment Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

Hey, if you're gonna be a bear, be a GRIZZLY

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:32 | Link to Comment donsluck
donsluck's picture

Grizzlies were hunted to extinction in AZ in the 1930's

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:51 | Link to Comment jdelano
jdelano's picture

Man, to get above FL's meth heads and oxy-addicted PWT, you must have some really effing stoopid people out there.  

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:19 | Link to Comment GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Mass Delusion.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:33 | Link to Comment zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

For many students today, money would be better spent learning a trade. 

I had a plumber do some work recently. He was here less than one hour and charged

me $375. I told him I could take my whole family to see a doctor for $375.

He said: " I know, I use to be a doctor"

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:20 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

I'm sorry but suckers who take on these kinds of loans before they even have a clue about what they want as a proffesion deserve it!

4/5 doesn't need the education for the job they do. But they do have the loans. Go figure.

they also better start doing the math about what their future job might bring in and how long it will take to pay that down and how much luxery they are missing because those downpayments during that time.

IS IT WORTH IT!

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:25 | Link to Comment bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

have pity on me.  and not because i'm ugly.

i lost that college discussion with the ex concerning both my kids (who are now both in private univ's).

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:07 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

It is not nice to take advantage of stupid people and we were all stupid at 18.

Do you guys realize in the eighties no college kid could get a real credit card, visa, etc. without a cosigner?

I was just lucky they werent passing out financial crack cocaine back in the days.

I got my first pre approved credit card in 1991 after graduating med school.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:13 | Link to Comment Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

I remember credit card companies on campuses setting up booths to target students and thinking "This probably won't be a good thing."

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:06 | Link to Comment mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Where I live it's required by divorce that you pay for your kids to go to college - doesn't matter where they go or what they major in or whether they are smart. Pretty bizarre since there is no such requirement if you don't get divorced.l

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:08 | Link to Comment bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

you in NY too, mj?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:28 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Exactly. Applying for $30,000/year loans for school and most of them dont even know what theyre going to school for. I dont feel sorry for them, take out a loan, pay the shit back. What...youre supposed to be able to file for bankruptcy on your precious degree and I'M supposed to pay it back? 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:34 | Link to Comment TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

Education wouldn't cost 30k a year if it weren't for this scam. Everybody has to pay more because of this bullshit, not to mention schools have just become check in the box factories. We all know it, yet we continue to parrot (at least most people) about getting "higher education." You post as if you're above this but played the same bullshit game as well.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:43 | Link to Comment Caggge
Caggge's picture

The same goes for our ever rising healthcare costs. Eliminate insurance and the price drops considerably.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:10 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Anytime the government gets involved we have higher costs. Healthcare, housing, and student loans.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:47 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Fact is, not EVERYONE should have a degree! Half the FUKTARDS presently in college wouldnt have gotten anywhere NEAR a college 75 years ago!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:06 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

In fact, many who pursued worthwhile degrees never got to use them. I graduated in 1968 with a degree in physics. That year the draft deferment for graduate school ended. The USAF rescued me and gave me a new profession, in a roundabout manner. Of the five in my fraternity that got the BS in physics, only two got jobs in that field. It didn't help that, by 1969, the NASA funding for the space program was shrinking. Many engineers and scientists working on the space program were suddenly driving taxi cabs, etc. While reading a physics-oriented periodical in 1970 or so I ran across a cartoon showing two janitors, mops in hand, standing before a blackboard filled with complex equations. One was saying to the other, pointing to one of the equations, "You can see exactly where he went wrong...".

That said, far too many people go to college to continue their high school partying. I say that based on having met some of my son's college friends. He, at least, was sufficiently prescient to switch (from computer science, now dominated by other nationalities) into a better profession. Some of his friends were studying in niche areas that were good for nothing other than becoming a professor in that same niche. They'd have been better off studying auto mechanics, plumbing, etc. Hands-on jobs can't easily be outsourced.

Off topic a bit, am I the only one who gets upset when a public university athletic coach gets paid more than anyone else at that university? I thought these are institutions of higher education? I suggest letting corporations sponsor the sports teams, just like Nascar. How about the Pepsi Seminoles against the Coke Gators? (OK, I'm from Floriduh.) 

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:41 | Link to Comment CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

I am an EE, learned in school that I love CS, and changed up skill sets working for TI in a fab doing software for fab equipment. Been applied CS ever since. I wouldn't agree that CS is a bad field, I think its a good one, but it depends on the person, their qualities, the technology they invest into, and ultimately a bit of randomness that is the journey of life.

But I could definately see the desire to bail because of "outsourcing". I had cold feet for a while too, but have managed to get by (albeit with a bit of luck getting a good opportunity/boss a couple of times).

With all that said, mind if I ask what field he decided to go into? I have thoughts on the subject, but would be more interested to hear his conclusion and perhaps the reasoning behind it.

Would be happy to share my thoughts in follow up later today.

Regards,

Cooter

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:43 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

My son started in CS because the USAF put me into IT (it was called Data Processing back then) and I spent my entire private-sector career in software development. I enjoyed every second of it.  I've often believed that the best software designers were born that way, just like athletes and musicians. It matched my talents quite well: I was a much better software engineer than I would have been a physicist. My son got into another profession because CS did not align with his talents properly. It also didn't help that the company I worked for at the time was switching to Oracle, and most of the new hires were Indian H1Bs. Or that I had a copy of Ed Yourdan's old book (1992?) lying around - "The Decline and Fall of the American Programmer". It sounds like you managed to find a niche where you could flourish doing something other than EE. A mixture of luck, talent and hard work can go a long way. I tend to attribute my success to divine intervention, as opposed to blind luck.

My son switched into accounting. As long as government exists to promulgate accounting regulations and monstrous tax laws he will succeed. I do hope he avoids getting into the 'creative' branch of that profession.

My joking explanation for why I enjoy software development: I can tell my wife what to do, and she won't; I can tell my son what to do, and he might or might not. I can tell my cat what to do and ... well, he's a cat.. If I tell a PC what to do it does exactly what I tell (program) it to do. Whether it's what I want it to do or not is quite another issue.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:26 | Link to Comment CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

You hit the nail on the head with "I've often believed that the best software designers were born that way, just like athletes and musicians." In fact, I actually say exactly that to people to try to help them relate.

Applied CS in the US can be a very rewarding career, but it is all about access to the right opportunities. So, a CS from a solid university will open many doors.

What you observe with the H1B thing I have been through personally. Some companies can simply cut a deal with a company to provision a lot of "talent" to try to cut costs. While I have worked with some really talented international folks (Russians, Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians, Lebanese, Chinese, and the list goes on), on average they lacked the skills and qualities to produce good work. Sometimes being a team player was an issue. Sometimes simply saying they need two more weeks to get something done was an issue (some cultures view such an admission as weakness). They produced, but there was all sorts of issues with communication, castle building (building a code base no one else can work on but the author - common approach to provide job security), ethics, and so on. Despite these challenges, I have seen managers, who know how to hire, build really solid teams of almost all H1Bs and these managers out performed their peers.

In short, it is all about the people, how they work together, and the kind of management they have.

Back when this was happening (early aughts), outsourcing was huge. It isn't huge so much anymore because of so many known quality control issues. Outsourcing can help, but it has to be done in proportion and managed properly. While much work will move overseas, much work will also stay here, so in the end a good software engineer will always have a paying seat. The "easier" the work is, the more likely outsourcing becomes, so one of the best hedges is to ensure a skill set that can handle "hard" work. Industry experience (such as travel vs insurance vs marketing) can be a huge factor as well.

So, I don't fret about outsourcing like I used to. I got a good gig, valuable skills, I learn very fast, and I deliver results, so I become indispensable in short order.

Accounting is a good field, especially if he can pick up a CS minor. I have a friend in CA who is a C level executive now because he worked for years as the CPA who could hack databases and generate insane database reports. His experience with technology and understanding of accounting/finance eventually got him a job where his responsibilities require both.

With all that said, I am in the K-Wave camp where "computers" are the most recent K-Wave. We are going into a pretty rough spell for 10 years, maybe more. The only outs I have seen so far, in terms of the next engine of growth, have to be energy, nano-tech, or bio-sciences.

I looked pretty close at nano-tech (there is an easy to read book by Ratner and Ratner "Nanotechnology: A Gentle Introduction to the Next Big Idea " - check it out you will enjoy it). While there will be much activity in this sector (it is re-writing material science from the ground up - all products that are made of stuff will be impacted in time), I don't see this as being the next big engine. It's a refurb on existing manufacturing rather than a whole new industry, but I could easily be wrong.

Bioinformatics is really compelling because (and I say this with caution) we are developing the ability to understand what makes biological organisms tick. That implies a lot, as pretty much the entire earth is nothing but a bunch of these organisms running around doing stuff, from bacteria up to humans. Technology requires responsibility and I don't agree with some of the stuff going on (Monsanto), but I am acknowledging that this could be a field big enough with enough influence to create a K-Wave of new economic activity as the science matures and unlocks crazy potential.

Energy is the last one, and I think its probably the most likely candidate simply because the existing systems are running out of affordable inputs. This could be a huge multi-decades long build out of new technology, such as Thorium MSRs (LFTR). Since everyone, everywhere needs energy, this could be K-Wave potential as well.

Just some thoughts...

Regards,

Cooter

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:09 | Link to Comment Janice
Janice's picture

WRONG! Colleges needed janitors 75 years ago. Sorry, but that one was too easy.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:29 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Right, you caught me before I could edit in 'unless theyre janitors or landscapers....and theres nothing wrong with being one of those either! Everyones not a brilliant future scientist...and if youre having to take out a FULL loan to get into college, then maybe you dont belong there in the first place!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:40 | Link to Comment Incubus
Incubus's picture

The smarter one is the one who abstains from the delusions of a progressive society. You parade around on your paper degree?  Most of the people with those paper degrees are incredibly ignorant:  they are institutionalized--heavily conditioned--zombies. 

 

You see, my boy, it takes a certain degree of myopia to even be motivated to advance in a system of clowns. 

There are brilliant people out there that don't jump through hoops for distinction from other people; this entire system only stifles the best in people.  What you see as the "best" are only the fools who can't see the forest for the trees.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:24 | Link to Comment eurogold
eurogold's picture

You are so right! And then they get their degree in something that has no future or job prospects.

Go to a Starbucks or a Barnes and Noble to see where their degree has brought them. Only by that time they are in debt up to their eyeballs and can never hope to repay it on 7.50 an hour.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:43 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Chuck it all and go south.
See my solution below.

CARPE DIEM!!!!!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:25 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Also, if theyre SO deserving of a college degree, then they should be on at least a HALF ride on a scholarship, right?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:33 | Link to Comment TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

Quite right!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:01 | Link to Comment RKDS
RKDS's picture

Look into the requirements for scholarships some time.  It's more like getting what people say getting a government is like.  Black, woman, left-handed, sports, etc.  Difficult for alot of students to qualify for any of it.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:56 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Uh, yeaaaa I know a little about 'requirements for scholarships'...I GOT ONE! And all it took was straight A's in high school. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:34 | Link to Comment ToddGak
ToddGak's picture

There isn't really any such thing as a scholarship based purely on academic performance anymore.  However if you can say you're 1/16 Native American you're pretty much golden.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:36 | Link to Comment TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

This is the real point that needs to be hit.

To be honest the whole idea of a central place of learning of everything seems really stupid and inefficent to me. I am one of the rare people who doesn't parrot the line that "liberal arts" (english, history and so on) aren't worth learning. Hell thats what people went to college for 2 hundred years ago. That was the purpose of college. I think it has its value no doubts, but its more of a secondary and shouldn't be a... uhm requirement for well anything of "practicality." That shit is only useful with connection to something else of practical knowledge. (Example, philosophical ethics of say.... construction and resource management).

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:03 | Link to Comment America- Some A...
America- Some Assembly Required's picture

No way I would have gotten inton Harvard 112 years ago  http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvardexam.pdf

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:20 | Link to Comment sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Of course, almost all, or all, of these student loans are SECURITIZED !!!

And we all should know what that means by this time:  securitization is the ultimate cost driver -- in student loans, mortage loans of every conceivable type, auto loans, credit card receivables, and thousands of other categories -- not least of which one would include health insurance and other types of insurance (can you spell ILS, insurance-linked securities??????).

The neverending debt peddling scam of the Transnational Capitalist Class, or the Global Bankster Cartel (which includes those oil guys).

They own and control the global virus: securitizations/credit derivatives (i.e., securitized debt).

They own the banks, insurance companies, clearinghouses and exchanges.

They own the means to create liquidity and the means to control credit (try for a global credit check through their Regulatory DataCorp's G.R.I.D. -- Global Regulatory Information Database).

'Nuff said.....

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:03 | Link to Comment Hurdy Gurdy Man
Hurdy Gurdy Man's picture

Are student loans creating inflationary tendencies in college pricing, kinda like the Thai government overpaying its rice farmers?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:27 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Hmmm well Tmfreak college wouldnt cost $30K a year if no one was agreeing to that loan amount either!

Also, if theyre really such brilliant little stars, then wheres their full boat scholastic scholarship?? I guess if youre going into college with a C average, you're going to have to PAY!

All this is a bunch of 'cry me a river' BS.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:42 | Link to Comment TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

I don't think anybody (At least from what i'm seeing) would argue about "brilliant little stars." I think that again plays into moronic schoolism such as the value of "grades."

I consider myself pretty damn smart, but I wasn't going to do a bunch of bullshit time wasting stuff to show it on paper.

 

Look, its one thing to say "you need to pay your debts" its another thing to lock somebody in to debt where it creates them as debt slaves. If you actually mean they should be required and locked into paying these debts (super inflated, for decades which who the fuck knows if they will be able to pay ANYTHING in 2 or 3 decades from now) then you should go ahead and accept that any and ALL debts incrued should not be bankruptable. The student loan situation by no stretch of the imagination plays into how lending works. The lender has to take a risk. This situation creates zero risk for lenders, and in general passes on the risks to tax payers. HMMMM sound familiar? International banking cartels sound familiar?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:22 | Link to Comment Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

International banking cartels sound familiar?

Check out the links on the top/first post. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:24 | Link to Comment Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

Merit based scholarships have been outlawed at the Ivey's and most other elite schools.  It is all "need based" now.

Put that in your conspiracy pipe and smoke it. :)

I am guessing most of the diverse needs based students in useless degrees end up working for the common good in government, primary education (government) or quasi goverment charity organizations.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:37 | Link to Comment Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Government employment is the black middle class. Remove government jobs and there is no black middle class.

When this mess started in 2007, I saw black people polled & interviewed who believed jobs came from government. At first I thought, they need to be educated how an economy works. Then I realized, for black people, that is where jobs come from. Go to any Army base or government paperwork shuffle office. They are half or more of the workers. That is reality. That is why the Democrats say the tea party is racist. Because if you cut government, you cut out the black middle class. Every black person in my neighborhood works for the government or is retired from the government. Period.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:30 | Link to Comment TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

I'm one of those suckers. I got a small mortgage worth of debt from a public university for a shitty worthless degree "check in the box."

This entire system is propped up by the fact that not just government positions, but also other jobs require bachelors degrees regardless of whether or not it actually adds any value. The entire education system and thought process around education in this country (and perhaps the world, fuck if i know) is absolutely asinine. We've basically outlawed people learning on the job, and we've created a belief that the only experts, and the only people who can "train" is the education system. Academic education is so over rated in this country and its value is so manipulated its just pathetic.

You say the people deserve what they get, and perhaps on some level I agree, but I have to disagree. It would be one thing if you had "easy credit" with no government backing. These companies that made bad loans would have long long since failed and you just wouldn't see it. The environment is possible purely through what is listed above. Government created debt slaves.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:44 | Link to Comment dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

Amen brother!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:55 | Link to Comment Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture

 

 

 

Remember, student debt is not dismissible by any means. Very sneaky and evil way to enslave the young people of our country for life – very, very disturbing.

 

Also check out http://www.mybudget360.com/  he talks about the student debt thing often.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:15 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Not to mention that the students' minds are enslaved by being subjected to indoctination by Marxist professors in many courses, Keynesian professors in others. Teach them that government is good. Bigger government is better. The government knows what's best for you. It's here to help you and protect you. 

Maybe what we need is an OccupyTheIvyLeague movement. Take the Harvard, Yale and Princeton alumni out of government and we'd all be better off.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:33 | Link to Comment weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Take your Geritol gramps.  There haven't been any 'Marxist' professors since the '60s. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 13:17 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Look how complete the brainwashing has become. They are all marxists. They dont believe in the legitimacy of private property. They truly believe the greatest ethic is to each according to need. From each according to ability.

That is marxist even if they use a different label now.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:33 | Link to Comment rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

"Look how complete the brainwashing has become."

"They" should not believe private property is ever held illegitimately.

"They" should believe the greatest ethic is to ignore need.

"They" should believe from each regardless of ability makes sense.

Let's conduct all public discourse by labels and slogans.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:05 | Link to Comment formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

 

There haven't been any 'Marxist' professors since the '60s.

 

I was working in higher ed in the 90s. There were plenty of them at that time. In many fields, they are the dominant force.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:14 | Link to Comment falun bong
falun bong's picture

I think we could use a little more Marxism, the system we have only benefits the top 5%. Oh wait...we do have more Marxism! Citi makes money and they keep it...Citi loses money and they go all Marxist on us...give the losses to the taxpayer.

Nice system.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment Mangadan
Mangadan's picture

"Teach them that government is good. Bigger government is better. The government knows what's best for you. It's here to help you and protect you"

That really isn't what most people who'd describe themselves as "Marxist" believe. I don't think that you've ever read any Marx.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:23 | Link to Comment pelican
pelican's picture

I often think of moving to Nepal. Let the banks find me there.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:10 | Link to Comment formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

Get your passport renewed first, before you default. Disclaimer: this is not intended as advice ; (.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:43 | Link to Comment Stevious
Stevious's picture

Good advice, but it won't help. In a few years the implant in your arm will set off an alarm even if your passport still is valid--if you are in default.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:02 | Link to Comment Fake Jim Quinn
Fake Jim Quinn's picture

The prevalence of easy money in the form of debt allowed education providers to ignore cost cutting and productivity, and so of course costs go up when you don't worry about your customer's ability to ever pay

The solution is to have schools that perform research and those that don't. Those that don't would see massive drops in education costs

The other solution is distance learning. But as you may have seen in CA, the unions are fighting that. They're getting contract stipulations specifically barring distance learning. As usual, all the interested parties want to dip their beaks -- the hell with the students

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:33 | Link to Comment pelican
pelican's picture

Distance learning? How about reading a few books on the topic.

Once a person could become a lawyer by just taking a test.  Now you have to go to law school and drop 60k.  I have a family member with a 90k Phd.  I make more cash then she does, with a state school BA.

However, the high school grad down the street who works for a brewery makes more then both of us.

It is all twisted and BS. Mankind is nothing but stupid monkeys with clothes.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:50 | Link to Comment Fake Jim Quinn
Fake Jim Quinn's picture

@Pelican -- I am very knowledgeable on the subject of distance learning and its applicability -- and the learning effects on K-20 in many contexts. Few can truthfully say that

As for your situation, I am sorry to hear that. And yes there is something to be said for your analogy

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:11 | Link to Comment krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

After a lifetime of having it drilled into their heads by society, family, etc. it's basically the 'norm'.  Even the states got into the rackets with college savings plans trumpeted as being needed by every parent to provide a 'proper' education for their kids. Of course those plans were great had tuition stayed at the same levels, now they probably won't pay for the books. 

I continually see BS degrees(and BS it is) for such ridiculous jobs that it boggles the mind. Saw one the other day for an entry-level desktop support position, changing out PC's and keyboards basically. Pay was fair but they wanted a BS degree in Computer Sciences or Business. Really? I'm unemployable by those standards because I got out of that racket not long after starting college.  I already had work experience and to avoid taking classes where I knew more than the instructors I had to pay full price for the course credits even though I never set foot in the class or used any of their resources. What? And the remainder of my classes were rehashes of high school 'filler' courses for which I was going to pay them full price again. That was it for my 'higher education'. Most of the people I know that went into college unable to spell, create a biz plan, or hold a job came out of college the EXACT same way. But they have a mortgage on a piece of paper that they now can use as a placemat to keep the mac and cheese or ramen noodles from getting on the 'spool' in the basement of mom and dad's house...

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:22 | Link to Comment Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

If people were unable to spell before the internet and texting they will be drooling illiterates now.

 

*Edit - What I meant to say was - Ppl bad splrs now frm txt more now thn b4.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:50 | Link to Comment Roy Bush
Roy Bush's picture

Not to mention that most of it is brainwashing and actually hinders critical thinking rather than aiding in it.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:59 | Link to Comment Sellzem
Sellzem's picture

Whenever the government and banks work together nothing good can come of it (unless of course, you're the banker or government official).

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:31 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

No-one deserves to be a slave.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:39 | Link to Comment aldousd
aldousd's picture

If you sign a paper saying "I am getting money in exchange for being a slave" then you deserve it. yes.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:45 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

No, you don't.  People who are inexperienced don't understand the implications, and further, you must remember that they have been LIED TO.  They are told that there are numerous high-paying jobs out there in their chosen profession.  Then they get there, and find there are NONE, or that they are of such low level that they can only pay thier bills.  The wording of the contract isn't nearly so clear, anyways, and worse than that, it is in legaleze, a language that only a few of those students would ever learn, and only AFTER they sign the contract.

You have no understanding of common or contract law.  You can't sign away your freedom.  Period.  

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:48 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Awwww they got TRICKED into their huge college loan? 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:15 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Yes they did.

It may be legal, but it is not nice to lie and take advantage of naive young people.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:21 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

What about their parents? Do they come into the picture anywhere here?

And if theyre so 'NIEVE' then maybe they have no BUSINESS BEING in college! And if theyre such brilliant little stars, they should be going on a SCHOLARSHIP, right?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:24 | Link to Comment Waffen
Waffen's picture

their parents are just as brainwashed as their kids.

look I am a libertarian and still you must accept that 95% of the people are completely ignorat sheep that dont have a clue and are lied to by media, schools, everyone.

how can you hold people that are completely ignorant accountable? You cant.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:31 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yea everyones brainwashed and all...my point is its not ME who is going to pay back their little fuktard kids student loan!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:41 | Link to Comment Waffen
Waffen's picture

Ofcourse you shouldnt have to pay. Make the banks, government take the losses.. Its all just benny bucks anyhow.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:32 | Link to Comment Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

their parents are just as brainwashed as their kids.

There's this illusion that higher-paying jobs are out there after graduating with a BS or BA.

It's true for some, but false for most.

Most people have no marketable skills, most people can't fixed problems in an America that where +10% speaks Spanish, are illegal, are third world people, etc.

The country's demographics have changed so substantially and most graduates think they can offer companies solutions despite this MASSIVE demographic shift.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:27 | Link to Comment Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Parents?  What about the Adults that want to change a careers?  Here is a video and about 8:30 in a woman who went back to school for a dental degree is having a difficult time making ends meet even after getting her degree and job.  It's from the "inflation association" so if you can't stand them don't watch it.

College Conspiracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE&feature=player_embedded

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:32 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yea well....times are tough all over! 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 12:27 | Link to Comment RKDS
RKDS's picture

For crying out loud, you can't even spell the word "naive" right in response to a post that contains it and you presume to lecture others about college, education, and legal contracts?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:24 | Link to Comment i-dog
i-dog's picture

"Americans are not a source of much intelligence."  ... Stansfield Turner, former Director of CIA

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:26 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

So you are saying that if you make a loan to a bum and he (predictably) doesn't pay it back, you have a right to pursue him for repayment until he is dead?  How about YOU TAKE SOME FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY for not doing your own god damn due diligence, and relying on the fucking government to make you whole?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:00 | Link to Comment Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

A. If you "don't understand the implications" of what you are signing, don't do it nor expect me to pay for your lack of understanding. Very tired of everyone being a victim.

B. Specifically, who told the typical state university loan applicant "there are numerous high-paying jobs out there?"  Written evidence would be great.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 14:49 | Link to Comment Stevious
Stevious's picture

Sure you can, today it's debtor's prison with a twist.  Do a search for keywords: "studen loans suicide" and see.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:26 | Link to Comment lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

our young people were targeted as a group by the U.S. Government & the financial sector.     decisions were made at the highest levels to lure into debt the younger generation.

Remember what Dr. Faber says,   " when you offer the people cheap money, they're going to take it."      I'm calling it fraudulent inducement.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 09:53 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I disagree tmosely, most people DO deserve being the slaves they are! 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 10:29 | Link to Comment Waffen
Waffen's picture

dupe sorry

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